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oneatlatime · 7 months

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More Zuko Alone Thoughts

Last season our expository Zuko episode was The Storm, an episode which I loved. It was both a well-written and well-animated piece of media, and enthralling to watch. I don't want to say enjoyable because of the subject matter discussed, but it was certainly good.

This season's expository Zuko episode was Zuko Alone, and I didn't like it. Although it was animated fantastically, I found the characterisation of Zuko in the present day sections to be completely off. I found it embarrassing, awkward, and frustrating to watch. Now, I've seen the rating this episode has on IMDb, so I know this is just my opinion, and a fairly unpopular one at that. I'm also aware that I'm biased because Zuko is not my favourite character. But I want to explore why, in my opinion, The Storm stuck the landing while Zuko Alone flubbed it.

Here's what I think is the main reason: The Storm is Aang's story about his past, juxtaposed with Iroh's story about Zuko's past. Aang and Iroh are our storytellers; Aang and Zuko are the stories being told.

Zuko Alone is Zuko's story of the present, being experienced through Zuko's perspective, juxtaposed with Zuko's story in the past, being experienced through Zuko's memories. It's too much Zuko, and unlike the characters in The Storm, Zuko has no idea what's going on.

Despite his flightiness and inability to take things seriously, Aang is perceptive, socially and emotionally intelligent (as much as a 12 year old can be), and able to be subtle when the situation calls for it. Look at The Great Divide: as soon as he had the appropriate backstory info, he saw right to the heart of the conflict, he saw that it was stupid as Hell, and he saw and successfully executed a way to fix it that relied entirely on an accurate assessment of all involved parties' stances. And it worked.

Iroh has easily the highest perception stat in the whole show, when he isn't being deliberately obtuse. His wisdom is off the charts, if his one liners are anything to go by.

So despite some very (very) notable differences, Aang and Iroh have similarities in their personalities and their perspectives, and importantly for this post, in their self-knowledge.

Then we get Zuko, who has the perceptiveness and subtlety of a mud brick to the teeth, all the wisdom of a bandaid wrapper, and the social and emotional intelligence of something that starts to grow in your sink when it's been too long since you did the dishes.

Aand and Iroh can see the themes, lessons, mistakes, and places for improvement in the stories they're telling, about themselves and others. Zuko is stumbling through both his past and his present. The Storm is compelling because the audience gets to simultaneously learn expository detail and watch Aang and Iroh go through a process of self-analysis, recrimination, and commitment to doing better. It's an info dump with a hefty dose of character building on the side.

Zuko in Zuko Alone is a dumbass blindly stumbling into the same mistakes we've already seen him make, learning nothing in the process (that I could detect - maybe he'll run into the family's older brother in a few episodes and work up the courage to save him based on what he learned during his time with that family, who knows). Zuko has been trained to be a fighter, not a person, so of course he's going to fail at the 'soft skills' parts of being human. So Zuko needs someone with him to do/model that soft skills work until he learns how to do it for himself. But Zuko is alone in Zuko Alone, so the character development that could have happened doesn't.

I don't need morals and themes explicitly spelled out in the narrative; I'm fine with subtext. But Zuko in Zuko Alone so thoroughly misses what's going on in the episode that it's annoying to watch. And there's no indication at the end of the episode that he's learned anything from having missed those things. There's no indication that he's aware that there was anything to miss.

In The Storm, Aang has Katara to bounce off of and help talk him through his story. Iroh's wise enough not to need a foil, but he does have the ship's crew, both as a reason to tell the story and as an audience to play off of. Heck, in Bato of the Water Tribe, Sokka has Bato giving the speech about the lonely wolf to help him understand the point Sokka's dad was trying to make in the flashback, and avoid the wrong course of action (leaving Aang behind). Aang moves on from self-recrimination and Iroh has won back Zuko's crew's loyalty at the end of The Storm; Sokka has finally understood 'being a man means being where you're needed the most' by the end of Bato of the Water Tribe. But Zuko is alone by choice in Zuko Alone, so he finishes the episode exactly where he started, his mother's last words entirely misinterpreted. No wiser, probably unable to even articulate where he went wrong beyond fire = bad in this context.

There seems to be a theme in this show of the necessity of friends and family networks and support. Aang (with Katara's help), Iroh (with the crew as audience and motivator), Sokka (with Bato's help), all come to better understandings of their responsibilities and/or their mistakes by working things out with the help of at least one other person. Zuko ditches Iroh to play at being a lone wolf and fails in a way that's frankly embarrassing to watch.

So the reason I don't like Zuko Alone is that he's doomed to fail from the start. Zuko is (trying to) go about his character development in a way this show has already showed us is opposite to how it should be done. I'm not fond of 'doomed from the start' narratives as a general rule, mostly because to me they feel like a bad investment. If you know it's all going to end badly (because it started wrong), then why bother committing the time and effort the narrative asks of you? (She says, having read The Silmarillion twice).

So if I became Queen of the world tomorrow and decreed that Zuko Alone needed to be changed to fit my personal tastes, how would I do it? The obvious answer is to shove Iroh in there, but it probably wouldn't work anyway, because Zuko is not showing any signs of being ready to listen - REALLY LISTEN - to those wiser than him. I'm not sure if he's even ready to admit yet that there are people who ARE wiser than him. He's already admitted that there are people with more martial prowess than him, like his sister, but I don't think Zuko actually values wisdom enough to see its worth. So it's probably not even on his radar. If Iroh's presence wouldn't work, what about having a removed narrator, like Iroh did for Zuko's story in The Storm? A narrator who is not as thoroughly blind to what's going on in the past and the present as Zuko. Maybe a single episode character, who tells the story of that time a stranger came to town? That might work. It would fit with the genre this episode is paying homage to. Or you could have an interesting juxtaposition, where the narrator character is not omniscient, narrating the present only, and Zuko is completely alone during the flashback bits. That would probably lead to Zuko making the same mistakes anyway, since it's really his past that he needs to work through.

Or maybe I'm reading way too much into this and I just don't like Zuko enough as a character to like a Zuko-centric story, no matter how it's told. Or maybe 24 minutes of second-hand embarrassment is 24 too many for me. At least he's keeping Song's horse bird fed.

#atla #avatar: the last airbender #avatar the last airbender #zuko alone #the storm

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zukosdualdao · 5 days

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i feel for ursa a lot in zuko alone because just think about terrified she must be. she orchestrates this plot that gets her banished for the sake of zuko’s safety, and yet, even as she’s doing so, she’s aware the risks to her children aren’t suddenly gone—the most imminent physical danger was just currently taken care of. and she had to leave, probably with a terrified understanding that it might not even protect them for all that long.

because once again: abuse very often leaves the victims and witnesses with no good options, and in this case, ursa is actually both. and the fear i think she must feel here—because i read a lot of panic in her goodbye scene with zuko—is not unfounded! they’re not safe with ozai! he will continue manipulating them and teaching and encouraging inappropriate behaviors! the agni kai and zuko’s banishment happen just three years later!

which is why i really see ursa’s words to zuko —“never forget who you are”—as advice meant to encourage him to protect himself. earlier that day (? i think. it’s certainly not long before), she told him he was someone who always kept fighting, even when it was hard, and in reminding zuko of that as she’s leaving, she implies she thinks zuko’s going to have to rely on that skill a lot—and considering the context, i think it’s safe to say she thinks that because she thinks he’ll have to fight to continue to survive. (she’s not wrong!)

just wanted to say this because i was scouring the tv tropes page for zuko alone today and it lists his remembering his mother’s final words before getting back up into the fight, surrounded by flame, and revealing his true identity, as “dramatically missing the point” and i don’t think that’s quite right. or if it is, it’s not for the reasons they think.

the troper listed that moment under this trope because he forgoes the values of kindness and compassion his mother tried to instill in him, but i don’t connect the “remember who you are” line to that, and i don’t think zuko does either. (he’s also not foregoing kindness here: he’s doing what he’s doing to help a family in a town where the local authorities are abusing their power.) she reframes what he sees as a failure when he struggles showcasing his firebending as an attribute, something that makes him who he is—someone who doesn’t give up when things are hard, someone who gets back up and keeps trying anyway. that’s what she’s reminding zuko of in their goodbye.

and i think zuko understands that pretty clearly, actually—he doesn’t know for sure what she’s protecting him from (and doesn’t let himself think about it too hard) but he definitely knows that she is because she tells him as much. so he integrates her final words of advice to him into his core self-perception—his monologuing in the siege of the north part 2 makes this pretty evident. “i’ve always had to struggle and fight, and that’s made me strong. that’s made me who i am.”

so i would argue that it’s not that zuko is missing the point of what ursa is telling him, but rather that it can’t actually be appropriately applied to every situation. and even when it can, zuko struggles to balance it with his other values and desires.

zuko is doing what ursa encouraged him to do in the north pole—he’s not giving up even though it’s hard, even though there’s a blizzard and he has no resources and nowhere to go and the odds are completely stacked against him. he’s doing exactly what she said! and ursa would be horrified because the whole reason she said it was to protect him, and now he’s throwing himself into this dangerous, potentially fatal situation, and he’s doing something harmful by capturing aang in an attempt to go back to ozai. he’s doing it because he’s a desperate kid under the thumb of ozai’s manipulations and abuse, of course, but i think ursa (like iroh) would be saddened and scared that he’s going to these lengths and harming both other people and himself when his literal survival doesn’t call for it. (but in zuko’s head it does, because a) the survival of the old life he’s still holding out hope he can get back to depends on this and b) he’s been conditioned to not feel safe if he doesn’t do the things he believes ozai expects from him. that’s the Trauma (TM).)

the situation when he’s fighting in zuko alone is different, though, because he genuinely does have to get up and keep fighting in order to survive. and while i think ursa was mostly, you know, talking about ozai when she encouraged him to protect himself, i mean… of course she would encourage him to stand and fight when he’s been knocked back down and an opponent is approaching to make the final blow! i don’t think she would encourage him to just, like, not defend himself and instead let some guy kill him. nor would she discourage him from defending a suffering town.

the issue here is not that zuko misunderstands her or even that he’s inappropriately applying her advice in this instance—the situation does call for him to get back up and keep fighting! it doesn’t necessarily call for the Extreme Amounts of Fire though, nor does it call for his revealing his true identity, and that’s where i think the real issue lies in this moment: he can’t remember one part of who he is without remembering the rest of it, too, and that includes his fire, his family, his history. there’s no disentangling those aspects of his identity. balancing them with both the survival mechanism his mother encouraged in order to protect him and the values she tried to instill in him is the struggle.

#atla rewatch ‘24 #zuko alone #zuko #ursa #zuko & ursa #the siege of the north part two #abuse //#this is is so long and idk how coherent lmao #anyway. the love hate relationship i have with tv tropes knows no biunds #* no bounds #fandom critical #jic #could tag other characters but it’s mostly about them so #long post //#literally why am i like this

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prying-pandora666 · 1 year

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My Azula Diagnosis Analysis Part 6: Borderline Personality Disorder

As the master post I wrote was too long, I’ve divided it into parts. Find them all here.

Sick of bad armchair diagnosis for Azula? Me too! So in this thread let’s discuss Azula’s most commonly “diagnosed” illnesses and disorders, and find out what she actually meets the criteria for, if any.

Does Azula have borderline personality disorder?

This is an extremely misunderstood and stigmatized condition. The name itself is a relic from a time when psychiatry was still identifying and classifying mental illnesses and personality disorders (only two classifications existed at the time, now we have three), meaning BPD was named because it had overlap with some other conditions but didn’t fully fit any of them.

As such it was called borderline. Today some experts suggest the name should be updated, as it’s name is often misunderstood to mean that a person is only on the borderline of having a personality disorder, or that they’re borderline psychotic.

Neither is the case. Borderline Personality Disorder is it’s own unique and complex condition. Although it is famously known for being amongst the most difficult or even impossible to treat, patients who do manage to commit to treatment have a much better prognosis than many other PDs.

BPD Claims

—There aren’t any as far as I’ve seen. This isn’t a condition people label Azula with, surprisingly, as she conforms to it way more closely than more commonly cited PDs such as Narcissistic Personality Disorder and Antisocial Personality Disorder (Sociopathy).

So Does Azula have Borderline Personality Disorder?

As always, PDs are complicated and don’t express exactly the same way for every person. So let’s look at the symptoms considered diagnostically significant.

