#i want group discussion!

[existencebringsonlypain]

I may have posted about this before, but I don't understand the whole proshipper/anti debate. As far as I understand, I'm on the side of proshippers (i think fiction is fiction and doesn't have to reflect reality. because it's fiction.), but what I don't get is why there's such a clear defined binary, and why there's such animosity between the two. It's just a difference in opinion, like any other, isn't it? I understand that either group can "take it too far" (though i dont really get how proshippers could be TOO okay with problematic ships). but i really think either viewpoint is fine to a degree, they both have logic behind them, and it's just a matter of preference, isn't it?

#what i think i'm getting about why proshippers dislike antis so much is the restrictiveness? #but i dont. i doubt antis really want. like. any problematic relationship to either be eradicated or punished. #i'm willing to guess it's closer to “i don't want relationships that have issues + the narrative doesn't provide anything to challenge them #for me i think that's just kinda uninteresting storytelling but it shouldn't be BANNED. yk. #the idea of fiction is getting to see the world from another perspective. #and some perspectives are fucked up. that's just a fact. in fact it's often more fun to read fiction from someone who's “morally wrong” #because you get to see how they tie themself into knots to justify their actions. #but i completely get why someone might not like that. sometimes it's difficult to read a story where the pov is an asshole. #so just don't read it! it doesn't have to be a big deal! i dont get it #existenceunrelateds #antis #proship #proshipper #antiship #antishipper #proshippers please interact #antis please interact #i want group discussion!

[femmespoiled]

I kind of wish we could talk about racism in the community (rampant occurrence) without getting sidetracked, because it comes from all sides. I made a post about it and about the straight up fetishization we go through before and it blew up but to this day, I don't know the answer to this problem, aside from doing the work to become antiracist, which is constant work, not just "oh I'm now antiracist".

As far as white people are concerned there isn't one group better than the other, all of you have work to do, I don't care if you're lesbian, bi, trans etc, if you're white, you're privileged.

It doesn't make one group any less racist to say "what about this other group instead?"

As a person of colour I have a hard time feeling safe around any white person, because I don't know them, I don't know how they're going to act and I have my own experiences with all groups, really don't think that one is better than the other.

#this is such a tiring discussion #random stuff #i don't care about the comparisons #and it feels disingenuous to use racism to catch attention to the topic you seem to actually want to talk about #it's a white people discussion. not a specific white people group #let's bring them all to the table and discuss because none of you are excused #dont use racism as your attention grabber of the day #b discusses racism

[volitioncheck]

does near every single post-canon DE fic out there need to be tagged ‘Sober Harry Du Bois’? i’m getting so tired of it.

do i expect every single piece of fan content to have to fully delve into the often-depressing always-complex topic of addiction? not really. sometimes you just want to write/read a silly fluffy romance one-shot, whatever. i get it. but i think my issue is specifically with the fact that for nearly every sillyfluffy au out there, there almost must be a ‘sober harry du bois’ tag. and it does feel very slapped-on more often than not.

i think to me it is an unconscious statement that nothing *good* can ever happen to harry du bois until he is completely and permanently sober. before solving the next big case, he has to be sober. before quitting the force, he has to be sober. before falling in love with kim, he has to be sober. before accomplishing anything, starting any sort of recovery, making any life improvement, he must first be sober.

sobriety as a goal, as a journey, and honestly as a concept in of itself is not as cut and dry as so many people think it is. and i think it would serve a lot of people well if they did some introspection on the implications of how nearly every single post-canon fic that isn’t dealing directly with harry’s addiction have him as completely sober instead.

if the plot of the fic isn’t going to touch directly on harry’s substance use (and again, i’m not demanding that every single fic should), why does that mean that sober!harry must be the default?

i think i am just tired of reading a casefic, a smutty one-shot, a fantasy au, whatever, where it almost seems that before getting on with the plot, the author feels obligated to first assure us that the harry we’re reading about is a Sober Harry. it’s established with a couple lines in the exposition, probably about his improved appearance, a tag up top, and then never brought up again; a checkmarked box. like the societal image of An Addict has completely prevented people from being able to imagine a person just, continuing to live life, while still struggling with addiction.

life happens, with all of its backslides and achievements, mundanity and changes, to people with drug addictions just as much as people who don’t. is a post-canon harry who isn’t sober not worth writing about?

i think so. i think the game we all played thinks so too. in fact i think that sentiment is woven into the game’s very core. i just wish i saw that reflected in our fan content more.

