#i like some Targs individually

[alicentsgf]

the targaryens were built to burn themselves down and thats why i truly believe if Dany does take the throne in the end of asoiaf it should be without her dragons. the targaryens are conquerors. their house words are 'fire and blood'. those are not the words of a peaceful ruling house.

'we light the way' 'winter is coming' 'unbowed. unbent. unbroken.' these house words speak to longevity, not war. its why i'll never be a fan of the idea of a targaryen on the throne, no matter who it is. the most intelligent thing viserys probably ever said was 'dragons are a power men should never have trifled with'. you cannot rule peacefully if you're constantly threatening your people with fire from above.

#i like some Targs individually #like book Dany im a huge fan of #hotd #got #house targaryen #those other house words go hightower. stark. martell. in case anyone was wondering #anti targaryen #asoiaf thoughts #hotd thoughts #got thoughts #like dany isnt getting the throne... imo. hut if she Did

[mzannthropy]

Dammit all these House of the Dragon gifs are making me want to watch it! 

#house of the dragon #not that i didn't want to #it was just not a priority #not a fan of house targ but i do like some individual targs #rhaenyra looks so good #mypost

[anxiousnerdwritings]

milf!yandere!Rhaella x the younger!male!Reader from your yandere!Aerys headcanon except make it himbo!Baratheon!brother instead

who will inevitably kill the king and seize the city on Robert’s behalf but Robert uses it to his advantage to name the reader king instead of himself

imagine Cersei’s horror when the Reader opts to marry Rhaella and end the Targaryen dynasty on a more peaceful note

maybe Viserys and Danny are really his kids and lack the crazy Targe genes

Tw: Yandere themes, implied age difference, mentions of forced intimacy, and very brief mentions of miscarriages and stillbirths

Honestly, I love this idea so much! Not only does Rhaella get some much deserved attention and Milf!Rhaella at that 🥰😍 but we get even more Himbo!Baratheon!Reader!!

Since Aerys and Steffon Baratheon were best friends, I could totally see Steffon having fostered Himbo!Baratheon!Reader to King’s Landing around a similar time to when Robert was fostered off to the Vale. I could see Aerys having taken a liking to or grow a certain connection to Baratheon!Reader because he reminded Aerys of Steffon and their youth. It wouldn’t have been until after Steffon’s death that Aerys would look at the Reader in a much more carnal and twisted light than ever before. I could see Aerys having progressively separated Baratheon!Reader from solely being a resemblance to his father and seeing the Reader as his own individual as he grew and prospered in King’s Landing. No doubt that Aerys already had this more messed up desire and infatuation for the Reader stirring within him before Steffon and Cassana perished, it only took on full force and became something much darker after Steffon was out of the picture. Since his friend was gone than Aerys didn’t have to worry about Himbo!Baratheon!Reader being taken away from him back to Storm’s End, or inevitably have Steffon finding out about Aerys’ dark intentions with his younger son. Not that that would have stopped him or deterred him from indulging in his desire but it would certainly have made things more difficult.

Even before this messed up relationship between Baratheon!Reader and Aerys took place, I have no doubt that Rhaella would have held quite the soft spot for the Reader, he would have certainly been a breath of fresh air to her and the Realm alike. Even though the Reader was everything that made up a Baratheon, he had it in him to be so tender and warm. And Rhaella couldn’t help but adore that about the Reader. Not to mention how happy and easy going Baratheon!Reader always was naturally and genuinely, even in the face of imminent danger or death. And it wasn’t in an arrogant or hubristic way either, the Reader just took what came his way with a bright smile and a hearty laugh in tow (unless the situation called for him being serious and that could be scary) or he may have been too stupid to realize the severity of some of the situations he found himself in, no matter what it was that’s what made him so him.

Instead of being envious or resenting the Reader for the attention he got or the way people so easily flocked to him and of their own free will to do so without so much as any prompting on Himbo!Baratheon!Reader’s part, Aerys would become even more possessive of keeping Baratheon!Reader by his side. This would also certainly garner his mistrust and paranoia of the people around him and everyone else in general, excluding the Reader. At least to some extent but most, if not all, of Aerys’ paranoia directed towards the Reader would be solely due to his fear of the Reader abandoning him.

In the moments when Aerys would force both Himbo!Baratheon!Reader and Rhaella into being intimate with each other for his twisted entertainment, the Reader would be able to take Rhaella’s mind off of the extremely messed up situation and Aerys’ existence entirely. No matter what it is if the Reader is involved it’s like it’s just the two of them in a world all to themselves and she couldn’t be more content staying like that. In a fucked up way, this gross situation purely for Aerys enjoyment couldn’t have been a better excuse for Rhaella to be able to be with the Reader in such an intimate way that didn’t involve her breaking her marital vow or forsaking the Realm and the gods of her own accord. And surely she and the Reader would be bonded due to going through with having to deal with Aerys like they have to but they’re also connected physically now because of what Aerys has made them do. Not to mention if Rhaella did fall pregnant with Baratheon!Reader’s child/children.

I could see Cersei making Jaime promise her that he would keep an eye on the Reader for her when he becomes a Kingsguard, or rather she would coerce him into becoming her eyes and ears when anything had to do with the Reader when she couldn’t be there herself. Cersei would hate not being able to get to be with the Reader, she would really envy Jaime for getting to be physically so much closer to Baratheon!Reader than she could be (at least until she and the Reader were to be betrothed and then married, little does she know). I’m sure she even went as far as trying to get her father to allow her to stay in King’s Landing while he was Hand of the King so she could actually be close to the Reader but Tywin wouldn’t let her, not when Aerys was increasingly becoming unhinged (especially regarding anything that had to do with the Reader). When Robert’s Rebellion does inevitably take place, Cersei would absolutely be terrified for the Reader and his well-being. Not only is his eldest brother going against the Crown but Himbo!Reader himself is basically the King’s hostage now. Not like the Reader hasn’t been the King’s hostage this entire time but that’s here nor there. Her complete and utter joy once the rebellion has been won and it comes back to her that Himbo!Baratheon!Reader is safe and sound would be absolutely immeasurable. She literally cried once she heard the Reader was alive and well. Then it comes out that Robert has instead made the Reader king, Cersei can’t help but be overjoyed with the idea of being his queen. Sure she was perfectly content just being his lady wife so long as she had him but this was so much better. She and her darling would be the ultimate power couple of all of Westeros! That is until her world comes crashing down around her upon news of her darling choosing to marry the late Mad King’s sister-wife and queen. Cersei can’t believe it, she is absolutely gut-wrenched and torn apart. She wouldn’t leave her bedchambers for days, weeks, months even. She couldn’t bring herself to eat or sleep, she would be an absolute wreck.

Jaime feels torn; he feels for his sister, he truly does, after all who wouldn’t seeing their family and someone they care so much about in a state like that but he’s also grateful that Queen Rhaella will have a far better husband than Aerys ever was. Sure, Jaime doesn’t necessarily like the Reader, or rather he’ll never admit to liking the Reader but he does acknowledge that Himbo!Baratheon!Reader would be much, much better towards Rhaella. He may even think that he can bring his sister’s spirits back up but he couldn’t be more wrong which only shows him just how much more she cared for the Reader than she did for him.

Also, I don’t doubt for a moment that Himbo!Baratheon!Reader and Rhaegar were friends and pretty close to one another ever since the Reader was fostered to King’s Landing. Baratheon!Reader’s personality and overall liveliness would have immediately drawn Rhaegar in. Watching someone who enjoyed life and all the people around him so genuinely and unabashedly, not to mention seeing it be given in return tenfold would certainly strike a cord with Rhaegar. The relationship between the Reader and Rhaegar would definitely add to the Rebellion. I like to imagine that Rhaegar was attached to and trusted the Reader so much that he would have shared his prophecy with him. He would have opened up about his endeavors and what he was trying to accomplish, giving the Reader complete insight and understanding of what was going on which would only result in the Reader questioning his brother’s rebellion and whose side he should really be on. I also don’t doubt that Rhaegar either would have told the Reader in advance that Lyanna wasn’t stolen away or he would have the Reader their in person as a witness to their marriage (maybe Himbo!Baratheon!Reader even had a side thing going on with Rhaegar and or possibly Lyanna too and was involved in the making of Jon Snow🤷��‍♀️). Either way, his friendship with Rhaegar would certainly lead to some mixed feelings about his brother’s rebellion and the aftermath. Of course Baratheon!Reader is aware enough to see and understand both sides but he’ll be left feeling some type of way after Rhaegar’s death. Don’t even get me started on Himbo!Baratheon!Reader’s relationship with Elia. He would have been so good to her and her kids, protecting them from Aerys’ ire and even saving them from their fate at the hands of the Mountain. Let’s just say, Elia and her children would have been very much alive and safe, thriving in Dorne when everything takes place in canon. Not to mention, Dorne would be in debt to Himbo!Baratheon!Reader for saving Elia and her children, being 100% allies to the Reader and him solely. Also, if Himbo!Baratheon!Reader didn’t end up marrying Rhaella then he would have most likely married Elia.

I haven’t even talked about how Rhaella would react to everything. First off, she would be so supportive of the Reader being king, honestly anyone who wasn’t her brother-husband would probably end up being better than Aerys in general but Himbo!Baratheon!Reader certainly has her full support and loyalty. She is of course affected by Rhaegar’s demise but she also understands that that’s a part of war and that was what the consequences of Rhaegar’s actions led to. She undoubtably would mourn the death of her eldest son and what could have been if things had been different but this was her new reality and she would go forth with it for young Viserys and baby Daenerys’ sakes. Rhaella, along with so many others, would be surprised to hear that Robert isn’t taking the throne and the seven kingdoms for himself but rather choosing to give it all to Himbo!Baratheon!Reader to rule as he pleases. Robert never wanted the iron throne or the seven kingdoms, he wanted Lyanna and with her gone he just wanted to grieve without having to carry the unnecessary responsibility of what came with being King, so he picked the best person for the job and washed his hands of it all. A good majority of people couldn’t be happier that Himbo!Baratheon!Reader was to be king, especially Rhaella, and to see how he would salvage what Aerys left behind. Imagine everyone’s shock and surprise when it’s announced that Himbo!Reader would be taking Rhaella as his wife and queen. I like the idea of the Reader having brought it up to Rhaella behind closed doors first to see if she would be accepting and comfortable with it. She would absolutely be caught off guard to say the least but she’s also secretly giddy just thinking about it. The Reader would give a few reasons for his decision, two prominent reasons being to keep peace with the Targaryen Dynasty and also given what they endured with Aerys both together and separately (not to mention he may have very well fathered Viserys and Daenerys himself😅). Rhaella would certainly be taken aback but she can’t help but feel butterflies in her stomach, excited and anxious for her new life with the Reader and being able to bear his children.

Speaking of which, Rhaella would fear that she would face similar complications when it came to trying to conceive with the Reader, she was already so lucky and thankful for being able to have Viserys and little Dany after all the miscarriages and stillbirths she went through with her other pregnancies with Aerys. Imagine her absolute joy and happiness if she and Himbo!Baratgeon!Reader were to end up having a bunch of happy and healthy children without any problems both during and after the pregnancies. If that were the case, and she so hoped and prayed that it would be, Rhaella would be absolutely over the moon with her new life and happy, loving family. It would be all hers and Aerys wasn’t there to keep her from enjoying it. And she would finally get the love and happiness she desperately wanted and needed. No longer would she have to put up with the abuse and mistreatment that Aerys directed towards her, she would now be tenderly loved and cherished by someone who could appreciate her in every way possible. With that being said, there was no way in seven hells that Rhaella would let anything come between her and her darling now. She already had to put up with and endure a lot, she has every right to want to keep what she has now all to herself. Hopefully it won’t result in her taking on some of her late brother-husband’s excessive traits but even then at least she could play it off, unlike Aerys.

