#same with Tywin and Daenerys

[leupagus]

The degree to which Davos and Brienne are going to become reluctant BFFs, because their lieges keep coming to them complaining about each other, is UNREAL

or, more from this fic that's slowly eating my life

~

Their journey to the Northern army's camp had revealed a great deal about Lady Stark and her lords and petty chieftains: their patronizing generosity, their gruff suspicion of outsiders, and above all their mind-boggling obstinacy. Ned and Lyanna had been much the same, from what he remembered, and Stannis had seen shades of it in Jon Snow, though couched more gently than he'd expected from a bastard. He'd imagined — insofar as he'd imagined her at all — that Lady Stark would be gentler still, her mother's line warming that chilled Northern blood.

He had been disastrously mistaken. It was a wonder only one Stark had survived, but it was already clear that she had gathered the entire share of Stark mulishness.

"I have conditions, Your Grace," said Lady Stark. "If this alliance is to succeed in retaking Winterfell, I feel it right that you hear them." She placed the parchment in her hand carefully on his table and stepped back, hands folded primly.

She had requested, and been granted, this conference shortly after Stannis's army had made camp alongside the Northern soldiers. Stannis's tent had barely been erected when she came to him with this parchment, her wolf, and a determined expression. He had thought he'd listened to her enough on the journey as she'd prattled away with Shireen, but he was in the mood to be permissive.

Reading through her list of demands, he could feel the headache building along his jaw and up through his skull. "Have you lost your mind?" he said, for the second time in a week to an unreasonable woman.

Melisandre had brushed his question aside, but Lady Stark was not made of such supple stuff; she stiffened and glowered at him. "That is a peculiar way to agree to my terms, Your Grace."

"Your terms are rather more than peculiar, my lady," he said, tossing the parchment back on the table.

In truth, the first one was not so peculiar: it said that should they regain the Keep, he would recognize Sansa Stark as Lady of Winterfell and Warden of the North in her own right. He would not pass her over in favor of some lesser Northern male relative, nor would he obligate her to marry and rule only as companion to her husband. Considering Stannis's own intention to ensure Shireen sat on the Iron Throne after his death, he could hardly begrudge her this.

Considering the other two stipulations, however, he felt very much inclined to begrudge her everything.

"Supposing your younger brothers turn up?" he asked, thrusting his chin at the parchment. "Or Jon Snow is legitimized?"

This question didn't faze her, he suspected because it was a question of logistics and protocol rather than a personal remark. "If Jon is made legitimate, I don't believe he would want Winterfell—"

"Duty is not a question of wanting, Lady Stark," he reminded her. "And the Lord Commander is—"

"The Lord Commander, as you say, is the Lord Commander of the Night's Watch," she retorted. "His life has already been pledged to the Wall. If he didn't abandon that cause in aid of my brother Robb, he won't abandon it now."

Stannis observed her. There was bitterness there, certainly, though less than he would have thought. Lady Stark clearly understood the ties that bound men to their duty, even if she did not like them.

"However," she continued, "Should any of my brothers wish to make a claim to Winterfell in my place, I won't stand against them." She paused for a moment, and added, "I have no wish to die at their hands out of misplaced pride."

Stannis clenched his jaw but let that go for the moment — it would be addressed soon enough. "You call me 'Your Grace,'" he said, tapping at the parchment, "Yet your second stipulation says that you will not bend the knee to me, even if I regain Winterfell for you."

"No, it says that I will not bend the knee to any claimant to the throne until they hold the majority of the kingdoms," she shot back. "The Lannisters hold the Crownlands, the Westerlands and the Reach at present. The Riverlands are still in chaos, the Vale has withdrawn from all alliances to sulk in their mountains, and both Dorne and the Iron Islands have declared for themselves, more or less. You can, at best, claim that the Stormlands still support you, though I've seen no evidence for it — they didn't march under your banner at first, did they?"

That was the second time she had brought up Renly, however obliquely. If she were trying to drive him mad, she couldn't go about it any better. "When I hold the North, my lady, I will have more land—"

"Setting aside the notion that it will be you alone who holds the North, you'll have more land and fewer men than any other region. If you wish to win against the Lannisters, you'll need more than mountains and glaciers fighting your battles. And if I wish to be Warden of the North, I can't keep the respect of my lords by swearing fealty to a man who has yet to earn it."

"I could have you burned for such talk," he said, getting to his feet and pouring himself some water, hoping it would ease the throbbing in his head.

"You don't burn nobles, you behead them," she replied cooly. "I should know. I was there when the Lannisters took my own father's head for supporting your claim to the Iron Throne. I have no intention of sharing his fate." She took a deep breath, and only then did he note that her hands had been clenched together, her right covering the balled-up fist of her left. "I won't take arms against you now or in the future, on that I give my word."

"And if I do have you beheaded?" he asked, putting the tin cup down before he crumpled it in his hand.

It seemed to amuse her. "Then my words will mean even less than they do now."

"They mean nothing, because you will not give them!" He pinched his nose and attempted to regain his composure. Surprisingly difficult, with this — child.

She regarded him for a moment. "You call me Lady Stark, Your Grace," she said, "but tell me, have you heard anyone else call me that?"

Stannis, thrown by the question, was forced to consider it. In truth, he had heard only Lady Sansa, though said with more reverence by her men and lords than he could ever recall being addressed himself. "You are Lady Stark."

"Not without Winterfell," she said, shaking her head. "It's more than just the home of the Starks, it is our…place in the world. We belong nowhere else. Just as there must always be a Stark at Winterfell, so too do we need Winterfell to truly be Starks." She gave him a pointed look. "Just as Your Grace needs the Iron Throne, and the fealty of all the Seven Kingdoms, to truly be king."

She was wrong, of course, but Stannis felt the same lurch in his belly whenever his footing slipped during a bout. "Perhaps your reticence has something to do with this last stipulation," he said instead, going back to the table and jabbing his finger at the third line. "Falsely accusing a king is treason."

"Is Lady Brienne falsely accusing you, Your Grace?" she asked, smooth as ice. Her hands were still clenched, he noted.

"I was nowhere near Renly's camp when he died," Stannis said, with perfect truth, even as he felt himself balanced on a knife's edge.

He had been nowhere near. He had woken up just before dawn with the lead weight of certainty in his belly, knowing what had happened — what the Red Woman had said must happen — and lying there, staring up at the tent's canvas, he had wept. Wept for the brothers he had loved and who had never loved him back. He would never know if Renly had had a hand in Robert's death; just as he would never know if he himself had had a hand in Renly's. Had he ordered Melisandre to kill him? Had he believed her when she said she could make such a thing come to pass? Davos had begged to tell him of what had happened in the cave that night, what monstrous thing the Red Woman had done to bring Renly's death about. Stannis had refused to hear it. Perhaps there was a sort of rough justice in facing his accuser now, the only one living who knew the truth.

