#game of thrones meta

[em-writes-stuff-sometimes]

Theory: The Connection Between Dragons and Valyrians in A Song of Ice and Fire

Okay, so this isn't a new theory by any means, but I'm into it and I wanted to record it somewhere so I could go back to it purely for my fanfiction writing purposes. I will be making reference to these ideas in my writing, so this isn't really anything more than an infodump for myself for what is essentially medieval smut masquerading as intellectualism.

The question on everyone's minds: why are Valyrians unique? What gives them the ability to ride dragons? Their appearance? Why the obsession with incest? And dragons - where did they come from? Why is there such a clear link between this subset of people and the occurrence of the giant winged firebreather?

I'm going to try to articulate my theory that ties some of the lingering questions together into a cohesive hypothesis. Stay tuned. Keep in mind, none of this is particularly profound or innovative, so please don't presume any motivation for this other than what I've explicitly stated; but I need a place to put it all or it'll keep swirling in my head.

Note: this commentary accepts and incorporates the show's decision to characterise Daenerys Targaryen as being immune to fire. Don't like, don't engage.

How might this theory be communicated in fanfiction?

The narratorial vehicle I'm using to at least partially convey this theory in-universe is Blood and Fire, a "fragmentary, anonymous, blood-soaked tome containing information about dragons", "sometimes called The Death of Dragons". It features in one of my chapters, in which my MC is gifted it by Daemon Targaryen - the ultimate intent is to have this reverted to the Citadel by the time Robert's Rebellion occurs. Though my MC will not understand the entirety of its contents, as I'm going to suggest that it's written in a proto-Valyrian language or thereabouts, what is going to be implied is information regarding the creation (and therefore destruction) of dragons.

The theory: centuries of magically-augmented atrocities in artificial selection

My theory is that ancient bloodmages conducted a series of magical experiments designed to create the ultimate supremacist society - to what end, I'm still fleshing out. I presume it'll be linked to the prophecy of the Prince Who Was Promised, and the imperative to begin constructing supernatural lineages that will contribute to the creation of the Azor Ahai figure. I may end up extrapolating on this at a later time. In regards to the experiments: I'm implying stuff like cannibalism, mutilation, bestiality, all sorts of fundamentally unnatural atrocities that are designed to subvert the natural order to use that power as a springboard for the genesis of new species.

Essentially, I posit that dragons are a cross between firewyrms and wyverns using blood magic; but in hand with this, Valyrian people are an artificial subspecies of human designed to preside over these draconic creatures, all in the name of building a civilisation with these creations at the spearhead.

I think it is likely that the first species interbreeding between firewyrms and wyverns were then mated to these Valyrian shepherds. I believe there were further interbreeding events from this common ancestor that streamlined into two distinct lineages; proto-dragons and proto-humanoid Valyrians. Of course, this involves a great deal of magic to MAKE happen, because I don't foresee these acts as being capable of producing fertile offspring in isolation. I think this might've been assisted by other rituals involving the aforementioned cannibalism, blood swapping (as in literally forcing draconic blood into human veins and vice versa etc.), and other atrocities. Crimes against nature require crimes against nature, and all that. Over time, the Valyrian humanoid became recognisably and functionally human, with notable elements in appearance that make them seem unearthly or otherworldly; concurrently, dragons are bred to be larger and larger, to be more responsive to commands, and such. It is also possible that further DNA was interchanged through other cross-breeding events to enhance certain draconic traits in the Valyrian humanoid, in line with the evolution of the 'modern' Valyrian dragon.

The geographical origin of dragons

I believe that these experiments were conducted firstly in the Shadow Lands of Asshai - explaining the existence of ancient dragon bones and eggs, or at least bones and eggs that appear of draconic ancestry - and then later moved in and around the Fourteen Flames, the "volcanic area" of the Valyrian peninsula. But of course, this gives rise to a potential discrepancy in historical data: namely, that dragons are said to have existed long before the origin of Valyria. I think this was the case, but that this doesn't necessarily refute the idea that dragons were a blood magic experiment planned concurrently with the creation of a dragonriding people.

Dragons feature in stories from the Age of Heroes, occurring from roughly 10,000+ years before Aegon's Conquest to anywhere between 6,000 and 2,000 years before the Conquest. I think that, owing to the lifespan of dragons and the degree of time it would take to produce a self-reproducing, self-sustaining, large enough specimen to 'complete' the experiment, it stands to reason that this blood magic project would have at least taken several thousand years to achieve, if not more. This isn't a hundred-year task; this is a long haul. It also stands to reason that specimens would have been released for 'testing' purposes, to see how they perform in the wild. This would perhaps explain how dragons are seen in Westeros, in Ib, and in Sothoryos - these may have been the proto-dragons created along the timeline of magical experimentation. Once released, it conceivably might have been difficult to have them returned, and so these proto-dragons were able to spread to other continents. I think these dragons would have been isolated events; as in, not the product of wild populations reproducing. At this stage, I believe this was not something the species would have been capable of. It is possible, though, that offshoot/s capable of reproduction might have unwittingly been created, resulting in a separate lineage loosely related to the deliberate construction of the Valyrian dragon.

Asshai seems to have the most concrete claim to the origin of dragons out of all creation myths; ancient eggs and bones are present in this land. The Asshai creation myth even supports my suppositions here, as it is claimed that "an unnamed people first tamed these dragons, brought them to Valyria, and taught the Valyrians their arts before departing from the annals of history". It is possible this is a reinterpretation of the notion that bloodmages begun their experiments here and relocated to Valyria later on.

Given the historical anecdotes made of wyverns, it is likely that procuring wyvern stock was not an impossible task for continental Essos. However, firewyrms are said to have originated specifically at the site of the Fourteen Flames, perhaps serving as an explanation as to why experimentation was ultimately shifted here. Furthermore, it seems possible that ancient bloodmages may have harnessed the fire from the volcanic chain to fuel and amplify their dragon creations, hence the movement. It may even be likely that the Fourteen Flames are a source of magical power in and of itself, given that it is noted in-universe by GRRM that there is something otherworldly and strange about them. It seems likely that the fires from this volcanic region were used to fuel the spells and rituals that created dragons and early Valyrians. Fire and blood.

