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bringmemyrocks · 3 months

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On the Neturei Karta: Contextualizing criticism of an ultra-religious group

TL;DR: The Neturei Karta is a far-right ultra-orthodox religious Jewish group that is politically and religiously opposed to Zionism and is pro-Palestine. They believe in a strict interpretation of the Torah and are extremely socially conservative. They see Israel as dangerous for both Jews and Palestinians. Like most religious adherents to Abrahamic religions, they believe in end times where a messianic figure will come. Like most people who hold these beliefs, these long-term messianic beliefs are not central to their religion and do not impact their allyship or activism in any meaningful way (think 1000s of years hence, like Jesus returning in Islam, or in Christianity outside of groups who think this is immanent/connected to modern Israel).

Additionally, most orthodox Jews, including ultra-orthodox Jews, are pro-Israel or at least are not pro-Palestine. Most “non-Zionist ultra orthodox Jews” including the Satmar do not support Palestine.

Note: This summary is about anti Zionist ultra Orthodox Jewish groups in the USA. I don't know about all such groups in Jerusalem, but I do know NK has a presence there. I am not arguing that NK are progressive. They are not, but neither are many others across the world who support Palestine. Read this post and make up your own mind.

This post does not go into great detail about all the different types of Judaism or all the different streams of Zionism. Some info will inevitably be left out. I recommend learning more history yourself; the first few chapters of The Hundred Year’s War on Palestine are a great start. Avoid Zionist publications like Jewish Virtual Library.

I highly recommend this interview that Palestinian-ally activist Miko Peled does with NK Rabbi David Feldman: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cSd_eZ5qcbo&t=32s

Miko is an excellent narrator, and this is one of his best yet.

Brief history of the NK

The Neturei Karta is an ultra-orthodox Jewish group that opposes the state of Israel and actively works against it and supports Palestine. This is different from non-Zionist ultra orthodox Jews who disagree with Israel from a religious perspective, but are still willing to support it politically. The NK believe only the Messiah can establish a Jewish state in Palestine (as an eschatological belief; not a political one), but they do not believe in an enforced Jewish majority at any time.

Their website, NKUSA.org is best accessed through the Wayback Machine, as many of their pages are currently under construction: https://web.archive.org/web/20090228203457/http://www.nkusa.org/aboutus/index.cfm

Instructions for those unfamiliar with the Wayback Machine: https://help.archive.org/help/using-the-wayback-machine/

Summary of NK beliefs re: Zionism

The Neturei Karta believe that no Jewish state should exist in Palestine without the coming of the Messiah. They believe this so strongly that they actively oppose the state’s existence and engage in Palestine solidarity work.

The Neturei Karta also argue that no ultra-orthodox Jew believes in religious Zionism, often citing the lack of Israeli flags in ultra orthodox neighborhoods. This neglects the many ultra-orthodox Jews who support Israeli politically but not religiously.

Such still-politically-Zionist Jews will refer to the state of Israel as “Eretz Yisroel” rather than “Israel” thus acknowledging the land but not the political state’s significance. They will engage in pro-Israel politics, but do not see the Nakba (1948) or Naksa (1967) as religious events. This does not mean that everyone who uses the phrase “eretz yisroel” is secretly a Zionist.

See Yated’s website: this is an ultra-orthodox publication that heavily supports Israel even if they do not believe the state is religiously legitimate. However, politically they are Zionist as in they support Israel.

Glossary

Orthodox Judaism

Orthodox Jews believe in the divine origin of the Torah, given to Moses at Sinai. They are more strict about dietary laws, laws of family purity, and laws of the sabbath than more liberal or progressive Jews (such as Conservative/Masorti, Reform, Reconstructionist, etc.--all beyond the scope of this post)

Ultra Orthodox/haredi (very broad strokes)

Orthodox Jews who believe in a strict interpretation of the Torah and are more insulated from the larger world, including the Jewish world. They often dress differently and are even stricter about dietary laws, and are more socially conservative than the Modern Orthodox (women often don’t attend synagogue, adhere to very strict rules of modesty, arranged marriages, etc.)

Within the ultra orthodox world, there are hasidic (charismatic, such as Satmar or Chabad, usually following a dynasty, often from Eastern Europe) and non-hasidic groups (everyone else, including haredi sephardim and the Neturei Karta.) The Neturei Karta are not hasidic.

Many ultra-orthodox groups, including the Neturei Karta, would be considered high-demand religious groups (cults). Given how strict they are, I don’t think this is an unfair characterization. I note this because liberal zionists use the NK’s religious stringencies as a means of discrediting their allyship to Palestine. Bad faith, but still worth noting.

