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corvidshipping · 3 years

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modern au red/milo dump while i try to get myself together to answer asks nd work on ATJ:

(tw for alcohol mentions near the end, also this is an EXTREMELY long post, its so long that even after i split it into categorized sections each section could be its own post)

CLOTHING

milo absolutely has no sense of fashion. i feel like this is basically canon - for the styles at the time, he dresses fairly basic, mostly focused on looking put together for his job (definitely dresses aimed more towards how he would like to be treated by his peers, despite his actual position - then again our best example outside of the expedition is when he's about to deliver what he considers the most important presentation of his life, so who knows, maybe he usually dresses like a slob). aside from that his main concern seems like practicality and comfort. his wardrobe is dominated by earth tones - beiges and greens set with white and greys. all of that taken into account, i can see him dressing like this in a more modern era:

basically- a lot of cardigans, usually collared shirts or comfortable turtlenecks (since he does still occupy a research position at the smithsonian, even if only in title), big ol' coats, khakis and chinos and slightly stiff dress pants complete with ironed creases. i can see him wearing similar clothes outside work, just more comfortable - jeans and knitted shirts, henleys, more turtlenecks, and comfy cardigans over short sleeved shirts. i dont really see him wearing a lot of prints, i think he'd veer more towards solid clothes in lighter colors, but maybe he has a few. hes definitely the kind of guy to think of wearing the single graphic tee he owns as "bold and wild".

im very married to the idea of him wearing converse though. i cant explain it. milo in converse keeps me going in this world

hes kind of broke so i think maybe he got the converse secondhand maybe? or a gift of some kind. aside from the converse i can see him wearing a lot of oxfords and maybe wingtips

i want to see him in a hawaiian shirt so bad. i am losing it at this thought. he buttons it all the way up to his neck like someones awkward dad. milo wears a hawaiian shirt to "let loose". he wears it with like, khakis. or knee length jorts AHHHHDJHDSGJHDSJGh

a tie??? does he wear his hawaiian shirt with a tie???? does he think it makes it look cooler?????????? i am sobbing

red is the COMPLETE opposite. in the canon 1914 setting, red is already very rebellious for an AFAB person of their era- theyre openly a suffragette, they frequently refuse to wear skirts even in public and dress in mens clothes even before they were openly nonbinary, despite not being accepted into the male-dominated research fields and colleges they continue to educate themself with or without help, they purposely aim for an "unfeminine" silhouette when they dress, refuse to wear corsets, etc. (spoiler alert- there's a clear reason they get on so well with audrey in ATJ)

theyre also easily mistaken by people that didnt know them prior to their transition for being just a very small/young cis man- even though they canonically have a very soft "traditionally feminine" face

so basically, in any era theyre set into, red is always gonna aim to be ahead of the curve- both in their personal beliefs and practices and in their fashion. theyre also very androgynous in their clothes, although they tend to aim a bit more masculine (thats partially due to the era though, and having been forced into skirts exclusively for their entire life- i think in a modern setting where its more acceptable for AFABs to dress and act in a less hyperfeminine way, theyd be more okay with a fluidity in their gender presentation).

all that taken into account, i can see them dressing like this:

lots of baggy clothes, especially baggy jackets and shirts. they like loose fitting high waisted pants like JNCO jeans, cargo pants, etc but they arent averse to pencil legs. they rarely ever wear skinny jeans or drainpipes though. messy hair is a lifestyle for them- their haircut is definitely home-done

you know how in BICSTLY they used to have really long hair before they cut it? in a modern au i can see them impulsively doing the cut at like 3am and waking milo up at his door cause they screwed it up and he ends up having to help fix it (even though hes literally no better at cutting hair than them. worse even)

definitely have an undercut bob- bob on top, shaven on the bottom layer. they might end up growing their hair into a mullet at some point if they get bored. probably dyes their hair all the time out of boredom and then regrets it later and has to use dye remover.

lots of ripped tights and fishnets, leggings with big loose crop tops, big hoodies, safety pin jewelry and homemade jewelry. maybe some sticknpokes.