—An intense fear of abandonment, even going to extreme measures to avoid real or imagined separation or rejection: Azula embodies this very well. She is terrified of being discarded by Ozai, and objects to being treated like the rejected child when Ozai finally does so. “You can’t treat me like this! You can’t treat me like Zuko!” She also uses fear and manipulation to keep her friends and brother close, as she is terrified that she is inherently unloveable and there is no other way. “What choice do I have?” “Fear is the only way.” It is unclear to what extent Ursa actually rejected her daughter and how much was perceived that way, but either way Azula certainly is deeply wounded by the perception of having been unloved and abandoned by her mother.

—A pattern of unstable intense relationships, such as idealizing someone one moment and then suddenly believing the person doesn't care enough or is cruel: To a certain extent, yes, with Zuko. Though she doesn’t idealize him, Azula does risk a lot to help her brother in her own twisted, manipulative way, and is even the first to tell him he doesn’t need Ozai to restore his honor and can do so himself. She also protects him when they’re home, calming him down when he has outbursts and keeping his visits to Iroh secret and warning him to be more careful. However, Azula spins on a dime once Zuko lies to her about Aang, setting him up to take the fall, and reacts even more poorly when he betrays her to join the Avatar, going so far as to attempt to kill him. She repeats this pattern in the comics, alternating between wanting Zuko to be on her side and protecting him one moment, and causing him significant problems the next. She also idealizes her father and strives to please him in The Show, but has lost all interest in him by Smoke and Shadow, content to let him rot in prison.

—Rapid changes in self-identity and self-image that include shifting goals and values, and seeing yourself as bad or as if you don't exist at all: We don’t know much about Azula’s self-identity in The Show as she never expresses her own wants outside of serving Ozai. She has, however, internalized herself as an unloveable monster due to her estranged relationship with her mother, and in the comics she is a mess trying to figure out her destiny.

—Periods of stress-related paranoia and loss of contact with reality, lasting from a few minutes to a few hours: This happens during her breakdown in The Show and again in The Search. What’s significant about this symptom is that it can disappear entirely when under less stressful conditions, making Azula’s hallucinations and delusions much more in-line with BPD than, say, schizophrenia.

—Impulsive and risky behavior, such as gambling, reckless driving, unsafe sex, spending sprees, binge eating or drug abuse, or sabotaging success by suddenly quitting a good job or ending a positive relationship: Azula is a calculating person and doesn’t engage in such risky behaviors usually. After her breakdown she gets increasingly impulsive and erratic, but as this could be true of anyone after a psychotic break, it’s not necessarily symptomatic. What makes it more likely is that her more erratic and risky behavior continues on into the comics.

—Suicidal threats or behavior or self-injury, often in response to fear of separation or rejection: While Azula never makes such threats, she does act suicidally after the rejection of her brother and two friends. She almost dies going after Zuko and agrees to an Agni Kai when she can barely stand.

—Wide mood swings lasting from a few hours to a few days, which can include intense happiness, irritability, shame or anxiety: After her breakdown, this becomes common for her.

—Ongoing feelings of emptiness: Very much so, as demonstrated by her argument with “mirror Ursa” in The Show, culminating in her sobbing alone in a nearly empty palace.

—Inappropriate, intense anger, such as frequently losing your temper, being sarcastic or bitter, or having physical fights: Azula’s anger is usually much better controlled than, say, her brother. After her breakdown she loses this control. But even discounting the psychotic break, Azula is often sarcastic and sometimes bitter, especially regarding the topic of family.

—BPD is more commonly diagnosed in women and correlated with higher intelligence: Not really diagnostic, but it is interesting.

Conclusion: Azula fits every symptom at least partially. It’s a distinct possibility she suffers from BPD, which would explain the intense emotions (and suffering) she goes through, as people with BPD are prone to feel emotional pain very strongly to the point of suicidality. This is likely a symptom of abuse, as Azula has had to keep her feelings tightly controlled to protect herself from her abusive father, who has shown what he does to those who display weakness. As such, she hasn’t actually developed emotional regulation, and the lack of proper healthy attachment with either of her parents in childhood has left her with deep psychological insecurities that affect her ability to form and keep relationships despite being otherwise charismatic and highly capable of empathizing with others.

However, there is a complication. Other conditions (such as CPTSD) can masquerade as BPD. But unlike BPD which is a lifelong condition etched into your very developmental neurology, CPTSD is more treatable, and it is possible for symptoms to reduce heavily or even desist altogether in some cases.

The best we can say is that BPD is the most likely personality disorder for Azula to have. If indeed she has one at all.

#avatar #Atla #avatar the last airbender #Azula #Azula Diagnosis Masterpost

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fanboyzuko · 1 year

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How much is a royal title worth in LTF? Dragons Wings seems to imply that it was a really big deal having Lu Ten as a figurehead for the movement, does that importance extend outside of the Fire Nation as well? Outside Ba Sing Se he immediately became a valuable target the moment the wrong person found out his location.

I'm extrapolating from available information mostly to try to figure out how careful the Sazanami needs to be when traveling outside Fire Nation controlled waters with two royals on board. And how dangerous it might be if information about their location and mode of transport were to spread. Would the Earth Kingdom generals consider them a worthwhile target to chase after if that information became known? Would the South Water Tribe fleet?

And depending on the answer to those questions, would the Wings mention having royal backing in any eventual future meetings with other factions? or would they keep it quiet to not risk a repeat of what happened to Lu Ten? (The more I think about it, the more Zuko's Hui-persona seems to offer a vital layer of protective camouflage, allowing him to become insignificant to those who would go after him. How much does Zhao know about the details of that identity? that's the only weak point I can see at the moment.)

TL;DR Royal title has significant political weight in LTF. However, threat levels of being specifically targeted not too high for Zuko&Iroh while sailing about even outside of FN waters. No different than any other FN vessel. Wings will definitely start establishing they have someone suitable to take the throne if they overthrow Ozai, at least to FN allies. To possible foreign allies? Proooobably not after they were burned so hard last time... Hui should be safe from Zhao.

Long rambling answer:

Oh maaan you always ask them hard hitting questions. I really had to think on this one.

So perhaps the first thing I really sat thinking about is how in canon, the political weight the noble class is very... light? Understandably so, as this is a Nick cartoon, not some Game of Thrones style type shit. I feel like that pretty much extends to general fandom perception and content? Like I feel most the time when I see focus on the importance of say Zuko's royal standing, it's to deconstruct it and show him 'breaking norms.' But what ARE the norms?

Zuko may have been banished and (presumably) taken out of the line of inheritance until he found the Avatar, but Iroh still had his title as a prince of the FN. Even disgraced after the siege, he has standing. But it doesn't come off that way at all! And then Azula, Ozai's only heir while Zuko is banished, is sent off to capture Aang. And sure she's a powerful firebender but?? She really had meager guards and protection being IN THE MIDDLE OF ENEMY TERRITORY! And gosh the whole King Kuei running off into the wild with his pet bear is bonkers. No matter how much of a puppet king he was, he's still a whole ass king. Buck wild. But again, kids show lol.

So then turning to LTF... The politics are a litter messier and hold more weight. The Fire Nation royal line 'traces back to the first Fire Lord' and it is a Big Deal. There's probably a lot of nobles who take immense pride in their connections to the royal line. "I'm the great-great grandson of Fire Lord X's youngest sister!" type shit. And it's a big deal who is then brought into the royal family. Hence Ursa coming out of nowhere was such a huge upset in the court.

As far as the commonfolk go, I'd say that ties into the spiritual significance of the royal family. The FN gives off the 'divine right to rule' vibe to their politics, with the original Fire Lord being a Fire Sage and the throne being tied closely to the Fire Sages in its beginnings. Even after the Fire Lords started pulling more power to themselves and from the sages, the Fire Sage clearly still have strong social and political sway. I hinted a bit at it with Ju Long at one point, how the Fire Lord is supposed to be a representative of the FN's spirits of sorts.

So it is important that if there's a faction going against the throne, they have someone from the royal family backing them. No matter how radical the group, they know that if they're going to usurp the Fire Lord and keep someone else on the throne, they need the support of the nobles and commonfolk. Only way to do that is with someone in the royal line. Also touched on that briefly with Bun Ma's conversation with Iroh before she left, about the Fire Lord who was overthrown by the clans who had to marry their candidate to rule to someone in the royal line to secure their place.

Which now gets me thinking, it'd be SO interesting if the Earth Kingdom tried forcing Zuko/Iroh to marry an EK noble and making a claim to the Fire Nation throne.... Oh man that'd be so interesting. Bc honestly, with Zuko's banishment and Iroh basically abdicating the throne, they aren't high profile targets to foreign powers. Lu Ten was targeted because his worth to Iroh was well known, and it seemed like the best move to end the siege. There's no benefit to targeting Zuko or Iroh other than reparations in regards to Iroh (like what almost happened in the show when he was taking his bath lmao), a shot in the dark Ozai isn't as heartless as he seems and would care about a ransom, or the secret third option I just thought of, of trying to upset FN politics from the inside...

I'm losing the thread some maybe... I've been thinking about this all day can you tell haha.

Okay so for the Wings, if they want to have any hope of making significant waves in the FN political sphere, they need that royal backing. So as they start pushing harder, they will need to disclose they have someone suitable to take the throne should they overthrow Ozai. But they'll be playing it safe of keeping it vague just who they're putting their money on. If anyone outside the Wings starts hearing of their movement and mission, they could think it's Iroh or even a noble with direct lines of descent from the royal family.

Coordinating with foreign allies, they'll be keeping their cards even closer to their chest. After Lu Ten they're not going to take any chances. So they'd definitely imply their royal backer isn't in the immediate royal family. Or that they're completely breaking FN norms and saying fuck it. After a century of conflict and isolation, EK and WTs wouldn't necessarily know the political and cultural climate of the FN. They could probably accept and believe a rebel group hoping to overthrow the throne without royal backing, unlike FN allies.

As far as Zhao goes, he definitely underestimates the power of Hui. Even if he did learn Zuko's undercover name, he hasn't remembered it. He just vaguely knows that Zuko's been posing as a scholar. What a waste of time and resources, but go off banished prince, is his mindset. Last he's met Zuko, he went to the library and came back without seeming to have learned all that much. Whoopdeedoo.

If he actually knew just how much shit Zuko's gotten up to as Hui and how many connections he's made, it'd be a different story. But he doesn't, so Hui's safe from Zhao's interference.

#bookwyrmie #atla #jam talks #i had a lot of thoughts lmao #this is stupid long

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sokkastyles · 3 years

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What's with this common perception of K//taang as this "pure, wholesome, vanilla ship" when it actually has a lot of problematic and misogynistic elements to it?

Part of the reason is that people love to make simplistic dichotomies, which is odd for a show which has a major theme of breaking down dichotomies, but there it is.

At first glance zutara has a lot of the same beats as other enemies to lovers and hero/villain ships. Especially those involving a villainous male character and a heroic female character. And a lot of the appeal for THAT comes from the death and the maiden trope, which is as old as dirt. See Hades and Persephone. There’s also some Beauty and the Beast vibes. These are old, old tropes and they endure despite or because of the way they tap into darker aspects of the human psyche and desire. In a lot of these types of ships, the darkness is the appeal.

And zutara has some of this, which I suppose explains the popularity of the whole “I’ll save you from the pirates” thing, but really, if you were looking for that kind of ship, zutara isn’t really the one you would go for, because it’s like, the lightest possible version of this type of dynamic. Because Zuko at his most menacing is never really that threatening to the gaang, and most of the good shipping material for zutara happens after Zuko stops being such a jerk.

The appeal of any ship involving Zuko is really more of the appeal of the redeemed rival. Despite Zuko’s redemption, though, a lot of people still try to position zutara as the “dark” ship in comparison to KA, partly because the show does this in some ways - although in doing so, they kinda shot themselves in the foot, see episodes like “The Southern Raiders” and “Ember Island Players” which try to push the Zuko vs Aang thing in terms of their relationship to Katara but end up making Zuko look better in comparison.

There’s also the stigma around abuse victims that I’ve seen in other fandoms. Zuko is the “dark” option because he’s “damaged.” Even though his ending is one of hope and healing, a lot of the anti discourse reads as victim blaming, particularly when people say that Mai is a better option for Zuko because she “handles” him or puts up with him. Which is horrible for both Mai and Zuko.

I would also argue that it’s just regular old misogyny. We as a society are taught to view female desire itself as dark, which is why a lot of these types of love triangles follow the same pattern. The plucky good guy in pursuit of the girl who is attracted to a good-looking “bad boy” who is no good for her. By the end of the story, the girl will learn that the guy who is pursuing her is the one she should have chosen all along. This is the reason the myth of the Nice Guy persists. And the show creators themselves have used these words to talk about KA vs ZK, despite Katara never actually expressing attraction to Zuko in the series itself. But the idea that she could be is definitely present in the series. It’s also present in the way the fandom talks about these two ships.

