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#Alan Judd
theimpalatales · 1 month
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Charlie Cox in Legacy
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denimbex1986 · 1 month
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'At the start of our interview, Andrew Scott and I are squeezing into a booth in the restaurant at the British Film Institute. It is very similar to the one occupied by Billy Crystal and Meg Ryan's characters in When Harry Met Sally. Quick as a flash, the actor smiles at me and says, “I'll have what she's having.”
Scott goes on to remark that he often dreads reading interviews with actors and hopes this won't be another that he recoils from. “Sometimes talking about acting can be reductive and a bit boring. Of course,” he adds, breaking into a wry, self-mocking grin, “I'm not like that. I'm completely fascinating. Everything I say is a bon mot. It's epigram after epigram. It's like sitting with Oscar Wilde... Although I have better hair!”
Witty. Mischievous. Charming.
These are precisely the qualities that catapulted Scott to stardom as Moriarty in BBC1's worldwide hit drama, Sherlock. People were already talking about him as a striking new talent after his first brief, if completely scene-stealing, 10-minute appearance in Steven Moffat and Mark Gatiss's compelling modern-day reworking of Sir Arthur Conan Doyle's classic detective stories.
His performance as Holmes's dastardly foe – by turns mesmerising and menacing – won Scott the best supporting actor Bafta award last year, beating his co-star Martin Freeman (who plays John Watson in Sherlock) in the process.
It was not exactly an overnight success for Scott – the 37-year-old Irishman had for many years been turning in very creditable, if not such conspicuous performances in dramas such as Lennon Naked (in which he gave a memorable Paul McCartney opposite Christopher Ecclestone's John Lennon), The Hour, John Adams and Band of Brothers.
But Moriarty, who appeared to come to a sticky end at the end of the last series on Sherlock, transformed Scott's profile. Moriarty is the archetypal baddie who has all the best lines, and his popularity meant that the actor was soon being offered leading roles in ITV1 dramas such as The Town and The Scapegoat.
Scott, who was raised in Dublin, where his father worked in an employment agency and his mother was an art teacher, has the volume turned down in real life and has no need to turn the dial up to 11 in the way that Moriarty does. But you can see that he still possesses the same razor-sharp instincts as Sherlock's arch-enemy.
The actor is the first to acknowledge that playing the role of Moriarty has moved his career up several notches. Picking at a croissant, he reflects that: “Sherlock has changed all our careers, and I'm really pleased about that. It gives you the benefit of the doubt because executives like to see recognisable faces.
“It was overwhelming to be on a TV show that is quite so popular. That took me totally by surprise. People had an instant affection for it from the first episode. The reaction was extraordinary. People still come up to me in the street all the time, wanting to talk about it.”
Sherlock fans are known as some of the most passionate in the business, but Scott says they are generally delightful. “There is this impression that the fans are crazy, but they're not – they're very respectful. They don't overstep the mark. I get a lot of fan mail. Of course, some of it is a bit creepy, but mostly it's very moving and creative. People send me drawings and their own versions of Sherlock stories. It's a source of escapism for people and that's great.
“I'm an enthusiast for people, and I don't want them to become the enemy. I've seen that happen to colleagues who are disturbed the whole time, but there's a certain degree of control you can have if you keep yourself to yourself. The kind of actors I admire move through different characters and genres. That's the kind of actor I try to be. If you want that, you have to be circumspect about your private life.”
Scott thinks the character made such an impact because, “Moriarty came as a real surprise to people”. He adds: “He doesn't have to do the conventional villain thing. He is witty, and people like that. He is also a proper match for Sherlock. He's very mercurial, too. I have since been offered to play a lot of different characters, and that's because Moriarty is a lot of different characters. He changes all the time.”
The next legacy of the “Sherlock Effect” is that Scott is starring in a one-off BBC2 drama entitled Legacy. An adaptation by Paula Milne of Alan Judd's bestselling 2001 espionage novel, this is an absorbing contribution to the BBC's “Cold War” season. In this film, set at the height of the conflict between the UK and the USSR in 1974, which goes out on Thursday 28 November, Scott plays Viktor Koslov, a KGB spy.