#i really hope my point is understandable in that it isn’t that i think that stories where harry *does* become sober aren’t also valuable. #or that i want every post-canon harry to *not* be sober. #but rather questioning why there seems to be a subconcious necessity for harry to be sober to have kind things happen to him. #disco elysium #harry du bois #also obligatory because i am putting this in the main tag: #this isn’t a callout or vague on any one person/creator/group of people in particular #it’s more of a prompt to discussion on a very broad trend #one informed by insidious biases that live in all of us because we live in a society etc #that none of us are immune to but all of us have a responsibility to acknowledge #if there is goal to this post it’s to provoke introspection. not individual attacks #anyways i love quietly consuming fan content until something annoys me enough to make my own post about it #i do wish i Participated in fan communities more tbh especially this one i’m just shy lol #most of the time. #me talking

[mxtxfanatic]

Luo Binghe really was entirely too forgiving about the whole abyss thing. Y’all talk about how the peak lords must have felt going through hell and high water for Shen Qingqiu, just for the man to still end up with Luo Binghe? Imagine if Luo Binghe had friends and they knew exactly what Shen Qingqiu had done to Luo Binghe over all those years 😬

#svsss #anyways it still bothers me how the entire sect treat lbh #despite KNOWING sqq abused lbh even if they don’t know about the abyss #like imagine if lbh was your friend telling you about all this #and ending the story with ‘and i still want to marry him 🥺’ #i’d be sending over every ‘how to know you are in an abusive relationship’ text i could find! #we would be discussing how low your self-esteem has to be to accept such treatment! #like this is absolutely wild! #(what’s even wilder is sqq also still tryna protect lbh while laboring under the assumption that lbh was destined to be a tyrant) #‘as long as he’s happy’ headass #I imagine that if both groups weren’t convinced that their friend’s partner was one wrong move away from putting their friend in a coffin #they’d have much to lament about together

[uncanny-tranny]

I think there's this idea of privilege that people have where if you are privileged, you become a bad person, and the more privilege you possess, the worse of a person you are, like privlege is a nuclear bomb warehouse that you can add stock into.

This is an incomplete outlook on privilege because it places blame on individuals with privilege rather than the systems which give certain people privilege, while at the same time ignoring others to their detriment.

A cis person isn't bad because they have the privilege of not being trans. The system in place which prioritize cis voices, opinions, bodies, and, ultimately, cis lives over trans ones is bad. These are important distinctions because something like trans liberation will not be a reality if we don't dismantle the system which places trans people as lesser.

#privilege #trans #transgender #lgbt #lgbtq #ftm #mtf #nonbinary #this applies to much more than just trans vs cis #and perhaps my outlook is coming from a privileged point of view. but i can't help but wonder if the way *some* people approach this... #...topic would even be conducive #this post isn't directed at a person or group by the way and i'm not wanting to start heated arguments #this is just Some Guy's opinion about the ways in which i have seen these discussions happen #i don't think anybody is a Bad Person simply for how they express being an individual who isn't thought about in society #it's HARD knowing your government and society doesn't care about you and i totally understand where these feelings come from. i just... #...i just think maybe there is a better way to approach this where everybody can be seen and listened to #just a quick post where i shoot a thought out at break-neck speed roght as i think of words

[wolfgirlfloof]

Something I appreciate about Hortus de Escapismo is how it portrays the Laterans and non-Laterans, especially in contrast to each other. Guide Ahead already gave us the angel ethnostate vs multi-racial heretics, which made for a pretty effective if blatant commentary on Laterano. And while it might seem Hortus is kind of repeating the same formula, I think it's got something subtler going on with interesting implications.

