#part of course correcting the popular fandom interpretations | Explore Tumblr Posts and Blogs

toxxtt-kotlc · 11 months

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Hello! If I may, would you be amenable to expanding on your "most of you are kinda racist" tag? I do have an idea of what you're referring to with characterization for character of color, and there have been several posts about that in the fandom in the past, but I wanted to ask for clarity to know what you, specifically, have noticed. To be aware of what's happening, talk about it, correct mindsets and actions if needed

Of course, you don't have to answer and can just delete this if you'd like. No pressure. Hope you have a good day :)

hi! mostly i was referring to characterizations of the song twins and wylie and maruca. obviously posts about the issues with linh and tam have been made many times before. for the most part i think that problems with the song twins come from canon itself, but i think people in general need to be more conscientious when looking at their characters and the stereotypes that are already in them :)

and for wylie and maruca, i can't really speak on stereotypes and biases that the fandom has for them as a non-black person, but i just feel like they get put aside by the fandom a lot despite being major characters (wylie in particular)

i really feel like wylie should be an incredibly popular character in this fandom. i mean, he's just got so much... angst about him. you guys love angst. i feel like people take what makes his character so interesting and the hurt and loss that comes with him and just slap it onto another non-black character.

obviously not everyone has to be in love with wylie. but i think the reason such a hurt-and-comfort fic generating machine is ignored so much is because as a black male, he's automatically viewed as more masculine than other characters. therefore he can't be the fandom's "boohoo sad wet sopping cat" character like fitz or keefe, even though HE IS LITERALLY THE DEFINITION OF SOPPING WET SAD GOT KIDNAPPED AND TORTURED DEAD MOM FUCKED DAD WHAT ELSE DO YOU GUYS WANT FROM HIM!!!!!!!!

anyways i wish this was more eloquent but i just wrote this really quick!! these are really specific examples but i don't know how to put the general overall racism that i see into words... i'll work on that!! i also don't know how to explain the issues with fanon maruca that i see so

tldr: the song twin's characters have pretty obvious bias and stereotypes that the fandom needs to be more aware of, wylie isn't popular despite his sad cat-ness because black men are seen as more masculine, maruca's characterization makes me uncomfortable in general but idk how to explain it

please tell me if anything i said was wrong or hurtful! i am not black so you should always listen to black people before me. also i am probably biased as a die-hard wylie fan so take anything i say with a grain of salt :) would love to hear other people's opinions on this!

*also, put this in the tags but i feel like its important to say here too: sad sopping wet meow meow wylie is NOT a good interpretation/characterization its pretty shallow but he still should be getting the same treatment as other characters

#yeah wylie was kinda a dick to sophie SO WAS LITERALLY EVERY OTEHR CHARACTER!!!!!!!#obviously fitz and keefe have their own traumas but i feel like wylie should be on the same level as them #also yeah sad cat wylie is not a good characterization. neither is sad cat fitz or sad cat keefe he should still get that treatment #toe talks #oh and i have stuff to say abt the prentice/tiergan ship too but i have geniunely no idea how to put it into words sorry

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gothhabiba · 2 years

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Ever since the beginning of popular literacy there always has been and there presumably always will be anxiety about people reading the “wrong” things in the “wrong” way (in the “wrong” physical formats at the “wrong” times in the “wrong” places...), and this anxiety historically concerns itself most with women (they're uncritically reading Gothic and sentimental novels and it’s going to destroy their ability to perceive reality!! they’re reading by candlelight in bed and it’s going to get them sexually excited!!!) and the newly literate lower classes (they're reading penny dreadfuls and trashy romances and magazines and other trite immoral drek printed on flimsy paper of terrible quality and it's turning their heads away from their work!!!).

What interests me about this phenomenon in a fandom context is that it makes perfect sense for fannish behaviour to be derided in similar ways—given that fans (at least since the inception of modern fandom culture and fanfiction with Star Trek, and arguably earlier with the Janeites) are widely stereotyped as inadequately analytically and rhetorically sophisticated and unable to read in the “right” ways, and also inappropriately feminine, inadequately “grown up,” and inadequate to the tasks of everyday (masculine) life because of their emotional attachment to and identification with a fictional text (i.e. “nerd who still lives in his parents’ basement and can’t get girls”).

This is why the history of Jane Austen studies is in effect a recovery mission of Austen’s legacy on the part of the professional literati from the “Janeite” fans—mostly men but widely referred to with explicitly feminising language. And this masculinising mission impacts the dominant readings of Austen’s works to this day. And of course “Austen fandom” nowadays is broadly composed of women and broadly written about in feminine terms, so Austen studies (of a particular conservative strand) have to shore up their right to produce and safeguard “correct” readings against the rabble who just want to take a vacation to the place where Colin Firth jumped into the lake (read: who are illicitly getting sexually titillated by what should be high literature—so an "inappropriate" sexual response to fiction is again connected to "bad" reading practices, femininity, and immaturity).

And while early Star Trek convention fandom was primarily male, these men were stereotyped as immature, emasculated, overly obsessed with fantasy and incapable of distinguishing it from real life. And the fanfiction and zine cultures that arose around Star Trek were primarily female in composition. The Kirk/Spock zine scene, in particular, was overwhelmingly female, and again consisted of women being "inappropriately" sexually titillated by the fiction which they watched and the fanart they produced, distributed and consumed (as opposed to being "appropriately" sexually aroused by appropriate sex "in real life," which for a woman of course consists of erotic submission to a man... I wonder who benefits from this idea).

So there was anxiety surrounding how these fans were “reading” and interpreting the Star Trek, anxiety surrounding how and what they were writing, and anxiety surrounding how fans were reading what other fans produced. “Bad” reading practices produce “bad” writing which produces “bad” reading practices. There's a direct line from this kind of attitude to the derision that fandom-based erotic, reading, and writing behaviours come in for today (people who create and consume fan art are "freaks," "immature," not "adults," not "normal," not "well-adjusted," not having sex in "real life" which btw is bad).

I don’t necessarily want to lose the ability to criticise anyone’s interpretation of anything or to call any show or book or writing “bad,” to be clear. But it seems to me that a lot of animus against “bad” reading practices, insofar as it is centred around misunderstandings of what fandom reading practices actually are, owes a lot of its vigour to this ideological genealogy.

#fanfiction #fandom #Jane Austen #Star Trek #misogyny

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ratgirlcopia · 25 days

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Just curious, what sparked your interest in trans woman Copia? :0

genuinely this is such a Deep Question to me that i've left it sitting in the box for way too long.

i think i actively resisted caring about copia as a character for as long as i could (so maybe like, a month or two) because i knew i would get in too deep. which did happen. obviously.

when i first got into ghost, i didn't have any particularly strong feelings on copia's identity. i'd watched the chapters and the music videos and whatever, but i'd fully turned the critical thinking switch off in my brain. at this point i also did not have any exposure to fandom stuff, and the main two things that made me interested in copia were the impera-era stage costumes and the body language/character acting choices.

then of course i went online and started getting more exposure to fandom stuff, and 99% of it was and continues to be stuff that does not align at all with my impression of copia as a character. i dabbled in transmasc copia stuff for a while, but ultimately it just started feeling less correct to me the more i started rewatching things and trying to do serious ghost analysis (impossible task, always a mistake, still fun to do). i understand why it's a popular headcanon, because there are a lot of transmasculine people who like ghost, of which i am one, but ultimately it doesn't fit my interpretation of copia at all.

copia strikes me as a character who became more feminine in the impera era, both in terms of fashion and symbolic association. i'm not really quiet about those sorts of things, so i feel like that part is self explanatory. i do also joke about how in the chapters it literally feels like copia is experiencing misogyny, but that's only like 20% joke and 80% Real Sincere Belief. i also think copia is not self-actualized enough as a person for me to believe that any sort of gender awareness or transition has already happened. copia does, though, read as somebody who has had to ignore or deny the existence of certain feelings or parts of themself in pursuit of approval from authority figures. which is true regardless of whether or not you want to put "gender" on the list of repressed things.

ultimately, it's very hard to even make sweeping statements about what copia is or could be like as a person, since the two sides of copia we see are 1) seeking audience approval, and 2) seeking parental approval, neither of which gives us any look at what copia might want or act like or do if given full approval or encouragement. so it's easy to project a lot of different readings, when there's honestly almost no way of knowing who copia actually wants to be.

it's fun, then, when things like the halloween quiz and the plastic surgery comments and the mamma mia sophie parallel DO sort of indicate what copia likes/prefers/thinks about, because several of the (very few) unique pieces of information we get about copia tend to tilt toward things associated with women or femininity. so ultimately, it's a headcanon that's fun for me, and i'd probably be doing it even if there was no "evidence" for it, but also, if you're sitting down and trying to catalogue every known fact about copia (as i often do), it skews in that general direction. so that keeps it interesting.

#anon #ask

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council-of-beetroot · 1 year

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I see other anons saying how you made Poland more popular, I say you redeemed Poland from the stuff that early fandom made Poland so annoying. <3 <3 <3

I guess i made him more likeable than how i sometimes see in some fics, and i guess i gave him a bit more rounded personality. If you go way back into older fics Poland is usually reduced to pink, ponies, my entire personality is being so camp it hurts. And i feel like still in a lot of fics where he is a minor character he really still often just has that role of funny camp gay side character.

