The worst part about trying to figure out what Crocodile's deal is that because he's so fucking irredeemably evil in Alabasta... Like... Yeah he's just irredeemably evil. Like I love him but he did cause countless casualties, a ton of pain and suffering and literally attempted to blow up a million people
Like no amount of theoretical "trying to do it to save his son from the Government" or "trying to stop the Government from hurting anyone else" or just "doing it for the greater good" is going to make him any less of a mass murderer
But also Robin absolutely 100% helped with all of that shit simply because she wanted to read the Poneglyph for herself.
No amount of her intending to betray Crocodile from the begining and sabotaging his plans erases the fact that Robin also caused countless people to starve to death and die in the civil war. Her sabotages only succeeded out of sheer luck, and only spared the lives of the people at the final battle. She has the blood of countless innocents on her hands. Because she wanted to read history.
But her crimes were swept under the rug because she has a sad backstory and her sabotages worked out just at the nick of time by sheer dumb luck
So Croc??? Just??? Is there a chance??? At all???
But also he did literally intend to sell Buggy into slavery
Like, fuck Buggy, but jesus
What's also killing me is that we like. Don't know what Luffy thinks of Crocodile right now. Which really is like. The thing that will decide how we, as the readers, are supposed to feel about Crocodile. Luffy is our POV
Like we don't know what Luffy's opinion of Crocodile is after he helped save Luffy (and spared Ace once) during the Summit War. Like Luffy clearly fucking hated the man in Impel Down and the two interactions they had during the War weren't like positive (in the sense that Luffy himself didn't think of the interactions as particularly positive. Defending Whitebeard from being attacked once and then being like "wait what HIM?!" when Crocodile defended Ace. To be fair, in the midst of the chaos, there wasn't much time to spend on Pondering On Such Things because Ace needed to be saved, and Oda goes out of his way to not show us what's going on inside Luffy's head, because it's all meant to be out in the open anyways. Regardless, these weren't like "yay it's Crocodile! :)" moments for Luffy is what I mean)
But also Luffy was very grateful of Law for saving his life and was willing to put his trust into Law for their alliance- of course, they weren't explicitly enemies to begin with, rivals at most, but still. Luffy respects those who help him.
But also Luffy grew during the timeskip. Like he's not that clueless anymore (like he finally understands Hancock is in love with him etc), and similarly Luffy gets that Buggy is an absolute loser now. But also Buggy did also help save Luffy's life (even if it was by accident), and while IDK if Luffy is aware of that, I don't think that helped improve Luffy's impression of Buggy
So like. The fuck does Luffy think of Crocodile, at this moment? Even with the Cross Guild reveal, he didn't even really comment on Croc and just focused his energy on being confused about Buggy being "the leader" of CG. IDK it feels almost intentional or something, that we don't know what Luffy thinks?? Especially since we did get Zoro's opinion on Mihawk in the situation?? Or am I delulu??
(Sidenote. I'd love to know what Robin would have to say about Crocodile helping save Luffy's life. What Jinbei might think of the final words Crocodile left him with before blasting them out of Akainu's reach. But mainly just Robin's thoughts)
Like IDK my best guess would be that Luffy still hates Crocodile just the same but is like grossed out by technically owing him one??? In the classic
-kinda way, you know? And that he'd be just kinda confused about it?
Because I can't fucking imagine Luffy being like "oh we're cool now" with Crocodile, let alone "Yay Crocodile :) He saved my life!". But also like. Luffy does kind of owe Croc one. Kind of. And Luffy is usually very respectful of that kind of thing. Aaaaaaaa???
(Also does. Does Luffy even know it was Crocodile who yeeted him and Jinbei out of Akainu's reach to begin with. 'Cause he was unconcious. Knocked the fuck out. Does. Does Luffy even know. Did anybody tell him???)
I just.
There's the reasonable part of me that knows Crocodile is an irredeemable evil dickbag and everything he has ever said and done up to the most recent chapters support that. He is too far gone.
And then there's the absolutely delulu part that loves a tragic villian who gets a heartwrenching redemption that's looking for any fucking sign that could indicate Crocodile could maybe be one
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Toothless (and generally most dragons) lost all his personality in thw.
Gone was the loyal, protective, intelligent, curious, silly, expressive, understanding, and sassy/snarky dragon we adored more and more through each new installment in the franchise.
Who is this puppy in thw and what did he do to Toothless?
Look me in the eye and tell me that if anyone, dragon or not, was to pluck Hiccup off his back and send him into the ocean to die, they wouldn't get a minimum of two blasts in the face.
Yes, Toothless is playful and silly and adorable, but only around the people/dragons he trusts, and especially around Hiccup specifically.
Otherwise, his guard is up, he is wary, and he himself has to evaluate whether or not someone is safe to be around.
"Hey, I guess Dean dumbed him down because he wanted to show the effects of domestication—"
Woah there, big words.
Domestication? The definition of domestication is "the process of taming an animal and keeping it as a pet or on a farm".
That is not what's happening on Berk.