#anxious answers #yandere rhaella targaryen #yandere aerys targaryen #yandere cersei lannister #yandere game of thrones #yandere game of thrones concept #yandere concept

[ride-thedragon]

RESTYLING HOUSE VELAYRON PART 2

So this one is focused on the kids (and Rhaena and Baela because they are close enough and Laenas kids).

A point to establish quickly. The Velaryon boys (Jace and Luke) often match even as they're older, and while I don't doubt the intentions to show unity, we lose individuality so, I think there's a way to show that they match without it being so obvious. I call it the Lannister approach where it's the same or similar materials and colours, just different designs.

To begin,

Young Jacerys.

I do think that all the Velaryon boys start off in these gaudy pieces reminiscent of Laenor and Corlys. Rhaenyra, Viserys, and Laenor see it fit to dress them like all the other Velayrons. It's obvious that there are some discrepancies between them and the others, but the boys don't seem to notice it because they have Targaryen cousins who dress in Hightower colours and silhouettes, not everyone looks like their family. Because they are so young, though, and because the hypothetical colours would wash them out (colour theory), it just looks out of place and not like them. An array of blues and reds are used.

Older Jacerys

Jace continues with the blue and red trend even when it's all but confirmed to him that he isn't Velayron. King's must learn the history of their ancestors, and this issue isn't his to bear as long as he doesn't have to. He's as Velayron as Rhaenys and Corlys say, and Luke is still the heir to Driftmark. He will be Rhaenyra's heir. However, he takes more to black and red, still not forgetting the alliance the clear blue brings them. His hair grows out, but like the Velaryons, he styles it and / or decorates it with jewellery. The blues match more as he's gotten older. He takes the most cues from young Laenor and jewellery cues from his mom. The rainbow bracelet is an illusion to Jaehaerys' crown.

Young Baela

My sweet girl. Okay, so the Targ girls start in Pentos, having spent most of their lives travelling through Essos. I think they shouldn't look like the other kids. They look like little Laena and Laenor but not as out of place. Baela has a lot more freedom with dressy pants and can dress in green because her closest affiliation would he with Moondancer and Vhagar, not westeros politics. I don't know why they gave her locs, so I'm ignoring it. And lastly, her mourning/ funeral outfit is filled with Targaryen colours because she's a Targaryen dragonrider, and she doesn't have big ties to house Velayron outside her mom and her stories just yet.

Older Baela

SHE'S A TARGARYEN DRAGONRIDER. I never understood the whole we can't tell the Targaryen girls apart idea because they are never dressed in the same outfit s like the boys are. That being said, adult Balea is the ward of Rhaenys on Driftmark and takes a lot of style cues from young Laena and Laena herself. The girls have a freedom the boys don't have to wear one colour fully without questions of parentage and they take to that but Baela also wears blues and green together to match with moondance ,(not the greens). An Essos girl, born and raised big jewellery and dressy fabrics, are the move. Hair scarves are so elite.

Young Rhaena

My baby girl. Okay, so like Baela, she is growing up in Essos as a traveller, but Rhaena takes more to dresses. She's a girly girl with a love of pretty things, so she dresses in pinks, but also, imagine Baby Rhaena shrouded in pink, wanting a dragon. The space buns were the best hair decision to date from the House of the Dragon, credit where credit is due. I think she keeps Driftmark in her jewellery, though, because I don't see Laema not give that to the daughter that has locs. So pearls, and she'll be jewellery as opposed to Baela’s dragon aesthetic at this point. Hair scarves are so fun

Older Rhaena

Rhaena is a ward technically of Dragonstone. But she is another person whose personal alliance isn't tied to colours and so on. She can continue the pink trend. But to match Luke or Baela, she wears her blue, and to match her family, we get her reds. She takes more from Westeros than Essos, but she still keeps some things. Head wraps are so beautiful, especially when you don't want to show your roots.

Young Luceryes

Of all the kids, as the heir to Driftmark, Luke has to tie visually closest to the established fashion, which means big jewellery and headscarves on a little kid. It would be funny, but it's also tragic because he doesn't know any better. He looks the closest to young Laenor and Corlys, which is to say completely out of place in his outfits. Pearls for the boys are theme I love because it seems like a way tttto say we are of the sea without saying they're Velayron all the time. A tie to Laenor and Driftmark.

Older Luceryes

Colour theory at work, blue that looks good on him. I think he still carries on his house Velayron theme until the scene where he's an envoy and going for Rhaenyra, where he would feel more confident in her colours than Laenor. This is two days after Vaemond, and he's still saying that he thinks Vaemond should inherit. He should be due in clothes he feels safe in. I still think the theme of Velayron jewellery is the little anchor, even though he's sea sick and ocean and pearl jewellery. He's matching a lot more with Rhaena than anyone else. I think for the progression of Velayron, but Luke's version, he has a fade like Laenor without the locs. It was really easy parallel to his dad, who he thought was his dad and still is kept under that illusion in spite of his questions to Jace.

Joffrey

It's time for the best boy. He's a Velayron prince. I think he should be kept like that. Like a little Laenor, he isn't going through that awkward period of trying to look Velayron thanks to Luke and Jace. He just is. He was the only one Laenor got a say in naming, and he should embody that. He's Laenor’s boy.

#hotd #house of the dragon #house velaryon #jace velaryon #jacerys velaryon #baela targaryen #luke velaryon #lucerys velaryon #rhaena of pentos #rhaena targaryen #baela and rhaena #rhaena and baela #joffrey velaryon #joff velayron #team black #hotd costumes #joff is my fave #i love him

[ilynpilled]

i like overthinking this sorry ok so what’s interesting about the whole jaime sitting on the throne “just to sit down” bc it is just a chair bit is that yes, jaime has a particular disillusioned relationship with that symbol of power, and the thing is that that chair is like a gazillion meters up in the air or whatever so i do think it is a bit more complicated than just him having to sit down after #allthat, he could have very well just sat on the stairs lol. there was a more conscious decision being made on his part.

and this whole exchange is more about parallax, about an outside interpretation rather than what is canonically going on in jaime’s head. and i get that a lot of people think it is mostly “a remnant from the original outline”, but i do not think that means george wrote it with the intention for it to lock on a specific trajectory, i think it is a seed that can be gardened however he pleases, especially because of some heavy foreshadowing with him in agot already for many things that i think are pretty incompatible with that original outline. i do think there is a reframing happening in asos with that action and we can still make sense of it. but neither ned or robert were correct.

jaime’s experience leaves him with a very interesting mindset when it comes to “right” to absolute power like the throne. the image of a king figure gets torn down in every way: aerys obviously becomes a destructive person who was still born with right to that power, and him having that power has devastating consequences, but what also sticks with jaime is that contradiction in his death. how he dies in such an ugly human way. there really is nothing differentiating him from the lowborn rossart, in fact, rossart seems to have died with more dignity. the whole “equal in death/not equal in life” thing. the vulnerability of a king. i do find the “sword across the knee” bit interesting, bc it does mean denying guest right in the north. i wonder if that is just meant to play into a ned/jaime conflict and misunderstanding, or if george is insinuating with that imagery that jaime is guarding the seat in a more abstract way, and sending a message with his existence (especially considering what his role and the whole wildfire plot in the story being stopped and a king being murdered by a kg means on a less personal scale: the whole analysis of ‘what is power and who holds it?’ that permeates this series), almost like a warning, considering what goes through his head before he climbs up there. anyway, i do read it as an act of conscious ‘defiance’ of some kind though. if we go beyond what a 17 year old jaime can fully grasp at that point, he did break the social order by murdering his king as a kingsguard and that has implications in their world. that is an interesting precedent. and then jaime is so disillusioned by social contracts of this sort that he sees no difference between his act and the act of robert, ned & co, which is why he is so particularly frustrated by what he views as hypocrisy, ntm that robert tore the realm apart with his war in his mind and he rues him too. and then ofc with ned’s commentary of “he had no right to that throne”, like this is just the mindset of society, it is built on these constructs of rights and oaths etc, and they all serve a purpose in reinforcing a status quo. jaime all throughout the present text shows no concern for, or even an active rejection of, this construct of ‘right’ to that throne. like he does seem to view the whole thing like: “you can win that power with swords, power resides where people think it does, what does the rest matter?” (as per his targ romance with cersei delusion passage) so many of his thoughts and actions imply this rejection of the construct of inherent right to that power, especially through birth. he also does not view it as something with that much ‘worth’ in terms of what it means for the individual. it gets as overt as it can with “how much can a crown be worth, if a crow can dine upon a king?” etc. i do not doubt all this also bleeds into his continued rejection of his role as heir to some extent. and it all feels like the effect the aerys experience/robert’s rebellion would have on him and his relationship to power. though i do think in some way he does still crave an “aerys anti-thesis”, a “good king” he does not rue, and he can acknowledge this desire more when hope is rekindled in him. anyway, i do think him sitting on that throne is a symbolic gesture, maybe even a form of taking back control through diminishing its value, even more hard-hitting considering he does not want the throne himself, and then belittles it even more with his words afterwards.

and what is also cool to me is that there is a motif with jaime’s golden sword: ned especially is so fixated on it being tainted by blood, especially of his king, it is an image that he and others keep conjuring, it exists in the collective consciousness. 

and then what that passage reveals is that jaime’s golden sword does something very different than become tainted with blood in his nightmares. it is not killing a king, it is cutting down an endless stream of burning corpses. it also reveals that jaime is still haunted by something that never happened. i find it interesting that his conscious often goes to ned, even in the fever dream he expects him to come out, but he is wrong there too, just like how he is not the one that haunts his dreams in general. he even acknowledges it: “The moss covered it so thickly he had not noticed before, but now he saw that the wood was white. It made him think of Winterfell, and Ned Stark’s heart tree. It was not him, he thought. It was never him.” things are still much deeper than just that palpable and damning judgement he received for his finest act from that man, who in many ways embodied the ‘hypocrisy of honor’ in jaime’s mind.

#jaime lannister #valyrianscrolls

[martellspear]

— power went out and I ran out of things to think this afternoon;

— this is a anti targaryen restoration post, be warned :)

One of the most surprising things in the entire ASOIAF books is simply HOW did that family manage to be around for over 300 years. I’ve never seen so many individuals being so dense – of course, we have exceptions – but ?? Perhaps that’s what you get for the inbreed, the stupidity gene remains and grows strong and turns into a parasite that eats brains.

Let’s start with the C trio; A united the Seven Kingdoms because he thought unity was the right path to defeat the Long Night, which is great, but then he did NOTHING to actually prepare for it ?? The Wall was built by the Starks. In F&B we see that, Targ after Targ, the prophecy has little impact on how they conduct things; I’d love to say something like: fine, let’s blame it on time and wars (which, they caused) but ?? your ancestors' most important words about saving the place you, and your descendants will, live just do not carry enough crucial significance for them to be carefully passed down to the next generation?

Then, we have R. I will admit that when I first read the books I liked him - and although I still find him an interesting character, I cannot let go of the idea of how obtuse he is (it’s deeper than that in his case but I’m annoyed) -. Since I’m venting, let me just say that it completely baffles me how some still view RL as a love story; that man was OBSESSED with the prophecy, he drastically changed his lifestyle for it, but he’d abandon everything for love? And then… proceed to – likely – hide from his lOvE that her loved ones are dead (his dad killed them) while keeping said person in a place that, regarding both climate and social aspects, is detrimental for her. Furthermore, to defy and insult three powerful Houses because he fell in love with someone he saw a few times?

Yes, love can make people take routes they wouldn’t normally take, but the cost was too high for it not to be “means to an end”.

Coming back to my original thoughts: I believe that Targs are unfit to rule – if you want evidence, you can literally just open F&B, any page will do – and the couple good monarchs that family produced doesn’t make up for all the damage they caused since they sat foot in Westeros. They feel entitled to a land that doesn’t belong to them and are saviors because the Gods said they are ??

