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burst-of-iridescent · 7 months

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As great and narratively significant as Zutara is. It really wouldn't work organically without a book 4: air. I can see it having 30 episodes.

It can feature Guru Patik as Aang's new sifu and he teaches Aang more abstract parts of airbending, such as flight, cloud gliding, astral projection, and of course, chakra mastery. We can then get flashbacks with Gyatso teaching tattooless Aang basic airbending. Aang can also learn to come to terms with the fact he has taken over a dozen lives, as did Gyatso and whoever else, and find out any other dark secrets the air nomads have hidden from Aang. They can feature Ty Lee's potential relations to the air nomads and hint/tease at the possibility that she can be an airbender herself.

Due to Azula being a descendant of Aang's past life Roku, (and/or due to Ozai being Vaatu in disguise) Aang and Azula become spiritually, connected, linked, and bonded with each other. This bond is created after Aang had let go of Katara and embraced his last chakra twice. This bond unites them as fate, allowing them to understand each other, derive character development from each other, and grow closest to each other despite being on opposite sides of the war. Aang would even be able to know when Azula lies and vice versa. This connection grows stronger over time. It reaches its apex after Azula has opened and mastered her own chakras.

Of course, there can be the revelation of where Ursa is but instead of what was shown in the comics, Ikem and Kiyi do not exist and while Ursa changes her face, it doesn't cost her her memories. She can hide out in the white lotus and meets up with Aunt Wu who's also a member along with Guru Patik.

The season doesn't have to be post-war though. The comet can arrive by the end of Fall instead of Summer. Season 3 ends with only the final agni kai but everything else is moved to the end of season 4. Or, Aang's year can be the 10,000th year and harmonic convergence arrives by the end of fall. The comet can arrive by the end of summer like originally, but Ozai fights the lion turtle instead of Aang, Ozai wins by slaying the beast. Aang loses his past lives, but Raava is able to make up for it by becoming the avatar spirit of darkness/chaos/yin and light/peace/yang simultaneously and will embody/control the sources of any/all bending.

Speaking of Ozai. For the former, Ursa and Iroh can be rewritten as bio-siblings while Ozai replaces Sozin in time/place of birth. Ozai will basically have all of Sozin and Azulon's characteristics/experiences/atrocities/lifespans while keeping all of his own. Or, for the latter, Ozai's secret/true identity is actually Vaatu. It's Vaatu who used the solstices and his time tree prison's cosmic energy to directly orchestrate the 100-year war through Sozin. He also manipulated Iroh's mother, Ilah, into escaping but at the cost of his dark power and status, which he can only get back via harmonic convergence. Ozaatu slays the lion turtle by absorbing its soul, he gains all elements, plus all non-bender skills, in the opposite order to Aang's cycle by absorbing the souls of all original benders, every member of the white lotus, all Kysohi warriors except for Suki and Ty Lee, and Hakoda.

Do you agree with any of this or do you have something completely different in mind for book 4: air?

i agree with you. when i say zutara should have been canon, it's only in a world where book 4 happened and we got the post-war slowburn we deserved. that's why my stance has always been that if we only had three seasons, the show should have ended with no canonical romances or with only a hint of future zutara. zuko and katara at the end of book 3 are in the perfect place to begin falling in love with each other, having formed a solid, beautiful friendship upon which the ideal romance could have been built.

personally, i'm not a fan of the raava/vaatu plotline that lok introduced (but my problems with it are too long to get into here, so i'll leave it to another time) so i wouldn't incorporate it into my ideal book 4. but i like the ideas about aang going back to guru pathik to learn more about airbending and his spirituality, and i'm always here for secret airbender ty lee.

i would prefer book 4 to be set post-war for two reasons: 1) i think most fantasy stories always end with defeating the Big Bad, so it would have been interesting for ATLA to actually explore a world after war, and how peace doesn't instantly solve all problems, and 2) character work is one of ATLA's biggest strength, and i would've enjoyed a season focusing solely on more introspective struggles (aang struggling to come to terms with the consequences of energybending, toph's conflict with her parents, zuko finding his mother, azula's redemption etc etc) than deal with the Great Evil that has to be vanquished.

but ofc everyone is free to visualize book 4 however they want, and i strongly encourage you to write your version of book 4 if you wish to! that's what fanfiction is for, after all, to play with a thousand different versions of what canon could have been.

#zutara asks #zutara

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justanotherthrowaway1950 · 5 months

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Why Azula, Ozai, Azulon, and Sozin Shouldn't Be Written as Having ASPD

Keynote: Antisocial Personality Disorder (ASPD) is the proper medical term as far as I know for what is commonly referred to as sociopathy and psychopathy. So I use ASPD throughout this meta in lieu of those terms.

It is a commonly held belief in ATLA fandom that some combination of Sozin, Azulon, Ozai, and/or Azula have ASPD since there is no good explanation for the way that they treat their “loved ones”, their subjects, and the world other than them being utterly incapable of feeling empathy for others.

And while I do admit that reading Sozin, Azulon, Ozai, and/or Azula as suffering from ASPD is a perfectly acceptable and well-supported by canon, I personally think they shouldn’t be written as suffering from ASPD because there are three, story-based reasons for not doing so.

Or more specifically, if Sozin, Azulon, Ozai and Azula aren’t written as suffering from ASPD, (1) it strengthens their ability to serve as character foils, (2) allows there to be a better reason for why the Fire Nation waged the Hundred Year War, as well allow for more interesting stories to be told of Zuko and his descendants reforming the Fire Nation, and (3) the franchise’s stance on the nature versus nurture debate would be kept in tact.

This is because, in regards to point (1), Sozin, Azulon, Ozai, and Azula not only serve as character foils to members of their family, but also other people in the other nations as well.

And the four Fire Nation royals serving as character foils not only enhances Avatar’s characterization, but also plays an important role in the narrative as well.

For example, one of the key parallels in ATLA is that between Zuko and Sozin, or more generally, their relationships with their respective Avatar over time.