all that said, they still know how to dress in a professional situation. since its a modern au theres really nothing holding them back from the education and career they canonically want but cant get in the 1910s, so i imagine they would work at the smithsonian as well, maybe their father helped them get the job? potentially in that case they might be his assistant- after all, he trusts their opinion on artifacts more than anyone else's.

at work you can still very much see the punk/skater/grunge/goth style but its more understated- turtlenecks, high waisted and looser dress pants, lots of black, slightly unbuttoned collared shirts with a loose overcoat and no tie

since i elaborated on milos shoe taste i may as well elaborate on red's: they definitely wear converse as well, probably newer than milo's since their father is fairly wealthy and they can afford it. they also have a doc martens collection. they have a pair of demonias but they never wear them and milo is really the only person to even know they own them, let alone see them in them. they really dont like to wear heels much, but they own a few just to play around with. they have a bad habit of wearing any laced shoes untied, but they never trip over the laces. they also use lace code- their most-worn Docs have purple laces on the right foot and yellow on the left. some of their Docs have (reclaimed) pink laces.

has an extensive pin collection including feminism pins, anti-racism pins, punk-related pins, skater-related pins, and pop culture pins (80s music, modern music, old movies, etc)

MUSIC TASTE

milo's into a lot of older music- stuff from the 50s is his favorite. really into jazz and ballroom style stuff. his favorite band is queen, i think- he likes the old-fashioned sound, the jazz-chamber-ballroom influences, the diversity of their lyrics, and the complexity between the guitar riffs, the basslines, and freddie's vocal runs as well as the vocal harmonies.

sometimes he hums good old fashioned lover boy to red and they two-step in the living room in their pajamas :pleading:

also very into rush. yes, he is a rush guy :pensive:.

also listens to a surprising amount of lo-fi? he really likes stuff that remixes older music with hip hop and lofi elements, like earl grey. nearly exclusively into instrumental stuff but also very into louie zong. he listens to it while he works a lot.

knows a lotttt of foreign artists, especially niche ones. fuckin LOVES casiopea

red's spotify is a goddamn mess. everything from 2000s emo, to classic 70s punk, to post-punk and new wave, to 90s pop, to rap. they cant be easily classified at all

their favorite bands are oingo boingo, prince, queen (they listen to a lot of their harder-rock music, but milo knows theyre into the ballads too. theyll never tell anyone else though), doja cat, lil nas, fall out boy, and billie eilish.

red recites the intro monologue to lets go crazy very seriously to make milo laugh, sometimes. they get very into it with their facial expressions. sometimes it devolves into a full air guitar/keyboard/drum and wild dancing session. milo does not know how to participate in this but he loves watching them have fun with it. sometimes they pull him off the couch to make him dance with them, though

they are a huge sucker for dark pop, vaporwave, retrowave, EDM, hip hop, emo, punk... etc etc. anything that combines any two or more of those genres in an original or interesting way gets their attention right away

there's a lot of sharing between the two of them- even though their music tastes are so different, they like a lot of the others taste, and theyre always up to listen to whatever their partner is playing.

red is a huge softie, and milo has found them more than once listening to or humming something he was playing for them the other day because it reminded them of him

speaking of which- in the 1914 canon, red can play piano. i think that carries over to a modern au, where they could play piano and by extension keyboard. i like to think they experiment with a lot of instruments but i doubt they ever really mastered any others. maybe theyre okay at drums or bass?

they learned to play and sing teo torriatte for milo, as a surprise. when they first performed it for them, they had everything set up for when he got home from work- the lights were dimmed, they had candles lit around the keyboard, they draped stuff in cloth to make it look pretty, they scattered flower petals around. when milo walked in and saw it all, he almost proposed then and there- the only thing that stopped him was that he would kick himself for the rest of his life if he did that without a ring.

HOBBIES/ACTIVITIES

milo is still an avid chess player in this, but i like to think hes in some kind of groupchat or text or discord server for it. he doesnt necessarily consider any of the others in the chat close friends, but he does know them all by name

he tries to get red into chess but they never really get it

he tells them all about the stuff that goes down in the games and they just. do not understand. but they love listening to him get excited about it anyway

"red you're not gonna BELIEVE this, eddie played an italian game on star today! i thought for sure she would see through it since everyone knows it but she slipped and he beat her in like, 13 moves! i wouldnt have believed it if i hadnt been there!"