Political Zionism:

This is the belief that Jews should establish a Jewish-majority state in Palestine. Popularized by Herzl’s Der Judenstaadt. Plenty of Zionists support Israel without it being a pillar of religious belief for them, but:

Religious Zionism:

This is the belief that the modern nation state of Israel is part of the fulfillment of religious prophecy (you find both Jews and Christians believing this). There are plenty of ultra-orthodox religious Zionists, although ultra-orthodox non-zionists/anti-zionists will claim that these groups should not call themselves “ultra-orthodox.”

Non-Zionist: 2 definitions in the Orthodox world

Ultra-orthodox Jews may describe themselves as not Zionist to other religious Jews to differentiate themselves from religious Zionists. They may still support Israel, just not as a part of their religious faith, or they may oppose it but not be pro-Palestine (see the Satmar Hasidim.) You will probably not run into this on Tumblr or in progressive/pro-Palestine spaces--please don’t use this as an excuse to make anti-Zionist Jews “prove themselves”--you won’t run into these people on Tumblr or at pro-Palestine actions. “Non-zionist” may mean “anti-zionist in all but name” in non-orthodox Jewish spaces.

When I speak about ultra-orthodox religious Jews describing themselves as not Zionist in religious Jewish spaces, this refers only to their interactions with other Jews. If you are not Jewish and someone describes themselves as anti-Zionist to you, you should assume it means they are pro-Palestine unless they make it clear they believe otherwise.

The Satmar (religiously but not politically anti zionist ultra-orthodox hasidic Jews) formally denounced the NK in 1967 (note: the NK were never Satmar, nor were they hasidic at all–this is simply a religiously antizionist sect distancing themselves from those who are both religiously and politically antizionist.)

https://x.com/HQSatmar/status/1744693660787040553

Some orthodox Jews are genuinely politically anti-Zionist. Examples include Rabbi Yaakov Shapiro, the Neturei Karta, and plenty of individuals although not many institutions.

More info on ultra-orthodox Jews and zionism at this Pew Research page (I don’t think Pew is great at surveying American Jews, but this particular page on haredim in Israel is interesting): https://www.pewresearch.org/religion/2016/03/08/views-of-the-jewish-state-and-the-diaspora/

This article: https://forward.com/opinion/411615/think-all-orthodox-jews-are-zionists-think-again/

To any Jew, especially someone who knows the orthodox world, there are many over-simplifications here. The purpose of this post is to talk about the Neturei Karta, so I’m glossing over a lot of the intricacies. You’re welcome to fight about “Is Chabad Ultra-Orthodox” in the comments.

Issues of social conservatism (homophobia, misogyny, etc.)

Neturei Karta’s social conservatism

As with virtually all ultra-orthodox Jews, the Neturei Karta are extremely socially conservative. They believe that men and women have distinct roles (thus you never see any women with the NK at protests) and that homosexuality is evil. Women are required to raise children, cannot become rabbis, and have to dress extremely modestly. If you’ve ever seen the documentary “Trembling Before God,” a documentary on LGBT orthodox Jews, the rabbis at the beginning protesting against homosexuality are the Neturei Karta. Again, no women present.

I should note that the Neturei Karta are no more conservative than other ultra-orthodox Jews (and the Modern Orthodox Jewish world has been moving rightward for decades). But many liberal Jews will defend orthodox Judaism, even when it comes to denying children basic education and healthcare. You see this on Tumblr constantly. Orthodox Jews do terrible things and are defended by other Jews because “they’re more visible” and (some) Jews are convinced that any public criticism of orthodoxy will harm Judaism as a whole by making very damaging parts of it look bad.

But these liberal Zionist Jews will never defend the Neturei Karta. Their criticisms of homophobia and misogyny in this particular orthodox group are done in bad faith when they insist (for example) that women and LGBT people are perfectly fine within orthodox spaces. This is false.

TL;DR: Social conservatism is huge in orthodox Judaism. The Neturei Karta are not unique in this.

US Muslim social conservatism

I should note here that most US Muslims and Muslim institutions are socially conservative. (In a similar way to Jewish anti-zionism, there are some smaller openly pro-LGBT Muslim communities, but they are not supported by the larger US Muslim establishment.) Before the Bush era, most American Muslims and Arab Americans were staunch Republicans, supporting free markets and opposing LGBT rights, including LGBT-inclusive curricula in schools: https://newrepublic.com/article/168180/growing-religious-alliance-ban-lgbtq-books

To any liberals reading this in shock, here’s a post detailing how Palestinian American Imam Omar Suleiman is homophobic: https://www.instagram.com/reel/C1f7Do7gZei/

Many US and Canadian Muslim leaders can be found alongside conservative Christians protesting against LGBT education in schools, drag queen storytimes, and trans healthcare. Most recently, many Muslim leaders signed a homophobic/transphobic statement “Islam and the LGBT Question: Reframing the Narrative” earlier in 2023: https://www.instagram.com/p/Cs9lFR0AcG_/?igsh=bnJubGVodDAxczJz

This is similar to the Nashville Statement against homosexuality from many Christian leaders, or the Torah Declaration on Homosexuality in favor of conversion therapy from Jewish leaders. Muslims are not uniquely homophobic, but it’s important that progressives are aware of anti-LGBT prejudice in Jewish and Muslim communities in order to be good allies to queer Jews and Muslims. Omar Suleiman and the NK are not uniquely homophobic–they are emblematic of institutional prejudice within their respective religious communities. Homophobia/transphobia are not an excuse for genocide.