Other times in fics you just see him as a complete self absorbed asshole which is quite frustrating. Like basically his personality reduced to "I like totally won't help liet, hey look! there's a sale on really cute purses!"

Then i feel like in trying to make Poland a better character some go the route of completely removing everything about him canonically and it's like this isn't Feliks anymore. Plus, i feel like in some portrayals that go this route it really just becomes let's just use him as a way to glorify Poland which definitely is problematic.

Canonically, I feel like Hima has expanded Feliks personality too so it's a bit more well rounded as well which definitely does help.

But as i said you can't get rid of that personality Hima gave him you just have to build on it and add more depth.

Then the other key part is using that personality and seeing how a personality like that would see himself and be viewed by others through out the course of Polish history.

In the show he is shown to be very out of the box in his thinking now tie that to polish history where in the Commonwealth they had a completely out of the box never before seen style of government.

Or the fact that he is both the type to stand out do whatever he wants and pretends not to care but is internally much more insecure and struggles with social situations and that also strangely fits as well.

Also when you first look at Feliks you don't think much or expect much of him and you watch him and think how are you alive you look so dumb? Then that also fits in a way because he's shown to be smarter than he looks, he represents a country that somehow despite the odds is still on the map somehow and that other countries tended to underestimate but you see in episodes like the battle of Grunwald that there is a reason why he is still around and fighting (same with Lithuania)

Then for me it's also quite interesting and fun to play with Feliks' gender identity and sexuality it's fun to explore the both masculine and feminine aspects but that is something i just enjoy exploring personally.

But back to Lithuania as that's the relationship in the show that hima focuses on the most. This relationship isn't perfect which sometimes the pitfall here is that it's portrayed like it is or it's like Lithuania being like "Poland save me!" (I find this in ameliet too sometimes and it annoys me as well)

Or making them absolutely hate each other pisses me off because relationships are way more nuanced than that because while there were problems and rough spots in their relationship usually when you have such a deep connection with someone you are more likely to work through those rough spots. And they understand eachother more than anyone.

Then i think people tend to make Feliks the jerk in their relationship when in reality both people play a role in making a relationship less than ideal (poor wording because no relationship is perfect or ideal) Both do stuff to each other that is hurtful that's how relationships are naturally. Neither Tolys or Feliks is perfect.

Alright that's a pretty long tangent and i could probably ramble on but yep

Granted my interpretation of Poland isn't the only good interpretation of Poland or the correct one and I like seeing people's interpretations.

#hetalia #hws poland #aph poland #asks and replies #anon

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egg-emperor · 1 year

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I hate to ask this, but do other eggman enjoyers... Want him not to be evil? I mean this in the most respectful way, but eggman doesn't have a whole lot going on canonically besides being evil. If someone doesn't like that part what part are they into?

I regret to inform you that it's been a very shockingly controversial aspect of his character in recent years, despite him being the main villain of the series and it confuses and frustrates me to no end lol. I think part of it is because of small things outside of the game canon media, where he has vastly different portrayals and isn't anywhere near as evil. Which is all fine and good for them to like of course but then they dislike and can't accept that the original Eggman in the games has always been pure evil without any genuine good morals and traits, and no chance of redemption. And they'll get mad and judge one's character over those who actually like it.

And as a result of them liking those lesser evil versions of him more, they will attempt to ignore or highly misinterpret Eggman's scenes in the actual games, because he's one of the most unpopular versions for actually being a lot more evil and doing so is the only way they can like him there at all. And if someone actually likes that he's evil and chooses to acknowledge and embrace those things and correct the misinformation instead, they will tell them to stop ruining their fun and accuse them of being a bad person for caring. I've unfortunately been a target of this for appreciating his evil and making passionate analysis and writings based on that.

Eggman has become the subject of a lot of tropes based around giving him redeeming qualities that he doesn't have that doesn't make sense for the character he was established to be and has remained consistently so. The most popular fanon Eggman interpretation is vastly different from the game canon and liking him as he appears in the games and expressing that openly gets you alienated. It's at the point where I'm being kicked out of the fandom by newer fans that have only liked him for as long as the nicer versions and fanon of the character has existed and some older fans that latched onto them while ignoring and misinterpreting game canon.

And yeah you're absolutely right and that's especially wild about it, he doesn't have anything going on canonically in the games that doesn't involve his evil in any way at all. Even if people like his charming funny and casual moments, his evil is still a part of everything he does, it defines him, his personality, his actions, his beliefs, even his humor. He was even given the first name "Ivo" because its pronunciation is supposed to sound like "evil"! So his name is literally "evil" and 99% of what he does on screen in the games is evil - yet that's controversial, disliked by Eggman fans, and it gets fans that actually enjoy it shamed. It's so ironic.

I can't imagine that fans of him enjoy actually consuming the game media much when they don't actually like anything he's doing. And I don't know what they actually want him to do, if not be evil because they want him to become a better person despite everything he does coming from the fact he's evil, his entire character is built around it as the villain. In all the games where he doesn't have an active villainous role, he's just sat there doing nothing. If he somehow stopped being the villain after 30 years then he'd barely be used as a character anymore. I don't think that's worth occasional scenes of nice pure wholesome Eggman for people to coo at.

All of the things that make Eggman so charming, entertaining, and lovable all stem from his evil and it's involved and evident in every aspect of his characteristics and actions. He's a very evil and selfish character that will gladly do terrible things to accomplish his just as evil goals in conquering the world, he's motivated solely by that and even finds sadistic enjoyment in it. The way most the games' adventures even begin is by Eggman kicking it off with another evil scheme. It's a very important part of his character at the very core and it's important to the overall plot in most games, nothing would be the same without it, there'd be no conflict and nothing interesting left.

It saddens me that it's something that's so disliked or ignored by fandom but you know people can be when it comes to villains, they don't like it when they're genuinely evil and don't have good redeeming traits so they can have something to be interested in and feel justified in liking them because they don't like his evil and think it's wrong to enjoy it like I do. But I love seeing Eggman being his best true self as a super evil and dangerous threat and all the thrilling badass scenes that come out of it when he's in action and being a real diabolical bastard, which is 99% of the time he's on screen, and I'll always give it the love and appreciation it deserves! 🥰💜💕

#asks #dr eggman #eggman #dr robotnik #dr. eggman #my post #rant

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onewomancitadel · 1 year

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Fandom, platforms, narrative criticism and entertainment, etc.

Based on a post I made last night I think in fandom spaces and media analysis spaces (especially the layperson's end) there has to be, or will be, a distinction made between videos of critiqued rooted in considered narrative analysis of justified length for artistic/critical purposes versus several hour long videos presented as the equivalent of a friend's rant for entertainment purposes.

This is actually in the interest of fairness, because I think harsher criticism of the latter (coherent theory of 'good art', coherent theory of narrative analysis, coherent style of constructive criticism) predicated upon the former, for which it's mistaken for, is actually really unfair. It's not the same thing. The problem of course emerges when it treated like it is, and instead of a friend's opinion, it now predominates the narrative surrounding [x] media. This guy or that guy made a video on it, and it sucked, so I'll regurgitate those same beliefs unreservedly.

I'm not commenting on the parasocial element here - really all it's doing is representing why it's entertaining (listening to a friend's opinion and having discussion with other people about a thing you like is fun!), and why it has unique consequences because of the usual platform the Video Essay or the pithy Tweet happens on, which are platforms where your presence can be larger than life (and there is usually a sense of authority assigned to a YouTuber who makes YouTube videos about a particular set of coherent topics, especially popular media analysis).

Blogs like my own actually intermingle both genres of response - it's not a perfect divide - but I think it's moving towards some workable distinction to clarify why obviously critically untenable and critically unreasonable positions begin to predominate online narratives surrounding art and media. I enjoy listening to people close to me rant about things (for love or hate!) for as long as they like and actively take interest in what they enjoy (it is not universally true that we don't like listening to other peoples' interests even with no self-interest - think of how many people watch videos about media they'll never watch by YouTubers they like).

Is it a distinction between personal taste and an objective value of art...? No, I'm not actually making so grandiose a statement, and I think personal taste incorporates genuine critical consideration, and objective value arguably has value which transcends a work artistically (e.g. culturally!). What I actually mean to define is only the method. What often postures on media analysis on YouTube is often a stand-in for like and dislike - what I think really successful criticism does is appreciates the aims and intentions of a work and judges it by those metrics (regarding film, this is obviously a more Roger Ebert position, and I actually don't know how popular this belief is). On critical and artistic terms I think that is the most tenable, and obviously the beauty of art is its subjectivity!

On the other hand, that subjectivity is in part suppressed by predominating narratives online - especially when it informs interpretation of a work before you've even seen or read it. That's really the origin of my critique, I suppose: what other people say online shouldn't immediately decide your opinion, or present itself as considered analysis, or present the 'correct' interpretation of a work, or create a whole movement of analysis motivated by spiteful, willful hatred, which you then monetise so incentivising your style of 'critique', and keep ruining the fandoms for.

