#sam Could be normal about s1 dean but could also be like. Man. this (dean I live with) sucks.

[tiktaalic]

#I think this is the reverse where deans really normal but everyone else is abnormal about him #dean would be pal-ing around with s1 Sam like haha Remember When we did this you crazy kid. #and a pre s4 cas is just a cas he rolls his eyes at more. but also makes thinly veiled We Should Fuck statements at more. #sam Could be normal about s1 dean but could also be like. Man. this (dean I live with) sucks. #and he would not enjoy Greetings Bloodfreak the second one. anywhere from annoyed to like. having a real crisis about it #if it was JUST cas and s1 dean. it would be a tragic gay drama from the aughts. #but if it’s not in a vacuum and s15 dean is also there this changes how s1 dean AND s15 cas act. #possibility to wig cas out by virtue of Girl we are in love with a man who is Turbo Closeted he’s gotten WORSE just look at him #and ofc any sort of reaction to s1 dean would make s15 dean bristle and start fights with cas #s15 cas to Sam. that’s literally just some guy to him. got a new roommate ama. cas when s1 Sam shows up #etxt #spnwatch

[pagannatural]

1.08

-bugs 🪲

-Dean is scamming people for money to support them and Sam wants to do honest work but really it’s about him wanting to be normal and not live the way their dad raised them. Dean starting scamming when he was what, 10? There’s something so delicious and seedy about Dean scamming money for the both of them and just letting Sam be a princess about it.

-“Don’t drop me” Sam says to Dean. I think Baby said that to Swayze in Dirty Dancing.

-Sam GRINS the first time they’re mistaken for a couple, like a blushing can’t-help-himself grin

The second time, Sam looks shamefaced and when Dean smacks his butt he looks caught

I do think Sam knows he’s too into Dean and is trying to stifle his feelings. Dean is much better at writing off his feelings but he’s also impulsive and obsessed with Sam so of course he takes the opportunity to smack his ass.

-this is the episode where Sam and Dean discuss their dad and how they were raised. Sam got yelled at for wanting to do normal things, while he thought John saw Dean as perfect. Dean doesn’t correct him on this or complain about John even though being perfect most definitely was not his experience.

Dean tells Sam “Dad was never disappointed in you. Never” and says John used to check up on him at college to make sure he was safe. Dean assures Sam “he was scared. He was afraid of what could’ve happened to you if he wasn’t around.”

Dean is talking about himself and John at the same time throughout this conversation. He over-identifies with his dad because he was raised to be his dad’s partner and double. He sees Sam’s criticism of John as criticism of him too. This kind of codependence shows up as little to no recognition that your feelings and the other’s feelings might be different. John, too, often sees Dean as an extension of himself. Because their codependence is so ingrained, the way his relationship with John changes throughout the seasons directly affects his relationship with Sam. Through s1, following dad equals keeping Sam safe.

It’s not like that for Sam. He can see their lives more clearly because he wasn’t parentified, because he had Dean to take care of him. He’s frustrated with Dean for always following John but Dean following John is kind of the reason Sam doesn’t have to.

-Sam was clearly feeling troubled and Dean could see that. Sam is driving the impala in the next scene. Did Dean offer to let him drive to make him feel better?

-There’s no earthly reason for them to stand this close together to look for a man at a cafe.

-Now that Sam has been reassured that their dad loves him and he feels better, Dean is driving again.

-I don’t think they realize that this much proximity is unusual for brothers

-episode focused on Sam reckoning with his resentment toward John.

-Also interesting how often the theme of Dean being a liar recurred. He is so comfortable with lying that it’s a part of him. It’s not clear what he is lying about in the episode that isn’t explicitly stated other than about being completely fine with the way he was raised.

#spn #samdean #spn 1x08 #wincest #spn meta #the cashier at Trader Joe’s today told me that she too was obsessed with spn #so obsessed that you wrote analyses for every episode? it’s more likely than you think

[underthebednotebook]

Supernatural could have made this show way scarier if it followed along with the themes of incest and eventual boyking!Sam.

I don't know if it is the V.C Andrews Flowers in the Attic fan speaking in me, as well as general horror enjoyer, but having it loom would have been so nice to see in what was supposedly a horror show.

Supernatural S1-4 had some horrific moments, some truly horrific monsters and horrific scenarios that I wish I could put into my writing, before it fell a bit short with overplot and the sudden increase in saturation and brightness as well as moving away from the Americana that I'm used to seeing in every single highway stop I make on a long trip up and down the East Coast.

But as I am putting some thought into it, and trying to find my dumbass exit, I think about having just the presence of this thing that Sam and Dean share. They don't speak about it, don't look at it in the eye, but it is there. It already had a name in their heads but it was birthed in their childhood, given form during their hunting trips and now it looms between them like a barrier made out of matchsticks they half hazardly put together.

And Dean knows it is wrong so he won't do it. This man is straightforward in his thinking because if he thought about anything more that would mean death in his line of work. It's wrong so he won't do it, the thoughts can haunt him but that is his own personal hell for allowing this responsibility, this overprotective beast to gnaw at the back of his neck ever since he crawled into Sam's cot.

Yet I think about Sam and how easily seduced he would have been into the role he was born for. His concept of normality revolves around pillars. A job, a house, a girlfriend and loved one. With Jess gone (RIP best girl), whatever he had tried to build is now falling apart. How lucky for him that Dean fits that role of loved one so nicely.

And loved one he is, Sam loved Dean, Sam loves Dean maybe a bit too much to be normal so he separated himself from it.

But now they are back, together again, two brothers sitting in a car and he is staring at Dean and he doesn't know how to tell him that he loves him except with his presence in that passenger seat because if he lets one word spill out then others will follow like the most pleasing bile someone could ever feel.

With these feelings looming over them, feelings that are not allowed between siblings but are essential for the love language of the Winchesters, Yellow-Eyes seduction of Sam would have been so easy. Sam is struggling with these presence? Well then why not finally let it in.

It has a name, it has a body, now all he has to do is open his body and let it in.

And also I think it would have been cool for Sam to reach a point of just acceptance that he is an abomination, but an abomination that has been loved by this one person no matter what and to just cup Dean's face, press a kiss to his forehead and let him know he is doing this for him to get him out of hell but at this point Kripke would have been locked up if they let him get away with that in national television.

#spn #weirdcest #i made a drink for myself #its v-8 and vodka in a smoothie #cause after a 5 hour drive I really need it #but look what it made me do i spilled weirdcest all over my keyboard #boyking!sam #wincest

[angelsdean]

Have you any thought about how Stanford/S1 Sam is a mirror of both Mary and John? He's a mirror of John because of his killed love and his quest of revenge... but the way he lived with Jess was just... Mary-coded (pretending the supernatural world doesn't exist, being someone he wasn't, etc)

oh yea definitely. i think they both obvs have qualities from both parents. the john parallels w/ early season sam are just louder but yea he's definitely got some mary qualities. also, idk if you've watched the winchesters, but in that mary also wants to leave hunting and go to college and secretly enrolls and gets in, so, another very sam-coded moment. i think dean also wanted to get out of hunting in similar ways, but because he was raised to be john's number 2 right hand man blunt little instrument he gave up on those dream (9x07 bad boys dean wanted to be a rockstar-slash-mechanic !!) and made peace with being a hunter and being stuck in that life. but we see him long for a family, for a quiet peaceful life too. but where mary and sam wanted a "normal" life to hide and pretend the supernatural world doesn't exist i think dean wanted that as like both a desire to get back what he lost as a child and also as like, a retirement sort of thing. or even as something to have alongside hunting in the later seasons. like i could see him settling down with cas but still working cases on occasion or helping out in a bobby-like role. anyways, sorry for the dean-tangent. just deangirl things lmao. but anyways yes !! sam 🤝 mary wanting to get out of hunting and have a "normal" life while hiding everything abt their family and upbringing from their partner. wait, sorry i'm having thoughts. ok but then that tying back to what i was just saying abt dean, how he wants a family and a partner and the stability of that kind of life except he wants it alongside everything else, he doesn't want to hide the hunting part, which we literally see with cassie !! because unlike sam, dean tells her about hunting because he wants to stay with her and build something real. so dean's like, "yea *handshakes* sam and mary, i want a stable family life but uhhhh not with you there with the hiding from the hunting world and keeping secrets coz that's never gonna work." (he even does this later with lisa too, she knows everything and dean's generally pretty upfront w/ her abt what's going on)

anyways, thanks for the message, sorry for my tangents<3

#replies #sam studies #dean studies

[thebiggestmenace]

I am confused?

here's why lmao

do indeed remember this season

the baby's name is Amara?? or is the guy just that out of it?

omg Sam is infected!!!! big shocker!!!! (menace knew this)

and the baby has the Mark of Cain???

hi, Billie!!!!

first mention of the Empty... I have a feeling this comes back around in s15

the holy oil worked???

Dean wrapping Cas in the blanket :(((

is this episode just from Baby's perspective? I love episodes with weird perspectives!!

"say it with me - a ✨️werepire✨️"

Finn Wolfhard?!

why do they keep flashing back to Sam's time in Hell??

I forgot Amara was God's sister

I also completely forgot about Sully wtf

Sam, please do not say yes. please

where did she send Dean?? oh, just to safety nvm

you had to have known this was a terrible idea, Sam

you're ready to watch the people you love die? really?

of course they're all in there now

so, if Lucifer is possessing Cas, then where is Cas? or are there just two angels in him?

Eileen!! I know the actress and I've seen people post about her, but I don't remember her?

did Mildred just insinuate that Dean has a crush on Cas?? cause I feel like she did... nvm I forgot about Amara smh

dude, the boys don't even sound the same in earlier seasons :o I hadn't noticed until now

Lucifer is not caged, actually

you have Crowley in a dog cage?? and are treating like a literal dog??

also if Cas isn't Lucifer's perfect vessel, why isn't it showing? like it showed for Nick?

