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#I feel like the tragedy of viserys and dany is they really might have been close and loved each other normally of they'd been allowed to
hylialeia · 10 months
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you don't get it. she loved him once. she didn't have a maester, she had a brother. he sold their mother's crown to keep them fed. he said Dany, please. she loved him, once.
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shipcestuous · 2 years
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If we're going to talk about disappointment and widowhood as the Greek mythology anon said, I really am a Targaryen incest widow and unfortunately the adaptation of Dance with Dragons doesn't appeal to me at all. I've tried to piece together some random thoughts I have about.
1. There's enough canonical incest in Dances with Dragons, but it's overshadowed by war. It's basically tragedy. Rhaenyra and Daemon married to people they don't love (like most in ASOIAF) and having children with these people before getting together. The poor Helaena married to her brother and being forced to choose between her children. I should probably be used to it, there are things like that throughout the writing, but Dance with Dragons is especially gory and stands out in my mind more negatively than others eras. I will probably read AU fanfics when they exist.
2. Totally a matter of taste, but I would much prefer an adaptation of the Blackfyre Rebellions. See the beautiful Shiera Seastar and her relationship with her brothers. well, there's war, there's tragedy too, but in my opinion nothing compares to Dance with Dragons.
3. It probably won't happen for a while, but an adaptation of Conquest of the Targaryens is not something I would be happy to see, I mean I would certainly appreciate the cast choice, they did a fantastic job on House of Dragon, but seeing Visenya being passed over by Rhaenys? That's not how a romantic threesome is supposed to work. well, Rhaenys dies and so and so, but the son of Visenya is known as Maegor the cruel, the current Targaryen lineage is not even directly related to her, it comes from Rhaenys' son Aenys. Did she really get nothing good out of this marriage? I know Visenya was an amazing strong woman, that's why I admire her, but her resilience in dealing with Aegon and Rhaenys is commendable, I would hate them. Another Targaryen incest I wouldn't want to see.
Fourth point, which should actually be the first, Viserys/Daenerys had SO much potential. It ended before it started with Viserys' early death, and I feel like it's so disappointing, and that the things might be different if Viserys wasn't so...weak. I honestly never understood why Viserys never went to Dorne. With the right persuasion they would help with a promise to avenge Elia, and though they would not putting Rhaegar's crimes under Viserys's head, I doubt they would want to see another Princess Martell on the Iron Throne anytime soon. I don't think it would all be over if he married Daenerys. What went through his mind to marry his sister to that man and think he could reclaim the throne that way is beyond my comprehension and I will never truly understand.
Also, there are no fanfics that do justice to this couple out there, I'm sure Dany's life would be better with a stronger, more loving Viserys.
There aren't many Daenerys/Rhaegar around either, in fact hardly any, I don't like Rhaegar Targaryen, he's a scum but he's handsome and I wouldn't mind reading smut oneshots of him with Dany. Viserys/Rhaegar/Daenerys would also have been great and an improved version of the Conquerors.
There are many other things I'd like to say, but I've tried not to be wordy (failed), i also lost some thoughts while writing, maybe there are things missing and maybe my spelling is missing in some places, I didn't proofread the text, i hope you understand.
I guess basically I'm complaining about not having enough Targaryen incest, but I know you would mention House of Dragon and I explained why that's not an option for me. So yes it sucks like incest, with little representation and the little representation that there is you're not comfortable watching, I'm a clown 🤡
One thing I will say about House of the Dragon is that it may not be faithful to the source material - though I doubt for the better.
It's a shame that all the potential of House Targaryen and their long history of incestuous marriage hasn't given us anything really good to ship/watch/gush about.
I suppose we've got to hope that House of the Dragon is a success, so that we might get more GOT/Targaryens in the future.
I'm totally with you on Visenya/Aegon/Rhaenys. Visenya being the odd one out would just be hard for me to watch.
Viserys as written really did make an odd choice turning to the Dothraki. I can only assume the influence of others were what really made the decision
Thanks for sharing your thoughts with us, Anon. I am sorry for your pain!
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chillyravenart · 4 years
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Hi, I'm curious about your opinion on a seldom discussed asoiaf matter: Rhaegar Targaryen's relationship with his mother, Rhaella. It's bugging me since there's little to no mention of it in any of the books. Safe to assume that Viserys was close to her, her crown was his last joy according to Dany. Dany herself sadly doesn't count, she only has stories about their mom. But Rhaegar has plenty of years. He must have seen her misery as well. Surely he didn't just stand aside and did nothing right?
It's a seldom discussed matter for a reason, we simply don't have enough material on their relationship and only mere snippets on them entirely. I have opinions and views of my own, but none of them are fully backed up by canon- because the info just doesn’t exist :( 
Rhaegar was born to thirteen-year old Rhaella during the Tragedy at Summerhall- an event that was said to overshadow him throughout his life. As per royal etiquette, I can only assume that baby Rhaegar was brought up by wetnurses and tutored by maesters as a child, with limited access to his mother. This would have been exacerbated by the fact that within the first eleven years of Rhaegar’s life, Rhaella lost FIVE babies. Her role was to provide Aerys with heirs and spares, and for a very long time, it ended in grief. I’m sure Rhaegar would have known of his mother’s misery, but there’s literally nothing to illustrate that point. Royal children did not share the same maternal relationship as children today, and whilst I’m certain Rhaella loved her firstborn, I just don’t know if they were super close on account of her losses, as well as Aerys’ increasing madness. 
I’ve done some rambling below the cut just to try and explore this further. Hope it makes sense lol!
To start off with, Rhaella and Aerys’ marriage was never a happy one. Aerys was unfaithful, and Rhaella clearly disapproved.
Sadly, the marriage between Aerys II Targaryen and his sister, Rhaella, was not as happy; though she turned a blind eye to most of the king’s infidelities, the queen did not approve of his “turning my ladies into his whores.”
This led Rhaella to eventually dismiss her friend and lady-in-waiting Joanna Lannister, who as everyone knows, married Aerys’ Hand, Tywin Lannister. Her marriage suffered as did her health when she lost 5 babies in a ten year period.
Relations between the king and queen grew even more strained when Rhaella proved unable to give Aerys any further children. Miscarriages in 263 and 264 were followed by a stillborn daughter born in 267. Prince Daeron, born in 269, survived for only half a year. Then came another stillbirth in 270, another miscarriage in 271, and Prince Aegon, born two turns premature in 272, dead in 273.