And this is what really sours KA for me, too. I’ve seen SO many posts about how you have to ship it because “Aang is so nice.” And, um??? No, you don’t. In general, being “nice” is such a bizarre criteria for romance, that’s what so-called Nice Guys don’t understand. People who call themselves nice guys also usually aren’t that nice, but that isn’t the whole issue. The issue is that being nice doesn’t entitle you to a relationship.

And once you consider yourself a nice guy, you can justify all sorts of nastiness and entitlement. That’s the main difference between how KA is presented and how Zutara is presented. KA begins with the assumption that eventually Katara and Aang will get together, so every obstacle they face is just a bump in the road. Aang is, after all, so nice. He would never really hurt Katara. Therefore, if Katara feels hurt by Aang, it probably wasn’t as bad as she thought. Aang’s so nice, after all.

Which is...not actually all that wholesome at all. It has nothing at all to do with how nice Aang actually is, but the very fact that no relationship should be built on the assumption that one partner is infallible or “earned” a relationship due to being nice. That’s not how it works.

Contrast that with a guy who knows that he is capable of mistakes, who knows he’s capable of hurting others but is also capable of admitting it and apologizing and working to correct that behavior. That’s actually way more wholesome in reality.

I’m not talking about a situation where an abusive partner acts like they’re entitled for their partner to take them back because they’re sorry. In that situation there’s a likelihood that the abusive person will do the same thing again, whether or not they are actually sorry. But the beauty of Zutara is that Zuko never expects anything from Katara. He doesn’t change for Katara or the promise of her love or friendship. He changes himself, by himself, and it’s only then that Katara accepts him.

The reality is that anything that is presented as pure and wholesome is probably something you should immediately question. This is true wrt relationships, institutions, authority, and the discourse you read on the internet. People who are truly good don’t have to convince you that they’re pure. People who are truly good know that they’re fallible, and anyone who tries to convince you otherwise probably has an agenda that you should be wary of.

That’s why Iroh says that Zuko is pure, truly pure, at the end of the series. Because he’s been through the darkness and come out a better person for it. I’ll take that any day of the week over idealized vanilla white bread with misogynistic undertones.

#zutara #zuko #katara #antikataang

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hello-nichya-here · 2 years

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Understanding Azula

what do you think drove Azula to come up with the idea of burning the earth kingdom (or the whole world exept fire nation I think?..) to the ground? why wasn’t subduing the world enough for her? like I try my best to understand her here and the best thing I can think of is that ‘if the world doesn’t acknowledge us, The Fire Nation, the greatest civilization in history and accept our greatness, then there’s no point in keeping you filth on this earth we share as you’re only drowning everyone in your misery.

Ugh, that was cringe and probably not the reason behind this. But there’s no way she proposed to do such vast change just to please her dad for the millionth, that’s just not all there is to her character. All I know is that The Fire Nation’s toxic propaganda on which she was brough up really fucked up Azula’s mind and perception of the world and since she’s trying to be perfect and to better everything, she took that 'sharing our greatness with the world’ thing to a whole new level to which Ozai, of course, agreed. She obviously thought hard about what she was taught in school, by the enviroment and by her father and so that’s how she came to such idea. But I’d like to hear your thoughts on this too. Thank you for your time

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Let’s take a look at how firebenders behave in the show and see if you notice a pattern that I like to call “The Fire Nation/Firebending Problem”

On the very first episode, Zuko threatens to burn what is left of Katara and Sokka’s village if Aang refuses to surrender. We also find out that every air-nomad except for Aang has been killed by the Fire Nation.

01x03 introduces the audience to the concept of Agni Kais - firebending duels that traditionally end with the winner burning the loser. We also learn that is completely acceptable for a 16-year-old to be involved in these duels, even if his opponent is a fully grown adult. 01x03 confirms that even 13-year-olds are allowed to fight in these duels, including against grown ass adults, even if said adult is their parent, and said parent will not be punished in any way for using fire to disfigure their own child who merely spoke out of turn to defend the soldiers of it’s own nation.

01x04 has Zuko burning Suki’s village while he’s looking for the Avatar. If Aang

01x06 shows us that the Fire Nation has burned down an entire forest - one that was protected by a spirit, meaning any kind of sacred ground likely doesn’t mean shit to them.

01x16 introduces us to Jeong-Jeong, a firebender who used to be in the Fire Nation’s army, but left after a traumatic event in which he lost control and it led to someone getting hurt or killed. He warns Aang, who has nothing to do with the Fire Nation’s current culture of war and destruction, that fire consumes everything. Aang then gets impatient during training, loses control, burns Katara’s hands, and then vows to never firebend again. He then manages to make Zhao lose control and accidentally destroy his own boats during a fight.

The first season’s finale has Zhao trying to kill both the moon and the ocean spirits - even though said spirits are obviously very powerful and pissing them off is not the brightest of ideas when you live in a fucking archipelago! When the news of this incident reaches the Fire Nation, Iroh is considered a traitor for fighting alongside “the enemy”, even though it was obviously a necessary, temporary alliance that likely prevented the Fire Nation from being ruined for good. There is never any indication that anyone in the palace or in the country thought Zhao was insane or stupid for what was basically a suicidal move not just for himself, but for the entire nation. This episode also has Zuko’s dumbest move ever: capturing Aang despite having nowhere to go, and fighting a waterbender in the snow, at night, during the full moon.

On her introduction scene during the first episode of season 2, Azula decides to basically ignore a completely reasonable warning to not go against the tides - which is a reckless, dangerous, and stupid move for a character that will prove to usually be very careful, smart, logical and a perfectionist to an unhealthy degree. The fact that she is on a super important mission that her father (and ruler) personally chose her to lead completely clouds her judgement.

02x07 has Iroh jokingly saying he will burn Ba Sing Se to the ground once he conquers it, yet the possibility of it actually happening is very real considering, well *gestures broadly at the entire show*. We also see Azula putting an apple on Mai’s head and setting it on fire, which could have hurt her as a prank (that Ty Lee thinks is hilarious), and she says very disturbing things about how her grandpa will die soon and how her uncle is weak for falling apart after his son died - she quite clearly heard those things from her father, and believes them to be completely normal. Finally, we have Ozai asking his father to make him the heir that Iroh lost his son, and Azulon decides that the only fair punishment is to force Ozai to kill Zuko, aka his own son.

02x09 has Zuko failing to generate lightning due to his own emotional turmoil, and so being taught to redirect it instead. He is outraged that his uncle won’t shoot lightning at him, goes up on a mountain during a storm and screaming at the universe to see if he can get hit. He does not understand how INSANE that is.

02x17 has Zuko being reckless once again and trying to steal Appa to lure Aang to him, even though he will have no way of hiding a giant flying bison. Iroh talks him out of it and finally questioning if his destiny really is what he thought it was, and the very next episode shows us that this was enough to make him physically ill.

The season 2 finale has Azula saying that likes the Dai Li because, and I quote, “They have a killer-instinct that is so firebending”

03x02 shows us that Fire Nation school books don’t teach what actually happened to the Air-Nomads (a genocide against pacifist groups that happened through ambush) and instead make it look more a “fair” conflict in which their nation was victorious. We also see that they are erasing parts of their own culture, like traditional dances. The next episode shows us a Fire Nation city (that was protected by a spirit) was destroyed, this time through the polution instead of by fire.

03x05 shows us our favorite problematic teens turning a beach game into a war (with an explosion and all) and destroying somebody’s house because they couldn’t deal with their own issues.

03x06 finally explains how the war started: Fire Lord Sozin wanted to “share” his nation’s glory with the rest of the world, and started invading cities and killing people when they didn’t accept to be ruled by him, murdering his best friend, and eventually commiting a genocide in an attempt to kill the new Avatar. We also find out that Zuko, the goddamn prince, doesn’t know that he and his sister are descendents of Avatar Roku, and there’s nothing to indicate that Azula has even the slightest clue about it either.

03x09 has a war meeting happening, but we don’t find out until the finale that the Fire Nation is having trouble controling the Earth Kingdom. Zuko says the Earth Kingdom won’t stop fighting as long as they have hope, and so Azula says they should take their hope and what’s LEFT of their land and burn it to ground (obviously a fuck ton of damage was done during a century of war) and Ozai says he will rule EVERYTHING once a new WORLD rises from the ASHES.

03x12 has Zuko accidentally burning Toph’s feet, and his vow to be more careful so he won’t unintenitonally hurt someone is what convinces Aang to let him be his firebending teacher.

03x13 shows us that Zuko can no longer firebend because his power was driven by anger and he no longer wants to rely on it, the Fire Nation killed all the dragons (except two that Iroh had to lie about to protect), and when Aang and Zuko meet the masters, it is very clear that if they fail their task they will be burned alive by the dragons, because while fire doesn’t have to be just death and it destruction, those things are still a key part of that element.

03x15 shows us the warden of the boiling rock choosing an incredibly painful death over being seen as a failure. We also see Azula lose control of her temper and impulsively get on a fight for the first time after her friends “betray” her - she will only get more and more impulsive as her sanity/emotional stability deteoriates.

In the finale Iroh essentially tells Zuko he has to kill his own sister (while refusing to kill Ozai because it’d make him look bad) and that Aang would have to kill Ozai - the episode ends with both still alive and defeated through other means. Ozai, who declared himself the Phoenix King (as in, the one that rises from the ashes), tries and fails to burn all of the Earth Kingdom, and quite clearly would have rathered die than to lose power.

What Azula said on that war meeting was terrible. It was also perfectly understandable considering the fatal flaw of every firebender (including good guy, funny uncle, Holier-Than-Thou Iroh), what was expected of her by her father, what was expected of a Fire Nation princess AND warrior, and a natural consequence being raised in a nation that is focusing on winning every single time, through whatever means necessary, no matter the coast or how counter-productive the methods can be, and that then lies to hide it’s own fuck ups.

Azula isn’t “the odd one out”, she’s the norm and a literal child soldier repeating the insanity she was groomed to believe was normal. This plan was basically an announced tragedy from the moment that Sozin decided to start the war.

(Plus, there’s the added possible reason that she went for the most aggressive “solution” imaginable and that Ozai or one of his man would likely already be considering to cover up for the fact that her dumbass of a brother just praised the enemy in front of everyone)

#submission #azula meta #actual child soldier azula #actual human child azula #azula deserved better #fire nation fuckery #fire nation royal family

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julietwiskey1 · 2 years

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De-Aged Azula AU: Babysitters

The comedic aspect of this AU is definitely the gaang trying to babysit and the raise future ruler of the Fire Nation five-year-old Azula. The gaang is quick to learn that a child like Azula needs near constant supervision. It’s not that they think she tries to be bad and so destructive, it just seems that chaos follows her around the palace. Which begs the question how would people try to watch over Azula?

Here is my take.

Zuko: He would be absolutely awful. Even if Azula is only five and he is sixteen she still knows how to push all of his buttons. His quick temper and impatience means that he is often found getting very angry and walking off or shooting insults right back at her. Most of the time Azula finds this funny, but occasionally Zuko goes to far and she ends up crying (Katara tells her that it is okay to cry sometimes).

Iroh: Somehow is worse than Zuko. His stick of kindly old man does not fool Azula, and she still doesn’t like him. And you know what, he doesn’t like her back. He just sticks around because Zuko begged him for help with Azula and her education. After all what does Zuko know about selecting tutors.

Katara: She can get overly preachy sometimes when interacting with Azula. She tries to undo all of the bad things Azula has learned, and trying to get the child to engage more with her emotions. Katara also has the unfortunate perception of being the “group mom” which leads to the gaang trying to make her Azula’s mom when ever they babysit. This means that they always try to give her Azula when ever Azula misbehaves or is being difficult (which is often).

Sokka: He happens to be a surprisingly good babysitter much to the wonder and amusement of the gaang. Although Katara is not surprised, she never did have the heart to tell him, but the real reason why the village let him try to train their children to be warriors is because it was essentially free day care. So, when he babysits Azula he falls back on old habits and starts trying to train her to be a warrior, which Azula finds supper fun and she tries her best. The rest of the gaang find it disturbing that he is training her to be a child soldier again, but how can they complain when she is so tired that she falls asleep at bed time?