"Lady Brienne has served me faithfully," said Lady Stark, "and my mother before me, at great cost to herself. I believe her testimony, Your Grace."

"Her testimony that I murdered my own brother."

Lady Stark regarded him steadily. "I will not insult either of you by declaring one more honorable than the other. But when I regain Winterfell, my duty as Warden of the North will be to adjudicate all such matters, and this falls under my purview. Even if you were crowned King of the Seven Kingdoms in the Red Keep itself, the North holds all persons, regardless of title, under its laws while they reside here."

"Renly didn't die in the North," was all he could manage to say.

"He died, Your Grace." Lady Stark looked almost pitying. "And for that, I'm sorry. I know what it is to lose your brothers. But on this point I will not waver."

"Is there any point on which you have?" he asked, curious.

She continued serenely. "Lady Brienne will be permitted to make her accusation publicly; how you respond to it is your affair, but if you prevail, you must give me your word now that she will not be held guilty of treason, nor will she be killed by any member of your party by any means." She put enough emphasis on the last two words to make her meaning plain.

"And if she prevails?" Stannis asked. "Your stipulations do not mention the outcome of the trial, only that it will take place." He smiled grimly. "Your father always said that he who passes the sentence should swing the sword, my lady. Will you behead me yourself?"

"I doubt either of us would find that a pleasant exercise, Your Grace," she said, her lip curling slightly. She didn't blanch, however; young as she was, she had seen worse. Had possibly done worse, if the rumors about the Purple Wedding were true. He'd not asked. "If you are found guilty, then you will ride south. If you win the support of the other kingdoms, the North will bend the knee to you. But you'll never come north of the Neck again. Does that satisfy?"

Stannis glanced down at the parchment again. There it all was, in black and white: the price he must pay for the North. The blasted girl had even provided a space for him to sign at the bottom.

"Not remotely," he said, but reached for his pen.

#got: bitches get stuff done #game of thrones motherfuckers #the more I write these two together the more I'm mad that they never got to meet #same with Tywin and Daenerys #(although that's mostly due to watching too many Charles Dance interviews where he gushes over Clarke's performances) #(as he should!) #but some of the most interesting characters never got a chance to meet and it's a TRAVESTY #anyway #I've read a fair amount of GOT fic and none of them so far have written Stannis-Sansa interactions the way I feel that they would go #which is as you can tell: poorly #just let them be bitches!!! god!!!!!! #also don't even worry brienne is absolutely going to kick stannis's ass even if she doesn't kill him #she should get little an attempted murder as a treat

[encrucijada]

i haven't been able to write in days but i have a new oc to play dolls with my friends because i got possessed and started watching game of thrones

#that is all your honour no further comments #her form is already half-filled like i can't write but Boy do i want to engage in the art of creating #also can i share my game of thrones opinions #there are too many povs per episode snd it distracts from Every Single Storyline #each episode should have like 2 povs Max because it's hard to get invested wuth so much getting thrown at you at the same time #also the acting performances are the best part of the show. everything else is... okay #also also. why were people so obsessed with jon snow he's literally just some guy (i know the twist don't even @ me) #^ this too with daenerys except she's not just some guy she's just annoying lol. and her plot is white saviour-y which 🤢 #literally catelyn and tywin are my favourite Only because they have given the most compelling performances #but i digress. #pia.txt

[jackoshadows]

The level of utterly hypocritical discourse in the asoiaf fandom.

About Sansa:

Same person about Robb and Jon:

Same person about Dany:

I simply love how there are these multipage essays and economic treatises on how Robb, Jon, Dany Et al. fuck up and fumble and are just bad leaders who don't enforce wage regulations and clause three of the constitution in worker's rights or plan army discipline and Jon is apparently just an 'angry teenager' unfit for leadership etc.

But Sansa? QUEEN IN THE NORTH because she's the blood of Winterfell! ITS WHAT SHE DESERVES NARRATIVELY.

And Sansa, who is currently 13, should be queen because the narrative says so! When, according to the same person, 16 year olds Jon and Robb fuck up as they are too young to be good rulers as per the same narrative that tells them that Sansa will be Queen...

That's what the narrative is telling us - that characters can become the best rulers/leaders simply because of their blood and has nothing to do with experience and learning and wisdom and hey look at Dany, Robb and Jon fucking up when Sansa will magically, simply be the best - the NARRATIVE SAYS SO!

Meanwhile GRRM on ruling:

One thing that I am trying to get at in the books, the political aspect if you would, is to kind of show that this stuff is hard. I think that an awful lot of fantasy and even some great fantasy falls under the mistake of assuming that a good man would be a good king and all that is necessary is to be a decent human being and then when you are king everything will go swimmingly. Tolkien is great but we never get into the nitty gritty of Aragorn ruling. What is his tax policy? How does he feel about crop rotation? How does he handle land disputes between two nobles, both of whom think that they should have the village, so they burn it down to establish their claim. This is the hard part of ruling be it in the middle ages or now. It’s not enough to be a good man to be an effective ruler. It’s complicated and it’s hard and I wanted to show that with repeated examples in my books with my kings and hand of the kings - the prime minister if you would - trying to rule. And whether it be Ned Stark or Tyrion Lannister or Tywin Lannister or Daenerys Targaryen or Cersei Lannister trying to deal with the real challenges that affect anyone trying to rule the 7K or even a city like Meereen and it’s hard. You know, we can all read the books or read history and say oh, so and so was stupid and made a lot of mistakes and look at all these stupid mistakes they make. But these kind of mistakes are always much more apparent in hind sight than when you are actually faced with the decision about, oh my God, what would I do in this situation. How do I resolve this thing? Do I do the moral thing? But what about  the political consequences of the moral thing? Do I do the pragmatic, cynical thing and kind of screw the people who are screwed by it? I mean, it is HARD. And I want to get to all of that - GRRM

Apparently, when it comes to Sansa, GRRM will be saying:

" I mean, it (ruling) is EASY. The food conundrums that Jon and Dany are unable to solve in entire books will be easily tackled by Sansa who will just ask everyone to bring their grain to Winterfell! Easy peasy and one and done! I mean, Sansa is the BLOOD OF WINTERFELL! "

These chucklefucks don't know the first thing about narratives and themes. The result of GRRM not writing a book in 13 years is wading through shite like this.

#fandom nonsense

[aphroditelovesu]

Could you rank the GOT yanderes on a scale of 1-7 based on how they treat Modern!Reader, 1 being beneath the yan, 4 being like an equal, and 7 being above the yan?

Hmm... It's a complicated question since there are several characters, but I'll list a few specifically. If you want others, just send them!