I can definitely see the entertainment value in the video essay style I've scorned before! I think that matters! There are definitely conversations to be had about 'out of touch' modern critics - and it's not like the whole realm of narrative criticism is perfect - but I think talking about evolving platforms of interaction, and the way we express our thoughts matters, and most interestingly in the age of fandom we are in a new movement. Fandom is really opening up - it's not geeky and embarrassing, fandom theories go viral on the Internet, it's more mainstream than ever - to the point that what I would call 'media criticism' online is almost interchangeable with it, and that's why I think the topic is so interesting. What might've once been a forum post is now a YouTube essay - the equivalent of a friend ranting - and with that I think you can see the ecosystem of fandom changing.

There are really interesting (and equally disturbing) examples of this, and of course it might change overnight or equally be changing with TikTok - e.g. I have seen flagrantly bizarre fantheories pick up viral traction (secret parentage theories!), and that is obviously prioritising one set of interpretation (controversy) over another, but that's really beyond the scope of this post. At the very least, you can see how platforms interact with and cultivate fandom, and the way that interacts with criticism, and the way that interacts with our own cultivated beliefs, and the ever-evolving problem of art vs. entertainment vs. inherent value.

I'm not sure if I've come up with something wholly definite, but at the end of the day all I really want to do is give whomever is reading this something to think about, especially on the authority of narrative analysis, and figuring out your own interpretation.

#stirring the pot

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synfell · 11 months

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i cannot believe i got invested in a franchise i hate so much. ugh. i'm drawing fanart of the stupid little main characters. i'm relating to a blorbo.

the worst thing ever is it's a. very popular notorious satire series known for being offensive. not to be an apologist, but i think it's misunderstood a bit. it's like a joker situation, you know? it got picked up by the wrong people and is now widely misinterpreted.

it's satire. even though they have horrible characters, it's a comedy, and you're supposed to laugh at how horrible some of the characters are because they usually get punished for what they did. we laugh at the sexist characters because it's stupid to be sexist, etc.

i hate the fandom for it. it's either a bunch of conservative white guys who misinterpreted the message, or a bunch of 14-yr-olds who laugh at it for the wrong reasons.

okay, and i got really attached to this one character. he's such a sweet little guy who always gets manipulated and stuck in bad situations because he literally doesn't know any better. and not to read too in-depth into some american satire cartoon but he really represents the innocence of childhood and how easily it can be corrupted.

and i cry over him because!! this kid gets made fun of, and he sees so much sex and gore, and he's just a little kid!! he's abused in all forms by everyone around him and he doesn't even realize it because he loves them so much!! and he doesn't know it, but that will haunt him for the rest of his life!! if this show was serious and had real consequences, of course. and it hurts because it's too real! that all happened to me!!!

this is a TV show. it's a cartoon, it's satire, it's a comedy, but it gets a little too realistic at times and i'm beginning to think i can't handle it because it can be genuinely triggering for me.

this is shit that happens all the time in real life and no one ever talks about it! part of me is like, "at least somebody talks about it," but the other part of me is horrified and disappointed that it has to be made fun of for anyone to tolerate it. if this were a serious show, it'd be taken off the air for being too dark and depressing.

i guess i can see why people hate it, but if they thought deeper about it, maybe... i don't know. i'm just conflicted because i know a lot of people hate this show and have it in their DNIs, and i don't know if i should be more open about liking it. yeah, i interpret it in a more "morally/politically correct" sense, but how is anyone else supposed to know that. i don't want to make a disclaimer about how i don't condone the jokes a certain character makes every time i talk about the show.

#long post #cw ???#cw mentions of bad things but not in-depth enough to warrant a proper label #uhhh mentions of a certain show everyone hates but i won't name it here #og

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rantrambles · 3 years

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Ever get so upset you make a Tumblr account to vent?

I haven’t even listened to The Penumbra Podcast yet but it’s on my list because it’s insanely popular and the cosplays I’ve seen are hot as hell (A+ to all the cosplayers I’ve seen you’ve done great work). Now, with the recent news surrounding the podcast, I’ll wait till it’s done if I ever do get into it. I’m Asian and part of the LGBT community but I’m not nonbinary so I can’t say much about the trans represention in the art but I wanted to add my two cents on the matter as a person of color and someone examining the situation from the outside. Also, before I get deeply into it, I’m not the only person of color with opinions on this matter so if people have their own frustrations and criticism with the racism in The Penumbra Podcast and/or the new artist they hired, definitely listen to them too. These are my own personal opinions, and I’m sure other people will disagree and that’s fine. We’re all going to have different views on this so bear that in mind. Also, feel free to correct me or add anything if I’ve missed some information. Here’s a great breakdown of the whole situation for those that don’t know what happened. Finally, I was very hesitant to post this, but I felt it was important because I make a statement at the end on how race should be presented in a podcast format so if you are interested in making a podcast and want to have a diverse range of characters, please skip to the end to read those thoughts.

I’ll start off by saying, I’m not even that upset with the new artist that The Penumbra Podcast hired. I know that statement alone is controversial but I don't personally know them, and I’m not going to judge who they are as a person by a few pieces of art they’ve made. They are the least of the problems that I have here. Since the announcement and the backlash, I’ve been scrolling through the artist’s Instagram account and I can tell why people find the designs offensive, but I’m also comparing the designs to the artist’s other work, and I honestly believe that’s just their style. They’ve exaggerated the features of just about every character they’ve made, regardless of race or gender. From what I’ve seen the sharp angles and overly round curves in the anatomy that make some of the character’s features more jarring are how they prefer to draw. I’m sure they’re capable of drawing more realistic proportions but for the most part they’re art aims to call attention, be bold, and create distinguished features. Not inherently a bad thing on its own.

And yeah I’d understand the issue if this were a scenario where the artist heard how these characters acted in the podcast and thought “hey, obviously this character is a black woman because they are super strong and therefore must have big muscles, no other woman could look like that” or “hey, this character has to be Asian because they act super seductive sometimes better draw them as such.” But from my understanding the race was already decided by previous official artists and a general description of the characters were already generated by the audience, similar to how The Magnus Archives leaned towards drawing scrawny Jon with black, greying hair and dark skin. The new artists couldn’t really change those features even if those features aren’t described in canon because a depiction that strayed too far from popular fandom interpretation would make the character’s unrecognizable to the fanbase.

I think the reason this became such a big issue for most people is because the new Penumbra artist used their exaggerated art style when making these characters and people of color and nonbinary folks already see themselves drawn as these exaggerated caricatures all the time (with those images being used to further discriminate against them). I’m sure the artist didn’t mean for their art to be offensive, but that of course doesn’t change how it was received.

According to some, the poses and expressions the artists chose did not fully represent the characters entirely and only served to further perpetuate harmful stereotypes, and I’ll have to take their word for it because I still haven’t listened to the podcast so I have no idea how the characters act. But again much of the criticism is based on the one line-up and doing a deeper dive into the artist’s work I managed to find artwork that was much less offensive. Here some art where Vespa is depicted in a non-violent pose and one where Vespa is in a threatening pose but not an overly violent one. Here is Peter drawn in a non-seductive pose. Hopefully, the artist truly does keep the criticisms in mind as they work on the new official art. I’m just not the type of person that wants to get the pitchforks out and cause this particular person to lose a job they seemed really excited about over their old character line-up, especially when that person is also part of a marginalized group.

Again, that’s just my opinion on that particular artist. Those who are offended by their art are still valid in how they feel, and the artist should absolutely take their criticism to heart to better how they represent the characters.

What I’m more upset about is that I think The Penumbra Podcast should never have released official art for their characters in the first place and that’s their mistake that they refuse to own up about. They have made it clear that the story was never meant to portray characters of colors, a fact emphasized by the fact they hired mostly white actors from the start. They only started releasing art of the characters to get a profit. And the thing is they know what they did was wrong. All I had to do was search Penumbra Podcast racism and there is a note on their website saying that they archived some old official art.

“We have discontinued all Penumbra merchandise that uses the original character designs, and in the meantime, any profits on the sales of that merchandise will go to the For The Gworls project. We also realize that the depiction of these characters as POC, while not appropriate for us to use in our marketing and merchandise, has nonetheless become personally meaningful to many POC listeners. For that reason, and because we do not wish to distance ourselves from our mistake, we are keeping these images on our website for archival purposes. Though we do want to make it clear that many of the main/featured voice actors are white and that we did not write the characters to represent any specific POC experience, you are, as always, free to imagine these characters in any way that you like.”

I went to their shop and they still sell posters and pins with the character’s faces on them, but they are donating it to a good cause so hopefully that stays the same. However, I still find it a little uncomfortable that they are still selling character merch and have plans to continue selling character merch. They have no right to dissuade the fans that already found representation in the characters, but they also have no right to profit off the representation that was built, regardless if they made the story.

Let’s compare this to another piece of popular media. I love Avatar the Last Airbender and, I liked the ATLA voice actors just fine but there should have been more people of color doing voice acting behind the screen too. The voice actors for that show were mainly white too, however, the creators knew that they would be making poc characters. That’s what makes the difference. Did they still choose to go with mostly white voice actors? Yes. Could they have done better and pay more people of color? Also yes. But I’m not as furious at them because they did their research on the cultures they were basing the ATLA world off of and intentionally gave us a show where Asians could see characters that looked like them represented on the screen. The Penumbra Podcast did not do any of that. Again, they openly admitted that it was never their intention to make the character’s people of color when they made the podcast so that goes to show no research was made to properly represent specific cultures. The color of the character’s skin in their official designs therefore became more of aesthetic choice rather than representation, and it wasn’t even their aesthetic choice to begin with!