This tidbit had escaped me entirely but when Tytos Lannister died in 267AC, Tywin returned west and Aerys accompanied him with Rhaegar.
Though His Grace left the queen behind in King’s Landing (Her Grace was pregnant with the child who proved to be the stillborn Princess Shaena), he took their eight-year-old son Rhaegar, Prince of Dragonstone, and more than half the court. For the better part of the next year, the Seven Kingdoms were ruled from Lannisport and Casterly Rock, where both the king and his Hand were in residence…
This highlights a period of almost a year where Rhaella and Rhaegar were separated. Again, I can only assume they missed each other- as any mother and child would- but nothing is written of it. It was also during this time that Aerys’ relationship with Rhaella began to show cracks.
At first His Grace comforted Rhaella in her grief, but over time his compassion turned to suspicion. By 270 AC, he had decided that the queen was being unfaithful to him…
Aerys began imposing restrictions on Rhaella at this stage, forbidding her to leave Maegor’s Holdfast and having two septas share her bed. This probably extended to her relationship with Rhaegar too, sadly.
The march of the king’s madness seemed to abate for a time in 274 AC, when Queen Rhaella gave birth to a son. So profound was His Grace’s joy that it seemed to restore him to his old self once again … but Prince Jaehaerys died later that same year, plunging Aerys into despair….
Nothing is mentioned of Rhaegar during these troubling times, but again, I can only assume he was kept separate from the inner workings of the queen’s court and wasn’t fully exposed to his mother’s troubles. We also know he was a solitary child during his early years and preferred books until the age of ten when he decided to take up arms too. He was seventeen when Viserys was born, and was “everything that could be wanted in an heir apparent” and yet it was still overcast by Aerys’ deteriorating mental health. It’s also worthy of note that once Rhaegar came of age, his role in the workings of the court would have increased; he may have sat at council meetings and been prepared for the role of heir. This paired with the fact that he continued to read, train vigorously, and travel to Summerhall on his own indicates that he didn’t really have much of a “family environment” to speak of. I always wonder where he got his love of music from, and I’d like to think Rhaella enjoyed his sad songs and harp skills- but again, WE DON’T KNOW :’(
The birth of Prince Viserys only seemed to make Aerys II more fearful and obsessive, however. Though the new young princeling seemed healthy enough, the king was terrified lest he suffer the same fate as his brothers… Even the queen herself was forbidden to be alone with the infant…
I don’t think Rhaella and Viserys were as close as could be hoped during Viserys’ early childhood. Aerys was extremely paranoid, particularly after the defiance of Duskendale which broke him irrevocably and turned him against his wife and heir.
Convinced that the smallfolk and lords were plotting against his life and fearing that even Queen Rhaella and Prince Rhaegar might be part of these plots, he reached across the narrow sea to Pentos and imported a eunuch named Varys to serve as his spymaster…
Similarly, when Rhaegar wed Elia in 280AC, Aerys did not attend, nor did he allow Viserys to attend. Since there’s no mention of Rhaella being prohibited, we can safely assume that she was in attendance.
They were wed the following year, in a lavish ceremony at the Great Sept of Baelor in King’s Landing, but Aerys II did not attend. He told the small council that he feared an attempt upon his life if he left the confines of the Red Keep, even with his Kingsguard to protect him. Nor would he allow his younger son, Viserys, to attend his brother’s wedding…
Rhaegar and Elia took up residence on Dragonstone after the wedding, presumably because Rhaegar and Aerys were definitely at odds at this stage and rumours and paranoia were rampant. There were talks of Aerys possibly disinheriting Rhaegar, Rhaegar deposing Aerys etc. Again, no clue on how Rhaella would have felt about this- but you can probably guess! The only slight snippet we have is when Rhaegar presented Rhaenys in court.
When Prince Rhaegar returned to the Red Keep to present his daughter to his own mother and father, Queen Rhaella embraced the babe warmly…
This certainly gives us an insight to how pleased Rhaella would have been to be a grandma, so I can imagine this reunion would have been very dear to her too. Fast forward to the Tourney at Harrenhal, neither Rhaella or Viserys were present, and had been left behind at the Red Keep. During the Rebellion, we know Rhaegar meant to win the war and bring about change- for his own family too, “... changes will be made. I meant to do it long ago, but... well, it does no good to speak of roads not taken…”
But when Rhaegar was slain at the Trident,
When the word reached court, Aerys packed the queen off to Dragonstone with Prince Viserys…
Nothing is mentioned of her reaction to her firstborn’s death (but we can imagine) nor the nine months Rhaella and Viserys spent together, but it must have been a time fraught with worry and fear as King’s Landing fell and House Targaryen was unmade. I feel most deeply for Rhaella’s life, and I wish we had more detail on her direct relationship with her children- particularly Rhaegar- but alas, there is not much to work with. All I can say is, despite her woes and losses and the abuse she suffered, Rhaella was a strong woman, she held her own and was dignified until the end. I’m certain she adored all her children, and the pain she suffered throughout her life affected her acutely, but she remained with her faculties intact and was able to possess the fortitude to carry Daenerys to full-term and deliver her safely, before sadly perishing herself. 
RIP Rhaella, your daughter is amazing and you would be so proud of her, and Rhaegar’s legacy also lives on. VIVA LA HOUSE TARGARYEN!!!! I really hope this answered your question, if not, it certainly made me sad AF to research all this.
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Hey I was just wondering on your interpretation of Jonerys in the books? Because according to the bad leaks we will get Jon killing Dany, but in the book version its pretty clear that these two will marry and I don't necessarily see how those two things jive with each other, unless we get a literal repeat of the Azor Ahai/Nissa Nissa bs with them🤷🏼‍♀️ Thoughts? Because I have given up hope for the show and need some reassurance on the books after reading all of them plus the history books,,
Look, anon. Even in the fucking show these two have been paralleled to death - in a way that inextricably links their lives together, as seen here and here and here. When you learn that when Ian McElhinney (Barristan Selmy) confronted D&D about how he thought it was too early to kill off his character, it made them want to kill him more, out of spite… it makes it pretty clear what D&D are doing.