Cersei Lannister: 7 because we're talking about her. She's a scary yandere. Cersei is very possessive and controlling and if Modern!Reader doesn't do what she wants, it could end in disaster for them.

Daenerys Targaryen: 6. She's not as scary as Cersei, but she's not calm either. I think it depends on the stage at which you find her. If it's before her arrival in Westeros, then it would be a 5 but if it's after, a 6 almost a 7. Just be careful with her temper.

Jon Snow: 3. Jon is a soft yandere and you can't change my mind. He is very easygoing and due to his low self-esteem, he would never want to inflict harm on Modern!Reader. He cares a lot and one of the only overwhelming feelings he has is overprotection.

Joffrey Baratheon: 7. This one doesn't even need explanations. Joffrey is a sadist by nature and although he may adore Modern!Reader, I still see him wanting to hurt them as a way of breaking their affection. Besides being possessive.

Tywin Lannister: 6. Tywin is complicated, although he can be a dangerous yandere, he wouldn't be for Modern!Reader but for others. He would never hurt them, he cares about them too much for that. Tywin can punish them, but it would never be physically.

Tyrion Lannister: 4. Tyrion is very calm about his obsession and would hardly do anything against Modern!Reader. He likes them and sees them as a kind of friend and confidant. Tyrion is not demanding or overprotective, but he tends to protect Modern!Reader from several things, one of them being Joffrey.

Jaime Lannister: 5. Jaime is very calm too, he's not exactly possessive but he likes having Modern!Reader's attention on him. He likes to impress them and is protective. Jaime would never do anything to hurt them and often joins his brother in protecting them.

Margaery Tyrell: 6. Margaery is extremely manipulative and because of this, she sees no reason to try to hurt Modern!Reader because she knows she will have your attention. She is possessive too, wanting them for herself, but she is not demanding. She takes whatever she can.

Jorah Mormont: 5. Jorah is a worshipful and desperate yandere. He wants to be loved by his darling above all else and he will be willing to do whatever it takes to get that. Mormont would never hurt his darling, but he can become aggressive when provoked.

Sansa Stark: 4. Sansa poses no danger to her darling, but can pose a threat to others depending on the situation. She is not possessive but can get irritated if she doesn't have her attention.

Arya Stark: 6. Arya is very intelligent and has violent tendencies and although she will never hurt Modern!Reader, she is not against the idea of ​​keeping them to herself. She just wants to protect and take care of them and in her own way.

Sandor Clegane: 5. Sandor is not the demanding or really possessive type of Modern!Reader, he spends as much time as he can with them and accepts anything. The biggest danger is how protective Sandor is over them, having no qualms about killing anyone who looks the other way at Modern!Reader.

Gregor Clegane: 7. Gregor is violent, aggressive and very possessive of Modern!Reader. He will beat anyone to death just for breathing the same air as you. Gregor could also be willing to inflict pain on you and will feel good about it.

Khal Drogo: 7. No explanation per se, Drogo is violent by nature and extremely possessive. While he's not going to inflict pain on Modern!Reader, Drogo can be a very scary yandere.

Viserys III Targaryen: 7. Viserys is out of control and easily irritated, making him willing to hurt Modern!Reader if he deems it necessary. In addition to being possessive and petty.

#yandere game of thrones #got #game of thrones #yandere got #yandere cersei lannister #yandere daenerys targaryen #yandere jon snow #yandere Joffrey Baratheon #yandere tywin lannister #yandere jamie lannister #yandere tyrion Lannister #yandere margaery tyrell #yandere jorah mormont #yandere sansa stark #yandere arya stark #yandere sandor clegane #yandere gregor clegane #yandere khal drogo #yandere viserys iii targaryen #concept #yandere concept

[pessimisticpigeonsworld]

So I'm not totally sure how prevalent this idea is with Daenerys antis, but I've seen more than one person talk about how Dany was racist towards the Dothraki and Ghiscari. This is, of course, ridiculous. Dany embraces both these cultures when she lives among them and even considers staying with them multiple times. Yes, she disagrees with and is even disturbed by some of the traditions these cultures have, but these traditions are ones of slavery, rape, and injustice. We the readers should also recognize these are not good traditions.

In every culture, there are traditions that are harmful, this is an unfortunate consequence of our humanity. No matter what country, city, etc you are coming from, there are things in the history of the place and people that are not good. The same is true of the world of ASOIAF. Slavery of Old and New Ghis, the right of the First Night in the North, the Ironborn's practice of taking thralls and salt wives, the Dothraki raping the women of whomever they defeat, the human experimentation in Valyrian, the invading armies of Westeros raping and burning the smallfolk. All these are practices meant to be condemned by the reader and acknowledged by povs as being wrong. Acknowledging a huge flaw like legal rape and fucking slavery is not being racist!

When Viserys calls the Dothraki barbarians and is actually racist towards them, Dany defends them and claims them as her own people. After all, she believes at this point that she will spend the rest of her life among the Dothraki. Now someone could try to argue that Dany refusing to stay a Khaleesi in the Dothraki Sea after Viserys' death is an example of her looking down on them ("If I were not the blood of the dragon...this could be my home.")

However, this is, firstly, not about race, second of all, this isn't about her thinking she's better than them, this is about her perceived duty to her house. Viserys raised her to believe it is their duty to their house to reclaim the IT, and not that he's dead, the duty lies solely on her and her unborn child. She isn't the only character who sacrifices her happiness out of perceived duty, Jon joins the Night's Watch because of this and literally anything Tyrion does on Tywin's orders or for Cersei.

With the Ghiscari, Dany only has issues with the slavers. She loves the slaves and is driven to free them, and, let me remind everyone, slavery in ASOIAF is not race-driven, that was another thing the show fucked up on. When Dany rules in Meereen, she embraces the culture quickly, just like with the Dothraki. She wears the traditional clothing, learns Ghiscari, and has Ghiscari nobles and freedmen on her counsel.

Any and all negative thoughts and associations Dany has with Ghiscari traditions (the tokar, the wedding ceremony) are because of the false peace and the continued power of the slavers. She hates how it feels to put on the tokar because it's a reminder that she is constantly compromising with the slavers and is allowing the Astapori and Yunkai'i slaves to fall back into chains. She doesn't want to marry Hizdahr because she knows he is working with the Harpy and he is constantly pressuring her to give into other demands by the slavers. The only traditions Dany has issues with are associated with slavery and the false peace in Meereen.

Daenerys isn't ever racist towards the Dothraki or Ghiscari, she values their council, and respects their traditions except the ones revolving around rape and slavery. She is only driven to take the IT because of perceived duty to her house. Daenerys is unhappy in Meereen because she hates slavery and is dissatisfied with the false peace there.