It's a funny concept when you contrast it with how the series ended: Cersei on the Throne, Arya defeating the Night King and the two last Targs with awful endings (that’s martelldoo): one dead and the other exiled.

Anyway, I just wanted to vent because the thought of a Targ restoration pissed me off this afternoon – it validates every horrendous thing that happened to those considered “casualties” and puts these people in that obnoxious concept we see in succession: no real person involved. But since “we” have the power to save the world, it was worth it and everything it valid, RIGHT?–

#anti targaryen restoration #anti targ restoration #anti targaryen #anti rhaegar targaryen #anti rhaegar #you have no idea how much free time I have in my hands until february #asoiaf

[agentrouka-blog]

Regarding that post about 'Magical Targ Gene Attraction TM~✨'- as someone who has tried to read Jonerice fics before, some of those fics really do feel like that. Just instant attraction and pulled by magic cuz they cant be bothered to write genuine connection and actual bonding and chemistry.

Honestly? At the end of the day the main reason why I dislike this ship so much is because it gives me way too much Pretty White People couple you see in a lot of YA romances. Its so boring and def not the type of ship I want for a series like ASOIAF

(post referenced)

Yes, boring is about the only way to describe it.

Magical leads with elemental imagery are heirs to fallen dynasty, propelled into leadership positions in run-up to apocalyptic struggle, somehow inevitably fall in love to reinforce each other's Very Special Status and, thus mutually amplified, fulfill their magical lead destinies - magically.

It's the most superficial and bland reading in the world. All tropes, no substance, no twist, no development, no meaningful engagement with the central questions of the book series. I saw it be a popular theory in the fandom way back when I was a casual reader and show watcher and had never heard about jonsa yet. I was bored to tears and went right back to focusing on my darlings Sansa and Arya and Jaime and Brienne - characters whose plots seemed actually connected to character development.

Jonerys - especially this unsurprising idea of an inescapable 🌟magical connection🌟 - has nothing to do with who they are as characters or the actual meat of their individual arcs. It, in fact, utterly relies on ignoring those things. It almost requires their attraction to be forced by external factors to overcome the logical barriers inherent in their very characters.

That's why it felt so startling and satisfying when the show seemed to veer right past that stupid theory and let them be enemies in Season 7 at first. Suddenly, there was logic, compelling and consistent conflict, a deliberate crushing of that bland development everyone had been taking for granted. It was exciting! It made sense!

(I was far away from discovering jonsa as a theory then, btw.)

And then they took that away. And it felt just as bland and unmotivated as the pairing was always inevitably going to be. It relied on ignoring their characters and their arcs as it was always inevitably going to have to. Because there's no 🌟magical attraction🌟 in an adult series about political power struggles and ethical ruling and conflict management in the face of apocalyptic destruction. Only a yawning, underwhelmed "why?"

I know why I don't believe this couple will be a thing in the books. It's bad.

#anti jonerys

[bohemian-nights]

I've been in both TB and TG fandoms and in my experience TG fans are more sane and have a better sense of humor, Targ nation and their crazy takes almost ruined HOTD fandom for me. A lot of TG fans treat most TB characters normally and like some of them, and TB fans seem to hate everything green and prefer a very one sided story where their characters are the heroes and another side is full of cartoonish villains. Also I don't remember seeing TG fans hating Rhaena and Baela for the fight or calling them bullies, usually, they get sympathy and their emotions are understandable. Although some may get carried away in their defense because TB fans love treating little Aemond as the satan incarnate who deserved everything that happened to him.

To be fair, it isn’t exactly hard to look more sane than Team Black.

From the “legally biracial” fiasco, calling characters half-breeds, comparing Black people to animals, the racial slurs, thinking Black-ish people are interchangeable, straight up admitting they don't want Daemon with a Black woman, labeling anybody who doesn’t support a tyrannical racist white woman a hater of women, calling other women c*nts but still labeling themselves feminists, making up bullcrap and trying to badger people into believing it's true, and upholding eugentic ideals about race and blood purity then getting mad when they are called out about it, at least half of them are certifiably deranged.

By default, Team Green does win because for the most part, people are at least smart enough to not take it to that level, and give the appearance that they are willing to have a dialogue without trying to beat you into submission, but they do have their moments.

I have seen people put down Baela and Rhaena for no good reason(they were well within their rights to be upset with Aemond’s actions and more importantly they did not even know the Weak Boys had a knife). Daenaera is attacked constantly(she doesn’t do anything to deserve the hate).

And TG is almost always trying to label Daemon and Nettles’ relationship as problematic. This would be fine if the ones doing this labeling were not also cheering on a teenage prince getting with a 40-something-year-old bastard servant without a penny to her name after killing nearly every man in said woman’s family.

If you want to protect Nettles’ from the evil pedo you should also want to protect Alys from the murderous psycho who made her into his concubine ☺️

I’ll keep it cute and leave it there because every time I open my mouth people don’t seem to like it, but both teams honestly suck which is why I'm team individual characters.

#bnask #bnasks #hotd fandom critical

[cappymightwrite]

I don't think Jon gonna love Dany in books if jonsa is endgame. Even if he is conflicted about his feelings for his half sister, the torment isn't suddenly going away if he would meet Dany. It's because those feelings are going to be strong. Dany is basically foil to Sansa character and even starks in general. Considering he had met people who reminded Jon of dany but in negative light going to affect his viewpoint. He had to forget everything to love her.

This is a very old ask, apologies! I'm going to attempt to catch up with a few of them, now that I've got a free weekend 😅 Anyway...

I think more and more now, I agree. They are fundamentally too different for love to grow there, certainly from Jon's side because through the characters of Stannis and Melisandre, especially, we start to get a real sense of how D*ny and Jon's politics will likely rub each other the wrong way. Death by fire is truly horrifying and it's through Jon's eyes that we see that horror firsthand:

Jon watched unblinking. He dare not appear squeamish before his brothers [...] The horn crashed amongst the logs and leaves and kindling. Within three heartbeats the whole pit was aflame. Clutching the bars of his cage with bound hands, Mance sobbed and begged. When the fire reached him he did a little dance. His screams became one long, wordless shriek of fear and pain. Within his cage, he fluttered like a burning leaf, a moth caught in a candle flame. – ADWD, Jon III

The imagery of the burning of the glamoured Mance used above goes some way to mask its real horror by describing his writhing in excruciating pain as like "a little dance," his catching on fire as like "a burning leaf" or a "moth caught in a candle flame." These are far more palatable images, small, inconsequential things to make this horror smaller too, to make it easier to withstand and to watch, unblinking. It's a very human response, on Jon's part, because how else to you go on, having witnessed something so horrifying, if you don't attempt to minimise it in some way, if only for yourself?

And this is just one person. One burning. I think you're quite right, Jon would have to erase this experience from his mind in order to love a person so cavalier with fire. And actually, even if he hadn't witnessed this, I don't think it's in his character to fall in love with D*ny, especially because Jon has also had the experience of somewhat being part of a democratic system at the Watch. I say somewhat because obviously it's flawed, but you know, they attempt to vote fairly on things, decisions aren't always down to one person. With D*ny, there is no taking a vote, it is her judgement at the end of the day and if she thinks you deserve to burn, then honey, you're burning, without any need to busy about setting up a pyre too.

I'm a Jonsa truther, but even excluding that... I think some readers are a little too happy to discount the politics of individual characters and families in favour of what would be "cool" for their fave — I'm talking about D*ny and Arya, D*ny and Arianne, getting along like besties, or just generally the idea of a Targ restoration.

You know, Ned had a very defined set of personal politics, of principles, an adherene to an "older way", and in Jon, as well as the rest of the Starklings, we see a continuation of those principles.

"King Robert has a headsman," he said, uncertainly. "He does," his father admitted. "As did the Targaryen kings before him. Yet our way is the older way. The blood of the First Men still flows in the veins of the Starks, and we hold to the belief that the man who passes the sentence should swing the sword. If you would take a man's life, you owe it to him to look into his eyes and hear his final words. And if you cannot bear to do that, then perhaps the man does not deserve to die. "One day, Bran, you will be Robb's bannerman, holding a keep of your own for your brother and your king, and justice will fall to you. When that day comes, you must take no pleasure in the task, but neither must you look away. A ruler who hides behind paid executioners soon forgets what death is." – AGOT, Bran I

Now, D*ny doesn't have a paid executioner, but like Targ kings before her, she is not the one swinging the sword either. It is her dragons who are her executioners with fire as their sword, and it makes you wonder... "a ruler who hides behind [dragons] soon forgets what death is." Contrast this with Ned and the Stark boys at the very beginning of AGOT, and then again, with Jon not only witnessing the burning of (the latter revealed to be glamoured) Mance, but also ordering archers to mercy kill him:

One arrow took Mance Rayder in the chest, one in the gut, one in the throat. The fourth struck one of the cage's wooden bars, and quivered for an instant before catching fire. A woman's sobs echoed off the Wall as the wildling king slid bonelessly to the floor of his cage, wreathed in fire. "And now his Watch is done," Jon murmured softly. Mance Rayder had been a man of the Night's Watch once, before he changed his black cloak for one slashed with bright red silk. Up on the platform, Stannis was scowling. Jon refused to meet his eyes. – ADWD, Jon III

And to bring this back round to Jonsa:

The smile that Lord Janos Slynt smiled then had all the sweetness of rancid butter. Until Jon said, "Edd, fetch me a block," and unsheathed Longclaw. – ADWD, Jon II

So... I'm sorry but, ya know, Targs and Starks, they're chalk and cheese really, and Jon is a true Stark, no matter his name or parentage. As the story progresses, D*ny is leaning more and more into the exceptionalist T*rg, fire and blood way, whereas Jon will always adhere to that "older way," a way that reveres ones duty to others, to what is fair and just, above all, and often the following of these principles comes at the cost of your own personal longings:

He wanted it, Jon knew then. He wanted it as much as he had ever wanted anything. I have always wanted it, he thought, guiltily. May the gods forgive me. It was a hunger inside him, sharp as a dragonglass blade. – ASOS, Jon XII Jon said, "Winterfell belongs to my sister Sansa." – ADWD, Jon IV

You're right, D*ny and the T*rgs are very much foils to the Starks and we know how much Jon loves the Starks through his execution of Janos Slynt (who took part in Ned's execution), his defence of Sansa's inheritance, he striving to save (who he believes to be) Arya etc., etc. D*ny could be the messiah with bells on and even then she wouldn't come out on top over Jon's loyalty to and love of the Starks. It's just in him, deep in the very marrow of him:

"[...] you must do what needs be done," Qhorin Halfhand said. "You are the blood of Winterfell and a man of the Night's Watch." – ACOK, Jon VI

Jon knows who he is in the sense that he knows what kind of man he is, what kind of man he hopes to be (one like Ned). A lot of people have fallen under D*ny's dragon goddess spell, both in the books and outside of them, but I don't think Jon is going to be one of them.

Thanks for the ask and apologies for taking so long to answer it!

#cappy's thoughts #anti danaerys targaryen #anti jonerys #anti targ restoration #jonsa #jon x sansa #jon snow #i'm not anti i'm just critical ok... in general i take a don draper approach to d + targs + j/d which is “i don't think about you at all” #or at least not more than i have to lmao #just not my vibe

[aegor-bamfsteel]

What do you think about Mirri? Do you think her betrayal to Dany was justified? Was she responsible for Rhaego death or it was Dany Targ genes responsible for his monstority?

I think she’s one of GRRM’s best written minor characters, and the situation around her is so fraught with arguments on either side it’s been a subject of debate for at least over a decade. I recommend looking at my Mirri Maz Duur tag; not because I’ve said anything exceptionally novel (nor will I) about her, but because the meta I’ve reblogged on her is some of the best written I’ve seen in fandom. There’s something about her conflict with Dæny that makes people go back to read very carefully, to assess what exactly went down and who is responsible. As for my own opinion, I’ve always been partial to those who rebel against Targaryens (especially if they’re doing it for a good cause, like saving others), so you probably can understand where my answers are going.