Dragons were never pets to humans. (If anything, humans were their pets.)
They stood by the Vikings' sides out of their own volition, and were free to come and go as they pleased.
We see this clearly in GoTNF.
They wouldn't let a human they didn't trust so much as touch them, let alone allow them anywhere near their backs.
They are the ones that choose their riders, or if they even want one, not the other way around.
And they weren't exactly "tamed" either. Or rather, nobody tried to alter their nature and innate instincts.
In RoB, we clearly see that Vikings are the ones who adjust, who adapt accordingly, because dragons are gonna do what dragons do.
And those instincts of theirs were honed. They weren't tamed, they were trained.
The notion that wild dragons are more powerful because they're wild makes no sense to me, because while wild dragons have raw power and raw instinct, trained dragons arguably have more than that.
They learn to work with other dragons, and they're able to pull off some incredible moves, because their bodies are, well, consistently trained.
They go on dangerous missions on the regular, for fuck's sake. During which, they also have to think. The dragons aren't told what to do, nor are they steered by their riders constantly (and when they are, the dragons trust them to do so)
They can take the reins as well (and when they do, the riders trust them to do so), but most of the time, they both move together in sync, understanding what, and how it, needs to be done.
In what world would such a lifestyle weaken them, or threaten to erase their aforementioned instincts?
I don't get Dean's point.
And Hiccup? What's up with the poor decision making?
Because I know damn well Hiccup wouldn't let dragons take over Berk to the point where, within the first ten minutes of the movie , half of it collapses. An event which apparently everyone is used to, because nobody worries about it.
He put an ocean between Garff and a couple of dragons because of how incompatible they were, in terms of needs and way of life.
He relocated dragons constantly, so as not to overcrowd and/or to protect the Edge.
Even when he was, what, 15 in RoB/DoB, he was mindful of the way he handled situations, to ensure Berk and the Vikings wouldn't be overwhelmed with dragons.
He understood that it's impossible for thousands of dragons to cohabitate with humans, and with each other, peacefully and without chaos.
Not to mention, he respected dragon culture and understood that some spaces were not made for the human eye. He made such a big deal about revering Vanaheim, and you expect me to believe he'd be okay with just exposing a place called The Hidden World, a delicate draconic paradise?
And wow, way to go, let's uproot the ENTIRE village, and go searching for this place that we don't even know for sure exists? Yes, very responsible.
And why not just make a life-changing call without consulting anyone, or thinking it through, based on what you alone think is best, while you're at it? Sounds like a great idea.
It's not like in previous installments he always made sure to have a team huddle to discuss (or at least inform the group of) their next move, even in the tightest of spots and with the littlest time; no, of course not.
His leadership abilities, his tactical and strategic thinking, his caution, his conviction and determination? Gone. Erased.
Who is this guy in thw and what did he do to Hiccup?
And as for Toothless and Hiccup's dynamic in this movie, something that Astrid said bugs me to an unfathomable degree.
"You gave him his freedom back, what did you expect?"
Woah there, big talk.
This paints a horribly ugly picture. It makes Toothless seem like he'd been held captive by Hiccup, that if he could've flown on his own, he would never have stuck around this long.
Which, much like the rest of this movie, is a load of horseshit.
Toothless is just as free, if not free-er than, as the rest of the dragons. Because while all dragons love and trust their riders, and vice versa, nobody has a connection quite like Toothless and Hiccup (save for perhaps Valka and Cloudjumper).
Toothless could've been flying on his own for a long, long time now. But he didn't want it. He was vehemently opposed to the idea.
Why? Because to him, flying was no longer worth it if Hiccup wasn't right there with him. Because Hiccup took the loneliness out of flying. Because Toothless wanted nothing more than to be by Hiccup's side. Hiccup was the one that made flying worth it.
A major theme of this movie is learning to fly on your own. Toothless had to learn how to fly without Hiccup, and Hiccup had to learn how to fly without Toothless (I mean, personally I'd rather them remaining inseparable soulmates that are mildly codependent. I recognize it's not necessarily the healthiest dynamic, but fuck if I care)
Toothless did this through meeting his mate, and falling in love (no matter how horribly written and designed she is, and no matter how I personally would've preferred for the Hicctooth bromance to remain undisturbed).
He met a creature that he wanted to follow and be alone with, a creature that made flying alone, with nobody on his back, worth it.
And more importantly, Hiccup had to realize that he's not who he is because he has Toothless, and subsequently the dragons. It's the opposite.
This is growth, and the realization that they don't need each other is important.
But why the fuck does that mean they have to say goodbye?
I don't need most of the people in my life. That doesn't mean I don't want them here.
The point was that Hiccup doesn't need Toothless in order to be someone.
Not that he didn't need Toothless, period.
(Even if the point was simply that he didn't need Toothless, which I could concede to, that again doesn't mean that Toothless had to leave, and take the entire dragon population with him.
To me, that sends a message of "if you don't need them, then they gotta go".
It's not what outgrowing a friendship looks like, despite the fact that many people choose to interpret it as such.