#daenerys targaryen #anti dany antis #asoiaf #meereen #dothraki #viserys iii targaryen #pro daenerys #queen daenerys

[swordsandarms]

So much ping-pong-ing between Rhaegar and Aerys/Tywin/Gregor that most people forget the Rebels were always going to kill those children - Tywin/Gregor just saved them half a face in having Robert/Jon Arryn/Ned Stark only condoning it instead of carrying out the deed themselves. (Jaime literally spells it out but he's only considered as spelling out "hard truths" when it's about Aerys - a Targaryen - only).

After the Trident, Ned went on South to "win Robert a throne". Robert's claim/ascension couldn't exist or mentain itself as long as they were alive, the boys in particular. Aegon was always going to die (and Viserys if they caught him). At the hands of the "good" Rebels, yes. The girls might be valuable to strengthen the claims of Robert's sons, perhaps. But you'll really have people wistfully dreaming about "Rhaenys living" and portray her as hating her Targaryen family and somehow not the Rebels? (Yes, including Ned Stark, because, yes, Starks would be monsters to her, too). They would have killed her baby brother and forced Joffrey on her. They would force her into marriage to carry children for them as they eventually would've Sansa.

As to it being all due to Rhaegar, people sure love to theorise about what the whole alliances moves among the Lords meant even before that (because out with the nasty Targs, yay!) and not the fact that...it always meant killing the babies, too. Yes, it eventually all happened in a hurry in response to Aerys' actions, but think: Brandon>Catelyn>Ned>Arryn>Robert>Lyanna (+Tywin trying to get on with Lysa>Jaime). They are all circling Robert, the one who would push a Targaryen ancestry claim later on. Not a "give us Aerys and Rhaegar/justice and then innocent Aegon can have his throne".

I saw this post about "Ned can only be seen as kind as long as you don't have Theon's side of things" because Theon is one of the child victims in between the squabbles to give to and keep Robert's throne. And Ned would have killed him, if needed, and everyone needs to accept it.

But it is the same with Aegon and Rhaenys. People are getting so lost in the fact that he feels sorry about it and the fact that he won't stand for the murder of Daenerys' literal baby, or hiding Jon, and of Cersei's in older age, that the truth slips through: it is guilt; it is not wanting to be complicit in child murder again. (And with Cersei's children is blurred lines, because he will be the one lawfully and dutifully setting Robert on them and knows his "fury will follow them to the end of earth").

#asoiaf #ned stark #robert baratheon #elia martell #rhaegar targaryen #daenerys targaryen #aegon vi targaryen #jon snow #rhaenys targaryen

[agentrouka-blog]

Targaryens were not magically attracted to each other, it was social conditioning that made it ok for them to be so. Cultures where cousin marriage is allowed, cousins do feel attraction and love towards each other. Cultures where its seen as taboo, no one would even think like that. Its the same for sibling incest. No normal person wakes up one day and gets attracted to their sibling or someone they think of as a sibling, there are always some influencing external factors. You can say Jaime/Cersei but they were influenced by Tywin's ambition of wanting to be like Targaryens. His mentality that Lannister are superior to other lesser mortals is exactly that of Targaryens and this reasoning is what Jaehaerys used to justify sibling incest. So Jaime and Cersei literally grew up hearing this, why won't they think its okay for them to love each other like Targaryens, after all their father wanted to be like them in all other aspects? This is why I think its impossible for Jon to ever feel attraction towards Arya and vice versa, because they wholeheartedly think of each other as siblings and they have grown up without any conditioning that makes sibling incest okay, meanwhile with Sansa there is always the added factor of them considering the other 'half' sibling, its not always spelled out but they are written in such a way that we do get the gist they love each other but its not the same as with their other 'actual' siblings. George has really done his best to lay the ground to make any romantic relationship between digestible lmao.

(post referenced)

Hi anon!

Ah yes, that non-existent magical Targ attraction that is invoked to cover up the level of generational trauma and legacy of abuse and indoctrination that informs these "choices".

I mean, this sure as hell is not meant to be viewed with alarm, I suppose:

Daenerys said nothing. She had always assumed that she would wed Viserys when she came of age. For centuries the Targaryens had married brother to sister, since Aegon the Conqueror had taken his sisters to bride. The line must be kept pure, Viserys had told her a thousand times; theirs was the kingsblood, the golden blood of old Valyria, the blood of the dragon. Dragons did not mate with the beasts of the field, and Targaryens did not mingle their blood with that of lesser men. Yet now Viserys schemed to sell her to a stranger, a barbarian. (AGOT, Daenerys I)

If he had been nicer to her, would Dany have coped with this expectation by talking herself into a devoted attraction to her heroic older brother who protected her all her life? Much like Sansa invented a palatable reality with Joffrey after the Trident?

And the thing is, never mind Cersei and Jaime those two warped Targ-cosplayers, even relationship between Jon and Sansa is absolutely due to a traumatic fracture within the Stark family dynamic.

Ned's claimed infidelity, Jon's resulting bastardy, and most of all the patriarchic power Ned had, to place Jon into the rest of their family without any explanation or any consent from Catelyn... that's a massive ripple in what otherwise masquerades as harmonious and respectful mutual treatment. It introduces the brutal power differential between men and women, between upper and lower classes right into the middle of their childhood home.

For most of the siblings this is a thing they block out enough to foster a close relationship with Jon - and they ignore or cannot yet grasp what this truly means for him, for Catelyn, for society in general. But they do know, from Bran to Arya to Robb, they know.

And so does Sansa, and her comparative isolation from the boys and identification with Cat's role makes her perhaps the most aware of what Jon represents, for himself and for her. Double realities and denial are a defensive trait she develops. As is her idealisation of romance.

His identity and the way he grows up privileged but without permanence - it others Jon. Not only to his family, but also to himself, who grows up with (to him) shameful longings for unattainable things, and a fear of the social prejudices against his core character. He has no normal relationship with himself, with his desires, with his identity.

The mix of distance and closeness, the discomfiting breach of a social boundary in the pursuit of a deep-seated longing for repair... that's definitely a part of Jonsa. They are receptive to each other in a way they normally would not be. They are a bit wonky that way. But unlike with the Targaryren practice of incest, theirs is a voluntary, spontaneous attraction they will freely struggle with or act upon at their own volition.

Basically, while the relationship becomes "magically" okay through the surprise revelation of RLJ, we are still talking about an attraction and romance that would not be happening if they had not also grown up warped at their core.

Luckily for them, there is that escape clause.

You did it to yourself, Ned.

#jonsa #anti targaryen #coping mechanism #family dynamics #sansa stark #jon snow

[sophiemariepl]

I know I’m gonna sound like a boomer again, but I really miss the times when we could appreciate a fictional character without having to morally excuse their actions. And yes, this is again about Game of Thrones and House of the Dragon.

