#not looking to start discourse just stating my thoughts

[bug-buzzz]

I don't like when ppl say stuff like "izzy made (insert character, usually ed) evil" like he may have encouraged certain things but other characters are their own people and make their own decisions and chose their own actions, izzy didn't MAKE anyone into anything just like anyone can't make anyone into anything. People have responsibility for their actions. Izzy didnt MAKE Ed kill (or more accurately try to kill) Lucius, or cut off Izzys toe. Ed's actions are his own

#ofmd #our flag means death #izzy hands #izzcourse #but like not really #not looking to start discourse just stating my thoughts

[cedarspiced]

do you believe in transandrophobia?

nah, not really.

i do believe that trans men and transmascs should absolutely be free to discuss our struggles with transphobia as it relates to us, but there is no intersection of societal oppression against men and transphobia, simply because there IS no societal oppression against men. nearly everything that i've seen labelled as being transandrophobia is simply good ol' fashioned Transphobia (Original Flavor).

#not trying to get into The Disk Horse just stating my thoughts on it #i have a lot of thoughts on transandrophobia specifically but i just spent the whole day moving and getting heatstroke so #i'm a little low on spoons lmao #cedar speaks #asks #anon #btw if you try to start an arguement with me on this i'm jusymt gonna hit the block button #i have better things to do than argue with strangers online. like looking at cute images of weasels #discourse #tagged jic

[am-i-the-asshole-official]

AITA for breaking up with my boyfriend suddenly and lying about why?

I (21M) broke up with my boyfriend (18M) a few days ago. It was a painful decision that I already somewhat regret.

We met in uni and have been dating for about 3 months, and our relationship had been going extremely well, but I started to worry about our age gap. I was concerned about it when we first started flirting, but when he confessed to me I was so happy he felt the same way that I forgot about my worries for a little.

I'm VERY chronically online so I'm familiar with age gap discourse, and 18 and 21 seems to be a very grey area. The more I thought about our age gap, the more I looked into peoples' opinions on it online, and these opinions often didn't seem very positive. It made me super nervous about how people might view our relationship and also made me worry that I might be doing something predatory despite my intentions being pure. People in particular seemed to have issues when the girl was older (which I think is fucking weird, but anyway!) I'm a guy, but I'm FTM, only out to my boyfriend, and everyone around me knows me as a girl, so this was pretty worrying.

Our relationship wasn't a public thing - we're both private people and we wanted to date for a few months before going around parading it. But my boyfriend was getting more eager to show us off, which I was happy about before, but all my doomscrolling online had made me worry.

The breaking point for me was a youtuber from my country saying in a video that he found 18 and 21 creepy. Prior to that I'd tried to reassure myself with the idea that while people from like, the USA, might find the age gap weird, people from my own country (England) wouldn't care. But that video destroyed that safety blanket.

I became disgusted with myself and started to see myself as a bad person. I was also worried that when our relationship became more public, people would hate me. I've never had many friends, university is the happiest I've been by a mile in regards to my social life - I didn't want to lose that. Plus, I live at university and can't really move out right now, so I didn't want to be trapped with people who thought I was a creep.

So, after a particularly bad breakdown, I broke up with my boyfriend. I told him that I was struggling to juggle the relationship with my studies and was starting to become tired, and felt it was best for the both of us to end things. It was a believable reason because in general I have very little energy, so he completely bought it - but he was devastated. He kept apologising for not seeing the signs and kept saying he thought things were going so well, and he was right, because they were! I felt awful.

I feel really guilty about what I did, but I was in a state of panic. I don't know whether I did it more to 'cleanse' myself or for the sake of my reputation, I don't even know if the age gap is wrong, I don't even know if people would have reacted badly! I was just scared, but now I feel like a shitty person for what I did. I don't know if the reasoning behind my actions can justify completely blindsiding and lying to my ex like that. I thought I loved him, but maybe I don't if I was willing to do that!

So, tell me honestly, AITA?

#aita #am i the asshole

[catboybiologist]

About to fall asleep ramble time, this has been kicking around in my brain for a bit and I need to get some form of this thought out

I was diagnosed with ADHD and gender dysphoria one day after the other back in August. Extremely stereotypically zillenial of me, I know. Handling both of these has dramatically improved my quality of life. yes yes insert discourse about how much you need to have dysphoria as a diagnosis, it's just a tool for the medical system that's ultimately meaningless, that's not what this is about.

There's one thing that was really, really weird about the experience of getting care for both of these.

Most treatment and public talk of transition and motivations to transition are about misery. How much despair your birth sex gives you and how gender affirming care is the only stopgap against suicide (oftentimes, used as a barrier to entry that it should only be given when it's at the suicidal point). How crushing dysphoria is.

In contrast, most of the public perception of ADHD is this cutesy, "omg look I'm so quirky" kind of thing. People talk of ADHD "superpowers" and how neat it is to have hyperfixations (I'm low key starting to dislike that word, even though it's an accurate description of many things- it's very overused).

My actual experience has been almost exactly the opposite.

I absolutely had gender dysphoria, and still do, and misery associated with being AMAB. But is that what defines my trans experience? No, and in fact, it feels like a more incidental blip in it. My trans experience has mostly been defined by joy, by feeling my mind and body slowly make me more and more content with my default existence day after day. And the exploration of it all! The social roles, the romantic dynamics, the friendship dynamics, even small aesthetics like clothes and makeup, and again, the body and mood changes. It's incredible and it brings me joy so much of the time. That, more than anything, has defined my trans experience.

In contrast.... ADHD has objectively made nearly every aspect of my life more miserable. Working with my therapist and my pysch, as well as feeling what it's like to be properly medicated, have shown me extremely well how much the constant feelings of misery I always seemed to have were caused by ADHD. ADHD means being unable to receive a baseline level of dopamine to function under normal circumstances, so your brain starts looking for any way it can get new sources. And wouldn't ya know it, novel stimuli are a perfect way to do that. Keep in mind that dopamine isn't just "the pleasure molecule" it's a neurotransmitter with a broad range of functions. If you don't have ADHD, or even if you do, I want you to think about how miserable of an existence that is. Your default state is depression and inability to do things. It has been for me for most of my life. Additionally, anxieties creep into your head and distract you far more easily. You're less functional. You can't do simple things most of the time. You're distracted and have anxiety spikes easily. Continuous tasks are hard. And day in, day out... You are miserable. Almost constantly.

Oh also, you're easily addicted to extreme novel stimuli. For me, it was self harm. And when that stopped working... Well, I was in a state of mostly background depression that was only punctuated by spikes of massive, overwhelming anxiety that my brain hooked itself on. At a certain point, I just wanted it to end, by any means necessary.

It's been almost ten years since that day, and at this point I can genuinely say that I'm glad I'm still here.

But it wasn't dysphoria that did that (it contributed a bit, but still wasn't the biggest factor). Or a depressive disorder. Or bipolar. Or whatever the big, more "scary" mental illnesses or neurodivergencies are. They tried to treat me for some of them, and it ended horribly. My symptoms fit mixed presentation ADHD perfectly, including my physiological response to stimulants. They don't fit anything else. I likely don't have any strong comorbidities, unless you count the symptom-level anxiety and depression. ADHD did all of that to me. The "cute and quirky" one.

By the time I got around to a diagnosis, my pysch was astounded that I made it as far as I did with symptoms as severe as mine. Tackling ADHD has removed so much misery from my life, it's indescribable. Adderall has been the only thing that has ever actually gotten rid of my constant anxiety.

It's not fucking cute. Keeping with this being the flip side to my dysphoria, I do try to keep it light most of the time, and I join in on all of the classic "whoopsie doopsie my ADHD" trains and jokes. You don't have to stop making those, hell, they're fun. There are cute and funny parts to having ADHD, and ways it's made my personality what it is. But don't forget that this is also something that makes people genuinely suffer well beyond the "oopsie I'm such a procrastinator!!!" Type thing.

Idk where this thought is going. It's just kind of an observation that's been kicking around in my head for a bit. So uh. Hope it at least generates discussion? Feel free to add your experiences if you think it'll help you. But fuck I need to sleep lol

#trans #adhd #cw self harm #cw suicide

[write-tama]

"hank.. what am i feeling right now?"

˚₊· ͟͟͞͞➳❥ connor anderson (4k800) x officer!reader

sypnosis ; connor is very interested in an officer who just joined the police force. after being told the news that they would be joining the team, connor just had to make an acquaintance with them. anything to hear their voice.

containing ; use of you/yours and they/them pronouns! connor struggling to process emotions. hank being a proud father.

author’s note ; hihi! havent written for connor in SO long so i thought this was a cute little way of them meeting each other. connor is a

04.12.24 | 1.9k words

-ˋˏ✄┈┈┈┈

Everyone knew about the infamous 4k800.

The last most developed and intelligent android produced by Cyberlife.

A machine built to hunt its prey and to always accomplish his mission.

But now?

A confused man sitting at his desk, elbows on the surface as he ran the fourth diagnostic this morning.

Connor was never really taught how to feel his emotions, considering that he was forced to compress them from the moment he was made. If he were to feel any sort of emotion, it was either to the scrap factory for him or a hard lecture from Amanda.

But Amanda was gone, and androids were free to express any emotion they pleased.

It’s been weeks since Markus hit the headlines for his famous android revolution. He worked with the government extensively to pass bills in order to settle android rights for the country. Connor, on the other hand, continued to work with the DPD as a full-on detective under the supervision of Liutenant Hank Anderson. Hank was more than just a coworker, but a father figure to Connor. And that brought Connor joy, an emotion Connor was well aquainted of.

But not the feeling he was experiencing now.

Connor couldn’t get his mind off a certain someone who had joined the team a bit before the revolution. You had joined a week prior, and honestly, you were kind of regretting it. As android and human tensions rose, you were on duty 24/7. Originally, you were supposed to start easy with basic patrol around a part of a city, but because you were so impatient in doing the “big kid stuff” you found yourself frequently in the middle of the android and human discourse. Your shifts nearly lasted twelve hours, and you would be absolutely exhausted.

Things are different now. Sure, there were still some situations between the two sides, but it was definitely peace compared to literal boycotts. You sat at your desk idly scrolling through your past cases, making sure that all the information was correct and accurate. On the other side of your desk was a tablet full of notes you had taken after some cases you had to deal with. What you didn’t notice was the android detective constantly glancing at you, watching your every move to see if maybe, at some point, you would notice him.

A loud groan echoing from the desk in front of Connor made him jump, immediately turning his attention to his lieutenant taking a seat in his chair. “Fucking hell..” Hank sighed. “Fowler does nothing but my bust my balls these days, huh?” Connor stared at his partner with his hands folded in his lap and eyebrows furrowed.

“Is everything okay, Lieutenant?” Connor asked, tilting his head.

“It’s nothing too serious. Fowler just wants me to take the rookie on our next homicide case. He insisted that they would be a perfect addition to the team or whatever.” Hank groaned. “Now I’m responsible for two of you fucks.”

Connor, admittedly, felt his thirium pump racing. You? As part of the team? It was almost like he could overheat and shutdown momentarily right now. “I think they would be a great addition to the team.” Connor stated, biting back from smiling. “They have an excellent track record of solving cases in an orderly and timely manner, has caught every perpretrator with their undercover skills, and had a reputation back in their training classes as one of the top students.” He explained. Hank looked over as he was slouched in his seat with arms folded across his chest.

“Jesus, Connor, you sound like some creep searching up their name on Google.” Hank scoffed, half smiling. Though this caught Connor a little off— was he being creepy? He didn’t want to leave a bad impression on you, especially now that you're about to meet for the first time. His face scrunched up in anxiety, feeling as if he made a mistake. Hank immediately took notice and sat up. “Ah— I was just joking, Connor. I’m sure you have uh.. Good intentions.” Hank reassured, though he never said he was exactly good at it.

Hank looked over to you, seeing that you were preoccupied with work despite the fact you haven’t been on a case in a few days now. Hank looked at Connor. “Well.. Why don’t you introduce yourself to them.” Hank suggested, nodding his head over to you.

Connor immediately jolted his head up, a little wide-eyed to even suggest such. “O-Of course.” Connor stuttered out. Connor never stuttered, and though Hank was in a mood after his exchange with Fowler, he certainly didn’t leave that unnoticed.

“Did you just stutter?” Hank asked, a little amused. “Are you.. Nervous?”

“Of course not, Lieutenant,” Connor replied as steadily as possible. “I am an android.”

“Connor.”

“Yes?” Connor replied, mindlessly.

“You’re a deviant, for fucks sake.”

“Oh.”

Connor, to avoid anymore embarassment from the man he deemed his father figure, swiftly got up and started to approach you. Hank watched in pure amusement, not even wanting to stop the boy from probably embarassing himself even further, but at least Hank had some faith in him. He is Detroit’s best god damn detective.

“Hello, Officer (l/n). My name is Connor. It is nice to meet you.” Connor said, putting his hand out for a shake. You looked up from your computer screen only to be met with the most chocolate eyes you’ve ever had the privilege of being in the prescence of. He smiled politely, but behind that smile he thanked Elijah that androids could not sweat, otherwise you would’ve felt the claminess of his palm.

You took his hand and shook it firmly. “A pleasure to make your aquaintance. My name is (y/n).” You smiled generously, and wow, did Connor felt like his pump couldn’t get any faster.. He cleared his throat before darting his eyes to the unoccupied chair that sat next to your desk.

“May I?” Connor asked, gesturing towards the seat.

“Of course, I’m not doing much anyway.” You nodded. Connor took a seat, and for some reason, he struggled to even maintain his balance as he sat himself down. He nearly had to think about how to fold his hands before placing them firmly on his laps and looking at you. Thankfully, you barely realized any sort of struggle as you looked away to take a swig of your morning coffee.

“So..” you said, clasping your hands. “Am I in trouble or anything?” you joked. Connor immediately shot his head up, worried he had made the wrong impression.

“Oh, no— I—” Before Connor could sputter out an explanation, you tilted your head a little and started laughing.

“Relax! I was just kidding!” You playfully waved off. Connor’s shoulders immediately relaxed as a breath he didn’t even know he was holding back escaped his lips. You looked at him curiously, a smile still resting on your face.

“I’m sorry. Usually, I am not like this.” He said, shaking his head a little in embarassment. He was always on his A game and constantly prepared. Why were you the reason for this disruption. “I.. Uh..” He couldn’t think of anymore to say. Suddenly, he got a message through his LED.

Connor blinked a bit, registering the text message. Hank was at a perfect view watching this unfold. The back of your head was visible but he could see all of Connor’s reactions, who desperately tried to maintain a polite smile.

NEW MESSAGE:

HANK: tell them u think theyre pretty.

“I think you’re very pretty, (y/n).” Connor complimented.

“Oh— ah—” A subtle blush began to form on your cheeks as your eyes widen a little, not expecting a compliment from a handsome android such as Connor. “Why thank you, Connor. I wasn’t expecting that as our first conversation.” You chuckled a little. “You’re not too bad yourself.”

Thirium was rushing through his circuits and to his cheeks. The faintest color of blue appeared dusted on his face. “Thank you.” He maintained a calm, neutral voice. They stared at each other for a minute, sort of registering the sort of corny first conversation the two of you had.

“Ah.. I almost forgot to mention.” Connor snapped back to reality. “I came here to introduce myself sfter I heard that you were joining our team on our next investigation. It’s good to make an aquaintance with our future team member.” Connor smiled politely.

“Why thank you. I am very excited to work with you and Lieutenant Anderson.” You nodded. “Though I will miss working with Gavin and Chris’ team.”

Ah, that’s right. You used to work with Gavin. It almost left a bad taste in Connor’s mouth knowing that Gavin probably spat some awful opinions about him to you. Though from the looks of it, you were enjoying your conversation with him which eased him.

“I promise we will a provide a welcoming and safe space in our team, and of course, to make sure you don’t come into harms way.” Connor assured. Though he was mainly promising this to you personally. God forbids Connor seeing you get hurt.

“Why thank you, Connor.” You said, tilting your head. Connor was rather intriguing to you— an android acting this way around you. His LED constantly switched between yellow and blue as if he was making sure to process every word you uttered. Yet he was so human— he would scratch the back of his neck, fidget with his fingers, and shuffle a bit in his seat. You would think someone as advanced as him would at least be able to have a composure, but he was different. It was something you admired about him.

“(l/n), in my office!” Captain Fowler called from the balcony of his room. You looked over to Connor before sighing.

“Well, boss is calling me. I’ll talk to you afterwards?” You suggested as you stood from your seat.

“Of course.” Connor replied, shielding his excitement. He stood up from his chair as well. “I’d be happy to talk again, (y/n).”

“Likewise.” You winked. With that, you left your desk and headed straight to Fowler’s office. Connor stood shellshocked. Did you just.. Wink at him?! Connor’s eyes slowly drifted to Hank, who was chuckling heartily. He gave Connor an assuring thumbs up as Connor made his way back to their desks.

“You’d be a shit detective if this is how you acted all the time.” Hank snickered. Connor grinned a little before taking a seat back at his desk.

“I know.” Connor sighed, leaning a little back in his chair. He at you through the glass walls, noticing your upright posture and the way you listened intently to Captain Fowler’s words. He looked over to Hank before thinning his lips.

“Lieutenant?” Connor asked.

“What is it, son?”

“What am I.. Feeling right now?” Connor asked, a little lost on how to explain it. “I can only think about them— only envision them when I close my eyes. I get nervous and its like my programming has reduced to 0s and 1s.” He sighed, hell, even a little frustrated that you had this affect on him.