(Yes, I do think Roku-Sozin are meant to be paralleled with Aang-Zuko since I don't think it was a mistake that Zuko and Aang learned about Roku and Sozin's past in the same episode.)

(Or that one of the last scenes in the show has Fire Lord Zuko at his coronation have Aang by his side not just as the Avatar, but also as his friend as well as evidenced by their hug just before Zuko got crowned.)

(Or that both Sozin and Zuko were given multiple, unearned chances by their respective Avatars to do better.)

This is because, despite growing up best friends with the Avatar, knowing true firebending, and growing up in a mostly peaceful world, Sozin’s lust for power and desire to spread the Fire Nation’s “greatness” caused him to forsake balance, which resulted in him dying a bitter, regretful old man who killed his best friend so he could start a genocidal war of conquest.

Meanwhile, despite only knowing rage-based firebending, growing up in a world at war, and being raised to believe that the Avatar was his nation’s sworn enemy, Zuko eventually rejected Sozin’s path and chose to follow Aang and help him restore balance.

And as a result of his strength of character, Zuko will more likely than not die a happy, old man, one who not only helped the world heal, but also managed to become best friends with Aang, despite everything that transpired between them during the first couple of months they knew each other.

Another key parallel is that between not only Zuko and Azula, but also Azula and Katara as well.

For in Zuko’s case, Azula serves as a reminder of what could have happened to Zuko if he never managed to (inadvertently) get out of Ozai’s thumb and eventually reject him for good.

Or more specifically, a conqueror with all the physical and political power in the world, but eventually goes mad since they have no one to share it with due to alienating everyone in their quest for power and Ozai’s approval.

Meanwhile, Azula serves as a reminder of what Katara could have become if she used her family trauma as justification to become an unrepentant monster.

That and if Katara was raised without love and taught that empathy was weakness, not a strength.

For they are both powerful benders, daughters of their nation’s respective heads of state, have hot-headed older bros who are swordsmen, trained under the same master, and whose (final) girlfriends are warriors.

Moreover, they have mother issues related to their missing mothers and serve as the emotional center of their groups, though Katara’s stays together while Azula’s fails apart due to Katara being able to love her companions while Azula is only capable of using fear to keep her companions in line.

But beyond the obvious parallels, there are also interesting parallels between Ozai and Hakoda, Iroh and Azula, and Ozai and Zuko.

This is because in the case of Ozai and Hakoda, they have dead or presumed to be dead wives, daughters who are bending prodigies, sons who wanted nothing more than to make them proud, and are elite warriors.

However, due to a combination of the cycle of abuse and his insatiable lust for power, Ozai constantly pushed his children and pitted them against each other, resulting in him losing the War and his freedom as one of his children went insane while the other betrayed him after realizing he had nothing of value to offer to them or the world.

Meanwhile, Hakoda was a supportive and loving father who taught his kids the value of family and friendship, and as result, he managed to win the War because his kids were able to work together and support each other and their friends.

In regards to Iroh and Azula, even though on the surface they don’t seem to share that much in common, especially since their personalities are different, they not only are very similar people, but also serve as direct foils to each other.

For they were both brilliant military strategists and tacticians with hot headed brothers, brothers who grew up in their shadows due to them not being able to keep up with their psychotic fathers’ expectations while they easily met them, and thus “thrived.”

They were the favored children of genocidal warlords, in addition to being heavily sheltered and coddled bending prodigies who came up with several, new firebending techniques.

They have a tendency to manipulate and lie to those around them, were complicit in the Fire Nation’s war crimes, and killed people in combat.

(Yes, Iroh is complicit in the Fire Nation’s war crimes. This is because, beyond the fact that the TTRPG confirms he was the Rough Rhinos’ commander when they burned Jet’s village, he was a leading general and crown prince for several decades.)

(Moreover, it is highly unlikely he never sat in his father’s war council meetings, or was unaware of stuff like the Southern Raids, or what happened to the captured Southern Waterbenders.)

(Especially since the TTRPG implies he learned lightning redirection from observing waterbenders before Lu Ten’s death, and so, unless he met Foggy Swamp Tribe Waterbenders, he either participated in the Southern Raids or observed the captured Southern Waterbenders since the North hadn’t seen Fire Nation soldiers in eighty-five years.)

(Also, in my opinion, post-redemption Iroh is a liar and manipulator, even if it is for a good cause.)

(For he lied to Zuko and his crew about his true allegiances, hid the fact that he was a member of the White Lotus, and tried manipulating Zuko to turn into an outright traitor in the Catacombs, with the last point being really egregious in my opinion.)

(This is because he hadn’t done anything to challenge Zuko’s worldview, or help him see past it, instead trying to rely on his personal connection with Zuko.)

And they not only conquered, or tried conquering, Ba Sing Se, but also lost everything in their quests to fulfill their forefathers’ vile dreams.

However, partially due to his strength of character, and partially due to having more freedom and sanity, Iroh was able to use him hitting rock bottom to reflect and grow as a person before dedicating the rest of his life and afterlife to helping restore and maintain balance.

Meanwhile, as of current canon, Azula is incapable or unwilling to engage in self-reflection, remaining essentially the same person she was before her downfall, though much more dangerous as she has not only grown in power, but is now trying to unleash dark spirits so she can take down her brother’s regime so she can retake the throne and restart the Hundred Year War.

Finally, in regards to Ozai and Zuko, it is pretty obvious from the way adult Zuko looks like Ozai, Zuko’s initial aggressive bending style, the fact that they are both hot-heads who lived in the shadow of their prodigal siblings and resented them for it, at least until he defected in Zuko’s case, and the fact they were their father’s unfavored child that they are character foils.

Or in other words, Ozai is what Zuko could have become if he never got out of his father’s thumb, didn’t have positive influences like Ursa and (post-redemption) Iroh, and let his hate and desire for his father’s love warp him into a monster, one who continued the cycle of abuse and War in order to fill the gaping hole in his heart caused by a lack of parental love.

I could go on, but the point is that Sozin, Azulon, Ozai, and Azula play important roles as character foils to several of the main characters, not only strengthening their characterization, but also the narrative as a whole.