In their effort to adhere to shock and subversion… they’ve left mounds of unused foreshadowing all over the place (I’m still working on a master post of unused foreshadowing and plot elements). As you might’ve guessed, Jonerys foreshadowing is among those casualties - such as Dany mentioning she may have to enter in a political marriage at the end of season 6 before setting sail for Westeros, or the four different instances that challenge Dany’s belief that she can’t have children, that her family hasn’t seen its end, and that Longclaw will go to Jon’s children after him. As of right now, none of the leaks indicate that any of this meant anything other than dialogue filler. If it was never intended to amount to anything, then the writers should not have included these lines at all, especially in a show that was cut down from ten episodes to seven. Way, way too much emphasis was put on challenging the notion Daenerys can’t have children. It’s what a good writer might call ‘trimming the fat’ from the story, otherwise, it does nothing but muddy up the story unnecessarily.
Jonerys aside, D&D have killed so much foreshadowing in the series just to make a shocking ending (which by the way, makes no sense at all). I was flabbergasted when I read this quote from 2013:
When I asked Benioff and Weiss if it was possible to infer any overall intentionality to the upcoming 10 episodes, they sneered. “Themes are for eighth-grade book reports,” Benioff told me.
Uh, what?
As you may have seen, I already recently covered why Jon shouldn’t care so much about the incest aspect - in the comments I received, there was a great point about how Jon has borderline romantic feelings toward his cousin Arya (who he believes is his half-sister), tending to think of her when he wonders what his love interest’s (Ygritte) body looks like under all those clothes. In the original outline for the series, Jon and Arya were supposed to end up together or at least be involved in a love triangle with Tyrion.
As you see, in the books, Daenerys has already been groomed for the reality of being wedded to her brother, so her nephew won’t be some grand depature from this. She’s a dragonrider, and if the shows are to be believed, Jon will be, too - and if the majority of fans are to be believed, then there might be something magical about Targaryen blood that makes them different or unique or magical, hence the incest.
When you look at just how finely crafted this book series by GRRM is… it makes it really hard to believe that he’d throw out all of his foreshadowing for shock value.
“It’s easy to do things that are shocking or unexpected, but they have to grow out of characters. They have to grow out of situations. Otherwise, it’s just being shocking for being shocking.”—George R. R. Martin
I think we can all agree that season eight of Game of Thrones is all about futility, shock, nihilism. So, check out this quote:
Q: Early on, one critic described the TV series as bleak and embodying a nihilistic worldview, another bemoaned its “lack of moral signposts.” Have you ever worried that there’s some validity to that criticism?
A: No. That particular criticism is completely invalid. Actually, I think it’s moronic. My worldview is anything but nihilistic.—George R. R. Martin
It was George who said we’d get a bittersweet ending, not D&D. It was George who said he wanted a LotR-style ending, not D&D.
While there are many conflicting quotes out there about GRRM’s ending vs. D&D’s… This recent article published right after episode 3 had some interesting lines:
“Of course you have an emotional reaction. I mean, would I prefer they do it exactly the way I did it? Sure. It can also be… traumatic. Because sometimes their creative vision and your creative vision don’t match, and you get the famous creative differences thing — that leads to a lot of conflict.”—George R. R. Martin
My interpretation currently is that yes, Jonerys is real in the books…
(just as it was in the fucking show until they decided to abandon all preestablished groundwork and foundation) …and has been thoroughly foreshadowed - and not in a tragic way.
First of all, the series is called ‘A Song of Ice and Fire’ - while this stands for many things from literal to metaphorical, I’d say it absolutely encompasses Jon and Dany. I have some very unpopular ideas that ice actually represents Daenerys and fire, Jon. Whether or not I’m right about that, we have some hints that Jon will ultimately accept his Targaryen identity…
Subtle clue about who he is, in one of his true house’s colors:
“The next time I see you, you’ll be all in black.”Jon forced himself to smile back. “It was always my color.”
He idolizes historical Targaryens:
“Daeren Targaryen was only fourteen when he conquered Dorne,” Jon said. The Young Dragon was one of his heroes.
He’d pretend to be Targaryens while playing as a child:
“I’m Prince Aemon the Dragonknight,” Jon would call out.
For Daenerys, we get this curious line:
“Mother of dragons, bride of fire…”
Bride could also be metaphorical in some way, sure, but let’s just say it’s literal. Jon is the dragon, the fire.
Okay, so for the books, I’ll try to hit the bullet points:
First and foremost, the pair are incredibly similar, both stepping into positions of rule after immersing themselves into a foreign culture, adapting to their way of life before making allies. Both Jon and Daenerys make grave mistakes while wielding power, and they learn from their mistakes. They’re being shaped into rulers.
Both fall in love, yet still feel alone:
“Her captain slept beside her, yet she was alone.” / "Even with Ygritte sleeping beside him, he felt alone.“
Daenerys dreams of her lover:
“It was never Jorah Mormont she dreamed of; her lover was always younger and more comely, though his face remained a shifting shadow.”
Jon is described as a shadow:
“A shadow half-seen behind a fluttering curtain.” / “He would be condemned to be an outsider, the silent man standing in the shadows”
Daenerys also dreams of life as a wife and mother:
“In her dream they had been man and wife, simple folk who lived a simple life in a tall stone house with a red door.”
Both dream of children they will never have:
“I might someday hold a son of my own blood in my arms.” / "I will never have a little girl.“
From Jon’s first chapter, there are hints that Benjen knows his identity and that family might someday be important to Jon:
"You don’t know what you’re asking, Jon. The Night’s Watch is a sworn brotherhood. We have no families. None of us will ever father sons. Our wife is duty. Our mistress is honor. You are a boy of fourteen, not a man, not yet. Until you have known a woman, you cannot understand what you would be giving up.”
“I don’t care about that!” Jon said hotly.
“You might, if you knew what it meant,” Benjen said. “If you knew what the oath would cost you, you might be less eager to pay the price, son.”
We have those quotes from Maester Aemon, that hint that Jon might choose love or a child over duty:
“What is honor compared to a woman’s love? What is duty against the feel of a newborn son in your arms … or the memory of a brother’s smile? Wind and words. Wind and words. We are only human, and the gods have fashioned us for love. That is our great glory, and our great tragedy.”
While yes, Aemon hints that it is both glory and tragedy, we’re coming off a long, long line of tragic Targaryen love stories - the difference here being that one of these Targaryens is out to break the wheel that destroyed so many of these star-crossed, doomed Targaryens loves (Rhaegar/Lyanna, Duncan/Jenny, Daemon/Daenerys, Aemon/Naerys, etc).