Charles Thoroughgood (Charlie Cox), a trainee MI6 agent, tries to reconnect with Viktor, an old friend from their Oxford days, in an attempt to “turn” him. However, Victor adroitly turns the tables on Charles with a shocking revelation about the British spy's family. Deliberately shot in Stygian gloom, Legacy captures the murky world of the secret services where cynicism and duplicity are part of the job description. Its tagline could well have been: “Trust no one.”
The film convincingly conjures up the drabness of the 1970s, all three-day weeks, petrol rationing and power cuts. Scott says: “Characters in those days called from phone boxes – whoever does that now? The film fits the era. It has a melancholic tone. It's very brown and downbeat.”
Scott particularly enjoyed playing the ambiguity of Viktor's character. “I like the idea that you don't know who he is. It's important that you feel for Viktor and his predicament. You have to feel he's a human being with a family. But both he and Charles are elusive figures – it's not clear whose side they're on. It's not at all black-and-white, and that's why the film is so shadowy.”
The actor boasts a terrific Russian accent in Legacy. Where did it come from? “There isn't a huge amount of footage of Russians speaking English as a second language, so I started looking at Vladimir Putin videos on YouTube. But then Putin introduced anti-gay legislation this summer – so, being a gay person, I switched to Rudolf Nureyev videos instead. It was another Nureyev defection of sorts!”
Scott is low-key on the subject of his sexuality. “Mercifully, these days people don't see being gay as a character flaw. But nor is it a virtue, like kindness. Or a talent, like playing the banjo. It's just a fact. Of course, it's part of my make-up, but I don't want to trade on it. I am a private person; I think that's important if you're an actor. But there's a difference between privacy and secrecy, and I'm not a secretive person. Really I just want to get on with my job, which is to pretend to be lots of different people. Simple as that.”
Scott is very much getting on with the job at present. He has many intriguing projects in the pipeline, including starring in Jimmy's Hall, the new Ken Loach movie about a political activist expelled from Ireland during the “Red Scare” of the 1930s. He is also appearing with Tom Hardy and Ruth Wilson in Locke, a film about a man whose life is falling apart, and in The Stag, a movie about a stag weekend that goes horribly wrong. In addition, he is headlining alongside Bill Nighy, Dominic West and Imelda Staunton in Matthew Warchus's movie Pride, a true story about an alliance between the mine workers and the lesbian and gay community during the 1984 miners' strike.
If he can possibly find any spare time, Scott is also open to comedy offers. “Everything in life has to have an element of comedy about it. I did Design for Living at the Old Vic in 2010 – Noël Coward was a master of comedy. The audience were convulsing every night. It's such a joyous feeling to hold a pause and wait for the laughter. There is no better high. Forget about drugs!”
But despite the fact that producers are now cold-calling him like overeager mis-sold PPI salesmen, Scott won't be rushing into the first role he's offered. One positive by-product of his success is his ability to be choosy about what he does. He observes: “You have to be brave to turn things down, but there is a certain power to that. I've had offers to do more regular TV series, but I don't regret rejecting them. If money and fame are not your goals, then it becomes easier. American agents use the expression, 'this could be a game-changer'. The implication is that you want the game to change. But I don't. I don't have a plan. I like unpredictability and randomness.
“People get distracted by box-office figures and take jobs because they think it will advance their careers. Of course, it's nice to get a big cheque and be able to buy a massive house, but my view is that we're not here long, so why not do something of value?”
So Scott is very happy with where he's at. “To do all these different things is a dream for me. My idea of a successful actor is not the most recognisable or the richest – it's someone who is able to do a huge amount of different stuff. I don't want to be known for just one thing.”
It's true that Scott is now broadening his career far beyond Moriarty. But I can't resist one final question on the subject: Is there any chance that Moriarty will, like his nemesis, be making a Lazarus-like comeback in the new series of Sherlock? Scott has, after all, been photographed filming scenes for the upcoming third season.
“People ask me that every day. It's a small price to pay for having been in such a wonderful show,” he teases. But he is forbidden from spilling the beans about Moriarty's fate in Sherlock even to close family members.
So has Moriarty played one more dastardly trick on us by faking his own suicide? Or are the scenes the actor has been shooting merely flashbacks? Scott could tell us, but then – like some ruthless Cold War spy – he would have to kill us...'
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sun-ni-day · 5 months
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Same suits! Have I told you lately how much I'm in love with Eppes family?