Dean being absolutely devastated that Cas said yes to Lucifer vs Sam just rolling with that punch

they are such children 🤭

Bobby and Rufus were definitely a thing btw

I've said if before and I'll say it again, I miss Bobby

and Sam's been shot, how fun

but he's not actually dead?

a married hunter couple!!!

omg is this the episode we find out Chuck is God??? *

* it is!!! I always thought this happened in an earlier season

and Chuck has the samulet?? I could have sworn Sam had it?

KNEW HE HAD IT (did Chuck throw that in his pocket? maybe. but I will die on this hill. Sam kept it)

KEVIN??? oh nvm he's gone now

Amara is so,,,,,,, unsettling

omg family therapy with God and Lucifer!

of course Sam's gonna take the Mark without talking to Dean 🙄

is this actually gonna work?

did she just kill Lucifer and God??

guess not, okie

Cas is back!!!

all the goodbyes are normal and then he gets to Cas and is almost in tears???

so, it's fine? everything's normal now?

????? Sam just got shot at again???

gonna be honest, I thought Toni was Mary

another season down, hooray!!! this one was so??? I want to say anticlimactic, which was nice considering the other season finales! it's just odd? also wtf happened with Sam? did he get shot? cause it didn't sound it, so what happened? is there just a forcefield around the man? I guess we shall find out

s1, s2, s3, s4, s5, s6, s7, s8, s9, s10, s11, s12, s13, s14, s15

#also want to add that little menace dressed up as infected sam for halloween one year #my dad painted the dark lines on my face #i just want to know why i chose That sam instead of any of the other “versions” of him out there?? #yk it might be because that was the only “version” where it'd be obvious it was from a show #also want to ask why mary? #i know its what dean wanted most or whatever #but what about jo or ellen or bobby or charlie or even kevin? #what about all the other people they’ve lost? #i guess you cant come between mother and son but still #why mary #rambling menace #menace watches supernatural #supernatural #spn #destiel #also we finished the puzzle!!! #it only took 4 whole seasons! #but we finished it!!!

[mlobsters]

supernatural s9e15 #thinman (w. jenny klein)

don't really think about it until they show a bit of s1/2 in the recap and man, dean's voice got so much lower

SAM On a hunt? Why wouldn't I? DEAN I don't know, man. 'Cause lately with you, up is down and down is sideways, you know? I-I -- I don't know what you want.

does sam even know?

worked for will graham!

i'm trying not to cringe up into a ball knowing it's a ghostfacers episode... maybe it'll be fine.

HARRY Ah, the Winchesters. Yay. ED Says nobody. HARRY Ever.

it's funny because it's true

DEAN Am I supposed to be impressed with that treasure trail or the lady gun you got hiding in your, uh, pants there?

this show, sometimes

HARRY 50 shades of whey too much protein!

look at that, we got a tld! ghostfacers.com! but not in the search results window

two laptops and a full sized, albeit also vintage, stove. they sure find the interesting motels

why is sam looking so extra pretty today. hair must be in a pleasing (to me) configuration

kind of surprised they aren't talking about tulpas if it's the slenderman spn-universe equivalent. oh man. this episode aired 2 months before the girls stabbed their friend because of slender man.

and dean just smacked treasure trail boy on the ass, all right. we're having a normal one

DEAN You throw the right Tibetan symbol into the mix, you dumb asses ever think the Thinman comes to life as a Tulpa? ED Because thousands of people can agree that Thinman is any one thing? The lore changes blog to blog. He's not a Tulpa.

LOL thanks show, make me feel clever

SAM Okay. Just grasping at straws here, but when I think "teleport," I think "Crossroads Demon." DEAN Mm. Demon that likes to stab and watch YouTube. Why not?

DEAN You know what video would have gone viral, if we still had it? When you were five and you got dressed up as Batman and you jumped off the shed 'cause you thought you could fly. SAM After you jumped first. DEAN Hey, I was nine, and I was dressed up like superman, okay? Everybody knows that Batman can't fly. SAM Well, I didn't know that. I broke my arm.

DEAN I know you did. Man, I drove you to the E.R. on my handlebars.

okay i teared up because that was just so sweet, both relaxed and happy for at least a second. haha such a sap

DEAN Hm, good times. SAM Yeah, they were.

second over, emphasis on WERE

ED Harry was gonna leave, so I needed to give him a reason to stay. I-I made up Thinman.

what

SAM Listen, if you don't tell him, he's gonna leave anyway. Trust me here. Secrets ruin relationships.

laughed out loud. they would know!

look at that pretty face staring down the dude to get him to tell the truth

HARRY You crashed the Jenga Tower of our lives. I was gonna get married. I left her to run around with you, living some lie. ED Well, at least we were living it together.

this is so goofy. even more in your face than usual, parelleling a plot point to sam and dean's situation

ED Harry, we can get through this. We just debunk Thinman and then we go back to Ghostfacers. HARRY I can't. I can't trust you anymore, Ed.

so goofy!

HARRY None of it was real, Sam. Ed was just pretending, and now he wants me to pretend, like this is just something I could get past. SAM I know what you mean. Look, there are things you can forgive, and there are things you can't. HARRY So, which one is this? SAM That's something you got to figure out for yourself.

therapize himself a little along the way

DEAN So, the tires were only made for one kind of car. It's a 1989 Geo Metro.

man those little hatchbacks used to be all over the place, nearly all of them must be dead by now. specially the mid90s ish ones which were ... not very reliable

DEAN So, there was no teleporting -- just a couple of douche bags doing the "Scream" thing.

what did i say about looking extra pretty? and he usually is more buttoned up than this. very pretty lighting too

ED I've done all this crap for us. I-I don't know why you don't see that. HARRY No. No. You did this for you.

literally wheezing. not enough to take the same betrayal of trust plotline but even the same lines!!? LOL

from s9e13 SAM Okay. Just once, be honest with me. You didn't save me for me. You did it for you.

--

HARRY You roll with a guy so many years, you start to think he's always gonna be next to you. Like, when you're old and you're drinking on the porch, he'll be in that other rocking chair. And then something happens, and you realize that other chair has gone empty.

snorted. so like, okay. do you hear yourself say it, harry? very normal thing, just like planning on being with your friend forever. not wanting him to be with his lady and a regular job, but on the road with just you. i mean like, obviously, same can be said about sam and dean and that's probably part of the point but it's so loudly obvious that it's like *looking around* are you seeing this? are they saying this. i guess we can say like see, this is normal, just dudes being close bros. weird

WEIRD CHOICES. what a strange episode. good for those actors i guess getting to come back again and have a meatier parts in the episode

okay also tucking this episode in my pocket because i recall there's a thing with the retirement whatever brochure some time in the future, but also that makes me sad again that dean didn't make it to retirement age. womp womp

#supernatural #spnwatch #spn 9x15 #spn 9x13 #jenny klein

[shittinggold]

Dashboard osmosis late seasons supernatural?

Oh man - so I stopped watching early in S9, and my memory of anything after S5 is pretty hazy (I have rewatched S1-5 once, the latter seasons not at all), so this is a combination of dashboard osmosis, fractured memories of things I may or may not have seen, and whatever November 5th did to my brain.

So, at the end of S8 all the angels fall out of heaven, right? Because Metatron did a Thing. I've no idea what happened with Metatron after that but I'm gonna assume the brothers killed him, because that's generally how they deal with things, even deity-level-powered villains. I don't know if the angels went back after that - I know there was a civil war which might have been before this? Also at some point all the angels die I think, which leaves Castiel as the last angel. Castiel gets depowered at some point. And some other point becomes God. And dies. And I think becomes evil? It feels like they did everything they possibly could with Cas other than let him be a main character.

I think at this point Cain and Abel (maybe?) show up and Dean gets the Mark of Cain on him which makes him evil. Because of this (or perhaps entirely unrelated) he becomes a demon and we get Demon Dean for a bit which honestly sounds quite cool. Presumably is cured in some manner that sets up the arc of the next season.

The brothers find out that they're the heirs to some secret society called the Men of Letters and get a cool new bunker which means they don't have to shoot on different sets each week which makes the show cheaper and totally ruins its original aesthetic.

Kevin and Felicia Day both get killed off because of course they do. But I think Felicia Day (Charlie?) comes back because she's in the last episode. She also at some points goes to Oz and dates Dorothy. Honestly as far as SPN women go it seems like she does pretty well.

Crowley becomes King of Hell at some point. He also stays alive for ages even though he was never half as interesting as the fandom always thought he was.

Lucifer comes back! And presumably then so does Adam? I assume this means they address the whole "we left our other brother in a hell cage and never mentioned it again" weirdness, but I think it's funnier if I don't. Lucifer hangs out with Sam and maybe posseses Cas? (I've heard the word "Casifer" and assume this is what it means).

The Impala becomes a human in one episode, which is apparently actually a good episode. There's also an episode where Dean is a dog and another one where they're in Scooby-Doo. Honestly I would like to watch these.

There's a new kid called Jack that seems to be like a fourth main character and is Cas' son? Unclear whether this is in any way literal or just that they have a parental relationship. He seems to be around a lot but also is kind of dunked on by the narrative and not given enough attention? I dunno, he's new to me so I don't trust him but I assume there's a reason why people (including you I think!) care about him.

And then uhhhh there's cold static for like three seasons and Cas makes a deal with the Empty (which is like angel afterlife/superhell but is also a person that you can make deals with?) in order to save Jack's life, which means if he gets Perfect Happiness he will go to superhell. His perfect happiness is confessing love to Dean and getting ambiguously no-homoed in return. Later is re-homoed in spanish.

Oh, wait, Chuck is back and is explicitly God! And is evil about it because he has a story and wants Dean and Sam to follow his story but they don't? I'm sure this is either a genius metanarrative or a self-cannibalising mess, no in-between. They kill ChuckGod and save the world/themselves/free will.

Then they go to a pie-eating contest and Dean eats too many pies and then gets killed by a vampire who sticks him with a rusty nail. Sam is sad but goes to have a Normal Life with some woman who doesn't even get a face, let alone a name, and dies 50 years later from terrible prosthetics disease. Dean goes to heaven and his car is there because in the supernatural universe, cars go to heaven but gays don't.