Blue roses are linked to Lyanna Stark or even House Stark in general. In a vision, Daenerys sees:
“A blue flower grew from a chink in a wall of ice, and filled the air with sweetness.”
Meanwhile, there is foreshadowing that Dany will help Jon’s effort against the white walkers with lines like these:
“He might as well wish for another thousand men, and maybe a dragon or three.”
Daenerys, herself, has a weird moment with some ants while she wakes in the Dothraki Sea, brushing them off of her body as they swarm over a wall:
“To them these tumbledown stones must loom as huge as the Wall of Westeros. The biggest wall in all the world, her brother Viserys used to say, as proud as if he’d built it himself.”
Around the same time, Jon is killed, whispering to his wolf:
“Ghost,” he whispered. Pain washed over him. He gave a grunt and fell face-first into the snow. He never felt the fourth knife. Only the cold…
Meanwhile, after ‘opening her third eye’ with some berries, Daenerys hears the call of a wolf all the way over in Essos:
“Off in the distance, a wolf howled. The sound made her feel sad and lonely.”
We can extrapolate that this is, in fact, Ghost… as first, there don’t seem to be wolves in the Dothraki Sea, but also this line from Bran also provides context:
“Here in the chill damp darkness of the tomb his third eye had finally opened. He could reach Summer whenever he wanted, and once he had even touched Ghost and talked to Jon.”
Now that we know Jon’s true name (at least according to the show), this curious line from Daenerys also hints she might marry Jon:
“A crown should not sit easy on the head. One of her royal forebears had said that, once. Some Aegon, but which one? Five Aegons had ruled the Seven Kingdoms of Westeros. There would have been a sixth, but the Usurper’s dogs had murdered her brother’s son when he was still a babe at the breast. If he had lived, I might have married him.”
Meanwhile, Jon is infatuated with Val, a woman who sounds an awful lot like a precursor to Daenerys, who is a warrior woman with silver-pale hair… Jon is also reminded of Val’s hips and breasts and that she’s 'well made for whelping children’…
“The light of the half-moon turned Vals honey-blond hair a pale silver and left her cheeks as white as snow. She took a deep breath. The air tastes sweet.”
“Lonely and lovely and lethal, Jon Snow reflected, and I might have had her.”
“A warrior princess, he decided, not some willowy creature who sits up in a tower, brushing her hair and waiting for some knight to rescue her.”
As for GRRM, he told a helpful clue to director Alan Taylor circa season one of Game of Thrones:
“Anyways, he alluded to the fact that Jon and Dany were the point, kind of. That, at the time, there was a huge, vast array of characters, and Jon was a lowly, you know, bastard son. So it wasn’t clear to us at the time, but he did sort of say things that made it clear that the meeting and the convergence of Jon and Dany were sort of the point of the series. So, I was happy that a big step forward was taken in the episode I got to do this season is where he has fallen for her both, you know, emotionally and politically I think.”
But that’s not all. I did write a meta about the mother goddess Danu and her parallels with Dany - and this, to me, rings much more true to who Daenerys is in the books rather than whatever impostor is parading around in Dany’s skin on screen in season eight.
There is a lot of proof that GRRM puts a LOT of thought and detail into his books - even down to the Starks ‘howling’ and ‘growling’ and the Lannisters ‘roaring’. I’ve uncovered a cool trend where many of the names he assigns to characters reflect their numerological gemstone house colors - and the names he chooses all shed some light on the characters they are given to, such as Bran meaning ‘raven’ or Sandor meaning ‘defender of man’ or Gendry meaning ‘son-in-law’.
I’ve done a lot of thinking about these things, and I just cannot see GRRM throwing out all of his foreshadowing or all of the clever little things he’s been hinting at since book once, all for the sake of shock value or subverting expectations… That’s not his style and he speaks out against it.
Bearing that in mind, the clear mad queen is Cersei, who shares virtually every parallel to Aerys Targaryen - the way she tortures parent and child chained just out of reach from one another, the way torture sexually excites her, the way she was tortured into madness, and straight down to her wildfire use. Daenerys better fits the archetype of an anti-hero rather than a straight villain. With only two books left and still no signs of madness… I just don’t see it going down this way in the books.
As for whatever just happened with Daenerys, I’ve been given a compelling argument that in the books, as she squares off with (f)Aegon Targaryen, or, Young Griff, in an effort to expose the Mummer’s Dragon, she might accidentally set off these wildfire traps that make her look just like her father, and perhaps she even goes a little mad with grief.
Especially considering that ASOIAF is so heavily based on Memory, Sorrow, and Thorn, which share countless parallels, such as:
Norn (White foxes)  → The Others (White walkers)
Sithi (Dawn children) → Singers (Children of the forest)
Witchwood  → Weirwood
The Storm King → Night’s King
Ineluki → Azor Ahai
Sorrow → Lightbringer
Black iron → Dragonglass
Nisse → Nissa Nissa
Hayholt Castle → Winterfell Castle
Green Angel Tower → Winterfell Crypts
Simon Snowlock (secret heritage) → Jon Snow
Princess Miriamele (disguised as a boy) → Arya Stark
Warring brothers King Elias/Josua → Stannis/Renly
Tailed star → Red comet
Black priest Pryrates → Red priest Melisandre
Daenerys is suspected to be the Princess Maegwin figure, a woman who “is forced to watch as forces conquer her people and is eventually driven to madness in her desperation to save them.”
You make a good point about Fire & Blood and ASOIAF prehistory, too. Aside from the doomed Targaryen love stories I mentioned earlier, we get another history book that basically gives us a rundown of various Targaryen ladies who never got to be queen. I’d say this book has a strong feminist message - and might even hint that the last vestige of House Targaryen just might accomplish what her foremothers could not - finally becoming the Queen of the Seven Kingdoms.
Lastly, I’ll leave you with a clip from the man, himself, about Dany:
youtube
“From my mother’s stories, I always had this kind of sense that I was like disinherited royalty. Here was this dock that my great-grandfather built - it wasn’t ours anymore. Here was this house that my mother had been born in - we didn’t own this house anymore. We didn’t own any house, we had an apartment. So it was like, ugh, I came from greatness - like Dany! And I will take back what is mine with Fire and Blood! I think on some level, that must’ve gotten to me.”—George R. R. Martin
I could be wrong about all of this, of course… but that’s my current take. 🤷
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unguarded-angel · 5 years
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Trigger Warning / GoT Spoilers!