(I know that someone already wrote it here, but I feel like we need to stress it out more.)

Like, one of the main reasons why I find the HotD fandom so annoying and unbearable is that way too many individuals active in it conflate how well a particular character is written with how moral they are as a person.

But here it does not even seem to stem from any good deeds that they do, as it was in the case of Daenerys fandom (or at least, most of the time it does not seem to stem from it). Here, basically, all that matters is personal liking towards the character - if someone likes a particular character, they immediately jump to idealize them. Almost as if people were ashamed to admit that they like a character that is morally flawed or imperfect??

I already wrote in one of my previous posts about the Rhaenyra-Alicent dichotomy which is a great example of this phenomenon in the HotD fandom. I’m not gonna repeat myself here, so if you wanna know about which dichotomy I’m talking, go check out this post.

Coming back to my main point that is complaining, I miss the times when people could freely admit that they loved the Lannisters specifically because they are toxic, cruel and cunning (maybe except for Jeoffrey, I think that Jeoffrey was less appreciated and more universally hated 😜). Because they still appreciated the way the Lannisters were written. The political mind of Tywin, Tyrion’s wit, Cersei’s and Jamie’s toxicity, and the complexity of their characters.

Did they commit awful things, either to advance their family politically or for their personal gain? Yes.

Does that deny that they were extremely well written, as three-dimensional, multi-layered people? No.

Of course, I’m using the Lannisters only as an example, because I cannot list every single character of that sorts in here.

Having given this example tho, it makes me wonder why people cannot adopt the same approach to HotD. What’s the problem with using it in one was or another towards Otto Hightower, Alicent, Rhaenyra, Corlys Velaryon and Rhaenys Targaryen, or perhaps even most importantly, to Daemon?

Does this approach make you feel bad about yourselves, HotD fans? Are you ashamed to think that you like a character that is actually an awful person? Or is it that you just assume that every character that you like has to be a morally good person?

I’m genuinely asking.

#a song of ice and fire #game of thrones #house of the dragon #got #hotd #hotd fans #hotd fandom #hotd comment #hotd commentary #house targaryen #house hightower #house lannister #daemon targaryen #otto hightower #corlys velaryon #viserys i targaryen #rhaenyra targaryen #alicent hightower #tywin lannister #jamie lannister #cersei lannister #tyrion lannister

[resident-idiot-simp]

Hi just dropping this and running

Direwolf shifter Ghost

Wildling or Benjen stark Soap

Night Commander Price

Nights watch steward Gaz

Maester or Daenerys Laswell (she deserves dragons)

Faceless man roach

Night king Markarov

Tywin Lannister Shepherd

Sell sword Graves

Martell Alejandro

Sand viper Rudy

Grey joy Roba

The ending to GoT was trash but it’s fun to play around with the world

Have a good day bye

It has been a while since I have thought about GoT but I'm always ready to hear it I have a Targaryen shit myself.

Direwolf shifter Ghost is absolutely correct and I love that.

Soap is a wilding for sure (Scottish coded)

Night commander Price and guard Gaz is based af protective bastards the both of them.

DAENERYS LASWELL IS THE ONLY THING I WILL HERE OUT BOTH TOP TIER CHARACTERS!

Yeah Makarov has to be the Night king.

Tywin Lannister is absolutely Shepherd coded both bastard old men.

Wrong Graves is Geoffrey and I will not elaborate.

Martell as Alejandro is Right for numerous reasons yes.

Sand Viper Rudy is also correct for the same reasons.

Gray Joy is a maybe for Roba but I'm not 100% confident

(It's been a long time I didn't watch the whole series so I'm not the most knowledgeable on the subject. But I love this as an AU)

#cod modern warfare #call of duty modern warfare #john soap mactavish #simon ghost riley #GoT #game of thrones #john price #kyle gaz garrick #manuel roba #phillip graves #general shepherd

[buttercuparry]

If your take on many of the characters in the asoiaf series is based on the metaphor of toilet cleaning, with a few jabs thrown in that does nothing but reinforce the same lame ass take that you and your fellow people in the fandom circle agree on, then that in fact is no more clever than a brick resting on a dirt mound.

Now this is a funny post I guess. A clever post, OP thinks for sure. They preface it by saying that the best metric to judge someone is by finding out how, they feel about toilet cleaning. And of course, they say, since Asoiaf is about a bunch of noble borns, their aversion to toilet cleaning shines through in immaculate detail. The few exceptions out of those nobles are included in op's post, but the final conclusion is that all but one of them is normal about toilet cleaning.

And I absolutely have no qualms with Op's conclusion. To each their own after all. But since, in their very own style, the post has the same old flavour of insinuating that Arya Stark only plays at being disadvantaged after Ned Stark's death, I felt like I should impart some more flavour to balance it out.

As we see in the above excerpt of Op's toilet cleaning adventures, it is implied that the problem Arya has is with the toilet cleaning in itself. For those who are still confused, the metaphor of toilet cleaning references the manual labor that goes in running a castle- scrubbing floors, fetching water, delivering messages etc. So the way of life a lowborn is forced to live in Westeros. I can't help but see how even when op uses the word "slave" in reference to Arya's position in Harrenhal, it never really got translated in their understanding of what slavery means. Being a slave/prisoner of war in Harrenhal meant that this wasn't an employment. This was the complete ownership of Arya by those who instructed her and thus by those, who had the command of the castle. Pretty sure that slavery which has been the running theme of Grrm's books is said to be unbearable even when the slave is wearing the golden collar in place of chains (remember Daenerys?). In my understanding, Arya hates herself and everyone involved less for the toilet cleaning and more for the fact that this toilet cleaning is forced on every single prisoner of war, and they can't say no because saying no leads to death. Like pretty sure she witnessed a girl getting raped every night and when the girl finally said no by attacking her rapist, she was promptly cut down. I also have this passage that details what led up to Arya's toilet cleaning slavery at Harrenhal. Let's have a look shall we?

Their captors permitted no chatter. A broken lip taught Arya to hold her tongue. Others never learned at all. One boy of three would not stop calling for his father, so they smashed his face in with a spiked mace. Then the boy's mother started screaming and Raff the Sweetling killed her as well.

Arya watched them die and did nothing. What good did it do you to be brave? One of the women picked for questioning had tried to be brave, but she had died screaming like all the rest. There were no brave people on that march, only scared and hungry ones. Most were women and children. The few men were very old or very young; the rest had been chained to that gibbet and left for the wolves and the crows. Gendry was only spared because he'd admitted to forging the horned helm himself; smiths, even apprentice smiths, were too valuable to kill.