TL;DR for this section: Supporting Palestine does not make someone socially progressive.

Why aren't there more liberal Jewish anti Zionist rabbis speaking at pro Palestine rallies? Why give the microphone to the NK?

Many rallies do have anti Zionist progressive Jews speak. But they are usually lay people who do not represent Jewish religious groups. They may be independent, or from JVP or other similar groups (IJV Canada, etc), which will show up to pro Palestine actions even if they don't have a speaking slot. More notes on JVP here: https://bringmemyrocks.tumblr.com/post/736264435582238720/i-will-gladly-say-free-palestine-from-the-river-to

It's basically impossible to become a progressive Jewish rabbi as an anti-Zionist. All non-orthodox rabbinical schools that follow the traditional ordination process (5 years of education culminating with ordination, rather than an in-service further education program for those already serving as rabbis) require the candidate to be at least politically pro-Israel if not religious Zionist. All such programs require students to spend a year studying in Israel (generally in Jerusalem, although plenty of Orthodox institutions include a year of study in illegal settlements like Gush Etzion, Bat Ayin, etc.) If an anti-Zionist wants to become a rabbi outside of the NK or other ultra-orthodox institutions, they need to be willing to spend that year in Israel and hold their tongue re: Zionism until they are ordained. That's why so many liberal anti-Zionist rabbis have stories of leaving Zionism–they couldn't have been ordained if they'd left Zionism beforehand.

There are several synagogues in the USA that are friendly to anti-Zionist progressive Jews. However, these synagogues are not usually openly anti Zionist (with a few exceptions) and thus can/do still rely on mainstream Jewish sources of funding, whether individuals or their local JCRC (Jewish Community Relations Council). Synagogue councils can also threaten rabbis who speak out and can easily get them fired. Synagogue boards/councils/membership have the authority to fire the rabbi–the rabbi does not own the synagogue. I know several anti Zionist Jewish rabbis with largely anti-Zionist congregations who would still lose everything if they spoke at a pro Palestine rally. Rabbis in this position tend to speak at candlelight vigils rather than at rallies where people are chanting “intifada” (although their congregants often do!) A lot of it comes down to keeping the community in existence *or* letting the world know how anti Zionist they are.

Tzedek Chicago is the exception because of the amount of money they were able to raise–they still don't have their own building, and need to pay for spaces they use. Outside of a tiny pop-up minyan that can fit in someone’s house, saying of a community “this community should be willing to lose everything” isn't reasonable–they would have to shutter completely if they were 100% anti Zionist, not to mention the attacks the rabbis and congregants would get--Tzedek Chicago keeps its online services very secure to keep congregants safe.

Notes on Jewish eschatology and bad faith arguments:

With the exception of religious zionism (see people trying to build the third temple right now), Judaism as a religion is not overly concerned with eschatology (the end of the world). Jews may pray for the coming of the Messiah, but the religion itself is not overly concerned with the Messiah and the end times.

The Neturei Karta, as with many orthodox groups that don’t adhere to religious zionism, believe that when the Messiah comes, he will rebuild the Temple in Jerusalem. Some believe this to be on the same site as Al-Aqsa; some do not. The Neturei Karta believe that the land of Israel (biblically, eretz yisroel) will at some point become governed by Judaism with a third temple built, although they emphasize that Palestinians will stay in the land and everyone will live together peacefully. Again, this is eschatology. It’s not unusual for it to be vague, especially in the Jewish tradition, and nobody is preparing for it immediately.

I was actually inspired to make this post because someone posted this Vashti Magazine article "Neturei Karta are not your Allies" as a gotcha, even though the interview itself clearly shows that the Neturei Karta support Palestine even into their end-times prophecies…I’m not surprised most of the interview wasn’t published. If you look at what the rabbi said versus what the writer claims he said, it’s not even a bad interview. The writer herself notes that these prophecies are vague--I’ll give her the benefit of the doubt that she doesn’t know that much about religious Judaism. A lot of secular Jews are unfamiliar with those who believe in the Torah’s divine origins. This includes activists who support Palestine.

I regard this as a bad faith accusation because this has no bearing on current events. It is no different from Christians or Muslims who believe someday the entire world will be Christian/Muslim. I’m usually the last person to cry Christian-normativity, but plenty of religious people have end-times beliefs that have very little impact on their theology or their politics. This is not analogous to John Hagee the Christian Zionist with his end-times beliefs.