However, if they are written as having ASPD, their ability to serve as character foils is severely weakened, not only weakening the characterization of several characters, but also ATLA’s narrative as a whole as well.

For if Sozin has ASPD, then the parallel between the Sozin-Roku and Zuko-Aang relationship is lost, or at least severely weakened, since Sozin becoming a genocidal tyrant is due to his genetics, and not because he made the wrong choices in life.

If Azulon has ASPD, then a large amount of the differences between his children can be chalked up to Ozai inheriting his ASPD while Iroh did not, instead of the differences in how they were raised, their different life experiences, and strength of character, or lack thereof, explaining why ended becoming the people they did, as well as their eventual fates.

If Ozai has ASPD, then his failures as a man, father, brother, and ruler aren’t due to his upbringing and his weakness of character, but instead due to his genetics.

If Azula has ASPD, then her ability to serve as a dark reflection of what could have been for Zuko and Katara is lost since Azula becoming and staying evil is a result of her genetics, and not her choices.

And more generally, if they have ASPD, then the four of them starting and continuing to wage the Hundred Year War can be chalked up to their genetics and them being in positions of unchecked power, which leads into both my second and third points.

This is because, in regards to point (2), if Azula, Ozai, Azulon, and Sozin have ASPD, then the reason why the Fire Nation started the Hundred Year War essentially becomes bad people who were on the throne and/or had power.

Whereas if Azula, Ozai, Azulon, and Sozin don’t have ASPD, then the reason why the Hundred Year occurred can be seen as the end result of the Royal Family over the centuries engaging in greater violence, as well as enacting more and more centralization and authoritarian measures, to prevent the spilling of blood, resulting in them losing the plot.

That and the Fire Nation being fundamentally flawed since it was created and maintained through acts of violence.

For the first Fire Lord united the war-torn Fire Islands, thus ushering a prolonged period of peace, by violently bringing the warring clans to heel.

Centuries, if not thousands of years, later, when it became apparent that political conspiracies and economic crises that came about due to nobles clashing with the Fire Lord, as well as the Royal Family fighting amongst itself, periodically weakened the Fire Lord’s authority to the point that bloody civil wars often occurred, Fire Lord Yosor, working with Avatar Szeto, helped stabilize the Fire Nation by implementing political and economic reforms that, among other things, centralized power in the national government’s bureaucracy, which was obviously controlled by the Fire Lord.

However, Yosor and Szeto’s reforms were still not enough to ensure peace, for the clans’ conflict with the crown, which at this point was held by Fire Lord Zoryu, almost led to a civil war in what came to be known as the Camellia-Peony War. Thus, Zoryu began a multi-generational project in which the clans’ power would permanently be dissolved, with the only figure able to wield power being the Fire Lord.

And while it took centuries, Sozin completed the project, which not only ensured, as far as Sozin and the Royal Family were concerned, the Fire Nation’s peace and prosperity, but also enabled Sozin to pursue policies to uplift all of his subjects.

And after seeing the success of the policies he implemented, Sozin then had the bright idea of spreading the Fire Nation’s propensity by any means possible.

For while it was utterly evil and led to an incalculable amount of lost and/or ruined lives, it would make complete sense from his point of view considering one could easily make the argument that life in the Fire Nation got better as the Fire Lord concentrated more and more power in the throne, as well engaged in increasing amounts of violence to keep the peace.

And obviously his descendants, especially Ozai and Azula, would agree with Sozin’s worldview considering he embarked on a historical revision project so widespread and successful that not only was there one place in the Fire Nation by the end of the War that had unbiased historical records, the Dragonbone Catacombs, but also had managed to brainwash the Fire Nation to the point that they thought that Airbending was demonic and that the pacifist Air Nomads were in fact the Air Nation and had a standing army.

So, if the above explanation of why the Fire Nation waged the Hundred Year War is canon, instead of the “bad people on the throne” explanation, then Zuko and his descendants’ task of reforming the Fire Nation likewise becomes that much more complicated, and thus allows for richer storytelling.

For instead having to only make to sure that no one with ASPD inherits the throne or is in a position to wield power, Zuko and his descendants would have to ask hard questions about the nature of the Fire Nation government and why the Fire Nation ended up waging the Hundred Year War, questions like, “Are human rights compatible with absolute monarchies?”, “What do we have to do in order to not only de-Sozinize our people, but also make sure that Sozism and related strains of thought never become popular again?” before then taking action to implement solutions to those questions.

And the process of them trying to come with and implement reforms in order to make sure the Fire Nation never starts another war like the Hundred Year War, as well deal with issues in regards to said reforms as they pop up, would lead to compelling stories.

Especially since there are few things that can provide credible physical challenges to the post-war Gaang or post-Season 4 Krew, and so, in order to tell compelling stories with real stakes, they need non-physical problems or threats they can’t punch their way through.

For example, imagine seeing Zuko trying to implement democratic reforms after realizing that part of the issue was that one man had the power to plunge the world into chaos, struggling to get the nobility and upper classes to accept the lost their privileges and power, as well establish democratic norms in a nation with no known history of democracy?

Or seeing Izumi fight back against a populist resurgence of Sozism as most of the people who lived through the end of the Hundred Year War are now dead or old, struggling to put down it without becoming a tyrant?

Finally, in regards to point (3), regardless of how people feel about it, the franchise has been pretty consistent on which side of the nurture vs nature debate it stands with, constantly implying, if not outright stating, that its heroes and villains alike are products of nurture, not nature.

Moreover, the franchise has provided explanations, but never justifications, for why various villainous characters like Yun, Amon and Kuriva ended up doing the evil things they ended up doing, ranging from being betrayed by their father figure after being lied to their whole lives, being warped by abusive parenting, to unresolved abandonment issues.

However, the franchise’s consistent stance that evil is a product of nurture, not nature, would be heavily contracted if Azula, Ozai, and Azulon, and/or Sozin were written to have ASPD, at least to the degree that fandom thinks they have it.