Do you think her betrayal of Dæny was justified? I’m unsure how to answer this question, because a betrayal is “breaking or violation of a presumptive contract, trust, or confidence that produces moral and psychological conflict within a relationship amongst individuals.” A contract implies agreement on both sides for the benefit of both. Dæny first meets Mirri when she is being raped when Drogo’s Khalasar sacks the Lhazareen village, burned homes and temples, raped women, and tortured boys for sport. Between them and Ogo’s khalasar, there may’ve been 10000 captives. The end goal of this sacking was to fund Rhaego’s ascension to the Iron Throne, as the gold from selling them would buy them ships and sailors. So if Dæny had not been khaleesi and carrying Drogo’s child, it’s possible Mirri wouldn’t have been raped, enslaved, forced to march miles with little food, and beaten. It is repeatedly emphasized that Mirri is her slave by Drogo (“You do not ask a slave, you tell her” “these ones belong to my khaleesi), by Dæny (“she would be walking…in the long column of slaves”), by Mirri herself (“You do not ask a slave. You tell her.) As Mirri is Dæny’s slave, she didn’t enter into a relationship with her willingly, nor did she have a choice on whether to trust her. As for the mutual benefit, while the supposed benefit of Mirri’s healing for Dæny is a healthy Drogo and safety delivered Rhaego, thus ensuring the future of a Dothraki invasion of Westeros, the success of her healing for Mirri is…her freedom, which, as already stated, would likely not have been violated had Dæny not been around in the first place (nor, to my understanding, is it Dæny’s ability to give, as personal liberty is an inalienable right). Hardly an equal exchange, as if Mirri had the capability of making such a trade in the first place. By the definition of betrayal—which supposes two people with agency working together for mutual benefit—Mirri did not betray Dæny, since due to her slave status she didn’t have the agency to refuse the relationship, nor was the exchange fair. Dæny decided to trust Mirri because she “saved” her from being raped (though she was still beaten, forced to march, and repeatedly threatened with death, which certainly made her decision to throw her life away easier), and just assumed Mirri would be grateful for her life. That’s hardly Mirri’s fault.

Perhaps a better question would be: Do slaves have the right to rebel against their masters? Some Dæny fans claim that while Mirri was justified killing Drogo, Rhaego was innocent and Dæny had saved her twice, so she was wrong to harm them. So a slave rebelling against a cruel master is justified, but not against a kinder one, and certainly not their child. However, it seems Dæny disagrees:

A boy came, younger than Dæny, slight and scarred, dressed up in a frayed grey tokar trailing silver fringe. His voice broke when he told of how two of his father's household slaves had risen up the night the gate broke. One had slain his father, the other his elder brother. Both had raped his mother before killing her as well. The boy had escaped with no more than the scar upon his face, but one of the murderers was still living in his father's house, and the other had joined the queen's soldiers as one of the Mother's Men. He wanted them both hanged.

I am queen over a city built on dust and death. Dæny had no choice but to deny him. She had declared a blanket pardon for all crimes committed during the sack. Nor would she punish slaves for rising up against their masters. —Dæny I ADWD

All right, so during the sack two slaves rose up against their master, killed him and his wife and oldest son, tried to kill his ~15 year old oldest son scarring him for life, and this teenager wants them hanged. It’s often remarked with the “house was lost when she abandoned it” case that Dæny had resolved her own claim to the Iron Throne as void, but in this case, she says that slaves killing their master’s family but leaving one young member alive to pursue punishment are not to be harmed. By her own logic, Mirri was justified in harming Drogo’s family (from the man to the wife to the children), no matter how Dæny may’ve treated her because she was a slave and thus could use any means necessary to free herself.

Was she responsible for Rhaego’s death? Let’s ask Dæny: “Ser Jorah had killed her son, Dany knew. He had done what he did for love and loyalty, yet he had carried her into a place no living man should go and fed her baby to the darkness. He knew it too…” —AGOT Dæny IX. This wouldn’t be the first time Mirri gave medical advice, she was ignored, things got worse, and she was blamed for what went wrong by the people who didn’t listen to her. She told Drogo to keep the firepod/sting-me-not poultice on for 10 days and say special prayers, he tore it off before then because it itched, his conditioned worsened so he couldn’t be saved through usual medical means, Mirri gets beaten for making the poultice. Mirri warned Dæny that no living person could enter that tent once she was doing her spells, but then Jorah carries Dæny in, and it seems babies are particularly vulnerable to shadow magic, so Rhaego dies, but then Mirri gets blamed for it. When Dæny accuses Mirri of killing her son, she doesn’t deny it, but nor does she confirm it, just saying she prevented future harm. She knew from the repeated beatings and death threats that she was a dead woman once she failed to bring back Drogo (though she’d still have a miserable life no matter what happened) and maybe mocking Dæny would give her a quick death done in anger rather than slow torture like that of the wineseller. Tbh I can’t trust what we know from prior Targaryen stillbirths (Maegor‘s wives and Visenya II having defects, including wings and a tail), as it’s possible some sorcery was involved, but I don’t think we need to. Mirri said don’t go in the tent because death is there, Jorah brings Dæny in when she goes into labor, and all three end up harmed by whatever was in there. The situation is ambiguous, but there’s enough evidence to claim that Mirri didn’t intentionally kill Rhaego, but went along with it because she had nothing to lose.

I can’t condemn Mirri for rebelling against her captors, staying defiant to the end. One of them just happened to be the protagonist of the story, so she gets considered more of a villain than I think she deserves.

#ask #asoiaf #asoiaf meta #mirri maz duur #dark!daenerys #dark!dany #anti daenerys

[rise-my-angel]

I appreciate your takes a lot and think you are quite respectful. I am a Dany fan and would enjoy Jon and Dany together in the books if it was healthy and they were interested in each other and blah blah basically it would have to be a very specific scenario for me to enjoy it but anyway I don’t consider myself a stan of any character or ship and I’m a bit perplexed by that type of fan. I enjoy reading posts by people who disagree with me and have different interpretations of characters. I get so disappointed when I find that I’m blocked by someone just because maybe they hate Dany or they ship a ship I don’t like even though we otherwise have similar opinions and even if we don’t, isn’t it nice to see what other people think sometimes? It’s refreshing I think. I’m a big Jon fan and I’m going to enjoy posts by other true Jon fans even if they don’t like Dany. I just have a hard time seeing why everyone is so bothered. Some fans are very rude and toxic when people disagree (I have been accused by other Dany fans of secretly being a Sansa and Jonsa stan just because I said I think Dany COULD be a villain in the books and I’d be okay with it as long as it’s well written which is silly. I’d be okay with so many different outcomes as long as they’re well written because it’s not my story and I trust George to tell a good one if he ever finishes it at all). I just wish we as fans could focus on celebrating the things we do agree on and ignore it when we disagree or have respectful and thought provoking conversations instead of just blocking or being hostile

I genuinely like dissecting what about characters or ships I dislike and why. I love analyzing fiction in ways that explore what works or doesn't work about something for a story in my personal opinion and how framing certain characters can have adverse effects on fan point of views.

People talk about "hating on things" when really, I love discussing why I think Rhaegar is a peice of shit. I love explaining what about Dany I think is a tyrant. But that is very difficult with a very specific subset of this fandom.

Mostly Dany stans and Sansa stans, but this also bleeds into the general discussion of targ stans. The fact of the matter is, they are fine with trashing the other character, but as soon as I make a post that is anti that character they stan, I am hating unjustifiably. I am hating just to hate and I am looking for things to hate.

And unfortunately, that means I am always on the defensive about my Jon opinions. This fandom has an issue with discussing Jon without attaching a ship to that narrative, especially Jonsa and Jonerys stans. I do not ship him with anyone, therefore I want to discuss him as a singular character and that includes exploring what I think are problematic and toxic characters towards him. Which in my analysis, includes Dany and Sansa. But because to a lot of these people, Jon is seen as an extension of Dany or Sansa in a ship, I am clearly one or the other.

I cannot tell you how silly it is to have "Anti Jonsa, Anti Jonerys, Anti Jonrya, Anti Jongritte" in my bio, and every single one of my anti jonerys posts gets passed around as pro jonsa evidence or my anti jonsa posts gets passed around as pro jonerys evidence.

It is a subset of this fandom I hate because it has shown how impossible it is to discuss Jon as a complete individual character outside of romantic ships and it is exhausting.

It is a very persistent problem. I don't care who personally ships these things, but the fandom has made it's mark by declaring that either your with them or your their enemy and any disagreeing opinions are seen as attacks instead of discussion of media I enjoy.

People can like Dany and Jonerys, or Sansa and Jonsa, but it is the persistent screaming that opinions like mine are being unfairly hateful or delusional that piss me off. I'd rather not have such negative opinions about certain shippers, but it is the angry mob mentality they have that make me so against it.

I want to just discuss Jon as a character on his own, they only want to discuss Jon as a side companion romantic interest to their favourite female character. And I get blocked for speaking against their sacred cow, whereas I go looking through their blogs just to see what their side says so I can make a fair argument to their points when engaging in critical discussion on my own personal posts.

Me and them are not the same.

#brace yourselves its my favourite mini game #how many anti tags do i gotta fucking add to this post just to not upset them #game of thrones #a song of ice and fire #asoiaf #jon snow #anti daenerys targaryen #anti jonerys #anti dany stans #anti sansa stark #anti sansa stans #anti jonsa #anti jonrya #anti jongritte #anti targ stans #IS THAT IT DID I MISS ANY

[gendrie]

What do you think a meeting between Arya and Tyrion would be like? There are a number of characters that I'd love to see Arya interact with at some point in future books (assuming we ever get TWOW) and one of my most anticipated meetings is between Arya and Tyrion. Despite her utter disdain for Lannisters such as Cersei and Joff, I imagine that Arya would easily be able to make the distinction between Tyrion and the rest of his family. I'm curious what Tyrion would make of Arya.

its one of my most anticipated meetings too. arya is the only starkling who hasn't interacted with tyrion (yet) and i do believe grrm is saving the best for last. they are his two favorite characters and they have bold personalities so you know its going to be good.

currently, i have this feeling that tyrion is going to end up in braavos. braavos is going to be a major location in twow (as per jonathan roberts who designed its map) and that suggests arya won't be the only major pov there. the best i have right now is that tyrion goes to treat with the sealord on dany's behalf? according to the paperwork the sealord was a witness to the targ/martell marriage pact. i am- also a firm believer that he gifted penny's family with dany's dragons eggs. tyrion mentions wanting to see the titan and the sailor's wife's identity will be explored further imo. theres enough reasons for tyrion (and/or dany to end up there) it goes without saying that arya will visit the sealord's palace too. i have ranted at length about her saving the sealord from being poisoned.

so! im very much into arya and tyrion being *formally* introduced at the sealord's palace. i think it'll be a clash of two very cunning individuals. tyrion will be intrigued by and skeptical of arya. she's a puzzle he's got to figure out tbh. i have long suspect he will reveal sansa's "betrayal" of the starks in an attempt to provoke her lol, but i think he will like her a lot. arya isnt going to flinch away from him which will be very appealing for tyrion. i agree that arya won't automatically write tyrion off either. he's not aligned with his family which could make them allies.... she seemed to relate to his character in the bloody hand and that was an exaggerated performance. it would be funny to see the fact that theyre in laws explored too. overall i think the vibe will be teasing - teetering between genuinely playful and threatening.

#ask #i think they'll almost def meet in twow #in some context #maybe more like sam and arya's meeting but #i really want them to know the others identity

[horizon-verizon]

Arianne’s definition of “rightful” is based on Dornish law, which is absolutely meaningless outside of Dorne. Dorne never supported Rhaenyra during the war. Look if Rhaenyra had won she’d have been the “rightful” Queen but she got eaten so... princess. Arianne don’t care about Rhaenyra, she only uses her as an example to crown Myrcella. Arianne never declared her allegiance for anyone. She just went “Viserys said” but whether or not she thinks that is valid is never mentioned.