...Until Dean then takes the car and goes back in time with it to makes sure his parents hook up or something? Idk what's happening in the prequel, but it sounds nuts.

And Mischa Collins comes out as straight. Love wins.

#supernatural

[norahastuff]

penny for your thoughts on salmondean codependency ?

Sure. Fair warning it’s long (was longer but I stopped myself.)

I think it’s complicated in a show that’s had so many different showrunners because they’ve all handled Sam and Dean’s relationship very differently. In Kripke’s era (s1-5) there was a romanticization of the bond. Sure there was a lot of in-depth exploration of how they wound up at the place they were at, spoiler alert: it was all because of John and his obsessive crusade to find the demon that killed his wife. That’s all he cared about and as a result, Sam and Dean had to be everything to each other. But Kripke had no intention of dismantling that at any point because he was (and always had been) writing a tragedy. Gamble continued that too. There was no room for anyone else in their lives and it would always just be the two of them against the world. So Cas had to go. Bobby had to go.

(Actually, it's funny because Gamble didn't intend this at the time, her plan was to kill Cas off, but by Edlund creating the masterpiece that is The Man Who Would Be King, he not only saved Cas from being seen as a villain, but he also deepened Dean and Cas' relationship in such a profound way and inextricably linked the two of them emotionally. And since Cas was eventually brought back, that laid the foundation for a lot of what their relationship would become.)

Up until this point, there hadn’t really been any significant dismantling of perhaps the more unhealthy parts of Sam and Dean’s relationship. Enter Carver. He stripped things down and started to explore what drove these characters. What they wanted and why they couldn’t have it. It starts with Dean being mad at Sam for not looking for him in purgatory, which sets up the whole speech in the s8 finale of Sam’s guilt about letting Dean down, but the thing is, Dean was never honest with Sam about his year away either. He never told Sam he could have gotten out much sooner if he hadn’t stayed to find Cas. I mean Dean had assumed Sam was up there alone doing God knows what to try to bring him back, and yet still he stayed in Purgatory because things were clear there. He needed Cas. Anyway, I just find that interesting, but Cas isn’t a victim of Sam and Dean’s relationship in s8.

Who gets the honour of being cast aside? That would be Benny and Amelia, two characters they introduced in s8 specifically to highlight that Sam and Dean’s relationship doesn’t allow for anyone else to be a significant part of their life. I mean that’s nothing new, we’ve watched that happen many times before. Lisa even said as much to Dean. The thing is this time? It’s framed as a truly sad thing. That moment at the end of 8x10 when Dean has just ended things with Benny and Sam leaves Amelia, and they’re sitting alone drinking beer and watching tv is such a hollow empty moment. This is not what they want. But it’s the way things have to be.

I’m actually fascinated by Sam and Dean’s conversation in the church in the s8 finale. Not so much Dean’s assertion that there is no one else he would put before Sam, but more so what provokes it, which is Sam saying “who are you going to turn to instead of me. Another angel? Another vampire?” See the thing is Dean saying he would always put Sam first is not news. We know this and it’s not really an unhealthy statement in itself either. A lot of people would put their sibling above anything else, not less a sibling who you raised and is the most important person to you. But in this context? After what Sam said? It just highlights how unhealthy they are if Sam believes that Dean having other people in his life means he doesn’t love him enough. That he’s a disappointment to him. That’s so profoundly fucked up.

(Note, Dean tells Sam that he killed Benny for him but he doesn’t say anything about Cas. I think like I said before, this is because Cas and Dean’s relationship has largely existed out of the Sam and Dean stuff up to this point - Sam and Cas don’t even really have much of a relationship yet besides both of their connections to Dean.)

And then from here, things start getting steadily worse. But we also keep being shown how bad they are. Dean lying to Sam, taking away his free will by letting Gadreel possess him. Dean sending Cas away, Kevin dying. It’s all awful. The whole “there ain’t no me if there ain’t no you line” from 9x01 isn’t really said by Dean, it’s Gadreel, but that is how Dean feels. He does think that’s all he’s good for. And over the season we’re shown how much of himself and what he truly wants he’s had to give up because of his ingrained “Save Sammy” and “Sammy comes first” mentality. It’s always been this way for him. In 9x07 we see that he had found a happy home, a good father figure, and his first love, a first love might I add that he had to leave behind with no real explanation because Sam needed him, and Sam comes first.

I mean just one episode earlier we had him rushing out the door elated about seeing Cas and spending time with him, only for their time together to come to sad and melancholic end when Dean once again leaves Cas behind without any real explanation, because despite what he wants Sammy comes first. What he wants doesn’t matter.

See I think after the Gadreel stuff comes out is where the narrative starts to get a little wonky for me. You can clearly see that this was intended to be a shorter story that they ended up stretching out to a much longer one because of renewals. There’s also the fact that this is a formula show so they can’t necessarily be separated for longer than an episode or two. S10 is a rough one to get through at times, I think the themes still mostly hold up but it’s a rough one to get through.

S10 highlights all the connections that Dean has, Cas, Charlie, Crowley even, but Sam doesn’t really have those bonds in the same way.  For Sam it’s just Dean, so he goes down a reckless destructive “do anything to save Dean!” path and so many innocents pay the price, and ultimately with the release of The Darkness, the whole world.

They skirted right up to the edge of exploring just how toxic and dangerous their relationship had become in the season 10 finale.

DEAN: I let Rudy die. How was that not evil? I know what I am, Sam. But who were you when you drove that man to sell his soul... Or when you bullied Charlie into getting herself killed? And to what end? A..a good end? A just end? To remove the Mark no matter what the consequences? Sam, how is that not evil? I have this thing on my arm, and you're willing to let the Darkness into the world.

I can’t say evil is the right word, they were never evil, but they were wilfully blind to everything and everyone else when it came to saving each other. S10 tested my love for the show because after watching it, because there was certainly a feeling that the two of them had become the villains of this story. And don’t get me wrong, I didn’t have a problem with that, it’s just after 2 seasons of this I can’t say I had a lot of faith that this was going to be properly addressed or if we were going to keep going in circles around it. Keep being shown, it’s bad and then nothing much being done to fix it. Your mileage may vary on how it was handled, but I think s11 did a relatively ok job considering it wasn’t the end of the story, and the show needed to keep going.

See from Dean’s side a lot of the codependency rests on 1. His father’s orders to always save Sammy 2. His low self-esteem where he sees himself as nothing but a blunt instrument. 3. His guilt at not being able to perfectly fulfil every familial role in Sam’s life 4. His belief that no one could choose to love him but family has to love you. 5. The unhealthy example of what it should look like to love someone that he got from John. You give up everything but them.

For Sam (and honestly it’s not as clear for me as Dean’s side is so feel free to correct me/disagree on this) 1. Everytime he’s tried to leave and create his own life it’s never ended well. 2. His guilt over wanting freedom and a normal life when he was younger (I’m referring specifically to Stanford era here) 3. His guilt over everything Dean has given up for him. 4. John. 5. Jess.

Ultimately it all comes down to isolation. They both had to be everything to each other, and the deeper they got into this fight, the more people that they lost, the tighter they clung to this notion of family and brothers. I think s11 (and 11x23 in particular) was an important turning point, both for Sam and Dean’s relationship, as well as for them as individuals. Because they weren’t alone there anymore. Cas was there. Sam let Dean walk to his death. Of course, it would devastate him, but he knew it was what had to be done. And he didn’t walk out of that bar and go back to the bunker alone. He had Cas, he had someone who cared about him and wanted to help him and talk to him. Sure Dean asked Cas to take care of Sam for him (you know after Cas offered to walk to his death with him) but Sam let him. He let him be there for him. We didn’t get to see much before the BMOL showed up and blasted Cas away, but still, we saw enough.

I think that’s a significant difference to note why their relationship was different in the Dabb era. It wasn’t just them anymore. Cas was an important member of their family and given a level of importance he’d never been given before and couldn’t have been when the story they were telling was of the dangers of their codependency. Mary was back. Eventually, Jack would become a part of their unit too. Just the two of them wasn’t enough for them anymore. This is made abundantly clear with all of Dean’s desperate attempts to get Cas to stay in s12, followed by his inability to keep going when they lose Cas and Mary in s13. Similarly, Sam really struggles when they lose Jack and fail to get Mary back later in the season.

Another big moment is Dean letting Sam go alone to lead the hunters against the BMOL in 12x22 while he stays back to try and reach Mary. Like he tells Mary, he’s had to be a brother, a father and a mother to Sam and he never stopped seeing him as his kid, but in that moment he makes a choice. He lets Sam take charge and he shows that he trusts him and believes in him. He knows he can handle it.

Sometimes it’s not even a character growth thing. Sometimes having other people there stops you from making destructive choices even though that’s still your first instinct. I’m thinking specifically of 13x21 after Sam was killed. Dean would have run headlong into that nest of vampires and got himself torn apart, but Cas was there to stop him. He was able to make him see reason.

Basically, I think that for a long time, they thought the only relationship they could have was each other, which then became a self-fulfilling prophecy because their desperate attempts to keep each other around led to them losing the people around them. They eventually started to learn that that wasn’t true, they could have more, they were allowed to want more, and that it wasn’t an either-or situation. Dean didn’t have to choose between Sam and Cas. They didn’t have to choose between each other or Jack. The same goes for Mary. Different relationships can coexist without threatening each other, and not say that their relationship in s12-15 was all smooth sailing, but it was certainly so very different from everything that came before.

(There’s maybe a point to be made about how they didn’t have anyone or anything in the finale and how that relates to the story we got, but honestly I have no idea what the intention was with any of the choices made in that episode so I’ll leave it at that for now.)

#asks #winchester brothers #my spn thoughts #long post for ts #Anonymous #spn meta

[byronictrash]

so I was thinking about the whole hbo supernatural thing and all I could think was how it would fit in my major spn interpretation which is TRANSFEM SAM WINCHESTER!!!!