They were being taken to serve Lord Tywin Lannister at Harrenhal, the Mountain told them. "You're traitors and rebels, so thank your gods that Lord Tywin's giving you this chance. It's more than you'd get from the outlaws. Obey, serve, and live

Obey, serve and live. That's the toilet cleaning op of the excerpt references to. And then there comes the topic of Arya mellowing out to the toilet cleaning (slavery) after her very own "murder-by-proxy spree". Now I don't mean to assume, but it feels like op has gone down the same drain of Arya the murder baby trope, where it is believed that murdering people is just another way for Arya Stark to decompress after a stressful week at work. When a slave is forced to slavery, and gets the means by which they can attack the slaver to strike down their chains- I am pretty sure it is natural that they would feel some type of way about it. They would feel that now they have some control and is no more the toilet cleaning mouse. The regaining of agency is the difference between the mouse and the wolf. It is less about toilet cleaning and more about agency since, Arya "the once toilet cleaning mouse" seemed to voluntarily want to be a part of the crew onboard of a ship. Now idk much about sailing, but this I can say, being on a ship earning your keep involves a looooot of toilet cleaning for sure.

I have no more energy to dissect the last throwaway statement but I am happy it is finally being recognized that the death cult is truly a way to cope, when half of your family is dead and you can't do anything about it because the people in power have caused that death. Hopefully it would soon translate into seeing the list as a coping mechanism too and no more bullshit about being a mindless murder baby

#arya stark #a song of ice and fire #valyrianscrolls

[elia-nymmeros]

""A start?" said Ellaria Sand, incredulous. "Gods forbid. I would it were a finish. Tywin Lannister is dead. So are Robert Baratheon, Amory Lorch, and now Gregor Clegane, all those who had a hand in murdering Elia and her children. Even Joffrey, who was not yet born when Elia died. I saw the boy perish with mine own eyes, clawing at his throat as he tried to draw a breath. Who else is there to kill? Do Myrcella and Tommen need to die so the shades of Rhaenys and Aegon can be at rest? Where does it end?" "It ends in blood, as it began," said Lady Nym. "It ends when Casterly Rock is cracked open, so the sun can shine on the maggots and the worms within. It ends with the utter ruin of Tywin Lannister and all his works."" The Watcher, ADwD

Rereading ADwD, one of the most interesting aspects of the Dorne plot for me is that constantly, over and over again, the elder Sand Snakes mock Doran for his perceived weakness, for being slow to act, for planning and disguising and lying instead of outright fighting, claiming that he was a lesser man compared to Oberyn, and yet part of me wonders what they thought/might've thought of Elia while she lived, especially when Gregor's head was brought back to Dorne and the Sand Snakes demanded vengeance not only for Oberyn, but also for Elia and her children.

"Her sister Tyene gave answer. "What he always does," she purred. "Delay, obscure, prevaricate. Oh, no one does that half so well as our brave uncle."" The Watcher, ADwD

It's hard to know because we only have second-handed accounts, but we've been told that Elia was someone agreeable, kind, with a good heart, someone precisely like Doran and very unlike Oberyn. No account of Elia presents her as a bold, outspoken, bloodthirsty, or vengeful woman, which of course doesn't mean that she wasn't, but it means that she didn't choose to present herself as one in front of Dorne and King's Landing court; in fact, some people even remember her as "drab" and "frail". It's very poignant to see the Sand Snakes asking to spill blood and kill innocent people in the name of a woman dead some 17 years ago who, as a matter of fact, probably never wanted to see the entirety of Casterly Rock and Oldtown destroyed and slain, children and smallfolk included.

"Princess Elia was a good woman, Your Grace. She was kind and clever, with a gentle heart and a sweet wit." ADwD, Daenerys IV

""We could kill him, to be sure," said Tyene, "but then we would need to kill the rest of his party too, even those sweet young squires. That would be … oh, so messy."" ADwD, The Watcher

It's interesting for me that they learned this bloodthirsty attitude from Oberyn, who of course had almost two decades of virulent resentment because the brutal rape and murder of his sister and her children went unpunished, but who was also the man who probably knew Elia the best and what ideas she held about retribution, not some idealized version of a woman who they probably don't remember. Part of me wonders if the Sand Snakes wouldn't have found Elia cowardly and weak and useless too, simply because she displayed the same ideas about politics and power than Doran, because all accounts of Elia (all three of them) shows us a genuinely gentle and easy-going person who did not murder and poison her way to power as it is common in the royal court.

"I am not blind, nor deaf. I know that you all believe me weak, frightened, feeble. Your father knew me better (...)" The Watcher, ADwD

"It must have been the madness that led Aerys to refuse Lord Tywin's daughter and take his son instead, whilst marrying his own son to a feeble Dornish princess with black eyes and a flat chest." AFfC, Cersei V

I'm not saying that Elia wouldn't have wanted The Mountain dead or that the Sand Snakes were in the wrong for wanting their family members avenged, because Tywin Lannister and his lackeys were evil men who committed several crimes against the Martells and faced no direct repercussions, but the extreme level of hatred that the Sand Snakes show towards everyone who happens to be named Lannister, their willingness to go to a war they cannot hope to win with allies they aren't sure they can trust without any kind of well-thought plan, and the constant derision they show towards Doran and his attitudes... part of me feels like Elia has already been forgotten by them, replaced by an empty figurehead who they can rally around and use to justify their cruelty, while at the same time disdaining the same attitudes that Elia herself was known for...

"Written? If you were half the man my father was—" AFfC, The Captain of Guards.

""Obara would make Oldtown our father's funeral pyre, but I am not so greedy. Four lives will suffice for me. Lord Tywin's golden twins, as payment for Elia's children. The old lion, for Elia herself. And last of all the little king, for my father." "The boy has never wronged us."" AFfC, The Captain of Guards.

Something something about letting vengeance and senseless violence consume you, about a woman dead so many years ago and yet still loved by her people and her family, about the attitudes we teach our children and how they might end up twisted without a specific contextualization in time and space...

#asoiaf #a song of ice and fire #elia martell #sand snakes #doran martell #a dance with dragons #adwd #valyrianscrolls #i genuinely don't think the eldest sand snakes would've liked elia personally #which ofc doesn't mean they didn't love her #oh dorne plot i love you

[jackoshadows]

It’s impressive the way GRRM has two characters make different decisions and still end up at the same place in order to highlight how there are no easy solutions to the hard choices these young leaders have to make.

As KITN, Robb Stark decides to put the North and his campaign above personal self interest and refuses to exchange a high-stakes hostage like Jaime Lannister for his sisters. He still ends up getting betrayed by his men and killed.

As LC, Jon Snow selfishly puts his personal interest above the interests of the Watch and decides to attack the Warden of the North to save his sister. He ends up getting betrayed by his men and killed.