On one side we have the abbey's inhabitants: sankta, sarkaz and all other races--hell, even a seaborn for a moment. Are there cracks here and there? Of course, that's a whole plot point. But it can't be denied there is genuine camaraderie and self-sacrifice going on between these people who are simply trying to survive together (which is what makes those cracks all the more volatile).

Contrast this with the Laterans, who are dysfunctional as hell. Lemuen, Oren, Richele, and Spuria; I can't say I fully parsed everything happening between them on a moment-to-moment basis, but it was overall apparent that none of these people trust each other. Even though they're friends and classmates and colleagues, even though they're working for the good of the same state, even though they're sankta who can literally read each other's minds. There's just this constant mess of cahoots and conspiracy and treachery and bitter friction, and it takes the threat of an Innsmouth-Jonestown crossover event to get them to finally work together.

I thought it was a nice way to show more of Laterano's flaws. It's one of their core themes that they aren't as great as they say they are, but you'd think they would, at the least, have blessed harmony thanks to their literal hivemind. But evidently that isn't true either. And again, these are agents at the highest levels of the government. If they're this dysfunctional, what does that say for Laterano as a whole?

Which leads me into thinking about what the future of Laterano might have in store. I've seen some folks point out how these events have these greatly compelling premises that don't actually resolve any of the issues they bring up. Laterano only remains Laterano. And this is true! But I think it's intentional, setting up a slow burn of a regional conflict. The Lateran state is holding together, the status quo remains unchanged, the Law is content. But for how much longer? Guiding Ahead introduced us to the divide in Laterano on a broad level, the state vs heretics. Hortus de Escapismo shows the cracks within the state, narrowing in on individuals who nominally should be on the same side but aren't. The next logical narrative step would be seeing the state finally cracking apart from whatever looming danger the Law sainted Federico to deal with.

Some sort of schism, perhaps; that seems like the sort of existential threat that would directly threaten the Law's directive of preserving the Sankta. Law's awareness of it would also imply it's an internal threat, something festering in the hearts and minds of Sankta and thus one It's able to sense (at least that's what makes sense to me. We don't actually know how the Law works, so it could very well just have random magic prophetic abilities). And especially with the constant background pressure of trying to legitimize their Summit of Nations, what better way to drive that issue to the forefront by throwing Laterano into utter political chaos?

#arknights #a genuine schism would probably result in. so many fallen huh. would be interesting seeing laterano's community struggle with that #maybe the threat has something to do with the iberian church and seaborn? considering those were elements that appeared in hortus #and they were discussing a potential reconciliation between laterano and iberia too. reads like setup to me. #reaching out to iberia would be ripe for a widescale collision of ideologies that could lead to another schism #and for iberia it'd also be thematically relevant given their other estranged relationship w another glorious near mythical country #also i want to see the sankta face the seaborn. they're not so different if you think about it. #precursor tech hiveminds dedicated to the group's survival. one is hyperadaptive and ever spreading the other is conservative and insular. #so the ideological threat of a schism and the physical threat of the seaborn #...or maybe also the ideological threat of seaborn? they have their own church too after all #PAPAL SCHISM ARKNIGHTS EDITION. 3 POPES 3 POPES. LATERANO IBERIA WE MANY #oh uh and again a schism would result in so many fallen which could tie in the whole. yknow. thousand year race war w the sarkaz. #that's kinda super duper really important for laterano's themes #sorry i'm just writing a whole other post in these tags :P

[poeticsandaliens]

Honestly... I fucking love the romance in TMA. It made me let my guard down, even though I knew I shouldn't. The tenderness of it made the horror more visceral. And the ending so much more heart-wrenching because despite the fact that these two people have changed so much since we met them - enough to love each other - they're ruined by the same human flaws they've had since the outset. That Jon's betrayal isn't a descent into madness; it's just the guilt-ridden control freak that he's been since the very first episode. The flawed human that we've all come to love.

It's not perfect, but I think it enacts a similar technique to what Phoebe Waller-Bridge describes in her work (particularly Fleabag). That she uses the comedy to get her audience's guard down so that when the drama comes crashing in, we bear the full weight of it. The romance made me a more vulnerable audience, and I think the open ending felt both more hopeful and more tragic than if we'd never been given that tenderness to begin with.