I’ve been reading and queuing posts all day about the tragedy that is the last episodes of Game of Thrones and the terrible writing that is ruining the story and characters they spent 8 seasons growing and developing. But there’s something that’s really bothering me that I haven’t seen anyone else mention. And it might seem small compared to the countless other things there are to be enraged about, but I think it should be said none the less.
In the “behind the episode” thing where the writers talked about the episode, Benioff said this about Daenerys:
“Even when you look back to season one, when Khal Drogo gives the golden crown to Viserys, and her reaction of watching her brother’s head melted off... and he was a terrible brother, you know, so I don’t think anyone out there was crying when Viserys died, but there is something kind of chilling about the way that Dany has responded to the death of her enemies.”
And I’m like, did he seriously just use her coldness towards her FUCKING ABUSER to back up his whole ‘Dany has always had an evil side’ thing?!?! He admitted that Viserys was a terrible brother, but that feels like a massive understatement considering he beat her and sold her to a man to be raped! And then he threatened to kill her to get his crown so Drogo killed him, and you’re calling Daenerys cold for not being all sad and emotional about it? You think she should’ve been more upset about the death of the guy that had been abusing and using her her whole life? Really?!?!?!
I’m so furious and fed up! What the hell is wrong with these writers? And I just found out that the scene where Jamie raped Cersei, a scene that was so triggering and still haunts me every time I see them together (as if the incest wasn’t upsetting enough), was supposed to be a regular sex scene because the writers and directors didn’t realize they were making a rape scene? They are such pieces of shit that they saw a rape scene as romantic and didn’t have a clue how horrible it was?! AHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH!!!!!!!
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silver-wedding · 6 years
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Children, Trauma, and Family
Jon and Dany’s child will be important to the overall political narrative, but one has to consider just how precious a baby would be for these two. The children Dany will give birth to may be considered Targaryens, but a royal dynasty would be secondary in their minds.
Jon always believed that he would have no children simply because he was a bastard. He outright refused to have sex because he never wanted such a stigma to be placed on his potential children.
Jon even denied that he ever wanted a family to Benjen, which is something his uncle saw through immediately. The reality was that he wanted to have a baby boy of his own, but never dared to dream of becoming a father.
Ygritte broke him out of this fragile delusion, and ignited the desire for a family he had hidden within himself. Jorah would later remind Jon that he could finally pursue this for himself.
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Daenerys has never been subtle about her own desire to be a mother. The title “Mother of Dragons” has always hinted as much, which describes Dany’s motivations far more than any other nickname she has earned.
For as long as she could remember, Dany wanted to have a family that loved her. She was just a lonely girl with nothing but a name that caused her more harm than good, and a previously devoted brother that transformed into a monster.
With the loss of her unborn son and Drogo, every hope went into finding “home” without really knowing what she was looking for. Even when arriving at her ancestral seat of Dragonstone, Dany did not find the place of belonging she always longed for.
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When Jon and Dany first met, they were two people who had lost all belief in ever finding true love again. They had placed all of their motivations into ambitious goals for the sake of others, rather than face their own deep seeded fears.
After all, who would ever dare to love a dragon?
Trauma and Duty
Both might have thought, “Will I ever find love again? Am I even worthy of that love? What if I lose them yet again?”
They could have told themselves, “I found the one I was meant to be with, but I couldn’t save them.. Why should I dwell on my lost love when my people need me? I am not even strong enough to protect the ones I love the most.”
Ever since Jon and Dany lost their lovers, they went down the path of obtaining power in order to find the resolve they needed to avoid such pain again. Jon did not want to be reminded that his only chance of truly living died with Ygritte. Daenerys did not want to remember that her only shot of a loving family was lost with her pregnancy, unborn son and husband.
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If one cannot live for themselves, why not live for whomever is left?
For Jon, this meant preparing others as much as he could for the horrors beyond the Wall. Previously he was angry when denied the role of Ranger, but after his experiences only cared for increasing the chances of survival for the only family he knew was left.
Jon did not envision himself as Lord Commander at quite a young age, but he took on the role because enough of them believed him capable. This was his chance to shape the Night’s Watch into the force capable of protecting the realm like he initially believed them to be.
Dany’s marriage showed her that too many people suffered at the hands of the physically powerful and wealthy. When a crucified slave told her that he would rather die than accept the water she had offered, Dany decided right then and there to throw down the gauntlet against the atrocities of slavery.
If she could not have her family, then she would at least make sure as many people as possible would not share in the pains that she had experienced herself. To succeed in such a monumental task would mean having the strength to find her home in Westeros, and to become a ruler capable of protecting those she loved the most.
Family
For a long period of time, Jon had no idea if any of the Starks were still alive. Even if he could leave the Night’s Watch, he had no home or family to come back to. As far as he had known, Ygritte would have been the family that filled the void the Starks had left in his heart.
With her gone, he only had the Night’s Watch to hold onto, and tried to hold onto the Freefolk as well despite the immense hatred shared between both factions. 
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After being betrayed by the men he called brothers, he could only feel the pain of losing yet another family despite fighting to bring them together.
As a result, Jon became completely devoted to stopping the Army of the Dead even if it killed him. His desire to live became secondary to the survival of Westeros itself.
Daenerys’ passion lit the flames of emotion that he had buried within himself. She had a drive quite unlike anyone he had ever met, and pulled at his own morals in ways he had not considered.
For Jon to shift towards opening himself up towards love and even courting Daenerys himself, shows just much he has truly fallen in love with her. Despite all the pain he felt in the past, Jon is willing to make himself feel vulnerable again by giving into his feelings.
In her early childhood, Dany had a brother in Viserys. He was good to her and taught her everything she knew about the Targaryens. Once he faded away into the abusive man we saw for ourselves, she had truly been alone. With the loss of Drogo and most of the Dothraki, home only seemed further and further away.
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By using the confidence she gained while leading what remained of her people, Dany found a surrogate family for herself on the journey to end slavery in Essos. People that not only truly believed in her mission, but in Daenerys herself. Jorah, Barristan Selmy, Missandei, Grey Worm, Daario, and even Tyrion Lannister became the family she never had.
Despite the challenges and losses along the way, they managed to turn Slaver’s Bay into Dragon’s Bay, and bring about a change the world thought impossible.
However the people she had gathered together were seen as outcasts, former slaves, savages, and even traitors. Daenerys not only wanted to find a home for herself, but had to find one for the people that followed her.