For while ASPD is not a guarantee that someone would become a threat to society, as seen by the fact that a famous ASPD researcher has ASPD himself, yet managed to have a productive, normal life with friends and family, most people think that people with ASPD have the malignant version of it, as seen in various other artistic works like We Need to Talk About Kevin.

So, in combination with the fact that Azula, Ozai, and Azulon, and Sozin in all likelihood will never have their upbringings detailed on-screen or on-panel, if they are written to have ASPD, the audience will more likely than not assume that they were born with malignant ASPD, and thus born evil.

“Ok, you make some good points, but what if I don’t I don’t want Azula, Ozai, Azulon, and/or Sozin to be anything more than uncomplicated villains?”

“For a lot of shows nowadays have complicated villains with motives, and so giving the four Fire Nation Royals motives behind their evildoing would take away a lot from their uniqueness, and more generally, Avatar’s uniqueness as a franchise.”

“Like, what happened to villains who wanted to do evil just because?”

I agree with the sentiment that the trend of making every villain complicated might have gone too far, and that sometimes it is better to have uncomplicated villains who do evil just because.

But Avatar is a not a franchise with uncomplicated characters for the most part, as seen with not only the existence of characters with Hama and Jet, but also the inordinate amount of time the narrative spends humanizing the Fire Nation, even though it would have been very easy to paint them as ontologically evil.

So, by giving Azula, Ozai, Azulon, and Sozin motives for their evildoing beyond having ASPD, it wouldn’t take away from their uniqueness, or the Avatar franchise’s uniqueness in general, but in fact enhance it.

“Ok, writing Azula, Ozai, Azulon, and Sozin as not having ASPD wouldn’t ruin their characters, but what if I want them to have ASPD because it would enhance Avatar’s story.”

“Or more specifically, by writing those four as having ASPD, it would allow audiences to learn how to recognize those suffering from ASPD, or at least the malignant version of it, and learn how to deal with their behavior. And more generally, that not everyone’s issues can be solved with love and/or therapy, and that some people have to be taken down permanently for the good of society, or at least removed from society.”

In regards to the idea that writing Azula, Ozai, Azulon, and Sozin as having ASPD because it could teach audiences how to deal with people having ASPD, at least the malignant version, I would agree that be a good idea, if Avatar had a good track record of portraying mental health issues.

This is because Azula after Sozin’s Comet, or at least during her appearances in the pre-Faith Erin Hicks comics, is supposed to be suffering from split personality disorder.

However, as seen by the contentious discourse on what, if any, mental disorders Azula is suffering from, it is clear that they did not do a good job of showing that Azula was suffering from a split personality disorder.

In fact, there is a Word of Statement, one that is supported by various allusions in the post-Sozin’s Comet comics, that Azula and her fellow Fire Warriors were abused in their asylums, yet there is little to no time spent focusing on how their experiences informed their behavior.

So I am skeptical that they would be able to properly show all the symptoms and co-morbidities associated with ASPD, and not just rely on and perpetuate stereotypes like they did with Azula and the Fire Warriors.

Also, just because Azula, Ozai, Azulon, and Sozin don’t have ASPD doesn’t mean their issues could be solved with love and/or therapy, or that social sanitation couldn’t be practiced in regards to them.

For not every troubled individual has ASPD, nor does everyone who committed heinous crimes worthy of being jailed for life have ASPD, so why can’t Azula, Ozai, Azulon, and Azulon be treated like those people?

“Ok, but what if I want Azula, Ozai, Azulon, and Sozin to have ASPD because I fear that giving them any nuance would be akin to excusing their crimes and abusive behavior and pressure Bryke into redeeming them, or at least suggesting they could have been redeemed in Azulon and Sozin’s cases?”

Just because there is an explanation for why the four Fire Nation Royals did horrible things wouldn't justify them, nor would it excuse anything.

For Sozin would still be the man who betrayed his best friend, turned his only son into a genocidal warlord, brainwashed his subjects into waging a genocidal war of conquest and imperialism, and responsible for the Airbender Genocide.

Azulon would still be the man who continued his father’s genocidal war of conquest and imperialism, turned both of his kids into genocidal warlords, responsible for the Southern Waterbender Genocide, had Ursa kidnapped and raped so his bloodline’s continued rule would be assured, and condoned Ozai’s abuse of both his children.

Ozai would still be the man who continued his forefathers’ genocidal war of conquest and imperialism, abused his wife and kids, murdered his father and usurped his older brother after coercing his wife to do the former for him, and attempted to genocide the Earth Kingdom.

And Azula would still be girl who conquered the Earth Kingdom, abused her brother and “friends,” murdered Aang, aided and abetted her father’s efforts to genocide the Earth Kingdom, attempted to kill her mother, brother, “friend,” and uncle, kidnapped a bunch of children, including her half-sister, and is currently engaged in domestic terrorism.

Moreover, just because there is an explanation for their evil beyond ASPD doesn’t mean that any of Azula, Ozai, Azulon, or Sozin have to be redeemed or have it be suggested that they could have been redeemed.

For just like The Avatar and the Fire Lord made clear (in my opinion) that just because Sozin felt guilty for betraying Roku and starting the Hundred Year War didn’t make him redeemable, there is nothing preventing Azulon remaining the unrepentant monster who was slain by the monster he created, Ozai spending the rest of his life seething in his cell, or Azula remaining a domestic terrorist incapable or unwilling to engage in self-reflection before the Gaang finally stops her for good beyond Bryke’s desires.

So to conclude, I don’t think there is anything wrong with seeing Azula, Ozai, Azulon, and/or Sozin having ASPD, and in fact, I think there are strong arguments to support such a view.

But what I am saying is that writing them as having ASPD is a bad storytelling choice since it ruins or weakens their ability to serve as narrative foils, eliminates potentially more complicated reasons for why the Fire Nation waged the Hundred Year War, as well the complex, engaging stories the franchise can tell of Zuko and his descendants’ ongoing struggles to reform the Fire Nation, and would be inconsistent with the franchise’s stance on the nurture versus nature debate.