Sure, this movie shows what outgrowing a friendship is; if outgrowing a friendship means making room in your life for other people. If outgrowing a friendship means you found romance. Which is ridiculous.)
___________________
To further clarify:
I am well aware the shows aren't canon.
This, however, doesn't change the fact that all these series tie in with HTTYD 2 really well, and that they make sense.
They expand on the characters and give us a better grasp of the world in httyd. They allow us to understand everything better.
When you only have, at most, 150 minutes to tell a story, every minute of it needs to somehow add to the plot. To further the narrative. There is very little time for fluff.
In a movie, it's practically impossible to properly explore the characters' different dynamics, to give everyone their own arc, to let the audience bask in the slow moments and to let the characters just be.
In a series, however? Well. You've definitely got time.
For someone who only watched the movies, it would be pretty damn difficult to understand the mis-characterization in say, Snotlout, Fishlegs and the twins.
You don't know these characters that well. You don't know the well-established dynamics between the gang in the same way that someone who's watched the series does.
Which is exactly why I think that people who've watched them are the ones that dislike the hidden world the most.
I, too, am usually opposed to using non-canon material to make a point, but RoB, DoB and RTTE are the only spin-off series from a successful movie franchise I can name that make perfect sense. That succeed in accurately portraying the main cast, in realistically expanding on the secondary characters (like Fishlegs, Snotlout, and the twins, who now have the space to become part of the main cast), and in smoothly integrating new characters.
They also manage to beautifully explore this magical universe full of dragons, adventure, and mystery, while firmly establishing the dragons as an important part of ecosystems all around.
Whether it's subconscious or not, they create an unshakable image of how all the characters think, act, and interact. You spend a hell of a lot longer with the characters in a lengthy eight season series than in two movies.
But it's not a bad thing, because this image carved by the series fits in nicely with the image carved in all the canon installments of the franchise.
Well. Except for one, cough cough.
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i just think a "friended/romanced + saved + trust aj" violet does such a good job rounding out the plot and characters of S4 and i dont say that lightly
she walls people off out of fear just like S3 clem did and learned to grow out of through the compassion of others. feeling like she could have done more to save minnie being what initially makes her step up to lead, but her accepting her love for clem (and clem choosing to save her) is what leads to her Truly accepting the school and everyone inside it as her Home and gives her something to fight for ("i tried my damnedest not to care about either of you. and i still couldnt tell you why." "i know where youre coming from. after losing so many people, sometimes its easier to keep everyone at arms length." "and then you wonder why you fight so hard to stay alive. i dont wonder anymore."). this being the reasoning behind violets detachment from the school, as well as a negative home life impacting her idea of what a home even was. but together they turn ericson from a prison into the home theyve BOTH been looking for, renaming it together, and envisioning it for the future together. the two of them understand each other deeply, from what theyve lost to how its affected them and the poor ways theyve decided to react to it. but through their support of the other, they BOTH get to evolve into more relaxed and confident versions of themselves, who know Exactly what theyre fighting for
her troubled relationship with brody and getting to learn more about what happened with the twins/violets reaction to it and how she ultimately blames herself/brodys guilt about her part in it and how she misses violet. getting the chance to mend that relationship before its too late. the 3 of them becoming closer because of it. and getting to develop clems friendship with brody leads to a more impactful moment later in the basement
her relationship with tenn reflecting clems relationship with aj, in the way they both made the decision to look after their respective boys after their primary guardians died (ajs parents, tenns sisters). both of them can understand the responsibilities they have taken upon themselves, and how hard it can be to do right. the 4 of them become a tight knit group quickly. especially in EP2 as vi supports clem while tenn supports aj through the marlon fiasco
her confused relationship with minerva introducing interesting conflict both within her relationship with clem (who has her own personal conflict with minerva, which vi still ties into through her relationship with both minnie and tenn) and the over arching plot, which has themes of learning when to let someone go because they are no longer who they once were (clem and lilly "we were family once", mitch about ms martin "you get all caught up in who people used to be, and you cant deal with whats in front of you", violet about minnie "the real minnie? shes been gone this whole time and i have to stop mourning her")
having a saved violet on the boat expanding the conversation with minerva about her motivations with the delta. violet apologizing for never looking for her, minnie saying she knows she would have but that its too late now, so sure this is just the way things have to be. getting to hear minnie say "you can be rewarded, just like i am", giving us insight into her character. and clem getting the last word before she rams the door down, her and violet fighting minnie Together. and violet saves clems life, making the Choice to shoot minerva, which in and of itself is a huge moment for violets character in regards to her relationship with both minnie And clem
and aj shooting tenn on the bridge brings things full circle, by putting violet in the same position louis was in EP2, where aj has killed the most important person to her, in an effort to save her life, and now she must reckon with those feelings the same way louis had to about marlon. not so easy now is it violet? ("so youre mad, but sad" "can i be that for a while?" "yeah, its ok")
just... ough... violets whole character just fits into Everything so well, but in a way that elevates the characters and plots around her, while also developing her into her own
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