"yes sweetie please tell me more" (barely disguised pained expression)

red is a skater and a regular at the skate park by the smithsonian

most regulars there know them by name, they can spot a newbie a mile away

they have a sticker of a broken tv with a skull inside of it on the underside of their board, its become recognized as a symbol of them unofficially

since theyre so regular and have been going there a lot longer than most of the other skaters that frequent the place, a lot of what they say is kind of just accepted as the rules

they have a bad habit of lecturing new kids who show up without knee/elbow pads or helmets at the very least. all the other skaters enforce it too. kids dont end up showing up without protective gear very often after their first visit

they brought a first aid kid and left it there and everyone has kept it stocked pretty well without them having to have much input. its kind of just a communal first aid kit

they once drew the broken tv symbol on the inside of a half-pipe and everyone started calling it red's ramp after that

they also started calling the bowl at the center of the park the Soup Bowl and now thats just accepted as the name. some of the newer kids genuinely thought that it was called that by the park and were shocked when they found out it was just a random nickname red gave it one day

theyve brought milo a few times but hes extremely awkward on his feet and could never really get his balance on a skateboard, and quite frankly red is afraid of what might happen if he tried even a low ramp, so he usually just sits at the rim of the bowl while red skates around

everyone knew he was their boyfriend before they even met him. a few of the regulars called him by name right away. one of them was certain red had brought him before.

but no

they just talk so fuckin much about him that its like they already know him

aside from skateboarding, red is pretty good on rollerskates/blades

they tried to take milo to a roller rink once but it was a disaster and they ended up going home, changing into pajamas, ordering chinese food, and marathoning movies till they fell asleep on the couch together. so not a total loss

theyre both very into movies. red is deep into horror and milo likes indie/art movies and just Cannot handle horror at all, but they both agree on old movies, from the 80s and 90s to like the 30s.

red has shown milo some of the classic horror movies and the niche old ones (from like the 40s) since theyre not difficult to stomach

every so often when red brings up wanting to see a horror movie milo is like "aw babe we can watch that tonight i promise it wont be bad" and he genuinely thinks he can handle it this time

he cant

he never can

it is always a lie

red ends up holding him every time and talking him to sleep, but it thankfully never causes like a major panic attack or anything like that

they love going to museums together, of all kinds. they love art museums. they also go to aquariums and aviaries

sometimes they like to go to other history museums and criticise the veracity or accuracy of exhibits/translations, all in good fun of course. theyre never actually being mean about it

SIDENOTES/UNCATEGORIZED

they both used to work at starbucks, when they were younger and before they worked at the smithsonian. they worked at separate stores 2 blocks from each other.

milo cant stand soda or carbonated drinks, red can and will chug a java monster in order to survive a long workday if they must. milo is constantly concerned for their health and wellbeing

they r both lightweights when it comes to drinking. they can split a six pack and both be falling-over drunk by the end of the night.

given the changes in beauty standards people DEFINITELY think milo is more attractive than they would in 1914. cmon. hes a lil twinky nerd. you think people wont eat that up?

he never really catches onto the flirting much though

did u think i would forget ki/da and the others? youd be wrong.

i simultaneously like the idea of something similar to the movie happening, but also just like... ki/da just being a regular person living on the surface. in either case they r all friends still

in the case of ki/da just being a regular person on the surface- i like the idea of atl/antis just being A Place in this au, maybe its a bit of a closed off country though? like, not many foreigners live there and to get there you basically need to be there as a diplomat or a scholar

maybe ki/da visits DC as a diplomat? she is a princess, after all

red meets audrey online cause they both yell at the same misogynistic asshole on twitter

they exchange discord names in the replies of the tweet and tell the guy not to interrupt them while theyre talking in his replies

i like to think red and milo are selected to go on an academic visit to atl/antis (to learn about the culture, with permission of the king), and audrey ends up as the mechanic on the ship during the visit and theyre like (spiderman pointing meme) at each other

red and audrey have so many inside jokes that they basically speak a different language. milo gets some of the terms from context and pop culture (they use "so very" in real life- as in "wow, that shirt is so very.") but he is hopeless to learn all of it

one of their inside jokes is any variation of "milo hot girl summer" and they REFUSE to explain it to him no matter how much he begs

milo wears that iconique tank top on the ship and they say it literally any time he bends over, picks anything up, reaches for anything, moves, BREATHES. he is bewildered and at this point concerned