• changed her name to samantha for pure praticity

• is a lesbian, so all the romantic part is pretty similar to the canon, monsterfucking and all

• in which dean got a little confused about the distinction of gender ≠ sexuality at first like “wait but why did you become a girl if you like girls?” (he doesn’t know a lot of queer people, give him some time)

• AND SPEAKING OF DEAN! the biggest ally of all times. at first he doesn’t understand lots of stuff that seems obvious to sam (“why are you putting on a suit?” “dean we’re going to a small town, the case will be way harder if everyone is staring at me”), asks indiscrety questions (“can i ask you something?” “it depends” “you wanna chop your dick off?” “NO YOU CANT ASK IT”) but over time he starts to get it more naturally

• despite his numerous hook-ups, dean has never spent so much time in his life in a company of a woman so even the smallest things are extraterrestrial to him (“hey whats that bowl in the microwave?” “depilatory wax” “OH CMON SAMMY I WAS GOING TO HEAT UP MY DINNER THERE”)

• of course, there would be a scene where they met some hunter friend of john who says shit about sam, misgender her etc and dean goes FERAL, fist fighting with the guy and stuff. later sam yells at dean, saying she doesn't need dean to protect her and the argument would escalate to all the times that dean treated her in a condescending way, dean yelling back that dad said it was his job to take care of her and sam yelling even louder that dad would probably dead by now (in this moment all the lamps in their room (and in the street) simply explode, but they ignore. it was probably some short circuit…. right?)

• ok lets talk about john. still the same asshole, still gave a gun to kid who was afraid of the boogeyman, still tried to summon azazel when his son was in comma in 02X01 BUT now he also has a whole series of microaggressions with sam. she’s not stupid, she know the dad she has so doesn’t come out until she’s in stanford, SO john finds out sam is trans in 01X16 when john see sam after two years wearing a skirt and holding a .45 gun. he looks at her up and down and doesn’t say anything however, suddenly stops calling sam sam and starts calling her strictly samuel.

• it got worse after s1 season finale with the whole azazel possessed john > sam had the opportunity of killing azazel/her dad > couldn’t do it > azazel escaped > the winchesters get hit by a truck. when sam questions her father about being worried about the colt while his own son is dying, john explodes with her “you know samuel this is all your fault, once again you couldn’t just man up and pull the fucking trigger, kill the thing, you had to be same old sissy and chicken off, if your brother dies its his blood in your hands”

• aaaaaanyway, lets go back to our girl :D

• her style is kinda a mess. makeup done in a hurry, most of her clothes are mid skirts, hoodies and long dresses but now and then she spends a week wearing baggy jeans and band t-shirts, like dean’s, and no makeup at all. when he asks her “where is the whole angry teen outfit?” sam would simply respond its “because of the praticity, it’s tough to fight with a vampire in a dress lol” dean knows its because sometimes sam’s internalized transphobia ft repression gets loud

• her music taste is mostly grunge, punk and some alt bands she discover in stanford but dean call all of it emo “oh fuck off sammy, i let you drive once and you already put this emo shit” “dean this is literally nirvana, you cant call everything made after the 80’s emo”

• when she came out to bobby his reaction was literally “so now you’re a girl?” “uh… yeah” “gonna change your name or something?” “now is samantha but sam is still fine” “okay, now look this sigil... (and went back to the lore they were searching)”

• sam’s catholicism being more portrained on screen and how the dilemma of being a Christian and queer filled sam with religious guilty

• her paranormal powers also showed up sooner and since the beginning she knew something was wrong. her throat felt sore every time she recited the rituale romanus and holy water made her skin itchy. the older she got, the harder those “symptoms” became and with her denial, desire to be normal combined with religious guilt, it was easier to just convince herself that all this was just god punishing her for living in sin.

• surprisingly, all the demons and angels (and most of the monsters) even being assholes treats sam with the right pronouns

• which make sam and cas fist encounter even more interesting because cas literally turns to dean and go “is this your sister, samantha winchester?” “yeah” “ABOMINATION”’

• samruby second (cause the real first was ruby killing the seven deadly sins and stuff) encounter on the other side was a little more like "why are you following me?” “because youre tall and tall women are sexy as fuck” (then sam’s brain was short circuited for a sec because her height make usually makes her dysphoric)

• between s3-s4, dean still in hell, there would be a scene of one of the first times that sam drank blood to exorcise a demon with her mind. so here they are, demon tied in a chair and trapped in a trap, sam with blood all over her chin and ruby looking at her all heart eyes. Sam tries to do the exorcism but it doesnt work so ruby says sam needs more blood. Sam responds that shes nauseous and if takes any more shes gonna puke (cause you know voluntary vampirism came too natural in canon and that disturbs me) so the demon, who's wearing a cheerleader as a vessel, laughs and says "you know sammy, for real women blood tends to be a natural thing". ruby kills her on the spot.

• speaking of the catholicism (and the blood drinking) again, sam prays every single time before/after drinking demon blood, ruby mocks her for it but she doesnt care. its a weird feeling because even thinking that what shes doing is right, that she needs to get strong to kill lilith, it still feels bad, unholy in some sense.

• of course lucifer tempted her in s5 not only appearing as jess but also saying things like "why samantha, after all, are you willing to sacrifice yourself for a society that treats you like scum, that looks at you like a freak?"

• no need to say that in 05x04 "The End" episode when dean faces lucifer using sam as his vessel, she's wearing an outfit way cooler than that abbey-road-john-lennon-white-suit (to know what i mean search amanda seyfried 2018 met gala look THATS WHAT IM TALKING ABOUT!!!!!)

• even after being clean of blood drinking, sam still has some of her paranormal powers. she can't do exorcises with her mind anymore but she can move small objects with telekinesis (she doesn't do it in front of dean cause she knows it would scares the fuck out of him)

i also had a list of some episodes rewritten in this au but this list is already long, guess i'll post later

#daaaaaaamn i have so many feelings about this #hbo supernatural #trans sam winchester #supernatural #samruby #transfem sam #lesbian sam winchester #kripke era #yeah im projecting #headcanon #mine

[godtrials]

hey, i love your tight knit boys playlist. It fits so well sometimes but i was wondering how ou connect some of the songs (like a pound of flesh or bad blood) to sam and dean??

guys, i promise i didn't send myself this ask. someone honest to god prompted me to talk about radical face & supernatural.

say what you will about radical face but who else is writing songs entirely about codependent brothers and dysfunctional parents. exactly. i’ve connected them to sam & dean in specific ways, but i’m 1000% certain someone else could do it totally different.

so here goes! the playlist is roughly linear, although some are flexible. it goes in this order:

Doorways - sam before christmas 1991. It's "when i was just a boy, still owl-eyed, / i tried to count the stars while in my bed / to keep the thoughts of monsters from my head," it's "i believed in all your stories / i believed you'd never lie" (to john? to dean?). he's small and innocent and optimistic about the world.

Summer Skeletons - they're boys! they're kids! "when our heads were still simple / we'd sleep beneath the moon. / you were something / that would always be around" !!!!!!!! "and all the stars fell into the lake / when the water was warm / walked in over my head / but you pulled me out by the collar of my shirt" he can still save his kid brother, okay!

Mountains - i made a post here <3 their father is a mountain of a man and there is someone else out there who watches sam all the time! what else is there to say!!!

Sisters - i made a post here, but also, let's just look at the lines: "your hand rode the wind out the window of the train / we slept in our seats with our knees curled beneath our dirty chins / dad gripped the bags like they might fly away".

A Little Hell - he's ten years old he's got a bloody nose he's watching his big brother. i mean.

Ghost Towns - Dean, Stanford era. he's nameless and travelling and "i still dream of you / but everyone knows / yeah everyone knows if you can, let it go"

The Deserter's Song - Sam, Stanford era. "i knew in my heart that my old life was gone / that in walking away, my name was undone."

Always Gold - it's the sam&dean song, so i placed it at the pilot.

The Crooked Kind - s1/s2. they’re fucked up kids! sam wants to be part of a normal family but he’s as fucked up as they are! he can hear the voices of the dead and the dark! he feels himself growing up & growing evil! also: “and I sit beside my brother and i feel him shake / as he laughs himself right back to sleep / and i’m laughin' with him // but i smell their blood” okay s2 sam we hear you.

Names - they’re on the road. they’re lost and homeless. what else do you need.

Wandering - i always think of this one as dean leaving lisa, but it could also be sam’s realization that he’s not leaving hunting (which i think really dawns on him early s3).

A Pound of Flesh - this one could be s5 or s7, i think. it’s a very desperate things-are-kinda-fucked-but-here-we-go! song. in s5 sam held down by his guilt, s7 by his hallucinations and constant fear. i especially think these lines read like them: “you told me then, hold me down, hold me up to the fire / but don’t you dare hold me back”.

Guilt - s8 finale. don’t know what more to say.

Black Eyes - okay i’m going to be real i first put this here because dean & literally having black eyes in s10 lmao, but in retrospect, i think it’s sam’s mix of desperate mourning for dean and desire for ruby and cold cold fury for lilith in that s3/s4 summer. “i couldn’t count on anyone to stand there behind me and keep the dogs from dragging me off with them,” “my heart will be blacker than your eyes when I’m through with you,” “all of the roads are one now, each choice is the same.”

Chains - dean post-gadreel, I think. “i thought i had control / that i could always walk away / if things turned bad // we were thick as thieves / 'til i became the one / who always went too far / and I couldn't hear you.” also “but in the end I'm lost / and i'll drag you down / yeah, that's my cost” and the “i’m poison” speech lmao.

Bad Blood - this is such a fucking sam song holy shit. there’s some gadreel stuff (“so you said it was for me / when you tried to break me”),  some religious pessimism (“i know, i'm not the kind you pray for”), some throwback to the dean who promised nothing bad would ever happen to sam in s1 (“you took all my fears and / you wrapped them in wonders / but there's no magic inside the moon / it's just a rock you can't reach”).

All is Well (It's Only Blood) - finale, part one. dean dying. “i said i'd fix this / that i'd set things straight / you begged me not to / but i couldn't stay”

All is Well (Goodbye, Goodbye) - finale, part two. “so i collected all our plans and crimes / and set them all alight / the only thing that bound me to this place / you took with you when you died / so goodbye, goodbye.”