Hank with a wide smile, shook his head and looked at Connor with a knowing stare. Connor looked up, both lost while desperate for an answer and maybe even a cure. Hank sat up and made sure to look at Connor right in the yes.

“Connor,” Hank sighed, grinning. “Son, that feeling your experiencing is called love. And your plastic ass better get used to it.”

-ˋˏ✄┈┈┈┈

thank you so much for reading towards the end ! im sorry if its a little messy-- i quickly had to post this before hanging out w some friends but i just wanted to get this out of the way rq! reblogs, replies, and even likes are so so appreciated <3

#detroit become human #connor detroit become human #connor x reader #connor x you #connor rk800 #connor dbh x reader #dbh connor #dbh rk800 #rk800 x reader #dbh #detroit become human fanfics #hank anderson #connor anderson #4k800 #connor 4k800 x reader #dbh 4k800 #4k800 x reader

[redrocketpanda]

From the person who brought you unhinged JJK S2 fish discourse, please accept my humble new offering: me holding up images whilst screaming ferally at you: did ya see?! did ya see what they did with the colour symbolism in episode 4 and what it Means?! Well dw cause I'm here to serve you a heinously long meta-analysis regardless. This episode has completely undone me and I need to give you a blow by blow account of why

I want to go in depth about the final scene of e4 bc that's really what set the cogs whirring in my mind, but let's start with the following image bc it exemplifies everything, not just in terms of the colour symbolism but of the heartbreaking changing relationship of stsg

Throughout the previous episodes and opening/credits of S2 we have been made to associate the colour blue + lightness with Gojo and the colour red + darkness with Geto. The sparkling blue eyes and stark white hair of Gojo, his Limitless: Blue technique, the white fish, the way he is often shown standing/walking in the light, turned to face Geto versus the black hair + dark eyes of Geto, the black fish, shown standing/walking in the shadows, turned away from Gojo (etc etc)

Yet the final scene of e4 flips this on its head and what this Means is, quite frankly, soul destroying

We join Geto as he walks along a dark, narrow corridor flooded with red light until he reaches heavy doors. He's confronted with his own image, reflecting back at him, before using both hands to prise open the door. When he steps into the bright white light of a high-ceilinged room, his face falls as Gojo emerges like a messianic figure from the applauding crowd, carrying the shrouded corpse of Riko (side note: god I have a lot of thoughts on Gojo as a messianic figure but I'll save that for another time)

Gojo approaches Geto with his head bowed (whereas usually he is always looking up at Geto) and the moment Geto lays eyes on Gojo he knows something is wrong (similarly to Toji earlier in the episode). He barely seems to recognise Gojo and though Gojo's eyes still sparkle with their bright blue infinity, his expression is dull and lifeless. Geto asks disbelievingly in a way that stabs me right through the heart: "Satoru. Is that you?"

At the start of the conversation, the camera pans from Gojo on the left to Geto on the right and is shot from below in a way that emphasises the growing cavernous expanse between them

But it's what happens in the following moments that's really the killer

Gojo states that he fucked up and that everything that has happened is therefore his fault. Geto tells Gojo "let's head back" (I read this both as: let's head back home and as an indication that Geto wants things to go back to how they were). The camera then cuts to Gojo's mouth as he asks flatly - "Suguru, should we kill these guys?" - and then zooms out as he continues - "The way I feel right now, I doubt I'd feel anything about it." The camera zooms out, showing Gojo standing in front of the applauding crowd, holding Riko's body and continues to draw back, making Gojo seem as if he's getting further and further away from Geto, as well as from us, whilst his eyes glow ethereally

I want to do a separate post about what happens with Geto, Gojo + their relationship in episode 5 but I do also want to point out here: this is the scene that Geto experiences invasive flashbacks of in the following ep. It's the moment that he realizes that he's lost Gojo, that Gojo is now fundamentally different in a way that Geto doesn't recognise or understand, that Gojo is far beyond his reach

As Gojo walks past a motionless Geto, away from the light and into the darkness, we cut to Geto's downcast eyes, pupils dilating wildly as though he's in shock/about to cry (this harkens back to the fish, the way that Geto can no longer bear to look at the white fish as it swims past). We are then left with Geto standing in the bright blue-white light telling Gojo that there's "no point" in killing them, whilst Gojo replies in the darkened, red corridor "does there really need to be any point to it?"

Gojo is a broken man, a complete shell of who he once was and this scene demonstrates Gojo's transition as he turns away from Geto. The colour symbolism, though, is present throughout the earlier parts of the episode and beautifully illustrates how we arrive at this exact moment (as well lays the foundations for what comes next)

Let's return to our blue/red colour theory bc there's a lot going on here during this episode!

E4 starts on a banger: we're cruelly given a recap of Toji telling Geto that he killed Gojo and then within the space of about 7 minutes, Geto too has been killed. It's tragic and sad and none of us want to be reminded of it but I'm going to (srysrysry) because hey, check out what's going on. Notice the cool blue tint of Geto's "death" versus the vivid red of Gojo's? (a horrible eg I know but you should've heard my scream when I caught onto it)

And here's another cool example that had me ajdjsksjdk bc ofc I clocked Gojo using his red technique, but look at the blue glow around Geto's hand?! I don't recall seeing it being used for Geto before (correct me if I'm wrong) so it's interesting to see it being used here, plus us seeing Gojo using Red properly for the first time

Let's just pause here for a moment bc this is a hugely important moment for Gojo's character arc and the fight with Toji gives us an incredible colour theory moment

In the previous episodes, we've seen Gojo being able to easily use his Limitless Blue technique but remember how, in E2 Gojo tried to use Red and hilariously fucks it up announcing "I failed" and resorts to punching the bad guy instead? It isn't until this episode, after Gojo has used reverse cursed technique whilst on the verge of death to heal himself (idk if heal is the right word) that he is able to learn to use Cursed Technique Reversal: Red

We have this really beautiful animation sequence during Gojo's fight with Toji. A blue and a red droplet swirl around each other and then splash together to reveal a swirling rotation of blue and red rippling water. The colours converge, red droplet slipping into blue water, blue droplet into red. The droplets come together to form the shining purple infinity plucked between Gojo's fingers, granting him the "Hollow Purple" technique that allows him to blow a hole through Toji.

Gojo explains:

"Reverse cursed technique uses negative energy. While it can enhance the body, it can't regenerate it. Multiply that negative energy against itself to create positive energy... Take the amplified and the reversal, then smash together those two different expressions of infinity to create and push out imaginary mass."

Gojo + Geto, amplified + reversal = two different expressions of infinity -> create / push out

Toji "killing" Gojo was the moment that set Gojo on a different path, which allowed him to evolve beyond belief and causes him to ascend to, what he believes is, divinity. He takes the basics of Blue and Red (primary colours; Gojo and Geto) and mixes them together to create something new, something transcendent, something that surpasses who he (and Geto) were before. He becomes an unstoppable power that far surpasses everyone else, and this is what Geto recognizes: that Gojo has evolved without him (which we know from E5 has huge consequences for Geto's thinking)

And so now, finally, let us return to Geto at the end of E4

After Gojo asks Geto "does there really need to be any point to it?" (killing), the camera flashes quickly between the applauding audience and Geto's empty hand, which he then clenches into a tight fist. He raises his downcast eyes to look forwards (resolutely, looking into the future) and responds: "it's very important there is..."

We're left with the image of Gojo standing on a blue floor, surrounded by the clapping crowd. The floor wavers as an all consuming darkness pulses beneath him, locating Geto as it's central point as it surges out towards the crowd "...especially for a jujutsu sorcerer."

We're reminded of the conversation where Geto and Gojo almost come to blows whilst playing basketball in E1. Geto's argument that jujutsu sorcerers exist to protect non-jujutsu sorcerers whilst Gojo complains about having to protect "the weak" + patronisingly tells Geto to get off of his moral high horse.

Now we witness the extent of Gojo's apathy in action, as he pulls away from everything and everyone, and the swinging of Geto's moral compass from protection to genocide as he's left behind in the ruins of all that once was, of everything and everyone that he loved

#goddddd this gave me brain rot for about 6 hours?! #idk if people will appreciate it as much as fish discourse but FUCK I needed to just get it out of my system bc it's driving me insane???? #these two are making me + a good chunk of the internet unwell but i'm glad we can all be unwell together #also I have A LOT more to say about gojo geto + stsg more generally so I might continue to inflict long-winded meta analysis onto tumblr #like BOY do I have a bunch of shit I need to say about e5 so I guess that'll be another 5-6 hours of my life spent on that #rrp analysis #stsg #satosugu #gojo #gojo satoru #geto suguru #jjk colour theory #jjk fish discourse #geto #jjk #jjk season 2 #jjk s2 #jjk s2 e4 #jujutsu kaisen season 2 spoilers #jujutsu kaisen season 2 #jujutsu kaisen

[cerastes]

Hey how come you making flippant comments in regards to your own self-improvement fetish is so enlightening in regards to mental health things is this the whole 'professional' thing at work.

I would like to think so! When we think of "psychology", most people might have a very Freudian image of it: A therapist solemnly but very comprehensively taking notes as a patient lies on a couch and spills their guts, only interjecting once or twice in the hour-long session and then charging you. Psychoanalysis, the Freudian technique, I don't think it's useless, but it's definitely just one of a myriad of techniques and methods with which to carry out therapy (and one I myself am trained in and do not like). I myself am more of systems theory of psychology kind of guy (Humberto Maturana, Ludwig von Bertalanffy, Gregory Bateson, among others), and systems has a very input-output sort of view (if you want to learn more, you can also look up second order cybernetics and radical constructivism).

Where I am going with all of this is that if it may seem like I'm making flippant comments, then that means I've synthetized my own self-care mind palace to such a degree that it has simply become part of my discourse, my lingo, my poise, if you will, but that in itself took a lot of introspective work in a way that was tangible to me, or in other words, in a way that my brain accepted it. Ultimately, it's the role of the psychologist to lead one to something rather than to reveal any sort of secret to wellness. Using myself as an example, as someone that had suicidal depression at one point, being told to "think positively" didn't do a damn thing, because if it was that easy, then depression wouldn't exist. Instead, I more or less had to trick my own brain into giving it reasons as to why it should think positively, because it makes sense to do so, and in the same vein, I had to give it reasons as to why thinking negatively was dumb. Because that sort of logic works with me. So it's less "hey, think nice things :)" and more "okay but does it have to be like this? Does everyone else have this crushing sadness as their normal as well? I don't think so, so maybe what I'm feeling isn't normal. Why am I thinking that way? What do they have that I don't? Oh, thing A and thing B, yeah, makes sense, and do I want these things? Mmm thing A doesn't really matter to me, but thing B, I'm loathe to admit, is something I desire, how about I work towards having thing B for now as a goal and then see if that is good enough or at least improves my mental state? Are things really as hopeless as I think they are and am I enlightened by my grim outlook? Probably not, so why am I hopeless and why are they not? There's something I don't have or don't know, let's see what that is, and put these shit thoughts on hold until I can ascertain these things". This is a summarized version, of course, but you know what I mean.

But where I'm going with this (again) is that once you grab onto your own internal logic (which is where the introspective work leads to!) and know what makes you click and how your own metrics and parameters of motivation work, it becomes much much easier to have a healthy mental state and keep it healthy. This, in my opinion, should be the long term objective of any good therapy: To at least start your user (I don't really use the term "patient") on this road. I'm making it sounds all sunshine and rainbows, but introspective work worth having does entail having to look at the uglier parts of yourself and acknowledging them, hence why not a lot of people see it through. It takes commitment and guts because you very much do reach a point where you need to look at these things that are awful and be like "yes, this, too, is me" before you can start going into how to turn these into advantageous things instead.

Likewise, the therapy I do tends to have this as goal: Let's work this shit together so we can organize it in a way that's easier to handle for starters, and then you can have a very good grip on the reins of what makes you feel good and what makes you feel bad, and so can easily dispel the brain fog by simply consulting your inner blueprint. Each user is a whole different journey, and it's part of what makes psychology such a beautiful field.

[dnpbeats]

emma i need to confess something any theory about dnp fucking other people pisses me off

anon i'm gonna put about twenty disclaimers on this bc i'm not trying to start discourse but i must say i agree 😭😭 TO BE CLEAR at the end of the day we don't know the ins and outs of d&p's relationship, and we never will. as dan said in BIG ppl want to know who he's fucking when he's fucking them and how long he's fucking them but that is not our business to know!! so i acknowledge that my thoughts on this are my thoughts and they come from a place of personal bias and projection! so if u disagree that’s okay!! okay anyway:

yeah lmao i get that i honestly don't think that they are in an open relationship for a variety of reasons. like logistically speaking it'd be difficult (espc before they were out) and we at least know phil doesn't like one night stands, so it's not like they're perusing grindr every day looking for someone to hook up with. but also like all the swinging jokes are what make me be like yeah they aren't doing that bc if they were i don't think they'd joke about it sm bc i think it would hit too close to home 💀😭 also, i think people read too much into some of dan's comments during WAD. like i get it, yes he likes making horny jokes, but i dont think it's that deep. like even if he wasn't with phil/was in an open relationship, he wasnt being serious when he said cute mutuals slide into my DMs yk 😭 he's always made jokes about being thirsty it's nothing new. also he himself said that all his thirst posting were jokes*! and other reasons too like how jealous dan gets 💀💀

but i also think people have only one interpretation of what he says sometimes, for example him saying things like this: "This is my hot boy autumn right now and I am very much enjoying, for the first time in my life, being free and out and in the world, being able to actually talk about things, being honest, being able to go out and have fun." which, if you want to interpret that as dan saying he's getting dicked down every night of tour, that's your prerogative! but i do not think that "being free and out in the world" has to be about sex, like there are so many layers to that! i just take it to mean like being able to live authentically and exist as a gay man in public yk?

ive said this a couple times in tags on other posts, but i think that sometimes (not all the time!!) the reason why ppl come up with open relation theories is because it's already a given that d&p are together. like in 2015 you could theorize "are they gay are they in a relationship" because it wasn't explicitly stated by them. but now that they're explicitly gay, and anyone reading between the lines can see that they're together, you can't really "speculate" on phan. so, the next progression is to speculate on the exact nature of their relationship: is it open, are they in a qpr, etc. so anyway yeah that's my two cents 😭 if someone thinks they're in an open relationship that's fine pls don't come for me 😭😭

*I CANT FIND THE SOURCE FOR THIS but i know he said it bc i've referenced it before, when i eventually find it i'll put the link 🙏🏻🙏🏻

#ask #anon #d&p

[mdzs-fanon-exposed]

Introductory post: Please read! :)

hi everyone! welcome to my very own MDZS-specific iteration of the unparalleled @svsss-fanon-exposed and @tgcf-fanon-exposed. this blog is designed to find the differences between canon and fanon in the Mo Dao Zu Shi/Grandmaster of Demonic Cultivation fandom.

this blog is NOVEL CANON ONLY. although i may occasionally cite the drama or the donghua as the potential source for any misconceptions, the canons of these adaptations differ too much from the novel canon for my purposes (plus i haven't finished either one. whoops).

how this whole thing works:

send me an ask! is this thing you thought was canon actually fanon? is that fanon idea supported in the books? where? why? how?

i'll answer the ask with a rating, using SVFE's helpful rating system (explained below), and then go into detail. generally a post will include textual evidence supporting my rating, and possibly an analysis of what this means/where an idea came from.

i'll do my best not to introduce my own personal opinions or biases into the posts. if you have any textual evidence that you think disproves or otherwise contradicts one of my posts, i'm always happy to be corrected! HOWEVER. please do not argue with me or anyone else unnecessarily; this blog is not supposed to be a site for or source of discourse. i will block anyone who is repeatedly coming at me with bad faith. i'm doing this project for fun, and i want to keep it that way for everyone :)

posts will probably be sporadic so i don't burn myself out and lose interest. however, i want to try and answer as many questions as i can! submissions will open and close based on demand so i can stay on top of things.

some important things to keep in mind:

i'm not here to dunk on anyone's headcanons, and i am fully supportive of everyone's creative choices in the fandom!! (in fact i have many headcanons myself.) DO NOT harass anyone for their interpretations of the series. my purpose here is just to clarify whether certain ideas are textually supported, NOT to give an opinion on them.

i'm doing this blog for fun, so i'll be treating it as a casual project. i will only be using the official english translation of the novels, with the supplementary exception of the exiled rebels fanlation. i don't speak any chinese, so i will not be using the untranslated raws or any non-english fandom sources in my posts. although i'll be doing research as needed, i also will not be evaluating any headcanons purely based on chinese cultural norms, due to my unfamiliarity with them. if you are more familiar with any of these sources and have more information to add to a post, please let me know!

BECAUSE this is a casual project from someone whose only credentials are being completely obsessed with mo dao zu shi and knowing how to write an essay, anyone is welcome to make a blog that does this but. better. let me know if you start one and i'll point people your way lol.

finally: i will NOT be entertaining any character bashing in or on my blog. i've noticed that a lot of mdzs characters have some very... strong opinions about them across the fandom, and i may evaluate the "canon status" of asks that address specific aspects of these opinions, but as a general rule: i am going to be neutral-to-positive about EVERY mdzs character (yes, even that one. and that one. and-). and again, this is not a personal opinion-based blog, i'm looking at textual support, so honestly i don't think this disclaimer is necessary. but. just in case.