When experimentation was finally complete and two races prepared to act out what may have been a deliberately crafted 'origin', the Valyrian peninsula would have been perceived as the best bet based on magical properties of the site and convenience. And thus came the immortal tale of how the Valyrians, "originally a community of shepherds", "discovered dragons" and "tamed the mighty beasts" before "establishing the city of Valyria and becoming skilled in both magic and metallurgy." The Valyrians even "told tales of themselves that claimed they were descended from dragons, and were kin to the ones they now controlled", further suggesting that this theory holds weight.

Why would this theory hold validity?

Again, I'm leaning into a tie with the Azor Ahai prophecy. I'm not sure how specifically, but that'll come in time I suppose. I may as well assume that there might have been existing political tensions with ancient civilisations, impelling a subset of bloodmages to take matters into their own hands and attempt to engineer an overthrowal effort. They might have even just decided "fuck it, let's see what we can do in the name of magic and science." It is even possible they were attempting to engineer some kind of great good or evil to appease a higher power; i.e. a desire to satisfy a benevolent or evil god for the purposes of religious devotion.

What world-building benefits does this have?

It serves as an explanation as to why some Targaryens in the showverse are fireproof. Namely, Daenerys Targaryen. If dragon genetics are in Valyrian ancestry - dragons being firebreathing and thus necessarily immune to flame - then it stands to reason that this particular trait expresses itself in the human bloodline.

It addresses the emphasis on Valyrian blood being a prerequisite to innate dragon-riding ability, save for magical intervention i.e. the Dragonbinder horn. Valyrians have shared DNA tied by blood magic and likely a ritualistic breeding of genes that call for a dragon's obedience to their humanoid overlords.

It answers how some Targaryen fetuses are birthed possessing dragon-like features, e.g. the scaled bodies or presence of wings. There is latent dragon DNA in Valyrians, and also possibly the expression of the abominable nature inherent to their bloodline.

It supports the existing preoccupation with incest (likely simply an imperative to keep Valyrian breeding strictly within dragon-riding populations before the Doom) in the Targaryen line. The bloodline must keep a large enough quota of dragon DNA to prevent it from being bred out, necessary for dominion over the dragons.

Dragons are intelligent creatures that can understand commands given to them. If human DNA is present, this helps account for these qualities.

Implications for the readers

There is a discomfort at play here, namely in that discussions of selective breeding and eugenics imply that there is an element of superiority in people of Valyrian descent. I too am uncomfortable with the idea that the ability to master a dragon requires belonging to a specific group of people in order to succeed at this. Assigning someone's ability to perform any action to an inherited quality rather than a practiced skill or individual determination goes against pretty much everything I and others believe about the way the world works. Essentially, this theory largely suggests that success is earned based on bloodline or connection rather than personal merit. And I do agree that this is a valid conclusion to make. But I would like to interrogate what this therefore means in the larger narrative at play in ASOIAF.

Firstly, ASOIAF is a subversive text; it is written in a way that challenges traditional fantasy tropes and even our own values as readers. I would argue that the incorporation of a theory such as the above serves to add further to this trend established by GRRM, thereby enriching any inclusion of this in a fanmade derivative of his work (i.e. fanfiction).

Secondly - what happens to Valyrians? What happens to the dragons? Do they 'succeed'? In short, no. The Doom wipes out the vast majority of this civilisation, including the dragons. What is left dies out within a half-millenia following the Doom. The dangerous thing about believing in one's innate supremacy is that they forget how tenuous that hold on power and dominance is. That, I feel, is a central theme to this theory and to ASOIAF at large. The Targaryens were so entrenched in their own arrogance, their own perceptions of 'purity' and dominion, that they failed as dragon-riders, as rulers, as representatives of a dying people, as humans. There are barely any who perceive them as anything other than monsters by the time we begin Game of Thrones. Putting all this effort into reinforcing some sort of species superiority only makes the fall all the more ironic. It serves as a reminder that you can move heaven and earth to make power, but you won't keep it for power's sake. There was no point to any of it - making the dragons, making the Valyrians, any of it. It was doomed to fail from the start because people always forget that you cannot win on the basis of 'blood purity' or 'dynastic lineages'. You demonstrate why you deserve to be a leader.

Thirdly - Nettles. I want to speak on Nettles specifically, as she's a character in Fire & Blood I love a lot and I'm getting increasingly nervous about the way some people are going to react when she arrives in House of the Dragon. Many people are attracted to Nettles's character because she's a distinct diversion from the Valyrian supremacy narrative. I agree. I also happen to think that this diversion is more powerful if one considers that Nettles isn't entirely separate from this narrative, but that she works within it to fundamentally alter what it means. Nettles is described as a dragonseed; dragonseeds are explicitly identified as being of Valyrian descent. Nettles is also common-born, brown-skinned, and notably different from the other dragonseeds. She claims Sheepstealer, a vicious dragon unclaimable by any other Valyrian or dragonseed, and she does this because she is arguably in a position to understand him the best - she befriends him by bringing him a slaughtered sheep each morning, appealing to his instincts and satisfying his need for sustenance. As a girl who'd only ever experienced the worst of humanity growing up, I believe she sees Sheepstealer and the way he lashed out at the world and simply did what she wishes someone would've done for her. Given her food. Given her space. Given her appreciation, free of obligations or transaction. She claims Sheepstealer; she manages to have Daemon Targaryen to fall for her (I don't believe they were platonic at all, nor that she deliberately 'enticed' him - I think he was just INTO HER and I support it); she alone escapes the fate of most dragon-riders and dragons of the Dance. She does it all without relying on any innate Valyrian-ness, even if she may possess this ancestry. It's not why Sheepstealer truly yields to her. It's not why Daemon is in love with her. She is Valyrian in the barest sense of the word, and it is because she isn't entrenched in the lie of her own supremacy that she is ultimately the character who survives. Stories don't always have to have clear-cut messages; characters don't always have to just be one thing. Nettles can be Valyrian, and Nettles can also be the representation as to why you cannot buy into the narrative of Valyrian superiority.

Conclusion

So... yeah. Use this if you want. Disagree if you want. I think it solves a bunch of problems I'd been facing when it came to rationalising not only why Valyrian lineage is intrinsic to dragon-riding, but why Valyrian characters we encounter in ASOIAF are so engaged in the narrative that they are intrinsically better than everyone else. And ultimately, why this narrative is doomed to fail from the start.