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70s80sandbeyond · 6 months
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evilhorse · 10 months
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The irony is that Kyle left me this job because he seems to have lost his belief in humanity’s inherent goodness…
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shadowtoherlight · 6 months
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If, when I die, God were to say to me “you may live one day in any universe humanity created, with the memories that you have now,” I would choose to be a student at CalSci, majoring in something that required me to be in professor Eppes’ class, and I would absorb everything he taught as best I could while sitting in that little classroom with the sunlight beaming through the windows, highlighting all the chalk dust that swirls in the air and makes the room smell like old knowledge. Then I would have lunch outside by the fountains, and maybe bump into Don with Colby or David, discussing a case with Charlie and Amita and Larry. I would not eavesdrop too hard but I would listen a little. I would grab a cup of coffee and wander the halls a bit, perhaps run into Alan, say hello, ask how the koi are doing. Then I would soak up a California sunset and do some homework around campus and simply exist in the silly little world that’s literally exactly the same as mine, but with a few people that I wish I could say hi to even just once.
🖤
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dinogal95 · 8 months
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Crossover prompt
Don and his team with Peralta and the B99 squad on a case
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variousqueerthings · 1 year
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i think alan alda has great taste in female comedians and terrible taste in male comedians
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themnmovieman · 2 days
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MSPIFF 2024 Volume 3
Are you ready for Volume 3 of reviews from the 43rd Minneapolis St. Paul International Film Festival?
The largest annual celebration of international cinema in the region MSPIFF43 Volume 3 Writing about film for more than ten years has allowed me to cover movies from blockbusters to indies. It’s also given me the privilege of attending major events like TIFF in Toronto and Sundance in Utah.  While traveling around the country is nice, it’s the ultimate thrill to be on my home turf, proudly…
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theimpalatales · 1 month
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Charlie Cox in Legacy
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mariocki · 2 years
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The Appointment (1982)
"When girls reach Joanne's age, they're growing up fast. They're full of petty likes and dislikes, jealousy... sexual uncertainty. Fiercely possessive. And suddenly, being a father is much more difficult."
#the appointment#1982#british cinema#horror film#lindsey c. vickers#edward woodward#jane merrow#samantha weysom#john judd#alan stuart#auriol goldingham#pamela rose#trevor jones#brian west#the history of The Appointment is fascinating and not something i can really do justice to in these tags so i recommend reading up if#interested. conceived as the first in a whole series of high end british film productions shot with an eye to international tv sales‚ bts#fall outs with producers and investors (the national coal board pension fund‚ of all people) nixed the project and condemned this film to#video rental obscurity; there it stayed‚ and the negatives and prints were all lost to the mist of time. those fine bfi people have spent#literal years tracking down a master copy and finally found a sole (standard def) video master which has now happily seen a release and#means this long forgotten and deeply obscure slice of 80s horror can finally be seen by a (slightly) wider audience. Vickers had only one#prior directing credit (excellent short The Lake) and his experiences here led him to abandon filmmaking but i honestly feel with that we#lost potentially one of the great voices of british cinema. here‚ as in The Lake‚ Vickers demonstrates a willingness to take his time and#to devote himself to setting scene and atmosphere; truth be told there's very little plot to this film. a man disappoints his daughter‚ has#a work meeting‚ suffers nightmares (or premonition). it sounds like nothing but it's executed with such precision‚ such razor sharp care#that it pins you down for 90 minutes. two setpieces in particular (one in the first 5 minutes‚ the other making up the final 20) are of a#level of technical artistry rarely seen in this genre‚ this era‚ this country. absolutely beautiful filmmaking‚ and for that i can forgive#it the small amount of flab around the middle. there's an awful lot going on with this film and simultaneously very little; i wrote more on#that on letterboxd but i don't really have the room for it here. Woodward stars (and is very much the centre) in a performance which is#typically (for him) very layered and very clever. actual dialogue is comparatively rare but he does a great deal with body language and#facial expression. that this never found huge success is perhaps unsurprising (it's a slow burn with emphasis on slow) but i really hope
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sun-ni-day · 3 months
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bonus:
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Numb3rs 5x03 Blowback
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celaenaeiln · 5 months
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Nothing in Batman comics is canon because it’s literally 90% fanfiction written after the actual creators stopped writing the characters.
anon it doesn't work that way.
By that logic, practically noone exists because the original writer of Batman, Bob Kane and Bill Finger, only created Bruce, Dick, Alfred, and the villains gallery. That's it.