💥💥the rating system:💥💥

CANON: what it says on the tin! this fact is supported by the text. if you're trying to be as canon-compliant as possible, this rating is for you.

RUMOR: this fact is an in-text rumor. although this idea is mentioned in the novel, it's still not explicitly confirmed as canon. the characters themselves don't know if it's true or not!

FANON – SUPPORTED: not directly stated in canon, but it's a very likely interpretation, taking into account factors like cultural norms and occam's razor! this rating might be retroactively added to a post previously rated FANON – NEUTRAL, based on crowdsourced information about the raws or chinese culture.

FANON – NEUTRAL: it's not canon, but it's not NOT canon. the text neither confirms nor denies this interpretation, so it's up to you whether you want to consider it true to canon or not. the world is your oyster.

FANON – UNSUPPORTED: not directly stated in canon, but it's a very unlikely interpretation, taking into account factors like cultural norms and occam's razor. this rating might be retroactively added to a post previously rated FANON – NEUTRAL, based on crowdsourced information about the raws or chinese culture.

FANON – CONFLICTING: this idea directly contradicts something stated in the text. if you want to stay as canon-compliant as possible, this rating is not for you.

#mdzs #mo dao zu shi #mdzs meta #here goes nothing i suppose #i want you all to picture the 💥 emoji as if 'the rating system' was a youtube title screen with a bunch of explosions and air horns btw

[kyojurismo]

I love it thank you so much omg soft dad Giyuu is my favorite Giyuu. Tell me why I see the youngest see Obanai talk bad about Giyuu and in her sweetest innocent voice calls him every curse word she knows like not yelling just calling him curse words that she learned from Sanemi and poor Giyuu having a heart attack lol

▸ ANSWERING. i’m glad you enjoyed it !! it was fun writing about giyu taking care of youngsters, i honestly think that he would seriously be good at it and be super attentive hehe, so yeah, here’s the little episode in question 😎

▸ FANDOM. kimetsu no yaiba

▸ CHARACTERS. giyu tomioka, sanemi shinazugawa, obanai iguro & reader’s little sister

▸ RATING. sfw

▸ WARNINGS. reader is not present here! cursing, obanai is a bit of a dick ngl, not proofread

for context, check this post !!

your younger sister is on her way home, after spending the evening playing with mitsuri, when she hears obanai’s voice. “he’s so full of himself. tomioka rarely discuss with the others after a meeting, he always leaves first and sends that look of ‘i don’t have time for this’.”

“piece of shit,” she says, appearing right in front of him. obanai turns to her, surprised. “what?” sanemi turns to her, even more surprised than his friend.

“fucking piece of shit, idiot, dipshit, dickhead,” she continues. both of them stare at her in silence, trying to reorganise their thoughts while giyu is not so far blankly watching the scene. “where . . . did you learn that?” he gulps.

she turns to giyu and smiles widely. “sanemi-san!” she even uses her small finger to point at the white-haired boy. both of them share a look, one showing disbelief and the other embarrassment. “s-sanemi taught you those words?” giyu feels like he’s about to pass out. deep down he knew it was a bad idea letting your sister spend alone time with the wind hashira.

“hey, hold on! she probably heard someone saying them and started repeating them. i mean, obanai curses a lot too,” sanemi defends himself, pulling obanai into the discourse. “i never spend more than five minutes around her,” obanai states, his tone sharper than usual. “well, there’s tengen too.”

“you know what? i don’t wanna know,” giyu shakes his head and walks to your sister. he picks her up, sending one last glance at them before walking away.

“these are very bad words, promise me you’ll never repeat them. okay?” he explains in a soft tone, looking at her. “okay, giyu-san!” she nods eagerly and smiles, then rest her head on his shoulder. giyu nods and sighs deeply, caressing her back while walking home.

▸ BEFORE LEAVING. reblog and comments are super appreciated. <3

#📂 — writing !! #giyuu tomioka x reader #giyuu tomioka blurb #giyuu tomioka drabble #giyuu tomioka imagine #giyuu tomioka one shot #giyuu tomioka fanfic #kny giyuu #kimetsu no yaiba #kimetsu no yaiba fanfic #demon slayer #demon slayer fanfic

[peri]

Peridot and Unlearning (Internalized & Externalized) Homophobia

i.e., here's why peridot's redemption arc is partially (a metaphor?) about unlearning homophobia

the title sounds crazy but bear with me here.

let's start off with saying NO, fusion does not = romantic love. that's an age old discourse and it can be so easily solved by stating there are many different forms of love, and sometimes fusion is just for power (which is a form of love in-of itself, albeit fucked; the love for power or toxic love) HOWEVER, in many cases, such as Garnet's, it most certainly is about romantic love. so to keep it as brief as possible, thats what we have in mind in this post. it's gay love okay.

now, let's talk about the scene i just captioned. this is from the episode "too far," which is an episode about developing a crush and accidentally hurting them in the process of trying to impress them. (however you want to look at it, but thats how i interpret it) the fact it starts off with casual homophobia is important, coz it shows peridot still has a lot of prejudices despite recently becoming part of the team, which is full of gay people, undeniably.

peridot's redemption arc is partially about coming to terms with your sexuality, retraining your mind from internalized homophobia after being raised in such a homophobic society/household, and becoming proud of your sexuality / identity.

OBSERVE:

"you dont understand! im protecting a planet i was once trying to destroy! i used to follow every order - every rule!"

"now im a traitor! a rebel!"

"A CRYSTAL QUEEEEEER"

sorry i had that joke stored for this analysis since 2019. anyways

i'm going to try to keep this short, but more under the cut.

IM SO BAD at organizing my words so this post is rly hard to make so im gonna do it like this.

MORE EVIDENCE THAT PERIDOT'S REDEMPTION ARC IS COMING TO TERMS WITH BEING GAY / UNLEARNING HOMOPHOBIA:

being frustrated about joining a lesbian/gay gang

coming from a society where homosexuality is forbidden

telling off your mom by saying youre joining some rebel lesbians/gays to fight her oppressive society

wearing pride flags (stars) everywhere after coming out

looking up to experienced lesbians (Garnet)

the scissoring joke (from "too far." if you know you know)

furthermore, i thought it'd be fair to include peridot learning how to respect how people identify in other ways, such as names / how they prefer to be addressed. this, most of the time, goes hand-in-hand with homophobia.

peridot, narrating: "he also said he wanted me to stop calling him "the" steven." steven: "its just, steven!" peridot: "i told him i'd call him whatever i want!" [hiss] peridot: "he told me that was rude."

(from the episode "log date 7 15 2")

peridot learns how to respect how people identify. lgbt win

i should add she also eventually learns how to respect Garnet's whole deal in the same episode (log date 7 15 2) which was also a huge moment in her unlearning homophobia. which, btw if you dont know or dont remember, Garnet does by comparing herself to peridot's (assuming) gay ship between Percy and Pierre from Camp Pining Hearts, saying she was the optimized version of herself (the reason peridot "ships" them; theyre the best team logically according to her analysis ship chart)

anyways, now the biggest most obvious point is the fact that peridot actually is gay. i've referred to this episode a few times now, but thats becoz it really is a huge point in proving my 'thesis';

in the episode "too far," peridot is shown to get obsessed with impressing amethyst. peridot experiences something they havent yet up until this point: a crush. i mean, you can interpret it as you wish, but thats how i saw it. the butterflies, the obsession with making someone laugh, the fact peridot states amethyst is objectively the best gem of the crystal gems and emphasizes "damaging her standing with the best gem here" with their apology to amethyst after hurting her feelings.

and um, this.

🌈yeag

sorry im losing any professionalism i started this post with. also this is focusing on early-season / redemption arc peridot which is why its kind of short and is missing stuff from later seasons. i hope this was at least somewhat concise and easy to understand, and i hope yall see my point of view here! feel free to add on (theres SO MUCH its easy for it to skip my mind) if you have any other points youd like to make to support my cause and uprising. love you

#peridot #su #steven universe #q slur #idc abt the discourse w tagging it as that im doing it for a friend. love and light #im so sorry for the bad formatting im off my meds #peridot analysis #tagging that for personal ref ok bye

[scarwasright]

FMA is a weird, special case study in the limitations and pitfalls of the way fandoms create bodies of work.

The trends and tropes of fanwork tend to focus on individual character relationships-- how characters feel about each other, with little or no emphasis on the broader context of those feelings. In a setting with low stakes or simple politics, this is fine. This is why I think AUs that sand off the edges of worldbuilding are so popular. They skip the more difficult foundational Stuff in favor of a quicker, and I would argue much less impactful, catharsis.

The relationships (friendly, antagonistic, familial, romantic, sexual, some combination of these,) are primary in fandom, and everything surrounding them is just set dressing that exists in service to the characters being centered.

In a vacuum, this is generally Fine. Is it intellectually rigorous? No, usually not, but not all art needs to be. Chicken nuggets are perfectly fine with a well balanced diet.

BUT,

This is also how we end up with decades of fanworks that tastelessly recycle a genocide that is foundational to FMA's canon lore into "that thing that makes Roy and Riza sad, sometimes." The "because they did it" is usually in fine print off to the side, unexamined and unacknowledged for the weight it ought to reasonably carry. It's just Angst Set Dressing.

FMA is in no small part about how the people who do the worst things that we can conceive of are still people. "Humanization" is often taken with the assumption that sympathy is being demanded of the viewer, but it is, in truth, just a reflection of reality. People who condone, uphold, and carry out systemic violence are people. This is an important message to internalize for those who are privileged under violent systems. The violent actor is not some mysterious Other. They could be someone you look up to. They could be you.

This is why it's thematically important that Ed gets kicked out of an inn for flashing his watch, which to him, until that point, was an all-access pass. This is why the conclusion of his character arc is that his choices do not exist in a vacuum, even though his privilege offers him the chance to pretend that they do. This is why it's thematically satisfying for Roy to not become the Fuhrer, but to kill him. This is why it really isn't all that surprising that AU Hughes is a Nazi.

FMA03 does not allow the viewer to conveniently disengage with the fact that its protagonists and the people they look up to operate in support an apartheid state. This is literally what the show is about.

Fandom, meanwhile, is almost exclusively about disengaging from that discomfort. This is partially why, back when I was more active in talking about this series and its characters, many people took my pointing out this dissonance as a personal attack. This is why fandom, for all its noise-making about being an escapist counter-culture, is overwhelmingly white. We self-select for it, driving out Black and brown and indigenous voices who object to this willful disengagement from the themes deemed too Icky and Difficult to be meaningfully addressed in our fan works. "It's just shipping, why are you Starting Discourse?" or "I just like these characters and don't like those ones, it's not that deep."

Fandom is deeply averse to critical thought. This will never not feel like a bizarre contradiction to me, but there isn't a nice way to paint it. I know I'm not saying anything new, but the unique manifestation of it in my corner of the internet feels like a case study for why mashing barbies together isn't devoid of context, no matter how hard a given author or artist tries to make it so.

#meta #I guess

[the-conversation-pod]

Tens and Chops, Vol. 1 (A Grab Bag Episode)

We gotta clear the decks ahead of the VIIB Awards, so it’s a grab bag episode! Ben, NiNi, and Shan talk a bunch of shows that we couldn’t NOT talk about, and award the fall’s Girl You Tried.

Grab a drink and a snack and join us for one of the most varied episodes we've had on the show.

Timestamps

The timestamps will now correspond with chapters on Spotify for easier navigation.

00:00:00 - Introduction 00:01:15 - Kiseki: Dear To Me 00:12:20 - Dangerous Romance 00:26:05 - Love In Translation 00:41:14 - I Cannot Reach You 00:54:43 - My Personal Weatherman 01:07:01 - If It's With You 01:15:38 - Absolute Zero 01:21:05 - My Dear Gangster Oppa 01:33:32 - Middleman's Love 01:49:07 - Final Thoughts, and Girl, You Tried

The Conversation Transcripts!

Thanks to the continued efforts of @ginnymoonbeam as transcriber, and @lurkingshan as an editor and proofreader, we are able to bring you transcripts of the episodes.

We will endeavor to make the transcripts available when the episodes launch, and it is our goal to make them available for past episodes (Coming soon thanks to @wen-kexing-apologist). When transcripts are available, we will attach them to the episode post (like this one) and put the transcript behind a Read More cut to cut down on scrolling.

Please send our volunteers your thanks!

00:00:00 - Welcome

NiNi

Welcome to The Conversation About BL, aka The Brown Liquor Podcast.

Ben

And there it is. I’m Ben.

NiNi

I’m NiNi.

Ben

And we’re you’re drunk Caribbean uncle and auntie here sitting on the porch in the rocking chairs.

NiNi

Four times a year we pop in to talk about what’s going on in the BL world.

Ben

We shoot the shit about stories and all the drama going into them. I review from a queer media lens.

NiNi

And I review from a romance and drama lens.

Ben

So if you like cracked-out takes and really intense emotional analysis…

NiNi

If you like talking about artistry, industry, and the discourse…

Ben

And if you generally just love simping…

NiNi

There is a lot of simping on this podcast…

Ben

We are the show for you!

00:01:15 - Tens and Chops

Ben

And we're back! We've made it to the Grab Bag for this season of The Conversation. We've named this one “Tens and Chops: Volume 1.” I really hope we have a collection of these to do a smash cut off in the future.

NiNi

So looking forward to it. Definitely looking forward to it. Absolutely looking forward to it. I named it Volume 1 for a reason.

Ben

We have nine shows to talk about plus a bonus segment. Because there are nine shows to talk about, we have brought in help for this one. We have brought in our drama expert, Shan, who is with us again.

Shan

Hello people.

NiNi

Ah, that sweet, sweet smell of a great guest. I love it. Okay, all right, let's dive in, people.

Ben

All right. So, Shan, we're finally into the winter. Let's discuss the fall shows as an experience. As you know, I was grumpy as hell coming out of the summer through the fall with the state of BL. 

How are you feeling about all these various shows?

Shan

Your grumpiness was not unfounded. I don't think the fall season was particularly strong. We hit a slump. A lot of shows just flopped right at the end after strong starts, a lot of shows just didn't take off. There were some things that we were really excited about and then when we actually got to them it was…just so fucking disappointing. [laughs]

I think the strong start to the year and some of our expectations for these shows maybe set us up to be a little extra disappointed in how the season went.

Ben

Before we get into all of the shows individually, NiNi, for the sake of our audience, who may want to skip around this episode, please read the list of shows we're about to discuss.

NiNi

[clears throat] Don't mind if I do! So, in this episode we shall be discussing Kiseki: Dear To Me from Taiwan, Dangerous Romance from Thailand, Love In Translation also from Thailand, I Cannot Reach You from Japan, My Personal Weatherman also from Japan, If It's With You also from, you guessed it, Japan, Absolute Zero from Thailand, My Dear Gangsta Oppa from Thailand-ish, and Middleman's Love the most Thai thing I have seen. [laughs]

Ben

All right. So we're going to be here for a while. I hope you grabbed your drinks and a snack.

NiNi

Put us on pause. Go pee, come back. Or you could just take your phone to the bathroom. Whatever you're doing, I'm not judging you.

Ben

I am, don't worry.

[NiNi laughs]

00:04:20 - Kiseki: Dear To Me

NiNi

Alright, let's start with Kiseki. Ben, what is Kiseki about?

Ben

It's about how nothing was learned from HIStory 3: Make Our Days Count, and that once again I have been made to suffer for things I did not do. 

Kiseki: Dear to Me is a Taiwanese BL about a well-performing high school student late in his studies who gets wrapped up in the gang politics of his local area, falls in love with a gangster, and complications ensue? There's a side couple that's also a bunch of gangsters who end up stealing the show.

Shan

[laughs] I was going to say, I'm pretty sure this show is actually about Ai Di, but okay.

Ben

It is a Lin Pei Yu joint, and we were expecting so much more from her, and yet here we are talking about it in the Grab Bag.

NiNi

Mm-mm-mm. So, Shan, come on in here. Give me, like, a word or a short phrase—something pithy—for the audience.

Shan

Hmm… The pithy description of this show? “Chaotic, but in an awesome way.”

NiNi

Interesting…

Ben

I will agree with that. This show was fun as hell to watch when it wasn't enraging for me.

NiNi

[laughs] I don't know. I was watching it and literally losing the thread while I was watching it.

Shan

Your mistake was ever trying to grasp the thread in the first place.

NiNi

You right, you're right. I made a mistake. My bad. I shouldn't have tried. But—[laughs]—the show was clearly trying, so I thought I had to try, too. 

Listen, I often find Taiwanese shows hard to follow, personally, and I know that's a me thing. But it's something about where they choose to start and end their episodes, I think. I lose the thread.

Ben

I do agree with that. I don't think that, at least the BL tradition we've been exposed to, values episodic structure in a way that is recognizable to those of us who are probably grounded in the American sitcom tradition. A lot of their shows, we tend to remember as a whole, not as individual parts, and that did not work very well here. 

You were not the only person struggling from episode to episode remembering what the fuck was going on. I struggled as well. It was difficult watching this show because I didn't really know thematically what the show wanted to be about. While I really liked the work everyone did—I think all of the actors at every level were really dialed in and it was fun for some of the cameos. I will never return to this particular show because this show involves Wayne Song and Huang Chun Chih as gangsters who are rivals with the leads we care about. 