In short: Valyrians and dragons are the result of blood magic that was used to create a common ancestor, from which two distinct populations were selectively bred for using all manner of magical augmentations - the human Valyrians and the dragons we encounter in a traditional sense in ASOIAF. This was done over many, many generations, and likely incorporated some of the worst atrocities we can conceptualise. It explains why Daenerys is fireproof in the show; why dragon-riding is exclusive to Valyrians save for magical intervention; why Targaryen fetuses are sometimes dragon-like; why incest is practiced in the Targaryen family; and why dragons are both extremely intelligent and specifically beholden to the authority of their Valyrian masters.

If you have any thoughts, feel free to interact. No hatred, please. Keep it civil. Thank you very much for reading!

#house of the dragon #hotd #game of thrones #a song of ice and fire #asoiaf #hotd writing resources #house of the dragon fanfiction #game of thrones fanfiction #a song of ice and fire fanfiction #asoiaf meta #a song of ice and fire meta #house of the dragon meta #game of thrones meta

[princeescaluswords]

And now for something a little different ...

I was thinking about my favorite shows, and I noticed a particular trope that connects them. I want to talk about it, because I think it's interesting, though I might be the only one. However, if you believe Game of Thrones was nothing but a misogynistic dudebro power fantasy and/or you think that Teen Wolf was nothing but shirtless young men and dub step, there is nothing in this post for you. To be fair, I have reservations about the writing of both shows, especially in the later seasons, but I also think a lot of the writing was deliberate, considered and worth examining.

I want to talk about The Good Man. (I use the male noun because I seldom, if ever, see this applied to female characters. That's another meta entirely.)

Eddard Stark is presented in the show as a good person. He is respected by his family, his peers, his vassals, and even his enemies. While he does make some serious mistakes (things would have gone differently if he had decided to investigate the deserter's claims in the first episode rather than simply dismissing them in a rush to execution), few viewers have claimed that good people must be without flaw. He has principles to which he is devoted, such as loyalty to his country and personal responsibility for those with power, e.g. "He who passes the sentence should swing the sword." He has compassion even for individuals like Joffrey.

Scott McCall is presented in his show as a good person. He is respected by his family, his peer, and even his enemies. While he does make some serious mistakes (things would have gone differently if he had refused to go with Stiles during Wolf Moon), few viewers have claimed that good people must be without flaw. He has principles to which he is devoted, such as the right for everyone to have a life and personal responsibility for those with power, e.g. "And you know this thing's gonna get out of control. That makes me responsible." He has compassion even for individuals like Peter Hale.

So why does Ned Stark die and Scott McCall survive? Of course, they appear in different stories existing in different genres, and Westeros is a little more brutal than twenty-first century Northern California, but I propose that there is a specific test that both narratives make of their Good Men, which Ned fails and Scott passes.

In Game of Thrones, this test occurs in The Kingsroad (1x02) and in Teen Wolf, this test occurs in Abomination (2x04).

We don't get to see Robert's Rebellion in the show, but we do get to hear a lot about it. Robert rides all the way to Winterfell because he is absolutely sure that the one person he can trust to help him hold his kingdom together is Ned. Ned doesn't want to leave Winterfell, but he is torn by his sense of responsibility to the kingdom and his personal loyalty to Robert. It's the suspicion of Jon Arryn's murder that pushes Ned into taking the position of Hand. Ned will discover the truth and if it is, bring the murdered to the King's Justice.

By the end of The Kingsroad, Ned should understand that there is no King's Justice, not anymore. The marriage between Robert and Cersei is a sham, Cersei is vindictive and cruel, Joffery a spoiled brat, but, most importantly, Robert is not the same friend he was twenty years ago. The death of Lady is an injustice, agreed to by Robert simply to buy himself some peace and quiet. The death of Micah is a greater injustice, one that doesn't even have a degree of dignity of being the result of a direct order. The Hound cut the butcher's boy down like he was chopping wood.

But Ned does nothing with this new knowledge. He sees the corruption and clings to his principles -- his responsibility to the realm and his personal loyalty -- that stand opposed to it, while not adjusting his behavior or expectations accordingly. This is the first time, but it's not the last: the realm's financial status, the useless tournament, the sending of assassins against Daenerys, Robert's gross behavior, etc. He will keep believing that the realm is worth defending as if it were twenty years ago and that his friend is still the same regardless of any experience to the contrary, and Ned will die for his refusal to change.

Note, I don't blame Ned for being tricked by Littlefinger, a childhood friend of his wife's, because I don't blame people for being deceived by liars, but there was plenty of evidence from which Ned could have learned he had to alter how he manifested his principles.

Which is why Scott survived and Ned didn't. Up until the end of Abomination, Scott keeps trying to work with Derek while maintaining his principles, which includes independence and saving lives. Yet, even after Stiles heroically held a paralyzed Derek in a pool for hours, even after Scott arrived and drove away the kanima, Derek demonstrates he is still deeply mistrustful of everyone (including himself), Derek demonstrates that lethal force is his go-to strategy ("When I find it, I'm going to kill it"), and that he is blinded by his hatred for the Argents. Note: I don't think there's anything wrong with Derek hating the Argents but there is a problem when he won't look past that anger for the greater good. If Derek had been willing to work with the Argents, it might have scuttled Gerard's plans. Then, Scott gets up close and personal with Gerard, which is painful and scary, but it does gives Scott something he can use against Gerard.

And here is the point: he doesn't share this with Derek, when he's tried to work with Derek in the past. Instead, he pretends to work with Gerard by infiltrating Derek's pack in order to be in a position where he can use the cancer against Gerard. Scott's principles still remains; he wants to resolve the conflict with as little death as possible. However, he changes how that principle manifests in his actions when it is clear that his previous method -- working openly and honestly with Derek -- not only isn't working, but it can't work.

To summarize, principles, the hallmarks of the Good Man, only work if they are used to guide the good person's reactions to the situation at hand. They don't work if they determine the good person's reactions. Ned's principles were set twenty years ago and remained static. Scott was willing to change how he achieved his desired result if his previous attempts weren't working. (As a digression, this is a rebuttal of Peter's insincere "shades of gray" criticism of Scott.) The comparison isn't flawless by any means, but I do think it's enlightening.

#scott mccall #eddard stark #teen wolf meta #game of thrones meta #scott mccall defense squad

[360degreesasthecrowflies]

Tbh we really should have had alarm bells about GoT ever since Daenerys kept her hair after being burnt...