Anon's responding to this post.

Aww, are you mad that I criticized the several hypocrisies of an individual who is using the system you'd ride and die for?

You couldn't find a single counterargument to anything I said about Stannis, so you tried to defame and discredit Arianne's status as a descendant of Rhaenyra who doesn't think of her as a traitor? You couldn't say anything about how I prove and show that literally MOST of Rhaenyra's descendants who actually can be called credible enough to give an opinion on whether or not she was responsible for the loss of dragons DO NOT credit her for the loss of dragons? You mad that you have nothing else to say, nothing that can prove you are actually using the couple of active braincells that your mother gave you and "give me a lesson" on Westerosi politics?

That's really too bad. Unfortunately, you decided to be stupid & reckless.

A)

You: "Arianne’s definition of “rightful” is based on Dornish law, which is absolutely meaningless outside of Dorne. Dorne never supported Rhaenyra during the war."

...It's like you can't read. Which would be fine if you owned up to it & were willing to learn, but you probably won't.

In the post you refer to, I give a list of women & some of them are lady regnants. Even though they faced death, torture, humiliation, etc. disproportionately to their male counterparts or only became lady regnants in their fathers' lack of trueborn male heirs....they still actually ruled their domains in their own right. For fuck sake, Rhaena the rider of Dreamfyre and her two daughters' claims were 2x told to be stronger than Jaehaerys I's, why would this even be a discussion if women didn't or couldn't rule at all!!!

("Prince into King"):

While Dorne (or most of it) has always used absolute primogeniture, nonDornish Westeros is not an agnatic primogeniture set of lands and never has been. Agnatic primogeniture, in case you didn't know, blocks women entirely from lines of succession. Westeros has a "male preference" primogeniture. These aren't "laws", too, in the way or types of enforcement that you are probably thinking either. they are more like strong "customs" that the lords themselves always twist or break away from whenever they feel like or need to. Here are some words GRRM uses to describe the patterns of succession in nonDornish Westeros:

Heavy on the emphasis on flexibility and "you could even make the case that the lords preferred the laws to be vague and contradictory, since that gave them more power".

One of the only things that really is consistent and desired is that the ruling lord's word is final and is the primary source of authority. So your denial of Rhaenyra being the actual heir and it being her birthright by the very same core "law" that everyone has gone by for literal centuries even before the Targs arrived (King's way is the final way), is...stupid and backwards. You were supposed to learn why characters develop their values from the world around them and critique them AND the system itself, not adopt those values.

That and the social purpose of vows and vow-taking used in this feudalist society to make sure a lords' vassals are subject to punishment or social ostracism if they go back on those vows.....

I mean, why do you think so many more people supported Rhaenrya over Aegon in the actual war anon?!

B)

You: "Arianne don’t care about Rhaenyra, she only uses her as an example to crown Myrcella. Arianne never declared her allegiance for anyone. She just went “Viserys said” but whether or not she thinks that is valid is never mentioned."

Quickly, does Stannis "care" about Aegon II? What is the definition of "care" you are using here? The type of "care" as in they have emotional investment in these people and use them as personal inspiration? Then the question is, again, does Stannis actually "care" about Aegon the Elder when he's using him to validate himself? Or doe she only care for Aegon as much as he cares about any religion in their world he lives in but still uses their male-first ideology for his own rise to power? Do you think that whenever we people looking back at the past at dead people even in our own lineage, we think of them as best friends? So, you're using a double standard simply bc you think, for whatever reason, that Rhaenyra's claim wasn't the right full one (by your quotation marks).

Why would a story about a woman who had experienced usurpation on account of her gender, had to marry and birth children to keep the power and position she didn't even ask for in their first place, who goes through femicide...not matter to the political development of Westeros?! Why do I, or Arianne,need to emotionally connect to her or like her in order for her to be human or to tell truths about her?!! We use people of history to validate our own experiences all the time bc there is always something the past that can guide us or teach us something the present, esp when the conditions we experiences or very very close to the exact same as those we observe of having similar experiences. I know this maybe foreign to you poor underexposed amoeba you call your "neurons", but that's a huge way we educate ourselves on humanity's social, economic, and political patterns. It was called "History", or "Social Studies" in class.

Reminds me of people trying to use the "Rhaenyra is not a feminist" for people who claim she had a rightful claim to the throne and bring up how better (even just a little bit) he reign would have been to set up that existing precedent of female rulership. Because apparently every single woman of history needs to be a feminist to matter or for her achievements to matter or be considered of feminist interest. What about medieval "proto"-feminist women like Marie de France, Jadwiga of Poland, Christine de Pizan, Eleanor of Aquitane, who all still thought, supported, or sought to redefine patriarchal ideology in their political actions and literature that would provide ideological pushback against several aspects of patriarchal ideology? Do they not matter in how one should discuss and combat institutional sexism and gender violence...the very purpose of feminism? Even though feminism--the actual movements and political activism/purpose--didn't exist until the 18th century in women like Sojourner Truth, Olympe de Gouges, Susan B. Anthony, etc. Why is it so difficult to see that in the context of a highly violent patriarchal system, that anything that dilutes or pushes back things that give women both political autonomy is within feminist interest?

Not to say that everything will be solved if Rhaenyra were to be queen and rule, but women in the U.S.A got their voting rights back in the 20s, yet we are still having our reproductive rights stripped from us. Does this mean that their right to vote or finally be able to independently open bank accounts totally meaningless? Quickly, answer me. The abolishment of the right of first night provides a stronger ideological base to "nationally" (bc Westeros is not a nation) condemn rape.

The point is that the point of access is no longer as narrow for women to be considered as "safe" candidates for rulership and for more people to see their having that power as fine to good.

C)

You: "Dorne never supported Rhaenyra during the war."

Okay...did they support the greens for this to be relevant? Dorne, as you almost referred to, almost never involved themselves with the Andal-FM freaks upstairs before Daeron I and Myriah Martell's/Danerys and Doran Martell's marriages and that had nothing to do with who "deserved" the Iron throne of the two nor with Westerosi laws.

D)

You: "Look if Rhaenyra had won she’d have been the “rightful” Queen but she got eaten so... princess."

No, my stupid, stupid friend, Rhaenyra is not culturally given the titles of "Queen" bc, as I already mentioned in that past post, the men in the councils around Aegon III implicitly and quietly decided for the entire society not to "officially" put her down as a queen, reflected in how Munkun uses gender as reason enough to disqualify Baela as the next Queen DESPITE her being much older than Aegon III and not as (apparent anyway) psychologically damaged by the war ("The Hooded Hand"):

DESPITE the fact that Gyldayn--several times--calls her "Queen" AND she also crowned herself and before you go "Aegon had all the ceremonies", please. Also, Aegon III OFFICIALLY derives his claim from Rhaenyra, not his father Daemon or his uncle Aegon II:

For Rhaenyra to not be a crowned royal....there's a lot of emphasis on her existence being used to justify Aegon III's rule. Perhaps you should have learned how weird.

You don't think it was weird how Aegon the Elder--who never actually got to rule NOR got his line continued bc he was poisoned by his own men--is called a king and thus actually didn't win much of anything, but Rhaenyra--who's line continues to birth the literal savior of the world (Dany again).

#asoiaf asks to me #stannis baratheon #asoiaf writing #fandom misogyny #fandom critical #asoiaf fandom #westerosi society #westerosi sexism #rhaenyra and feminism #westerosi history #westerosi queens #westerosi women #asoiaf themes

[esther-dot]

In s7 Dany told Jon that she was sold and raped. It means she acknowledge that Drogo raped her. Then why is her dragon named after her husband? Not only that she was basically shouting that Drogo has promised her 7 kingdoms which she get in s8. She even told Jon that Viserys was not good person. Yet she named her dragon after him. She even compared her grief of loosing her brothers to Jon's. It was confusing as hell.

It was confusing as hell! This is a really difficult topic since none of us agree on exactly where Martin stands on certain things, none of us know what D&D were attempting to do, and the combination and contradictions of all their ideas was ultimately, difficult to comprehend. 😂

One of the showrunners didn't buy that Dany would be "seduced" on her wedding night, so he chose to make it explicitly a rape scene, and Martin has complained about that decision multiple times, so their perspectives on Dany's relationships differ. I wouldn't be surprised if left entirely to their own devices, D&D would have never entertained the idea of Dany falling in love with Drogo, of her naming her dragon after him. But Martin did write that, so we ended up with some of Martin's ideas, some of D&D's, and it's just a little confusing to pick through it.

A lot of people really like the idea of taking extremes (love/hate), and making them cohabit a single relationship, as a way of….kinda examining the breadth of a human's feelings, how complex relationships can be, and I think Martin is very interested in that. Not just relationships, but the individual having so much potential for contradictory feelings. Doing so allows him to look at nooks and crannies of what people are.

So, you get Dany who loves her brother but also watched him die, was ambivalent about his death because it was to protect her/her child, but then goes and names one of her “children” after him. It makes no sense! Except, she believed they were the last Targaryens, distinct from other humans (basically), and if you look at other mortals as lesser, I suppose it might make you feel a little closer to someone of your own ilk, even if they’re awful.

Jon can’t quite cope with the different sides of Ygritte, her almost shy smiles and tears over a song, her ease with murdering an innocent man. She forces a sexual relationship on Jon, she also tries to protect him. This idea of caring for a person while being disgusted by some of their actions, of caring for a person even though they abuse you…it is something Martin is intrigued by. Viserys, although an abusive pos, kept Dany alive, Martin may have seen it as an examination of all that.

Actually, now that I think about it, Drogo gave her the silver which tasted like freedom, the first freedom Dany had known, so naming a dragon after that, the initial feeling and then the power she’s achieved since, perhaps that makes it a little more understandable? The scene of her riding the horse reads like she's flying and certainly feels related when you read how she experiences flying on Drogon. The dragon eggs are a wedding gift, it is Drogo's funeral pyre in which she births them. They are entwined in her relationship with him. Maybe that's the explanation there?

Or, Rhaegar was the Targ heir, Viserys obsessed over getting the crown, Drogo promised her armies to the cause, it's probably more about the connection to the throne than any of the other things. I mean, showwise, Jon was the rightful heir (Rhaegar's son who rode Rhaegal), Viserion (like Viserys) turned against Dany, it was Drogon that burned KL and (momentarily) "won" Dany the throne. In that way, those names make a kind of sense….I suppose it’s likely a blend of foreshadowing and characterization.

As for talking about losing her brothers, if you believe that s7 was D&D trying to sell a genuine romance, you need points of connection for characters, things that allow them to understand each other, that could have been their shitty way of doing that. If you think D&D were tryin to write a one-sided romance, you look at a comment like that and think D&D were showing how out of touch Dany was with Jon that she didn't even know how losing someone you never knew and someone else you watched get melted isn't exactly the same thing as losing your best friend, the brother you hero worshipped, or watching a baby brother die before you as you risk your life trying to save him.

Just depends on whether you're in the "D&D gave zero fucks" or in the "there was more to it that they dropped last minute" camp. :)

#dot chat #< for filtering

[ilynpilled]

Aerys & Cersei

I have seen some posts recently that want to paint Dany as the Aerys parallel in the story, as opposed to Cersei, and I want to pick that apart, and argue why it is detrimental to the respective stories of multiple characters, as well as pretty thematically incoherent.

Putting this quote by George in here as a given, as it will be relevant to the content in here:

"Fire is love, fire is passion, fire is sexual ardor and all of these things. Ice is betrayal, ice is revenge, ice is that kind of cold inhumanity and all that stuff is being played out in the books."

Thematically, Dany becoming an Aerys parallel is awful because of the bio essentialist undertones it has. I’ll put a link to the post that goes more in depth into this at the end of this. This is going to be rather long.