The Palestinian activists and allies I’ve spoken to about this agree with this. One was asked during a Q and A that I attended “what do you think about the Neturei Karta’s belief that in the end times the third temple will be rebuilt?” He responded “we’ll deal with that when the Jewish Messiah comes.” Because it’s an end-times prophecy that they believe they have no control over, not a political position that impacts their allyship. And anyone who isn’t a religious Jew doesn’t believe it will ever happen anyway.

It also bears mentioning that most people who bring up this particular point are themselves liberal Zionists trying to paint anti-Zionist orthodox Jews as actually worse allies to Palestinians than liberal Zionists because of vague beliefs they hold that will never crystalize (unless you are an orthodox Jew yourself). Vashti Magazine’s use of the phrase “Israel-Palestine” leads me to believe this is their motive as well. Thus my accusation of bad faith, particularly when the NK has shown up for Palestine protests for decades.

Accusations of Holocaust denial

The Neturei Karta has met with some less than Jew-friendly individuals throughout their history in the hopes that this will help curb worldwide antisemitism. This gets thrown around a lot by liberal zionists intent on making themselves look better. In 2006, some members of the Neturei Karta met with Iranian president Ahmedenijad. This meeting is often used to accuse them of Holocaust denial, even though the rabbi in question, Dovid Weiss, specifically named the Holocaust re: reasons he doesn’t support Israel.

"The Zionists use the Holocaust issue to their benefit. We, Jews who perished in the Holocaust, do not use it to advance our interests. We stress that there are hundreds of thousands Jews around the world who identify with our opposition to the Zionist ideology and who feel that Zionism is not Jewish, but a political agenda."

The same is true for their attendance at the International Conference to Review the Global Vision of the Holocaust; they strongly believe the Holocaust happened and made sure all attendees were aware. There were Holocaust deniers in attendance, but this conference was not a “Holocaust denial conference” although I’m not going to defend it. One could argue that these particular Neturei Karta members should not have attended such a conference, but they never engaged in Holocaust denial and actively fought against it. Source: https://web.archive.org/web/20070328235234/https://www.nkusa.org/activities/speeches/2006iran-weissspeech.cfm

If you’ve ever heard the Neturei Karta speak, you’d know they don’t deny the Holocaust. They bring it up constantly.

If you don’t like all of the Neturei Karta’s positions, that’s fine. This post is not supposed to make you like them, but rather to explain and contextualize things you may have heard about them.

#neturei karta #anti zionism #judaism #antizionism #nk #history #long post #i

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decolonize-the-left · 4 months

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Misinformation?

On my internet?

Take this and come with me.

Now gather 'round the Preamble

Alright some critical thinking questions:

By saying Arab Palestinians belong in Palestine, does that mean they are suggesting only Arab Palestinians belong there? If yes why did they still choose to recognize others as Palestinian? Who would that include? How do these questions apply to the next point made about Islam in Palestine?

When the charter says "Palestine is the cause of a people who have been let down by a world that fails to secure them their rights [...]." Does this exclude Jewish experiences?

Did any drafts of the The Balfour Declaration, which declared a land for Jewish ppl, include Palestinian voices?

Is Zionism representative of all Jewish people?

Since Zionism and Judaism are not the same; How is the state of Israel silencing Orthodox Jewish ppl by enforcing a state which opposes their beliefs? Is this antisemitic?

What does "Palestinians of all affiliations" mean within the context of "fully sovereign"? How does liberation apply to all of the above?

By saying "Palestine is the spirit of the Ummah" are they suggesting it is relevant only to Muslim people? Why or why not?

Did anywhere in this Preamble state the express desire to remove, punish, or kill Jewish people?

The charter is only 11 pages btw.

Im gonna go over all of them on my blog to debunk Zionists spreading misinformation.

The next section is simply titled 'The Movement' btw. I'll make a post about it later or tomorrow maybe depending on the feedback I get after this post lol

I did it

#that's not what the charter says #<----- my blog tag for this little miniseries #2017 charter #free Palestine #free gaza #from the river to the sea palestine will be free #correcting misinfo #did you know #whiteness #white Supremacy #go to the source not to the propaganda #palestine #Gaza #hamas #israel

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autistic-ben-tennyson · 3 months

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Is anyone here a former Zionist?