I think... if I'd gotten balls-to-the-wall full-send avatar Jon, or a total descent into madness, I would have felt spared.

#the magnus archives #tma #tma spoilers #jon sims #I know throwing my hat into a discussion is risky #But my entire job now is to have Opinions about Texts and I just wanted to scream into the void about this one for a little while #before returning to my academic hovel #I don't participate much in fandom discourse anymore b/c I struggle with the whole in-group/out-group dynamic #that often accompanies a defined online fandom #but I do love me some Conversing About Texts

[exvangelical]

while everyone has the right to raise their child with the ethics they so desire, i do think it’s hilarious when xtians INSIST they aren’t indoctrinating or brainwashing their kids but also refuse to put them in public school (or even private xtian school), only socialize them within xtian circles like youth group or their church’s homeschool co-op, and rigorously vet any secular media so their kids doesn’t “reject the faith.” like uh. if your faith is so weak you have to hide your kids away from anybody on the outside so they never even think to question it…….. it doesn’t exactly sound legit

#text #like god forbid i ever have kids but if i did and they wanted to go to church i’d probably let them #if for no other reason just to show them how boring it is 9/10 lol #like if their friend invited them to youth group i’d be like ‘listen dude if you want to go you can #but it’s mostly just gonna be some out of touch conservative trying to guilt you for being a human being’ #‘like you might get to play a game or have snacks. maybe. depending in how cool the youth pastor is.’ #and if they did go we’d just have a conversation later about what they learned and we could discuss it critically #i would never intentionally isolate my child (especially older kids and teenagers) from opposing viewpoints #i would just hope i taught them enough critical thinking to not fall for emotional manipulation #ex christian #religious trauma

[mirakurutaimu]

no one word is gonna encompass everyone’s experiences. quit freakin out about meaningless labels u dumbasses

#saw some brief discussion of the bi vs pan thing in my discord server earlier and my first reactio nwas #you guys are dumbasses #quit the fuckin infighting brew. just be what you wanna be. who fuckin cares #like who you wanna like. call yourself what you want. who cares. #if you try to police the usage of arbitrary ethereal terms to describe one's attraction to particular gender identities #which is in of itself an arbitrary #ethereal concept #newsflash dumbass! you are a fucking dumbass! #for a group of peoples against policing #us lgbtq+ folk seem to salivate and pounce at the opportunity to police one another #is it so hard to just chill the fuck out and let people live their lives #kinda why i stopped using labels tbh. i don't fucking care about all the stupid baggage and shit that comes with them

[spale-vosver]

exvangelicals/exmos who haven't deconstructed their cultural Christianity when you politely ask them not to shut down every discussion about (any) religion because of their specific trauma:

(Goyim can interact but do not clown, more info in the tags)

#ftr i also have christian trauma #i fell in with a very conservative catholic group and was pretty badly traumatized by them #accepting that i'm jewish and going through the conversion process that I've always wanted to #is part of my healing #BUT SO IS BEING OPENLY IN LOVE WITH MY NEW FAITH #and it drives me fucking insane #when exvangelicals and exmos #ix-nay all discussion about ANY religion because of their specific trauma. reminds me of atheists/anti-theists #exvangelical #exmormon #cultural christianity

[commsroom]

i think there's something to be said about what exactly it means to be "non-human" in a story that is as much about humanity as wolf 359 is, where even the dear listeners are defined less by their own perspective and more by what they fail to understand and therefore reflect about the human perspective - to the point that they don't even have their own voices or faces or identities that aren't either given to them or taken from humans. they speak to humanity as a mirror.

even pryce and cutter are "very much humans" - pryce defined by her resentment of and desire to transcend its limitations, and cutter by his aspirations to redefine and create a "better" type of human - and find the idea that they might not be human laughable. it's interesting that they have distinctly transhumanist aspirations when their goal is the narrative opposite of common science fiction fears: that we will expand the definition of humanity so much that we'll lose whatever it is that makes us human. pryce and cutter's transhumanism narrows the definition of humanity to the worthy and the useful, as defined by them; "there will still be a humanity; it'll just be our humanity."