People use this argument for the Dany parallel for some reason: later, wildfire in many ways also functions as the Targs’ attempt to recreate dragons (Aerys is the most glaring example). To recreate lost magic, lost power. There are many historical stories of this destroying some of them. When you have a family be the head of a violent construct, like feudalistic hierarchies, it should not shock anyone how power can get corrupted. That is how I always viewed wildfire: the corrupted version of fire. It is an attempt to recreate power. Dany already has dragonfire, she literally brought them back into the world, she already has “power”, and she is learning to wield it (dragons, like power, can be wielded in different ways: plus they are living beings, I think this is key when comparing them with wildfire and its symbolic implications) Cersei’s story foils this in so many ways. Fire already has a rich duality in this series: life vs death, emancipation vs corruption, light vs destruction etc. Now let me get into the role fire & light plays in Cersei’s story:

She is associated with fire and passion in the text. She has a hunger for many things, power, love, respect and so on. She seems to mirror wildfire (directly as per Jaime’s description: “She had been a pretty girl, in truth; dimpled and delicate, with long auburn hair. Timid, though. Prone to tongue-tied silences and fits of giggles, with none of Cersei's fire.” , “Their father had been as relentless and implacable as a glacier, where Cersei was all wildfire, especially when thwarted. [….] her fury had been fearful to behold. She does not lack for wits, but she has no judgment, and no patience.”) She feels that that fire, that power, is absent in her life, leaving her in darkness and turning her ice cold.

By the time they left Maegor's Holdfast, the sky had turned a deep cobalt blue, though the stars still shone. All but one, Cersei thought. The bright star of the west has fallen, and the nights will be darker now. She paused upon the drawbridge that spanned the dry moat, gazing down at the spikes below. They would not dare lie to me about such a thing. "Who found him?"' "One of his guards," said Ser Osmund. "Lum. He felt a call of nature, and found his lordship in the privy." No, that cannot be. That is not the way a lion dies. The queen felt strangely calm. She remembered the first time she had lost a tooth, when she was just a little girl. It hadn't hurt, but the hole in her mouth felt so odd she could not stop touching it with her tongue. Now there is a hole in the world where Father stood, and holes want filling.

Tywin is both a symbol and a person that governs so much of Cersei and her relationship with the world. He owned her, a misogynistic traditionalist that sold her and moved her like a chess piece, with no regard to how it would affect her. He did not allow her individualization solely because of her gender. She even thinks he is in hell in her first AFfC chapter, likely for a multitude of reasons. Yet, Cersei aims to emulate his example. She seeks to fill the hole that he left. She wants to prove to him that she is worthy, even in his death. More so than his sons. His absence means darkness to her, because he and his conditioning is all that she knows. She thinks this is the key to recreating that absent fire. This also juxtaposes Jaime’s thoughts when he looks up the same stars. He associates Tywin with death and a feast for crows. He acknowledges that the sun has set, but he does not connect that light to Tywin, and he also thinks about the faint light of distant stars instead. They also come to drastically different conclusions about the worth of a crown. Cersei is repeatedly associated with death, and I do not think it is just about her own doom, but the feast for crows that she will bring about.

The queen could feel the heat of those green flames. The pyromancers said that only three things burned hotter than their sub-stance: dragonflame, the fires beneath the earth, and the summer sun. Some of the ladies gasped when the first flames appeared in the windows, licking up the outer walls like long green tongues. Others cheered, and made toasts. It is beautiful, she thought, as beautiful as Joffrey, when they laid him in my arms. No man had ever made her feel as good as she had felt when he took her nipple in his mouth to nurse. Tommen stared wide-eyed at the fires, as fascinated as he was frightened, until Margaery whispered something in his ear that made him laugh. Some of the knights began to make wagers on how long it would be before the tower collapsed. Lord Hallyne stood humming to himself and rocking on his heels. Cersei thought of all the King's Hands that she had known through the years: Owen Merryweather, Jon Connington, Qarlton Chelsted, Jon Arryn, Eddard Stark, her brother Tyrion. And her father, Lord Tywin Lannister, her father most of all. All of them are burning now, she told herself, savoring the thought. They are dead and burning, every one, with all their plots and schemes and betrayals. It is my day now. It is my castle and my kingdom.

Mind you this seed was already planted in ASoS:

Jaime curled up beneath his cloak, hoping to dream of Cersei. But when he closed his eyes, it was Aerys Targaryen he saw, pacing alone in his throne room.

Then, this is as clear cut of an Aerys parallel as it can get. People use Jaime’s description of Aerys and his relationship with fire, and try to project that onto Dany:

“Aerys would have bathed in it if he'd dared. The Targaryens were all mad for fire.”

The traitors want my city, I heard him tell Rossart, but I'll give them naught but ashes. Let Robert be king over charred bones and cooked meat. The Targaryens never bury their dead, they burn them. Aerys meant to have the greatest funeral pyre of them all. Though if truth be told, I do not believe he truly expected to die. Like Aerion Brightfire before him, Aerys thought the fire would transform him…. that he would rise again, reborn as a dragon, and turn all his enemies to ash. (Beyond obvious how well this fits with Cersei’s current and pending situation like lets be serious) :

I am Cersei of House Lannister, a lion of the Rock, the rightful queen of these Seven Kingdoms, trueborn daughter of Tywin Lannister. And hair grows back.

My crown, the queen thought. They took the other crown away from me, and now they are stealing this one as well.

I should not have done this. I was their queen, but now they've seen, they've seen, they've seen. I should never have let them see. Gowned and crowned, she was a queen. Naked, bloody, limping, she was only a woman, not so very different from their wives, more like their mothers than their pretty little maiden daughters. What have I done?

“He has sworn that he will not speak until all of His Grace's enemies are dead and evil has been driven from the realm.”

Yes, thought Cersei Lannister. Oh, yes.

People take the Targaryen aspect at face value, because they love to pick and choose at what times they want him to be an entirely reliable narrator. Again, Aerys never had dragons, he wanted to recreate them. It is not hard to actually navigate Jaime’s bias here as a result of his trauma, especially considering what Jaime himself thinks of Rhaegar (Rhaegar is not a Targ mad with fire in his mind but the ”good king that never was” lol) and the brutal death of his children at the hands of his family. (Aerys trauma affecting judgement regarding bloodlines was present when he almost pulled a #targrestoration for the trolling after they found him and asked him to name a king and he almost named a Targ as king and his father as hand bc it would make Robert #mad and thats funny until he got Aerys PTSD. He fears the ghost of Aerys returning more than anything else. It is a priority over his family’s interests, even back then). Again, the text is not actually bio essentialist, Jaime just has a very intense and dark relationship with Aerys and immense trauma that affects his logic. Not to mention, again, all that Aerys and some other Targs craved, Dany already achieved naturally. I just find it very funny how some of you people pick and choose when you want this man to be a reliable narrator depending on your agenda. Trust it is actually not that hard to figure it out when he is bullshitting in his thoughts or his words. Just look for contradictory actions or words, or whether his trauma and dissociative tendencies are relevant. Also why would you agree with the logic of “inherently evil and mad bloodline” said by the guy who is currently also convinced that he and his twin are one soul in two bodies who are tied together by fate?

Then, Jaime himself makes an actually reliable connection between Aerys and Cersei. No bloodline bullshit here. Cersei is literally his twin.

"That would be an even greater folly than burning the Tower of the Hand. So long as Tommen sits the Iron Throne, the realm sees him as the true king. Hide him under the Rock and he becomes just another claimant to the throne, no different than Stannis.”

"I am aware of that," the queen said sharply. "I said that I wanted to move the court to Lannisport, not that I would. Were you always this slow, or did losing a hand make you stupid?"

Jaime ignored that. "If these flames spread beyond the tower, you may end up burning down the castle whether you mean to or not. Wildfire is treacherous.'

"Lord Hallyne has assured me that his pyromancers can control the fire. The Guild of Alchemists had been brewing fresh wildfire for a fortnight. "Let all of King's Landing see the flames. It will be a lesson to our enemies."

"Now you sound like Aerys."

Her nostrils flared. “Guard your tongue, ser"

"I love you too, sweet sister."

How could I ever have loved that wretched creature? she wondered after he had gone. He was your twin, your shadow, your other half, another voice whispered. Once, perhaps, she thought. No longer. He has become a stranger to me. (Interesting that Jaime repeatedly associates Cersei with death directly, be it subconscious or conscious, and Cersei makes an accidental connection but not a deliberate one)

Other than the obvious fascination with wildfire, Cersei also aims to hurt him here with Kettleblack, because she is uncomfortable with losing her tool, and also because she is losing a source of warmth/love:

Cersei beckoned to Jaime. "Lord Commander, escort His Grace and his little queen to their pillows, if you would.

"As you command. And you as well?"

"No need." Cersei felt too alive for sleep. The wildfire was cleansing her, burning away all her rage and fear, filling her with resolve. “The flames are so pretty. I want to watch them for a while.”

Jaime hesitated. “You should not stay alone.”

"I will not be alone. Ser Osmund can remain with me and keep me safe. Your Sworn Brother"

"If it please Your Grace,” said Kettleblack.

“It does.” Cersei slid her arm through his, and side by side they watched the fire rage.

We have access to Jaime’s thoughts:

Jaime knew the look in his sister's eyes. He had seen it before, most recently on the night of Tommen's wedding, when she burned the Tower of the Hand. The green light of the wildfire had bathed the face of the watchers, so they looked like nothing so much as rotting corpses, a pack of gleeful ghouls, but some of the corpses were prettier than others. Even in the baleful glow, Cersei had been beautiful to look upon. She'd stood with one hand on her breast, her lips parted, her green eyes shining. She is crying, Jaime had realized, but whether it was from grief or ecstasy he could not have said. The sight had filled him with disquiet, reminding him of Aerys Targaryen and the way a burning would arouse him.

Jaime is aware and is bitter about that, but he hones in on a completely different thing. The bitterness over the cheating takes a backseat to him noticing the ghost of Aerys being present in Cersei. Then, this parallel keeps going. Right after Jaime makes a direct parallel between Aerys and Cersei, as well as associating her with death and corpses again, his thoughts drift to Aerys and his skewed relationship with wildfire & sex. Fire is passion, yes, sexual ardor, but again, wildfire is a corrupted version of fire.

whenever Aerys gave a man to the flames, Queen Rhaella would have a visitor in the night. The day he burned his mace-and-dagger Hand, Jaime and Jon Darry had stood at guard outside her bedchamber whilst the king took his pleasure. "You're hurting me,” they had heard Rhaella cry through the oaken door. "You're hurting me." In some queer way, that had been worse than Lord Chelsted's screaming. "We are sworn to protect her as well," Jaime had finally been driven to say. "We are," Darry allowed, "but not from him." Jaime had only seen Rhaella once after that, the morning of the day she left for Dragonstone. The queen had been cloaked and hooded as she climbed inside the royal wheelhouse that would take her down Aegon's High Hill to the waiting ship, but he heard her maids whispering after she was gone. They said the queen looked as if some beast had savaged her, clawing at her thighs and chewing on her breasts. A crowned beast, Jaime knew.

"And this?" Cersei pinched the nipple now, pulling on it hard, twisting it between her fingers.The Myrish woman gave a gasp of pain.

"You're hurting me."

"It's just the wine. I had a flagon with my supper, and another with the widow Stokeworth. I had to drink to keep her calm." She twisted Taena's other nipple too, pulling until the other woman gasped. "I am the queen I mean to claim my rights.”

"Do what you will.” Taena's hair was as black as Robert's, even down between her legs, and when Cersei touched her there she found her hair all sopping wet, where Robert's had been coarse and dry.

"Please,” the Myrish woman said, "go on, my queen. Do as you will with me. I'm yours.” But it was no good. She could not feel it, whatever Robert felt on the nights he took her. There was no pleasure in it, not for her.