And at the end of day, isn’t the Avatar franchise at its best when it is telling stories with engaging narratives and complex characters, even if the conflict is black and white?

#atla #tlok #atla comics #azula #ozai #azulon #sozin #fire nation #post war fire nation #atla meta #tlok meta #atla comics critical #azula meta #ozai meta #azulon meta #sozin meta #fire nation meta #post war fire nation meta #justanotherthrowaway1950meta

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impossiblycolorfulpanda · 6 months

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Just now read azula in the spirit temple

I wasn't sure what I'd expect but it almost feels like a crossroads of destiny for Azula. Ehaz did say that her redemption would be longer and far more complicated than Azula's, maybe that's what they're trying to do here.

But honestly, a part of me doesn't really care if she gets redeemed or not anymore, so long as she never replaces Ozai as the prime antagonist of Aang's saga or somehow becomes more deserving of death than he is.

There's something else they could do next with her. Remember Aang using that energy tracker thingy to find Appa in the swamp? Aang could do the same to find Azula, but there's a side effect due to Azula being a descendant of Aang's past life Roku. They end up with a spirit bond which allows them to understand each other better and share each other's experiences.

Maybe Zuko can pick up his blue spirit mantle, find Azula under Aang's direction, he lures her into the catacombs, she reads all of Sozin's tales, and Zuko drops the twist on her that they are both grandchildren of avatar Roku. This breaks away another piece of her false reality away from her, causing mental problems.

Zuko can then decide to temporarily leave the throne which forces Iroh to be in charge. This causes confusion on Azula's part. All her plans start crumbling and she starts mentally deteriorating once again. But then comes up with a new plan. Instead of trying to corrupt Zuko, she tries to corrupt Aang using the bond. But it's not as easy as she expected with Aang now understanding her own psychology, using it against her, and trying to bring out the good in her.

We can perhaps give Ozai his own story. Maybe he can do what Iroh did and do various exercises, adapting to his non-bender skills. Ozai could discover energybending side-effects that surprisingly benefit him despite still not having bending. It sets up teases of his escape, returning as the prime antagonist of Aang's saga once again and the creation of the red lotus through him. It can reveal that the fire warriors were working for him this whole time and he was the one who told Azula to free them in the first place.

#atla #azula #azula redemption #zuko #aang #ozai #red lotus #spirit bond #energybending

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bluewithpurplepolkadots · 6 months

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I know this is probably sacrilege for what is considered the king of redemption arcs. But I don’t actually care for the idea of Zuko having a conflict between good and evil within him because his other great grandfather was Roku.

Don’t get me wrong: I don’t hate Zuko actually being his descendant in general or anything. It’s more the idea of it being The Ultimate Reason Zuko is Different I take issue with.

One of the things I like about him and Azula being his descendant is a layer it adds to Azulon (in the comics: though I’ll groke to not having read them), to explain how the hell it happened, because in the show alone it is pretty out there as an idea (given Sozin’s all consuming hatred of his former friend).

Azulon practiced what was basically eugenics on his younger son. It was another fucked up cherry on top about what we knew in the show about the man (and also makes him willing to prune the family tree of the resulting disappointment of that experiment make even more sense in context).

But I don’t really like it framed as a major reason or ‘point zero’ as it were for Zuko’s internal conflict or why the he is the way he is. To say nothing of the fact it gets weird when you look at Iroh (with no Roku ancestry and gets to turn away) and Azula (who does and doesn’t get to turn away).

Nah. I think it’s better that he instead would have a combination of

a) Being pushed away by his father and being embraced and slightly coddled by his mother: a woman who has a much kinder and gentler disposition. Even if, like everyone in the FN at the time, she only cares at all for those within her own country. This also means Azula makes sense, as she was able to meet Ozai’s expectations for a long time and Ursa had less of an ability to have an impact on her. Ursa only got to influence Zuko so much because he was already disappointing to his father and he gave up on him entirely. Had Zuko been a prodigy like Azula, Zuko would probably be just like her. Thoughts for others are weaknesses to be stamped out. Iroh should be able to simply burn Ba Sing Se to the ground etc.

Zuko thanks to his mother’s influence has a stronger ability to care for people, but only of his own family and nation initially. (Which makes sense). He gets punished for it by his father and thus while banished he hardens himself because of his ‘weakness’. His already ingrained bigotry against other nations continues unquestioned until he can start to view people outside it as people too, his indoctrination being chipped away at over time (bonus points that Aang in the blue spirit was really the first crack of this).

b) Iroh (after Ursa’s influence meaning he saw good in him and feeling shame for not stepping in at the Agni Kai) being Zuko’s true father figure. Someone who Zuko later also betrayed/ looked away from. Both on some level want to atone for that: this shame influenced them internally and thus each other.

I don’t completely hate the idea that Iroh himself might in fact still think Rokus bloodline is the Reason. Like Iroh and Zuko are after all royalty. They’d have ‘views’ on lineage at the end of the day.

Hell, Iroh might even in some way if he’s broken through his own conditioning, think maybe Zuko (such as he is) would need to hear that sort of thing to make the final jump.

But how it’s framed makes me feel like we’re absolutely supposed to take it as gospel as to the Reason Zuko is different and has the capability to do good is due to his bloodline.

I mean arguably in a twisty way we could argue maybe it almost is for that reason: the fact Zuko got that chance to be different was due to Ursa: who after all is Roku’s granddaughter and thus has been raised to be kinder in general then the rest of the royal family: but the way it’s worded on screen feels strange to me.

#Atla #Zuko #criticism I guess?#like it doesn’t ruin the show or anything I just find it a bit off putting

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likeadragonfruit · 1 year

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Out of curiosity, what was the reception to Azula’s character in Book 2 and 3 way back then

Oh, thank you for this ask, anon.

To really encompass the (online) reception is to consider opinions across various fan sites and forums from that era (not only for Avatar specifically but also animation communities in general), the fanfiction of the era, and the livejournal community.