I was a Zionist for a while due to being ignorant. I was raised in an environment that preached “Israel is God’s chosen people”. Sometimes I questioned it as it didn’t seem fair that Palestinians had to suffer in the name of Jesus but people saw any criticism as antisemitism. Even as I drifted leftward, I still held onto Zionism. I had a phase where I felt I had to convert to Judaism because of what many Zionist bloggers preach about atheists which is just a progressive sounding version of Christian beliefs that atheists have no morals and live sad empty lives. Zionists would call any protest antisemitic or claim Israelis were the true indigenous people and that Zionism was a social justice movement. I fell for some of the BS “Israel is the only pro LGBT democracy in the Middle East” but now I know how they really treat trans/queer people and the foothold the fundamentalist orthodox have in the government. Last year I joined a pro Palestine club at my school but we mostly did fundraising events. When I first got on this Hellsite, I followed some Zionist bloggers, but started to question why I did that. Now I am working to unlearn a lot of the BS I was fed. I still have a lot to learn, but I’m disgusted with Zionism and support Palestine and its people.

#ex christian #free palestine #lgbtq+#anti zionism #anti zionism ≠ antisemitism #exvangelical

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urbanprole · 1 year

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If communism happens, do you think after five dozen generations cultural and religious beliefs will just be magically unaffected and perfectly preserved as if frozen in time? 1000 years of utopia and noone's children's children's children's children will have changed their minds, hell not even changed their minds, just not adopted some beliefs to change their mind about? Do you just not think that base and superstructure interact at all?

If the Torah is to be believed, Judaism has existed for about 6,000 years. (This is 5783 by the Jewish calendar.) In those 6,000 years we went from having a temple to not having a temple to having a temple again to not having a temple again to the advent of rabbinic Judaism, and onward to present day where we have everything from Woo Reconstructionists to staunchly orthodox Haredi with every possible stop in between.

Your question betrays a deep ignorance of the topic at hand, if I'm being honest with you.

Jews have changed what it is to be Jewish as the need has arisen over the millennia. I have every confidence we will continue to do so for another 6,000 years, should humanity itself persist as long.

I'm straining to find what your ask has to do with anything I have said.

Judaism is a living culture passed from generation to generation in an unbroken chain. That fact won't change in the future, no, even as the culture itself transforms with the times. Not without outside intervention, anyway. I have 5,783 years of evidence backing me up on this.

Utopian leftists have fuck all in counterpoint but vibes.

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piratecaptainscaptainpirates · 7 months

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So you want to write about a Jewish Ed Teach - a quick guide to writing a Jewish man of color, by a Jewish moc

Given Taika Waititi is Jewish, I am always so happy when I see fanfic authors writing about Ed being Jewish! We need more Jewish poc rep and I'm always happy to see it. That being said, I've also seen a lot of misunderstandings, so I wanted to to write up a few quick guidelines.

Disclaimer: I'm just one Jew with an opinion, and this is based on my own experiences! I'd love if other Jews, especially other Jews of color, in the fandom would like to chime in with their thoughts as well!

It is possible to be a Jewish athiest! Judaism is membership in a people, and belief in g-d is not required (and, in my community, it's even considered a very personal question!). Some of the most observant Jews I know are athiests; belief in g-d and level of Jewish observance are not directly correlated. Cannot overstate how common it is for Jews to not believe in g-d or go back and forth on the question.

On that note, there are different levels of Jewish observance. Every individual is different, but in general there's Orthodox (very strict), and then, way on the other side, there's Reform and Conservative (Conservative does not equal politically Conservative). Conservative and Reform are very similar, except the Conservative movement tends to be more observant of traditional Jewish law and uses a lot more Hebrew. If you live in an area without a lot of Jews (like where I live!), it's very common for Reform and Conservative movements to have a lot of overlap and collaborate on a lot of stuff together.

Not every Jew keeps Kosher, or keeps Kosher to the same level of strictness.

Synagogue services are not like Christian services, especially outside of holiday services. Ordinary Saturday morning services are often more like a group conversation as we try to work new meaning out of the Torah. The B'Nei Mitzvah, the big ceremony that marks a kid being old enough to participate fully in Jewish life, is more like "baby's first thesis defense" than anything else! There have literally been pauses in services I've attended before as someone ran to the temple library to check their sources.

Not all Jews speak Hebrew. Some Jews might not know any, some might be able to stumble through the more important prayers, some might be able to sight-read okay, some might only know religious words but not modern words, some might be fluent! Just about any level of proficiency is believable.

Ed's got a lot of tattoos! Tattoos are a big traditional Jewish no-no, but (again!) different movements and different Jews have their own opinions. I know a Conservative tattoo artist! It's not something that other Jews would comment on (unless they're just assholes) and it wouldn't make anyone kick him out of synagogue services (no joke, I read that in a fic once).

Hannukah is not the only (or even the most important) Jewish holiday; it's just the one most non-Jews know about. The two biggest holidays are Rosh HaShanah and Yom Kippur. I think Ed's favorite holidays would be Purim (you get to wear costumes and put on plays!) and Passover (retelling of a story along with a big meal!).

Depending on the area and the Jewish demographic, Jews of color can sometimes feel uncomfortable in our own community, especially when other Jews automatically assume we must be converts. While this is a real issue, it is not something I want to read authors who aren't themselves Jews of color write about because it is a deeply inter-Jewish issue.