No Barbara, no Jason, no Tim, no Damian, Steph, Cass, Duke, Lucius, Tim Fox, Kate, Talia - there's no one then.
But suppose we go back on that statement and say 'well actually, the creators of new characters', which still doesn't make sense but let's go with that. Then major plots wouldn't happen. Because Max Allan Collins and Chris Warner created Jason Todd but Judd Winick is the one who brought him back to life. Marv Wolfman and Pat Broderick created Tim Drake but Alan Grant wrote a lot of the Robin comic and Batman comic characterization for him.
It's physically impossible to say that just because other people continued the series, the comics can't be taken seriously.
Comics are the source material. Of which fanfics are based on.
The Star Trek and Star Wars book series are written by multiple different authors but that doesn't mean that what's written doesn't happen or isn't true or is wrong. The 39 Clues and Doctor Who series are the same deal.
Batman comics are canon. Because if only the works of the original authors of Batman were to be considered canon, then practically everyone in the Batman universe doesn't exist/doesn't matter. Because they're just fanfic then.
But this idea doesn't just stop at the Batman fandom anymore because every comic was written this way. The people in Superfam? Gone. Flashfam? Gone. Arrowfam? Gone. Like this logic doesn't just apply to Batman, it applies to virutally every character in the existence of DC.
The beauty of comics is seeing how the next writer will continue the story. Sometimes they're right, sometimes they need tweaking, and sometimes they're wrong although that's usually very rare.
The problem with fandom's view on comic writing is the belief that whatever the authors create must match our perspective of the characters. That's wrong. Their characterization is what we should be adding on/building on to our perspective of the characters. Unless there is something so wrong, something so illogical, that it must be noted because that character has never acted that way before, then we must discard or critisize a comic.
Comics develop. Characters develop. Each writer brings something new and adds a layer of depth to each character they write about. That's how we get new interactions, new relationships, new sides that make each character interesting.
Take the original Dick Grayson comic and his intro to Robin
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Detective Comics (1937) Issue #38
Dick originally wanted to go to the police. He had no intention of going after Tony Zucco but Bruce is the one who demands they go after him together by themselves!
I love this version created by Bob Kane and Bill Finger, but I also love the version created by a completely different author where Dick decides to stake out Zucco on his own. Both versions show different sides of him and authors sometimes even choose which one they want to include. Some have gone with this version where Dick tries to go to the police before being interrupted by Bruce and others have gone with the second, more famous version. But neither of them are bad and you can't say that the one where Dick goes after Tony Zucco is fanfiction. It's canon. If it's written in comics, it happened unless there's some disastrous, glaring contradiction.
You have to understand, these comics - especially Dick and Bruce's - are nearly 100 years old. Dick, and it's wild to think about this, existed before even the Justice League did. Wonder Woman, Green Arrow, and Aquaman were all created after him. If the orginial writers stopped writing, and noone picked it up, there would be no Justice League and that's a problem because the Justice League is one of the foundations of the DC comics.
So much has changed in a century and new writers constantly come in to show that change. That's why comics after the original writers finish writing are still canon and important. The original characterizations of all these major players were all super peppy and cheerful before new writers added angst and drama to their backstories. Bruce and Dick used to laugh and grin when they went crime fighting with no sadness or anger or other emotions. It wasn't until a couple decades later where writers started writing that in which is how we get the grim avenger Batman today.
Here's the third point to why they're relevant even though they're written by new authors: the passage of time in real life, is included in canon comics characterizations.
One comic talks about Dick discussing the Joker and he says, "at the beginning, it was just all fun and games. He would cause problems but at the end of the day it was a game. But one day, things went too far. People got shot. That day, the Joker changed. He was darker and evil. It wasn't games anymore."
This comic panel talks about the Golden Age to now, the progression and development of characters.
The comics and reality are inseparable because reality is literally written in. The works of writers after the orignal ones aren't arbitrary or some whimsical thing.
It's very different from fanfiction because fanfiction has no need to stick to the truth or canon characterization but these comic writers do because they have an obligation to do so. The only problem they might have is accidentally focusing too much on one aspect of a character and neglecting the other parts but almost none of them are way off the mark.
So no, for the sake of characterization, personality development, plot events, and new interactions, all comics are extremely important and definitely canon. Us readers might have different opinions and thoughts on them but it's irrelevant in the face of the fact that the comics are the only truth to which we can base our interpretations on.