For my part, I’ll state up front my limitations regarding this topic: I really only flit in and out of a couple of forums during book 3, and stuck around some after the finale. My experiences reading ATLA fics of that era were in the wake of the finale. And my experiences with livejournal never centered around Avatar. I can supplement this with reading I did of Azula discussions on an old Avatar forum recently.

I’ll also tag @captain-azoren if he wants to add his input, and leave this open to anyone else who has more firsthand experience with that era.

That said, here’s what I can say from a mix of what I remember from back then and read more more recently:

fairly early on, people kept being surprised that Azula is only 14; people confusing her for Zuko’s older sister has always been a thing

There were a couple of people who picked up on the possibility of Azula feeling neglected by Ursa, but this wasn’t a common observation

In the build up to book 3, a theory that Azula supplant Ozai is the main antagonist cropped up.

“The Beach” was a turning point in some ways. It was divisive, with some wanting to throw it out/ignore it for Azula “appearing too out of character” while others appreciated for humanizing her some. A fair bit of surprise at depicting Azula as something other than heartless. (Of course, others just laughed regardless.)

The finale, while largely praised for Grey Delisle’s performance and The Last Agni Kai, was divisive in regards to what Azula’s fate likely was and should’ve been.

A lot of claims of Azula being a sociopath flying around throughout all of this. (So many…)

As to the direct question, overall I’d say some appreciation of her as a villain, and some strong dislike/demonization. And just saying the latter doesn’t quite encapsulate the intensity of that demonization, or the insistence that other people also agreed. For that, I’ll just drop some selected quotes from forum posts made in 2007:

Well she was loved or admired greatly by her father and grandfather. She is soooo evil though its like she is not even human. No compassion what so ever. — a poster on Azula

Real intimacy is completely outside the scope of Azula's understanding. I've had this image in my head for a long time of laying next to Azula, having done the deed -- and her turning into a preying mantis and biting my head off. — a poster regarding Azula after “The Beach” aired

I really do think that Azula would throw away Ty Lee and Mai without a second thought. She Doesnt even have a friendship to keep her normal like Sozin did. Shes more like her father, has no emotional attatchment to any one not even her family. She only looks out for herself. — a poster speculating about the second half of book 3 during the seven month hiatus

Azula is truly the descendant of Sozin and Ozai. A Roku/Ursa side is virtually nonexistent, unlike with Zuko. — a poster regarding Azula after “The Avatar and The Fire Lord” aired

So what we're saying is that she wasn't MADE evil by some outside force. She became wicked all on her lonesome. So, you could say that she WAS born evil in a sense. Ever since she's been physically capable of complex thought, she's been a bad person. — a poster regarding Azula on what “Zuko Alone” said about her

I’ll also point out that most of these statements got some pushback at the time. But nonetheless, these are some pretty wild takes.

Anyway, I don’t feel comfortable trying to put ratios to that reception, but I do think overall there are more people sympathetic to Azula now than back in 2005-2008, as well as looking at her character through different lenses.

#answered asks #anon #azula #old fandom takes on Azula #that’s about what I can say on this topic #but if you ever want a firsthand account of fandom history for the Naruto fandom circa 2006 to 2009/2010 #feel free to ask #do I ever have stories about back then…

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witchzoe · 2 years

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The episode "The Avatar and The Firelord" is an interesting insight in Iroh's characters.

In the episode we learn about the story of Sozin Roku's friendship. And we see what conclusion's Iroh dreaws from that story, namely that Zuko is the only one able to fix the Fire Nation, because he is a descendant of the last Avatar. And to a lesser extent it is implied that Irohs views the bloodline of Sozin as inherently evil (Iroh says to Zuko that because of his legacy evil and good are always at war inside him).

And it seems like Iroh really believes this. It would explain why Iroh never challenged Ozai for the throne and end the war himself, despite being a great fire bender and being able to redirect lightning.

And it seems like the show does disagree with Iroh to some extent. Aangs conclusion, that everybody has good and evil inside him, comes as a rebuttal to Toph's remark about some people just being born evil.

So why does Iroh believe that only Zuko is able to fix the Fire Nation? There are a few possibilities, whuch all gives some insight in his characer:

Iroh heavily believes in destiny in generell. Besides this, Iroh also very heavily believed that he was destined to conquer Ba Sing Se, becoming very fixated on that city, as another example

It is very convienent for Iroh. If Zuko is the only one who can fix the Fire Nation, Iroh doesn't have to fix it. He can wash his hands of any responsibility he has in fixing the Fire Nation and repaying for the sins of the past. Psuhing all the responsibility solely on Zuko.

It could misplaced guilt. Maybe his beliefs that the line of Sozin is inherently evil, which would also mean that he would be inherently evil, is a result of guilt about his past actions and the resulting self-loathing.

It helps him with Lu Ten's death. Zuko was the only the fourth in line to the throne, he would only ever be near if Lu Ten died childless. So for Zuko being able to fulfill his destiny, Lu Ten had to die. Maybe the thought that Lu Ten's death was preordained comforts Iroh and absolves him of some of the blame he carries for Lu Ten's death.

These would be the reasons, that i can imagine for Iroh believing that only Zuko is able to fix the Fire Nation. If you can think about other reasons, please tell me them!

#atla #avatar: the last airbender #the avatar and the firelord #iroh meta #iroh #zuko

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rainbow18 · 1 year

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Atla’s implied Sexism.

We get to see some Male Villains before they became the way they are. Whereas we don’t for Female Villains. The only exception is Hama and even then, it’s because The Writers needed a way to explain why a non fire Nation citizen is in the Fire Nation.

There isn’t a single Female member of the white lotus.

Katara’s anger at Zuko was depicted as “Irrational” and/or “Projecting” even though She named very good reasons to be mad at Zuko.

Following on that, Whenever a Female is furious and/or Throws a Tantrum, it’s portrayed negatively but when a male does it, it’s hardly a big deal unless said Male is a villain. The only exception is Katara’s anger at Pakku and even then, That was only done because the writers wanted to make parallels and contrasts between Aang and Katara.