They have Wayne playing this super-violent, kind of out-of-control gang leader who has to die, and he does, and this is a bad choice because it's not like the rest of us fucking forgot about HIStory 3: Make Our Days Count, and then they released a special episode that is just, “By the way, Chun Chih's character was mooning after him the whole time and now he's sad.” Why? Why was this the choice? Have you not learned that we don't want you to kill these guys? Shit!

NiNi

I think definitely the cameos across the board lost me—A, because I don't watch that much Taiwanese BL, so a lot of it was like, “Wait, who's this guy? Who's this guy? Who's this guy? Why are they here? What are they doing?” I recognize a couple of faces from a couple of things, but mostly I was just confused.

Shan

This show was like 50% powered by cameos. That is what kept people excited week over week and talking about the show. Spotting the faces was really fun. 

So, NiNi, as the resident Taiwanese BL apologist around here, you are absolutely correct that it is often hard to follow the story. The writing is always the weakest point. What has always been my favorite thing about the shows we get from Taiwan is that there is a real connection, I think, between the physical stuff, the intimacy work, and the emotions of the characters, and they kind of really nail those relationship dynamics and that kind of character work. 

But the stories—the plots—have always been kind of a mess, even in my favorite Taiwanese BLs? And this one really took the cake. It was all over the place. I could not at any point in this show, find my footing in the plot, or what was supposed to be happening, or why I was supposed to care. 

That didn't really bother me because this is definitely a show that encourages you to just be along for the ride, and kind of react to scenes, and not worry too much about the overarching story. And that worked for me in this show enough that I had a good time. Would I say that it's good or well written? Absolutely not. [laughs] 

And Ben's complaints about the way that they used those actors from Make Our Days Count are absolutely valid. I kind of couldn't believe the audacity, putting Wayne Song in the show just to kill him off.

Ben

Audacity is the right call, bestie. Thank you very much.

Shan

Right, the audacity! Like, it was not a cool thing to do, and they shouldn’t have done it. So those criticisms are completely fair about this show.

NiNi

There are things about this that I absolutely liked. I did enjoy the couples. I enjoyed the unhinged-ness of them, but I couldn't follow their story, so I was just kind of vibing—which, totally my style. And when I was just vibing I was havin’ a good time. 

If I had to score Kiseki: Dear to Me. The couples are great, the story’s a mess. I'd give it a 6 ½.

Ben

Shan?

Shan

I gave it a 7.5, which was probably generous because I just had so much fun watching it, but I can't claim that it is structurally sound.

Ben

Shan, like the rest of MDL, rated this show with her coochie.

NiNi

That is staying in.

[all laugh]

Shan

What did you score it, Ben?

Ben

What do you think I scored it, bestie? 

Shan

I feel like you scored it real low, because you were pissed about Wayne Song. [laughs]

Ben

I was pissed.

NiNi

Ben was definitely offended, so it got a 5 or less.

Shan

Oh yeah, for sure.

Ben

What do you think I gave it?

Shan

3.

Ben

NiNi

5.

Ben

I gave it a 5. We're laughing a little bit, but legitimately that was so upsetting. And your show was stupid! There wasn't even a point to it. It was just shock, and it felt mean, like you're still salty with us about the HIStory franchise. You are not getting above a 5 from me, despite the fact that Louis Chang and Nat Chen were so much fun to watch, and how much I enjoyed the work between Taro Lin and Hsu Kai. I had a great time watching all four of these men and all the people who cameoed in this.

NiNi

Why do you think there was no Tang Yi and Shao Fei?

Ben

Because there's a cash grab for doing HIStory 6: Freed.

Shan

I want HIStory 6: Freed, and I want it fucking yesterday. Where is our show? [Ben laughs]

NiNi

Alright, so Ben gave it a 5. I gave it a 6.5. Shan gave it a very generous 7.5. Somebody do math.

Ben

That's a 6. 

Shan

You can call it a 6.

NiNi

It's a 6 for Kiseki: Dear to Me. Shoving it off, let's move on to the next one, which we are about to trash.

00:12:20 - Dangerous Romance

NiNi

Ben, tell the world about Dangerous Romance.

Shan

Oh, ho ho ho! Here we go!

Ben

Dangerous Romance—[sighs]—is about how a windmill… cannot be powered…without the wind.

[all break down for prolonged laughing fit]

NiNi

Please! I can’t stand your ass! 

Shan

Had to be done.

NiNi

Okay, bring it back, guys. Bring it back.

Ben

Dangerous Romance purports to be an inter class romance set in a high school between a very smart scholarship student who's super poor, because his parents are dead and it’s just him and his older brother, who's kind of irresponsible with money; and a rich kid who's kind of a pompous bully in school—has no valuable skills of any sort to bring to the table. The two of them crossed paths and are drawn to each other. There are things that happen in the show, I guess. Soccer is a big deal, at some point in this. There's very much a repeated High School Musical TROYYY bit that happens multiple times over three episodes.

[NiNi and Shan laugh]

NiNi

Oh, God, you shady bitch. Carry on.

Ben

It's trash. This show was fucking horrible. This show started out being so fucking interesting. There was the whole notion about Kanghan being just a stupid as hell bully, who only had money on his side, who was getting wrecked constantly by Sailom, this very smart, poor kid. 

And then after episode 2, it all went away, and it was about how Kanghan is a sad rich boy whose mom is dead. And so because his mom is dead, his dad just spoils him rotten, and he just wants his dad to treat him like a real boy, or whatever. I don't give a fuck. This show was so fucking trash. 

[NiNi laughs]

Shan, you're a fan of Shameless. Please explain to the people why this show was so offensive to you.

Shan

For the record, I think I dropped this show Week 4, because I was just so fucking pissed [laughs] about what they were doing with Sailom. 

A little background here: I grew up as a poor person—lived in poverty for like the first 20 years of my life. And I have always had a big interest in stories about class disparity, stories about surviving poverty, stories about families that get through those kinds of challenges because I lived it. And so I'm always very interested to see how it's depicted in fiction. So when the show started, I was so thrilled to finally see a Thai BL that seemed to be taking class disparity seriously? That seemed to want to explore what it actually means when a wealthy person and a poor person are kind of thrown together and have to figure out how to get on the same page across their differences. 

Sailom had some really serious shit set up for him. Him and his brother are in really hard times. They're in deep, deep debt. He's working multiple jobs to try to pay off this debt that they've inherited, and he has this fucking rich bitch bully on his ass, causing him problems, fucking with his jobs, fucking with his money, spreading rumors about him, costing him work! 

I think a lot of people who fell for this show maybe forgot—but I sure fucking didn't—that Kang spread rumors that Sailom was a fucking pedophile, and cost him all of his tutoring students. This is not minor shit that they set up at the beginning of this show to explain the adversarial relationship between these two characters. So I expected them to take it seriously. I expected this to be a serious narrative about how those two could get past those conflicts and come together in a romance—which obviously they were going to. But, that's not what we got at all. 

We didn't get a realistic look at what it means to be poor and to be living with a crushing debt that weighs you down every single day. We didn't get a realistic look at the dynamics between somebody who's grown up like Sailom with the experiences that he's had and the issues that he has to carry every single day, and how he might think about someone like Kang and how he might view him with disdain, and with resentment. We didn't get any of that. We didn't get a realistic look at how these two could come past the initial bullying and the initial things that Kang did to fuck with his life and his money. 

This is life-or-death stakes. They showed us that. Him and his brother are actually getting beat because of this debt on a regular basis. This is not a light issue. And so to set up all of that in the first two episodes, and then immediately pivot, by the third episode, to a bog-standard BL with these two just kind of flirtin’ with each other, and doing all the classic tropes, and Sailom apparently just fucking forgetting all the things that Kang did to him because of one isolated moment? 

None of it made any sense to me. I felt like they flipped a switch and changed Sailom's character from episode 2 to 3, and he never came back. I stopped watching the show in episode 4, but I continued to follow the discourse, so I know that the real Sailom never came back. 

I just don't understand what happened with this show. I don't understand how the same writers could have written those initial episodes and that set up and then carried out the show in the way that they did. I actually found it offensive. I am still pissed off about it! You can hear it in my voice, I'm sure! This was not a joke to me. I was very upset with what this show did. It's inexcusable.

Ben

Kill ‘em, bestie. [laughs]

NiNi

Murder them.

For me, the problem—the main problem with the show—was that the show was about Kanghan and it should have been about Sailom. That's really it in a nutshell. If the show was about Sailom, if it was about Sailom being the main character and you getting into Sailom’s head, and seeing Sailom’s life through Sailom’s eyes, and seeing how Sailom deals with his life, then that's the show that I wanted to see. 

You're talking about the serious shit that's going down. Kang literally shows up at Sailom’s house with a gun! Have we forgotten about this?

Ben

After his friend said, “Bruh, I think the whole gun thing is maybe going too far.”

NiNi

None of these characters are consistent. The characters that are set up in the beginning, the ones that you are interested in, the stories that you think, “Okay, this is what they're setting up.” None of that happens. Those characters vanish basically overnight. 

Saifah was set up to be this kind of charming, feckless older brother who can't be relied upon, but Sailom really loves him. He works with old people, and he kind of steals from them, and scams them a little bit. That's an interesting character. And then one day his debt collector sends a new guy, and the new guy is somebody he went to high school with. And I was like, “Well, this is about to be interesting!” [buzzer sound], I was wrong. No, it was not interesting.

Ben

It's really frustrating, because there's actually a fairly decent small plot in the middle of the show where Saifah has schemed his way into working for the same family. He's been dealing with a work related injury, and the grandma pays for some expensive European medicine for him. He doesn't realize this is for him, and he thinks about stealing it and replacing it with a generic. There’s a really interesting moment where he chooses not to steal from them and then learns that it was a gift intended for him, that is this really decent moment in the show which only further pisses me off. 

Every now and then, this show seemed to understand some of the complex dynamics it was about, and then went right back to fuckin’ it up for no reason.

Shan

I think NiNi is right that the main problem was that the show should have been Sailom’s show and instead they made it about Kanghan, and I don't know why they did that. The first two episodes were clearly rooted in Sailom’s story, and that's what really, I think, threw me.

Ben

Chimon is also the older, veteran actor. Why didn't they believe in him? Like, he could have carried this show. I do not know why they decided to lean on Perth. This is the second time this year they have tried to lean on Perth and it has not been a good choice.

NiNi

I think that Perth is a good actor but he needs a strong lead. He's a follow, but he's a good follow if he has a strong lead. Trying to put him in the lead position? He works best when he's pulling off of somebody.

Shan

Mhmm. If they had let Chimon anchor this, and him follow, I agree with you, NiNi.

NiNi

And then why did they even bother View and June? Why did they make them get out of bed?

Ben

Ohh, are we talking about the teacher-student line between View and June? I'm not.

Shan

I'm so glad I was already gone for that! Whew! I don't even want to know.

NiNi

It wasn't even a thing, though!

Ben

I'm not discussing it, I will not.

NiNi

Listen, honestly, the best parts of the show were, A, the first two episodes, B, everything that Euro did? Euro was great. I loved Euro.

Ben

Okay. I will say that. Let us not walk away from this without shouting out Euro. They do not give big boys a lot of love and respect in this field and, Euro. You did good work, sir. You should have been allowed to kiss—which of the twins was in this?

NiNi

I think it was JJ.

Ben

JJ! You should have been allowed to kiss JJ in this show!

NiNi

I also did not hate Marc and Pawin in this. They were not bad.

Ben

They were not good. [laughs]

NiNi

I didn't say they—I said I didn't hate them, and they were not bad.

Shan

Damning with faint praise indeed.

NiNi

And you know how I feel about Pawin!

Ben

The problem with this is, again, like the pieces were there. But, did you know that a windmill—[all laugh]—cannot function without the wind? If you're tired of this bit in the podcast, watch the show!

Shan

You can only imagine the horrors awaiting you.

Ben

There's a class difference between Kanghan—did you know his name means ‘windmill’?—anyway. 

And so there's a class difference between the two of them. And there's a class difference between Nawa, Pawin's character who's rich, and Guy, Marc's character who was poor. They're friends with the other leads. There was a real opportunity to tell a story about, how do these dynamics play out where people mix? There's an egalitarian aspect to all going to the same schooling system together, even if some of you are there by scholarship, or because your mom works for the place in the case of Euro's character Auto. Marc's character Guy, he's probably there on a football related scholarship because he's an athlete. 

Like there's an interesting thing to say here, but they did nothing with it. It is such a waste of all the goddamn talent on this show, and it was a waste of 12 weeks of my life. This show was bad. This show was offensive. And this show was stupid.

All right, ratings.

NiNi

I gave it a…5.

Ben

Shan?

Shan

Well, since I didn't actually finish the show, I didn't give it a formal rating, but y'all should know that it's, like, a 2 in my heart.

Ben

It is a 3 formally from me. I watched the whole fucking thing. It was shit and offensive. You get a 3 for that.

NiNi

So with 2, a 3, and a 5, I think that pulls you down towards the end of 3.5. 

Ben

Oh yeah, it's bad. 

NiNi

It's not good.

Ben

It's a 3. 

Shan

Do not watch it.

Ben

Unless you need to understand that windmills require the wind to function.

NiNi

[Laughs] Oh, no.

Ben

And let's talk about the fucking ending of this trash piece of shit. The tag of this show is these two characters engaged in sex work play where the poor kid is playing an escort who has to take care of his rich client. 

What the absolute fuck was this?

NiNi

I wanted to vomit.

Shan

I actually can't believe that happened. I saw it. I saw the GIFs on Tumblr, and I thought I was having a fucking hallucination or something.

NiNi

Sex work role play…Okay, anyway. So, on that note—

Ben

It's a chop!

Shan

Well that was a definite chop.

NiNi

Chop.

Ben

Three chops. [slams desk] It's over.

[NiNi laughs]

00:26:05 - Love In Translation

Ben 

On to the next show—oh, good, it finally gets better. [laughs]

Shan

This is a good one!

Ben

All right, great. 

NiNi 

The next show on the list, now that we've gotten that out of the way, is Love in Translation. Ben, what is Love in Translation about? 

Ben 

Love in Translation is a workplace BL in which two characters from different backgrounds come together to run a convenience store in Bangkok. One of them's name is Phumjai. He is a Thai national who comes from a seemingly well off family, who is obsessed with an idol named Tammy. He learns that Tammy is interested in picking up a potential partner in Thailand, but she wants that partner to be able to speak Mandarin and she would like for that character to also be an entrepreneur. Seeing that there's a chance here with Tammy, he decides he wants to formally learn Chinese and goes to a, like, small business association meeting or whatever, to see about starting something up. 

Meanwhile, we have Yang Yan Feng, who is a Chinese national who is here to open up a shop in a very specific point because of backstory reasons involving his dad, I guess. The two of these characters cross paths and don't end up liking each other at first, but circumstances come together, and the only Black character in Thai BL this year ends up connecting the two of them and they form a little shop together. Yang agrees to also teach Phumjai Mandarin and flirt with Tammy on his behalf. Very many hijinks ensue, but this show ended up being one of my favorites of the year. 

Shan, you ended up really enjoying this show. Tell us the things you liked about the show in the early weeks when we were deciding whether or not we needed to give ourselves La Pluie-level brainrot over it to convince people to watch it. 

Shan 

It ended up being really enjoyable. I was a little bit more skeptical going in than Ben. I'm not as inclined to sitcom style in BL as Ben is. Like, I think you kind of find it very comforting and familiar, whereas I kind of feel it's sometimes an awkward match of styles, and so I wasn't quite as convinced going in that I was gonna love it. But I enjoyed it a lot, and I think what I liked so much about this show is that, at its core, it's really just about kind people who are mostly just doing their best to be decent to each other and do right by each other. And they have misunderstandings. And there's a lot of comedy in those misunderstandings. There's silly stuff. There's fights, including physical fights that get pretty outrageous. There's characters making mistakes, but it feels like everybody's really well-intentioned and really earnestly trying their best. And I just think it's kind of impossible not to like a show like that. 

I also just really appreciated that this show—it had a good cast of characters. There was a lot of quirky folks. When I was watching it, I was reminded of shows like Superstore, where it's a little bit sitcom-y, you're in a store, you've got this big cast of personalities that you can kind of call on for comedy bits, as needed. And I thought it worked really, really well. 

And the romance between Phumjai and Yang, it was really nice. They just kinda liked each other once they got past their initial misunderstandings, and they got more comfortable with each other over time as they worked together on this project—on this store. They really got to know each other. 

Phumjai was fixated with this influencer Tammy originally, and he had a really natural progression away from that crush and toward developing feelings for Yang because of the authentic time that they were spending together and the real bond that they were building. And I always just find those kinds of romances really compelling. They're making something together, and that makes them want to be good to each other, and it makes them see the best in each other, and then become interested in each other. And I just think we don't get enough naturally building romances like that in the genre. 

Ben 

NiNi, since we successfully bullied you into watching this show, what did you think of it? 

[NiNi laughs]

NiNi 

It was deathly cute. I enjoyed every single minute of the show. I liked the internationalist perspective of it because you've got Odo and then one of the workers in the store, I think, is part Thai? And then Yang is Chinese, so there's some fun internationalist stuff happening in the show that you don't always see coming out of Thailand. Ngern was there. 

Ben 

Oh, are we talking about that now? For those of you who give a shit, who have been in the genre before 2gether the series, who were there before even SOTUS, Ngern Anupart, who played Earn in Love Sick the series, and also played the lead role in Waterboyy the movie, and was in a terrible Thai drama called Part Time this series, which we all attempted just for him. 

Shan 

Did you memorize that man's resume? 

Ben 

Of course.