The entire point of that incident was for her to take control over the masculinised culture by showing that she was something more than human, coming out bald and miraculously unscathed, but something alien, unexplainable and mysterious. Something you might not understand, but you wouldn’t want to get on the wrong side of. And then from that point on she continues to fuck with the gender archetypes of her adopted culture as her hair slowly regrows, being unquestionably a figure of immense inherited and personal power, yet defying and visually flaunting all unwritten and existing codes of how such a person should appear and carry themself. It’s also a parallel/foil/foreshadow of Cersei being against her will stripped and shaved as a form of humilation; Daenerys begins her story and road to queen without any of the Lannisters’ artifice, and only draws power from such a situation; no-one can hurt her with the later threat of it.

Meanwhile the Game of Thrones showrunners: hehe sexy nekkid blonde lady with long luxurious locks rustling in the wind  😈 No body hair though, we don’t want people to switch off!

#game of thrones meta #text post #daenerys #daenerys targaryen #the unburnt #powerful women #women in fantasy #women in sf #asoiaf #asoiaf meta #adaptation

[kinslayer-sapphire]

Why Tywin didn’t plot with the Tyrells to kill Joffrey!

Some people assume that Tywin plotted with Olenna and the Tyrells to kill Joffrey, make Tommen king, and scapegoat Tyrion.

Granted, it sounds like a smart plan and one with many benefits to Tywin such getting a puppet king and having his loathed dwarf son killed as a ��obvious” offender.

However, just because it’s obvious doesn’t necessarily imply that it’s true. In fact George R.R. Martin loves the unexpected and challenging expectations but not in the Dumb and Dumber way…

As much as Tywin thought of Joffrey as a foolish brat without the knowledge or aptitude for being King of Westeros. He did try to help Joffrey govern and learn as King. He even gave Joffrey lessons on how sometimes mercy against your enemies is beneficial.

Whether or not that Tywin like having Joffrey as king; he is still his grandson and son of Cersei . . . and Jaime as well. There is NO WAY Tywin would commit kingslaying and kinslaying against his OWN grandson when he refused to king-slay Aerys Targaryen, who molested and insulted his wife and refused to kin-slay Tyrion during his childhood who caused his wife death in childbirth.

Tywin might not have been the most faith man to the Faith of the Seven but kingslaying and kinslaying is a massive taboo and crime against the faith and gods that Tywin wouldn’t commit.

For all of Tywin faults, the man loves his legacy and family. It one of main reasons he didn’t assassinate Tytos and Tyrion despite his hatred of them for being lighthearted fools and manwhores that weaken his family name. Despite Tywin hatred of Tyrion he refused to let Lysa, Vale, and Riverlands get away with imprisoning Tyrion. I’m inclined to believe Tywin would be the same regarding Joffrey. Joffrey is his grandson, Cersei’s son, Jaime’s son and a pure-blooded Lannister. I can’t see Tywin being cool with the Tyrells poisoning his first-born grandson and first Lannister King in centuries because of his cruelties.

Tywin is a cruel man that massacred and genocided the Tarbecks and Reynes of Castamere for refusing to paid their debts to their Lord Paramount of the Westerlands and Head of House Lannister; his father. While Joffrey executing Lord Eddard was a ruthless, brutal, and brash decision. I believe Tywin could understand Joffrey’s fury and rage at Ned for trying to steal his “birthright” away for Stannis, a man that probably wants Cersei, Jaime, Joffrey, Myrcella, and Tommen heads on spikes for treason against the Crown and House Baratheon.

I believe that with time, experience, and tutelage. Tywin believes he could mold Joffrey’s cruelty and brutality into an effective sword rather than a brutish hammer for House Lannister. Considering that unlike Jaime he has a penchant for Power and Authority and not the physicals of being a dwarf like Tyrion or a female like Cersei. The difference between Tywin thoughts and treatment of Tyrion and Joffrey is that Tywin truly LOATHES Tyrion on a personal level over Joanna’s death in childbirth along with being a lustful drunkard dwarf that hinders Tywin’s and House Lannister image in bigoted Westerosi society. Tywin can handle Joffrey’s cruelty and ruthlessnesss just as he had previously with Aerys II and his own daughter Cersei. Seven Hells, Tywin is ruthless and cruel himself. He brutally murdered Reynes & Tarbecks along with Elia Martell and baby Aegon & toddler Rhaenys Targaryen. Tywin doesn’t want Joffrey to be a kind king but an effective and efficient king. Joffrey just need Tywin’s guidance and training just like Tommen did.

#asoiaf #agot #game of thrones #asoiaf meta #game of thrones meta #game of thrones headcanon #asoiaf headcanons #house lannister #house baratheon #house tyrell #tywin lannister #cersei lannister #jaime lannister #tyrion lannister #joffrey baratheon #myrcella baratheon #tommen baratheon #stannis baratheon #eddard stark #olenna redwyne #olenna tyrell

[obvious-captain-rogers]

Okay but my personal headcanon- which makes more sense to me than any other white-washing, kinda bullshit magic argument- for Aegon VI is that yes he has the Targaryen pale hair and lilac eyes, but he inherited his mother’s Dornish complexion

#headcanon #game of thrones #got #game of thrones meta #a song of ice and fire #asoiaf #a song of ice and fire meta #aegon vi targaryen #elia martell

[argentvive]

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/worldviews/wp/2016/04/24/the-ancient-persian-god-that-may-be-at-the-heart-of-game-of-thrones/

It’s easy to see how the firey victor would be Daenerys. An article from 2016 about the Zoroastrian roots of Azor Ahai

#game of thrones meta #a song of ice and fire meta #zoroastrianism #alchemy #daenerys targaryen

[iliyad]

The Problem of Baratheon Succession

I’ve seen a few posts and metas about this (such as this one from @goodqueenaly) but because my own take on it is from a different angle I thought I’d make this a separate post rather than an add-on to someone elses. 

I’ve always been fascinated by the ASOIAF worldbuilding, and one of my favourite topics is the laws and customs of Westeros. This post, however, is specifically tacking the issue of inheritance of the Iron Throne.