Suki: She is very similar to Sokka in her strategy with Azula. Suki often trains her in the same method she trains her warriors, and becomes quite impressed that she is already at the level she would expect of an eight or nine-year-old. Amongst the training she also gives history lessons on the kyoshi Warriors. Azula appears to idolize her and always seems to gravitate over to her when she is with the rest of the gaang.

Toph: The gaang absolutely refuses to let Toph babysit Azula alone. Toph’s only goal when looking after Azula is to make sure that the little spitfire doesn’t get hurt, beyond that its free game. When they are alone together steeling from the kitchens is inevitable along with some accidental destruction. Toph has becomes Azula master in the art of the prank, but soon the student becomes the master.

Aang: Azula does not like Aang, actually she is terrified of him and refuses to be alone with the boy. After all she knows that he hurt her father, and while she can warm up to the rest of the gaang, she can never seem to relax around him. He only interacts with Azula in a group setting, were he is always trying to do something cool and interesting in an effort to befriend the girl.

Okay so that was my take on how the gaang would babysitting Azula. Let me know what you agree or disagree with. At this time, I don’t know if Mai or Ty Lee would try to babysit child Azula. It might just be too weird for them to see their friend turned enemy the age as they originally met. Do y’all think Mai and Ty Lee would baby sit Azula? Also, I am planning on Ursa showing up again with Kiyi and Ikem, and having Ursa take over as Azula’s main caregiver. But I don’t know if it should be like the search where she had a memory wipe, or if she retained her memory and returned to the palace as soon as possible, what are your thoughts?

#de aged azula #azula #zuko #iroh #katara #sokka #suki #toph #aang

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snafu-maniac1 · 3 years

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Zuko deserved better

So I rewatched Avatar the Last Airbender recently and let me tell you......

I wanna murder several people.

Looking back on this entire series I’ve come to notice something. I watched the show just like any other audience member and only saw the good and the bad characters. One of these prime examples is Zuko. Zuko’s redemption arc has been praised as one of the greatest in history, succeeding where others have failed. But watching it all again......it wasn’t redemption. Not to me personally.

Before everyone gets angry and defensive at me, please finish reading my post and hear what I have to say. I do not wish to start any fandom wars or discredit or disrespect anyone’s opinion, this is just my personal psychological analysis of Zuko’s character....Sigh and let me give you a warning.

It’s gonna be LONG.

So if you’re not interested or don’t want to hear it or don’t feel like reading something this long that’s fine, you can go ahead and just click away and ignore this post.

Starting from book 2.

Now you may be wondering why I’m starting here and not from the start of Zuko’s childhood but I first want to address the one question everyone had been wondering since the series 2 finale. What would have happened if Zuko hadn’t sided with Azula?

My answer is.....that wouldn’t have happened.

Everyone’s been focusing on the entire arc where Zuko was struggling to accept that the war was wrong and how Iroh was trying to get through to him when he tried to capture Appa and afterwards, but here’s something everyone tends to ignore.

Why didn’t Iroh try sooner?

Why didn’t he try to stop Zuko before Aang came, before he’d gotten so deep and desperate to the point that he continuously committed heinous acts to capture the Avatar? People would justify it by saying Iroh wanted Zuko to realize the wrongs of his father and Nation by himself to shape him into his own person. But that is in no way the appropriate way to approach a physically, psychologically and mentally unstable and abused child. Zuko was a thirteen year old boy when he was burned and banished. This is where we go into his childhood. Zuko was raised like any other Fire Nation citizen. As we’ve seen in book 3 and in the Pirate comic book, The Fire Nation citizens were led to believe that the other Nations were ‘savages’ and ‘barbarians’. It villainizes the Fire Nation even more. The very fact that they would spread heinous lies against other people when they themselves were responsible for the war that ruined so many lives. But when you realize, what Sozin and the other Fire Lords did was a solid battle tactic. Making the opposing side out to be these horrendous monsters. Making lies or accentuating every one of their worst traits to dehumanize their enemies so that the people would not have any qualms about fighting them. All of the Fire Nation schools were taught these lies. And Zuko was no exception.

Zuko was a member of the Royal family. And from what was shown in the Avatar series, the Royal family was isolated from the rest of Fire Nation society. Zuko had no way of knowing what the other Nations were really like, no way of knowing the truth about the war and no one had bothered to explain it to him. The one person that could have, did NOT. And yet people had expected him to just automatically know that he was being lied to and that his people were the villains. Zuko’s only social exposure was with Fire Lord Azulon, Fire Lord Ozai, Dragon Of The West General and Crown Prince Iroh, his cousin Prince Lu Ten, his mother Princess Ursa and his younger sister Princess Azula and her friends Mai and Ty Lee. All of whom believed in the Fire Nation propaganda and all of whom had no problem in participating in the war and making jokes about burning Ba Sing Se to the ground. Zuko was under scrutiny and aggression from Ozai. Ozai was Zuko’s ‘handler’, his ‘groomer’. He groomed Zuko into a certain type of submissive and obedient behavior. Zuko was not allowed to show any type of emotion otherwise he would suffer severe repercussions. Ozai and Azula taunted Zuko for having a sense of compassion and with how he was ostracized in a war loving family, he began to believe his behavior and way of thinking was unusual. It was like Azula said to Mai, “Your mother had certain expectations of you and when you strayed from them you were shot down.” In Zuko’s case, the expectations he strayed from resulted in severe punishment. Ozai was willing to permanently disfigure and traumatize Zuko when he was a thirteen year old boy. It’s not unusual to think that his punishments towards Zuko would sometimes very likely be physical and many people even write alternate universes of the Avatar series where Ozai was even more abusive than he already was. He was a manipulative man who brainwashed his daughter into being his perfect, obedient little slave and manipulated his son into questioning his own sense of reality. He would tell him that Azula was born lucky and he was lucky to be born, cementing Azula’s view of herself of receiving everything she wanted and turning her personality toxic while he made Zuko feel inferior and faulty. If there was something wrong with him, his father would tell him and he needed to fix it. But he never could. He strayed towards his mother, who like Iroh, abandoned Azula because of Ozai’s manipulation and did nothing to help her like they ‘helped’ Zuko.

When Zuko was thirteen he wanted to ‘prove’ himself to his father by attending one of his war meetings. Zuko very likely only wished to do what his father wanted because by then, Iroh had abandoned him when he left after the Siege of Ba Sing Se, his mother disappeared and his grandfather and cousin were both dead. The only ones he had left of his family were his father and sister who both abused him and he only wished for their approval and their affection. Humans need mutual affection. Children who do not receive affection from their parents, tend to not take that type of neglect well. Because people need affection to properly function. Our parents love us from when we are young and that emotional connection is something very important to every human being’s mental state. However, Zuko’s only source of affection, his mother, was taken away from him. Azula herself, had no source of affection. Not from her mother, who thought she was demented from her father’s brainwashing, nor from her brother who feared her, nor from her father who used her as a tool. Returning to the day of the Agni Kai, Zuko wished to be of use to his father, he craved his affection because that is what the abuser does. They make you believe they are the only ones who can validate you and if you do not abide by their rules or follow their orders then you mean nothing. Zuko for the most part from what I could see in the flashback, held his promise and did not speak. But when he refused to back down when his people were in danger, Ozai was not pleased. This is because he is an abuser. He is Zuko’s ‘handler’ and when someone who is abusing another person witnesses this type of behavior, they have a feeling of loss of control. They desire control, they crave it, over the abusee especially. So when Zuko showed empathy towards the Fire Nation citizens and did not do as Ozai wished, he decided to ‘rectify’ that. In the most BRUTAL way possible. An Agni Kai. A public spectacle where he would establish dominance over his son, over his pawn and he would make a show of it. He would show everyone that HE was the one in control and NO ONE could defy him. When Zuko refused to fight Ozai, because of his love for his father, Ozai only saw that as a weakness. Ozai is a psychotic man. The fact that he did not have any problem in burning his son so cruelly shows that he does not have any sense of morals. Going back to Zuko, a thirteen year old child at the time, he had just been punished for disobedience, for straying from his father’s expectations, in the worst way possible.

Zuko did what many people would say is the right thing to do. He tried to defend his people from a cruel man intent on sending them to their deaths. But in doing so, he had defied his father and was punished for it. He was punished....for trying to HELP people. His life was essentially DESTROYED and he was thrown out of his home...for trying to help people. For showing empathy towards others. He was punished in the worst way possible for defying his father. His entire perception of right and wrong was thrown out of balance. He was taught that the war was right and that the Fire Lord, his father, was all knowing. And his mother tried to teach him kindness and her lessons of kindness got him punished. The amount of physical and mental damage he had sustained from such a punishment would in some cases be irreversible. Iroh was right there with Zuko and he did nothing. I CAN understand why he did not step in during the Agni Kai. He had been gone from the Fire Nation, his brother had taken the throne and he could have very well himself been punished severely for intervening. However, why did he allow Zuko to continue to believe he was the one at fault? Everyone of us has seen Zhao, has seen the way he treated Zuko during his banishment. Zuko very likely spent those entire two years before Aang’s arrival, being subjected to that type of behavior from everyone around him. All of them blamed him, all of them very likely said that he’d deserved what had happened to him. No one was on his side. He ended up turning aggressive and cruel towards others, because that was the way his father behaved and it was his empathy towards others that got him punished in the first place. He said in The Storm ‘the safety of the crew doesn’t matter’, just like the general that called the 41st division ‘fresh meat’. It was easier for Zuko to lash out at others and be aggressive than to let them see his vulnerabilities and hurt him for them again. It was the same with Song and her mother. Ozai tried to force him to be cruel, he tried to groom him the same way he did Azula. They dehumanized the other Nations and Zuko behaved the exact same way he was expected to. ‘Their compassion would cost them’. It was exactly the way his father wanted him to be. It was what Iroh did not wish for him, and yet despite claiming he thought of Zuko as a son, he did not in any way try to convince Zuko to give up his quest during the two years he had been searching for something that at the time was believed did not exist. The only instance we were shown of Iroh saying anything against his search, and even that is a stretch, was in the Western Air Temple episode where Zuko has a flashback of Iroh telling him that ‘destiny was a funny thing’ when Zuko said it was his destiny to capture the Avatar. Iroh had time to run the White Lotus, an antiwar organization for two YEARS maybe even longer and he did not think of taking two MINUTES to talk to Zuko, to ease him into realizing the wrongs of the war. Okay, yes he could have passed it off as character growth. But how do you expect a person, surrounded by people telling him he was at fault, he had no choice, either obey or never come back, to realize something like that? How do you expect an abuse victim to accept help all by themselves when their abuser forces them to depend on them? Did Iroh take him to some Earth Kingdom villages to see that they aren’t the vicious savages the Fire Nation portrays them to be? Did he take Zuko to the Southern Water Tribe to see the damage done to them at the hands of his own country? No. Instead he acted like an oblivious old man who had no interest other than Pai Sho and speaking proverbs that Zuko could not hope to understand.

Two years Zuko spent looking and looking and he turned desperate to the point that he was willing to do anything to go home. And then The Avatar finally returned. And then the people that Zuko was raised to perceive as brutal savages continued to stand in his way. And did Iroh intervene? No. He still did nothing. He allowed Zuko to continue his pursuit and turn into the worst possible version of himself. People say that Zuko should own up to the consequences of his actions. And he should. But would he have done those actions had Iroh stopped him earlier? Would he have done any of the things he did when the only remaining adult figure in his life had told him otherwise? Would he have listened to Iroh? The answer is yes. He was willing to do what Ozai had expected of him so why would he not listen to Iroh with time and patience instead of waiting till the last possible moment to do so? Children don’t automatically know right from wrong from the moment of their birth. They are taught by their parents, by the adults in their lives and Zuko had Ozai as his parental influence. And Iroh knew that. He knew the type of man his brother was and he did not try to overwrite his brother’s abuse to help his nephew until Zuko was already on the path of no return. When they became refugees Iroh still did nothing until they got to Ba Sing Se and until Zuko, again in an act of desperation, tried to capture Appa. That was when he FINALLY decided to step in. Three years since Zuko’s banishment, sixteen years of his father’s influence and abuse and he decides the very moment his nephew is close to the brink of insanity is the perfect opportunity to DESTROY his entire world view. He had worked day in and day out for two years before Aang appeared, only for his uncle, someone he TRUSTED, to tell him it was all for NOTHING. Two years of TORTURING himself. A year of fighting against his Nation’s enemies and SUDDENLY he’s being told it was all for nothing. When Iroh and Zuko reunited, Iroh told him he found his way again ‘on his own’ like how Zuko told Ozai he had to learn everything ‘on his own’. And they were both right. Zuko had no one to help him. He had to suffer through so much on his own, without anyone’s help and they’re SURPRISED he acted the way he did. When everything came to ahead in Ba Sing Se with Katara, people thought ‘Oh Zuko has changed he’s going to help Katara.’ And when he did not they HATED him for it.