#no one come at me for my music taste okay #i imprinted on them at a vulnerable age. like a baby bird. #sorry this is SO fucking long #radical face and supernatural

[rupertgayesarchive]

That ask and your answer about what if Sam was out of hunting and never left Stanford because Gabriel wanted to stop the apocalypse and threw him into a pocket dimension and I’m like. Obsessed. primarily with gabriel and how Sam would go.

I think he would stick Sam in a like… you remember when Zachariah stuck sam and dean in the office job and it was a parallel universe but also it was real life? like coplanar planes, I think Gabriel would elect to do that instead of his you’re going in my alternate universe, because it’s less detail consuming and I think Sam would notice small things that were off like how he figured out it was him in mystery spot.

You said Sam deserves to have the apple pie life but if he was comfortable with that it wouldn’t like.. work he wouldn’t be ready to ever confront Lucifer or anyone. i agree but also I don’t think he would stick with his normal life. like in the zachariah episode he had a normal life and fake memories of that but he still wanted to hunt and help people and also figure out wtf was happening. I think in this scenario Sam would still be psychic because I love that but Gabriel would probably try like… suppressing his visions and such, because they would lead him back into possible angel business. I think he’d still get little snippets because that’s fun and having reminders in that that the supernatural like.. exists and ppl are getting hurt, I think that would overrule his want of complete normalcy and even his spite toward John.

I don’t think he’d go back into hunting like, completely because I want him to have something good and also be semi well adjusted. but like we saw in the terrible life episode I think he’d like.. if he got bored and started looking up strange deaths well now he has to go help them!!

also it is sooo fun to me if he starts realizing something is wrong but he doesn’t know what. like in mystery spot I love that trope sooo fucking much also in s1 sam gets back into hunting through John Winchester style revenge quest and I want to give him a reason to start poking around that is like.. for himself and not anybody else. he can have a little obsession over it as a treat because i like seeing him be a bitch <3

i think initially when Gabriel found out the apocalypse was like in motion and Sam was at Stanford he’d have an opportunity there to do something without revealing to other players that he is alive because he was pretending to be a trickster. like he’s very much in this for self preservation and if he did some time traveling shenanigans, or disappearing both Winchesters and maybe even Adam out of nowhere, I think he’d worry that the angels would take notice. Randy your vessels!! But Stanford gives him a natural window to hide a key player. he needs to do away with Adam too so Lucifer can’t possibly have a true vessel to fight.. maybe he can kill him in a freak accident because I find that funny. sorry this is long and it will be getting longer

anyway I think as time went on Gabriel would pay like less meticulous attention. he’d still keep away like key players but as other people also started trying to stop the apocalypse he would become more relaxed also he’d be overconfident in himself like in changing channels. I think this would lead sam to notice more stuff that just doesn’t make any sense and maybe start looking for dean or even his dad, or going out of his way to look for hunts. maybe get involved in magic because i think he deserves to be a witch. wait actually that’s how he should find Dean. i think Gabriel would hide Dean from Sam and vice versa, and he didn’t foresee Sam using magic or anything. Also at this point it’s been years and I think Sam is more invested in this than his like… normal life. he’s more well adjusted but I can definitely see him just impulsively quitting his job to figure out what the fucks happening. Also I think he’d feel animosity at dean during this for not being there and not helping him, even though that anger doesn’t make complete sense. sorry i like the early seasons salmon dean reconciling and learning to like each other and sam realizing Your Parents Are People and I would like to see it with them having like, completely different lives and also some fun miscommunication bc of Gabriel. also sam having to reconcile dean having cas OHRHDHJ also dean and cas trying horribly to cover cas being not human is so fucking fun to me. unless this happens during a cas is dead time period which is fun in a different evil way.

I also think dean would only stop looking if he though Sam was dead, but I think… Gabriel might have hidden him but other people ARE still meeting him even with like altered memories. so I think angels or something can sense that Sam is alive but they don’t know where and I think they’d gloat and use it to taunt dean that he is like.. suffering while his brother is living a perfect normal life. Also because this adds another miscommunication that can be discussed and end in reconciliation in a way I don’t think would feel contrived and is in line with it the characters. it’d be Amelia s8 but Sam would be like (Sam voice) I did look for you!!! where were you when I needed you! also I want Sam to find out John died and he’s in absolute despair while cas is standing there like oh yes that’s so awful your father was an. absolutely a man😔😐🏳️‍🌈

idk when this would occur and i think every season offers like… different flavors of enjoyment for an audience of just me. like s7 proto widower arc?? Sam reconnecting with Dean during TMWWBK when he is not familiar with the dean and cas dynamic and has to be witness to Trying So Hard To Be Loyal. additionally that would be fun because bobby is there and dean is like, covering his ears and back talking bobby regarding cas. and if they’ve taken pains to hide cas being an angel Sam being like .who is this to Dean. is suchhh a fun concept.

WAIT post goodbye stranger. or maybe Sam can show up pre goodbye stranger to watch dean go from clingy after cas gets back from purgatory to wrongfooted to like ANGRY. well not Angry… to dean having dean emotions. when cas is off with the tablet ignoring him and he feels betrayed. and this Sam isn’t as close to him so he doesn’t know ANY details until Dean stats divulging them as they reconcile. ALL GOOD OPTIONS..

also if this happens during s6 i think it would be nice if cas started collecting allies, and at the same time as Sam trying to figure out what was keeping him away from dean and the angel business Cas could figure it out FIRST and use Gabriel as an ally against Raphael but he’d feel like he has to hide it from dean and sam. like in this scenario. actually any time I talk about s6 hypotheticals Cas’ conflict IS the A Plot. the Winchester’s were on a side quest idc. s6 is a fun time for these reasons but i don’t like it as much because Cas is still in the process of like.. formative development.

okay one last thing I’m SOOO sorry for my essay. you said if Sam was dispossessed the apocalypse would just.. not happen. i agree to like, a certain degree, because I do think they could have found another way but all of them would have been dust compared to swan song. so maybe Gabriel semi succeeded but instead of stopping the apocalypse he just… prolonged it. this changes a lot but if either Michael or Lucifer didn’t have a viable vessel I think the angels would scramble to actually for real stop the apocalypse but others would still want it to happen even if it was like.. Perfect they just want it to be over. this provides angel politics which I am in love with and we can still have like TMWWBK development for cas. I don’t know where I’m going with this sorry

op this is a lot, this is so much. i love it, i hope you have a google doc open somewhere and are typing away furiously.

now i didn't rewatch a lot of spn past s3 (surprise) in part bc i can't handle the brain damage and some scenes are seared into my cerebral cortex in a way that induced a temporary bout of eidetic memory, meaning i'll never forget the crypt scene in Goodbye Stranger for as long as i live. that being SAID, my s6-s7 knowledge is not as firmly coalesced. so because of that i'm letting your thoughts roam free as i don't know how accurate my own takes would be? but i feel like without sam there, like... hm. would dean even be the same person... would the past however many seasons even OCCUR remotely similar with sam out of the picture for literal years? we might be looking at a completely different world at that point.

my other theory is that the s2 plot of special children - we know azazel was raising a new 'crop' of psychic kids. i think that was a plot thread that they ended up dropping anyway, but if they didn't i do wonder if we'd be dealing with a lot more shenanigans like in s1 and s2 except with kids? and dean and cas trying to figure out what to do with these young psychics that might be turned into a vessel for lucifer or - whatever they wanted to do with those kids. hm.

i also question if purgatory would be a thing. like it probably would come up and be on the table, but maybe the godstiel arc wouldn't, bc if like you're saying dean and cas are together at this point, like. cas might have grown to love humanity (not just dean but like 99% dean) to the point where he might not be doing this risky gambit for more souls. and if gabriel is still around, cas may start petitioning gabe to help throw his archangel weight around against raphael while he tries to do the actual strategizing.

i think sam would still have his visions, like you said, and then maybe those lead him to dean or to a case that dean is also on? or if angels are more well-known later on, he tracks one down, maybe cas, maybe not (if it's NOT and it's one that works on raphael's side. ohoho. the possibilities...)

#asks #spn #fun ideas fun times!!

[mishavacado]

SPN has so much spinoff potential and so much canon to work with, it's such a waste that none of it's getting used. This post is just all of my spinoff ideas, I'll apologize in advance because it is VERY long.

Wayward Sisters, obviously. There are so many possible storylines to work with, so many stories to tell. I'd really love to see some Charlie, Eileen, or Krissy Chambers cameos. I think that Charlie and Claire would get along really well (just read this post). Rowena is another character that I think could easily be worked into the canon. She could teach the girls all kinds of magic and be the fun wine aunt that spoils the girls on their birthdays. I don't think that Claire would like her very much, but, Rowena and Alex would probably get along just fine. How much I need this in my life: 1000000000000000000000000/10 when I heard that this idea had been tossed out I was so angry. Why doesn't this exist?

Men of Letters prequel that's mostly set in the bunker. This show could really expand on the canon lore and give us some more background on the Men of Letters, as well as any other similar/rival organizations that were around before the main show's time. The Men of Letters have so much story potential for a spin-off; corrupt leadership, new monsters, other organizations, expanding the MoL to outside the U.S. Episodes could be in a monster-of-the-week (MOTW) format, starting and ending with the Man of Letters the case is assigned to making notes in his journal or case file or talking about the case, as well as the overall season arcs. Episodes would be titled by their case number, i.e S1 E1 Case No. 1925-4, etc How much I need this in my life: 1000000/10, the supernatural/historical drama combo would be absolutely stunning.

A series focusing on all of the alternate timelines and universes, both the ones mentioned in the main show and ones just randomly created for an episode. There are infinite possibilities. Each episode would be in a MOTW format, but with different versions of Sam and Dean. The HunterCorp universe, Jared and Jensen from the French Mistake, a universe where their names are switched, a universe where Dean went to college and was the one with the demon blood powers, a universe where they drive a Mustang instead of the Impala, a universe where Sam isn't scared of clowns. I could go on, but I'm going to stop myself here. How much I need this in my life: 9/10 I think it would be pretty funny, but it's not my best idea.