Depending on the community you grow up in, religious trauma isn't as common with queer Jews as it is with queer Christians. The Reform movement has been advocating for queer Jews since the 1960s (you read that right, yes). I'm not saying there are no queer Jews who have religious trauma, I'm just saing it's a lot less common, and I have always felt immediately accepted as queer in Jewish spaces.

The inverse is not true. Queer spaces are not always accepting of Jews (or of people of color, a double whammy!).

A few stereotypes to avoid: Jews are often stereotyped as being greedy and corrupt. Jewish kids are bullied by Christian kids because "we killed Jesus," when I was ten I had another kid ask to "see my horns." Always avoid comparing Ed directly to animals, especially rodents.

If you're a non-Jew looking to write about a Jewish Ed, I recommend doing some research. MyJewishLearning is a great website that's very accessible.

Every Jew interacts with our Judaism differently, so if you're writing a Jewish Ed, please take a moment to think about what it means for him! Membership in a community? Calming traditions that remind him of home, family, and community? A point of pride - we're a resilient lot! Even just a note in his background that he's not as connected to as he might like to be?

#ofmd #our flag means death #ofmd ed teach

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rklover13 · 4 months

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Helluva Boss and Hazbin Hotel are inconsistent in their origins, not just the world building

I want to post something I've been thinking about for a while, and I haven't seen it mentioned too much in the critical community.

The world of HB/HH is a mess, and I don't mean the worldbuilding of the shows.

Disclaimer/Info: I grew up in the Protestant church, specifically: Methodist, Southern Baptist, and Charismatic. I am very familiar with Protestant Christianity in the US, including the Evangelical church thanks to a family member. I am no longer religious, but not quite atheist, and I wanted to shout into the void.I will say that I do not particularly care about the inaccuracies. I grew up with so much media misconstruing mainstream beliefs, and now, I just don't care about what Vivziepop does in regards to whether something is accurate or not. This is more of a ramble about why the elements are clashing. Helluva Boss and Hazbin Hotel pull from a long list of sources when it comes to world building and they all contribute to criticisms of the execution.

TLDR : Vivziepop pulls from varied, disparate sources, and does not integrate them in a logical way, making the world of Helluva Boss/Hazbin Hotel an even larger mess.

The main inspirations:

Dante's Inferno: This one is pretty obvious. The idea of rings of Hell come from Dante's Inferno specifically. Except, she isn't depicting the rings Dante described: Limbo, Lust, Gluttony, Greed, Wrath, Heresy, Violence, Fraud, and Treachery. (Source https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inferno_(Dante))

Seven Deadly Sins: The concept of the deadly sins originated in the fourth century, and was revised in the sixth. (Source: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seven_deadly_sins)

Hell: This one is obvious. Vivziepop is depicting Christian Hell as a place where sinners are tormented for all eternity. Hell does not exist in the canon Bible, and not in the way churches preach about it. (Source: https://www.paulmclellan.com/blog/2019/4/9/hell-as-a-lake-of-fire-for-eternal-punishment-does-not-exist-in-the-bible). Lots of misconstrued verses lead to this idea, and I suggest looking more into it. Okay, so Christian Hell, as taught by churches in let's say in mainstream Western Christianity (US caveat aside). That's perfectly fine!

But then we get Alastor. Before I say anything else, I am white, and I fully acknowledge, appreciate, and defer to the criticisms of depicting a long-demonized religion.

Vivziepop declared Alastor mixed after she was criticized for using Vodou symbols in the pilot when it first aired. The problem with this? It's not canon. If it isn't depicted within the work, it shouldn't be considered gospel. It's like JK Rowling declaring Dumbledore gay. It does not matter if it isn't depicted. Either way, we have a sinner associated with another religion in Hell... which means, to be consistent in this world, there would be sinners of EVERY SINGLE OTHER RELIGION. Because that is the Hell that churches teach! Anyone who does not believe in Christianity is sentenced to eternal suffering. So there should be a helluva (couldn't resist) lot of sinners that follow Hinduism, Islam, Judaism (yep, God's chosen people, but they would be sent to Hell in mainstream Christian doctrine), etc. But, Viv wouldn't dare to depict that (I am not saying she should). If one religion is depicted in Hell, then ALL religions must be depicted in Hell. Onto the next big thing:

Demon Origins: So, we have mainstream depictions of Hell, and also Dante's inferno, and now we are adding in...

Demons from the Lesser Key of Solomon including Paimon and Stolas (Sources: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Johann_Weyer; https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_demons_in_the_Ars_Goetia).

Asmodeus from the Book of Tobit. This book is canon in the Eastern Orthodox, but not in the Jewish Orthodox, or the Protestant.. conglomeration (Source: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Book_of_Tobit).