Inheritance in Westeros

Westerosi inheritance is complicated. There are exceptions to every rule and not everyone follows the same precedents or patterns. But generally, there are three forms of inheritance in Westeros:

Male-preference primogeniture: This is the form followed by most of Westeros, where a man’s children inherit in birth order, except daughters are counted behind the sons. Using House Stark as an example, their birth order goes “Robb, Sansa, Arya, Bran and Rickon”. In terms of inheritance, however, this order would instead be “Robb, Bran, Rickon, Sansa and Arya”. If Robb were to have a child, regardless of that child’s gender, they immediately jump to the front of the line—it’d then become “Robb, Robb’s child, Bran, Rickon, Sansa and Arya” even if Robb had a daughter. If all of them were to pre-decease Ned, succession then passes to his next eldest brother, which would be Benjen, and if he were to be unable to inherit (such as taking the Black) inheritance would then pass to Lyanna (if she were still alive) or any legitimate children of Lyanna’s (cough Jon cough).

Equal primogeniture: In this form of primogeniture, followed exclusively in Dorne, the eldest child inherits regardless of gender. In the books, Doran Martell’s three children are Arianne, Quentyn and Trystane in birth order, meaning Arianne is the one who will inherit rule of Dorne. Any of her children would subsequently be further in line than her brothers, too, regardless of their gender.

Royal primogeniture: This was caused almost entirely as a result of the Dance of the Dragons and the succession crisis caused by Viserys I Targaryen’s death between his two children, Rhaenyra and Aegon. Rhaenyra was Viserys’ only surviving child via his first wife, and subsequently officially designated as his heir prior to the birth of her half-brother Aegon by his second wife. Once Viserys died, despite Rhaenyra being the official heir to the Throne, Aegon was insistent that a younger brother always inherited before an older sister (such as in the case above with the Starks, where Bran and Rickon would inherit before Sansa or Arya). Following the conclusion of the civil war, the Targaryens adopted this modified form of primogeniture which placed all possible male heirs before possible female heirs in the line of succession. Applying this to the Starks instead, we would see “Robb, Robb’s child (if male), Bran, Rickon, Benjen, Jon, Lyanna, Sansa, Arya, Robb’s child (if female)” instead. All possible male heirs before any possible female heirs.

The Baratheon-Lannister Predicament

But what does this all look like if we take the current Baratheon succession at face-value?

Under the standard male-preference primogeniture, after Robert we would see “Joffrey, Tommen, Myrcella, Stannis, Shireen, Renly”. But this changes if we consider the rules of royal primogeniture as still applicable despite Robert’s Rebellion, and we instead have “Joffrey, Tommen, Stannis, Renly, Myrcella, Shireen”.

Of course, any of this is good for Cersei and Tywin, because regardless of where Myrcella falls in line there are still two Baratheon-Lannister men at the front of the line of succession to the Throne.

Westerosi or Targaryen Tradition?

First, I think it’s important to point out something which sometimes goes overlooked—Robert didn’t solely claim the Throne through his victory in the Rebellion. He claimed it, among the Lords of the rebellious faction, because of his bloodline.

His grandmother, Rhaelle, was a Targaryen and was in fact the sister of Aerys II. This makes Aerys his great-uncle, and Aerys’ children (Rhaegar, Viserys and Daenerys) his first cousins once removed. Despite removing the direct line of Targaryen succession from the Iron Throne, and overthrowing the House, Robert does still have a valid claim to the Throne.

Given that Robert’s claim to the Throne was supported (at least in lip service) by his blood relationship to the Targaryens and therefore its plausible to assume that the new Baratheon dynasty would function under the modified royal primogeniture rather than the standard male-preference observed by the majority of Westeros. It’s been some time since I read the books, but having recently re-watched the show, I remember several moments where it was made fairly clear that the assumption was that the Throne continued to follow this practice: Renly and Loras Tyrell had a conversation where they explicitly stated that the line of succession after Robert was “Joffrey, Tommen, Stannis, Renly”, skipping over both Myrcella and Shireen who both would have been ahead of Renly if there as an assumption that Robert intended to follow male-preference primogeniture instead. Septa Mordane also commented to Sansa, in relation to her betrothal to Joffrey, that if she only had daughters by him then Tommen would be ahead of them in the line of succession which would only be the case if they followed royal primogeniture.

So, canon material (at least, show!canon, which is tenuous) seems to follow that the Baratheon dynasty would continue to follow along with the Targaryen rules of inheritance for the Iron Throne. But in logic, I wouldn’t say that this is a guarantee.

Despite Robert’s claim to the Throne being borne out of his blood relation to the Targaryens, he himself is not of the main line of House Targaryen and was born and raised as a Baratheon of Westeros. The Baratheon’s themselves would have followed male-preference primogeniture the same as every other family in Westeros (excluding those from Dorne) and observed the traditions of such. The only reason for Renly, Loras, or Septa Mordane to assume that royal primogeniture was the order of succession to the Throne would be because of the Throne itself, and that royal primogeniture was the accepted norm, unless Robert made an explicit statement one way or the other because there’s otherwise no way of knowing because he had male children, and if we pretend that Stannis and Renly didn’t exist, the order of succession being “Joffrey, Tommen, Myrcella” would apply regardless of whether Robert intended to follow male-preference or royal primogeniture.

The Baratheon Experiment

Now, this is a thought process I’m well aware sits on the line between meta and pseudo-fanfiction, but just hear me out.

My intrigue into this aspect of Westeros was fuelled mostly by my rewatch of the show, and specifically Cersei’s discussions with Catelyn after Bran’s fall and subsequent injury. She explains to Catelyn that she once had a son who also died very young, and by her description of him, it’s clear that he was in fact a trueborn son of Cersei and Robert, having been born with Robert’s black hair.

I’m going to take a quick moment to mention that genetics fanatic me was thrilled when I first read the books and worked out that GRRM had basically come up with a functional medieval understanding of dominant and recessive genes. thrilled.

This differs from the books. In the books, Cersei did fall pregnant by Robert but she terminated the pregnancy before he was aware of it. In my mind, these are the same child—the show just decided to make him live but die young in an attempt to change perception of her character and to give her this moment with Catelyn. But either way, this poses a fascinating question.

Firstly, for said question, I’m rolling with the book insofar as we do not know which gender Cersei and Robert’s child would have been. This is so that I can play around with the inheritance laws more and also indicate precisely why it was important (or not...) for Cersei that the rumours around Joffrey & co.’s paternity was ignored.

Assuming that this child was born male, this naturally places them ahead of Joffrey and Tommen in the line of succession. Regardless of Cersei having children by Robert and Jaime, so long as she’s got an heir for Robert, it doesn’t really matter what “rumours” are battered around because there’s no crisis of succession if Robert dies. Their black-haired son inherits, and the wheel spins as normal. Even if the rumours were to be mentioned by Stannis or Renly themselves, they might be in a better position to go to Robert because they aren’t doing so as potential claimants to the Throne, but that very fact also makes Robert less likely to be concerned about the situation because his brothers are still firmly in line behind his son regardless of which tradition of primogeniture he decides to follow.