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evilhorse · 10 months
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With this power he protected the defenseless.
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Welcome to the hottest 80s band tourney
In this tournament you can submit an band from the 80s here and we’ll see who’s the hottest
Submissions are now closed
Submission requirements
It must be a band no solo artists
I need a list of the members and the instrument they play
They had to have produced at least one album during the 80s
Choose the lineup that you want just make sure that they just all performed together during the 80s
For a list of the lineups check here a quicker list of submitted bands is down below. We are trying to get to 256 submissions so don’t worry about submitting to many bands.
List of submitted bands
will be updated
Guns’N Roses
Mötley Crüe
Queen
Hanoi Rocks
Iron Maiden
Poison
Rush
Anthrax
Possessed
Bon Jovi
Skid Row
Talking Heads
Warrant
The Cure
The Bangles
Def Leppard
The Traveling Wilburys  
U2
Dokken
Blondie
Duran Duran
Quiet Riot
Aerosmith
Dio
Metallica
Winger
The Human League
The Clash
Cinderella
Nirvana
The Smiths
The Police
They Might Be Giants
Bruce Springsteen and the E Street Band
R.E.M.
Spın̈al Tap
Tin Machine
Red Hot Chili Peppers
ZZ Top
AC/DC
Beastie Boys
Depeche Mode
The Pogues
Bauhaus
Prince and the Revolution
Joy Division
Fleetwood Mac
Devo
Van Halen
Van Halen (again)
Led Zeppelin
Joan Jett and The Blackhearts
Genesis
Primus
Ramones
Yes
Siouxsie and the Banshees
Kraftwerk
The Alan Parsons Project
Hall and Oates
Echo and the Bunnymen
Tears for Fears
The Psychedelic Furs
Misfits
Living Colour
XTC
Adam and the Ants
Run-DMC
King Crimson
Public Enemy
KISS
N.W.A.
Whitesnake
Black Sabbath
Deep Purple
L.A. Guns
W.A.S.P.
Pantera
Styx
B-52’s
Vixen
The Go Go’s
The Residents
Pretenders
Tom Petty and the Heartbreakers
Asia
Jethro Tull
Green Day
Journey
Wham!
Pet Shop Boys
The Who
Scorpions
Heart
Ratt
The Beach Boys
Queensrÿche
The Cars
Foreigner
Marillion
GWAR
Max Webster
Twisted Sister
Stray Cats
Megadeth
The Stone Roses
Slayer
Operation Ivy
Bam Bam
Cybotron
Steve Miller Band
The Highwaymen
10cc
Fugazi
Minor Threat
Dead Kennedys
Blackfoot
Stevie Ray Vaughan and Double Trouble
Dire Straits
Electric Light Orchestra
The J. Geils Band
Judas Priest
Motörhead
Crosby, Stills, Nash, & Young
Elvis Costello and the Attractions
Chicago
The Replacements
The Kinks
Pixies
Men at Work
Stryper
Faster Pussycat
Thin Lizzy
Grateful Dead
Sepultura
Bananarama
Nine Inch Nails
Foghat
Blue Öyster Cult
Culture Club
Tesla
Soundgarden
Berlin
Boston
Public Image Ltd
Pink Floyd
The Professionals
Starship
REO Speedwagon
Extreme
Shonen Knife
Night Ranger
De La Soul
Salt-N-Pepa
Earth, Wind & Fire
X
X Japan
The The
The Time
Steely Dan
Godley & Creme
The Tragically Hip
Dexys Midnight Runners
The Cross
Sonic Youth
Roxy Music
The Rolling Stones
Hüsker Dü
DJ Jazzy Jeff & the Fresh Prince
New Kids on the Block
Huey Lewis and the News
Eurythmics
A Flock of Seagulls
The Blues Brothers
Love and Rockets
Strawberry Switchblade
Los Lobos
Santana
Oingo Boingo
Grandmaster Flash and the Furious Five
A-ha
Crack the Sky
Crowded House
Yellow Magic Orchestra
Eric B. & Rakim
Commodores
Nick Cave and the Bad Seeds
KIX
White Zombie
UB40
Great White
Bruce Hornsby and the Range
White Lion
.38 Special
The Tubes
Utopia
The Sugarcubes
Faith No More
Throbbing Gristle
Ministry
'til tuesday
Sparks
Bob Seger and the Silver Bullet Band
The Oak Ridge Boys
The Judds
Dinosaur Jr.