A Bobby and Rufus spin-off where they talk about cases they worked on together or with other hunters, but the stories are told similarly to Tall Tales. It's the same story but told from different points of view depending on who's talking. I wish we'd gotten to see more of Bobby and Rufus because I think those two are hilarious and really think that this could be funny, even if it was just a web series with twenty-minute episodes. How much I need this in my life: 10/10, I love Bobby and Rufus and I think that they have a lot of interesting hunting stories to tell.

GHOSTFACERS GHOSTFACERS GHOSTFACERS. How much I need this in my life: 100000000000000000000000/10, I love the Ghostfacers. That's my whole idea.

A Jack-centric show that's almost a political drama. Jack is the ruler of heaven and is constantly being manipulated by angels, demons, and Death herself. He just wants to make an afterlife paradise, but power-hungry angels won't leave him alone. Remember that Jack is very young and trusting by nature, so there is a lot of potential for disaster if he gets goaded into doing something, like making new universes or ending existing ones. Cas is a main character and he does his best to protect Jack, but he has to be careful to not seem overprotective/like another manipulator or Jack won't trust him either. I have no idea if I'm making any sense, but shoutout to me if I am. For some reason, I've always thought that heaven would be an interesting setting for a spin-off, and those angels are pretty similar to power-hungry politicians. How much I need this in my life: 800/10, I would totally watch this.

A very short series that just destroys the canon finale. Twelve episodes, detailing the storylines that were ignored or destroyed by Carry On. E1: Rescuing Cas from the Empty and he and Dean have a long talk about their ~feelings~. They kiss, and for the first time, Dean’s mind is free of doubt about whether or not anyone could ever love all of him. E2: Eileen returns. She says nothing when she sees Dean and Cas holding hands, just raises her eyebrow and smiles knowingly. Some excellent movie night content. E3: 1 year later. Sam and Eileen’s wedding. Dean and Cas aren’t legally married, but their matching gold rings are very prominently shown. It isn’t mentioned. The wedding is almost canceled because of the rain, but with a wave of Jack’s hand the clouds disappear and the birds start to sing. E4: Sam and Eileen have moved out of the Bunker. Cas finally convinces Dean to downsize, so they find a little house in Lawrence and settle down. Cas works as a special ed teacher. Dean works as a mechanic. Miracle loves the backyard but makes sure to stay away from the beehives in the back corner. E5: Sam and Eileen’s twins, Mary and Maura, are born. Dean and Cas love their nieces, and Jack loves them too. He doesn’t know what to call himself, so they settle on Uncle and call it good. E6: Deaths. They all die old. Cas’s vessel has aged, but he can’t die, so when Dean finally passes away in his sleep, Cas scatters his ashes in the woods and disappears, ascending to heaven, to spend eternity with Dean. The closing scene is a dark screen, with the whoosh of wings and a soft “Hello, Dean.” OK. That was a long one. My apologies. How much I need this in my life: 100000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000/10. I would reach nerdvana thirty seconds into episode one.

Another spinoff of that idea is just...Dean and Cas living a normal life. Short episodes. Cas goes to the grocery store. Dean drags Cas to a horror movie fan convention. Cas meets a roomba. How much I need this in my life: I can’t type enough zeroes to express it.

Campbell prequel that focuses on Mary and her childhood. Mary being raised as a hunter but not being allowed on hunts. Mary rushing home to finish her chemistry homework so she can help her dad track a nest of vampires moving east. Mary missing her prom to help Samuel on a hunt. Mary trying to keep her real life secret from John, a man she knows loves the parts of her he knows about. Mary always being an outsider, the kindest and most beautiful girl in her class, but so slow to trust and quick to speak that everyone is afraid to be her friend. Mary is a character that has the potential a lot more development, for twelve seasons she’s the burning martyr in every Winchester’s imagined paradise. She deserves more. How much I need this in my life: 11/10, Mary isn’t my favorite character but I would die for her.

Gabriel spin-off. That’s it, that’s the idea. How much I need this in my life: 10000000/10, Gabriel is a character that we don’t know a lot about so there are so many possible directions for a story about him to go.

Show set in the SPN universe that doesn’t really interact with the main show’s canon. It’s about two cops in the 30s that become hunters by accident. After investigating the apparent suicide of a hunter in their small town, they become enthralled by her library, filled with books about ghosts and vampires. They pour over her journals on their own time, fascinated by what they’re reading. They get to know the hunter through her writings, her accounts of her hunts and travels. Eventually, a nest of vampires settles in the town and the two put their newfound knowledge to the test. This show would just be based on canon lore, there wouldn’t be any mention of the Winchesters or other main characters, although a few MoL team-ups is definitely a possibility. The two become quite a team, tracking werewolf backs on bulletin boards in their basements and hoarding rock salt. How much I need this in my life: 89/10, I think this could be really interesting and I am a sucker for historical hunters.

Speaking of historical hunters-Samuel Colt prequel. Cowboys, vampires, cowpires. Hunting in the wild west, galloping across the prairie chasing a pack of werewolves. This show could also tell us a lot about how different types of monsters spread across the U.S. Ghosts will go anywhere people go, but what about vampires? Shapeshifters? Ghouls? What was it like to hunt without technology to help with research? The hunters in this series would be the authors of the journals that modern hunters use every day. They’re the ones that tested tracking and trapping methods. Again, no idea if this is making sense, but I think that a supernatural western would be really awesome and would expand/substantiate the canon lore. How much I need this in my life: 1000000000000000000000000000000/10, I love cowboys and I love Supernatural. This is literally the best thing that could ever happen to me.

Crowley. I want to know more about him. A series that tells us all about Fergus Roderick MacLeod, starting with when he was born in Scotland and ending with his death in All Along the Watchtower. We know that Rowena was his mother, that he was a tailor, that he sold his soul for an extra three inches ~down there~, and that he was a terrible dad. I want to know more about his childhood, about the people he made deals with, about how he became king of the crossroads and of Hell. Crowley was a very interesting character that was abused by the story. I want to know more about him. How much I need this in my life: 10000000000000000000000000000000000000/10, I really do love Crowley and I would watch this a thousand times over.

Final idea: MOTW only. No season arc, no overall storyline. New hunters every episode, from all different times, from over the world. All kinds of monsters. One episode in Victorian England, the next in 1990s Los Angeles. Very few recurring characters, if any. The recurring characters would be the Bobby Singers of the world; the lore guys that you call when you need help. Each new character has their own style, own car, own music, own personality. The show could have some a m a z i n g guest stars because they’d only appear in a few episodes. There are so many possibilities for episodes, even if they weren’t full length. How much I need this in my life: 100000/10, I love MOTW episodes and would really like to get to know the characters. It would be very easy to write one-off fanfics for this show, and also very easy to introduce this show’s characters into Supernatural’s canon.

You made it to the end!!!!!!!! That’s all I have for now. Sorry for writing so much, I just can’t stop thinking about SPN and all of the wasted stories.

#al speaks #spn #spn spin-offs #my ideas #i worked hard on this #big brain time #do you like it?

[zmediaoutlet]

That anon made me think. What would you say about Sam's deeply buried kinks? Same premise. I'm curious to read your opinion.

hey haha hello I may be getting to this uhh criminally late but that’s how my inbox is anymore -- this was, I’m pretty sure, in ref to the post about Dean’s kinks that he’s embarrassed/worried to share with Sam. So, for Sam:

Would he be embarrassed to share kinks with Dean? I think the answer is yes, but it’s a... different yes. Maybe more like this:

I’m just gonna rewrite the first paragraph of the Dean post:

–that being said, obviously this depends on how you characterize your Sam-who-is-sleeping-with-Dean. (I assume that’s the context of this, and it’s not, like, actual Show Canon!Sam who’s just chatting away with Dean about his kinks. That dude would also probably not share some of his real kinks, but would evade the topic and make the conversation more about Dean’s goofy admitted kinks, to try to torture his annoying big brother.)

But absolutely, absolutely, absolutely Sam has some weird shit going on in the ol’ mind palace that he probably doesn’t let see the light of day, a lot of the time. Sam’s had a really interesting long-form character development over the course of the show--and he’s actually changed quite a bit from the sort of angry young fool of s1 to the hypermature (if sorta spineless) wise man of s15. This makes it really crucial to pinpoint the when of the Sam you’re dealing with--what’s his canon context? What is he working through, in the moment that you’re writing him? What are his concerns and hang-ups and issues, that would carry over into the bedroom?

That’s why there are a lot more question marks in the yes for Sam than there are for Dean. Dean, for all that he’s acquired a shitload of depth over fifteen years, is... largely the same guy he was when we met him, back when. Sam’s absolutely, demonstrably not. Sure, his various selves have a lot in common, but boy have there been some revelations along the way

All of which is to say: fam, it depends.

The Sam I most like writing is the guy he is as of roughly s9-12: adult, confident, knowing what he wants, understanding his craziness with Dean and largely accepting it, in charge of his life and relatively at peace with himself. Even with all that, though, Sam lives a life largely interiorized. Dean’s the one who spills personality everywhere; Sam, probably at least partially in self-defense, keeps stuff locked inside. We didn’t even find out about his serial killer hobby until s10. What else is knocking around in that massive brain of his, that he’d be cautious about letting out?

To be honest, you could kind of make an argument for... anything. Is he a sadist? He easily could be. Is he a masochist? Sure, that’s possible. Does he want to tie Dean up and have his wicked way? I’d buy it. Does he want to be blindfolded and have his ears plugged and completely lose all connection with the world, so that he can get some quiet at last? Absolutely! Why not?