(in truth, the joke came from red taking a really blurry picture of him in a short sleeve shirt where he looked pretty cute and captioned it "milo's having a hot girl summer rn" and they just could not stop repeating it once audrey met him IRL)

they have a minecraft world. i do like to believe that every so often vinny finds a way in- theyre never sure how- and griefs the shit out of them by blowing up EVERY. monument.

this post is getting long bc im enraptured by the idea of an atl/antis modern au so im cutting it off here but expect WAY MORE later

#paper_heart.txt #s: i didn't say it's the smart thing. but it is the right thing #alcohol ment tw

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buttercupbuck · 3 years

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bro that anon is whack im so sorry 😔 they clearly have internet brain rot and are acting like everything is black and white. like discussions of feminism/white feminism/misognynoir are EXTREMELY important and nuanced but its not as simple as “white women have never faced opression”. Of course white women CAN uphold white supremacy and thats something thats important to note. However women as a whole are still facing misogyny, and its important to note the way that impacts WOC, trans women, disabled women, etc all differently. Like when something traumatic happens to a black women, why the fuck would you start using that as a soap box for “see i told you, this other woman is less opressed!”. It’s insane to me. That’s not you supporting that black woman, that’s you using her personal trauma for your own gain.

yess all of this. like it’s just. so clear that their objective of bashing jlh overshadows any concern they might have for black women. like ?? why did you see that and immediately think of jlh, and why did you see that and then try to turn it into some gotcha moment. them trying to defend that they weren’t using her trauma for their own gain and insisting that they were educating me about racism is just a little bit laughable and incredibly transparent.

im also getting the vibe that they’re silent about this shit when they can’t find some way to twist it into an attack against the actress they love to hate for some reason 🙇🏻‍♀️

#ask #anon #fandom discourse #tw racism

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impactrueno · 4 years

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(1) saw the tags on your last post about being worried about the kids on here and yeah same. I spent my formative years on here and am now a young adult. I sometimes see posts like that one where people are just so misguided? On here people have black and white views as well as this weird fixation on being 100% unproblematic otherwise you are irredeemable. I've also seen really young people (13-16) latch onto

(2) really toxic ideologies such as terf/radical feminism or transmedicalism. It scares me to see really young people adopt extreme points of views and internalizing them. I mean I siad some problematic things when I was young and I'm happy that I wasn't part of this culture at that point. Instead I learned on my own why certain things are sensitive subjects... sorry for the rant lol.

nah thats okay i feel the same way. its definitely concerning, and hopefully theyll be like you and grow out of it once they learn on their own instead of parroting something some rando said on this hellsite. i said the thing about asking people who know about this stuff firsthand, but that can also lead to adopting toxic ideologies like...imagine not knowing anything about lgbt people and feminism and then you accidentally ask a terf for information lol. so doing research on your own is still vital! form your own opinions on different kinds of subjects and all that. learn to spot manipulative information and propaganda, etc

the internet is so so vast with so much information but also a LOT of misinformation. we cant take random bloggers’ word as gospel and then use that to judge whether or not someone is irredeemably problematic or not.

#Anonymous #asks

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russellius · 2 months

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Team Photoshoot BTS

Our first store outside the US was in Britain and we have a very strong customer base in the UK. But at the same time, it happens that George looks like he's out of a Hollywood movie. - Tommy Hilfiger

#george russell #f1 #f1edit #*m #*mine #24 #prs24 #(need him in a way thats concerning to feminism etc)#(idk how but i desperately want him in a classic 50s hollywood movie as the male lead i-)#(god if you are listening--)

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fakeboitherottengirl · 4 years

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I also really hate the fear-mongering idea that gender critical people are “killing trans people” (which, no, thats straight males, there is no case on record that I have been able to find of a woman killing a trans person in the name of radical feminism). I was a trans people for a long time. I know many trans people (which I know sounds like the “i have black friends” card but hear me out) and even in discussions of gender Ive never had a conversation turned into an altercation. People actually tend to be willing to talk and listen when you’re opening isn’t an attack and you are not dancing around needles to avoid being called a heretic.