As Queen, Daenerys tries to negotiate diplomatically and sue for peace with the powerful masters because their insurgency is killing people. She even goes so far as to marry one of them, Hizdahr, and stay in Meereen to help the people instead of leave for Westeros and Iron Throne. And still, the Slave Masters (and most likely Hizdahr) try to kill her.

As LC, Jon Snow refuses to meet his deputies half-way on their complaints and disagreements, he ruthlessly overrides their objections  and instead depends more and more on the Freefolk to get things done. And still, those deputies end up killing him.

Which is why, as much as us readers can debate on what this or that character should have done and why this character is a terrible leader because they did action A instead of action B or why that character would have survived if they had only done action C, there are always external circumstances beyond the control of these characters and their other actions that push them to that ending.

All these ‘Well he would not have got killed if he had only talked to them more!’ critiques never made sense to me. Even when Daenerys conceded so much ground (There were literal slave markets outside the gates) to the slave masters in order for them to stop their attacks and insurgency, them being utterly terrible people means all that ultimately meant nothing.  Daenerys did talk to the slave masters and they were still trying to kill her.

Even if Jon Snow had charmed his men with tea and crumpets, he would have still ended up breaking NW oaths and neutrality to save Arya, leading to the same conclusion of that being the straw which breaks the camel’s back for his men. Even when Robb refused to exchange Jaime for Sansa, his mother ended up freeing Jaime and his own marriage and breaking of promises doomed his campaign.

As GRRM himself puts it:

And whether it be Ned Stark or Tyrion Lannister or Tywin Lannister or Daenerys Targaryen or Cersei Lannister trying to deal with the real challenges that affect anyone trying to rule the 7K or even a city like Meereen and it’s hard. You know, we can all read the books or read history and say oh, so and so was stupid and made a lot of mistakes and look at all these stupid mistakes they make. But these kind of mistakes are always much more apparent in hind sight than when you are actually faced with the decision about, oh my God, what would I do in this situation. How do I resolve this thing? Do I do the moral thing? But what about  the political consequences of the moral thing? Do I do the pragmatic, cynical thing and kind of screw the people who are screwed by it? I mean, it is HARD. And I want to get to all of that.

Even worse is when people go, well, character A did this wrong and that wrong  and are therefore totally unfit to be a leader, but look character B who has never had to make decisions as a leader that affects thousands of lives would totally be an amazing leader because they haven’t done anything yet. The total lack of logic to make these kind of statements is just simply incomprehensible to me.

#Jon Snow #Daenerys Targaryen #Robb Stark #GRRM #ASoIaF

[poorshadowspaintedqueens]

Didn’t Robert Baratheon invalidate his own claim by pardoning Tywin, Gregor and Lorch after murdering Elia and her children, as well as rewarding the Lannisters for their treachery? How is that different to Aerys’ tyranny?

As is so often the case in these matters...it depends on who you ask.

People can split hairs all they want about inheritance and succession, but it wasn't Robert's Targaryen connections that got him the throne. It was the fact that a coalition of powerful lords agreed that he should be king, and were willing to put themselves and their armies on the line to push his claim. Robert became king by right of conquest as soon as he killed Rhaegar at the Trident. It may not have been as dramatic as the Field of Fire, but the basic premise is the same. See also Henry of Richmond becoming king of England in 1485 after King Richard III was killed in battle.

That being said, although Robert was king de facto, he was still not king de jure. He hadn't been officially crowned and anointed, he did not occupy the capital city of King's Landing, and he was unable to sit on the Iron Throne. All three of those symbolically important elements still applied to Aerys, and Aerys still had two male heirs: Rhaegar's son Aegon, and his own son Viserys.

It is also worth remembering that, for the majority of the Rebellion, the Lannisters did not explicitly declare for one side or the other. Tywin had decamped to Casterly Rock after the tourney at Harrenhal and, so far as we know, did not leave his lands until his army marched along the Gold Road to King's Landing. He must already have left Casterly Rock before the Battle of the Trident, considering how long a march it would have been, so it's not actually clear whose side he intended to join. If Rhaegar had managed to win the battle, I'm certain Tywin would have deferred to him, especially since it's hinted that he intended to depose Aerys. But that isn't what happened.

Instead, Tywin found himself in the unenviable position of having to prove his loyalty to a new regime after having spent two decades propping up the old. He may well have even engineered the sack of King's Landing in part to cover up his plan to kill Rhaegar's children, perhaps intending to make their deaths look like collateral damage. (Though I might be giving him too much credit here.)

Tywin offers Tyrion this explanation for his choice to sack King's Landing in A Storm of Swords:

We had come late to Robert's cause. It was necessary to demonstrate our loyalty. When I laid those bodies before the throne, no man could doubt that we had forsaken House Targaryen forever. And Robert's relief was palpable. As stupid as he was, even he knew Rhaegar's children had to die if his throne was ever to be secure. Yet he saw himself as a hero, and heroes do not kill children [...] I grant you, it was done too brutally. Elia need not have been harmed at all, that was sheer folly. By herself she was nothing.

Tywin isn't wrong, at least not about Robert's image of himself. Robert is willing to have children die on his orders (c.f. Daenerys in AGOT), and Ned's narration confirms that he certainly didn't express any guilt about the deaths of Aegon and Rhaenys ("I see no children, only dragonspawn," etc). We know Ned--and a number of others on the coalition side--pushed for Robert to have Tywin executed, or sent to the Wall for his war crimes. So why didn't he? Even Machiavelli would have advised that he do so.

In Chapter 7 of Il Principe [The Prince], Niccolò Machiavelli offers a striking fanboy anecdote about Cesare Borgia's conquest of the Romagna. He describes the man Cesare appointed to establish order across the province as "a cruel and vigorous man, to whom he gave absolute powers," and relates that "in short order this man pacified and unified the whole district, winning thereby great renown" (21). However, as soon as the job was done,

the duke decided such excessive authority was no longer necessary, and feared it might become odious; so he set up a civil court in the middle of the province, with an excellent judge and a representative from each city. And because he knew that the recent harshness had generated some hatred, in order to clear the minds of the people and gain them over to his cause completely, he determined to make plain that whatever cruelty had occurred had come, not from him, but from the brutal character of the minister. Taking a proper occasion, therefore, he had him placed on the public square of Cesena one morning, in two pieces, with a piece of wood beside him and a bloody knife. The ferocity of this scene left the people at once stunned and satisfied.

Even if he was reluctant to punish the lord of the Westerlands, Robert could easily have had Gregor Clegane and Amory Lorch either executed or sent to the Wall. They were, after all, the ones with literal blood on their hands, even though it was clearly on Tywin's orders. I doubt that would have fully mollified the Martells, but it would have at least been a basic show of good faith. But Robert not only pardoned all of them, he then rewarded Tywin with a marriage alliance and the prospect of his grandchildren on the throne. Machiavelli would not have approved.