NiNi 

He did. 

Ben

Ngern Anupart is back with us in BL, and he's swole now, girls. You should watch. 

[NiNi laughs]

Shan 

I will say, I'm a Love Sick girlie. I did love Earn, the character in that. I love Ngern, the actor. I was very happy to see him in this. His character was perhaps the most annoying in this show. [laughs] 

NiNi 

I loved it! 

Ben 

It was so funny that he was so annoying! I loved him in this! 

Shan 

He played Phumjai’s brother, Phojai, who was a classic overbearing older sibling who just could not let Phumjai have any space to live and learn and make mistakes. He just was so on top of him all the time and making him lose confidence in a way that I think was well-intentioned, but just extremely wrong-headed. Just getting in the way of his brother's success as he was constantly professing his intention to do the opposite. It was a really good storyline, to be clear, like it was really well done. 

NiNi 

It was really great and the other great part is that the whole time he's dating Phumjai’s good friend who also works at the store, and they're kinda working together to make the store a success in the background but they're doing it all wrong. Phojai and Tag are adorable together, but Phojai’s a little closeted. So it gets a little complicated. But overall, it ended up being real cute. There is a fantastic gag with some disguises that I swear to God was so hilarious. 

Ben 

Highlight of the year for me. [laughs]

NiNi 

This show was funny. It was sweet. It was… pretty hot, actually. 

Shan

Right! High heat.

Ben 

This show does comedy really well. The comedic timing of this show is so intentional. It was intentional when they were filming it, and it was intentional when they were editing it. It isn't perfect, but it's intentional and it lands really well. This show was so funny in the early episodes when it was leaning more into the sitcom bits. 

NiNi 

I found it funny all the way through, because I always find some of the humor in the pathos that comes later down the line. Like it was so funny when Phumjai and Yang went on the practice date because Phumjai is getting ready to go on this date with Tammy. And he's going on this practice date, and all he's thinking about on this practice date is, “What does Yang want to do?” 

So he shows up at the practice date with green bread, a baseball mitt, like. [laughs] That's like, so much going on, and I'm like looking at it like, “Oh, this is so sweet and so funny because of course he would bring a freaking baseball mitt because he thinks that Yang would have a good time. This is adorable.” 

And then the end, when Phojai gets kidnapped—follow us, girlies. Phojai gets kidnapped because Phumjai is paying off this debt—there's a little mafia shit going down in the end. But Phojai gets kidnapped for, like, months, and then when they finally pay off the kidnappers and they've released Phojai, you discover that Phojai has actually been kind of running the shit in the mafia for the last two months! [laughs] He’s become, like, a trusted lieutenant. 

Of course you took over, because you are an elder sibling. This is what you do. You got them organized. You made them respect you. I respect that as an elder sibling myself. I was just like, “That's exactly what I would do.” It was so funny. I enjoyed it entirely all the way through. I did not mind Daou’s wig. 

Shan 

Thank you! Can we talk about the wig? This is very important to me. 

[NiNi laughs]

Ben 

No, because first I have to get very serious about how good the show actually was. We will undercut the seriousness of which I will talk about how good the show was with you talking about how terrible Daou’s wig was. 

[NiNi laughs]

So, for those of you who listen to The Conversation podcast, you know that NiNi and I don't always see eye-to-eye when it comes to really huge power dynamic differentials between characters. This show is one of the very rare examples of a workplace set show where the workplace mattered and also the leads were equal to each other. One of the caveats of Thai economic politics is that foreigners cannot hold majority stake ownership in a Thai corporation. So despite Yang's wealth that he brings to the table and determination to open up a store in Thailand, he cannot have majority stake. 

Phumjai, who doesn't bring any money to the table, brings the fact that he is a Thai national to the table. So the two of them have equal ownership in the store—Phumjai slightly has more. We think Phumjai might be a bumbling idiot, but when asked to hire people because Yang, even though he has business sense, he doesn't know anyone. Phumjai actually hires competent people to help out in the store. Yeah, sure, he hired a bunch of femmes, but he hired really competent people to work in their store, and was actively engaged with trying to make the store successful. He was doing rapid iteration of various marketing strategies to try to get customers to engage with their store. He doesn't use the formal language that Yang does, but he is trying his best, and bringing even his own little money he has to try and make the store’s opening as successful as possible. 

His interest in Tammy is also grounded in something real. We thought he was just lusting after an idol, but he had had a weird meet-cute with her when she had visited Thailand as a tourist. She asked him just to show her around because she was a little bit lost, and he basically went on a date with Tammy when she first came to Thailand. So his crush on her wasn't grounded on just the persona she presents in her show as an idol. He had had a genuine interaction with her and connection with her. And when he finally approaches her properly, Tammy is also receptive to his advances. Sure, they get complicated by the fact that this is a BL and she's a girl—she can't win. But she also takes that in stride. She is a character that is not dismissed along the way despite being a girl in a BL. 

This show was legitimately so good at managing its character dynamics and how the characters played with each other. The growth between Yang and Phumjai together and personally was really well handled. This show struggles a little bit on the back end by getting a little bit silly with Yang's debt and the [sigh] mafia shit, but legitimately, this is one of the better shows that aired this year. 

Now let's talk about Daou's wig. 

Shan

Thank you! I've been holding it in so bravely. 

[NiNi laughs]

Shan 

Listen, listen! This is about respect. I need to pay respect to Daou, because that man had to wear this monstrosity of a bowl cut on his head. This horrible wig. The sideburns looked so fake. Every time you got a slight angle on the wig, you could tell that it was just a mop sitting on his head. Somehow he managed to deliver some of the hottest scenes of the entire year while he had that wig on his head. And you know, I just think that that deserves recognition. 

Ben 

Let's talk about the hottest scene of the year. 

[NiNi laughs] 

These people recognized that this was a show set in a convenience store—

Shan

Mmhmm.

Ben

—and they said, “Offroad and Daou,” and they were like, “Yeah, what's up?” “We need you guys to knock down these fucking shelves in this fucking convenience store, banging it out, because it's definitely a kink thing for Yang.” And they said, “Bet.” 

Shan 

In front of the security camera!

Ben 

Yang absolutely has that footage saved somewhere. 

Shan 

[laughs] 100% he does. 

Ben 

I had an absolute blast with this show. This was legitimately one of my favorite shows of the year. 

NiNi 

I must concur, and I actually scored it a 10. 

Ben 

Holy shit.

NiNi 

And the reason I scored it at 10 was that at the end they turned the store into a workers cooperative. So that gets 10 for me. 

Shan 

Bonus points from NiNi. [Shan and NiNi laugh]

Ben 

All right, Shan, let's give it the real drama rankings. 

Shan

I gave it an 8. I loved the show. I had a great time with it. Is undeniably messy, and the writing really went off the rails in the final couple episodes, and I can't pretend that that didn't happen. But I really loved it. 

Ben 

I gave the show an 8.5. The writing does unfortunately get a little bit messy towards the end. They didn't really know how to do the epilogue episode as cleanly as some of the more experienced teams do. But that's me being, like, fair from the drama ranking scale. In my heart, this show is a 9. 

[Ben and Shan laugh]

This show was really good! It was a lot of fun to watch. People should go watch this show. It's a lot of fun. 

NiNi 

I am calling producer privilege to give the show a 9 from The Conversation. 

Ben 

I'm okay with it. 

Shan 

I'm good with it. 

NiNi 

We have an accord. Love in Translation gets a 9 from The Conversation. Daou and Offroad, thank you so much. 

Ben 

If you are a fan of BL, but you say you've gotten burned out on all of the school-based stuff, this is probably one of the better workplace shows. 

But, at least you know, that a windmill… 

[all laugh]

All right!

NiNi 

Moving on.

00:41:14 - I Cannot Reach You

NiNi

Our next show—we have officially reached the Japanese portion.

Ben

Bangers Only section of this episode!

NiNi

The first show that we're going to talk about is an absolute banger: I Cannot Reach You. Ben, what is I Cannot Reach You about?

Ben

Oh, Shan gets this one. 

NiNi

Shan!

Ben

Oh yeah!

NiNi

What is I Cannot Reach You about?

Shan

I Cannot Reach You Is a friends-to-lovers BL about two childhood friends who are in high school together, one of whom is a long-suffering pining gay boy, and one who is kind of an oblivious little chaos muffin. These character types might sound familiar to you, they are very common in Japanese BL. But what makes this story feel a little different is that it really sets out to deal with the deep angst that really comes in when you take friends to lovers seriously. 

This is not a fluffy show, even though it is light throughout, they're really digging into the pain of being in love with your friend, the confusion of feeling your feelings for your friend start to change, the shock that can come along with it. Kakeru, who is the main character here, learns in episode one that his longtime best friend Yamato is in love with him, and this whole show is about his journey to accept and understand that, and then also figure out how he feels about it and how he might be open to their relationship changing. 

It is, bar none, the best friends-to-lovers drama that I've ever seen in the BL genre. It is one of my absolute favorites of the year and on a short list of perfect shows that we got this year in BL.

Ben

NiNi?

NiNi

Well, damn. I love this unreservedly. I have, seriously, no notes. Actually, I have one note and the note that I wrote—I'm just gonna read it verbatim: I Cannot Reach You, to all of Japan, “Hey, guys, I'd like to introduce you all to this wonderful concept called talking. Please look at this adorable story about how talking can make your life better, and even help you find love.” [laughs] And that's my only note on I Cannot Reach You. 

I agree with Shan. I think it's a perfect show. It's so cute. It's so deeply felt. It is so centrally angsty. It had me deep in my feelings in a way that I have not really felt since His - I Didn't Think I Would Fall in Love, which is another Japanese banger that I love. It's a great show, easy to catch up on. It's not very long. It is so perfect. It's perfectly balanced, perfectly paced, perfectly written, perfectly acted. I love it, unreservedly.

Ben

This was probably one of the best shows that I have ever watched in all of BL. Very few BLs actually properly capture the experience of being closeted as a kid in a way that is not triggering. I was closeted—we talked about this on the show. It sucks. Ohara Yamato was in love with his friend Ashiya Kakeru, and he did not make his attraction to Kakeru something that Kakeru had to deal with. It's other people, who are so irritated watching the two of them interact, who intervene and sort of force them to deal with this issue between them. 

But here's the big thing. We can yell all day long about how characters should talk to each other and all this other stuff, and how communication is really important in romance and all these sorts of things. This is very true, but the thing is: when you're queer and you know the consequences of being publicly queer in this horrible, racist, homophobic hellscape, you don't want to force that on your friend. That's the crux of friends-to-lovers angst that is so critical. 

Yamato really does love Kakeru, and he doesn't want to force Kakeru to deal with being queer. They don't say it directly, but that is a huge part of the hang up here. That is so perfectly captured in a way that is not triggering. It is so hard to be gay and alone when you're a teenager. There is a real complex restraint that grips you when you're 17 and gay and struggling, and in love with your best friend, where you don't want to be alone, and you really want to be with your friend. But being gay hurts, and you don't want to be responsible for inflicting that hurt on them, that I connected to directly in Yamato, that is portrayed so, so well by Maeda Kentaro. 

And this show doesn't just do the whole “I love you” thing and then they make out or whatever. Like, “I liked you the whole time!” We watch Kakeru deal with the reality that he has to reframe his own relationship with one of his closest childhood friends. And he ends up finding attraction in himself as well, and he goes through the difficult process of that. That is not a switch that turns on. It's like, “Oh, shit, I guess I'm gay now because your desire for me is so strong.” What this show gets correct is, when you have a friends-to-lovers story, there's the drama of, “This relationship is really important to me, and most romances fail. Do I want to lose one of my critical relationships that underpins my understanding of who I am as myself for booty?” The answer in a lot of cases is no. That's a scary threshold to cross—your bestie is not your partner. 

He considers what this means for their friendship and their relationship, and how there is a genuine need to respond to someone's feelings. That, even if he is your best friend, the way that he's felt like this about you for a long time means you can't just pretend that that wasn't there the whole time. Just because you were wrong about what you were perceiving in your friend doesn't mean you can just bottle it up and walk that shit back. It's so expertly handled in a way that is adorable. 

Like both of you describe the show as cute, and that's sort of the point. This show managed to make some of the most difficult things about coming of age and being queer kind of palatable, and adorable, and really interesting to engage with. And it's so well done, the way that these boys play out the complexities here. 

And then we get to Episode 6, and Shan will remember when Episode 6 aired, because I almost called her on her personal phone line after I finished Episode 6. 

[NiNi and Shan laugh]

Shan

He was like, “sound the alarm, holy shit!” [laughs]

[NiNi laughs]

Ben

I was like, “Shan, There's a BL emergency! Get home quick!”

Shan

I was waiting to watch it until we had all the episodes and he was like, “Nope, no more waiting! Get on it right now!”

Ben

Episode 6 is probably the best single episode of BL of the whole year. Kakeru has a lot of self doubt as part of his character—really well executed—and he expresses that he can't understand why Yamato might like him, and Yamato gets angry about this, and is like, “Don't you know what you're worth?” and he throws Kakeru on the bed and has this moment where he crosses the line with him. And you can see possibly years of restraint breaking, and he kind of scares Kakeru. When he gets his senses back, he scares himself and flees, and has this whole breakdown where he despairs about this. This is so perfectly executed because that's how it feels when you're in the closet and you make a mistake and reveal yourself.

Shan

What's wild is that, that's just the end scene of episode 6. Episode 6 does so much shit even before that. This is the episode where Kakeru and Yamato have this conversation on the roof, where Yamato confesses. At this point they both kind of know what's going on, but Yamato comes right out and says, “This is how I feel. This is what's going on.” And then he does the classic BL thing of immediately after confessing, he tries to walk away because he doesn't wanna stick around to be rejected. 

And, something amazing happens in that scene, which is that Kakeru is like, “Hey, bitch, get back over here! You gotta listen to what I have to say now. You don't get to just confess and then run away.” And I was, like, fist pumping when that happened because it was, first of all, just a brilliant subversion of a classic trope. And he says, “I wasn't gonna reject you. I am still kind of processing this. I'm not sure how I feel about it yet, but I want to think about it. You're important to me.” And I just love that. 

Like NiNi said earlier, “Wow, the power of talking to each other instead of just having your emotional outburst and then running away—actually trying to communicate.” And that's so much of what this show is about. The moments where these two characters are able to communicate with each other clearly and get their real feelings across, that is when they are able to make progress in their relationship, and there are lots of characters in the show who are reinforcing that along the way. 

Hosaka is probably the fan-favorite character. He's kind of the wise queer kid off to the side. He's got his little barrette in his hair. He's watching, he's perceiving, and he's really pushing—quite forcefully, actually [laughs]—the two lead characters to, like, talk to each other and get their shit together. 

My personal favorite side character is Yamato's sister: Mikoto. She is just this quiet presence who has always had her brother's number on this, and knows exactly what's going on, and really chooses her moments to show up and be a mirror to him of what she's seeing, what he's doing, and make him think, and even give him some courage. She even has a couple scenes where she does the same for Kakeru. She's a great sister character of a type that we don't get to see very much and I really appreciated her.

NiNi

This show’s a banger. There's no reason not to watch it. Watch the damn show.

Ben

This show also released the sexual tension in a way that J-BLs very rarely do, particularly not in this lane of J-BL.

Shan

And it did it beautifully. 

And I feel like we should talk a little bit about the visuals of this show. I'm not someone who normally even notices a lot of visual style. I’m a words person. I really am pretty dialogue-focused, and I don't usually notice a lot that's going on with the visual effects in the show, but this one used them so effectively that even I kind of keyed in.

Ben

So this show uses a bokeh effect, which is this thing where you play with the focus of the camera to make these blurry lights appear. This is very common in anime to show that a character is experiencing heightened emotion. Like the emotions are sparkling out of them, and the show color-coded the boys's visual effect to reflect when they were experiencing intense emotion. It’s very obvious to the audience when the moment turns for Kakeru. Yamato is bursting with emotion from the first goddamn episode, and when it starts to happen for Kakeru, we're finally—“Oh, finally, these bitches are both on the same page.” 

The other fun visual gag in the show is, very early on there’s this moment at, like, an arcade or whatever, where Yamato gets a stuffed animal for Kakeru, which is part of him thinking he wants to be with this girl. He ends up keeping the stuffed animal and the stuffed animal ends up becoming the audience stand in. So, like, whenever a moment happens between the boys, they cut to the stuffed animal whose arms they've moved to create a different expression—him either being, like, overwhelmed with kilig feelings about the boys being cute, or aghast feelings [laughs] about something untoward suddenly going on. It's a great running visual gag.

NiNi

This show is awesome. It gets at 10. What were you guys’ scores?

Shan

Perfect 10, baby!

Ben

For those of you who don't know, NiNi and I are far more loose with our 10s than Shan. Shan is a stingy bitch when it comes to 10s.

[Ben and Shan laugh]

Shan

Understatement. I have watched over 400 dramas. I have given out eleven 10s total, but this show is one of them.

Ben

I also gave this show a 10.

NiNi

Okay, so I Cannot Reach You gets a 10 from The Conversation and we are on to the next one.

00:54:43 - My Personal Weatherman

NiNi

The next show that we're going to talk about on this what is definitely going to be a monster episode is My Personal Weatherman. Who wants to take this one? Ben or Shan, who is telling us what My Personal Weatherman is about?

Shan

Ben’s definitely gotta do this one.