I call the people in my life their preferred names and pronouns, I would slap the taste out of the mouth of anybody who would go out of their way to harass a person for their gender expression, but also I am concerned for children being put on hormone blockers and people being given E/T without being properly informed of the risks and the narrative pushed on kids especially that the only options are full medical transition or suicide. Im worried about kids too young to have sex making choices that will have consequences like impotence, lack of sensation, fertility, etc. Im worried about people who have mental illness in addition to being trans whose mental illness goes unaddressed because they are told all their problems go back to being trans. Im worried about women’s libraries being burned down and rape shelters having rats nailed to the door (why not build libraries collecting trans literature? Why not open a rape center where trans men can feel safe and more dignified in taking a rape kit or seeking refuge from an abuser?).

The agenda as it stands now is actually actively harming my trans friends and that is the main reason why I distanced myself from the community. There are majorly sexist overtones in the idea that one can “feel” like a woman or man but sadly we live in a culture with gender roles and being able to switch is, i guess, better than not being able to switch at all.

The ONLY time that I will not use preferred pronouns for a trans person is in cases of actual criminal behavior (no theft or drugs but a real crime like rape or murder) because it incorrectly skews statistics, and even then I try to use “they” or their last name like with Yaniv.

Gender critical people don’t hate trans people, we hate the gender binary. We can all take our unique hammers and smash the shit out of that thing until we are just people with vulva/penis who are allowed to express ourselves any way we want in any combination we want. That, imho, should be the ultimate common shared goal.

#radfem #radical feminism #gender critical #detransitioned

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anti-marxistcult · 5 years

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SJW’s “Diversity” dogma and Tokenism comments

same with me

YES!!! THANK YOU!!!

good point

same, entertainment is for escapism, not propaganda but this is what happens when ideologues control any business

Pretty much.

muthafucken TRUTH ^

they do because 1) it is their “selling-pitch” and to guilt/shame you into watching/liking it and 2) it is so if you dare criticize it they use the women/POC/GLBT card on you and call you names to smear you and deflect attention away from the criticism that it is a shitty poorly constructed film, game, series, comic, etc they use “diversity” to protect their mediocre propaganda from negative reaction, backlash, criticism

yup, that is why feminism is a sham, by looking at the people in the movement, their mentality and hatred of femininity and healthy women, it is no wonder feminists indulge in fandoms to bash classical feminine characters and project themselves into male characters by stripping them of their masculinity and making them go against their original identity by screwing other male straight characters. Feminism is for self loathing fugly women who are anti femininity and anti masculinity in their natural forms.

exactly, they know they have to get them while they are young, the younger he better because they are at their most vulnerable and impressionable. it is very much like a cult, they’d groom their children too.

True, it is feminism that makes women turn against themselves and each other. it conditions them to hate their femininity, hate being healthy and attractive. It is these land whale types that attack classic and traditional femininity and want to make women more butch and masculine because they think that since masculinity is men’s strength then women should emulate it, when in truth femininity is women’s strength, but feminism views femininity as a weakness, thus they emasculate men to weaken them in society’s eye and promote women to be masculine under the dumb belief it is supposed to give women some magical strength that men possess, lol or in other words: ‘cock envy’. This leads to both men and women being unhealthy, depressed, miserable, they develop self-image issues, and instead of taking responsibility for their lifestyle and their gullibility for buying into feminism and anti-gender norms dogma, they blame attractive people or the air brushed celebrities and models (friendly reminder sex sells for a reason, human beings generally prefer attractive healthy partners, people that a obese is a turn off - unless you have a fetish for it). another fact is women are prone to jealousy, envy, (I’m a woman, I know, and every other women with an honest bone in her body knows it is true too) again it leads back to human nature and our hard wired competitive streak. Majority of society’s problems, men and women, where personal issues and self-image and all that are concerned stem from the backwards ideology of feminism attacking our natural behavior because feminism and its flawed theories attack gender norms for its own interest, not for the majority of people’s interests. it causes more problems than it fixes, the only people that benefit are the ones that are devout followers of that dogma...except they aren’t really because they’re still jealous and resentful to those that are not conforming to their ideology. this is why they are now pushing it onto younger people more than before.