Now, Robert insists to Ned that this was Jon Arryn's idea, and we know Jon was also the one who travelled all the way to Sunspear to return the bones of Lewyn Martell. But one has to wonder how different things might have looked if the Lannisters had been made to answer for their crimes.

But the question in the ask was: Does this invalidate Robert's claim? And the answer there is no. It does not. He had already won, for all intents and purposes. Now, while these actions do not invalidate his claim to the throne, they do win him a number of enemies, and they succeed in alienating Robert's staunchest ally and best friend.

#asoiaf #asoiaf meta #robert baratheon #aerys ii targaryen #jon arryn #tywin lannister #robert's rebellion #niccolò machiavelli

[pixiecactus]

i'll make this my pinned post:

so a dany hater followed this blog, sorry dude (in a non binary way) but i think this isn't the blog for you, daenerys targaryen is my absolute second favourite character after arya, i know that most of my posts are focusing in the starks, but that's because after arya and dany, jon and bran are my favourites too, but honestly that's it, the starks are not a monolith and i only like very few of them, i think that ned stark was a negletful father, i don't dislike catelyn but i have a problem with her treatment of jon and her treatment of arya, i honestly don't have an opinion on robb, i'll look foward to have more information on rickon on the books and i tend to dislike book!sansa but most of the time i don't really care about her at all but absolutely hate the show!sansa and fanon!sansa (they are almost one and the same) that stansas are trying to push onto everyone else in this fandom. that's why for my mental health i have most of the popular stansas's accounts blocked

so yeah, about the key five, i love arya, dany, jon and bran and i like tyrion, and about the others characters i'm always changing my mind on jaime, i want to protect brienne, samwell and shireen, if i'm being honest i don't really care about theon, i really like the tyrells (olenna, margaery and loras), i despise tywin lannister, robert and joffrey baratheon, how things came to be between stannis and renly makes me sad, i adore arianne martell, i want to know more about the daynes, i'm heavily invested in the young griff/jon connington plotpoint, cersei and melisandre are really intriguing to me, i want to know more about lyanna and rhaegar's relationship and gendry is best boy for me

i'm mostly a gendrya shipper, i don't have a problem with jonrya, i'm on board with a future jonerys ship, i like braime and renlyxloras (do they have a ship name?)

my posts will be always talking about the asoiaf! characters as i think that the show "game of thrones" is an awful abomination. i'm not a native english speaker or writer so my posts always will be full of grammatical errors

i read the books when i was still a teenage girl back in 2014, last year i spent my time rereading arya's chapters again as an adult man with better understanding about grrm's writing style and definitely i'll read all the books again when i have the time

to end this: i'm a aroace trans man so i'm part of the queer community, if you have a problem with any part of that sentence, please block me and lastly i wish i could follow back the people that follow this blog, but i want to maintain this sideblog with my mainblog completely separate, hope you undestand!

#besides that person's blog was full of dany hate posts from stansas that i blocked a long time ago #so if you are a stansa and for some reason i don't have you blocked yet and you are seeing this please do yourself a favor and block me #a song of ice and fire #asoiaf #house stark #eddard stark #catelyn stark #robb stark #jon snow #sansa stark #arya stark #bran stark #rickon stark #house targaryen #daenerys targaryen #ren rants

[katshuya]

cheating is a thing in Westeros, sono, Rhaegar isn't that bad in the characters' eyes when it's a common thing, and no, he didn't cheat. Elia was Dornish, and it's in their tradition, so she would accept it. And that makes Rhaegar much less guilty in Elia's eyes.

As for the favoring Lyanna over

Elia...well, the truth is Lyanna is the prophecy woman just as Rhaellaonce was. She plays a role in savingWesteros with Jon. She did more likable and attention attracting things like fighting against injustices while Elia only brithed children for the prophcey that ended up not related to the prophecy.

So, it is a normal reaction. Lyanna actually did something.

If Aegon is going to be alive, then he will not be important like Jon nor as honorable or good-hearted. He'll be Daenerys' enemy.

As for the pesants' deaths, they were for the greater good. Cruel but inevitable. But I agree some of them were unnecessary like Rhaegar's children, BUT they had nothing to do with Rhaegar or lyanna. I guess the author is trying to say that the prophecy children should come from only certain people, and Elia, unfortunately for her, stood in the way of the prophecy.

It may seem unfair, but that is the world of the AOIAF.

If Elia should accept her kingdom's tradition about *cheating* as you put it and had absolutely no problem with it (even though Arianne threatened Arys, Lord Yournword fought Oberyn. Oberyn never married, so he doesn't stay committed to someone, Doran married for love and stayed single afterwards.) then Lyanna had no right to complain about Robert's outside of marriage sexual activities and should have carried on with marrying him. Since cheating a tradition in Westeros.

Do you even hear yourself?

The normal reaction for you is that Lyanna escapes Robert and choses a married man but Elia should accept being abandoed for someone else after all she sacrificed?

You are sick. You are so passive-aggressive against a woman who gave everything for that nasty prophecy that you claim to be more important than thousands of deaths. A woman who paid a very high prince for Rhaegar's pitiful desires, Lyanna, to be free from Robert,Aerys madness and Tywin's grudge only to be raped and killed with her children's blood on her.

You are sick for thinking the prophecy justifies anything. Or that Rhaegar and Lyanna were heros.

Elia didn't stand in the way of the prophecy. She is standing in the way of your ugly and nasty ship.

You are trying to act logical and calm when you are just mad.

I'm not sure what else Elia should do to look as cool as perfect saint lyanna the good in your eyes.

Defy Rhaegar and refuse to give him children so she doesn't risk her life?

You would have said it's her fault that Rhaegar left her because she didn't give him what he needed, and Lyanna so perfectly was ready to give them to him.

You are just dying to prove their actions that lead to thousands of deaths as heroic. You have the same mindest as war criminals.

You need help. I'm serious.

#anti rhaegar #anti rhaegar x lyanna #lyanna isn't faultless #elia deserves better #rhaegar targaryen #elia martell #lyanna stark #asoiaf #game of thrones

[katy-89]

Certain people here going crazy when any positive Rhaegar or Daenerys post does numbers and then you’ll go on them same people accounts to see them babygirling characters like Robert Baratheon, Aegon 2 Targaryen, Tywin, Aemond Targaryen, Roose and FREAKING RAMSAY??

Asoiaf fandom is ridiculous 😭

#asoiaf #game of thrones #daenerys targaryen #rhaegar targaryen #aegon ii targaryen #robert baratheon #even book jon snow is not a saint #but no one is complaining #i can't take y'all seriously #meh