This would become more interesting—and unpredictable—if their child was born a girl, because Joffrey and Tommen would both still rank head of her in the line of succession whether royal primogeniture is followed or not. However, her mere existence would be a greater threat to Cersei and the Lannister hold on the Throne because of this exact fact. If anyone (using the previous example, Stannis and Renly) were to approach Robert with concern for the line of succession, Cersei and Robert’s indisputable child being a daughter causes serious issues for Robert. On one hand, dependent on the primogeniture preferred by the Baratheon dynasty, Stannis and Renly may not be able to be taken at face value because the potential impact of their claims would move them further ahead in the line to the Throne, and therefore this could cause conflict and potential charges of treason against them by Robert.

On the other hand, if Robert were to believe his brothers or be presented with clear evidence, Cersei and her family are at immediate risk. Cersei and Jaime’s actions (not only their relationship, but then having children and passing them off as legitimate heirs to the Throne) are tantamount to treason and Robert would likely have them all executed for such a serious crime as impacting the line of succession. This would give Cersei even more reason to arrange for an accident to befall Robert if she even suspected that he knew of events, which makes way for Joffrey’s coronation and any questions of his paternity or legitimacy would be swiftly ignored or considered dangerous to pose given the power of Cersei’s position (and Joffrey’s...behavioural issues) in this scenario.

This outcome also would be the one most impacted by Robert’s choice in primogeniture for the Throne and potentially force his hand towards reviving male-preference primogeniture if he had not already intended to do so. Under this form, his daughter with Cersei becomes the heir to the Throne and would then be followed by Stannis, Shireen and Renly. If he were following royal primogeniture, however, his daughter and only legitimate heir would be passed over in favour of Stannis and then Renly (then after Renly would come his daughter, followed by Shireen). The realities of this might very well push Robert into formally declaring the Crown’s return to male-preference primogeniture and a reversal of the Targaryen laws implemented as a result of the Dance of the Dragons.

If Robert didn’t want to do this, his only other options are to either find a new wife and hope they could conceive a male heir (in doing so, given the existence of an older half-sister, he would likely have to formally designate said son his heir or otherwise make clear acknowledgement of the Targaryen rule of royal primogeniture to prevent an outcome such as the civil war between Rhaenyra and Aegon) or legitimise one of his bastard sons, neither of which would have been overly timely or ideal.

#asoiaf meta #game of thrones meta #robert baratheon #cersei lannister #rhaenyra targaryen #stannis baratheon #renly baratheon #jaime lannister #aegon targaryen #and many other characters lol #this is around the length of the law assignment im not writing #which is. huh #anyway i had fun with this so i hope someone enjoys reading it lol

[hxmosuperior]

batman: death and the maidens // a storm of swords

#web weaving #batman meta #dc meta #asoiaf meta #game of thrones meta #batman #batman: death and the maidens #dc #nyssa raatko #catelyn stark #catelyn tully #nyssa al ghul #mothers #grief #dc comics #asoiaf #game of thrones

[daenerysstormborntargaryen]

"Jaime Lannister sends his regards."

What does this line mean? What are the implications, the message it is trying to send? Is it a better line than the changed one in the show?

These are questions I have been asking myself as of late. Initially, I wanted to explain why I liked the show's version better, but as I thought about what the book's version meant, I started to change my mind

To be honest, the reason why I liked the show's version better for so long was because I thought it was more impactful. By saying "The Lannisters send their regards" rather than just Jaime, it made the Lannisters seem like a unified front, a great House that is not to be fucked with and not just a singular great man. It would send the message that it is not the actions of a singular person but something that will set a precedent for the House as a whole when dealing with, ultimately, people getting in their way.

But then I started thinking about why Tywin would have them say Jaime specifically. I came to two major conclusions:

1) Tywin doesn't care that Jaime is a member of the Kingsguard let alone the Lord Commander, he still wants Jaime to inherit Casterly Rock. Cersei is the Queen, just the thing Tywin wanted her to be, thus he wants to keep her right where she is. Tyrion is the heir of Casterly Rock but Tywin would rather bring the Seven Hells upon Westeros than see Tyrion as the Lord of Casterly Rock. He has always seen Jaime as the heir, his heir. When he made his vows, Tywin was pissed as all hell, at Jaime, at Aerys, at everyone. But then Joffrey set the precedent that members Kingsguard don't have to serve for life with the dismissal of Baristan Selmy, thus opening up the path for Tywin to make his wishes come true.

Several time through the series, we see the song "The Rains of Castamere" used as a threat, a reminder to any and all of what Tywin Lannister is capable of. The ruthless destruction of Houses Reyne and Tarbeck solidifies Tywin's fearsome reputation and I believe the Red Wedding is meant to be Jaime's Castamere. By giving him the responsibility, Tywin is securing Jaime's legacy almost. Already Jaime is well-known for being one of the greatest swordsmen alive, but he needs to be more of a threat, more of a foreboding presence at the back of people's minds than just someone who is pretty handy with a sword. If people believe Jaime capable and willing to do something as horrible as the Red Wedding, what else is he willing to do to protect the realm (or just his family)?

However, similar to Castamere, the Red Wedding is a huge, huge, huge political mistake. It is not a show of power, of skill in battle, of cunning or wit. No, it's a demonstration of brutality. It says to everyone else that the Lannisters will do whatever they want in response to slights, minor or otherwise. The Red Wedding especially does this. Sure, you crushed the Northern rebellion and took out a huge threat to your power, congratulations. Now no one trusts you or respects you or will want to be by your side. They may fall in line out of fear, but fear can only hold people for so long and to such lengths. Tywin os still upset, to his dying day, of the perceived failings of his father. He hated how his bannerman laughed at him, hated how a "whore" wore his mother's jewels and clothing, hated the weakness he saw. But I would argue it is better to be underestimated yet respected than feared yet reviled. When the going gets tough, who will come to Lannister aid after this? After this violation of a sacred law, Guest Right, who would ever want to be on the side of Lannister?