The reason for this is because Katara was the ‘good guy’ and Zuko was the ‘bad guy’. Black and white. Katara and Zuko shared a moment of understanding from both losing their mothers and Katara offered to heal his scar and he chose to side with Azula and both Katara and the viewers saw this as a betrayal on Zuko’s part. This assumption however is completely unjustified and unfounded. Everyone sees Zuko and the Fire Nation as the bad guys. The villains of the story. But Katara and the Water Tribes and Earth Kingdom were the bad guys in the Fire Nation’s eyes. Katara was the ‘savage’ standing in the way of Zuko going home. The Avatar was his home’s greatest ENEMY and THREAT. Had the situation been reversed and Katara had to choose between Zuko and the Water Tribe and her brother and father, people would have supported her choice because they were the good guys. Zuko’s people were the bad guys so it had to be the wrong decision and a betrayal to Katara and Iroh. But Zuko was an unstable, traumatized child who did not wish to believe his people were bad, who did not want to fight his home after he spent so long trying to capture Aang, his home’s greatest THREAT and ENEMY. Katara hated Zuko because he represented everything that the Fire Nation did to her family. And Zuko hated her because she was the ‘savage’ keeping him from his one way home. To Zuko, Katara was the bad guy. And looking back at their moment of sympathy where Katara said he betrayed her trust I can only ask one thing....how could Zuko have known that Katara wasn’t trying to trick him? Now, the viewers would automatically respond ‘Katara’s not like that! She wouldn’t do that!’ but the fact is, we the viewers KNOW Katara. We know she’s not that type of person because we got to know her through out the series. Zuko does NOT know her. To Zuko, she’s just another faceless enemy out to KILL his father. He chose Azula’s side because he could not accept what Iroh was saying to him because why hadn’t Iroh said so sooner? He did not want to join Aang’s side cause this was the AVATAR. The one out to KILL his FATHER and take down his HOME. When Zuko returned, he was conflicted about what he had done because he had begun to see how wrong his father and sister’s behavior and The Fire Nation’s war truly was. And Iroh cemented that further by proclaiming Zuko’s struggle was because of Roku and Sozin’s conflict when that was clearly not the case. Zuko was groomed and brainwashed by the Fire Nation propaganda like every other citizen but he was not dispelled from that belief by anyone. No one tried to make him question that belief. Iroh did not try to ‘help Zuko’ until the very last moment in Ba Sing Se. People believe Zuko betrayed Iroh because that’s how it’s supposed to be when Zuko was the ‘bad guy’ and Iroh was the ‘caring’ Uncle and ‘voice of reason’. And yet he did not think to ‘reason’ with Zuko before this entire mess even started. He did not in any way try to disrupt Zuko’s view of the other Nations or his father. In my opinion, IROH was the one who betrayed ZUKO. Iroh KNEW the entire time that what Zuko was doing was wrong. Zuko was a child who was not allowed to think for himself and Iroh KNEW Zuko was brainwashed by the exact same propaganda he himself had believed before he lost his son. If Iroh, who had believed in the Fire Nation for so many years, was unable to realize the wrongs of the war until his ADULTHOOD when he lost his son, how in the world did he expect a 13 year old child to do so? And Zuko became even more unstable and then he chose the Fire Nation.

When he realized it was wrong and went to join team Avatar, they were reasonably mistrusting.

Zuko’s redemption arc from a simple perspective, from team Avatar’s perspective was very well done. Team Avatar did not know what Zuko had been through. To them he was just another Fire Nation monster who had hurt them. To the audience, he was just another Fire Nation monster who had hurt the good guys. No one would think that deep into a fictional character’s perspective or psychological and mental state. No one would think past the ‘good guy’ and the ‘bad guy’. But one thing I cannot justify is Katara’s accusation of betrayal towards Zuko. As we have mentioned, Zuko and Katara were enemies who had a mutual hatred towards each other before his ‘redemption’. They had one single moment of shared empathy and understanding and that is NOT the basis for earned trust. What would Katara have done had she been in Zuko’s shoes? Fighting her enemies, fighting people she sees as nothing more than monsters and she has to choose between her long time enemy and her sibling and her home and her family. If she was in that position, she would choose Sokka and Hakoda and Aang and the Water Tribe over Zuko in a heartbeat because those are her FAMILY members and her FRIENDS and people would justify her because she’s the ‘good guy’. The hero. But Zuko is the villain so his actions automatically AREN’T justifiable. I understand Katara’s mistrust towards Zuko because of their history and because again, she doesn’t know anything about him or what he went through. But she cannot expect him to just automatically leave behind everything he’s ever known and ever believed in because of one single moment of understanding. Zuko should have done everything he could to make it up to the group because he owed it to them and they again, did not know any of his reasons for hunting them. But Zuko does not deserve to be labeled simply as ‘a bad guy turned good’ when he was NEVER a bad guy to begin with. When he was never even mentally stable enough to make that type of decision for himself. In today’s day and age Zuko and Azula would have BOTH ended up in a mental institution. And after all of the things he went through, Zuko was the one who ended up going back to Iroh and apologizing when Iroh was the one who abandoned him and then Zuko at 16 years old ended up as the leader of a nearly fallen apart country. He had to suffer through insomnia, assassination attempts and mental instability and abandonment. Iroh left to Ba Sing Se and only made two appearances in a total of SIX comic books after the end of the War and one of those was entirely brief. So while Iroh gets to enjoy the rest of his life selling tea, Zuko has to suffer the consequences for what his family did. He was also abandoned by Mai which brings me to another point.

Zuko’s toxic relationships.

Some people say they dislike Mai because she is emotionally abusive towards Zuko. It never occurred to me before but looking at it now, I have to say that I agree. In the comics after book 2 had ended it was shown that Azula used Mai’s childhood crush on Zuko to manipulate him into going back to the Fire Nation with her. And Mai.....I don’t even know how to get started on the entire mess that is their relationship. Mai is a person who does not like emotion. She doesn’t like to express herself and immediately shuts down anything even close to emotion. The same applies to Zuko. Zuko is a very emotionally unstable and insecure person. And instead of reassuring and calming him, Mai immediately cuts him off whenever he loses a handle of his emotions and just flat out ends their relationship on the spot. She gives Zuko no explanation, just gets angry at him and then all of a sudden when Zuko can’t take anymore and explodes she suddenly says she cares about him. Their relationship is toxic. Mai demeans his problems and things that trouble him. Quote “I just asked if you were cold, I didn’t ask for your whole life story.” when Zuko was nervous about going back home. She demeans his guilt towards Iroh and tries to make him feel better by ordering servants around. And then in the Boiling Rock episode she attacks him for his letter which is reasonable on her part, but there is the problem that despite being Zuko’s girlfriend, up until that point she was Azula’s subordinate first and foremost and she could have tried to let Azula know. Still was a shitty way of ending their relationship, I’m not gonna act like it wasn’t but I still wanted to put that perspective out there just for thought. Not to mention how she ended things in the comic books. The trust issue I understand. But I don’t understand how ONE single mistake would lead to her just immediately ending things instead of at least TRYING to work it out. She could have listened to him and seen why he was so upset and scared of messing up that he went to Ozai of all people for help. She did not stick by him when he needed her and that was what forever ruined their relationship for me.

In simple terms, Zuko was a bad guy who became a good guy and redeemed himself.

In psychological terms, Zuko was an abuse victim who was brainwashed since his childhood, blamed for it and made into a scapegoat while his sister ended up in a mental institution because of her father’s influence and because the same people who ‘helped’ Zuko didn’t think she deserved it too.

So from what I’ve seen while rewatching the series....

Zuko never needed redeeming. Zuko needed help.

And he didn’t get it.

#avatar the last airbender #zuko #zuko deserved better #azula #azula deserved better #zuko needs therapy #azula needs therapy

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seyaryminamoto · 2 years

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If Azula had defected from the fire nation along with Zuko, do you think she would have been crowned fire lord in the finale? Imo, she would've been better suited for that role since she was obviously much more surrounded by police than Zuko was since she was never banished, and she shows good leadership and decision making in the show. She's also a lot more level headed than Zuko is, which is something that I think a good ruler needs.

Well... it's a complicated situation tbh. As far as competence and preparation are concerned, I agree entirely that Azula is far more ready for the role of Fire Lord than Zuko is. I've mentioned in other asks that Zuko's growth was personal, and while it's okay that he was intended to become a better person, that's only the first step towards becoming a good leader. Azula's successes and achievements suggest she's, indeed, a mess as a person but a lot more aware of what it takes to be a leader than her brother is.

Other arguments can be made in Azula's favor, such as that the Fire Nation people, unless the Final Agni Kai was made public (and in this case, you're suggesting a setting where the Agni Kai doesn't happen, outright), would likely have a more favorable opinion of Azula than of Zuko for the reasons you bring up. Her public perception is bound to be much better than his, she's bound to be known by nobles and military figures, so yes, she has a lot in her favor.

This being said...

I admit that I wasn't sure what to do with this particular dilemma when I wrote a very similar setting to the one you're proposing. Azula indeed ended up defecting from the Fire Nation in one of my stories in Sokkla Saturdays, Matching Heartbeats #5 + Underneath Starlit Skies #3, where she initially becomes a prisoner of the Gaang and ends up turning her life around by bonding with four dorks (especially with a certain boomerang dork with a similar sense of humor to her own) and realizing her father stands no chance against Aang in the Avatar State. This, eventually, results in her also identifying and coming to terms with the indoctrination of the Fire Nation upon seeing similar situations of indoctrination in Ba Sing Se... and in the end, she is pretty much completely reformed, redeemed, on board with Team Avatar and practically leading it with Sokka.

But when things came to a head... I found myself in a bit of an awkward situation. While it made sense for Azula to be Fire Lord... it also made sense for her not to want to be Fire Lord, upon reaching this point in her journey. She knew she had much left to learn, and she found she had changed and improved things for other people while being out in the field, achieving far more things than she ever did back when she was only Ozai's preferred heir. The concept of continuing to travel with her friends and her boyfriend made so much sense to her, especially when there were three possible candidates for the throne at that point (Azula, Zuko and Iroh). Truth is... I do love me some Fire Lord Azula, but I can't shake off this wicked worm of wickedness that suggests Azula would probably be in a much healthier place if she's just not assuming that her sole purpose in life and in the world is becoming Fire Lord. She could do amazing growth away from the throne, just as she could do it on the throne too... but if she's not there, she gets to put more distance between herself and the toxicity of the Fire Nation. She gets to have much more of a life, I'd say, than Zuko would if he becomes Fire Lord while she gets to have more or less freedom from such pressures.

Sooooooooooo...

My ultimate answer is yes, of course Azula could be Fire Lord instead of Zuko. I don't know if Zuko would accept that easily because he's absolutely convinced this is his birthright (... which it's not, it was Lu Ten's, Zuko has only believed the throne would be his since he was 11, supposedly), but if you don't have Azula in the throes of a breakdown that drives her out of control, the likelihood is Azula would defeat him in an Agni Kai if they truly want to fight over a throne. But... is it what's best for Azula? I won't even pretend that I don't think it's not what's best for the Fire Nation, I do believe it would be x'D maybe some could argue that Azula being Zuko's advisor could be better? But frankly, if someone truly thinks she'd be a good advisor they're inadvertently admitting she would be a good ruler just as well, it's pretty naïve to pretend that being an advisor is the only role she could have. Still... is this what will be best for Azula in the end?

I think it really hinges on how a writer wants to develop Azula's character, more than anything. My take in that particular AU was for her to end up finding she had so much more to explore and see in the rest of the world, and to acknowledge that the Fire Nation actually had never been as fulfilling and grand for her as traveling with her friends became. None of her bonds with people in the Fire Nation proved as strong and true as the ones she built with people from other nations. Thus... it made sense for her to feel a strong pull towards something other than the throne.

I'd even argue it's healthy that she doesn't want the throne desperately xD it's one of my main complaints over Zuko, he barely ever seems to consider the possibility of a future beyond the throne, if he ever did. It makes me feel his growth would be best suited by making him find purpose OUTSIDE the throne too, but I don't even know if he'd ever accept that? Anyway, bottom line is both Zuko and Azula probably would be in healthier places away from the throne if you really think about it. Who's better suited for it? Azula is certainly a better leader and better perceived by their people than Zuko would be (realistically speaking, that is). Zuko is older so in virtue of being the traditional firstborn child, he has a claim on the throne, and he's supposed to be the better person between them, so some people could argue that, if Azula defects without proper build-up, he'd have grown more by then than she would have, I guess? And he'd be more ready to cut ties with Ozai's legacy than Azula? Hence why they'd argue he'd be the better choice...?