By accepting one massive mission after another, she never had to look at her own personal vulnerabilities and needs. Dany never need dare think of love, or risk losing everything to ruthless enemies that would have no mercy for her new family.
Children, Revelations, and New Challenges
When she met Jon, Dany began to show her true face again as her emotional armor wore down the more she connected with him. This was a man who seemingly came out of nowhere to challenge her mind, spirit and heart all at once.
By the time of their reunion after Viserion’s death, shared trauma made them realize a powerful bond for one another. Dany could not bare the idea of Jon dying as she tried to rescue him, just as he could not bare seeing Dany in tears over her loss.
Of course with the idea of love reemerging within both of them will come the same insecurities and fears they held all along.
Jon will feel the need to protect Dany from anything that comes her way in battle. He might even make it a point to argue that she should stay away from the Great War entirely, with the discovery of her pregnancy.
Even when Daenerys is the only one capable of flying Drogon, the greatest asset in the army of the living.
Dany will have similar feelings. She will not want the father of her children to place himself on the front lines, despite his capability as a commander and experience in fighting White Walkers.
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Before such fears and points of tension appear, I believe that Daenerys’ pregnancy will be one of the happiest moments in the series. Consider how often they have both been denied family throughout their entire lives, and the reaction to their love resulting in a child being born during one of the biggest turning points in Westeros’ history.
I can all but guarantee a lot of happy tears and kissing.
Daenerys believed she was incapable of getting pregnant, and that she would be the last Targaryen. To have such a tragedy turned on its head when she lived with this knowledge throughout her entire journey will be powerful.
Jon will finally be able to have the family he always longed for, and will not allow any barrier to stand between them. His courtship of Daenerys when he previously only thought of the Army of the Dead is proof enough of that.
However, there is one problem to all of this. Any child born between them would be considered a bastard, something Jon would never allow to happen. Given that Daenerys is a Queen she could legitimize her children, but the stigma would still exist.
So what is the solution?
Marriage.
This would in fact, be the solution to many of the problems that the couple could face in Season 8. So really, it’s more a matter of when it will happen than if it will happen.
When they were worlds apart, Jon and Dany somehow found one another despite the odds being massively against them.
With a second chance at love, I doubt these two will ever let go of one another.
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ayllriadayne · 7 years
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Women in Ice Cells: The Mother of Dragons
So far in the Women in Ice Cells series, I’ve examined the characters of Elia Nymeros Martell and Joanna Lannister, both notable members of the Dead Ladies Club. Today I’m going to be tackling another member: Rhaella Targaryen, Queen of the Seven Kingdoms, mother of Rhaegar, Viserys and Daenerys. While Aerys is often talked about by a number of characters, Rhaella is rarely mentioned in comparison. Aerys’ name appears 165 times throughout the books. Meanwhile, Rhaella is mentioned, by name, a grand total of five times. For such a major character, in-universe and out--a queen, and mother to one of the main characters in the series--that’s frankly shameful. In light of that, I’m going to take a look at what we know about her, and what this could tell us about her character.
Warning: this essay talks about rape and abuse. Please stay safe and don’t read it if you think this will trigger or upset you. 
Rhaella was born in either 245 or 246 AC, the second and youngest child of King Jaehaerys II Targaryen and his sister-wife, Queen Shaera (another DLC member! Look at that). Despite Aegon V’s intent to end dynastic incest, Jaehaerys was all about that Prince that was Promised prophecy, and forced Aerys and Rhaella to marry against their wishes. So here’s Rhaella, unwillingly married to her own brother by her father--but, as Barristan tells Dany, Rhaella was always mindful of her duty. Perhaps that implies that, unhappy as she was about the wedding, Rhaella grinned and bore it, seeing it as her duty as a daughter and a princess.
Rhaella had a number of ladies-in-waiting during her time as princess, and later queen, including the nameless Princess of Dorne, mother of Doran, Elia and Oberyn, and Joanna Lannister (dead ladies. Dead ladies everywhere). As I discussed in Joanna’s essay, Aerys had a creepy crush on Joanna, and it seems Rhaella put up with this for a long time. The straw that broke the proverbial camel’s back appears to have been Aerys’ drunken leering and groping at Joanna during Joanna and Tywin’s wedding feast. According to The World of Ice and Fire, Rhaella was generally willing to turn a blind eye to Aerys’ infidelities, but it was another matter when it concerned her own ladies.
This is interesting to me, but unfortunately not elaborated on, so I have to speculate. We know that Rhaella didn’t want to marry Aerys, and she doesn’t seem to have been particularly fond of him. When we’re told she refused to have Aerys lusting after her own ladies, was this because of her own pride in being snubbed and shamed by her husband right under her own nose? Or was it defiance and compassion--in sending Joanna away, was she trying to protect her from Aerys? It could be one, or the other, or, more likely, a bit of both. We have to bear in mind that at the beginning of Joanna’s tenure at King’s Landing, Rhaella would have been thirteen or fourteen (ugh, Westeros. Actually, ugh, GRRM. I’m writing an essay about this too, mark my words). Imagine being a child and having to deal with this. Poor Rhaella.
We know that after Rhaella gave birth to Rhaegar during the Tragedy of Summerhall, she suffered a number of miscarriages. We’re told, briefly, that she grieved for her lost children, but, in true DLC fashion, the real emphasis is on Aerys’ reaction. He confined Rhaella to Maegor’s Holdfast and had two septas sleep in her bed every night, to make sure she stayed faithful. What was Rhaella’s reaction to all this? We don’t know. GRRM never sees fit to tell us. But, as Barristan says, Rhaella was always mindful of her duty. Also, her husband was a psychotic asshole. I can’t imagine her putting up too much resistance.
So, here she is, after a traumatic first birth and a string of devastating miscarriages and stillbirths, locked in a holdfast, suspected of infidelity--basically being blamed for the deaths of her own children. When Prince Jaehaerys died, Aerys began to suspect others, and accused his wetnurse of poisoning him, and had her beheaded. First of all, imagine being this poor wetnurse, executed because the king is a paranoid tyrant when you were just doing your goddamn job, trying to survive in this toxically masculine disaster of a world. Secondly, imagine being Rhaella, witnessing this. Imagine thinking that if you continue to lose your children, your head might be the next one on the chopping block. Then Viserys was born, and everything was golden again, in theory.