The Seven Deadly Princes from Peter Binsfield (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Classification_of_demons#Binsfeld's_classification_of_demons)

And then a few canon (as in Biblical canon), demons like Leviathan, Satan and Lucifer.

It's an interesting pull, a lot of demonology books popped up in the 16th century. But, it makes it cluttered. The Lesser Key of Solomon has 72 demons alone! It's plenty good for an afterlife depiction. So Vivziepop has mixed in many sources to depict many demons that don't actually go with the demons in Inferno (for further reading: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Malebranche_(Divine_Comedy)). Instead, she mixes the Seven Princes, with the Seven Deadly Sins, and makes those the rings. And finally:

LILITH

Lilith is a fascinating figure that I really only learned more about recently. Lilith is not canonical in any orthodoxy that I am aware of. She appeared in the Alphabet of Sirach, a work from around 700-1000 CE. I haven't been able to find sources on if she was a part of Jewish culture prior to that time, but I will admit I'm not going SUPER in depth, and here is some further reading: https://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/alphabet-of-ben-sira https://www.learnreligions.com/legend-of-lilith-origins-2076660

Lilith is not in Biblical canon, or in the books I previously mentioned. She was mentioned in a few works in the 1800s, as well as in one of Aleister Crowley's books. A quick overview of her figure is that she is thought to be Adam's first wife, who refused to be submissive (and in some teachings, refused to have sex in the Missionary position), and left the Garden of Eden. Some teachings say that she became the mother of demons. Personal gripe, Lilith could have been incorporated more into Hazbin Hotel because like, give me a dominant woman, who is also a mother, and can fuck up all the demons. So to tally, we have: Rings of Hell, but not Dante's. Seven deadly princes from one author in the 16th century, tied to the seven deadly sins from the fifth. Ars Goetia, from another author in the 16th century. Lucifer AND Satan (traditionally, these are considered the same beings, which would make sense for the Hell she is depicting) Traditional church teachings of sinners being tormented for all eternity Demons from the Bible, but also Lilith, who is not a canon part of any of the Abrahamic religions (as best as I can tell). I could also go into how there are only cherubs (weak little guys in the show), and angels. When she could go hard with depicting the hierarchy of angels, after all, she's doing complex nonsense with the demons. (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hierarchy_of_angels) All of this leads to a very confused and messy world. Sure, something like this could work! But it definitely doesn't in Vivziepop's world. End of ramble, and for the amazing creative people that are doing rewrites, maybe some things mentioned here can help!

#helluva boss critical #hazbin hotel critical #helluvaboss critism #hazbin hotel criticism #vivziepop critical #vivziepop criticism #long post #tw: religion

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frownyalfred · 9 months

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if you feel like it (and if this question even ends up making sense lol), would you mind talking about how you feel about bruce being jewish? not like the idea of jewish bruce wayne, i mean the fact that in 2011 or so he was retconned kind of accidentally into being jewish. i ask bc i, as a jewish person, have a lot of mixed to negative feelings about the whole thing, and you seem not to. i really hope this doesn't come out as like judgy. i don't think you should feel negatively about it. i'm genuinely just interested in your thoughts and feelings about this. two jews, three opinions, lol

It's not judgy! As you said, two Jews, three opinions -- there's no right answer here.

As I mentioned in my Jewish Bruce post, the likely accidental ret-con of Bruce to likely being Jewish is a tricky subject. It's simultaneously a good moment for Jews who want to feel represented, and a bad one for those who think Bruce's story is not an adequate or appropriate vehicle to convey Judaism.

The reality is, Bruce isn't visibly Jewish now, nor is he practicing or displaying overt cultural, ethnic, or religious influences. He's Jewish by halacha, which is its own mess of significance for Jews.

Personally, I feel that Bruce's emergence as a Jew by halacha, and not by practiced religion or culture, is an important discussion to be had in our modern, interfaith, assimilating culture.

Barring the Orthodox communities, the number of young observant Jews is dropping. Jews are increasingly marrying into other faiths, assimilating, and raising their children outside of the faith. When Jews do stay in their communities, they tend to stay in more "liberal" ones such as Reconstructionist or Reform congregations. You can read more about this at the Pew site.

There are, and will continue to be, many people who find themselves cut off from Judaism and either halachically or ethnically Jewish in the next few years, with little to no connection to the religion, ethnicity, or cultural traditions.

So in this respect, Bruce being cut off from Judaism by nature of his family structure and abridged childhood is good to see, because it's representative of a new generation of Jewish children or interfaith families. Or it will be?

But. There are many Jews who do not identify with this at all -- who grew up in the community with strong ethnic, religious, and cultural ties, who see Bruce's (accidental?) ret-con to Judaism as rushed, dissatisfying, half-hearted, a million other words.

I don't want to assume what you or other Jews are thinking about this, but I can guess. It's not fun to see your religious identity thrown around somewhat flimsily, especially when there remains such a deep and consistent Jewish influence throughout the DC comics.