Race isn’t a color you can just throw onto the character because you feel like it. So I want this to be a lesson to anyone that wants to make a podcast: if you want to include poc characters please do some research into the cultures you plan to represent the way you would with any other form of media. Just because the audience can’t see the characters and just because it’s harder to smoothly introduce the character’s appearance doesn’t mean you’re allowed to be lazy on how you present the characters. Do research before you start writing the first episode and take the time to hire poc actors. Hiring poc actors is actually the least that can be done to show representation. Also, since the audience cannot visually see the race of the characters on a podcast and it can’t typically be described the way you would in a book, you’ll have to be creative. It’s not my job to say how, but my suggestions would be, before the fans come up with their own image of the character, you need to establish race in the first few episodes or release character profiles on a website so that the fans know you canonically intended the characters to be of a certain race even if you aren’t able to mention it in the actual podcast. If you are unwilling to do any of these then the best route is to avoid stating race at all and allow the audience to build their own representation into your form of media. However, once this happens, you are not allowed to profit off popular fan interpretations. You lose all rights to create official art or images of the characters. You cannot use “we have a diverse cast of characters” when you market your story. It doesn’t matter whether you created the content or not, you did not create the representation for those minority groups.

It’s one thing for fans to build their own inclusivity into a form of art like a podcast, but it’s another thing for the creators who never worked to make the representation happen to take advantage of the representation that the listeners built for themselves. Thank you for attending my TedTalk.

#the penumbra podcast #podcast #race #the magnus archives #diversity in podcasts #diversity #tpp #tpp fanart

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bigbadredpanda · 3 years

Note

Helloo, would it be a possible interpretation that the ideals and mindset that wwx follows is close to the religion and practice of Taoism?

Hello! That’s a fascinating question and I wish I had more knowledge to delve deeper on the subject but I’m a bit more familiar with the philosophy/spirituality part of Taoism than with its religious practices and rites. As always, anyone is welcome to add to the discussion or correct me if I misconstrue something, this is a vast topic and I’m just an interested layperson!

Xianxia in itself is a literary genre rife with references to Taoism: the pursuit of immortality, the internal alchemy to form a golden core, the Taoist exorcisms to drive out evil spirits, Taoist incantations and talismans, etc... But that does not necessarily make cultivators Taoists.

At the heart of Taoism is the philosophy of espousing harmony with nature, with the self, with the Tao. It’s about simplicity, spontaneity, non-attachment to worldly desires. In the introduction of my copy of the Zhuangzi (庄子), one of the main Taoist texts, the translator chooses the hero Yu the Great to epitomise the “going with the flow instead of fighting against the current” attitude dear to Taoists. Yu the Great is a legendary figure whose father, Kun, was tasked by the emperor Shun to protect the country from floods. Kun built barrages and dykes that held momentarily the waters in check but they ended up bursting, causing a flood even more devastating. The emperor banished Kun and entrusted the son, Yu the Great, with the same mission. Yu the Great succeeded by digging canals to help the course of water and let it flow to the sea. Yu the Great is referenced several times in the Zhuangzi and, interestingly, Wei Wuxian himself takes him as a model when he challenges Lan Qiren in the classroom and sows the seeds of what would become the foundation of his demonic cultivation:

魏无羡道：“横竖有些东西度化无用，何不加以利用？大禹治水亦知，堵为下策，疏为上策。镇压即为堵，岂非下策……”

Wei Wuxian said, “Anyway, there are some things that cannot be liberated so why not make use of them? Yu the Great who controlled the waters knew that building barrages to block was ineffective and dredging canals to reroute was the superior method. Suppression counts as blocking, wouldn’t is also be considered ineffective...” (ch.14)

The carefree and unfettered part of Wei Wuxian’s nature does fit Taoist ideals, you even have the opposition of the more Confucian-oriented Gusu Lan Sect and its rigid abidance with rules and ethics. However, Wei Wuxian is at odds with a key concept of Taoism: the principle of non-action (无为 wuwei). It’s not passivity or laziness, it’s letting nature runs its course, letting things fall into place. Wei Wuxian is very much shown to be assertive, even wilful, when his mind and heart are set on one thing. He does not hesitate to take matters into his own hands and jump into action. That’s especially true of his younger self who would rebel instead of do nothing, his older and wiser self after he is reborn is a bit more circumspect and knows when to speak out and when to hold his peace. Non-action is seen as the guiding principle of an ideal ruler, without the interference of government meddling, the state would (hypothetically) flourish on its own. I’ve seen some good meta on both the Chinese and the English-speaking sides of the fandom that makes good arguments that it’s actually Lan Xichen who personifies best this concept (x). Speaking of other characters from MDZS that parallel Taoist parables, Nie Huaisang reminds of the good-for-nothing tree which is praised by Zhuangzi. Because it bears no fruit, no one tore its branches to strip the fruits from them, because its wood is of poor quality, no carpenters cut it down. It is left alone and it is able to live long.

The Tao Te Ching (道德经, Daodejing) expounds three basic virtues called the Three Treasures (三宝): compassion (慈), frugality (俭) and humility (不敢为天下先, lit. ‘daring not to put oneself before others’ or ‘daring not to be first in the world’). The first two are for sure among Wei Wuxian’s qualities but the last one is more contentious, not because he is arrogant or boastful but because he dares setting himself apart. The following analysis in from a commentary of the Taoist text:

The third treasure, daring not be at the world's front, is the Taoist way to avoid premature death. To be at the world's front is to expose oneself, to render oneself vulnerable to the world's destructive forces, while to remain behind and to be humble is to allow oneself time to fully ripen and bear fruit. This is a treasure whose secret spring is the fear of losing one's life before one's time. This fear of death, out of a love for life, is indeed the key to Taoist wisdom. (Ellen M. Chen)

Wei Wuxian did not hesitate to ‘expose himself’ by being willing to be the first practitioner of demonic cultivation and in the end his downfall was at the hands of ‘the world’s destructive forces’, warmongering rumours and bloodthirsty hostility. Wei Wuxian is also not subject to fear of death, there are a few quotes that exemplify his carefree, devil-may-care mindset:

使我徒有身后名不如即时一杯酒。

Better have a cup of wine here and now rather than leave behind a posthumous good name. (ch.75 & Wei Wuxian’s CQL character song Qu Jin Chen Qing)

The quotation above comes from A New Account of the Tales of the World (世说新语), a collection of various anecdotes that was compiled in the 5th century, fittingly it’s from the “The Free and Unrestrained” (任诞) section.

生前哪管身后事，浪得几日是几日。

Why care about what happens after death while one is alive? Better live life to the utmost while one can. (ch.16)

I’m not sure if this one is a literary citation or not as I haven’t been able to track down a quote with this exact wording but it was very reminiscent to me to a chapter of the Liezi (列子), another Taoist text, attributes the following thoughts to the hedonist philosopher Yang Zhu:

One hundred years is the limit of a long life. Not one in a thousand ever attains it. Suppose there is one such person. Infancy and feeble old age take almost half of his time. Rest during sleep at night and what is wasted during the waking hours in the daytime take almost half of that. Pain and sickness, sorrow and suffering, death (of relatives) and worry and fear take almost half of the rest. In the ten and some years that is left, I reckon, there is not one moment in which we can be happy, at ease without worry. This being the case, what is life for? What pleasure is there? For beauty and abundance, that is all. For music and sex, that is all. But the desire for beauty and abundance cannot always be satisfied, and music and sex cannot always be enjoyed. Besides, we are prohibited by punishment and exhorted by rewards, pushed by fame and checked by law. We busily strive for the empty praise which is only temporary, and seek extra glory that would come after death. Being alone ourselves, we pay great care to what our ears hear and what our eyes see, and are much concerned with what is right or wrong for our bodies and minds. Thus we lose the great happiness of the present and cannot give ourselves free rein for a single moment. What is the difference between that and many chains and double prisons?

"Men of great antiquity knew that life meant to be temporarily present and death meant to be temporarily away. Therefore they acted as they pleased and did not turn away from what they naturally desired. They would not give up what could amuse their own persons at the time. Therefore they were not exhorted by fame. They roamed as their nature directed and would not be at odds with anything. They did not care for a name after death and therefore punishment never touched them. They took no heed of fame, being ahead or being behind, or the span of life."

The myriad creatures are different in life but the same in death. In life they may be worthy or stupid, honorable or humble. This is where they differ. In death they all stink, rot, disintegrate, and disappear. This is where they are the same. [...] The man of virtue and the sage die; the wicked and the stupid also die. In life they were Yao and Shun [sage-emperors]; in death they are rotten bones. In life they were Jie and Zhou [wicked kings]; in death they are rotten bones. Thus they all became rotten bones just the same. Who knows their difference? Let us enjoy our present life. Why should we worry about what comes after death?” (A Source Book in Chinese Philosophy, trans. Wing-tsit Chan)

It’s quite a long extract so I highlighted the most relevant parts that echo Wei Wuxian’s ideas and in particular his motto in life:

是非在己，毁誉由人，得失不论。

Right and wrong are decided by oneself, praise and condemnation depend on others, gains and losses are insignificant. (ch.75)

This is for me the defining quote of the novel that encapsulates the overarching theme of the story. This sentence is so popular that it’s the go-to quote on Wei Wuxian-related merch and it also features on the cover of the book in simplified Chinese.