in direct opposition to that, i think it's meaningful that the show instead expands the definition of humanity in ways that include lovelace and hera, who in another show with different themes might be considered (in the descriptive, non-moralistic sense) non-human. i will always make a point of saying that personhood and humanity are two often-related but meaningfully distinct concepts, especially when talking about sci-fi and fantasy. i am talking about humanity.

the question of how hera identifies, and what social pressures influence that, is a complicated one. i've talked about it before and i will talk about again. what's important for the purposes of this post is that i think the show considers her fundamentally human. think about her role in shut up and listen - consider jacobi's lion example and the concept of different paradigms - that even things that are close to humans, comparatively speaking, understand the world in different ways. whatever differences hera may have from the others, it's primarily in experience, not fundamental understanding. she shares their emotions, their concerns, their values, their thought patterns. she has an appreciation for music, which the show considers a hallmark of humanity. she fits within the framework of humanity as the show defines and is, in her own words, left feeling "uneasy" about how difficult it might be to communicate with beings who don't. and it's significant that this takes place in shut up and listen, of all episodes, specifically because the way she is clearly and unambiguously included in the show's understanding of what it means to be human highlights the ways she and lovelace are othered by eiffel's careless comments that suggest otherwise.

(i don't want to get too into these details for this particular post, but it's worth noting that hera will refer to 'humans' as a category, often when she is upset and feeling isolated, but has never said that she 'isn't human' - she has never been upset that people are treating her 'too' human. i've seen it said about the line "you need to get it through your heads that what goes for you doesn't always go for me", but that's a frustration related to ability and safety, not identity. far more often, she will refer to herself in 'human' terms - referring idiomatically to experiences or body parts etc. that she doesn't literally have - and is upset primarily with comments referring to her status as an AI. it does not diminish how being an AI influences her perspective and experience, but again, so much of that is in terms of ability that it feels almost inseparable from a discussion about disability.)

lovelace's humanity and hera's humanity are so interlinked and directly paralleled in the text that i think it's impossible to really argue one of them is "not" human without making implications about the other. in desperate measures, lovelace tells kepler he's "not human" and he responds "you're hilarious. on a multitude of levels." later, defending lovelace against kepler's repeated dehumanization, hera very pointedly uses the phrase "that woman." in out of the loop, hera says she's never met anyone who "worked so hard at being inhuman" as jacobi, who says "what do you know about being human?" hera very emphatically responds, "i know plenty." later, defending hera against jacobi's repeated dehumanization, minkowski pointedly uses the phrase "that woman." with the care taken towards language and the way scenes and turns of phrase will parallel each other, that's not a coincidence. it might seem strange to have the "non-human" characters be the ones to express criticisms based on perceived "humanity" (something hera will do in other contexts as well - "we don't have funerals for animals" etc.) but in the broader context of the show, i think it's the point.

so, whether hera would ever call herself human, or be comfortable with that, is a complicated question for another time and depends on a lot of other factors. but wolf 359 is a show about humanity, it includes her within its definition of what it means to be human, and i wouldn't be comfortable definitively saying she's not human because of that. it can't be a neutral statement within the particular context of this show.

#wolf 359 #w359 #hera wolf 359 #there are so many concepts here that could be posts on their own #but this is already too long. sorry. #i think it's also worth noting how often i see the discussion of hera and humanity conflated with the discussion of #whether hera would want a body and while i think there's some degree of influence in that. if she has human experiences without human form #there's something uniquely isolating about that that could influence her decision. BUT. the form she exists or doesn't exist in #is separate from whether the show includes her within its 'in group' of humanity. which thematically it does. #hera can be considered equally human without ever having any type of physical form. that's part of expanding the definition #and i think that's an important distinction. #anyway sorry i'm kind of passionate about this it just. doesn't quite sit right with me i guess #in a lot of cases i think it's important to acknowledge that non-human characters have different experiences from human ones and #a lot of science fiction will (or should) decentralize the human experience. but it's core to the themes of wolf 359. it's different. #i think hera is so interesting as a take on the 'human AI' character because. the mistake a lot of them make is having a character #'learn how to be human' and it feels patronizing. but hera is. a fundamentally human person who has been told she isn't #and internalized that. and i think that's much more complex and. well. human. i know she's just a fictional character but #i can't help but feel a little defensive sometimes #it's also part of a larger discussion but feeling inhuman is a not uncommon human experience. it is within those bounds