I prefer to write Sam as sort of... naturally in control of the relationship with Dean (which has plenty of canon support, if you’re looking, but I don’t feel like providing citations right now), and so the sorts of ‘deeply buried kinks’ I like to pair with that involve both the assertion of that control and the times that control bursts out of his hands and he goes Vesuvius, as we used to say. Sam who actually does have a tiny bit of a kink for causing pain, and more than that seeing the look in Dean’s eyes when *Dean* realizes that Sam’s getting off on it. That moment of strange, norm-breaking thrill. A moment where Sam gets to fully indulge in his strength and masculinity and absolutely rail someone, when normally he’s so careful and polite--hip-bruising, turnt-out sex, where he’s left panting and hot-faced afterward and absolutely doesn’t want to apologize. Handcuffing Dean and putting a folded-up scarf over his eyes and then doing exactly what he wants, which is to make Dean come apart over and over until he’s crying, but Dean’s mind is wiped free of all the nasty shit that it dredges up for him on dark nights and Sam knows, when he releases the cuffs, that Dean will just curl up against Sam’s chest and sleep hard and dreamless, which is all Sam wanted for him in the first place--

But of course, that’s different in s3. In s14. Pre-series, when everything was so hot-eyed uncertain; post-series, when (hopefully) they’ll have long, sweet, married years to figure each other out. Sam holds everything tight up inside himself, but the great thing about it is--no matter what he says, even if Dean freaks out about it at first or if Dean doesn’t get it, Dean eventually accepts it. Shit, Dean was willing to cover up Sam’s murders. Dean was willing to help Sam with his freaky demon powers. If Sam says he wants to cut Dean with fine razors and watch the blood leak down his thighs, Dean will probably flip and will disappear from the bunker for a day or two, and then he’ll come stomping back with flechettes and hydrogen peroxide and he’ll be super serious when he says that it’s just this once, for Sam’s birthday, and then if Sam wants it again Dean will do it then, too, and forget the ‘just once’ rule.

That’s the thing. No matter how deeply buried, no matter how weird, it’ll work, between the two of them. They just... work. How lucky for them, that that’s so.

#really getting semantic satiation with 'yes' rn #anyway #spn #wincest #sam and sex #archtroop

[mattholicguilt]

been thinking a lot about What If sam and eileen had met when they were much younger (like, s1) and i know sam was not fully reconciled to hunting and eileen was so laser focused on her revenge but i feel like maybe those kind of opposites could've been interesting to see play off of each other

oh man they really could have..... they also have so much in common in terms of backstories (parents dying right in front of them while they were in their cribs, eileen's mentor lillian vs john training them but not raising them)

she's two years younger which is much less of a deal when theyre 36 and 38 but eileen meeting sam when she's 20?!?! she's been on her own for 4 years, still trying to track down the banshee that took her parents

the idea that sam went to college and tried to have a normal life would probably be baffling to her. makes me wonder if eileen ever tried to get out of the life, maybe after lillian died? or if she never even thought about it

i can see them meeting up a few different times in s1 and being like. "any leads on your banshee?" "no, any leads on your demon?" "no"

i doubt they'd start dating when sam's still mourning jess, but would they then be friends throughout seasons 2, 3, 4? she watches sam get revenge on yellow eyes but then she watches him keep doing what he's doing and realizes, oh, that's what will happen when i finally get my revenge

oh man if she was around while dean went to hell? eileen trying to be there for sam and help him grieve and cope while ruby is pushing him into another revenge plot

eileen distrusting and disliking ruby and sam thinking it's a jealousy thing and eileen's like "shit maybe it IS" but then knowing that regardless of what she feels for sam, she just wants him to be safe and okay while ruby clearly doesnt want that.... like yes it's a love triangle but a good one. with like... Themes.

#spn #saileen

[whentheynameyoujoy]

Women in SPN—Is it Really That Bad?

TL;DR: Somewhat, yeah, it kinda is.

This is going to be a series of long ones, people.

Before I jump head first into this giant vat of weird toxic shit, let me say something:

The thing about most of the female characters is that on their own? They’re perfectly fine, ranging from serviceable to the occasional flash of thematic brilliance. Barely any of them qualify as “this is hateful on its face and incompetent regardless of context and the writers should feel bad for ever conceiving of it”, i.e. the normie benchmark for justified criticism. It’s only when you put these characters next to each other that a worrying pattern emerges;

Although discussions about sexism in the media were very much a thing in the mid-2000s, as well as shows with characters whose primary role wasn’t to serve a man’s needs, I can’t honestly claim that the flaws of SPN are out of the norm for its time; and

The first few seasons could really do with a PSA at the start of each episode, something along the lines of “A part of the reason why female characters are killed off or written out with such regularity is rabid superfans who couldn’t abide anything with tits brushing against J2, srsly, the writing team and the 2000s’ fan base were a match made in hell, except it wasn’t the writers who couldn’t do with bitching on their LiveJournals about the gall of women to exist in the show, choosing instead to harass the creators and actresses and wives and call them every sexist insult under the sun AND I MEAN WHAT THE FUCK IS WRONG WITH YOU PEOPLE HAS THERE EVER BEEN A CESSPIT AS DISGUSTING AND NUKEWORTHY AS THE SPN FANDO—“

Anyway.

SPN has a legacy (as a posterchild for not knowing when to bow out gracefully, but legacy nonetheless) and isn’t watched in 2005 but in the year of our Lord Today. Meaning that as time goes by, the issues surrounding the show’s production retreat into the background and only what’s on the screen remains, to be judged on its own merits.

So let’s run down a list of the more noteworthy and relevant female characters of the first arc, focusing on their characterization, role in the narrative, and end. In the conclusion to this series of posts, the sum of characters will be analyzed as a whole to see if there are any unique tendencies in the show’s handling of women as opposed to that of men. I’ll do this for the original five seasons as the recent finale went out of its way to say that nothing after season 5 was strictly speaking necessary so why bother.

(Also because I died of frustration in season 8 and vowed not to subject myself to any more of the post-apocalypse fanfic era)

Angels, while strictly speaking genderless clouds of energy, will be classified as men or women depending on the apparent gender of the vessel they spend most of the time riding. The same goes for demons where I also take into account their stated gender while they were alive. That’s because although beings like Meg, Ruby, Anna, or Lilith can’t technically be considered women in the show’s present day, their consistent preference for conventionally attractive and/or female vessels throughout the original arc makes claims of genderlessness essentially meaningless. For all intents and purposes, we’re watching girls and women on screen.

Baby—the only true NB of the first run

All right, time to jump.

Say hi to our ladies!

Mary Winchester

Killed in the very first scene to give the story a reason to exist, she remains an active presence throughout the first arc where she has a wide-reaching influence on the plot and characters, driving the conflict on several levels. Fleshed-out more and more with each appearance to be more than just “the dead mom”, she’s portrayed as protective, pro-active, capable, and assertive, mirroring the duo’s desire for normal life and their inability to have it. Her story comes full-circle in season 5 when the personal tragedy of her fate is embedded in the wider tragedy of the Winchester family curse and the overall theme of destiny.

Status: Dead as of s5

Importance: Major

On her own: Textbook example of fridging… and that tropes aren’t bad in and of themselves.

Jessica Moore

Comparatively, if anyone doubts fridging can evolve into something meaningful, Jess drives the point home by having no personality and no point but to prop up her boyfriend before she ends up pinned to the ceiling, the reveal of which is the most interesting thing about her entire existence. At best she’s a symbol of Sam’s civilian life, at worst an obstacle to be removed for the story to happen.

Status: Dead as of s5

Importance: Major in terms of manpain, non-existent otherwise

On her own: A cardboard cut-out, barely qualifies as a character

Missouri Moseley

A psychic and the primary reason why John Winchester even knows to wipe his ass. Appears once over the course of the first arc yet everyone wants her to come back years later—that’s how awesome she is. Has this fantastic trait of being compassionate and empathetic while not taking a single speck of shit from anyone, especially when it comes from the two main dumbos who might just as well have been raised in a barn. Is very particular about the pristine state of her coffee table.

Status: Alive as of s5, killed in s13 (wait, what?)

Importance: Major…ly wasted potential

On her own: As strong a character as Bobby Singer, and as worthy of being elevated to the main cast.

Lori Sorensen

The writers can’t figure out why anyone in the universe would care about Jess either so they insert an intentionally awkward romance subplot to convince people the time’s not yet ripe for Sam to stop grieving and start slaying. The result’s… erm… well, awkward. Lori’s naïve, sheltered, devout though accepting of her non-repressed friend, and sort of on a religious crossroads because of her hypocritical preacher father. I guess the virginal power of her virginal virginity does… something in the plot? Primarily a vehicle for Sam to mark the stages of his moving on.

Status: Alive as of s5

Importance: Minor

On her own: A bit done. Like a bit lot. Like a “could be a trope namer” bit lot.

Meg

Boom, baby!

Arguably the chief antagonist of season 1 and one of the best things about it. The first one to point out the pervasive toxicity of the Winchester family business, so props for perceptiveness. Possesses the standard qualities of a lower-level henchman—manipulative, no-nonsense, and quietly sinister which, while not exactly groundbreaking, sets her apart from the other bad guys in the season as they tend to have no distinguishing characteristics at all. Plus Nicki Aycox makes the role seem more unique and “lived-in” by projecting a sense of understated amusement at the two main chucklefucks. Is one of S1’s turning points in blurring the lines between monsters and humanity. Has a face transplant twice—once to have revenge (good on her) and the other time to pursue someone else’s goals again before getting stomped into the ground like a mook.

Status: Alive as of s5 (?), killed in s8

Importance: Major

On her own: The actresses do most of the heavy lifting. Which doesn’t mean I don’t love watching the character burst onto the scene and announcing the end of the Winchester brand of bullshit.

Layla Rourke

A terminal cancer patient in a religious cult, she’s a more mature take on a Lori-type character and the themes of faith and doubt. Serves as a conduit for Dean’s budding survivor guilt, self-loathing, and sense of worthlessness. Is kind and cheerful, with strong hints that she’s relying on forced optimism to get through the days; also understanding of the circumstances of others while realistically freaked about the possibility of death. Weirdly, she enters the episode already in a state of acceptance and leaves it just as accepting when it’s confirmed that yeah, she’ll die soon. All expressions of anger at the injustice and senselessness are left to her mother which somewhat undermines the “struggling” portion of Layla’s character and renders the final scene where she makes peace with her fate a bit hollow.