Aerys went to Casterly Rock (home of Joanna Lannister) a lot, leaving Rhaella and baby Viserys in King’s Landing. I have to wonder how Rhaella felt about that. Relieved, presumably, that her abusive husband is leaving her alone for once. Hurt at the infidelity and disrespect, one has to assume. Guilty, for what he might possibly do to Joanna while there? Rhaella had so many burdens to shoulder, and this was before Aerys went full-on Aegon IV. In the later years of their marriage, Aerys succumbed to the Targaryen madness. Barristan says that Rhaella did her best to keep Viserys innocent and oblivious of his father’s madness, and shielded him from his cruelty; but Jaime tells us that by the time Aerys ordered the wildfire caches placed around the city, Rhaella’s eyes had been closed for years.
This is such a tragic picture we have of her. A mother desperately trying to protect her child from his father, her husband, her brother, presumably putting herself in between Aerys and Viserys, and doing what Jaime describes as “going away inside” to handle the trauma. Aerys began sexually abusing her, violently raping her every time her burned someone, and the Kingsguard outside the door stood and listened and did nothing. It’s a wonder she wasn’t completely broken by this point.
Then Rhaegar died, and with Robert bearing down on the city, a now pregnant Rhaella fled to Dragonstone with Viserys to escape the storm. Her son and husband had started a war; the former was dead, and she had to know the latter would soon follow. I wonder how she felt, that morning, as she travelled to the docks and sailed across Blackwater Bay. Grief, for her son; fear, for her living children; maybe a tinge of relief, for finally being able to escape from Aerys. And, I would have to imagine, anger. It would be hard to blame her for that.
While she was on Dragonstone, her husband, her grandchildren and her daughter-in-law were murdered, leaving Viserys as rightful king of Westeros. Rhaella, always mindful of her duty, crowned her son, using the same crown she herself had worn as queen. Sometime in between then and her death, she made a choice I find interesting: the decision to name her unborn daughter Daenerys.
For those who aren’t familiar, there was a first Daenerys Targaryen--the daughter of Aegon IV Targaryen and his sister-wife Naerys. Daeron II arranged for her to marry Maron Nymeros Martell of Dorne, thus finally securing peace with Dorne and bringing them into the Seven Kingdoms. It was Daenerys who started the tradition of children of all social classes bathing in the water gardens, and she advised her son to remember his realm in everything he did. Rhaegar is presumably a masculine form of Rhaenys, and the same with Viserys and Visenya. Yet Rhaella didn’t follow the precedent Aerys had set, and name her daughter for war; instead, she named her for peace. I think that, after the life she had lived, that said it all, really.
And then, nine months after her flight from King’s Landing, Rhaella gave birth to Daenerys while a wild storm raged, strong enough to shake the walls of Dragonstone. Daenerys was called Stormborn, and shortly afterwards, Rhaella died from complications of childbirth. Willem Darry took Viserys and Dany across the narrow sea to Braavos, and for them and us, the rest is history.
Overall, I think Rhaella is much harder to pin down than Joanna and Elia (as is probably evident by how much longer this part is). A loving, protective mother; a dutiful princess and queen; a survivor of horrific abuse who, despite having every right to be angry and vengeful, chose to name her daughter for peace. Rhaella Targaryen deserved better.
For the next installment, it’s a tossup between Lyanna Stark and Ashara Dayne. Feel free to drop me a message and tell me which you’d prefer I cover first. As always, I hope you enjoyed!
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magnoliasrotting · 7 years
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Daensa ~ Sansa comforts Daenerys after Viserion's death. Dany learns about Lady and realizes that she has more in common with the northern girl than she originally thought.
Thank you so much for the ask! This got a little long so its all under the cut but I hope you like it.
All she wanted to do most days was just hide away from the world and sleep. Viserion’s death was sharp and painful, piercing and tearing at her heart until she was certain that her heart was no longer recognisable as that. No woman should ever have to see her child die, and yet that was what she had seen. Her son, her Viserion was gone, or at least he was no longer recognisable as her child. He’s not your son. She knew that she had known from the moment that she had stared into his eyes, now blank and hollow, an unnatural blue instead of the usual gold of his eyes. He hadn’t recognised his mother or his siblings. Tears pricked at her eyes but she shut them tight. Tears are for little girls and you are no child, she reminded herself harshly, trying to pull the broken pieces together, but you are a mother. You were a mother before you were a queen, she thought to herself as she heard the sudden loud and pained screeches of Drogan and Rheagal.
She winced at the sound of their grief. They had all been inconsolable, refusing her touch and comfort. Every time she had tried to approach them, they had only snarled at her, pinning her with a look of absolute rage. Jon had told her that it was nothing to worry but she knew. They blame me, she thought to herself, feeling hollow and empty and they were right to believe that. She had been so certain, she had pushed and it had all come to naught. There was a loud shriek that shook the very foundations of Winterfell. She closed her eyes, fiercely jealous of her own children. It was a wicked thing to feel but right at the moment, she wished to be with her children, screaming her grief to the sky, shaking all that heard. She didn’t want to wear the crown or smile for these Northerners. She wanted to cry.
There was a sudden knock at the door. She tried to ignore it but pushed herself up. You’re a queen before you are a mother and we are at war. She walked to the door slowly, hoping that the other person would lose interest and go away but they knocked again. She opened the door, it is time for you to be queen now. She didn’t much look like a queen. Her hair was tangled and her eyes red and swollen. She snorted, the great and fearsome queen of Westeros is nothing more than a little girl. You’re all being led by a child. She wanted to shout that out to the world. Tell them all that they had been fools to believe in her. She couldn’t even protect her own child. How could she even begin to help and save the people of Westeros? I am a dragon, she reminded herself, but this is winter now and all the fire is gone. She opened the door but immediately wished she hadn’t.
“Lady Sansa?” Her eyes darted between the other woman and the tray of food she had. She should have felt grateful for the gesture but she could only feel self-conscious. She was the Queen and the oldest out of the two women but it was Lady Stark who looked older and more regal. The other woman was beautiful, incredibly so. Standing before her at that moment made her feel impossibly small.