She gasped some words in a foreign tongue, then shuddered again and arched her back and screamed. She sounds as if she is being gored, the queen thought. For a moment she let herself imagine that her fingers were a bore's tusks, ripping the Myrish woman apart from groin to throat. It was still no good. It had never been any good with anyone but Jaime.

Cersei seeks to achieve catharsis. She is exploring her own trauma. She wants to derive catharsis from emulating power. From emulating violent men, emulating Robert. But she experiences no pleasure. She experiences no catharsis. This is not enough. This is not what she is looking for. All she has is the fire.

Its eyes were pools of molten magma, and when it opened its mouth, the flame came roaring out in a hot jet. She could hear it singing to her. She opened her arms to the fire, embraced it, let it swallow her whole, let it cleanse her and temper her and scour her clean. She could feel her flesh sear and blacken and slough away, could feel her blood boil and turn to steam, and yet there was no pain. She felt strong and new and fierce.

This is what Cersei, like Aerys, will want to achieve in a metaphorical and in some ways literal sense. But with wildfire. It won’t work obviously, but it is all that she has.

Now lets talk about Cersei and swords.

Jaime, above most else, functioned as her sword. He was an extension of her, a weapon she desperately needed in order to punish others, and simultaneously protect herself. It was power. She immediately takes note of it when physical and internal change in Jaime is present:

"He'll have Casterly Rock, isn't that enough? Let Father sit the throne. All I want is you." He made to touch her cheek. Old habits die hard, and it was his right arm he lifted. Cersei recoiled from his stump.

"Don't ... don't talk like this. You're scaring me, Jaime. Don't be stupid. One wrong word and you'll cost us everything. What did they do to you?"

"They cut off my hand."

"No, it's more, you're changed." She backed off a step.

+

Jaime hugged her, his good hand pressing against the small of her back. He smelled of ash, but the morning sun was in his hair, giving it a golden glow. She wanted to draw his face to hers for a kiss. Later, she told herself, later he will come to me, for comfort.

"We are his heirs, Jaime," she whispered. "It will be up to us to finish his work. You must take Father's place as Hand. You see that now, surely. Tommen will need you.”

He pushed away from her and raised his arm, forcing his stump into her face.

"A Hand without a hand? A bad jape, sister. Don't ask me to rule.”

+

"Your turn," she told him afterward. "Pull his mane, I dare you." He never did. I should have had the sword, not him. (Interesting symbolism as to which one of them is opposed to the lions and which one is not)

+

If Jaime had not lost his hand. That road led nowhere, though. Jaime's sword hand was gone, and so was he

Jaime may yet come. She pictured him riding through the morning mists, his golden armor bright in the light of the rising sun.

It should be Jaime beside me. He would draw his golden sword and slash a path right through the mob, carving the eyes out of the head of every man who dared to look at her.

Ofc, who she used the weapon against were usually victims, but that is a big part of Cersei as a character, and the whole commentary about victims & perpetrators. You can have an irredeemable and evil character that the patriarchy still suppresses and affects the psychology of immensely, rendering her a bigger monster. The commentary on the destructive capacity of static social constructs is not lost as a result. A character can turn into the devil of the story due to a world that ceaselessly strips her of her humanity, as well as as a result of the choices she actively makes. Cersei has shown to be capable of cruelty even before her trauma (how she treated Tyrion, her extreme narcissism, throwing her best friend down a well), but this does not change anything. Being a perpetrator does not negate her victimhood, and vice versa. It is also her stubbornness and power hunger that leave her to her ruin in a world that does not allow her the ‘freedom’ or ‘power’ that she desperately desires. It becomes the worst combination of nature and nurturer. Her sword is gone for good. The motif of “sunlight” is once again present. It turns his hair/armor gold. She craves the golden Jaime in golden armor, the Jaime from AGoT. But we know Jaime’s color symbolism is heading in a very different direction:

Even at a distance, Ser Jaime Lannister was unmistakable. The moonlight had silvered his armor and the gold of his hair, and turned his crimson cloak to black.

She did as he bid her. "The white cloak . . ." ". . . is new, but I'm sure I'll soil it soon enough." “That wasn't . . . I was about to say that it becomes you”

When he was done, more than three-quarters of his page still remained to be filled between the gold lion on the crimson shield on top and the blank white shield at the bottom.

“Gold? Or silver?" Cersei plucked a hair from beneath his chin and held it up. It was grey. "All the color is draining out of you, brother. You've become a ghost of what you were, a pale crippled thing. And so bloodless, always in white." She flicked the hair away. "I prefer you garbed in crimson and gold."

(Again, gold is heavy negative symbolism for Jaime, another indication that Goldenhand the Just is an obvious dead end, as I have discussed at length atp. It is an attempt to recreate his phantom and cover it up with a golden lie.)

Then, finally, the conclusion for Cersei during her rebirth:

A shadow fell across them both, blotting out the sun. The queen felt cold steel slide beneath her, a pair of great armored arms lifting her off the ground lifting her up into the air as easily as she had lifted Joffrey when he was still a babe.

This is the reason the sun gets blotted out at the end. I think that is a final statement on how he will never be her sword again. So now she needs a new sword. She has Robert Strong, and she has wildfire. Light & sun is repeatedly absent, and she lands in the cold darkness over and over again. She has associations with ice and wildfire. Unlike Jaime, who is often reborn in light & warmth (1. first POV: “sent them toward the pale pink dawn. After so long in darkness, the world was so sweet that Jaime Lannister felt dizzy. I am alive, and drunk on sunlight.” In contrast with Cersei’s first POV: her awakening in her dark chamber after a dream turned nightmare. 2. when the arakh kills his old self: “sunlight ran silver along the edge of the arakh”, 3. the steaming bath. Robert Strong also contrasts Brienne. Interesting that he lifts Cersei up into the air, while Brienne catches Jaime before he could fall. Robert Strong is “cold steel”, while Brienne’s touch is “warm” (noted twice by Jaime). “The cell began to darken. It was growing cold as well. Cersei began to shiver. How can they leave me like this, without so much as a fire? I am their queen.” Cersei on the other hand keeps being put or reborn in darkness, I assume this symbolically has meaning and is no coincidence. Plus, while Jaime chooses to cut his own hair, Cersei is forcefully stripped from it. What is also interesting is what the both of them have in the dark (Jaime’s weirwood dream) are the flames (for Jaime the flaming sword, for Cersei the torch, and later the wildfire).

Again, people want Jaime to be an unreliable narrator here, clouded by bitterness and hatred or something, but I really doubt that is the case. Again, the cheating takes a backseat, and that whole thing is more complicated anyways: it is primarily a catalyst that reveals to him how broken the illusion he created for himself about the relationship is at its very foundation. The whole idea of her love, which is so significant for him, is questioned. There are so many factors that play into their relationship falling apart (they both change, the hand loss, Jaime’s rejection of being Tywin’s heir, his desire to give up power and choose Cersei, while Cersei would never give up power for Jaime, him not understanding the nuances of that as Cersei is inherently more powerless bc of her status and she craves it desperately + differences in nature and experiences. + Cersei asking him to kill Tyrion. Again, they are fundamentally different. This is also a partial reason as to why Jaime rejected her advances post sept scene imo, even if he keeps making inconsistent excuses (location, the dead KG or his father, vows, judgement of the gods [he never really cared about this before: he is a reddit atheist, also did not stop him at the sept]). Some of this is before the cheating reveal.) Jaime does not harm her even if she repeatedly hits him, emasculates him, insults him (he mentioned that he already turned her blows to kisses before) etc. but there is violent anger within him about the cheating. I think this is because that is the one thing that truly creates a major hole in his self-conjured narrative about the relationship (we are one soul in two bodies, destined lovers), as well as something that recontextualizes all the awful things he had actively done to sustain it. Other than all that, let me talk about Jaime and eyes:

Jaime watched her eyes. Pretty eyes, he thought, and calm. He knew how to read a man's eyes.

Bolton's silence was a hundred times more threatening than Vargo Hoat's slobbering malevolence. Pale as morning mist, his eyes concealed more than they told. Jaime misliked those eyes. : Roose Bolton's eyes were paler than stone, darker than milk

He remembered Eddard Stark, riding the length of Aerys's throne room wrapped in silence. Only his eyes had spoken; a lord's eyes, cold and grey and full of judgment.

The clasp that pinned it to her breast was wrought in the shape of a wolf's head with slitted opal eyes. The girl's long brown hair blew wild in the wind. She had a pretty face, he thought, but her eyes were sad and wary. (makes his inaction [link] all the more terrible, his conscience is screaming at him)

"Blue is a good color on you, my lady," Jaime observed. "It goes well with your eyes." She does have astonishing eyes.

The queen's eyes were green ice. "You had best go, ser."

He remembered how Rossart's eyes would shine (another Cersei parallel) when he unrolled his maps to show where the substance must be placed.

With his grim face and deep-sunk hollow eyes, Ser Ilyn might have passed for death himself . . . as he had, for years.

Though his pox-scarred face was grim and his eyes as cold as ice on a winter lake, Jaime sensed that he was glad he'd come.

Sorry, but I am gonna trust what Jaime sees in her eyes at Tommen’s Wedding. His judgement tends to be very accurate. Eyes are the windows to the soul after all.

Every idea that I have discussed at length here is also present in Jaime’s dreams.

Down a twisting passageway he went, narrow steps carved from the living rock, down and down. I must go up, he told himself. Up, not down. Why am I going down? Below the earth his doom awaited, he knew with the certainty of dream; something dark and terrible lurked there, something that wanted him.

The steps ended abruptly on echoing darkness. Jaime had the sense of vast space before him. He jerked to a halt, teetering on the edge of nothingness. A spearpoint jabbed at the small of the back, shoving him into the abyss. He shouted, but the fall was short. He landed on his hands and knees, upon soft sand and shallow water. There were watery caverns deep below Casterly Rock, but this one was strange to him. "What place is this?"

"Your place." The voice echoed; it was a hundred voices, a thousand, the voices of all the Lannisters since Lann the Clever, who'd lived at the dawn of days. But most of all it was his father's voice, and beside Lord Tywin stood his sister, pale and beautiful, a torch burning in her hand. Joffrey was there as well, the son they'd made together, and behind them a dozen more dark shapes with golden hair.

"Sister, why has Father brought us here?"

"Us? This is your place, Brother. This is your darkness." Her torch was the only light in the cavern. Her torch was the only light in the world. She turned to go.

"Stay with me," Jaime pleaded. "Don't leave me here alone." But they were leaving. "Don't leave me in the dark!" Something terrible lived down here. "Give me a sword, at least."

“I gave you a sword," Lord Tywin said.

It was at his feet. Jaime groped under the water until his hand closed upon the hilt. Nothing can hurt me so long as I have a sword. As he raised the sword a finger of pale flame flickered at the point and crept up along the edge, stopping a hand's breath from the hilt.

—- Brienne shows up naked. Jaime cuts her chains. Gifts her a sword. etc.

Brienne's sword took flame as well, burning silvery blue. The darkness retreated a little more.

"The flames will burn so long as you live," he heard Cersei call. "When they die, so must you."

"Sister!" he shouted. "Stay with me. Stay!" There was no reply but the soft sound of retreating footsteps.

— Jaime and Brienne are left to face ghosts, lot of LN imagery and all that. Jaime’s sword’s fire goes out, Brienne’s still burns, he jerks awake before the ghosts rush him with his heart beating. Another moonlight motif happens after he wakes up on a “white stump” and he goes back for Brienne and saves her from the bear etc whatever no longer relevant to Cersei’s story imo

The Lannister legacy is associated with doom in Jaime’s subconscious. Cersei leaves with fire to join the Lannisters, specifically her son and father, and the imagery of death is so prevalent again.