The Moody Blues
Pat Metheney Group
INXS
Status Quo
Melvins
Pandora's Box
Orchestral Manoeuvres in the Dark
New Order
Meat Puppets
Descendents
The Fall
Spandau Ballet
Thompson Twins
Tom Tom Club
Jane's Addict
Bob Marley and the Wailers
Modern English
Cutting Crew
My Bloody Valentine
Black Flag
Wire
The Cult
The Jesus and Mary Chain
The Specials
Missing Persons
Simply Red
The Romantics
Madness
Violent Femmes
Skinny Puppy
Cocteau Twins
The Damned
Simple Minds
Frankie Goes to Hollywood
TISM (This Is Serious Mum)
The Cockroaches
The Allman Brothers Band
Cold Chisel
Midnight Oil
NOFX
The Crucifucks
America
Bad Religion
Helloween
Mother Love Bone
The KLF (a.k.a. The Justified Ancients of Mu Mu, a.k.a. The Timelords) [same group, just used numerous names]
Dog Police
Frank Chickens
Men Without Hats
Europe
Can I submit propaganda?
Not right now. If you do I won’t post it until the polls start which looking right now could be a while. But it will be posted eventually
can I submit more than one band?
yes!! Go wild
Some blogs that inspired this
@billboard-hotties-tourney
@the-80s-music-colosseum
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flashfuture · 2 months
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In 2001-2002 there were these little bits of Kyle Rayner's Green Lantern run by Judd Winnick that were heavily focused on sexuality. Mainly about Kyle's teenage assistant Terry Berg. Terry was assigned to help Kyle by the illustration company Kyle worked for. And they became pretty good friends. Kyle at this point in time lived in SoHo (Lower Manhattan) with Jennie Lynn-Hayden or Jade the daughter of the original Green Lantern Alan Scott. Jade for background is like a living Green Lantern ring and her skin is green because of this.
So let's get into the issue I'm going to discuss. Green Lantern vol 3 #137. This released in 2001
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So Kyle tells Terry he proposed to Jenny and she rejected him (they had recently gotten back together and she told him to slow his roll which he got but it still stung a bit) this made Terry very standoffish.
He and Kyle argue Terry says some pretty terrible things. Kyle yells at him for it.
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To which Terry starts crying and Kyle realizes Terry has a crush on him as he runs off.
Then Kyle's like manager? Andre or something comes and what follows is one of my favorite comic sequences ever. Modern comics on sexuality could never be this organically funny
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"God. What about you, Man. You're an unmarried artist living in Greenwich Village. What do you think people say about you?"
Yeah Kyle what do the people say about you?
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"Have you insulted anyone else about their sexual orientation this afternoon?"
"No just two, but the day isn't over..."
Very good Kyle set your goals high
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So then Kyle realizes he is the very last to figure out Terry was gay and thinks maybe he could use a therapist to talk it out with. To which Jenny calls him a moron because the only person Terry will want to talk it out with is Kyle and send him off to go tell Terry the truth. Whatever that means to Kyle
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Kyle's little cross "so" he's so awkward I'm obsessed. But Kyle starts giving Terry a pep talk. "And I don't really a lot of insight on this subject. But I do know this-- it's perfectly normal to ask these questions about yourself." And he promises Terry there is nothing wrong with him and Terry is getting pretty cheered up about it.
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And then Kyle makes it clear. He's real flattered however
"But I'm with someone."
"And you're not gay."
"No I'm not. And you're sixteen. And, like I said, I'm with someone."
There is a point here that Kyle is rejecting Terry on the ground of being a kid and Kyle is dating someone else. Terry is the one who brings up Kyle not being gay. Which Kyle confirms he's not gay. But this entire story hinges on Kyle having never thought about this and then sitting down besides a teenager with no clue what to say other than it's normal to question this about yourself.
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And the story ends off with Kyle and Terry joking around and a good hug and Kyle telling Terry he was very brave today.
[The next bit of Judd Winnick writing Kyle having personal feelings about sexuality as a whole is a much less feel good story. It's the Hate Crimes two issue arc in 2002. Which I discuss here if anyone is interested]
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