Ben

My Personal Weatherman is a very kinky BL where a local weather forecaster has a live-in boyfriend who is an erotic manga artist. They have a very Dom/sub, and they are not very good at talking to each other. They actually do say a lot to each other in this show. They just constantly misunderstand each other—very refreshing for Japan. Segasaki is the weatherman who provides for them. Yoh is the manga artist who is very much struggling. Yoh sees himself as kind of a slave—he doesn't really necessarily enjoy the sort of housewife role he's been placed into, and resents that they seem to only have sex when it [doesn’t] rains? 

He pretends like he doesn't want to have sex with Segasaki, but then he has a whole blow up because they end up in a sunny [rainy] season where it doesn't rain a lot and has a whole breakdown episode where he just masturbates furiously for a whole afternoon because they haven't had sex in a while. It's a very fun reveal that the reason why they don't have sex is because that's what Segasaki thought they needed to do, which has really good payoff in, like, the next episode or two later. 

This show was a little bit complicated to talk about and watch. This very obvious kink dynamics going on in this, but people who are more familiar with Japanese home dynamics say some of this is actually fairly normal for husband and wife dynamics. And the show ends a little bit abruptly, which is part of my consternation with it. I kind of liked a lot of what the show was doing. I unfortunately watch too much BTS stuff, and it was revealed that some of the things that were going on with Segasaki were kind of improvised by a Higuchi Kohei, who plays Segasaki, which I think muddles some of the messaging of the show. 

But before we get deeper into that sort of stuff, NiNi, I know I bullied you to watch the show, and Japanese BL is not always your forte—reactions and thoughts on this show?

NiNi

So you're right that they are communicating, they're just willfully misunderstanding each other. I found that incredibly frustrating. But I still like the show. I did. I did like the show. I think that the miscommunications that they're having, because they are talking and miscommunicating that way, I am less annoyed by the miscommunication. If they were just not talking, it would be like a completely different thing. 

And then I like the settings. I like the side characters. I like the main characters. I like that Yoh cannot cook and Segasaki loves to eat his food anyway. Yoh’s a terrible cook, like terrible, like— [laughs] it's so bad, and Segasaki literally eats everything that Yoh will make with a smile on his face because he loves him so much.

Shan

He ruined a curry. I don't even know how you do that.

Ben

That's really impressive. Curry’s so easy. His curry was crunchy! Gurl.

NiNi

I think the thing that I'm not sure comes across, but in your description of the show, is that they've been together for a while. This show stretches on a little bit. It shows how they ended up together?

Ben

One of the things we got clarification on is like their cohabitation is fairly recent. The offer was made when they were still students, but the cohabitation is recent.

Shan

Which we didn't find out until almost the end of the show.

NiNi

Segaki thinks that he's being clear with Yoh. Yoh, because of, I guess, self-esteem issues or whatever it is is completely misreading the very direct words I think that Segasaki is using, but Segasaki is also being direct, but not entirely clear. So it's not that it's easy to misunderstand, but you could see how misunderstandings could happen. Yoh is kind of withholding even if he's saying things. 

Segasaki is picking up a completely different kind of thing from what Yoh is saying, because he thinks that they're in a loving relationship, while Yoh thinks that they're in a weird master-servant dynamic. So, they're in a relationship. They're just, they're in two different relationships. And so they're talking past each other. 

Yoh doesn't understand why Segasaki won’t be certain affectionate ways with him, and the minute that it becomes that Yoh actually expresses that in a way that Segasaki understands, he completely changes the way that he behaves towards Yoh. And he does do that softness and affection and stuff with him because he didn't know that that was what Yoh wanted. He thought that what he was doing was what Yoh wanted. It's similar to how Yoh is reading Segasaki. 

I found it interesting. Frustrating, yes, I will not deny that I found it frustrating. But I found the way that they chose to deal with the miscommunication trope, which is a big trope that Japan uses—which is a lot of times why I have trouble with Japanese BL, because miscommunication frustrates the shit out of me—but I think that the way that it was used in this show was very clever, and I liked how they move past it. I think that how they moved past it was also very interesting. 

So yeah, I think the show was pretty good. I would score it highly.

Ben

Shan, thoughts on the show?

Shan

So [sigh], sometimes, in BL fandom, I think that we as an audience latch on to the idea of a show, and then kind of give a show credit for our idea of what it's doing instead of what it's actually doing. And this is one of those shows for me. It's not a fave. 

I liked a lot about the show—a lot of the things that NiNi just mentioned—I thought were interesting. Like, miscommunication trope is not my favorite, but it's hugely Japanese for cultural reasons, for language reasons, so I'm very used to it—and I've seen really good executions of it. This show, I feel, did not have the quality of writing that it needed to support the complexities of what it was trying to do with these characters. And that showed through a lot, there were a lot of cracks in this show. 

You kind of alluded to one earlier, Ben, about how there were—what I perceived while watching—there were some inconsistencies in characterization in Segasaki in particular. And we learned from the BTS that that actually probably was an actual inconsistency, because it wasn't in the writing, these differences in how he was appearing in these different time periods. It was something the actor was just trying out on his own, and they kind of just let him do that. 

There were lots of instances of dropped threads or missing context to understand the characters' reactions and things. I read some awesome gap filler, thoughts, explanations, and interpretations of what we could make of the characters behaving in certain ways. To use an old Internet term: that's called ‘fanwanking,’ and that is when the fans of a thing have to do a lot of extra work to figure it out and explain it because the show has not done that work itself. And that, for me, was kind of the bottom line with this show. It didn't do all of its work, and I think that a lot of us were so intrigued by the premise—were so into the visuals of the show, liked the pair, liked the characters enough, to fill in those gaps and still really enjoy it. But for me, the show didn't get to the level of quality that it was aspiring to, and it didn't quite work for me, in the end. 

On top of some of those gaps that I think were kind of there throughout the show. You said earlier, Ben, I think, that it ended abruptly. It's not just that it ended abruptly, it didn't finish its story. It felt very unfinished. To me it felt like an intentional grab for a season 2—a play to try to get the fans wanting more so that they could maybe get funding for a season 2? And hey, if that's what they're going for, power to them. I hope they get the money. I'd really like to see them finish the story. But, I would have liked more if they would have actually finished the story initially that they were trying to tell. This show for me, it tried some things. It was interesting. It was enjoyable to watch.

Ben

[laughs] She said, “Girl, you tried.”

Shan

It’s a little bit of a Girl, You Tried for me! I'm not gonna lie, it is!

Ben

Here's what I'll say. I don't think all of the pieces of the show work together as seamlessly as they wanted them to. However…I don't care. [laughs] 

I liked what the show is trying to do. I really liked the really messy relationship between them. I like that Drama Shower went with a show about two people who are trying to be together and failing miserably at it. I do like what the show was attempting to do. I find myself far more forgiving to the show because it was trying things that BL doesn't do very often. I also just really liked episode 4, where Man-san comes to their house.

Shan

Yes, let's talk about Man-san, best character in the show. [laughs]

Ben

It was one of my favorite moments of the year, the bit where she knocked at the door and Yoh panics, and Segasaki’s  like, “Oh so she’s here?” and he starts stretching. He's like, “Don’t worry.” Like he’s ready to fight this woman [NiNi laughs] who he believes that Yoh was having a secret romance with on the side, and then the door opens and—she's been a Segasaki stan for a while. And they have this really great comedic overlay of [laughs], “Oh my God. I'm at my idol's house.” And all he does is charm the shit out of her for the whole episode, and piss Yoh off because he thinks Segasaki's flirting with her. 

I had so much fun with this show. This is the closest I come to a vibes rating. I tend to be forgiving with shows that are trying things that are fresh in the genre—or at least underexplored. And so, we’re mostly rating this show on the fact that it executes high heat in a believable way, for the most part, and was generally a really watchable eight weeks. I had a lot of fun with this show.

Shan

Mmhmm. I hope they get their season 2. I wanna see them finish it.

NiNi

I ended up giving this an 8. I think it was pretty good. The parts that I liked I really liked, and the other parts were just kind of a meh for me. ‘Meh’ is always going to be worse than ‘bad,’ for me anyway, unless it's offensive. So it drags it down from what could have been a 9 to an 8 for me. 

Shan, how about you?

Shan

In a shocking twist, I gave it a higher score than NiNi. I gave it an 8.5. Maybe because I, like you, Ben, appreciated what it was trying to do and wanted to give it a little credit for that.

Ben

I gave My Personal Weatherman an 8.5. So it can get an 8 from The Conversation. It's fine.

NiNi

So My Personal Weatherman gets an 8 from The Conversation, and on we go.

01:07:01 - If It's With You

NiNi

Our next show that we're talking about is If It's With You.

Ben

Oh! We're back to bangers! Let's continue!

Shan 

I got it!

If It's With You is about Amane, a high school student who fucks… You want me to say more than that?

Ben

No. You are correct, bestie, and this show is perfect. 

[NiNi laughs]

This show opens up with a high schooler having ill-advised sex with an older character, who's about to move to the countryside with his grandma. And his last hookup is like, “It's been really fun tearing that ass up. But maybe, when you move to this little, small seaside town, you can have a normal high school romance.” And he scoffs at the notion of someone like him ever having a high school romance, but little does he know he's in a five-episode MBS BL, and that's exactly what's in store for him! 

And it's great! He moves to the little seaside town. He immediately runs into a really hot guy who's super sweet, falls for him, and it ends up being mutual.

Shan

I like that this show is a twist on the classic romance trope of goin’ to a little seaside town, meetin’ someone unexpected, fallin’ in love. Like, there's hardly a more classic romance trope—we've all seen it a million times. But what was nice about it is that we had this young character who was already kind of jaded, and just didn't think that love was something he was interested in. And we got to see him form a really genuine connection with somebody—that was initially based on thinking he was hot and wanting to fuck him. Yeah, Amane definitely wanted to have sex with Ryuji. He made it kind of clear. 

One of my favorite things the show did was Amane is not in the closet. He's not ashamed of who he is, and he made sure that Ryuji knew, first that he was gay, and second that he wanted to be physically involved with Ryuji. He told him that straight up, and kind of braced himself for rejection because, as we learned, he had been rejected for that in the past by other friends. And then we get to see Ryuji react to that, and process it, and be like, “Okay, that's cool. I don't know that I can really reciprocate that right now, but I want to keep hanging out. Is that alright with you?” What a cool response to that. What a way to be, Ryuji, I love that! And then we got to just see them build a relationship from there. It felt very genuine.

NiNi

Amane is one of my favorite types, which is a masking sad boy. He's a sad boy who is pretending to be happy, and pretending to not care. Basically, he's putting on this front of being carefree when he's actually a very sad, very hurt boy, and Ryuji clocks that immediately and tells him, “Yo, you don't gotta do all of that around me. It's fine if you’re sad.” At that point I was not only in love with the show, I was in love with Amane. 

In fact, my only critique of the show is, I think, at the very, very end it pulled its punch. But… basically, Amane is one of my favorite characters of the year, and there's so much about Ryuji, too. Ryuji is a kid who's lost his dad, and he works with his mom in the restaurant where his dad used to cook. Literally, his dad is the one who taught him to cook, and now he cooks in the restaurant, and sometimes he doesn't go to school because he has to work in the restaurant, and his house is a little chaotic. But there's one corner where his dad's shrine is, which is spotless. 

Guys, if I start thinking about this show too much, I'm actually gonna cry. I think the show touched me somewhere very deep, and it's a thing that I'm still thinking about, even if, as I said, I think it pulled its punches a little bit at the end, it stayed with me. Also, some of the greatest set design. Y’all know I love Japanese set design. It's a fantastic example of set design.

Ben

Continuing the conversation we had with I Cannot Reach You about how it's very difficult to be gay when you're young. Amane tried to have the youth thing that Heartstopper indicates that we could potentially have, and Amane is crushed for it—the way many of us are crushed—accidentally! The best thing about the way Amane gets crushed is that his friend crushes him without realizing he did—excellent gay angst. Top tier. I feel the old wounds festering. It's great. 

NiNi

[laughs] Why are you like this?

Ben

[laughs]

So Amane is not well, and he's doing what many of us do: he skips it. Gay people who are closeted do not get to have high school romances. We don't get used to people perceiving us and what it means to be a couple. We skip so much of this, and then you become an adult, and these anonymous hookups—that are not very meaningful—and they can feel weird, because you're trying to be vulnerable with someone, and they don't want that. And it sucks to try and have intimate moments with other gay people that feel like transactions. It makes you feel cheap about yourself, and Amane understood that. And he's gorgeous. He's a funny, thoughtful, heartfelt little boy, and he already thinks he is just someone else for other people to hook up with.

Shan

I just want to say NiNi’s right that they pulled their punch at the end, and it's why this show isn't perfect for me. I loved it a lot, but the show started, as we’ve mentioned, with a character for whom sexual intimacy—sexual desire—was a big part of just how he lived, how he thought of himself, what he liked to do. And I don't like it when shows explicitly or implicitly imply that serious relationships, true love, do not have a sexual component. That sex is something salacious and dirty, and that love is something pure. And I think, because the show pulled its punches at the end here on the sexual relationship between Amane and Ryuji, I think that's a little bit of the implicit message that they put out there. And I don't love that. So I do have to ding them for that. They didn't finish strong.

Ben

I do agree in that regard and it was very unfortunate for this show that I Cannot Reach You finished, like, two weeks later. [laughs]

Shan

It really didn't help this show that I Cannot Reach You came up on its tail and did it better.

Ben

I really like the show. I really like the way that it set up a very initial premise of “maybe you should try a real romance, kid.” Like, you're still a kid. You can still have a good romance. It doesn't matter that you failed once: A great message to all the little gays out there, old and young. You can still have worthwhile romance. Shiro got to have a great relationship with Kenji at like 47!

Shan

There it is! I've been waiting for it! It's amazing! You made it two hours without it. Two whole hours before you did it.

Ben

I was trying so hard, bestie. I really was. I was really trying not to mention What Did You Eat Yesterday? in this episode. [laughs]

NiNi

I knew once we hit Japanese BL, it was only a matter of time.

Ben

I was trying so hard, y’all. Like, they were talking about the way this man couldn't cook, and I was like, “Ooh, I can't mention What Did You Eat Yesterday?” 

[Ben and Shan laugh]

Y’all got me so conscious about my favorite show! They dragged me, y'all! They ate me up! They tore me to pieces! 

But seriously, in terms of, like, messaging, I agree. They muddled it a little bit, but I really like Amane's arc. 

It's good! One of my favorites of the year. Let's go around the room. Ratings! NiNi?

NiNi

I give it a 10.

Ben

Shan?

Shan

I gave it a 9.5.

Ben

I also gave it a 9.5. I think it is a Conversation 9.5 because we all agree that it muddled the waters on Amane’s relationship with sex as it pertains to Ryuji.

NiNi

I concur. So, it's a 9.5 from The Conversation for If It's With You.

01:15:38 - Absolute Zero

NiNi

And now we are into the shit. [laughs]

Ben

Oh, oh shit! Oh fuck! It's two hours into this! I have almost finished my daiquiri. I am drunk. 

[NiNi laughs]

Let's talk about Absolute Zero!

NiNi

You're gonna get exactly three minutes on Absolute Zero, okay?

Ben

Oh, sure, that's all I need.

NiNi

I'm not letting you get into another New Siwaj thing. [laughs] Should be easy, because I didn't watch it, and Shan and Ben did not finish it. Ben, tell us what Absolute Zero is about.

Ben

Absolute Zero is a time travel BL in which a gay man in his 30s… No, he's technically 26. Oh my God. A 26 year-old gay man! His partner, who he lives with, has an accident. He's in a coma. He's having a bad time. And then a magic taxi takes him to the past, and then he does nothing for six episodes except date the younger version [laughs] of his boyfriend, and confuse the fuck out of them. And then apparently a bunch of time travel nonsense happens after this, and I had to be forcibly dragged off of this show [Shan laughs] because the clowns were worried for me. 

We don't need to talk about the show. Shan, you don't need to talk about it? NiNi, you don’t need to talk about it. I'm gonna look directly into the camera. 

[NiNi laughs]

New Siwaj, you had multiple opportunities this year to do something meaningful. I have had to sit here across from NiNi for over a year as Tee Bundit has put out three different shows, 2 and one half of which I thought flopped in one way or another. [Shan laughs] You had multiple opportunities to give me something useful to talk about with NiNi on this podcast, and you failed me, sir. 

This was your chance to do Until We Meet Again-style BL again, and you should have given us all something sad and melancholy to reflect over as a real good capstone of this year and you [starts yelling] fucking blew it for all of us! 

I cannot believe you, sir. You've wasted so much of our goddamn time. I cannot believe you embarrassed me on this podcast like this. 

[NiNi laughs]

Shan

New Siwaj is having whatever the opposite of a renaissance year is. 

NiNi

Ooh.

Ben

So bad. Like, you should have thrived under these circumstances. This is your bread and butter: caring way too much about little shit, but you didn't get any of the big shit right. This was a terrible experience. Literally, only two other people we know of finished your goddamn show.

Shan

And they hated it, every minute!

Ben

They had nothing positive to say about it. For over two months, this was horrible. What an absolute waste of genuinely good talent at every level of this production. Reportedly, everyone gave decent performances, and you wasted them on this empty drivel. What the fuck was this? You had four years of having the rights of the story. You had the actual writer of the novel on staff helping you write the goddamn script. And it was still this stupid empty mess, which apparently ends at none of it really occurring, but everyone having some sort of form of temporal PTSD? Like this was a 12 week Star Trek episode? What the absolute fuck was this?