... But frankly, I would say that both of them, at optimal situations, would do well on the throne. Admittedly, I don't think Zuko is at his optimal situation as he is in canon. Azula, of course, isn't at all at an optimal place in canon either. Working together could be a nice compromise but it would be a very idealistic one, and one that would require the two of them to grow up A LOT, to not be so prone to conflict and to really work together for the greater good :'D so it would take not only a proper redemption from the two of them but a ton of extra growth in which they'd both learn to be better siblings.

So yes, I believe Azula would be a great Fire Lord if given the choice and chance. I do believe the Fire Nation would thrive under Azula's rule, I have absolute confidence in her ability to steer the Fire Nation in the right path. I'm also highly Zuko-critical as everyone knows, ergo, I don't believe he's "fated" for a throne, nor do I think that his development in the show entitles him to a throne, nor do I think he's grown in every sense he really had to... so I don't adscribe at all to the belief that the throne was only ever meant for him because that's a really boring way to interpret the world. Like I've said before, the throne should have gone to Iroh after Azulon dies. Then to Lu Ten. Then to Lu Ten's children, if he'd had any. I love me my chaotic and interesting Fire Nation Royal Family, but I don't believe either Azula or Zuko were fated for a throne: thus why it's much more important for me that they grow up enough to become proper leaders, capable of handling the pressures of the role and truly guiding the Fire Nation out of the gross mess it's in over the war. Either one could have been Fire Lord, both had arguments in their favor (unfortunately, I fear tradition would have demanded Zuko became Fire Lord solely because male firstborn, which... bleh), and I will always believe Azula would have been an excellent Fire Lord if she's redeemed and at her best.

Still, I'd very much love it if either one taking the throne would have a chance to find purpose BEYOND that throne, and to have an identity OUTSIDE that throne, before becoming Fire Lord. That, personally, would be my take on the matter :'D No idea if I'm not being clear enough but I'm saying that yes, Azula could have done it, someone could absolutely write a setting where that happens (hell, I nearly did XD), but I would prefer it if a throne is not her sole motivation in life. All in all, being king, emperor, Fire Lord or what-have-you is a major responsibility. It's only a reward if you're a privileged asshole who has no idea how much impact your every choice would have on thousands of people, or has some idea but outright doesn't care about that and only is focusing on their own advancement, titles and achievements :'D hence, I really believe Azula could do it, but I do think proper growth for her character would be best served by showing her that she can achieve great things whether there's a five-pronged hairpiece on her head or not.

#akiizayoi4869 #that got long #as usual #sorry :'D #I am a rambler #that final conclusion is also true for Zuko #but what can I say #I've come to the conclusion that it's not Zuko himself I have issues with #but the writing around him #I legit have written some stuff with Zuko that feels... pretty effin' great #I'm outright rooting for him #I never thought it possible???#and that's how it just dawned on me that he's a mess of half-achieved potential and the better part of that potential #was just cut off the main canon because they didn't have time for it #or they flat-out didn't notice it I dunno at this point #but yes I want both of them to have lives outside a throne that is really all I ask at this point #Fire Lord Azula is a magnificent concept and I love it to pieces #but it's even more magnificent if she chooses that path while knowing there's more to life than this #yep yep yep

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comradekatara · 3 years

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Ok so, if you had to, hiw do you think momo gets along with the members of the gaang?

i love this question bc momo is honestly such a well-developed character in his own right and i think it’s so sweet how he has his own, distinct relationships with each member of the gaang

aang sees momo as one of his best friends. like, momo is definitely up there with katara, appa, bumi, for best best friends. he tells momo the secrets he’s too embarrassed to tell katara (there are some things you simply cannot tell to a pretty girl) or appa (he’s notoriously judgmental). momo’s great at keeping secrets, too, because he does not understand aang when he talks. but he’s a great listener.

katara also sees momo as a friend. when it’s just the two of them in ba sing se, she talks to him as if he is a person, even ordering a table for two at the jasmine dragon. she finds almost all of momo’s antics amusing, except for that one time he brought her everything under the sun other than water. but crucially, momo is her emotional support lemur, and she would be 30% more unhinged at all times if she could not hug momo like a teddy bear when in distress. funnily enough, momo sees katara as his emotional support human, so it’s a pretty symbiotic relationship, all told.

sokka is momo’s favorite, to speak plainly. as much as he loves aang and katara, momo views them more as peers, fun-loving kids who talk to him and hang out with him. with sokka, he’s more like an older brother type, maybe even a kind of father-son thing. granted, sometimes they trip on cactus juice together, but mostly sokka sees momo as another mouth to feed, another tiny babie to chaperone. luckily, sokka took to momo very quickly after his initial peace offering, so he does not resent momo in the slightest, and in fact, adores him a great deal. when not relying on their innards for his meals, sokka really loves animals, and animals love sokka. momo is sokka’s bestest baby boy and he loves his little lemur son with all his heart.

toph took some getting used to with momo, because he’s very quick and agile and spends a lot of time flying around in the air, so while reluctant to admit it, his unpredictability kind of catches her off-guard. but once aang notices this, he makes it his mission to get them comfortable with each other. he wants the whole family to get along, and besides, getting momo used to toph seems like an easier goal than with katara. eventually, toph stops feeling startled whenever momo will land on her shoulder, and instead pets his little head to let him know that he’s welcome. although sometimes they do still resent each other as they compete for sokka’s attention, though neither would ever admit it.

suki adores momo because how could she not?? he’s so cute!! as much as she loves sokka, and aang, and the others (in that order), momo (and appa) take(s) priority, because they are the best and the cutest and the goodest. momo loves suki because she is always doting on him and spoiling him rotten like a cool aunt/loving grandma, and suki keeps trying to make it her mission to get momo to prefer her over sokka, which becomes a running joke between the two of them. unfortunately for suki, momo will always love sokka more, because while suki makes momo feel loved & appreciated, sokka makes momo feel safe. but suki doesn’t mind, not really. she’ll take whatever love from momo she can get.

it takes momo a while to warm up to zuko, because he remembers when zuko used to be bad and scary and give aang and katara nightmares, but then he realizes that zuko is really warm all the time, which is super nice considering how chilly it would get in the western air temple at night, even in summer. plus, appa and aang really like him, which is a good sign. so they start developing a ritual where momo will curl up in zuko’s lap, and zuko will stroke him gently with his nice warm hands, and momo knows that zuko’s not really a bad guy after all.

mai’s not gonna lie – momo kind of freaks her out. look, appa is great, she loves appa, but momo is... small, spindly, and kind of, well, rat-like. and she gets that momo is an integral part of the gaang, and if she wants to be friends with these people, she has to also befriend their pet rat, for some reason, but momo is just... so odd. also momo hisses every time he sees tom tom, and that’s really freaky. yeah, she’s just not a fan, ok? sue her!!

ty lee likes momo fine. she’s used to being around lots of animals due to her time at the circus, so she knows how to take care of momo, but if we’re being honest, she also prefers appa. appa exudes a quiet wisdom, and he has such lush, soft fur. momo’s a bit too unpredictable for her. he’s perceptive and intelligent, which she appreciates, but he’s not trained the way circus animals are, which probably a good thing because those animals are very mistreated, but also she cannot control momo, and she isn’t really a fan of situations she can’t control. but yeah, like, he’s cute.

azula also thinks momo is an oversized rat. it is the one thing she and mai ever truly agree on.

none of iroh’s charm works on momo. he doesn’t understand anything he says, he doesn’t drink tea, and whenever he tries to play pai sho sokka yells at him (probably because he isn’t too keen on the rules). so momo sees iroh as just another old man, one who hangs around quite a bit, granted, but really he’s just that grandpa his friends know. shrug

and of course, appa. momo loves appa. they’re sort of like siblings, i suppose. appa is the big brother, momo is the little brother (and aang is the middle brother, tbh). once momo meets appa, he never wants to leave his side. something about seeing a sky bison for the first time in his life feels like coming home, somehow, in a way he could never fully articulate. losing appa breaks momo’s heart, and he tries to let appa know this upon reuniting in his own, momo way. they both share this innate knowledge that there should be more of their kind, and that it’s strange, and sad, that they only have each other. but, at least they do.

#phoenix-before-the-flame #asks #the gaang and #momo #not tagging everyone but #aang&momo #appa&momo #momo&sokka #katara&momo #momo&toph #momo&suki #momo&zuko #god i wish i could give momo a little kiss on his little forehead #my brother is obsessed w momo #i shouldve asked him to write this ask lmao #i cannot believe i wrote this much about a monkey #but also oh wait yes i can

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visit-ba-sing-se · 4 years

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For another friendship we never really got: Iroh and Bumi

This is great and I mean even though we never see it in canon it definitely could be (since they are both members of the white lotus after all). Thank you (and the other anon who asked about this) for giving me a reason to shout into the void here about them:

First of all and looking back, Iroh was waging war against the earth kingdom and wanted to burn their capital to the ground (literally writes so in a letter to Ursa.) So, after he recognized his mistakes and became a member of the white lotus (because him being part of that organization during his siege on Ba Sing Se would just not make sense, and I do not think canon gives us any information on that) he probably did not know much about earth benders except for how to fight them. But he now wanted to reconcile and learn, and Bumi was there to share. Of course, he was a bit skeptical at first and used the chance to mess with Iroh (”Yes, it is costume to drink boiling mud water in the earth kingdom, I can’t believe you were so busy conquering that you did not even notice“). However, he grew more and more fond of him the he realized that Iroh was serious on wanting to learn and had an equally off sense of humor

What would then make them an amazing duo is that they are both such out of the box thinkers. One one hand, we have Bumi, whose tag line is to move and act like a mad genius. When it come to his bending, we see that the moves he uses partly seem to be Airbender inspired (like his spiral upward), and we see him using bone bending during the battle over Ba Sing Se, which is a completely new sub-style of earth bending (and I would say that it is safe to assume he also developed that himself)

On the other hand, we have Iroh, who always emphasizes how important it is to draw inspiration from many sources. The most prominent example of how he puts his own wisdom to use his learned how to redirect lightning from studying water benders.

Those two definitely would enjoy discovering new techniques together by learning form each other and studying each others styles (also yes, they went on a trip together to learn lava bending. Also yes, both of their beards got slightly burned but what a small piece to pay fro greatness. „I wanted to cut it anyway, nephew, did you not hear that this is now the latest fashion in Ba Sing Se?“ „Uncle, it is the lasted fashion in the earth kingdom because Bumi made his whole stuff water it like that after you to returned. And no, we will not be enforcing the same thing here“)

Also, they both have a thing for teaching even though their method might be a bit different. The whole point behind the challenges Bumi gave Aang was to teach him to thing creatively, and Iroh always put great effort into teaching Zuko basically anything. So they would love passing those techniques on

Beyond that, they would totally make use of the fact that they look like to respectable old men to fool with people and enjoy their surprised faces when they wreck absolut havoc (one of them pretend to be a fragile old king just to reveal being totally ripped and wanting to wrestle with the Avatar, the other dramatically took a sip of tea before taking out a bunch of day li with his breath of fire. Don’t tell me they do not have the same energy, and also do not tell me there is not a lot of potential)

Tbh I believe they actually would wreck havoc a lot. I know that is a common perception of Iroh that he is a very wise and thoughtful man, but as @nothing-more-than-hot-leaf-juice put in an amazing post, we really should not overestimate his impulse control. Keep in mind, this man used a poisonous plant to make tea just because it could have been delicious while being completely aware of the risk)

On the other hand, this of course does not mean that they can not come up with wise and serious solutions when needed. I believe they would each also value the other council a lot

Finally, the would always play pai sho together but of course try to cheat the other. (Bumi earth bends the pieces when Iroh looks ways for moment. Little does he know the reason Iroh looked away was to make sure that Toph, who he had promised to teach lava beding in exchange for a little support, is still at her spot)

#bumi #iroh #toph #avatar #zuko #atla #atla hc #anon love #i feel like i should get a tag for all those friendship posts #also this could be canon honestly #I am just filling the balnks #friendships that transcendent canon #<- tag for more friendships that should have been

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zukoscomet · 3 years

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First of all, I wanted to say that your work "stupid electric heart" is just amazing, I love everything about it! And now I am haunted by the scene where Katara and Zuko tell their friends and relatives about the fact that they have a relationship. Something like:

Katara: Zuko and I love each other.