yup, sad but true, this is what happens when they are exposed to conditioning through media for decades and pass it down to the next gen and peer pressure them to hate the natural norms of women, her femininity and nature. feminism is communism in a skirt and marxism in drag. feminists are their own oppressors.

well that is one way of putting it. a channel I watched explained that too with a remarkable collection of articles, studies and polls and surveys and all that stuff and not to mention just observing that behavior by living and experiencing the real world, which these snowflakes dont do, they live on the internet in their safe bubble echo chambers believing the opposite about human nature and then get triggered and shocked and outraged when it doesnt mirror their fantasy expectations

personally I like watching attractive and healthy women, I can identify better with a person of any race, gender, sexuality, creed, etc that takes care of their health and appearance, not an unhealthy smelly thing that makes me feel sick :\ the agenda to promote ugliness and force acceptance of it is truly sad and gross

that is a great point actually, it is why the activists first hijacked online fandoms when the internet began because it was the perfect platform to shove their politics down teens and apolitical people’s throats and peer pressure them by calling dissenters all the usual buzzwords if they didnt re-”interpret” characters to virtue signal and appease the oppression stack.

yeah that is true, that is the women’s jealousy showing itself (and in some cases their control-freak tendencies), tumblr showcases their hypocrisy too with the double standards of sexual objectification

omg ... I have found my soul mate !!! ;D

Yeah and that is racist and sexist, once again SJWs are the thing they claim to hate. Personality and who you are matters, not what you are. for the people that think their entire being revolves around their race, gender and sexuality - that is pretty pathetic, that means they havent discovered themselves outside a group. One is supposed to let go of the ‘group’ after highschool. I think because millennials were given social media while they were still in highschool is why they havent grown up, they use it as an emotional crutch. Naturally a dependent person is going to feel helpless and confused because they arent thinking and evolving outside their surface traits that they cling to and use as victim cards. identity politics is cancer.

yeah... -__- yeah they eat themselves, this is a move of virtue signaling to gain more minority followers, they really are bigoted to think minorities want to be used as their fucking pawns in their self serving agenda

truth. the best a girl can hope for is a best friend and a sister. rumors, gossip and backstabbing is huge problem among girls/women, it is the result of being emotionally driven, lol

because feminist/sjws double standards and jealousy, and their dogma of “not please the male gaze” lol it is not up to them to tell people what to do and dress and be attracted to, but they do because they and their ideology is totalitarian

yup and they get their activists running rampant on damage control to ridicule people who point this out, who do they think they are fooling?? their strategy and co-ordinated efforts to brainwash the youth is fucking blatant at that point, we get students reporting the ideological bias bs they endure in the classrooms

thats why i find the romantic comedies of the past 20 years unbearable lol

there is nothing wrong with liking characters that all fall into one demographic due to great writing. I like characters for their journey+personalities+quality, gender and race is just the wrapping paper they come in. Badly written characters are the types that only focus on their race, gender, sexuality and nothing else, which are boring tokens and unrelatable on personal level. that why im resentful to fanfic writers that change characters recognizable identity traits (race, gender, sexuality), they prove they cant create a character and have no respect for established characters, even though those traits are what i called the “wrapping paper” it is still their image and a part of them. people that change canon characters are the bigots for changing them in the first place and would be the first to screech if a minority character was changed to be a different demographic. hypocrisy is the SJW game.

exactly, they build it up first, gain the following and support and devotion and then flip the switch. Jim Jones did the same thing. He gained his following by enticing a church, and then after filling them up with joy and hope and hoax miracles to convince them he was legit he then threw the bible onto the floor and said “did lightening strike me down?” and then began pushing his own marxist twisted beliefs and because the followers had been duped to sell their homes to donate to the Jim Jones church and live with the rest of the followers, (note it is easier to create a cult when they are isolated and exposed to the dogma all the time, like modern days ppl are hooked up to social media 24/7) it made it harder for them to just walk away. This is what these zealots do, they lure you in and once they have you they make you feel obligated and dependent on it and then switch the dogma an further poison your mind to reality. it is sick but they use this trick so often it is not hard to spot it, and it is always by the same brand of ideologues using the same methods.