[NiNi laughs]

Shan

I have nothing to add. 

NiNi

Hydrate, baby, hydrate.

Ben

Oh, girl you know I got my water right here. 

This show gets no rating from The Conversation. We DNF’d this show. We will never be going back to this show. 

I will allow the rest of you to offer additional commentary. Proceed.

NiNi

So, Ben, is this breakup gonna stick?

Shan

Yeah, right. 

Ben

We have talked about this girl. 

[NiNi laughs]

He's got a whole college BL with all of the B- and C-listers at GMMTV coming out in the spring. I gotta watch this fucking shithow, don't you worry. 

[Ben and NiNi laugh]

Shan

There never has been a break up, and there never will be a breakup. Let’s just be clear.

NiNi

They’re the couple that fights in the street, and then the next day they're all boo’d up. I hate you so much.

Ben

We are what they thought they were doing with Cher and Top in Only Friends.

Shan

Mew and Top.

NiNi

[laughs] I’m so mad that you called it Cher in Only Friends!

Ben

Oh, Mew and Top. Right, right, right, right, right, right. 

[NiNi laughs]

It gets a 0 from The Conversation!

Shan

An Absolute Zero.

NiNi

An Absolute Zero.

Ben

Oh man, I didn't make another windmill joke during If It's With You—If It's With You is about how— [laughs]

A windmill!

[laughs harder]

NiNi

I am so done with you. I am moving on. We are moving on.

01:21:05 - My Dear Gangster Oppa

NiNi

We're moving on to—I am just calling it ‘the main event.’

Ben

No, no, I'll do it, because you have to describe this one. You're gonna take this L, bestie.

[NiNi laughs]

On to our next show: My Dear Gangster Oppa. NiNi, tell us about [laughs] My Dear Gangster Oppa.

NiNi

My Dear Gangster Oppa is the B-movie’s B-movie. My Dear Gangster Oppa is a Thai BL based on a Korean webtoon that I have not read—because I never read these things—but I do know that it's based on a Korean webtoon, so I get a point for that. It is about the titular gangster oppa, Tew, and the titular dear, Guy. 

They meet playing some kind of mobile game virtually and they somehow become sort of close, or at least close enough that when the gaming team decides that they're going to meet in real life, all the other gamers are like, “Guy, you ask Oppa to come to the meet up, because he'll come if you ask him to.” Well, at that point they thought it was a her because Oppa plays with a female avatar because of reasons.

Ben

Naive assumptions.

NiNi

[laughs] The point of the matter is Oppa’s a gangster, like legit—guns, beatings, stabbings.

Ben

He has murdered people!

NiNi

He has absolutely killed people, and Guy is just a sad gay boy in love with his bestie since high school… 

I'm sorry guys, I'm doing a terrible job of describing the show.

Shan

It's not you, NiNi, it's the show!

Ben

I'll back you up. It starts off as a show about gamers, and two of them falling for each other, and then decides to become a shitty mafia BL.

NiNi

[gasps]

Shan

A boring mafia BL.

Ben

There it is. It becomes a boring mafia BL.

NiNi

Shan and Ben are stabbing me through the heart right now. I just want to let you, the listeners, know.

Ben

Well, how about you climb over the wall wearing your kneepads and drop onto—[Ben and NiNi laughs]—the mattress?

NiNi

That's why it's a B-movie’s B-movie, Ben!

Shan

No, listen. NO!

NiNi

Okay, the show had—the show had ideas.

Ben

Did it?

NiNi

It had ideas. Some of the ideas were really good. The execution of the show is terrible. Some of it is terrible. I—okay, it's all terrible by accident. Like none of this is done on purpose. Do not get me wrong. It is very, very bad.

Ben

They hired the most juiceless boys, and then pretended that they had juice. That was not good. Like if you had— 

Oof. I have my own read. Finish talking about your little show you had fun with before I cut it to pieces.

NiNi

This show is not good. It's not good. I am not defending it on any type of quality grounds. I just enjoyed the fuck out of it. That's all I'm saying. It was trash. You could see all the seams, as Ben has intimated. You can see the stuntee's knee pads and elbow pads. You can see them throwing themselves off of things and falling onto the barely-hidden mats. Oh my God, it's so bad. It's so bad that I laughed my ass off for eight weeks. I'm sorry, I had a good time.

Shan

Let me give NiNi some credit. I just binged this show this week, and I was genuinely having fun with it for the first half—the same vibe that NiNi’s talking about. Like I was, like, “This is hilariously bad, but it's kind of funny.” 

[laughs] We have to talk about the bright orange scar makeup. 

Ben

Do we?

Shan

Did they not have red or black in their makeup kits? They put these fucking neon orange scars on him [laughs], and it was the worst thing I've ever seen. But it’s like, that kind of shit is funny, it was a good time. But the show's biggest sin to me is not that it wasn't good. It was never going to be good. It's that it got so fucking boring, because it abandoned all the funny elements—the fun and silly and wacky things it was doing in the beginning with, like, the gamers—and treating the difference between them in some ways so seriously, and in some ways so deeply unseriously. That dichotomy was kind of fun. 

But then in the second-half of the show, it becomes all about this fucking mafia plot, and it was terrible. Like, it—it was terrible because it was so boring. The energy just sucked straight out of the screen every time I had to sit through these long ass scenes of Oppa talking to these different mafia guys about what they were mad about and why. I never gave a single shit. It was horrible. And that is why the show pissed me off, because it was fun, and then it decided to just be this dull nothing. 

This show, like Oppa, needed to quit the gangster life.

NiNi

[laughs] When I tell you, I actually screamed. Like, my sister had to come check on me.

Shan

It was all downhill from that line. That was the peak of the show.

NiNi

[laughs] How dare you? The show had a budget of $47.18 and it spent all of it on that scar prosthetic.

Ben

I watched this with Aiden, who you may have heard on the I Told Sunset About You episode. Aiden could not remember Tew’s name, and once he started wearing those horrible suspenders [laughs] Aiden just started calling him Urkel for the rest of our watches. 

NiNi

Now you see, that's fun.

Ben

Shan refused to learn his name and just called him ‘Oppa’ the whole time.

Shan

I stand by it.

NiNi

It's the B-movie’s B-movie. It's like B-exponential, like B-to-the-power-of-B. Okay, I'm sorry. I am that girl.

Ben

You heard many a Gay Rant from me over the last year. New rant unlocked for The Conversation: Gamer Rant.

NiNi

Oh, no.

Shan

Oh, boy.

Ben

We don't talk about this on the podcast, but I have a very long history of being very involved with a very specific video game. I have deep and meaningful relationships with other gamers. I was the best man at a gamer wedding where sixteen of us showed up. We were deep at that wedding—we had our own goddamn table. And I showed up as the only representative at a smaller wedding to make sure that one of us was present to witness the event. 

Gaming relationships are so important to me because when you're a weirdo and you don't fit in, It's easy to become close with people very quickly online because you're anonymous. They don't know anything about you. This show ends up abandoning all the interesting things about this weird collection of people who had found each other through this game, and decided to meet up together and extend that relationship into meatspace, to then become the weirdly worst mafia BL we've seen in a while, which was so twisted because the show clearly likes action film, and then embarrassed itself trying to mimic them. And clearly cared about violence, because Tew has a legitimately violent history that is handled with far more seriousness than even something like KinnPorsche did. 

There was so much that was way more interesting than being a shitty action schlock BL that this show could have been by starting with the gaming component, and it was legitimately infuriating for me to see this show use it as a cheap way to say these guys know each other, to then do nothing interesting with the mafia shit. 

I hate this show, so much. This is one of the worst shows we watched this season because this show could have been a fun action schlock B-movie if it was a fucking movie. But it asked for eight fucking weeks from me. I spent eight hours with this motherfucker—I had a lot of time to think about this shit. This show sucks way more than it even realizes that it sucks, and that's really the sad part about it all. This show is one of the worst [laughs] shows I watched in this season and I hate it.

NiNi

Shan, Ben is gamer offended, among other things.

Shan

I do think this show would have been a lot better if it was about the gamers instead of about the mafia.

Ben

There was a real opportunity for them to just only talk about their team stuff and for all of Tew’s gangster shit to be lore going on in the background, cause when you're hanging out with your homies online, their real lives are lore. Like, NiNi is in school. That means nothing to me.

[NiNi laughs]

“Is she gonna be present for this show? Oh, wait. No. She's gotta worry about, like, her real life stuff with her family or her school or our podcast. Well, shit, NiNi's busy. I guess I can't bug her to watch this tiny Taiwanese BL that I really like. It's not that important.” 

Shan does really cool shit in her real life. That means nothing to me! “Shan, are you available to watch this Japanese BL that I really like?” That's all I care about.

Shan

Always bestie, always.

Ben

That's the point. Gaming friendships—we don't really know what people do in their day-to-day lives. Like it would have been legitimately funny if Tew was, like, never lying about shit. Like, “Yeah, we just had a really weird stuff. Like, a guy came into the store. I had to, like, beat the shit out of four guys. I might have killed one of them. Whatever. We got rid of his body.” And they would be like, “Haha! Whatever! It’s time for practice.” If they had legitimately focused on whatever gaming shit they were concerned about and all of Tew’s mafia shit happened in the background as just fan fiction we all made-up, this would have been a fucking excellent show. 

But instead it was this disaster that ended up offending me way more than I expected it to. Fuck this show! 

On to Wahl, who was one of the characters I hate the most this year. Oh, I got words for that motherfucker. Don't think we're getting out of this recording without me going off about Wahl. Fuck that dude. I hate this dude so much. This character is not redeemable to me. Wahl only cares about Guy at the point at which Guy remains under his control. And the grossest thing this show did was have him accept that he can no longer control Guy, and then imply that he ends up with another guy at the end to perpetuate this cycle he has. He is so fucking vile. I hate him so fucking much.

Shan

I would just like to say that I concur on Wahl. That guy fucking sucks, and I hated him from maybe the second episode.

Ben

As soon as he did that stupid seal dance, I was like, “I hate this man!” [laughs]

Shan

You are done.

Ben

I'm like, “That's not even a whale, you stupid son of a bitch! Get outta here!”

Shan

He was a shitty friend, and as always, I got salty about him being forgiven without having to pay any consequences for his shitty behavior.

NiNi

We all agree that Wahl sucks. [laughs] We can agree on that. [laughs]

Ben

Does anyone have anything else to say about this terrible show before we move on?

NiNi

I am continuing to defend it. I will give it a 6.5.

Ben

Shan?

Shan

I gave it a 5.

Ben

I gave it a 4.

NiNi

So, Shan, by The Price is Right rules, you win [laughs] and the show gets a 5.

Shan

Feels right.

01:33:32 - Middleman's Love

NiNi

Moving on to our final show, and the one we all just finished today—well Ben and I finished. Shan watched the beginning and the end, which I think is a delightful way to watch this show.

Shan

I am very happy with my choices.

NiNi

So we all watched Middleman's Love. Yes, you might have heard me say on an earlier episode of this podcast that I would not be watching Middleman's Love. However, you should mind your business, because just because I said it doesn't mean it's happening.

Ben

I say I break up with New Siwaj every single season of the show. [NiNi and Shan laugh] It's whatever. We don't care.

NiNi

So I watched Middleman's Love, and I have actual real thoughts. But first we gotta tell the people what Middleman's Love is about. So, Ben, take it away.

Ben

Middleman's Love is a spin off from Bed Friend. Jade is a middle child and used to being overlooked by his family and his friends. They've got some interns at work. He doesn't realize that his intern has an enormous crush on him, and so is using his fudanshi eyes to try and hook him up with another intern, and slowly comes to realize the intern actually has legitimate feelings for him as we unpack Jade's own hang ups as it comes to love. 

While there are a lot of things I ended up enjoying, the show attempts to be comedic in a way that was really divisive and it ends up being kind of a mixed bag. Bed Friend is a really dramatic show, and while I don't think all of us currently here agree about how well Bed Friend did these things, Middleman's Love as a really comedic tonal shift doesn't always work because they're relying on Yim to be comedic as Jade in a way that makes you ask legitimately as Shan likes to say, “Why would anyone want to fuck this man?”

Shan

[laughs] Well, I did wonder why anyone would want to fuck this guy.

Ben

And that is honestly a legitimate question to ask early on in this. This ends up getting a little bit of Cheewin’s stuff—and I’ll let NiNi have that part—’cause she's much kinder to Cheewin about this than I am. But that's basically the gist of it. Jade is a middle child who's used to being overlooked and playing supporting role to other people who comes to realize that he can have love, too. 

NiNi, your thoughts on the show?

NiNi

That's it in a nutshell. I have a lot of thoughts on this show because it helped me clarify a lot of things about Cheewin. 

Now I get to say some lore and some BTS stuff because I know things too, Ben. This was originally cast with Jimmy and Tommy, with Tommy as Jade and Jimmy as Mai.

Ben

That would have been way better. [laughs] That would have been way better!

NiNi

Hold on. Hold on. Let me finish. While I think that Tommy would have made a better Jade, I actually prefer Tutor’s Mai to what we probably might have gotten out of Jimmy. 

I have a lot of Cheewin feelings about this show, because some of the things that I enjoy about Cheewin is that he likes to examine artifice and performance, and the things that we're hiding when we put on these big personas and personalities. And he explores that through a lot of sometimes-cringey humor, which I really like. It's the Secret Crush on You thing. It's certain parts of Make It Right. It's certain bits of Bed Friend? 

Basically, Cheewin likes to look at artifice and then puncture it. Cheewin likes to look at what makes people present weird and unpack that, and he likes to unpack that using sex because I think that Cheewin thinks—and I kind of agree—that sex is a revelatory experience. I suppose you can hide while you're having sex, but it's incredibly difficult, especially if you feel something for the person that you're having sex with. I personally find it interesting to watch that. 

I think that this show was miscalibrated, and not just in the acting or the tone. Unlike a lot of people, I actually do like cringe humor and some of the slapstick that we get in Thai comedy. I actually enjoy that stuff. It doesn't put me off. I think that the way that Cheewin uses humor in Middleman's Love is way better than how he used it in Bed Friend, and how he built it in Bed Friend. I think that the humor here, the comedy here, has done better. I think that Yim is not great at the comedy, and since Yim's character is the central character of Middleman's Love, it doesn't work. 

Plus, the story doesn't need eight episodes and Ben and I often talk about when something's too long, because I like a long show—Ben does not. This story was eight episodes and I think it could have been done in four. I like parts of the show. I like some of the things that the show is trying to do. I think that it mostly does not succeed.

Ben

Shan, you watched the first episode. [laughs] You were horrified by bobble heads in the intro—

Shan

[moans] I still have nightmares.

Ben

—and the general cringey humor. And then you came back for the finale. How about you talk about your experience with this show?

Shan

Definitely accurate to say that I bounced hard off this show after watching the first episode, and I definitely wasn't alone in that. In talking to other people we know who are watching it, a lot of folks had that reaction. 

NiNi has already touched on why—the humor was not quite calibrated correctly, and the performer who had to hold up the whole show wasn't really up to the task, unfortunately. That's just what happened here. And so, for some of us, I think getting through that super uncomfortable cringe humor with a performer who wasn't quite able to carry it was just really difficult. 

I struggled through the first episode. The bobbleheads really got me off on a terrible start. I hated those fucking things [laughs]—they still haunt me. And just throughout, I didn't really understand what I was supposed to be taking from the way Jade was being presented to me. He didn't feel like a real person. It was way too much. I didn't understand why this hot guy in the office was supposed to be looking at him with interest, given what we had seen of him. It just wasn't computing for me and I wasn't buying it. 

I didn't intend to fully drop the show, but then the following week I left on a long trip. And while I was gone, I missed the next three episodes. By the time I got back, I was just like, “You know what? No, I'm not taking this back up. I'm just gonna wait and see what you all told me after it finished.” And so, I kind of knew the show wasn't for me, but I wasn't opposed to the idea of it. I like an ugly duckling story. I like a story about someone finding their confidence and being able to accept that they are worthy of love. Like, that's a worthwhile story to tell. And so I'm not anti-The Middleman's Love. It just didn't quite work for me. 

The show finished this week. I decided to come back and watch the finale, just to kind of see where it landed, and [laughs] I actually think that was a great way to watch the show. If you, like me, are just not into the show's style and humor, you can watch the first episode and then you can watch the last episode, and you really won't miss any narrative beats—like it's super clear. The plot is very straightforward. You will be able to pick up in the last episode and understand everything important that has happened, and why the characters are where they are now. And you'll get to see Jade and Mai kind of settle into this relationship. 

And I thought that was nice. I enjoyed watching the finale. I liked getting to see a Jade who had seriously toned down some of the quirks of the first episode—a Jade, who seemed a little bit more confident—but still the same character. And I really enjoyed what they did with the physical intimacy in this episode. 

First of all, let me just give a cautionary note. If you are not watching this show on iQIYI, you are not seeing the whole show. I watched the finale on Gaga and got to the end and was like, “Where are these sex scenes that I heard about?”

Ben

The trust that Shan has in me [Shan laughs] she watched the whole show cut and was like, “Ben would never lie to me about sex scenes.”

Shan

You told me there were sex scenes in this!

Ben

“He used the Rihanna GIF. There is sex in the show.” [laughs]

Shan

And I will find it! So I did find it. [NiNi laughs] I went to iQIYI and I found it. So definitely watch it there. 