[communistkenobi]

I do genuinely enjoy pedantry and quibbling and disagreeing with fine-grained details of every sentence ever uttered as any good marxist does, the problem is that tumblr is a horrific platform to nurture that enjoyment on and turns all of us into grand dogmatists where any quibble is a sign of enemy infiltration

#I have two friends I deeply enjoy disagreeing with but there needs to be like a particular trust and intimacy in place first #like some random asshole replying to your post to be a pedant is not a scenario in which you’re having a fruitful discussion #again I think ‘nuance’ as a rhetoric device has a particularly poisonous mainstream applications on social media #where people want to be a devil to the details for either clowning on you or dismissing your entire point #maybe I just need to make a new blog actually lol. this is probably just a symptom of having too many people follow you #but in general like I don’t find social media to be a productive public square of any kind #you’re only going to get that in smaller groups or with people you have a prior established relationship with #I have found random people whose disagreements with me are genuinely productive but that is the exception that proves the norm #in my experience

[carpisuns]

gaining a new interest/joining a new fandom is always kind of intimidating it feels like there’s so much you’ve missed out on by not enjoying this thing before so you’re like GRAHHHH got to catch up so I can have peak enjoyment like all the Enjoying This Thing experts around here! which is so silly bc if you enjoy a thing you’re already there but. yknow

#like when I got into hockey I was like studying all the rules and terms and players and team history and stuff #so I could be able to talk with other fans and understand everything #and like when I got into ml and owl house it was like ooh gotta binge watch all the eps #gotta see what the fandom vibes are and read the good kush fics and find a group of friends to brainrot with #and now w zelda it’s like #woof #there are so many games spanning decades!!! and I only have a switch so I can’t even play most of them lol #and the lore is fascinating but sometimes convoluted and confusing lol #bro the timeline. help #it’s just a lot of info and stuff to consume djdjdk #and im brainrotting so hard so part of me wants to find a loz discord server or soemthing l #but I feel like i would not be able to be on equal footing discussion wise bc I have only played a few of the games #it’s cool tho i have one irl friend who’s very excited abt me getting into her fav series haha #and I’m enjoying seeing people’s art and stuff #and making my little doodles #ᕕ( ᐛ )ᕗ <- me having a good little time being bad at gaming and obsessed with a tragic blond boy yet AGAIN #mine

[ifindus]

Scotland: We should at least ask. Norway, what do you think?

Norway: No comment.

I don't know if anyone outside the UK or Norway has heard about this, but Orkney has been looking into other forms of govern and they suggested they become a territory of Norway, operating independently. The UK has since said that this is unacceptable and will NOT be happening regardless. The official Norwegian response was basically just "this is an internal affair, no comment".

#hetalia #aph norway #hws norway #hws scotland #aph scotland #scotnor #new political affairs concerning Scotland and Norway?? #yes pls #I just think this is really funny #I'm in a Orkney facebook group from back when I lived there #and seeing people discussing this has been entertaining #apparently they are unhappy with the ferry prices and that's why they want out #but also no one is serious about it I think #and a lot of complaining about expensive beer in Norway 🤔 #though some are “positive” - discussing the history and cultural heritage

[worldsofdreamers]

.

#ive been trying to not publicly discuss mess etc in recent months cause it is what it is #but it's important that i say this. love isn't less in silence. no one is owed a coming out narrative regardless of how long or how much #time you've spent here. it's their lives not ours #stunts are going to happen. dont fight people process in small groups #a boilerplate denial happens like clockwork around here and closets exist. #closeted people exist so treat them right. i know we love them and want whats right for them but it’s never been for us to decide how they #closet or navigate that closet. we don't get to decide. so stay or don't #just remember that love isn't less in silence and #extremely public facing places are seen by everyone including children so yk #put yourself in the closeted person's shoes for a second and maybe just be gentle

[fatalism-and-villainy]

More thoughts about the dynamic I talked about here:

It’s telling that the way Abigail engages with Hannibal re: Nick Boyle’s death is very different from the way she engages with Will about it (and by extension, that the way Hannibal engages with Will about GJH’s death is very different from how he engages with Abigail about Nick Boyle’s death).