#diversity #marvel #mcu #feminism #tokenism

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carnifcrous · 5 years

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could you give me a rundown on what being gender critical is? i get the basics i think but if you don’t mind explaining your views?

oh boy anon i’ll sure try!! idk if im the best person to talk about it tbh and ive confused a lot of people trying to explain my views before ahfjkfh but ill try REALLY hard to keep my adhd ass in check lmfao. if theres anything i said thats confusing & you need cleared up feel free to @ me againi dont know how long gender critical has existed as a concept, but i wouldnt be surprised if it was developed as a reaction to a certain VERY vocal part of the trans movement/trans rights activists

(so when you talk to people (trans ppl) about gender i think people usually break it down into several a few categories: gender identity, gender roles, and gender expression. i think most trans people are aware of & separate their sex from their gender identity, the identity being something innately part of every person, the roles generally speaking the bullshit that society expects & should be rejected, and gender expression really just being the traditional “feminine” or “masculine” behaviors/dress you use regardless of your innate identity.in trans circles/lgbt (merch, lol) sites i’ve seen the phrase passed around “gender is a social construct.” i think trans people who do/used to say that meant it kind of like that since gender was created by societies so it doesn’t matter how you identify/why not expand the understanding of gender (ergo, non-binary genders getting popularized). i think this fell out of popularity because it was transppls attempt to validate ourselves and conservatives cant wrap their mind around social constructs are/the distinction between sex and gender and so it wasnt really working out lmfaobut now there’s been some scientific studies getting popularized that have Suggested the existences of male & female brains and that trans ppl have the brain of their identified gender, therefore the disconnect between their brain and their body manifests as gender dysphoria. (i think the transmed community has especially taken to this idea esp because of kalvin garrah discovering these studies & now kind of preaching them as facts & science. with this comes him, his friends, and all the transmed ppl who stan him ryan and london saying that Gender Isnt Socially Constructed)then theres the posts circling around here saying Transwomen Are Women/Real Women + when the women’s march happened in america after trump got elected, i saw quite a few things on facebook where ppl were saying that all the talk of vaginas and shit were transphobic and trans-exclusionary and they should keep in mind that not all women have vaginas, etc etcthen u have what i believe (or at least hope) are outliers in the trans community being dug up (usually transwomen) who say........ The Most ridiculous shit imo. like saying theyre more of a woman than ciswomen (i’ll use cis strictly to mean not-trans in the context of this post), transwomen claiming theyre having a period, and just in general perpetuating “cotton ceiling” stuff like lesbians just needing to get over their transphobia to be with a pre-op transwoman. (again i would like to reiterate i DO NOT believe this is what the majority of transpeople believe, its just a vocal minority thats gotten attention from receipt blogs IMO.))**sorry that this post is already becoming an essay and if its derailing from the question, but this is what i think gender critical stuff is meant to react toso kind of in opposition to mainstream ideas of what gender is, i think radfems/gender critical people dont really break down gender into the different things like identity, roles and expression. from my understanding, gender was socially constructed based on sex stereotypes. i think we can all agree that stereotypes are Bad, so why should we identify with some set stereotypes?

the gender critical beliefs is that there’s not right or wrong way to be male or female (male and female in this post meaning to strictly refer to biological sex). gender is holding us back by continuing to subscribe to sex stereotypes and is counterproductive to building a society where people are free to express themselves however they like. (a lot of gender critical ppl equate gender identity with personality, and while i think this can sometimes be the case w nondysphoric people & mogai genders, it isn’t always and usually isnt, because as i mentioned before, a lot of ppl know enough to say that gender expression is something independent of gender identity.)as for my personal take on it & how it plays a part of my life (apologies that this is going to get super anecdotal):this all is related to my own transition. since questioning being trans, i fluctuated between different non-binary identities. i didnt think i was Trans Enough to call myself a transmale because i didnt want to kill myself over not having a penis (or even trans enough to call myself trans at all lol), so i thought i needed to stay as being nb. then i realized they/them pronouns did...... nothing for me. the whole time i had she/they/he or they/he in a profile i was always secretly hoping someone would just call me he lol.