We find in the Yang Zhu chapter of the Liezi the same ‘carpe diem’ attitude, the nonchalance about death, the disregard of social conventions and the futility of reputation. Nevertheless, Yang Zhu does not exactly have a place with other Taoist thinkers as he promotes acting in self-interest, a form of ethical egotism that does not take heed of other people’s benefit. The translator from the extract above calls it ‘negative Taoism’. As we are well aware, Wei Wuxian has a much more benevolent and altruistic outlook:

我娘说过的，你要记着别人对你的好，不要去记你对别人的好。人心里不要装那么多东西，这样才会快活自在。

My mom said that you should remember the kindness you received from others and not the kindness you gave. That's the only way to find happiness and be free as the heart can only carry so much. (ch.113)

Wei Wuxian’s life philosophy is about remembering the good you've been granted and keep giving without expecting anything in return. If you let yourself to be fettered by bad memories, if you dwell on the past, negative feelings like anger and envy will take roots in your heart. It takes great courage and integrity to be able to move on from painful experiences without holding grudges and retain the ability to greet the future with a smile.

These themes remind me of the lyrics of the song Enlightenment (悟) from the film Shaolin,《新少林寺》, it’s a moving song that draws a lot from Buddhist influences:

为何君视而不见规矩定方圆

Why do you look without seeing and let conventions decide the rules?

悟性悟觉悟空心甘情愿

I open my heart, coming to my senses and awakening to emptiness

放下颠倒梦想放下云烟

Let go of your confused dreams, let go of the things fleeting like mist

放下空欲色放下悬念

Let go of idleness, desire, pleasure, let go of the trouble weighting your heart

多一物却添了太多危险

One thing more adds too much danger

少一物贪嗔痴会少一点

One thing less and vices will be alleviated [lit. ‘greed, aversion, delusion’, the Three Poisons in Buddhism]

唯有心无挂碍成就大愿

Only with a heart without worries can your wishes be accomplished

唯有心无故妙不可言

There is no greater marvel than an unburdened heart

This ended up to be such a long-winded and maybe inconclusive answer but to me, Taoism, Buddhism and Confucianism, have all deeply shaped Chinese customs, ideas and culture with sometimes no clear boundaries where one begins and the other ends. Wei Wuxian’s ideals, his free-spiritedness and his probity, are reflected in these different schools of thoughts and spiritual currents but there is not a single all-encompassing one that matches him to a tee. In the end, what perhaps defines him best is his name that befits his nature, Wei Ying, the guileless innocence of a child, someone who can cheerfully go through life with a clear conscience and an unburdened heart.

#mo dao zu shi #cultural notes #philosophy #wei wuxian #majesticshayshay #i'm unable to quote anything from buddhist scripture but this is very good song #一世随缘，随缘一世，才能活得自在 #mdzs meta

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gatesofember · 3 years

Note

can you expand on the canon and fanon ableism in solangelo? I sort of picked up on the infantilisation of nico (hes dealing with ptsd and i guess chronic fatigue, hes not a baby) but i always thought that was handled better in canon than in fanon? But then i havent read ToN i admit

Sure! I don’t know that I’m the best person to ask this because while I am disabled, I’m still unlearning a lot of ableism myself. But I’ll try my best to explain! Maybe some people could recommend some good posts about this if they know any?

Infantilizing—like you mentioned, this is one of the biggest problems with ableism in the fandom. There isn’t much of this in canon, but in fanon Nico’s often characterized as helpless and he’s not taken seriously. Will often plays the role of caretaker rather than boyfriend to an infantilized Nico, which creates an inherent and unhealthy power imbalance.

Will being portrayed as a savior—a common and dangerous trope in romance is that one character is saved by the love of another. It’s especially damaging when the character being saved has mental health problems or physical disabilities. I think most people realize nowadays that this isn’t okay, but you’ll still occasionally see things that portray Will as a savior. Nico entering a relationship because he’s healing and accepting himself is great! But Nico being saved by a relationship? Bad.

Victim blaming—honestly most characters who interact with Nico in canon engage in some level of victim blaming, but by far the worst one was Will (aside from like. Hades and Minos.) In BoO, Will went on an entire rant telling Nico that he was responsible for his own problems and that he manufactured his own abandonment by pushing people away, when really, Nico was the victim of bullying, rejection, abuse, and serious mental health problems—and he already blamed himself for all that so Will’s rant only would have made him feel more invalidated. Later books definitely pulled back on the victim blaming, but it was such a prevalent part of the foundation of their relationship that it’s been ingrained in the ship. It shows a severe and dangerous misunderstanding of mental health on the part of both Riordan and the fandom.

Will being Nico’s healthcare provider—What makes Will being portrayed as a savior even worse is the fact that Will is a healer. Doctors shouldn’t date their patients. Much like the caretaker issue I mentioned above, it creates a power imbalance which is usually satisfied because the doctor is paid for doing their job, but things get messy when any kind of personal relationship is involved. Will should not be in charge of Nico’s medical care. Of course he can act as Nico’s healer in emergencies, but Nico’s primary medical care provider should be someone else. If Will acts as Nico’s medical care provider out of necessity (eg, because he’s the only healer at camp halfblood), then they need to set up clear boundaries and rules. Will being Nico’s doctor should never be spun as a good thing.

Will abusing his authority as a medical care provider—most notably the “doctor’s orders” and “doctor’s note” scenes. Will was extremely overbearing in BoO, from forbidding Nico from using his powers to ordering him to stay in the infirmary, and that kind of pushiness isn’t okay. He was abusing his power, doubting Nico’s judgement and capabilities, and denying Nico’s right to make his own decisions (again, infantilizing). Disabled people’s agency is often denied and autonomy is so important. Nico should have been allowed to make the choice to stay in the infirmary on his own (or not to stay, or to follow through with his plan to leave chb; he should have had the freedom to make those choices, too), and frankly, it would have been a much more powerful ending to Nico’s pov if he had. He should have chosen to go to the infirmary because he decided he wanted to get better, not because he wanted to be around Will (see previous point about Will being portrayed as a savior) (although it would have been fine if Nico thought of Will as an added bonus). I said in the previous post that Will writing a doctor’s note to allow Nico to sit at the Apollo table doesn’t bother me, but that’s because I imagine that situation being like, Nico was denied accommodations so Will and Nico hatched a plan together to use what little leverage they have to get adults to listen to Nico’s needs and take him seriously, but both of them fully understood that Will should not act as Nico’s doctor again unless there were serious medical reasons. Other people interpret that scene as Will abusing his power as the head medic to sit next to his boyfriend. And I’m not saying that my interpretation of that scene is necessarily the correct one, just that I don’t interpret it as Will being ableist.

Nico faking his disability to get things—I don’t think I’ve ever seen someone bring this point up, but it’s something that really bothers me. The ableism regarding the “doctor’s note” for me isn’t the scene itself, but when the fandom portrays Will and Nico constantly using the doctor’s note excuse to get what they want, often having Nico fake some sort of symptom. Besides the abuse of power I mentioned before, promoting the idea that disabled people fake disabilities to get certain privileges is not okay. This is the sort of thinking that leads to stereotyping disabled people as lazy and it’s so prevalent that it makes a lot of disabled people wonder if they’re really disabled or if they’re making it all up (which ties in with the victim blaming point again).

Sometimes I agree that canon Solanagelo is less ableist than fanon, but sometimes fans do a better job than Riordan. It really just depends. I definitely think that both Riordan and the fandom have gotten better though! Will’s character and his relationship with Nico was very different in ToN than it was in previous books (different for the better but also to the point of inconsistency, but that’s a different critique). There were a lot of things in ToN that made it clear that Riordan was listening to the responses of disabled people. Some fans seem to be listening, too. There’s still rampant ableism in the fandom, but people are getting better at responding to criticism and realizing that a lot of tropes that used to be popular just aren’t ok.

Thank you for your ask! I’m glad you reached out to learn more. Again, if anyone knows good posts to read or blogs to visit for further information, please reply with them!

#anon #tw ableism #ableism tw

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protectchara201x · 3 years

Text

(ignoring all the other juicy Deltarune 2 stuff to shove Chara Talks into it lololol)

I haven’t been super active on this blog because frankly I have like, three? looong analysis/theorycrafting posts I’ve been putting off working on and it fills me with shame to log in and see them waiting in my drafts.

But.

With the release of Deltarune Chapter 2, I wanted to talk kinda in general about how I thought it could impact the fandom’s perception of Everybody’s Favorite Demon Baby, and also point out something in specific about the Weird Route that might connect back to Undertale.

Putting it under the cut to avoid spoilers and long-winded ramblings for the unwilling. Includes spoilers for the Weird Route.

(NOTE: may update later if I notice more things for to put in section II. I’d like to make a full list of parallels if I can tidy them up.)