But I loved what they did with it because they really used the intimacy scenes well to convey these two settling into their relationship to convey Jade over time becoming more comfortable with their physical intimacy—finding his own power in it, finding his own agency in it. The performers did a great job on those scenes. I was incredibly impressed by it, impressed by the show's ability to take those characters from point A to B like that. 

If this show maybe wasn't entirely for you—if you, like me, dropped it in the beginning—I'd say maybe dip back in for the finale and enjoy a good time.

Ben

I like the idea of Jade a lot. I like the idea of a character who's had negative experiences feeling like he doesn't get priority from his family, ‘cause he's not the oldest and he's not the baby, not expecting a whole lot. And I like the idea of Jade having two really fucking hot friends in King and Uea, and just getting used to people being more interested in them, so not really seeing himself as a priority. And then he had like one relationship where he was literally told, “You were so weird and disgusting that no one wants to be with you.” 

I kind of get it with Mai. It structurally works. Mai is very pretty. He's generally very good at his job. He's kind of charming, but not overwhelmingly so. He's just naturally very pretty and nice to people, and fairly amenable and good at what he does. And he's really into Jade because he thought Jade was really kind and competent the first time he saw him. The flavor of this could have been correct, but then, like, they added way too much sugar. It’s just not great as a result. 

It's frustrating because Cheewin's ideas, as they're exemplified through the characters created for this show in Gus and Tong—and what he does with Jade and Mail—work really well. But the show is unfortunately really inessential. The people who watched this show were coming from Bed Friend, and I don't feel like this show really plays well as a Bed Friend extension or side story sort of experience. I think a lot of people brought the wrong energy to this show, and it took us weeks of recalibration to find something meaningful in it. And I don't think it finishes strong, because while I appreciate Cheewin’s giving the gays an extended boyfriend epilogue, an hour of watching people just be kind of cute boyfriends with no real drama on the table is kind of boring to watch in a TV show? And there's way more drama in watching people try to be boyfriends and deal with the consequences of actually being together. 

There's a great moment where they talk about their past exes and what that means for them, what they're bringing to the current relationship. How they want to handle drama going forward. I thought that was really good. I thought the fact that Jade asked for sex was really good, and then he got it. I don't approve of Mai biting that man's motherfucking glasses—

NiNi 

[laughs] I approve!

Ben

—and then tossing them around.

Shan

Ben, he licked his glasses off! Licked! [NiNi laughs] It’s a very important detail! I don't want you to get it wrong!

NiNi

[laughs] Shan, I don't know about you but personally I approve.

Shan

I did approve. I was very into that!

Ben

I actually liked when Mail wore the glasses in the second sex scene we got.

NiNi

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Shan

A lot of good glasses material in these scenes.

NiNi

Top-tier, absolutely no notes, no complaints there, none whatsoever.

Ben

This show was a lot of fun when it wanted to be. And when it wasn't, it kind of sucked. NiNi, you don't spend a lot of time in the pulps, but My Dear Gangster Oppa and Middleman's Love? This is what the pulps are like. There are things that are worth talking about, and then there are things that are not. These shows are almost always kind of bad, but there's kind of something interesting that won't happen in the big network shows.

NiNi

I have been convinced into pulps before. I have enjoyed pulps before. We have discussed this before. I am not opposed to a good pulp, but it's gotta be a good pulp. The flaws of these two shows aside, I had a really good time with them, and I found things not just to enjoy, but also to give me a little bit to think about. Not like a ton to think about, granted, but they give me stuff to think about in both of these shows. And, for me, that's why I landed up more or less in the same place with them. 

I gave Middleman's Love a 7. I think that's a perfectly reasonable score for it.

Ben

I gave this show a 6, not because I think it's bad or necessarily boring, but as I've explained with my rating system before, a 6 means the show is not offensive but I really truly think the only people who gain value from giving this show the eight hours-plus that it asks for is people who really give a shit about BL as a genre.

NiNi

Shan, what about you? How are you rating your short version BL cut?

Shan

I mean, obviously I didn't fully watch the show properly, so take it with a grain of salt, but this feels like a 6 show to me. That's what my heart is telling me it's a six.

NiNi

I will allow y'all to fully average down to 6.5 under protest.

Ben

That's not how math works, but okay.

NiNi

Listen, we gave up on math a long time ago on this show. Okay, just accept it and move on.

Ben

I think 6.5 is fair.

NiNi

If you like cringe comedy, I'm not saying that this show does cringe comedy as well as some other shows have done cringe comedy. And I bring up here Secret Crush on You because it's by the same creator, and it is some pinnacle cringe comedy—like some fantastic cringe comedy—that is just not replicated here. But if you like cringe comedy, there's something in here for you. If you like Thai-style slapstick, there's something in here for you. 

That's all I'll say about it.

01:49:07 - Final Thoughts and Girl, You Tried

Ben

On to the final event: Girl, You Tried Winter 2023.

NiNi

So the Fall shows, there were some that tried and succeeded. They don't count for this award. Bye-bye, two-out-of-three Japanese BLs that we just talked about. So, My Personal Weatherman is in contention for Girl, You Tried.

Ben

Oh, then it wins.

NiNi

[laughs] Let's see what else we have here. We have Kiseki, which didn't try. Shan, do you think that Kiseki tried?

Shan

No, it did not try to be a coherent show. It cannot get the Girl, You Tried.

Ben

Thank you, Shan.

NiNi

So Kiseki is out of contention. Dangerous Romance sucked. It's not in contention for anything. Love in Translation is too good to be in contention for Girl, You Tried—that goes. Absolute Zero? Pfft, forget about it. My Dear Gangster Oppa, it definitely tried something.

Shan

Did it?

NiNi

I think it did. 

Ben

Hmm.

NiNi

Ben really just unmuted just to go “Hmm” and go back on mute. Okay, fine. It's going into contention. And Middleman's Love. I think Middleman's Love did try, and I think that the execution of it was off. Not that it was necessarily bad, but that it was off. So if I had to put a Girl, You Tried contest together right now, it would be between My Personal Weatherman and Middleman's Love. 

So, Shan, for you, very important vote now. My Personal Weatherman versus Middleman's Love for Girl, You Tried.

Shan

Oh, this is a hard one, ‘cause I think of the Girl, You Tried designation as, like, being for a show that got really close to being what it wanted to be—like almost got the execution right and then kind of just missed the mark. So for me, I think I'm going to have to give that to My Personal Weatherman between these two shows. I think it did have ambitions, and I think it did know what it wanted to be with clarity, and it just fell a little short on the execution. Whereas, I think Middleman's Love was a little bit messier and didn't have as clear of a vision of what it was doing?

NiNi

Okay, that's one for My Personal Weatherman. Ben, I already know your answer, but come on. Explain it to the people.

Ben

Hello, people. 

[Ben and NiNi laugh]

So when we were first planning this episode, the Girl, You Tried debate was between My Dear Gangster Oppa and Middleman's Love, but I didn't realize how much I fucking hated My Dear Gangster Oppa until we got here and I was talking about it. And I was, like, “You know what, actually.” 

I would have given it to Middleman's Love because Cheewin was trying to do the things that he likes to do, but now that you put My Personal Weatherman in contention, I gotta give it to that one. I think My Personal Weatherman is trying things that are harder to do than Middleman's Love. I think the ideas of that show are way more cogent, and easier to access and have a conversation about with people than something like Middleman's Love.

NiNi

Okay, so for me, if I had to choose who attempted the higher degree of difficulty, it would be Middleman's Love. It's a high wire act. It's so easy to fall off. If I have to think about who got closer to their intentions, I would say it's My Personal Weatherman. 

Girl, You Tried has a criterion, which is a strong premise with some sort of flaw/failure in the execution. But it has also become somewhat of a personal Rorschach test for us as we go through the shows, and attempt to unpack what it is that we think they did well, what it is we think they did badly, what it is we enjoyed and didn't enjoy. And that enjoyment component does have something to do with how we end up on a Girl, You Tried. 

If they're tied right now based on those other criteria, and I have to think about what I personally enjoyed more, I would have to give it to Middleman's Love. 

Shan and Ben outvote me. Boohoo. I'm gonna go cry about it.

Ben

I don't want to walk away from this particular recording pretending like I don't like Middleman's Love. The spirit inside of it is worth acknowledging.

Shan

I think both of these shows are worthy of talking about as shows that tried to do somethin’. I think for me, My Personal Weatherman just gets a little bit closer there and it's doing a little bit more.

NiNi

I think that's a good place to leave it, so that's going to wrap us up on Tens and Chops, our first ever full grab bag episode. So this is Volume One, hopefully with many more to come. 

Next up, the VIIB Awards. I'm looking forward to that. I'm excited. 

Anyway, we out. Say “bye” to the people, Ben. 

Ben

Peace! 

NiNi

Shan, say “bye” to the people.

Shan

Bye, people.

#podcast #lgbtq #kiseki: dear to me #dangerous romance #love in translation #i cannot reach you #kimi ni wa todokanai #my personal weatherman #taikan yoho #if it's with you #kimi to nara koi wo shite mite mo #absolute zero #my dear gangster oppa #middleman's love #season 5 #winter series #ben and nini's conversations #the conversation #on art #thai bl #bl series #japanese bl #taiwanese bl #Spotify

[veryloovy]

I'm trying not to talk about shipping and shipping discourse much anymore for the reasons I will go over in a second, but food for thought for the MD fandom down below.

Seeing way too many people on places saying that Nuzi shippers are being annoying with it now being canon, and you know, I HOPE you guys aren't harassing people over what they ship, but this is a street that goes both ways. Nuzi shippers have historically always been discriminated for shipping it, so if they are celebrating a bit much I kinda don't blame them? Tumblr was always pretty nice to Nuzi shippers, Twitter eventually coming around, but TikTok is still super against the ship from that I hear.

Yes, I'm a Nuzi shipper myself. I have been stupid as shit about the ship in the past, but that was a me that I have literally never been until this fandom. I have never been called a pedo before for liking a ship. I have had nasty comments left on my fanwork for simply acknowledging it. Like, it warms my heart that people consider "Solved, Absolutely" one of the best MD comics out there, but even it was not safe from harassment over acknowledging a ship for like two panels. Jfc.

And after all that? I'm coming out the other side caring so much less about interacting with fandoms over shipping. I just don't care anymore. Stay in your lane and I'll stay in mine. Just be nice to each other and stop caring about this so much. Nuzi shippers, don't go out of your way to harass other shippers about Nuzi being canon because that's such a gross thing to do, especially after what we went through. Other shippers: please stop being so negative over Nuzi, you guys know the show's staff looks at social media right? They signed off on Nuzi being a thing, and if that's not your cup of tea that's fine, just don't start doom and glooming "THEY RUINED MD!!!" like some of you are doing. It's really embarrassing so see the fandom in this state. If you guys love the show, then act like it.

I will no longer be engaging in ship discourse. I'm instead going to be putting more effort into being a positive presence in the community. I'll be around whether the show stops at episode 8, or goes an additional season or two and I intend on that experience being a much more positive experience with the fandom.

#murder drones #yes this is a fandom critical post #everyone stop negging on each other because this shit's embarrassing #tad hypocritical this way but fuck it this needs to be said

[wingzie]

Hi.

Your experience as a Jikookers is the same as the experience of Taekookers. Extreme shippers fighting and having meltdowns on the TL make a lot of people equate the unit name with these behaviors.

Sadly the first thought that came to my mind when Jimin mentioned JK is that tkk would make a scene about it. Instead of just feeling relief they are doing well, or just comfort we're getting news, I felt dread. And the worst is I was right.

I'm really struggling with the state of the fandom now, especially twitter fandom. People say you just have to curate your online experience and most sane armys are just taking a break from SNS and everything will get better once the guys start coming back from MS. I'm not this optimistic.

I've been thinking finding fellow ARMY irl could be better. But there's still a good chance to meet someone you would block straight away online.

I'm not a very social person. I used to come online to find people remisniscing, celebrating, sharing.. There's always been hating but now it feels like it's only hating (and comparing numbers). There was a clear shift from COVID on. It's not just solo endeavors and MS. You said it, how the way to handle things has changed.

I don't know how to fend off all the negativity any more than I know how to casually meet ARMY offline. I dream of an ARMY community manager, of a campaign about mental heal, abusive relationships (how many think they know better than the members what's good for them and think they are actually showing love and support when they are just being abusive), how to make the parasocial relationship a positive thing, etc.... A lot of these people who make ARMY spaces unbreathable actually need help.

Hi Anon! I'm sorry you feel this way. I feel like some Army experienced feelings of anger or betrayal since the Festa Dinner, which has made them unfairly lash out on the members. Some cannot cope that we lost an aspect of control, but this has always been the members decision and we have to accept that with respect. As I said in my other post, the heart of Army is massively the same. Just this morning I saw a Tweet about the Purple Ocean from Muster and it reminded me of the Flashlight project during PTD. There will ALWAYS be discourse online. That is the reason for it's existence. I am in other fandoms and they all suffer from the same issues since Covid and Elon. However, for every "bad" person or post, there are plenty of good ones out there. If you look for then. I mentioned to someone yesterday that it's like when people always leave awful reviews for a bad meal, but very rarely mention when they have a good meal. That's why I always try to find a balance. Both Jimin and Namjoon have told us over the years to not engage with negativity and I have always taken those words to heart. Things in online spaces have changed, but I guess I am more of a fighter and optimist. For each negative post I see, I spend more time posting/repositing posts that spread positivity or praise. I see no point in boosting some random February 2024 account sprewing hate. We have to be responsbile or our own spaces and I DO think things will improve once Jin returns. There's still that shared joy and excitement whenever a member posts or content comes out. It's just that the negative is less contained than it used to be. As for events offline. My first event was for a local screening of one of the concerts. I then attended a few events for members Birthday's. With the HYYH anniversay coming up, maybe you could look into seeing if there's any events for it? It's also Sope's Birthday soon and I plan to go to events for each of their Birthday's, so that could also be an option. However, if you dont' feel comfortable going in person, then that is perfectly acceptable. I'm sure there will be no judgement! We all have our own ways. For example, I always buy a mini cake for each members' Birthday haha. Though I had some negative experiences offline, there have been some really good ones. That's just how things are and then you can take the steps to protect yourself afterwards. I'm actually going to another event with the same group I mentioned before. If it doesn't go well, then I will just leave. If things have improved, then I will stay and enjoy myself. I understand it's not easy though, especially when we have certain expectations. Please do look after yourself though and feel free to DM me if you wish to discuss further. Much Love Wingzie/Becca

[azrielgreen]

Do you ever worry that writing dead dove fic could negatively impact your writing career in the future? I'm kind of struggling with this, I've seen so many authors careers ruined by doing much less "problematic" things than writing non-con in a fic. I'd be devastated if by some miracle I managed to write a book that actually got popular just to be canceled by someone digging up my fanfic. From what I've seen the book community is even more harsh than fandom, there's no nuance or room for discussion whatsoever, when the hammer falls that's it and no one wants to be seen as being on the wrong side so they won't read your book. I don't want to limit myself creatively or have to be secretive and paranoid, I'm here to make friends, but I also don't want to shoot myself in the foot. I'm just curious if you've thought about how you'd handle a situation like that.

This is a really sad way of looking at things and I'm really sorry that the absolute state of fandom has people feeling so down and so heavily policed.

I don't ever worry about this.

One of the first messages I ever got about 'You're Divine' was someone telling me that it meant so much to them that I was open about who I am and upfront about writing fic because it made them believe one day a fanfic writer might break into the publishing industry.

There are THOUSANDS of professional writers who also write fanfic, many who are very open about it. I will be one of them.

This Dead Dove "Panic" isn't new, it comes and goes. This discourse is old as shit and just about as interesting to anyone except the people who are eagerly learning puritanical ways to bully and harass.

I always write for myself. I write what I want, how i want and I will share that with the people who want to read for it for as long as I can. I will content warn and create as many safe barriers for readers as I can. I will always write with empathy and nuance and authentic curiosity and i will always stay open to the changes i can make to be more open minded, more inclusive, to broaden my horizons and explore with an open heart.

I will not censor myself.

I will not stand on a pedestal and loudly decry others to detract attention from myself and my own works.

I will not stand for bullying and I will NOT quieten my literary voice because there are those who think that depicting rape is endorsing rape. I won't bow to those who seek to remove the context every single time and I will never bow to purity culture.

If I sell 10 books in my life, I'll know that's 10 people who really wanted to read my work and they did. That's amazing to me.

I have nothing but respect for those who choose to shield their identity, who write with pseuds, who protect themselves.

But if I can make one fucking person feel better about themselves and their interests, about writing darker material... if i can make ONE person feel unashamed and confident enough to write what they want to, then that'll be worth everything.

I'm always going to write what I want and publishing will be the same. I have no intention of watering myself down for mainstream approval.

The literary world cannot be made up of only ONE type of story. It cannot be censored. It must not be purified and sanctified. Some stories are ugly. Shocking. Horrifying. Brutal. Provocative. The expanse of human emotion of vast and complex. As humans, we sometimes have a need to experience complex, ugly emotions within a framed narrative of safety. We read and we write for so much MORE than moral virtue signalling. It's tiring to see some of the most important stories being blanket labelled as "problematic" just for existing. To see people ignore warnings and context and thoughtlessly embodying the modern puritan.

I'll never stop being who I am and writing for myself. Everything else is secondary. Once you start writing for other people, bowing to purity culture, diluting yourself... it's already over.

Fuck that.

Love, Az.

💜💜💜

#askaz