This then mirrors Jaime’s other main dream, where his subconscious mind is communicating with him, right before he burns her letter. Again, overwhelming fire imagery. And it is fire that is destroying her. Like the letter, she is left to burn. First he mistakes his mother for Cersei, and then her leaving him parallels Cersei leaving in the fever dream. His mom, or his subconscious, also presents him with a key reality check:

One. One hand, clasped tight around the sword hilt. Only one. "In my dreams I always have two hands." He raised his right arm and stared uncomprehending at the ugliness of his stump.

"We all dream of things we cannot have. Tywin dreamed that his son would be a great knight, that his daughter would be a queen. He dreamed they would be so strong and brave and beautiful that no one would ever laugh at them."

This is in direct conversation with his last dream (I assume it is deconstructing it. Idk, Jaime, it is almost like Goldenhand the Just is not a real possibility): “Last night he dreamed he'd found her fucking Moon Boy. He'd killed the fool and smashed his sister's teeth to splinters with his golden hand, just as Gregor Clegane had done to poor Pia (we know what he thinks of Gregor, we know this is not good in his mind or ours, it is almost like his subconscious is telling him something). In his dreams Jaime always had two hands; one was made of gold, but it worked just like the other.”

"I am a knight," he told her, "and Cersei is a queen."

A tear rolled down her cheek. The woman raised her hood again and turned her back on him. Jaime called after her, but already she was moving away, her skirt whispering lullabies as it brushed across the floor. Don't leave me, he wanted to call, but of course she'd left them long ago.

Both of their endeavors seem to be dead ends. Cersei is not gonna be the Queen that she always craved to be, despite having the title. Jaime is not and is not going to be the glorious knight, Goldenhand the Just, as he should conclude based on the Riverrun fiasco (this is also why I think Jaime’s very emphasized white/silver/grey replacing gold & crimson color symbolism is not about the KG, it is either something more abstract or it is about the Starks: “White is for the Starks. I’ll drink red like a good Lannister”, ntm how tied Arya is to JB through locations/brotherhood/stoneheart despite their desperate search for Sansa (pointless, she is at the Vale), and horses & wolves, the weirwood, the oath in general, and the fact that WW is half of Ice.) That is his attempt to recreate a fictive ideal that the boy he used to be dreamed of. That is not what true knighthood is about though. It was never about golden glory. These are golden lies. He knows too deep down. He has one hand. He has to look at the ugliness of the stump. It feels like Jaime realizes this, on a subconscious level certainly, and will pivot (especially after confronting what is essentially the embodiment of the worst product of the Lannister regime: a monster created by its sins, the cycle of violence itself, as well Jaime’s specific part in it: Stoneheart) at least I hope so, because that is how his arc would be functional, but Cersei remains steadfast. Also, Cersei remaining passive would feel like her character and the set up did not go anywhere. Whatever she will do with wildfire will be a grand act of agency, and her combatting the state she is in, it is gonna be a very corrupted and poetic act of destruction. She is essentially gonna set herself and the world on fire in order to battle the cold (her enemies, the people that hurt her, witnesses, and the innocents that are a victim to this whole cycle). That is what I would like to see. Jaime’s last AFfC chapter is also supposed to be a point of no return in some form. The idea of “opening the shutters”, winter, is so emphasized. The main reason certain retreading happens in ADwD that some people are obsessed with overanalyzing or misrepresenting (especially bc they need it desperately to justify “Jaime is drawn back to CR of all places to Cersei for no good reason other than he is a codependent addict” so they can get the wildfire + Cersei + KL out of the equation so Dany or whatever can be the Aerys parallel/mad evil kaboom boom person while there still being some lackluster follow through for all of Cersei’s set ups like valonqar etc) is because George’s editor told him to do some retreading with him since he took so long between books that the readers needed a reminder about where these characters were left:

so this entire passage had to be added in to cover these bases. When I read the Feast/Dance combined book it made me laugh how much this part was a “previously on Jaime Lannister.”

But again, he makes a clear choice, motivated by a concoction of things: he goes with Brienne, not back to his King, or back to Cersei. I think he is not ready to face Cersei yet and fears what he would do. I think so many dichotomies were being emphasized in this chapter: Tywin’s dogma, its results, the glory of pursuing the brotherhood, and how it all conflicts with Jaime’s arc in the subtext. I do not doubt he will land back there again, yes, George said they are effectively estranged, the romantic relationship is over, but that does not necessarily mean they will not meet again, nor that they will not hold any relevance in each other’s stories anymore. (Even if valonqar will not be literal, again, he has one hand, and he came to this conclusion in his dreams too in the end, and this fact very much comes in the way of the logistics of “the valonqar will wrap his hands”, if not only literally, certainly symbolically: even if it is the gold chain part two (was one not more than enough George???), I feel like Jaime would struggle with doing it with even that considering his hand situation.) Personally, I would prefer it if that part of the prophecy is subverted and it ends up not being an ex (or any other man for that matter) overpowering and murdering her. George had enough misses when it concerns some misogynistic writing in her storyline, it is 2023 now, so her death not being in anyway “gratifying” for misogynists (see aspects of the framing of Lysa’s death) would be my preference. I would love her death to be on her own terms. I made a parallel about her and Hedda Gabler before, and maybe something of that sort would be the best case scenario. She would rather take herself out in a blaze of glory than let the men (any valonqar, be it Tyrion, Jaime, Aegon etc) do it. That would be tragic as well as in some very dark way her reclaiming agency from fate itself. But honestly I doubt that is the direction George will go. Jaime will probably kill her, and it will be an incredibly grey act. Do not want that to be presented as straightforwardly heroic. I think it will be motivated by a lot of emotion and not just duty. Do not know how this entire situation will go down exactly. Also, really specific detail I noticed regarding prophecy wording, might not be deliberate:

“And when your tears have drowned you, the valonqar shall wrap his hands about your pale white throat and choke the life from you.”

Sometimes he even wept, until he heard the Mummers laughing. Then he made his eyes go dry and his heart go dead, and prayed for his fever to burn away his tears. Now I know how Tyrion has felt, all those times they laughed at him.

Drogon killed a little girl. Her name was … her name …" Dany could not recall the child's name. That made her so sad that she would have cried if all her tears had not been burned away.

And then there was no stopping the tears. They burned down the queen's cheeks like acid.

To my knowledge, these three (+ Cat’s tears burning like vinegar) are the only characters with this specific phrasing present. Interesting anyway.

Also, I am wondering how much Cers will even trust Jaime atp. The sun is blotted out, that has to represent disillusionment, no? Ronnet Connington is also back at KL, we all know what Jaime did to that man when it concerned Brienne, and Cersei’s “he would never abandon me for such a creature. My letter must not have reached him” might entirely fall apart even more if he happens to tell her. Nonetheless, Widow’s Wail is still very much at the Red Keep, and that will have to land in Jaime’s hand(s). Also to further address the theory that the twins will be away from the wildfire and die together at CR since I mentioned it, I do not think the twins should go to The Rock. It is a place that Jaime repeatedly rejected, and Cersei is so closely tied to KL, the throne, and her kids are destined to die because of their crowns. Kevan wanted to return Cersei to The Rock, and what happened to him lol. “So long as Tommen sits the Iron Throne, the realm sees him as the true king. Hide him under the Rock and he becomes just another claimant to the throne, no different than Stannis.” “I am aware of that” the Queen said sharply.

I don’t know guys, doubt Cersei will want to hide under the Rock after what happened. Like you are telling me that Cersei, the one that reached into the lion’s cage, the human embodiment of wildfire, will passively accept all this? “That is not the way a lion dies.” So unless it is like a huge irony moment, which I would honestly like less, I do not think I see it or would like it happening. Also, Jaime is presented with the opportunity to die with Cers twice atp, once at the end of AFfC when the letter comes, and then at ADwD he is on his way back there. He ends up not taking it. In ASoS, when Brienne talks him out of passive suicide under the graceful crescent, he makes “Cersei needs me, I cannot die we need to die together”, “Tyrion who loves me for a lie needs me”, and “revenge against Hoat and co” his purpose to keep living. Notice how literally none of these things come to be. He does not even actively pursue the Hoat gang, revenge “lost its savor” once he sees the brutality that happened to Hoat, Tyrion no longer loves him for a lie and he believes he does not love him at all, and look at what is up with Cersei. “Her need is real enough”, + his bitterness about the cheating is still present in the chapter, and yet he does not end up pursuing any of that and chooses the oath to Cat (he abandons his position alone with Brienne, not exactly the safest thing). Like in his dream, he has his own flame right now, Cersei leaves with her torch and is no longer “the only light in the world” like it used to be as a result of their codependent relationship. The essentialist roots of that were completely deconstructed for both parties, Jaime especially (and it is touched upon again in ADwD w Hildy). So I don’t know why and how he would go to CR to Cersei atp tbh. Something will have to draw him to KL imo. Jaime’s dream is not about CR literally either, one it mirrors Brienne’s dreams and she pictures a different location (ntm they are together in Jaime’s whole dream thing anyway, what the fuck would Brienne be doing over there), two he repeatedly thinks and realizes how there is no such place beneath The Rock by the end. The original CR connection is more metaphorical than anything in my opinion. It is Tyrion that is tied to that place in a plethora of ways. It is his character that it is extremely relevant to. Whatever he will end up doing there will serve just as well with the idea of the destruction of Tywin’s legacy. I think the other two siblings will destroy Tywin’s legacy in different ways.

Finally, here is why it being Dany is thematically pretty dysfunctional imo: link

And even if, after all that, you guys still believe there to be another Aerys parallel in the narrative: This is already in the text. Is Cersei’s role just to foreshadow another woman’s path? You want this same narrative to happen again but with a teenage girl? I sure love that guys great message about women and power.

#disagree with some of this now but the symbolism analysis is good imo #asoiaf #cersei lannister #daenerys targaryen #jaime lannister #aerys targaryen #asoiaf meta #valyrianscrolls #long post

[thaliajoy-blog]

Maybe I can get this out of my system, there's Baela discourse on twitter and it's making me think...like the possibility, the future with her & Jace being the perfect rulers and bringing a new golden era to the realm is only interesting to me as what it is on paper, in the actual text : a doomed future that never came to pass. I prefer Baela's relationship with Jace to be something she treasures & regrets, something from her past, from when she was barely fifteen & idealized the same future I just pictured. That golden doomed issue that never came to be, compared to a bitterly imperfect present with Alyn (the one who will never be Jace, because Jace died at fifteen and never got to grow up & become a flawed human being), where Baela isn't queen, had lost her dragon & the realm is recovering from a terrible war.

And like maybe this will sound mean or something but the future people tend to imagine between her and Jace generally looks prety, eh, painfully heterosexual ? It's giving Alyssa and Baelon but like, emphasis on the "bold & courageous young Targaryen woman whose dream is actually birthing lots of sons for her husband because no matter how bold & courageous she is, she's been successfully indoctrinated into wanting what's right for the dynasty - lots of babies".

Like on one part there's definitely a golden future lost in her & Jace, like there was in Alyssa & Baelon, or in Aemon, and later in Baelor Breakspear...but also I'm a bit annoyed by how people seem to think that this couple would have had no problem whatever because this time (!) the Targ formula would have been perfect & unproblematic & feminist ! They would truly have saved us all Westeros 🙌

And like I can't really feel so optimistic for some reason. So many unknown variables in this brother-sister-betrothed-basically-since birth-rarelly-parted relationship. Some part of me just wants to wrench them apart, so they could grow as individual people. Only war & death could do that, in the end, and that's a shame. Though as a story, it's golden.

#baela targaryen #jacaerys velaryon #alyn velaryon #house targaryen #asoiaf meta #i hope i'm not weird though #my thoughts on anything related to fire & blood are in constant flux #i don't hate jacela #really ! #i just vaguely resent what it usually is in the fandom idk why #like there are prob no real big genetic problem to targ incest but like #we underestimate how fucked up those incestuous family dynamics can be