Sokka: Is the water wet and?

Toph: *silently passes the money to Iroh*

Toph: Sugar Queen, why now, another six months and this money would be mine!

Suki: This is a very nice ad, but you are literally the last who will know about it.

Iroh: I'm so glad that I don't have to pretend anymore that I don't notice your sad looks that you throw at each other!

Aang: We literally came up with a name for your couple. Zuko: Have you come up with a word for our couple?!

Toph: Well, it's shorter than calling you "two idiots who are too afraid to tell about their feelings, so they prefer to yearn in silence"

Anon, this is a great concept for a fic, thank you for sending it my way!

I love this idea of prior expectation for some of the characters you mentioned. Like Iroh recognises the importance of the bond between Katara and Zuko in canon, so it makes perfect sense he'd anticipate something more between the Southern Ambassador and the Fire Lord (and would subtly-not-subtly try and encourage it when the feelings are being denied).

Toph also knows it's deeper with Katara and Zuko all along. I like Toph being the most perceptive one of the group just in a general sense - she's the most honest and direct; she 'sees' things how they are - but she can hear those hearts go thump thump thump too much for it not to be more.

Suki, in my mind, would have quite strong relationships with both Katara and Zuko after the war so she almost ends up seeing it through their eyes - like she can see the impact that Katara has on Zuko, how different it is from how he responds to others, and vice versa, so it becomes pretty clear from the beginning.

But I have to say I'm a fan of the Very Oblivious Sokka take. Like after Katara and Zuko tell him they're dating, he looks back on the past few years and it all seems so inevitable and obvious and Sokka has a kind of existential crisis like what else have I not seen??? We see in the show that Sokka is very creative, so I headcanon he daydreams a lot and is very focused on his own field of influence - not in a rude way, that's just how his brain works. So when he was actually living through all Katara and Zuko's relationship development, he just... never really noticed it, or never really thought about it too much, so it comes as a big surprise initially.

For A/ang, I actually like the idea that he doesn't respond well to finding out about Katara and Zuko being together romantically at first. What I personally dislike about A/ang is that he really lacks growth as a character, especially towards the end of the series, and since I like writing ZK so much, it makes sense to me that I'd use their relationship as kind of a device to right my issues with A/ang.

We see in the show that Katara tends to be soft and placating and A/ang is hopeful and persistent, so maybe when she and A/ang break up, he gets the impression that it's not forever. The years that Katara then spends in the South Pole without another love interest cropping up just compounds that idea in his mind. When Katara goes to the Fire Nation as Ambassador, A/ang actually thinks that it's a good thing for him - she's out and travelling again, being present for world affairs, both of which suit him in terms of them being together. A/ang thinks it's only a matter of time - that Katara will want to get back together in the very near future - so when Katara and Zuko share that they're dating, it's a massive shock.

A/ang is devastated, feels deeply betrayed by both of them and some sort of confrontation ensues that the entire Gaang is present for. Katara and maybe Zuko, too, try to handle it in a conciliatory way but Sokka has it up to here seeing Katara always having to sacrifice things. It's not discussed as much as it should be but, from the episode when A/ang accidentally burns Katara's hands, Sokka is canonically very protective of Katara and isn't afraid to act (Off topic but I think that's why Sokka isn't really mentioned in LOK; at the very least, he never would have stood for A/ang treating Bumi and Kya like he did). Maybe when Katara gets upset, he says something to A/ang along the lines of I get that this isn't what you wanted but after all my sister has done for you, why couldn't you just let her have this one moment???

After that, after realising that no one is really on his side of the argument except to be supportive/consolatory, A/ang maybe leaves and spends a while cut off from everyone at one of the Air Temples. I'm not exactly sure of how he'd come across his moment of acceptance and moving on from it, but eventually he comes back and apologises, says that he's happy that two of his best friends have found love with each other. It's a bit of a sore spot for a while after still but in a very different way - for instance when Katara and Zuko have their first baby, A/ang is a bit envious but because he wants to be loved and settled, because he wants to not be the only airbender anymore; it's never over Katara specifically, and A/ang ends up just as supportive as the rest in the end.

#you know what i love a/ang #just the version of a/ang in my head where he gets the chance to actually grow as a person #anon i'm sorry i waffled again #i hope it's at least vaguely interesting for you???#zutara #asks

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sokkagatekeeper · 3 years

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i really appreciate u bringing up people ignoring toph’s blindness in exchange for hcing her as having other (non physical) disabilities. i also wonder if you have any thoughts about people engaging with the possibility of her having other non-canon disabilities in addition to her blindness in good faith, without ignoring or sidelining her blindness? either way, thank you for pointing that out!

well. if there is any headcanon of the “toph has a neurodivergent/other disability” sort that doesn’t base itself on “proof” that is actually textually attributed to toph... being already disabled, basically, and thus doesn’t minimize or at absolute worse ignore that toph is canonically blind and thus disabled then sure. why not. of course i can give it a chance.

unfortunately though i have yet to see such a post. because the thing about writing a character as disabled in any sort of way is that you must always consider the effect said disability (or any sort of factor that makes them a minority,,, like honestly) has on that character’s socialization, relationships, and self-perception. a lot of toph’s character is related to her blindness (and if you know which post i’m talking about, i mean a Lot of the things that make toph’s complexity are about her being disabled, yes, BLIND) and to consider how toph having, say, adhd, would or would have affected her regarding her upbringing, relationships, and perception of herself, the same way her blindness has an effect on all these factors.

zuko’s character, for example, already contains all the complexities and nuances of how he would have been/was socialized and thus how it affected his relationships (with iroh, as the most obvious example) and his self-perception. this is why the “headcanon” (i prefer analysis, but whatever) of zuko being autistic fits perfectly in the text; because it is already in the text.

i think that for the excellently written character that is toph specifically as a disabled character, this fandom tends to oversimplify or plainly ignore the complexities of toph’s blindness down to the simplest ones, mind the irony. i don’t mean to generalize or be a bitch, and i do agree that zuko and katara present a lot of autistic traits, as aang and sokka are very obviously dealing with adhd. but things like wanting to assign a disability that has no actual basis on the text to toph when an awful (awful) lot of the so-called said basis of this analysis/headcanon/whatever is that toph is already disabled in a well-written complex and thoughtful way, sometimes it does sound a lot to me like toph is “not disabled enough” for some of you.

in conclusion enough of people inserting a minority label on every character as if they’re filling a coloring book, just watch the show thoughtfully instead of doing such an elaborate performative and frankly tone-deaf post for woke points idk what else to tell y'all okay byeeeee

#this is a mess of an answer but whatever #n #anon #asks #*#toph

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my-bated-breath · 4 years

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Research Shows that Zutara Would Have Been the Ideal Friends to Lovers Dynamic

(featured below: a very self-indulgent Zutara post that uses Facts and Evidence to be self-indulgent)

When I joined the ATLA fandom, a common trend I've seen used to discredit Zutara was the belief that upon transitioning from a platonic relationship to a romantic one, Zuko and Katara would immediately become The Worst (TM) for each other. It's quite the stretch, and the Zutara fandom nearly unanimously recognizes that. Still, since the attacks have yet to cease even 15 years after the show’s first release, I'd like to add my two-cents on the subject, along with a reference to actual research that is much harder to dismiss.

The reason why Zutara is framed as a “toxic and unhealthy” relationship is that their romance would be a classic example of the enemies-to-lovers trope, a trope which modern media has not been particularly kind to. However, when executed correctly, enemies-to-lovers can produce a healthy and loving relationship, frequently relying on friendship as an intermediate between the “enemy” and “lover” stages in the most well-executed versions of this trope. Meanwhile, the trope of friends-to-lovers is just as popular as enemies-to-lovers, though the specific dynamic required between two individuals to achieve this transition is not well-known. Recognizing this, Laura K. Guerrero and Paul A. Mongeau, both of whom are involved in relationship-related research as professors at Arizona State University, wrote a research paper on how friendships may transition into romantic relationships.

While “On Becoming ‘More Than Friends: The Transition From Friendship to Romantic Relationship” covers a variety of aspects regarding how friends may approach a budding romantic relationship, this meta will focus on the section titled “The Trajectory from Platonic Friendship to Romantic Relationship,” which describes stages of intimacy that are in common between platonic and romantic relationships.

(I am only using this one source for my meta because as much as I love research and argumentative writing, I can only give myself so much more school work before I break. If you wish to see more sources that corroborate the argument from above, refer to the end of this meta at the “Works Cited.”)

According to Guerrero and Mongeau, “...scholars have argued that intimacy is located in different types of interactions, ranging from sexual activity and physical contact to warm, cozy interactions that can occur between friends, family members, and lovers…” Guerrero and Mongeau then reference a relationship model where the initial stages (i.e. perceiving similarities, achieving rapport, and inducing self-disclosure) reflect platonic/romantic intimacy through communication while the latter stages (i.e. role-taking, achieving interpersonal role fit, and achieving dyadic crystallization) often see both individuals as achieving a higher level of intimacy that involves more self-awareness.

Definitions, because some terminology in this quote is field-specific:

_____

Perception of similarity: (similar in background, values, etc.) which contributes to pair rapport

Pair rapport: produces positive emotional and behavioral responses to the partner, promotes effective communication and instills feelings of self-validation

Self-disclosure: a process of communication by which one person reveals information about themselves to another. The information can be descriptive or evaluative and can include thoughts, feelings, aspirations, goals, failures, successes, fears, and dreams, as well as one's likes, dislikes, and favorites.

Role-taking: ability to understand the partner's perspective and empathize with his/her role in the interaction and the relationship

Role-fit: partners assess the extent of their similarities in personality, needs, and roles

Dyadic crystallization: partners become increasingly involved with each other and committed to the relationship and they form an identity as a committed couple

_____

(Source: Quizlet -- not the most reliable source, I know, but once again field-specific terms tend to be ubiquitous in their definitions, and I doubt that this Quizlet can be that inaccurate)

(Additional note: only the first three definitions will be relevant to this meta, but the other definitions are left in for all of you who want to speculate what the next part of this meta, which may or may not be published the following week, will be about.)

Let’s apply what we just learned back to the real Zuko-Katara relationship we see throughout the show. What attributes of healthy and natural friends-to-lovers dynamics may they check off?

Perceiving similarities:

Zuko and Katara share an astounding number of parallels in background and character throughout the show. Both their mothers had sacrificed their lives to save them, and then there are many deliberate parallels drawn between Zuko and Katara’s confrontations in the Day of Black Sun and The Southern Raiders, respectively. Of course, there are more, but since I do not have much to add to this subject, I’ll say that perceiving these similarities helps contribute to…

Pair rapport:

We see three standout examples of this from the show in which Zuko and Katara “make positive emotional and behavioral responses” towards each other: In the Crossroads of Destiny, the Southern Raiders, and Sozin's Comet, Part 2: The Old Masters.

(1) Crossroads of Destiny. Zuko and Katara bond over the loss of their mothers in the Crystal Catacombs, allowing themselves to truly see the other for the first time as well as for them to speak civilly and intimately (is this self-disclosure I see?) with each other. Of course, their conversation (on-screen or off-screen) is meaningful enough for Katara to offer to use the Spirit Oasis water to heal Zuko’s scar.

(2) The Southern Raiders. The journey Zuko and Katara take for her to achieve closure (which is something Zuko himself knew was necessary to heal and grow) is the catalyst for Katara forgiving Zuko. Though there is no true “rapport” in the scene where Katara forgives him, all other banter/conversations (in the Ember Island Players and the ATLA finale) between Katara and Zuko are reliant on the moment she forgives him.

(3) Sozin's Comet, Part 2: The Old Masters. In the finale, Zuko experiences a moment of uncertainty before just before he faces his uncle -- his uncle who had always been there for him since the days of his banishment, his uncle had loved him unconditionally even when Zuko did not know that such love was possible, his uncle who loved him like his own son, his uncle who he betrayed in the Crystal Catacombs, his uncle who turned away when he was encased in crystal, too disappointed to look him in the eye. He tells this to Katara -- and what does Katara say to Zuko in response?

“Then he'll forgive you. He will.”

The dialogue speaks for itself. The positive emotional response, the open communication, and the (rightful) encouragement Katara provides, all without invalidating Zuko’s self-doubt, demonstrates the epitome of pair rapport. Further elaboration would simply be me gushing over their dynamic.