Azula and Zuko are literally a example of the whole “Mommy Issues makes you a psychopath while Daddy issues makes you a People pleaser” thing.

Ty Lee and Mai became friends with The Kyoshi Warriors offscreen.

ZUKO is stated to have good and bad in him because he’s descended from Sozin and Roku. Yet this doesn’t appear to apply to Azula.

Iroh has years long history of being a war general. Azula/Ty Lee/Mai have only participated in the war for a few months yet They are held more accountable despite being minors. (I know that Technically Iroh got captured by some Earth Benders however we’re not supposed to sympathize with them.)

Male Benders outnumber Female Benders by a large amount.

Sozin’s loss of Sanity and Humanity was slow while Azula’s was quick.

Zuko remembers Aang suggesting that they could be friends. But He doesn’t remember Katara, Song or Jin.

Both Sozin and Roku fondly remember the time when they were friends even though they became enemies. However this isn’t the case with Azula, Mai and Ty Lee.

#atla critical

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sokkastyles · 2 years

Text

Reading ATLA: The Promise

Part 1: pages 27-65

Previous post here.

If this comic is supposed to take place a year after the events of ATLA, how come Zuko's hair isn't grown out? Considering how fast it grew in less than a year in the series, why does he still have that crappy white guy haircut?

So while Zuko is busy falling apart, Aang is in the FN helping with the restoration movement and speaking for the Fire Lord, but apparently they’ve had no communication with each other? This plot makes NO sense.

Aang: “Don’t worry, everyone I’ve helped move from the colonies to the mainland totally loves it and is welcome!”

One page later:

Katara and her OMG face: “The last time I saw Zuko, I was sanctioning his death under the assumption that he might theoretically turn against us. I am totally shocked now that this thing that I predicted would happen seems to have happened! I wonder if this problem would have been solved by communicating with and trusting my friends, like we learned to do when Zuko joined us at the Western Air Temple? Nah, I’m just gonna stand there and look in distress.”

Meanwhile, we jump to Toph’s metalbending academy! This I like. Why is this not something Toph continued to pursue as a career in LOK? We quickly learn, from Toph’s students, that something is happening in Yu Dao, which is apparently near enough to Toph’s school that ALL of her students’ parents live there. Toph wants to know what’s going on, and spots Appa and, in a scene that completely defies the established laws of how bending works in the series, flies on a rock to join the gaang and ask what’s going on.

Toph being so quick to say that Zuko is, specifically, acting like Ozai is so completely contradictory to her character. in ATLA she was the first person to believe in him at the Western Air Temple, and she also understands wanting to be seen as an individual and not be shadowed by your parents’ expectations, so for her to immediately jump to “Oh no, he’s acting like his dad” is strange.

The other thing is that it seems weird for her NOT to know about or understand what is going on in Yu Dao or be able to see it with a more nuanced perspective, especially since the unrest seems to have been occurring long before Zuko got there, since her school is so close to the city and her students apparently live there, ALL of them, as the comic states. These are earthbenders that wear green but their parents live in Yu Dao, which is part of the Fire Nation. So, the issue of multiculturalism in the colonies is one she should already be able to understand. I’m saying this as someone who teaches at a school with a large population of children whose parents are immigrants. I don’t like how this comic simplifies things for the sake of manufactured conflict.

Then Aang has a spirit conversation with Roku where Roku tries to discourage Aang from talking to Zuko and encourages him to just kill him instead. Now, I do think it makes sense that Roku is projecting his own experiences with Sozin onto Aang and Zuko, but the lesson shouldn’t be “talking is bad, killing good.” The message should be about not being blinded by your own biases, which ALSO includes acting before thinking just as much as it includes the dangers of acting too late.

Also wasn’t there a whole deal in ATLA where Zuko’s “good side” was explained by him having the blood of Roku and Sozin inside him? While I did think the whole “genetics determines your destiny” thing was reductive when ATLA did it, and contrary to the overall message of the story, which is that individuals determine their own destiny, I feel like Roku’s message here is kinda backtracking on that? If Zuko has the capacity for good because he is not just Sozin’s descendant, but Roku’s, then why is Roku so quick to not believe in that goodness?

Isn’t that Smellerbee, who in ATLA tried to encourage Jet to stop being blinded by hatred and wanted to start a new life? Also, let’s keep jokingly misgendering her, that’s fun.

The last time we saw Katara and Aang develop their relationship, they were rudely interrupted just as they were about to “figure out what they meant to each other.” Now, after a year time skip, they are calling each other sweetie.

Relationship development: footage not found.

Let’s take a minute to appreciate these guards, who are SHOCKED and APPALLED that the Avatar, the Last Airbender, flew over their wall with his little glider.

Semantics question: Did the comics mispell “flameo,” or is “flamio” the plural form when addressing multiple hotmen?

I actually think Aang greeting them this way is hilariously in character. Also, let’s hear it for this general who’s like, “yeah, I’m gonna fight the Avatar! I’m sure Fire Lord Zuko would want me to do this!”

So then Aang fights these Fire Nation soldiers. Katara stands there and screams and only intervenes because she’s mad that the soldiers, and I quote, won’t “stop trying to set my boyfriend on fire.” Katara, who in ATLA hardly needed an invitation to get involved in a righteous fight.

Then we have the infamous “Zuko grabbing Katara’s wrist” scene, which I already wrote about here, but now that I have the full context I want to reiterate how ridiculous it is that people on the internet try to paint this as “abuse” when Aang and Katara broke into a protected city that is being besieged by freedom fighters, started attacking the soldiers there, and Zuko has NO IDEA why they are there because apparently NO ONE IN THIS COMIC TALKS TO EACH OTHER. Granted, Zuko also had to have the idiot ball to create this conflict in the first place, but from his perspective, he’s protecting people, and Katara (as Zuko reminded us) is a big girl and a master waterbender in her own right, who is able to defeat a whole retinue of soldiers single-handedly. Zuko holding her wrist and telling her to stop attacking people is not abuse. In fact, it’s one of the few times in this comic so far that someone has tried to stop the fighting instead of just mindlessly attacking.