Status: Implied dead

Importance: Minor in the overall narrative, major in the episode and Dean’s development

On her own: I want to like her, I really do, just… if only she were allowed to get pissed, once.

Cassie Robinson

Dean’s ex and that’s pretty much all there is to her. I struggle to pinpoint a single personality trait of hers—the 2000s idea of a “strong woman” and “not like other girls”, perhaps? Undermined as a love interest because TPTB don’t show the happy or any parts of her relationship with Dean so really, why should anyone care if two sniping assholes with little to no chemistry get back together? Memorable for being in a horribly scored softcore scene which YouTube tries to convince me lasts for shy over a minute, not the week I remember it to. Involved in the show’s first and last attempt at incorporating the issue of anti-black racism.

Status: Alive as of s5

Importance: Minor

On her own: She’s in the racist truck episode. ‘Nuff said.

Sarah Blake

A sophisticated people-person conversationalist with a love of high art and a deep sense of introspection. Ascends to the state of godhood by being able to pull off pigtails while adult. Bonds with Sam over responding to loss by crawling into a shell but deciding to move on. Doesn’t care for your fancy schmancy fine dining, Romeo. Isn’t ashamed to openly talk feelings which includes her explicitly asking Sam if they have a thing going on (honestly, this is such a breath of fresh air for a normcore romance). Despite being scared out of her wits, she refuses to be shoved into the helpless civilian box after learning about the existence of the supernatural; Dean creates a Pinterest wedding board in response.

Status: Alive as of s5, pointlessly dragged back to be murdered in s8

Importance: Minor in the overall narrative, major in the episode and Sam’s development

On her own: A great love interest that has enough writing behind her to fool you into thinking she’s something more.

Up next, whenever I feel like it, seasons 2 and 3!

#spn #spn critical #supernatural #supernatural critical #sexist writing #mary winchester #missouri moseley #meg masters #sarah blake #layla rourke

[mego42]

207 Discussion Q’s

shout out and thank you to @pynkhues for putting these together even though she wasn’t gonna be here this week

1. What was your favourite scene of the episode? Tell us why!

obvs the dubby but underrated fav is Ruby and Jane in the closet, idk exactly why but I am starved for the families interacting with each other content (screw the timeline, the most unrealistic aspect of this show is that they aren’t constantly in and out of each other’s houses with ben and sara continually being called on to babysit) so this little snippet makes me levitate

2. Was there any scene that missed the mark for you? And if so, how?

the annie and noah scenes for sure. I mostly feel betrayed bc I really liked them the first time I watched (i have a lot of built in affection for sam huntington let me live) and now I’m like BEGONE FOUL BETRAYER and feel pre-emptive fatigue over annie’s taste in men and how that’s not going to get better any time soon

3. I know time does not exist in the Good Girls universe (or in reality anymore), but let’s start with a timeline question! The implication of the opening montage is that a bit of time has past since Beth strongarmed the partnership with Rio at the end of 2.06. How long do you think it’s been? And more importantly, what do you think these early days of their partnership looked like?

I tend to lean towards at least 2 months, maybe more based on:

the number of shoeboxes and how many times Beth’s shown making a closet deposit

how lived in their annoyance over Beth’s dividing her time and Rio pushing back feels

the implication (at least how i read it) that Rio’s annoyance stems from having to track Beth down which presumably implies they’d grumbled their way into a semi-functional working relationship prior (supported by their ease with each other in 208) and if the montage has only been a month, that would be a maximum of 4 meetings and I don’t particularly think that’s enough time for them to get over being extremely prickly with each other

the fact that Beth goes to Rio for help when Jane’s missing (again, to me implies a longer period of time to get over some of their antagonism than a max of 4 meets)

I imagine their initial partnership went something like Beth being a smug brat about forcing her way in, Rio being deliberately unhelpful and trying to force her to admit she’s in over her head (while still keeping enough of an eye on things that his money isn’t jeopardized), Beth stubbornly refusing to and finding ways to rise to the occasion, Rio being grudgingly impressed, Beth being annoyed with herself for how pleased she is over that. Lather, rinse, repeat until they’ve worn a cantankerous but bizarrely comfortable groove into each other.

meanwhile, Mick, Annie and Ruby are absolutely disgusted by everything happening in front of their eyes.

4. The first scene between Ruby and Turner in this episode is a really dynamic one! It’s pretty clear that Ruby’s afraid of Turner, but what do you think Turner thinks of Ruby?

I think he sees a big cartoon canister labeled "Beth Boland Bait"

5. Taking the kids to the drop was a pretty big mistake! What do you think Beth should’ve done in this instance? Do you think saying no again to Rio was an option?

CALLED BEN OR SARA FOR A BABYSITTING ASSIST. For fucks’ sake.

And yeah, I think she could’ve said no to Rio but he would’ve kept her cut of that drop and, even worse, would’ve been able to hold the fact that she didn’t deliver that one time over her head forever more.

6. The krav maga teacher offers some sage advice telling Dean to not order the hit and instead just divorce his wife, haha. Do you think that he thought the baby hitmen would come through for Dean? Or do you think he was deliberately setting Dean up to get robbed?

I choose to believe the krav maga teacher knew exactly what kind of an idiot Dean was and set him up because the dude clearly had at least two brain cells to rub together and anyone with two brain cells to rub together would never get tangled up in a murder plot with Dean standing on the street corner telling random bystanders in detail how he wants to kill the guy that fucked his wife what do you mean established means and motive Boland.

7. During Ben and Annie’s tense conversation, Ben tells Annie that she’s hard to keep track of - she’s parent mom, cool mom, sketchy mom. In a lot of ways, this feels like a parallel to Ruby talking to Beth in the last episode and calling her ‘drug Beth, gun Beth, human trafficking Beth’. What do you make of this? And how do you think it relates to the show’s themes?

I defer to @foxmagpie’s answer because I like it a lot. 

8. The scene with the girls in the house! Tell me all your thoughts please!!!

I love this scene a lot

Beth’s channeling Rio in general but also specifically in 201 you will never ever change my mind

Sometimes I lie awake at night wishing Rio had seen it

Prayer circle that he sees a version of it in s4

Can you imagine the nightmare level of boner he would get? The sheer narcissism!!

Ruby’s obvious wish for new friends is The Most Valid

I really love the main drug den guy, I love Blake Shields’s energy, it makes the scene crackle, and I wish they’d bring him back purely bc he’s gr9

9. Annie meets Noah in this episode! What do you think of their introduction to one another? And how would you rate Noah on the scale of ‘Garbage Annie Love Interests’?

at least he’s not her therapist I guess

10. Beth has two pivotal and emotionally revealing fights this episode - one with Dean and the other with Rio. How do these fights compare? And what do you think they tell us about her respective relationship with them?

UUUNNNNNFFFFFFFF

I L O V E how hard the show goes on Dean’s obsession with Beth and Rio as the primary source of his angst

the fact that he’s trying to rope Stan into murder while looking for Jane who isn’t even MISSING but Dean had NO IDEA bc instead of giving a shit he went straight to HOW CAN THIS BE THAT GUY’S FAULT

I love how clearly they delineate that it isn’t about Beth but specifically about someone else ~*~taking~*~ Beth from him and how emasculated that makes him feel (something something something the storyline opens with the krav maga guy choking him out and then telling him to divorce her and Dean being like I reject your rational and logical solution bc it doesn’t punish the man who touched my property, idk i have a half baked thought there but i can’t pull it out of my brain)

and then it’s all underscored how little Dean’s worried about Beth and her safety by him bringing her work up specifically as a gotcha (which, unless I’m forgetting something, is p much the only context Dean ever brings it up in besides maybe the sit down fight but that’s again, about Beth acting out vs genuine concern)

Meanwhile, this is contrasted with:

Beth flipping tf out at the mere suggestion Rio would ever hurt her children, showing how deeply and instinctively she trusts him in regards to her children aka what’s been established as her Most Important Priority over and over (in the same breath that she rips into Dean for losing Jane in the first place)

which is doubled down on her immediately going to Rio for help

and he is FURIOUS at her, but the thing he leans hard on isn’t how she could have jeopardized the business deal (aka his money, what’s been established as his Most Important Priority over and over) but how she jeopardized herself and how badly she can fuck up if she doesn’t take this seriously

putting himself in a vulnerable position (presumably burning a connect, letting on that Beth means something to him beyond business) to look out for Beth’s emotional well-being

And then, just to drive it home a little further, @sothischickshe pointed out the Beth and Rio fight over Beth’s self preservation is directly paralleled with Stan freaking out at Ruby over the IA stuff because he’s worried about her and I had to go and stare at a blank wall for a few minutes to calm down.

anyway, draw your own conclusions.

11. Ruby takes Jane being missing as an opportunity to try and find evidence on Beth for Turner and, in the process, finds Jane too. How do you think this scene captures Ruby’s moral dilemma? And do you think it’s a satisfying turning point in the Ruby-Turner arc?

I struggle a lot with the Turner and Ruby plot specifically because I HATE that Turner’s ruthlessly leaning on Ruby as the weak link but I’m also ferociously attracted to him so I’m less bothered by it than I feel like I should be so mostly I just try not to think about any of it.

Idk, I see it in some ways as a continuation of Ruby’s fight with Beth and Annie in s1 where Annie said she isn’t blood. They put Ruby on the outside but when push comes to shove, Ruby still puts the two of them above her own family. As far as I’m concerned, Annie still owes Ruby a massive apology for that. Beth I let off the hook a little because by the end of the season she’s ready to turn herself in to make it all go away for all of them (I think, unless I’m misremembering, which is entirely possible bc I don’t think I’ve ever rewatched all of 213)

12. RIO GETS BETH THE DUBBY!! That’s it, that’s the question. Please discuss.

I think a lot about how the gesture is so baldly honest neither one of them can face it either at all (Rio) or without taking a shot first (Beth) which, now that I’ve typed it out, is also an interesting flip of their general MO bc under normal circumstances I’d put Rio down as the one that, of the two of them, is more willing to face stuff whereas Beth’s the one that hides from it.

#gg rewatch #gg 2x07 #gg related #shut up meg