2) This is more of a narrative reason, though I certainly believe Tywin may think similarly, but this line is also a twisting of the knife. Cat let Jaime go and everyone and their mother told her what a horrible idea it was. Now, it's come to bite her in the ass. Had she not released Jaime, I am not entirely sure the Red Wedding would have happened but that is a whole different discussion. Fact of the matter is, she did and now she has to watch her son be murdered in front of her. How could she not blame herself? How could she not blame the Lannisters for being cravens wholly lacking honor? How could she not blame the gods for their cruelty? This line is the cherry on top of the tragedy of the Starks.

While (iirc) Tywin did not know Catelyn was the one who let Jaime go, I believe he thinks he somehow escaped on his own, I do think he would also view it in the same way. As consequence of taking his son, and of letting him slip through their fingers, their lives are forfeit. Yes, when they rebelled their lives were forfeit to begin, but I think Jaime's capture pushed Tywin to such a drastic means of dealing with them.

At his core, Tywin is a petty, vindictive person who values getting his revenge more than actually doing what is best for the Lannister name. True, he may believe this is the best course of action, but that just goes to show what an emotionally-driven, lack of forethought moron Tywin truly is. He is not clever, he is cruel. Do not confuse the two. And, much like every other Lannister, Tywin seems to believe because the Targaryens conquered and kept the peace through fire and blood, he can do whatever violent acts he wishes and history will laud him for it, but he is not a Targaryen, it does not work the same way. Targaryens for centuries were viewed as closer to gods than men, Lannisters never were held in that esteem. All he is doing is dragging the Lannister name through the mud.

One of the things that makes Tywin Lannister notorious in Westeros is told about in the song "The Rains of Castamere," which details how Tywin brought about the end of House Reyne and House Tarbeck, serves several times as a reminder and threat of what Tywin Lannister is capable of ie complete ruthless brutality. It is intended to keep people in line and to keep their noses clean. I believe Tywin wanted to give Jaime a similar reputation.

#game of throne #asoiaf #a song of ice and fire #game of thrones meta #asoiaf meta #tywin lannister #jaime lannister #got meta #a song of ice and fire meta

[justadram]

How do you think a Christine de Pizan type figure would’ve been treated in westros?

Short answer is in my opinion a Christine de Pizan couldn't exist in Westeros, because I don't think the conditions are in place to create her.

Christine lives in the "medieval world" but the Renaissance is already underway in Italy at the time of her birth. She's educated by a scholarly father, which is what gives her the ability to become a professional writer, despite being a woman. Moreover, there exists an audience for her writing, which is also due to changing conditions in Europe. Widowed, she supported her family through her writing, sponsored by wealthy patrons, who were willing to buy her writing. Patronage was changing, and court members could read! and wanted to buy books! they had little libraries of their own! This is a real shift and relates to changing literacy rates and book binding.

I've talked about the high levels of literacy among the nobility in Westeros and how some of them are eager readers. But there is also rather bizarre apparent lack of non-noble literate people there, which would likely preclude Christine's education, even if there are those like Tyrion and Sam to read for pleasure. In high medieval Europe, the education of women, both noble and merchant class, really improved as fathers of wealth began to higher tutors for their sons and sometimes daughters too with the rise of universities and monastic and cathedral schools. By the late medieval era, boys and girls both are attending school in urban Italy, and that will only expand as literacy and the advent of the printing press comes about. Whereas, we don't seem to have an intellectual renaissance afoot in Westeros.

Also, the shows and GRRM seem pretty wedded to the idea that things were just like that in the medieval era, when it came to women. That's their supposed inspiration for the almost relentless violence against women, which is depicted, mostly without recourse. Most of world history post-Neolithic Revolution, is that of patriarchal societies--fact. However, it is not the case that women's existence in medieval Europe can be boiled down to accepted, expected violence. How does a woman ever come to a place of respect or prominence in a society built upon the kind of culture of constant violence against them we find in Westeros? I don't think they do. It's important to understand that the existence of queens or ladies doesn't mean equality for women or even any great respect for them in a feudal society, where vows bind you.

Now, Christine was a laywoman. However, before Christine ever rose to prominence, there was already a tradition in medieval Europe of influential, literate, educated women. Nuns! Convents actually offered women an opportunity for education, advancement, and authority well beyond what they could expect to exert as a wife and mother. Abbesses wielded great authority within their communities and without and could have access to great wealth.

St. Catherine of Siena is an example of how a religious woman could wield great influence even within the patriarchal hierarchy of the Catholic Church. Without her influence, the Avignon Papacy wouldn't have come to an end. Catherine was a female member of the Dominican Order, who rather adamantly preached for the pope to return to Rome. And he did. The most powerful man in Christendom did what a woman urged him to do! Then, as the Western Schism developed, she acted as a diplomat, penning letters to the princes of Europe and cardinals, urging them to support Pope Urban VI. And people took her seriously! And when she died calls for her to be canonized were loud.

Hildegard of Bingen is another example, an educated abbess, who authored a great deal, including medical text, and who predated Christine by hundreds of years. All of this is to say, Christine isn't an anomaly by any means, even if she's the first professional female author in Europe.

We've got the septas and the silent sisters in Westeros, and there are motherhouses, which we know precious little about. And while I'd like to say the hand that rocks the cradle rules the world sort of thing, historically, governesses occupied a rather precarious, vulnerable position in European households, easily impoverished and victims of the predation of men in the homes in which they were employed. Maybe septas are safer due to their religious background, but there isn't really any evidence that they exercise any great influence beyond their noble "classrooms" schooling the girls on the appropriate arts and learning.

Septas and septons exist on the council of the Most Devout, of course. There is that! But there's no evidence that this equality in the Faith extends to Westeros' society at large. Or that these women were producing any of the "histories" or songs or romances that nobles consume for entertainment or edification.

For all of these reasons, unfortunately, it's not just that I think Christine wouldn't be embraced in Westeros--I don't think she'd ever come to be there.

#meta monday #game of thrones meta #got meta #asoiaf meta

[it-happened-once-in-a-meme]

Game of Thrones Analysis/Things I Noticed & Theories Masterlist

Margaery Tyrell with Joffrey Baratheon & Homophobia (One of the Things I Dislike About the Show) 💀🏳️‍🌈

#game of thrones analysis #asoiaf analysis #game of thrones meta #asoiaf meta

[meanlikeachild]

oh nothing, just thinking about how Robb chose duty over love when he refused to trade Jamie for Sansa and Arya and got killed and how Jon chose love over duty when he was going to desert the night watch to go save his little sister from her abusive husband and he too got killed. Theres just no winning, whatever you chose.