That is to say, Hannibal’s initial, outward response to Abigail killing Nick Boyle is primarily disapproval - foregrounding what she’s most trying to conceal about herself, and positioning himself as a moral authority who’s making a considerable sacrifice to protect her:

Hannibal: This isn’t self-defense, Abigail. You butchered him. Abigail: I didn’t. Hannibal: They will see what you did. And they will see you as an accessory to the crimes of your father. Abigail: I wasn’t. Hannibal: I can help you, if you ask me to. At great risk to my career and my life. You have a choice. You can tell them you were defending yourself when you gutted this man. Or we can hide the body. (1.3)

Later, he changes tack and allows that Abigail did do the right thing and that self-defense is an excusable motive:

Abigail: You’re glad I killed him. Hannibal: What would be the alternative? That he kill you? (1.3)

And:

Abigail: In the dream, I wonder how I could live with myself, knowing what I did. Hannibal: And when you’re awake? Abigail: When I’m awake, I know I can live with myself. And I know I’ll just get used to what I did. Does that make me a sociopath? Hannibal: No. It makes you a survivor. (1.4)

This change in approach is partly by design, I think - his more condemnatory initial approach impresses on Abigail the worst possible interpretation of her actions (and hints at the fact that he can see through the front she’s putting up), in order to get her to trust him, and then gradually he starts to show qualified approval and emphasize her agency to move behind her father’s influence. And his emphasis on self-defense in their conversation at the end of Potage serves as a way of deflecting Abigail’s sharp inference that he might be a serial killer. But he consistently only approves of Abigail committing murder in utilitarian terms, rather than emphasizing any satisfaction Abigail might have gotten from it.

And the person who does validate that for her is, of course, Will, when they compare notes on killing her father vs. killing Nick Boyle:

Abigail: I thought there was something wrong with me, because I didn’t feel ugly when I killed Nick Boyle. I felt good. That’s why it was so easy to lie about it. Will: Like you didn’t do anything wrong. Abigail: Feel like you’d done something wrong when you killed my dad? Will: I felt terrified. And then… I felt powerful. Abigail: It felt good. To get to end it, to stop it all. (1.12)

They’re both nodding so vigorously by the end of that exchange, just fully understanding in that moment how the other is feeling. And significantly, Hannibal doesn’t set himself up as someone with whom she can unload those feelings on, or find that kind of understanding with! Obviously he doesn’t want to go mask-off about being a serial killer immediately, but he doesn’t even drop any hints with about the appeal of murder; and meanwhile with Will, where he’s got all his “it’s beautiful, in its own way” and “killing must feel good to God” and “not flesh and blood but light and air and colour” lines. Aside from his initial intimation that she had darker motives, his approach with Abigail is mostly affirming her best qualities, suggesting she’s not like her father and that she had no choice but to kill Nick Boyle. And Will ends up being the one to affirm Abigail’s darker qualities.

And, well - my sense of why Hannibal takes this approach is that he was hoping for exactly that. He wanted Abigail to go to Will with those feelings, to be drawn to Will because he offered a potential source of a specific kind of validation and understanding that she wasn’t getting from Hannibal - and thus, for Abigail to help draw out Will’s murderous impulses in turn. Just as he used the prospect of protecting Abigail to push Will’s sense of ethics a little bit farther out. They were both the bait, for each other.

#hannibal meta #abigail hobbs #hannibal lecter #will graham #hannibal #my meta #hannibal talk #there was some group chat discussion awhile back about how hannibal intended to make the murder family happen #before his hand was forced in putting will in prison #and while i'm sure he was playing it by ear #in terms of revealing himself and pushing the others into a place where they could accept him #i do think a lot of his plan relied on using abigail to bridge the gap between will's s1 ethics and what hannibal wanted for him