I. Pre- vs Post-Release Thoughts (you can skip down to II if you don’t care, it is genuinely Long and Pointless)

Okay, so first off. I got SO worried like, the day before the new chapter dropped? It hit me that whatever new stuff we got out of this, people would connect back to Undertale, and. Honestly, I really do hate connecting everything back to Chara, because I do think of Kris as their own character and I really like them and don’t want to ignore everything they got going on. But, I am first and foremost a shameless Chara stan and they’re very important to me, so I kinda... did spend a few minutes reeling from all the new DR stuff as its own stuff, and then immediately started thinking about how this would reflect back on Chara in Undertale lol.

But that’s ok for me to do here because this is my All Chara, Only Chara, All The Time blog, so I am gonna only really talk about Deltarune here to talk about them lol.

So yeah, I started getting anxious beforehand worrying about how everyone would take any and all implications and apply it to mean “aha, Chara IS evil!” The fakeout with the pie reveal in the anniversary stream was a big relief, but I still got worried leading up to the release about what could be in it.

Because part of why I’ve always thought that “Chara was genuinely evil from the start” and even “ok maybe not TOTALLY evil, but Chara was still a kinda bad person” were unlikely was, even if you throw out all the other popular Chara-sympathetic theories. To me, both these takes just seemed too below TF’s talent and the way he wrote all his other characters with depth and love; a Chara like the one these theories propose just doesn’t belong in a world created by TF, and the way the Dreemurrs talk about them overall, the way TF made a point of having Chara say they were guided and repeatedly, correctly blame you the player for the destruction in Kill-All, I was sure that he never intended them to ever be as bad as the fandom sometimes tried to make them out to be.

... Like, mostly sure. Like, 80% sure? Because he never ever talks about them, so it’s impossible say for sure, and it is still theoretically possible that “Chara was and is bad” was the cold-ass take he’d intended all along. So yeah, leading up to the release, I started getting antsy that whatever new lore came out of it, either he’d directly confirm “Chara was a villain?” “*cocks gun* Always has been” or there’d be something that’d at least heavily implicate them, or could be twisted to implicate them, as a negative force. More ammo to be used against them in the Chara Debate Circles would be a drag, and outright confirmation of them as a villain would honestly break my heart and I’d be forced to disown Toby Fox, My Beloved Cool Dad.

And, right now? Tell the truth, I’m SO relieved and I am SO happy. And not just because of how much depth and characterization it seems Kris is getting! (imo, because rn I just headcanon them as an unhappy teen desperately trying to keep their new friends going on adventures with them and trying to fight back against the player’s control)

I love how this chapter seems to be TF doing course-correcting based on fandom interpretations. Because Kris just isn’t evil, even if they are a knife teen, even if they are the Knight, they’re just NOT evil and that’s canon, baybeeee; it’s made clear in this chapter and the previous one that they love their family even outside of the player’s control, they care about their new friends even outside of the player’s control, they’re established as a weird creepy kid but no one sees them as scary or evil, they’re just Kris, and even in the Weird Route, TF made a point of hammering in the differences between Kris and the player in the Weird Route: Susie and Ralsei notice how distressed Kris seemed after you have Noelle ice Berdly, Noelle heard a voice that she said wasn’t Kris telling her to kill, and the FUCKING Spamton fight: “Kris called for help... but nobody came” again and again, and then “You whispered Noelle’s name”... you, not Kris.

I know TF has never commented much on fans’ perceptions of Frisk and Chara, or who exactly is pulling strings in different routes. But after all this, and especially after seeing all the little winks and nods to fandom jokes in this chapter (what comes to mind: pulling everyone’s leg by seeming to have Kris attack Toriel with a knife only to reveal that pie theory was right, Susie not liking Ralsei’s real face as much as his shadowed one, Ralsei with a gun getting referenced with the ad, Kris getting a joke fixation with knives after the fans made Chara and Kris have knife obsessions as a joke), and seeing what looks like him try to correct some things (what stuck out to me was doubling down on showing that Kris is loved and valued in their family: lots of fans came away from Chapter 1 thinking that Kris was not valued as much as Asriel, but here we see that Toriel is supportive of Kris’ friendship with Susie, and it’s stated that Asriel is the one who used the crappy controller, not Kris) -

I think while he hasn’t commented directly, while he admitted to being overwhelmed by Undertale’s success, while he tends to be pretty tight-lipped about the lore (whether that’s because it’ll be addressed by future chapters or because he prefers to let fans sleuth it out), this chapter convinced me that Toby does keep tabs on fan reactions in Deltarune, so he probably does with Undertale too and would know about all The Discourse surrounding Little Mx Pink Cheeks (and in turn, popular theories like Narrator Chara... Toby if you integrate Narrator Chara into Deltarune being a borderline creepypasta and have the narrator start talking directly to the characters or to the player or the characters start talking to the narrator I will lose my damn B E A N S).

(Kris and Chara not being demonized and the narrator interacting directly with the characters were the only two things on my wishlist going in, I was fine with literally anything else happening lmao)

I even kinda think he’s going out of his way to separate Kris and the player because we didn’t get it before with Undertale, we still insisted that Frisk or Chara was the one doing it, and he’s even using Kris to show that even if this kid can be scary, maybe even mean, and maybe they’re even the Knight (with their reasons unknown), they’re still not a bad kid, they’re still funny and likable, and they still genuinely love their family and friends - which falls in line with Undertale’s cast of complex but likable people who can be antagonists and make mistakes but still aren’t truly bad people, and imo is a direct response to some people fixating on the idea that Chara was always evil because they seem scary/complicated.

... Which is a long way to say that I came out of Deltarune with my confidence fully restored about TF’s intentions with Chara and Kris. Even if he never comments on Chara directly, now I really don’t think TF thinks they’re evil or ever intended for them to be. Deltarune convinced me more than ever that Chara is meant to be complex, yes, and able to be influenced to do horrible things, but they were never intended to be as malicious or shallow as some fans insist.

TLDR:

Toby Fox read your mean fanfiction where Chara is a bad abusive serial killer no one likes, and he made Deltarune in revenge.

... Hm? Ah, you’d like me to get to the point! Right this way!

II. Undertale, Deltarune, and The Point

While no doubt some will still take the voice Noelle hears to be Chara influencing her to turn her into a murderer (I haven’t gone looking for it yet, but I’m sure it’s already a thing because I know this fandom), since it’s made too clear by the game that they can’t blame Kris for this one, I think at this point that’s just being too stubborn to consider other ideas.

If you believe in the totally made up idea used in so many fanfics that Chara is an evil spirit trying to whisper in Frisk’s ear to kill everyone, literally (for some reason) the embodiment of raising stats, and gets more control over people who have increased LV to take over their body... sure. Could be them, they did talk about moving on to the next world and all. I mean, that wouldn’t really make sense because it’s literally never implied in the actual game that Chara encourages you to kill outside of the Kill-All Run or even wants you to, certainly not as the narrator and we get no hint of them doing this as an unseen, unheard third-party either.

Not to mention they’re NOT literally possessing you because of increased LV; they don’t control you even with high LV in any Undertale route other than arguably the Kill-All, and if you fail the Kill-All and it turns into a high-body count Neutral, Chara suddenly stops using first-person narration and showing up in mirrors entirely even though they were showing themself before, the LV remains the same or even can get raised as high as LV 19, nor do they suddenly take over in any other Neutral runs. We can speculate on why (personally, I’d place this either on Chara’s mindset, such as them sinking into shock from the trauma or becoming more assertive as the player feeds their megalomania, or as a sign of Frisk’s withdrawal, leaving Chara alone in the body to take the reins and act out the player’s orders), but canonically, no, Chara does not take over due to high stats.

In fact, there’s even more evidence against this. First-person narration also exists for fleeing your battles in Undertale, even on Pacifist runs with base stats, 0 EXP, and an LV of 1. Since Chara is established to use first-person narration to refer to themself, is the only one who canonically does so, and is confirmed to be present even in all runs through their name and memories always showing up, it seems pretty likely that Chara can take control to flee battle. That means an increase in stats is not a sign of their presence or control, in Undertale or Deltarune.

The most damning blow to the idea that Chara is the voice corrupting Noelle are the lines in the fight with Spamton I mentioned. Kris called for help, but nobody came. You whispered Noelle’s name. Well hold on. If that’s Chara, shouldn’t it be “I whispered Noelle’s name”? As soon as you’ve officially started the Kill-All in Undertale, Chara starts up their “It’s me, Chara” schtick right away, right there in Toriel’s home in the first area, and if they weren’t the narrator before, they’re beginning to speak through the narration now. If the voice was Chara, surely Toby Fox knows it’d be a way bigger “oh shit” moment if the creepy scary hidden route once again switched into first-person, scaring us the same way he did before when we first saw “It’s me, Chara” and knew something was wrong; unfairly or not, their reputation as a villain is still well established and hinting to Chara’s presence with a simple “I” would drive the menace even further, if he intended for them to simply be a demon that possesses player characters when you grind enough. But it’s still just you. The player.

The Weird Route does even more to help Chara’s case than that. Not only is it made pretty clear that Kris and the player are separate, and the player is the one responsible for corrupting Noelle and making her kill... consider how similar Noelle and Chara are, in the Weird Route and the Kill-All Route.