“You missed breakfast. I thought you might be hungry so I brought you some things from the kitchen” Her mouth went dry at the kind gesture. She was hungry and she had suspected that food would be sent up to her but to have Lady Sansa doing it. Had Jon sent her? No, he could have asked for a servant to do it but here Lady Sansa stood before her, bearing gifts. Why would she do it, though? She wanted to accept and believe that Lady Sansa was only being kind but from what she had heard and seen of the other woman, this was unusual. Lady Sansa seemed to be made of ice itself. Jon adored her and her Lord Hand seemed fond of her too but she could not help but feel suspicious of the other woman. She was beautiful, very beautiful and she did not know what her motives were.
“Why? You expect me to believe that you did this out of the kindness of your heart? Why are you being kind?” Her words were harsh and blunt, too blunt for a Lady such as Sansa but grief and fatigue had given her distaste for the Great Game and its rules. Lady Stark opened her mouth to reply but the loud cries of Drogan and Rheagal filled the room, shaking the foundations of the castle itself. We’re going to drown in their grief. The world will break apart from the grief of my children, of monsters. She wanted nothing more than to join her two remaining children and comfort them but they would not let her. Lady Sansa yelped loudly and she turned to face the other woman. Her eyes were wide and scared, her face pale with fear and her mouth hanging open. So, she is flesh and blood. There’s more to ice, a little voice said, cruel and harsh. Guilt filled her stomach quickly after though. Lady Sansa had done nothing to deserve her thoughts. She had only ever been kind and gracious.
“Sorry about the noise,” she said kindly. Lady Stark straightened up and shook her head. Her fear slowly fading only to be replaced with the mask.
“There’s nothing to apologise about. May I come in?” She nodded, she couldn’t say anything else. All the words were stuck in her throat. She moved out of the way, allowing the other woman to slip past and place the tray on the desk. She watched her as she busied herself with moving the things about on the tray. She’s very beautiful, the thought was unbidden and strange. It didn’t seem right to think such a thing. She was certain that the other woman wouldn’t be so pleased to hear her thoughts. “I hope broth is fine with you? I wasn’t sure what to get you but this is warm and filling.” She stared at the back of the other woman. If it had been any other person, she would have assumed that they were nervous (rightly so as well) but this was Sansa.
“Lady Stark turned around, smoothing her skirts, a faint blush painted on her face and her head bowed down. She looked lovely, like some snow maiden or princess. She finally looked up and smiled tentatively. It was perhaps that smile that forced the words out.
“Thank you,” she said, truly meaning it. “I’m truly grateful for what you have done.” Her voice trembled on the last word but the other woman’s face softened. She sat heavily on the nearest chair. Something about that expression, gentle and kind and soft broke something inside her and made her feel weak. The tears once again burnt hotly behind her eyes but she pushed the desire down. No! You are the blood of the dragon and dragons don’t cry, she reminded herself harshly but she could not help wonder if mothers of dragons cried. If hot flaming tears slid down their monstrous and scaled faces when their children were lost.
“You don’t have to thank me,” she says softly and there is honesty and truth in her words but frustration bubbles under her skin. Doesn’t she understand? Of course, she must thank her? “Why? Why are you doing this for me? Why are you being kind?” She asks, suddenly angry. The other woman suddenly freezes, her mouth hanging open. There’s a rush of anger and hurt and victory. She’s caught the other woman out (but, and she will never admit this to herself, there is disappointment too). “You may go.” She says finally once she sees that Lady Sansa will remain silent. She turns away from her, the tears behind her eyes now hotter than ever.
“I understand, how it feels. I understand.” She freezes at the other girl’s words. She knows of the pain and horrors that struck the Stark family. It’s a tragedy and she feels for the other girl. She doesn’t know what it’s like to lose a father or a mother and she had been half pained and half relieved when Viserys had died. She doesn’t know much about it but she silently thinks that nothing will ever compare to a loss of a child.
“Your family? I know and I’m sorry for your loss,” she tells her but her words are all stiff. Lady Sansa only shakes her head.
“No, not my family. Do you know about direwolves?” She nods. She had first thought that they were nothing but simple dogs but seeing Jon with his own had opened her eyes. Their connection is deep, at times it is as if they are one. It is the same with all the other Stark siblings, with Arya and the strange boy that has visions. Their connections with their wolves are something deep and intimate and beautiful. She had always wondered why Lady Sansa didn’t have one but now, she thinks with mounting dread, she understands. “Well my one was killed and she was innocent and deserved to live.” Her breath hitched at the sight of the girl’s raw pain. Her face was crumpled and her voice broken. Sansa didn’t look like a Lady or a Queen at that point. She only looked like a girl, like me, she thought to herself.
“I’m sorry.” Sansa nodded jerkily but didn’t say anything else. “Does it get better?” Their eyes met and she could already see from her eyes the answer.
“No, not really, not ever. I still feel the place where she should be. She was part of me and she’s gone now. You get so used to pain though that you sometimes forget.” She nodded, the future didn’t seem any brighter but the weight lessened. It felt good hearing the truth, bleak as it may be. Dany didn’t ever think she would be able to move on from Viseron and hearing the truth, hearing that her child would never be forgotten, would always be loved was one of the sweetest reliefs ever. It hurts so much but I can’t forget. I must look back and remember. She closed her eyes tightly, tears finally slipping down her face.
“Thank you for telling me this.” Sansa, (not Lady Sansa or Stark, just Sansa) nodded, turning her face away.
“I remember how lonely it was afterwards. No one understood and I didn’t want anyone to feel like that again.” The tears fell more easily than before as she nodded. It had been kindness that had moved Sansa, not some shady ulterior motive but kindness. Her heart ached at the thought, she hadn’t realised that it had been so long since she had been the recipient of kindness. A long time, she thought to herself, a very long time.
“Thank you,” she said again. There was more that she wanted, needed really to say but she could barely string together a sentence. Sansa nodded and got up.
“You should get some sleep. You look exhausted.” She pushed herself and edged her way to the bed but suddenly froze. She didn’t want to be alone, not anymore.
“Could you stay? Just until I get to sleep?” She asked. Sansa stared at her with wide and shocked eyes. She knew her question was wrong. This wasn’t what queens did and it wasn’t what mothers did either but she was tired of loneliness and grief had made her into a strange creature.
“Yes,” Sansa said slowly, nodding.
“Yes?” The other girl only smiled, a small one and infinitely sad but one that still made her feel breathless. It’s like falling but there’s no end. That should have scared her and pushed her away but it didn’t. It only made her want more. Flying is like falling too. This is as close as I will ever get to the air.
“Yes,” she said again, sounding more certain and sure of herself.
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