Why Bruce? Why not Hal? Why hint at it, or make him somewhat Jewish? Why not have a fully-Jewish character? Why not have a character who embraces Judaism as a belief system?

I think the mixed feelings over Bruce's ret-con highlight the growing divide within the Jewish community over who is, and isn't Jewish, and by which standards we judge those who are peripheral to the community.

Having worked with many converts and patrilineal Jews, I have deep sympathy for those cut off from the Jewish community, especially when it is by halachic rule. How can someone who was raised by a Jewish father, who is 50% Ashkenazi, who had a Bar Mitzvah and attends shul regularly, not be as Jewish as someone who was born to a Jewish mother and rarely, if ever, practiced the religion?

We make conversion to Judaism a tricky, difficult, and conditional process. Reform marriages and conversions are questioned by Orthodox rabbis and not considered valid by others. Some people are Jewish in one synagogue and not Jewish enough in another. It's so hard.

So yeah, in my other post linked above I think I called this a happy accident, which is how I'm trying to view it. It makes me happy to have a character to push Jewish headcanons and fic ideas into to, and to tease out the themes of community and what it means to truly be Jewish from Bruce's story. But I don't expect that to be everyone's else's experience at all.

I'd be curious to hear your, and anyone else's, thoughts on this. Again, two Jews, three opinions -- nobody is right here, and we all change our minds a LOT.

#asks #jewish bruce wayne #jewish batman #jewish batfamily #dc #dc comics #bruce wayne #batman

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hindahoney · 1 year

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To the Reform Jewish community:

I think I have some misconceptions about the reform community. I think I'm wrong about how I perceive reform Jews and their level of observance, and I want to be educated.

The things I'm going to say are going to be pretty harsh, but I promise I say them so you can understand where I'm coming from, my experience with the Reform movement, and that I want to learn because I see some problems with my thinking. My background and experiences are primarily with the conservative movement, modern orthodox, and Chabad. It's no secret that within these communities, reform Jews get a pretty bad reputation (I want to stress: Not everyone in these movements says/believes these things, but it's common to hear) To the more right-wing side of Judaism, reform Jews are seen as assimilated Jews, "Jewish only in the name" I've heard. I'm told about how reform Jews widely don't keep kosher, often don't have mezuzot, don't pray, don't lay tefillin, don't keep shabbat except making a dinner every now and then. I'm told, and given the impression, that reform Jews have a loose relationship with their Judaism and misunderstand our core texts which leads to misunderstandings and demonization of Jews who do (ie "Orthodox Women are oppressed").

I don't have very much experience with Reform Judaism (which is likely where my ignorance comes from), and I understand that there are Reform Jews who may keep kosher, or may keep Shabbat, but I think my misunderstanding of what makes someone reform is their level of observance. To me, if I encountered a Jew who grew up Orthodox but now no longer kept kosher, kept shabbat, threw out the tzitzit and doesn't lay teffilin, I'd say he's no longer orthodox and he's reform.

Is this where my misunderstanding is coming from? Is it the shul you go to? I just can't imagine seeing a man with tzitzit in a Reform shul. Are you taught that there are observances you no longer need to keep?

I have a pretty decent-sized Reform following, so I've heard from you about how it's offensive and painful when people assume a lack of observance, and that that's not what it means to be reform. I want to be educated, and I want to listen. At the same time, I can't ignore the instances I was in a reform-dominated space and they told me themselves "Oh yeah reform Jews don't keep kosher, it's not important," or about how they work on Shabbat, and then I notice they don't know Hamotzi or the Birkat.

I see the divide between movements and it feels like we can't reach across the aisle to understand each other. Ring-wing Jews are mad at left-wing Jews for not maintaining important traditions, but mainly they are mad at reform rabbis because they see the loss of tradition as the fault of the community leader, that the community would choose to uphold more traditions if they were educated on it, which is the responsibility of the rabbi. Reform jews are mad at right-wing Jews because, let's be honest, right-wing Jews are constantly talking trash and have a belief that they are "better" Jews for being more observant. But I think reform Jews don't really understand some practices, or they aren't taught about them right, because a large portion of dialogue I've had with reform Jews has been me having to field accusations and speak for the movement about how right-wing Jews aren't all sexist, homophobic, transphobic, etc. and neither are the practices. So I think this also plays a large part in why Reform Jews have a problem with Jews from other movements, because they believe we're closed-minded.

I think these hard conversations need to be had so that we can come away understanding each other. I want Judaism to move past the need for movements, which I think we are, because part of me believes they do more harm than good and people never feel like they quite "fit" certain movements. I just hope that these conversations can be had in good faith.

#jumblr #frumblr #judaism #jewblr #reform judaism #reform jews #j tag #jew tag #jewish discourse #jewish culture #goyim dont touch

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