This “voice” that “guides” them in growing strong, compelling them to kill everyone in order to fight for them, eventually driving them to murder people they know. Chara calls themself “the demon that comes when people call its name”, and you whisper Noelle’s name to have her appear to kill Spamton. Noelle’s conflicting emotions towards Kris and the voice as she is manipulated, as she becomes more violent and sadistic, as she goes into shock; does that not sound like Chara, who flipflops between holding you dear as their partner and wanting to move on to the next world together, to be together forever, and them being disgusted by your refusal to accept consequences and the perverse enjoyment you get in killing everyone again and again? Chara, who clings to their quirky narration for much of the Kill-All, but keeps slipping up, who becomes terrifyingly cold, aggressive, power-hungry, and even sadistic, yet still calls Undyne “the heroine”, still seems to still care about their locket, still has moments where they seem to falter?

Noelle does put up significantly more resistance to the voice’s commands than Chara does, and at least much more visibly shows distress and trauma. I don’t think this is a black mark on Chara’s chara-cter either, or an indication of them being more violent or cruel.

For one, while Noelle is still herself with her own soul, it is heavily implied by Chara, Flowey, and Undertale’s lore that Chara was reincarnated without their own soul, at best perhaps attached to Frisk’s (or yours): as I speculate in one of my currently unfinished theories, while monster souls are made up of love, compassion, and hope and thus Asriel was reincarnated without these qualities, it could well be that human souls are correspondingly made up of their own multiple traits, namely determination, patience, bravery, integrity, perseverance, kindness, and justice; if true, a soulless Chara would be lacking these qualities, which would make them less equipped to resist the player’s commands or to feel as torn up about it.

Also, the player has a hold on them both as “party members” to the player’s vessels, but it is also possible that the player naming Chara and having them directly attached to Frisk also gives them a stronger connection to Chara they can abuse, similar to how Kris and Frisk (as the player’s direct vessels) have much less autonomy than Kris’ party members.

(Fun observation: We know that when the thing controlling Kris forced Noelle into becoming a killer and using her to kill Berdly, Kris was horrified and shaken-up according to Susie and Ralsei. How do you think Frisk felt watching Chara be used to slaughter the Underground and then erasing the world when they’re totally corrupted?)

And lastly... look, Noelle and Chara are both minors, but Chara is significantly younger - a small child compared to Noelle’s teen. I know it’s fiction and strong wills and determination and anime is real and all, but a traumatized young child who died two violent and awful deaths back-to-back, may have literally experienced being a corpse in their own coffin/grave for who knows how long, and then came back ”confused” only to immediately start hearing a voice relentlessly commanding them to kill everyone?? I can absolutely see a traumatized kid shutting down and just going with it out of fear at first, before the LV sets in.

TLDR:

What you do to Noelle in the Weird Route is the same fucking thing you do to Chara in the Kill-All Route.

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tundrainafrica · 3 years

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is it possible to ship levihan but hate hange?

I have been asking this question to myself because god knows how levi doesn't sit right with me, but reading your analysis made me wonder why the fuck did i hate him before. I used to blame him for what happened to hange. yes, maybe i am dumb.

anyways, you're a blessing to this fandom. thank you very much for feeding us.

Thank you for the ask Anon and of course, thank you for your kind words! This made my evening and of course gave me some fuel to rant for the nth time about how much I love these two idiots.

is it possible to ship levihan but hate hange?

No, I actually don’t think so. I think everyone who ships Levihan is an avid Hange stan. I think it requires a minimum amount of love for Hange to actually ship her with Levi.

I mean, given the amount of people who love Levi and his overall role in the story, we have people of course shipping Levi with Erwin and shipping Levi with Eren. To actually like a ship, I generally feel like we all have to like both people in the ship? I mean the whole point of wanting them to be lovey dovey and wanting to explore their dynamic is because we’re fascinated with them as characters right? And why would you read fanfiction and draw fanart of a character you don’t even like.

And I actually thought about this because I do hang around twitter sometimes and I noticed a pattern among Mobuhan shippers… (Correct me if I’m wrong) but what I noticed is that Mobuhan tends to be a secondary pairing for a lot of shippers? Like they would ship Mobuhan specifically because they ship Levi with someone else. Like I did see a lot of twitter profiles had the tendency to scream… AVID ERERI SHIPPER/ AVID ERURI SHIPPER and btw I like Mobuhan.

Levi is an incredibly popular character and he is a top 1 character for a lot of people and if those people are shippers, then of course they’ll ship Levi with someone? I mean, come on give me a shipper who loves Levi and just wants Levi to live alone (or maybe they ship Levi with themselves I dunno). And given the most popular pairings… most of these people probably ship Levi with either Eren or Erwin if not Hange. (Are there other popular Levi ships?) and when they do ship them and they are an avid shipper, sometimes they do have secondary pairings, and sometimes they ship Moblit and Hange by default.

Don’t get me wrong, I find Moblit and Hange an incredibly cute ship. And I think there are a lot of Hange stans who just genuinely like Moblit with Hange.

But the point really I wanted to make is that, one needs to be a Hange stan to actually be on board with the whole idea of Levihan.

And my general understanding behind it is this:

If people hate Hange or ‘they just don’t like her too much,’ they usually see her as some sort of crazy scientist character which is the general interpretation for a lot of casual fans since I have mentioned in previous metas that Hange is chronically criminally misinterpreted and underestimated by fans.

Levi on the other hand is incredibly celebrated by the fandom and we all know that by the amount of ships and the amount of hype he gets. And generally, we get more explicit character exposition overall for Levi than Hange. (Just look at season 3, it’s all Levi exposition) Tbh, he literally gets exposition everytime he shows up, the whole reason why so many people love Levi in the first place.

And compared to other ships, Levihan isn’t generally fetishized. Like sure we do get our fair share of smut fanfiction but a lot of the more popular Levihan fanfiction and posts from what I can see are generally those that celebrate Levi and Hange’s bond more than they fetishize them as a couple. For one, they’re not a male x male couple after all and the male x male couples are generally the ones that get this treatment.

And for people to appreciate the actual non malexmale relationship for Levihan and for people to actually headcanon, write fanfiction, draw fan art and generally want to explore something without the need to fetishize it, they need to have a more in-depth understanding or interpretation overall for Hange’s character which given the state of Hange’s portrayal in canon, requires some emotional investment and some analysis to get into.

Like to be frank, it took some more effort on my end to explore the relationship of Hange and Levi since it was more subtle in canon compared to Eruri. Eruri leading up to season 3 had more explicit portrayals definitely and I completely understand the reason behind shipping Erwin and Levi honestly. (I’m not even against Eruri at all. I do read my fair share of Eruri fics and metas because I love their bond as well.)

Hange on the other hand, although she has her moments, she just generally has this I’ll do my best to stay happy and confident because I'm a commander type of demeanor. And even before she was commander, she did have this happy-go-lucky demeanor and of course, she doesn’ have a backstory so what really is there to explore with Hange’s character right?

We get the ‘I’m tired,’ and in the anime, the scene after Eren attacked her. But Hange’s quick to bounce back. She gets no flashback. She gets no in depth-discussion or explicit proof of her vulnerability and that’s why it’s so easy for people to brush off whatever stuff she goes through.

Like jfc just think 132?? Even when hange was walking to her death, she was literally smiling. She didn’t even have a moment of ‘regret’ unlike Erwin where we had this whole exposition about his regrets and how he would have wanted to see the basement.

All we got from Hange was a ‘that’s that.’ and a ‘please let me go,’ and terrified face hidden behind a smile. And what was the last face they showed before she died? She was smiling. Till the last moment, Hange did not complain, she did not actively show her vulnerability as a character. She never complained. She never talked about her regrets.

The only hint of vulnerability we did get was a ‘let me go.’ then some nervous Hange then her smile that quickly fell for a second.

And which other character rarely explicitly verbalizes their desires? Which character just grins and bears whatever bullshit comes their way? LEVI.

I know I mentioned Levi does get a lot of exposition but if you notice the exposition never comes directly from Levi. Usually it’s from Petra, his squad, Kenny, etc etc. Levi just like Hange never explicitly shows his vulnerability. Hange is just a tad unlucky on the exposition part because no one ever really bothered to say something along the lines of “BY THE WAY HANGE HAS DEPTH” in the actual narrative.

And given that really interesting commonality between Levi and Hange, I just have to point out that their inability or refusal to verbalize their desires is one of the main reasons why they’re two of my favorite characters.

They don’t actively verbalize their desires yet it’s so apparent in their actions and as a stan, I want them to be happy. I want to explore their depth and it just seemed so natural that it’s both of them right? Especially given what had been going on in Season 4. And just look at the fanart? The dynamics of the survey corps post Season 4. If 132 happened, it would have been Hange and Levi living together..

So when people do ask why I ship Levihan for Levi and for Hange? I tend to ask really… who else do I ship them with? It just seemed like the most natural ship to fall into place.

Anyway, I really hope I managed to answer your question. Thank you for the ask again.

#levihan

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merakilyy · 4 years

Text

Lan Qiren is Not a Completely Terrible Parent + Bonus Headcanon

Some disorganized thoughts on Lan Qiren!