Self-disclosure:

Self-disclosure involves revealing intimate feelings. We’re revisiting the same three episodes that we covered up above since they all include self-disclosure.

(1) The Crossroads of Destiny. When he reaches out in the Crystal Catacombs, Zuko reveals something to Katara that he has never told anyone before, perhaps something he didn’t even want to admit to himself -- in response to “the Fire Nation took my mother away from me” he says “that's something we have in common.” And to say that out loud, to say it to himself and Katara when for three whole years he’s been trying to convince himself that the Fire Nation is good and that his father loves him -- there are no words to describe it. It’s both awe-inspiring and heartbreaking to see that Zuko and Katara’s shared pain is what allowed them to see each other as more than the “face of the enemy,” and it’s something so poignant that it forms an immediately profound connection between the two.

(2) The Southern Raiders. On their way to the Fire Nation communications tower on Whale Tail Island, Katara tells the story of her mother’s death, a story that has haunted her memories for years, looming over her as a ghost, a wound that festers into fear to grief to anger. This was the moment that divided Katara’s life into the Before and the After, the one that forced her to abandon childhood and to become a mother to her own brother (as implied by Sokka in his conversation with Toph in the Runaway). And yet this is the first time we see her tell someone her story in the show, full and vivid as if it happened yesterday. Because even though she mentioned her mother before to Aang, Haru, and Jet in order to sympathize with them -- it’s just that. Sympathizing. This time she tells Zuko about her mother’s death for her own sake rather than for another’s. And it’s an incredibly intimate moment, one that is made even more fragile, wrenching, and beautiful by Zuko’s response -- “Your mother was a brave woman.”

(3) Sozin's Comet, Part 2: The Old Masters. Throughout the second half of season 3, Zuko shares his love and insecurities regarding Iroh to every member of the GAang.

In the Firebending Masters, he mentions to Aang offhandedly -- and perhaps too offhandedly, as if he didn’t want to believe it himself -- that Iroh, Dragon of the West, received his honorary title for killing the last dragon.

An episode later in part one of the Boiling Rock, Zuko talks about his uncle with near constancy. He brews tea for the GAang and (endearingly) tries retelling “Uncle’s favorite tea joke.” He tells Sokka, “Hey, hold on. Not everyone in my family is like that… I meant my uncle. He was more of a father to me. And I really let him down.” He (fails at, adorably) giving advice to Sokka when the rescue mission to the Boiling Rock has begun to look helpless, asking himself “what would Uncle say?” before completely floundering away.

Then, in the Ember Island Players, he shares a sweet moment with Toph, bitterly spitting out that

“...for me, [the play] takes all the mistakes I've made in my life, and shoves them back in my face. My uncle, he's always been on my side, even when things were bad. He was there for me, he taught me so much, and how do I repay him? With a knife in his back. It's my greatest regret, and I may never get to redeem myself.”

Toph, in turn, reveals the thoughtful side to her character, the side that is almost always hidden, telling Zuko that “you have redeemed yourself to your uncle. You don't realize it, but you already have.”

And every one of these moments matter, because we see Zuko’s inner conflict (though this inner conflict does not exist to the extent at which it did at the first half of season 3) and its evolution. First, with Aang, he remains skeptical and disillusioned. Second, with Sokka, his longing for Iroh’s love and presence manifests itself in him imitating his uncle as well as he can. Third, with Toph, he finally admits everything he had been afraid of ever since he saw Iroh’s empty prison cell during the eclipse -- that Iroh is disappointed in him. That Iroh hates him. That Iroh will never accept him again.

And for a moment, with Toph’s encouraging response and Zuko’s resulting little smile, it appears as though Zuko’s internal conflict arc is concluded. But we are wrong -- because in the finale of the show, we are given the true climax and resolution to Zuko’s insecurities, fears, and self-loathing. And who is it that he shares this moment with?

It speaks volumes about Zuko and Katara’s relationship that Katara is the one to comfort Zuko in this scene, in that last moment of hesitation right before he steps inside his uncle’s tent, preparing himself to see his uncle as a completely changed person. As a person who now knows humility and unconditional love. And remember -- selecting Katara to be in this scene is a deliberate narrative choice because ATLA was written by a team of producers and writers, and perhaps even if it wasn’t, it becomes a powerful moment in which Zuko’s arc with Iroh reaches its peak.

Simply having Katara there in this scene already has such a great narrative impact, but then the show gives us some of the most intimate dialogue that Zuko, a naturally closed-off person, delivers (although his emotional outbursts may suggest otherwise, Zuko tends to hide most of his internally conflicting feelings to himself. Hence, he is always able to dramatically monologue about his honor, his country, and his throne -- because he’s trying to convince himself to play a part. But that’s another meta for another day).

Let’s begin by comparing Toph and Zuko’s dialogue with Katara and Zuko’s dialogue because both see the other party validating Zuko’s feelings.

(Warning: the following section plunges deep into the realm of speculation and overanalyzing dialogue. Regarding literature or any media, there are countless ways to interpret the source material, and this is simply one way it could be done.)

_____

Ember Island Players Dialogue:

Toph: Geez, everyone's getting so upset about their characters. Even you seem more down than usual, and that's saying something!

Zuko: You don't get it, it's different for you. You get a muscly version of yourself, taking down ten bad guys at once, and making sassy remarks.

Toph: Yeah, that's pretty great!

Zuko: But for me, it takes all the mistakes I've made in my life, and shoves them back in my face. My uncle, he's always been on my side, even when things were bad. He was there for me, he taught me so much, and how do I repay him? With a knife in his back. It's my greatest regret, and I may never get to redeem myself.

_____

Although Toph and Zuko’s dynamic is one of the most innocent and understanding throughout the show, the conversation begins with Toph joking with a negative connotation -- that “even [Zuko seemed] more down than usual, and that’s saying something!” Thus, the conversation opener is not one that allows for Zuko to easily be emotionally vulnerable, and so he responds bitterly and angrily -- “You don’t get it, it’s different for you” and “...and how do I repay him? With a knife in his back.” By stating that their portrayals in the shows were different, Zuko mentally places a wall between himself and Toph, saying that “[Toph doesn’t] get it.” Then, the rhetorical question Zuko asks himself and the shortness with which he answers the question showcases a forceful and biting tone, indicating that he is covering up his inner turmoil with vehemence. This tendency is something we’ve seen Zuko default to before, whenever he had shouted the oft-mocked “I must restore my honor!” lines in response to a few introspective questions Iroh had asked (though once again, that’s another meta for another day). Now, let’s examine the remainder of their conversation.

_____

Ember Island Players Dialogue Continued:

Toph: You have redeemed yourself to your uncle. You don't realize it, but you already have.

Zuko: How do you know?

Toph: Because I once had a long conversation with the guy, and all he would talk about was you.

Zuko: Really?

Toph: Yeah, and it was kind of annoying.

Zuko: Oh, sorry.

_____

Here we see Toph and Zuko’s conversation take a more serious turn as Toph becomes more sincere. Zuko, however, is still full of self-doubt as he is constantly questioning Toph with “how do you know?” and “really” and “oh, sorry.”

(featured up above: Zuko looking dejected and doubtful.)

Still, the conversation ends on a sweet and inspiring note:

_____

Ember Island Players Dialogue Continued:

Toph: But it was also very sweet. All your uncle wanted was for you to find your own path, and see the light. Now you're here with us. He'd be proud.

_____

Hence, though Zuko and Toph’s conversation displays a heartening and hopeful dynamic, Zuko is ultimately still guarded for the majority of their conversation. Now, let’s look at how Katara approaches Zuko in the Sozin’s Comet, Part 2: The Old Masters.

_____

Sozin’s Comet, Part 2: The Old Masters Dialogue:

Katara: Are you okay?

Zuko: No, I'm not okay. My uncle hates me, I know it. He loved and supported me in every way he could, and I still turned against him. How can I even face him?

Katara: Zuko, you're sorry for what you did, right?

Zuko: More sorry than I've been about anything in my entire life.

_____

In direct contrast to the conversation opener with Toph, Katara begins to engage Zuko with an openly concerned question. And even though Katara never disappointed an Iroh-figure in her life in the way Zuko has, Zuko immediately doesn’t close himself off from her, he doesn’t create a wall that prevents him from revealing his deepest fears to her. During this scene, he neither sounds bitter or angry -- he sounds lost, doubtful, and afraid (perhaps even afraid to hope). This shift in tone is blatant in his voice (thanks to Dante Basco’s line delivery) but even with nothing but the written dialogue, we can note the difference in which he describes his turmoil to Toph and as compared to Katara:

With Toph: “But for me, it takes all the mistakes I've made in my life, and shoves them back in my face. My uncle, he's always been on my side, even when things were bad. He was there for me, he taught me so much, and how do I repay him? With a knife in his back. It's my greatest regret, and I may never get to redeem myself.”

With Katara: “No, I'm not okay. My uncle hates me, I know it. He loved and supported me in every way he could, and I still turned against him. How can I even face him?”

With Katara, the underlying bitterness from his conversation with Toph is toned down to the point of nonexistence, though a part of it is still there. With Toph, Zuko says, “it takes all the mistakes I’ve made in my life, and shoves them back in my face,” which is a rather incensed statement. Meanwhile, by saying, “no, I'm not okay. My uncle hates me, I know it,” Zuko directly addresses his self-loathing without the use of language such as “shoves them back in my face,” the latter of which is reminiscent of how individuals may unthinkingly reveal information in a sudden emotional outburst.

Then, when Katara asks him if he’s sorry for what he did, the words come easily to Zuko, the most easily he admits to his own mistakes after three years of not admitting anything truthful to himself: “More sorry than I've been about anything in my entire life.”

And Katara, just as Toph did, says with the utmost confidence and sincerity, “Then he'll forgive you. He will.”

This moment of affirmation that runs parallel between both dialogues is where Zuko’s responses begin to diverge. Whereas Zuko reacts to Toph with disbelief and doubt, this is how he reacts once he hears Katara’s words:

He takes Katara’s words to heart and accepts them. Because out of all the GAang, Katara is the one who knows the most about forgiving him, who most keenly feels the change he underwent since his betrayal in the catacombs. And so he stands, still nervous but no longer afraid, facing forward towards the future instead of back into his past.

Iroh and Zuko’s relationship is one of the most important ones throughout the entire show, so to see Katara play a pivotal role in a critical point in their dynamic shows just how important Katara’s character is to Zuko (and vice versa, though in here I do touch upon the former in more detail).

Although my analysis on the self-disclosure between Zuko and Katara may have run away from me a bit (due to my love for far-too-in-depth critical analysis), these all show an undeniable bond between Zuko and Katara, displaying a profound friendship rooted in narrative parallels, mutual understanding, and interwoven character arcs. Ultimately, their fulfillment of perceived similarities, pair rapport, and (the one I rambled most on) self-disclosure is what establishes Zuko and Katara as not just a strong platonic bond -- but one that has the potential to transition into a romantic one.

Thus concludes my essay on Zutara’s friendship and its connection with the initial stages of intimacy that are shared between both platonic and romantic bonds. After all that analysis, it would be remiss to simply dismiss the Zutara dynamic as one that would instantly become toxic should they pursue a romantic relationship.

That being said, I will explore the possibility of a romantic relationship between Zuko and Katara and how this connects to the latter stages of intimacy -- role-taking, interpersonal role fit, and dyadic crystallization -- in part 2 of this meta-analysis. Click on the link if you want to read it!

Part 2

Works Cited

(only partially in MLA 8 format because I want to live a little)

Close Relationships: A Sourcebook. By Clyde A. Hendrick & Susan S. Hendrick. Link

“Nonverbal behavior in intimate interactions and intimate relationships.” By P.A Andersen, Laura K. Guerrero, & Susanne M. Jones. Link

“On Becoming ‘More Than Friends’: The Transition From Friendship to Romantic Relationship.” By Laura K. Guerrero & Paul A. Mongeau. Link

The Psychology of Intimacy (The Guilford Series on Personal Relationships). By Karen J. Prager. Link

(If you check some of these links, you may note a few of these sources have been cited quite a few times. With just a bit more research, it appears possible to find a plethora of other sources to corroborate the theory of shared platonic-romantic intimacies.)

Thank you all for reading!

#atla #atla meta #zutara #zutara meta #my bated breath analyzes #research on relationship intimacy #influenced by academic writing #i have more metas coming soon #but until then you can find that i do other writing as well #like fanfiction #check out my fanfiction on the My Writing tab on my blog #please like and reblog to prove Zutara with Facts and Evidence everyone #my bated breath's posts

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