Also, Katara says “Don’t make me hurt you back” to Zuko while he’s holding her hands behind her back. Am I NOT supposed to read this as kinky?

So then Zuko and Aang fight, Aang says Zuko “has changed” except neither of them communicated with each other before attacking first. Then Aang gets so enraged that he goes into the Avatar state and only Katara can calm him down and stop him from attacking Zuko. Should we be worrying about Aang’s emotional state and how he’s so quick to move towards uncontrollable violence, and how upsetting this is for Katara to witness? No, apparently these things are only an issue when you come from the wrong family. This is a good message (sarcasm alert).

I don’t really have much to say about the next part that wouldn’t already be rehashing what I’ve said before. Zuko talks about realizing that there are people here that consider themselves both a part of the Earth Kingdom and Fire Nation, that removing all the Fire Nation would require separating multicultural families. He says some misguided things about how “everyone is better off now” and Aang says that they can only have peace if they are separate. There IS a good conflict here, I just wish it would have been better written. Obviously there’s the issue of exploitation, and we see scenes of Earth Kingdom people being exploited that are supposed to make us question what Zuko says about how they’re both better off. Zuko’s comment comes from a place of not understanding his privilege but he’s also coming from the perspective of a defeated nation that he’s been tasked with protecting. If Zuko hadn’t intervened, there probably would have been fighting in Yu Dao regardless. And keeping the nations separate doesn’t solve that issue, especially if Zuko is supposed to be working with the leaders of the other nations. Aang’s stance on how balance can only be achieved through separation sounds a lot like “separate, but equal.” You don’t end oppression by keeping people separate, you end it by teaching people how to live with each other.

Toph I<3U

#atla comics critial #the promise #atla comics #zuko #katara #antikataang #zutara #aang #toph

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ellakomskaikru · 2 years

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What I think of Ursa

What I think of her backstory:

Unlike so many others I’ve seen, I don’t think that the backstory they gave her in the comics was bad. Ursa’s maternal grandfather was Avatar Roku, who openly defied Fire Lord Sozin’s plans to take over the world. Yes, Roku was obviously a noble because he was Sozin’s best friend since before he even knew he was the avatar. But Roku was probably still considered a huge traitor of the Fire Nation for defying Sozin, and thus his family must have been “dishonored”. So I think it makes sense that Roku’s wife and daughter would not be able to live in the capital city as nobles. And even if they were allowed, I doubt they’d want to since they didn’t support the war. So it makes sense that Roku would place his daughter Rina in Hira’a, a backwater village on the outskirts of the Fire Nation, to protect her from any potential attacks from the Fire Nation royal family.

While there, Rina met and married Jinsuk, who was a commoner from the village of Hira’a, and together, they had Ursa. So technically Ursa would be half commoner and half noble by blood, since her mother Rina was born as the daughter of two nobles, Avatar Roku and Ta Min. Ursa’s original backstory also doesn’t make much sense to me. It says that she was born into the Fire Nation royal family. If that were true, that would mean that she was Ozai’s sister. She was obviously a royal by marriage and not by blood. So I just think it makes much more sense that Ursa, although having noble blood, would be raised as a commoner for her own safety. I think Roku wouldn’t want his descendants anywhere near the royal family. So although I don’t agree with all of her characterization in the comics, I do agree with her backstory.

Ursa’s relationship with her children:

Ursa being forced to marry Ozai and bare his children was also something that probably made her bitter. Ursa loved her children and didn’t blame them for her being forced to marry their father. But still, she was only human, and I think it’s possible that it was easier for her to accept Zuko as her child because he was more like her but it was harder for her to accept Azula because she reminded her so much of Ozai. This isn’t to say that Ursa didn’t love Azula, she did. But I think it might have been hard for Ursa to truly connect with Azula because she saw so much of Ozai in her. That’s why she’d correct her. She corrected her because she loved her. If Ursa didn’t love Azula she wouldn’t care that Ozai was influencing her behavior. It confused Azula however, because the very same behaviors that Ozai would praise her for were the behaviors that her mother would scold her for.

I also think that Ursa genuinely didn’t really care about firebending. So when Ursa would have no reaction when Azula would perfectly do a firebending performance would make Azula think that her mother didn’t like her. To Azula, love was praise. That’s what Ozai taught her. So when Ursa would not praise her for her skills, it would hurt Azula’s feelings. So in short, Ursa loved Azula, but that love wasn’t given in a way that Azula could understand.

I do not think that Ursa was a perfect mother. Not at all. But how could she be? She was not in a good situation. She was in an abusive marriage with a man who was abusive to both her children in different ways. I’m pretty sure that took a toll on her mental health. I also do think that because Ozai favored Azula, Ursa thought that she had to pay extra attention to Zuko and love him twice as much because Ozai favored Azula. However, we all know that Ozai didn’t really love Azula. The poor child was very love starved. Praise is not love. He never kissed her on the head. He never hugged her. And Azula, like all human beings, needed to be loved. Azula knew that her father would never give her the affection she needed, which left her desperate for her mother’s love, who she knew did give the type of affection she needed. So I think Ursa’s mistake was thinking that Ozai did truly love Azula in his own way, despite him teaching her horrible values, which may have made her unintentionally neglect Azula emotionally.

I have empathy for Ursa, but I think she was a flawed character like all the others. I think Azula’s perception of her mother was not 100% correct, but it wasn’t completely incorrect either. Ursa did love Azula, but she did favor Zuko because Ursa felt like he needed her more. Ursa correcting Azula was done out of love for her, but because of her father’s influence, Azula saw it as her mother disliking her. If the writers let Ursa and Azula reconcile, Ursa needs to make sure Azula knows that she really loves her. The first step in Azula’s healing requires her to know that she is loved and to really learn that what her father had for her was not love. So I like Ursa for being there for Zuko as much as she could before she was banished, but I do think she made some very human mistakes as Azula’s mother. However, I do think they can be resolved.

#Ursa #Azula #Zuko #avatar: the last airbender #Ella’s original post

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