A lot of my thoughts on Lan Qiren come from a bilibili article breaking down what it means be be righteous (雅正) in accordance to the Lan Sect’s motto. The article is in Chinese so I’ll just sum up some of the major ideas first:

***

~It fundamentally refutes the idea of Lan Wangji as the “black sheep” in the Lan Sect

~It assumes Cloud Recesses has a highly collective intrasect environment. Children are raised not just by the parents, but by the entire Sect.

~The Elders raised Wangji and saw him grew up and didn’t have the heart to hurt Wangji, even after he escaped with Wei Wuxian into the cave. Western fandom especially tends to see the elders as strict, conservative disciplinarians who are rigid in their beliefs to the point of hypocrisy. This meta refutes that. It’s unreasonable that Wangji, no matter how strong his cultivation, would be able to stand on his own against 33 seasoned cultivators. So, contrary to popular belief, the elders allowed Wangji to injure them so they would not have to harm a child of the Sect.

~Lan Sect rules are not about what is literally written, but the spirit of the rules. This also makes sense given that when you have 4000+ rules, some rules are bound to contradict one another. And, many rules are quite vague. Eg. “sneering for no reason is prohibited.” Where is the line that justifies sneering? There is none because the idea is not “don’t sneer for no reason,” the idea is “don’t be unnecessarily rude.” In many of the rules, there is room for interpretation and it is this process of interpretation that is valued over the literal inscription of the rules.

~Basically, they are not good people because of the rules. They are good people because they are good people. The rules guide them to make good judgement, but good judgement does not comes from following the rules to a T.

~So the function of 雅正 (to be righteous) is internal, not performative.

~It is this internal clarity that makes Gusu Lan “innocent” (the word used is 纯真; 纯/chun = pure, clarity, genuine, practised and 真/zhen = true, real, genuine, clear)

~There is also a long history of Lans being deviant and rebellious. In CQL, there is Lan Yi who invents guqin battle techniques. They are also the only Clan to have been led by a female cultivator. Qingheng-jun clearly went against orthodoxy by marrying a murderer, but still remained in Cloud Recesses. We’re going to set aside consent here because is a total other separate conversation, but his punishment is self-imposed, not enforced by the Sect. So there are a lot of rules, but they aren’t pedantic. There is leeway, as seen in Lan Yi, but only within reason, as demonstrated by Qingheng-jun.

~Like his ancestors, Wangji also deviated from the straightforward path but his sect accepted his unrepentant love for Wei Wuxian in the end.

~In the end, Wangji gets what he wants: to live with Wei Wuxian in Cloud Recess. But he only gets this because the elders and Lan Qiren allow him to.

~To allow Wei Wuxian to exist in Cloud Recesses, the Lan Sect has to be more inclusive than we typically see them as.

~Despite everything, Lan Wangji still wants to return to Cloud Recesses because it is home to him.

~This is also my favourite explanation of Jingyi’s Jingyi-ness. Rather than Wangji (and possibly Xichen) singlehandedly creating a space for Jingyi, that space already existed. Jingyi isn’t as much of a black sheep as people portray him as because you don’t grow into a Jingyi if everyone is constantly yelling at you to follow rules. CQL Jingyi is plenty sassy, even in front of Lan Qiren, and Jingyi isn’t stupid! He was born and raised in Cloud Recesses, he knows when he is pushing several of the rules and he knows that he has the leeway to do so, and that Lan Qiren will not stop him (within reason).

~”Be righteous” is how the Lan motto is translated in English, but it’s….not exactly what it is in Chinese.

~In modern Chinese, it’s 雅正. 雅/ya = elegance, graceful and 正/zheng = positive, correct, straight, just.

~Notice how the two parts of the motto contrast one another. Ya is outward, something that dictates how you act. Zheng is internal, determined by your actions and attitudes. Zheng is the foundation of Ya.

~As a related aside, the literary meaning of 雅正 is slightly different; it means to be correct and honest, and to welcome corrections to one’s shortcomings. The literary 雅 is to be proper。

~The meta ends with this beautiful line: 所谓的“雅正”，家族交出来，体雅是表象，心正才是更本。Now to ruin it in translation: “Each configuration of “righteousness,” as taught by the Sect, is outward physical elegance built on the foundation of a moral heart.”

~TLDR: Rebelliousness is a function of Gusu Lan, not an anomaly.

***

Onto some fun headcanons!

~Lan Qiren has personal issues with Wei Wuxian because of his mother, but he is more horrified by Wei Wuxian because Wei Wuxian has all this potential and then uses it to go down the heretial path?? Blaphemous. All that ability, all that work, only to throw it all away? Wei Wuxian is incredibly competent and Lan Qiren begrudgingly respects that competence. What he can’t stand is Wei Wuxian’s lackadaisical attitude towards his cultivation.

~In novel canon, Lan Qiren accepts Wangji and Wei Wuxian’s marriage. He definitely still has issues with Wei Wuxian for being a mass murderer, a demonic cultivator, for desecrating the dead, etc. Also for his general Wei Wuxian-ness. But Wei Wuxian is nothing is not incredibly competent and Lan Qiren eventually softens towards Wei Wuxian because of that competence. Once Wei Wuxian starts using that competence to be useful to the Sect and not just to be as annoying as possible, he gets Lan Qiren’s approval.

~Secretly, of course. Lan Qiren would qi deviate before saying nice about Wei Wuxian to his face.

~I totally wrote a fic on Lan Qiren publicly defending Wei Wuxian heheh

~Cloud Recesses is only so big and Lan Qiren can’t avoid Wei Wuxian, even if he is never trying to seek him out. Plus, Wei Wuxian has this way of being in the most inconvenient place at the most inconvenient time.

~We all agree Wei Wuxian is a terrible cook. But, is he a bad cook because he adds too much spice, or he is a bad cook because he’s a bad cook? He did manage to cook congee for the ducklings in Yi Cheng without any fatalities. so I’m inclined to believe the former.

~Lan Qiren definitely thinks Wei Wuxian is a terrible cook, especially after hearing about how Wei Wuxian burned a hole in a pot.

~But Wei Wuxian is Wei Wuxian and even if he can’t be trusted with spices (or anything remotely resembling seasoning), he can make plain congee just fine....after some practice

~Lan Qiren eats this congee and it’s a perfectly good congee. Ideal thickness, light taste, no spices, slides down the throat smoothly and pairs perfectly with his dried zhacai (pickled mustard; a super common Chinese side dish). He asks who made the congee, expecting it to be Sizhui. He chokes when he is told Wei Wuxian is the cook.

~Lan Qiren knows how to be a good parent in theory. He’s just terrible at putting it to practice.

~Jingyi’s parents, when he was still a terrible toddler wreaking havoc everywhere, went to Lan Qiren for desperate advice like “why is our child such a terrible Lan???”

~But Jingyi isn’t actually Lan Qiren’s kid so he actually gives good advice. “Give him a toy, he’ll tire himself out for his nap,” “Let him crawl around, just cover sharp objects and table corners,” and “give him a crushed peach as a reward for walking across the room”

~But he doesn’t know how to talk to Xichen or Wangji as family. He loves them both dearly – obviously he raised them, but they’re also good nephews!! Questionable taste in men aside, they are excellent nephews! He just doesn’t know how to talk to them outside of official sect business.

~Especially with Wangji, He kind of did declare Wangji’s husband a heretic, a traitor, was extra hard on Wei Wuxian as a student, Wangji for visiting Wei Wuxian. And there’s that whole discipline whip thing.

~Which, to be fair, did end up saving Wangji’s life. Raising his sword against Sect Elders and one’s own family is an act of treason punishable by execution. But Lan Qiren can’t just execute his own nephew….he has a heart, even if no one believes it

~33 discipline lashes from the discipline whip is very harsh and Lan Qiren won’t pretend otherwise. But he could gamble that Wangji’s core is strong enough to pull him through. Because the odds of a living, resentful Wangji is better than a dead Wangji.

~They never talk about this. There are a lot of things they don’t talk about.

~Even before, Lan Qiren isn’t a bad parent. He just has no idea how to put his ideas of parenting into practice. He knows what a good parent looks like, he just doesn’t know how to be one.

~So he hides behind the rules because the rules can’t go that wrong, right? Right???

~Lan Qiren is lowkey jealous of Wei Wuxian for knowing how to be affectionate. He definitely thinks Wei Wuxian is too open with his emotions, but he is envious that Wei Wuxian and Wangji are open to each other in a way that Lan Qiren never established with either nephew. They are loyal in the filial manner of juniors to their elders, but Lan Qiren isn’t exactly close to his nephews.

~In his ongoing attempt to be a better uncle, he ends up getting advice from Wei Wuxian about emotions.

~It’s not like he can go to anyone else. And, well. That congee was really good.

~Turns out Wei Wuxian can brew the perfect pot of tea, too.

~Offensive. That Wei Wuxian is so competent and the least emotionally repressed person in all of Cloud Recesses.

~Eventually, Lan Qiren begins to understand why Wangji is so attached to Wei Wuxian, even if he still can’t stand to be in the same room as Wei Wuxian for longer than 15 minutes.

~No matter how much he might no longer hate Wei Wuxian, he prefers their interactions in small doses and spaced out.

~But he does learn to bond with Wei Wuxian over cultivation theory. Annoyingly, Wei Wuxian is just too useful to continue to despise.

#mdzs #the untamed #mo dao zu shi #cql #lan qiren #meta meta meta

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