#asoiaf #robb stark #jon snow #valyrianscrolls #asoiaf meta #when you play the game of thrones you win or you die there is no middle ground

[tell-them-the-north-remembers]

If there is one line I like to over-analyze in the ASoIAF books it is a rather famous thought that goes inside Cat's head before her death. As the steel is close to her throat Cat thinks "No, don’t, don’t cut my hair, Ned loves my hair." And this line and her entire inner monologue is absolutely heart-breaking but one thing I fixate on is the actual sentence itself.

"Ned loves my hair."

Anyone who has read the books knows that Cat holds contempt for the fact that except for Arya, she has failed to give Ned children who look like him. It is also one of the reasons she dislikes Jon so much, because the mother of Jon (who she assumes to be Ned's bastard son) has managed to give Ned a child that looks just like him while she, his lawfully wedded wife gave birth to five of his children only for four of them to come out looking exactly like her. Red hair, blue eyes. Unlike Jon (and Arya) who share Ned's dark hair and dark eyes.

And knowing that it is so interesting to me that Cat's last thought about Ned (and her last thought ever) was that Ned loves her hair.

Because Ned loved her, he loved her hair, he loved her the way she was. And every time he looked at Robb, Sansa, Bran and Rickon he saw the reflection of the woman he loved, while Cat was so upset that they weren't all reflections of the man she loved.

Every time Ned ran his fingers through their hair, he ran his fingers through the hair of the woman he loved. He never resented Cat for the fact that four of his children didn't look like him, he loved that they looked like their mother, again, the woman he loved so much. He loved that they had the same hair he loved on Cat, and judging by it being her last thought Cat also knew that Ned loved her hair (and the way she looked), whether she ever came to the realization that Ned was perfectly happy with the way their children looked at all, or if she realized after he was dead and it was too late, it is unclear. But all those years she beat herself up over nothing.

Ned loved her the way she was, Ned loved his children the way they were, when they looked like him and when they didn't. Because when they didn't look like him, they looked like the love of his life, his darling wife.

And if the books decide to go with R+L=J it also adds another layer to Cat and Ned's relationship. Because Jon's mother was always a woman she didn't know but was still competing with in her mind for Ned's love for all these years. Turns out she didn't even exist. Turns out she didn't need to feel inferior to the woman Ned loved enough to not even talk about with her, no need to feel bad about the fact that she was able to give Ned a child that looked like him while Cat "failed".

At the end of the day, all the voices in her head making her feel insecure in her marriage never needed to be there, because everything she thought of as a problem with her were not problems at all for Ned. He was perfectly happy with her and their children.

#asoiaf #a song of ice and fire #asoiaf meta #got #game of thrones #eddard stark #ned stark #catelyn stark #cat stark #catelyn tully #jon snow #robb stark #sansa stark #arya stark #bran stark #rickon stark #nedcat

[winterprince601]

the battle between the starks and the lannisters at the twins in got is actually a battle between the parenting of ned stark and tywin lannister.

this is the first battle to which tyrion brings his vale mountain clan soldiers and tywin places him in the left vanguard, essentially as a diversion/sacrifice. he does not share his strategy, as outlined above, with tyrion because he claims he doesn't 'trust' him. he assumes tyrion will fail and so when he succeeds, it upsets his plans.

he expects as little from robb stark, an untried boy. but what he doesn't understand is that ned has prepared his son for leadership. he hasn't hoarded his authority from him, desperate for dominance over everyone including his family. he's brought robb with him when he carried out his duties as a lord. he's educated him in battle strategy but more importantly, he has not glamorised war to him. robb is not eager to go plunging into battle and he's not battling for the sake of it. he knows the burden of his responsibility as a lord and he even knows when to delegate it: tywin's first shock was that the freys were in the stark host because robb trusted his mother to negotiate a hard bargain on his behalf. all of this contrasts tywin's neglect of tyrion and even his adulation of jaime's prowess - in the same chapter before the battle, he admonishes tyrion: "does the thought of facing the stark boy unman you, tyrion? your brother jamie would be eager to come to grips with him." ironically the kind of foolhardy behaviour he expects and criticises from robb, he encourages in jaime. this is because tywin doesn't actually want an heir to succeed his rule, he wants a shiny trophy to flatter it. only of course, tywin is not immortal. as this chapter foreshadows, his inability to parent or relinquish any power will be his undoing.

#grrm the author you are #how do you turn an actual battleground into an ideological battleground of fatherhood?? #freud will be having words #asoiaf #asoiaf meta #got #game of thrones #a song of ice and fire #tywin lannister #tyrion lannister #robb stark #ned stark #eddard stark #catelyn stark #house lannister

[lycorim]

I made this instead of doing actual stats homework you're welcome

#asoiaf #valyrianscrolls #cersei lannister #jaime lannister #tyrion lannister #house lannister #game of thrones #asoiaf meta #graphs #these are rough estimates btw #the x axis is poorly labeled and Tyrion should probably be a bit sharper of a hump #but whatever this took me ten mins and the joke isn’t worth more effort than that #I should clarify that these stats are *relative* to each other. if an actual person with morals were depicted they would all be #in the ‘oh no’ range

[amber-laughs]

“ned, jon and lyanna’s body all showed up together, why don’t people know?” because that would never happen. there is no possible way that lyanna’s body wouldn’t have decomposed which means she would have to be given to the silent sisters somewhere in Dorne. It’s possible ned could have been given her bones then and there but we know he sent them directly to winterfell. Ned didn’t go straight to winterfell, he went from the tower of joy to starfall then to King’s Landing to make amends with Robert after the blow up about elia and her children. for most certain he did not bring rhaegar’s newborn son to the place where his siblings were just brutally murdered. so what happened to jon? my best guess is that wylla the wetnurse, or whoever was seeing to him, took a boat from starfall (bc grrm made a point of saying they have them) to the north. so ned, jon, and lyanna all show up at varying times probably months to weeks in between and then ned sends for catelyn and robb. it’s not something that really looks suspicious imo

#this is one of my major pet peeves #i think people forget that ned went to KL and that’s where people get confused #asoiaf timeline #jon snow #ned stark #lyanna stark #r+l=j #valyrianscrolls #valyrian scrolls #house stark #game of thrones #asoiaf #asoiaf meta #tower of joy #eddard stark #wylla the wetnurse