but i felt like i was an insult to REAL transmen. it took me a while to realize that i didnt care too much about the specifics, i just needed to do what made me happy. that happiness was being read as male & using he/him pronouns.

but even then id still struggle. id have moments of thinking that i was just copying my best friend (who had a similar nb -> binary transmale path as me), or that i didnt even feel like a boy, that i was STILL faking being trans, that i should feel more of x y & z, that id made a mistake with starting testosterone, etc. reading radfem/gender critical stuff used to trigger the fuck out of me lmfao.i think what i eventually realized for myself and the sentiment other gender critical transppl share is that i was setting up an expectation/standard for myself that was impossible to attain. with mainstream gender theory, a cisman and i share our gender identity, our gender is the same (”cis” as its used to “identifying with your biological sex”). the thing is though, in terms of sex/gender, theres nothing i find that i have comparable to a male. i dont act like a “man” because im not one, im a TRANSman. ive lived most of my life so far as female and being socialized that way has been significant to me. i relate a lot to women and its always felt wrong to me how suddenly because im transitioning it felt to me like i was expected to revoke my right to speak on feminism/womens experiences. way before i discovered gender critical things i was pissed off at people trying to be “allies” to transpeople saying shit like “all men are trash transmen are real men so theyre trash too uwu!” like. fuck that. and fuck you for insinuating i would EVER treat a woman the way that men do.

like i know there are transmen (and just transppl in general, for that matter), who try to overcompensate with misogyny/misogynistic ideas because they think itll help them pass better but fuck

anyway. im proud of being a natal female and being socialized that way. being trans isnt exactly a party but im glad i could get the insight i have into the treatment of women and so forth. and the thing is, this isnt a contradiction to me being trans at all. once i let go of whether or not i was “male enough” of “valid” as a boy, i could once again just focus on the very concrete evidence in my life: i was EXTREMELY dysphoric about my chest. i’ve been on hrt for almost two years now and ive had top surgery. my dysphoria is almost non-existent since ive had surgery. i dont mind & even get excited about all the changes coming from being on testosterone. (dont like that i cant sing like i used to and that i’ll probably end up balding at least by my 50s if my dads head is any indication, but cismen have this problem too so whatever)

also ive never felt quite right when i was calling myself gay (exclusively attracted to men). i share some issues that gay men might, i Can be affected by homophobia because i Do pass as male, but its still not 100% the same experience and i think that distinction is importantmy concerns & how being gender critical is important to me:

me coming out as trans was a process over time. using the usual trans rhetoric, i was having difficulties explaining myself to people. specifically im thinking about my mom. when i said i was uncomfortable with being seen as a girl, she said she was uncomfortable too. she liked dressing more like a boy. some other shit she said too that i dont remember, but my basic takeaway: cispeople, particularly ciswomen, arent necessarily enthusiastically identifying with their correlated gender to their sex, because..... no reasonable person likes gender roles.

and i get worried about people like my mom who might be encouraged to identify as nonbinary just because theyre gender non-conforming. the identity itself wouldnt be much of a problem except that it seems to me like its being pretty normalized for nonbinary people to just kind of....... experiment with medical transitioning to try to achieve some Ideal androgynous form that would be.... Very difficult to achieve. i worry about people not thinking medical transitioning is a big deal and just kind of.... disregarding all the potential health consequences, how powerful testosterone is as a hormone, and so on. with the permanent changes that come people THEN end up experiencing dysphoria and life is.... really pretty difficult for detransitioned women from what i can tell, and a lot of people talk about how theres been a spike of people detransitioning lately.

i think part of the problem is 1. transmed/truscum people harassing & bullying nondysphoric trans-identified people, so they feel the need to medically transition to Prove Themselves and 2. just in general the aforementioned idea that everyone has a gender identity. i think itd be very uncommon for people to “identify” as cis, and so you get this whole mess of people thinking they need an androgynous body to match their androgynous identity......... etc.

bonus: my mom crying on her birthday because she said she didnt think shed be able to ever see me as a guy. “nonbinary, maybe, but you dont act like a boy.” problem solved, i dont act like a guy, i act like a transguy!!

also again, need to reiterate that i cant relate to men. i can never Become Male, not with our current technology. i was not socialized as male and thats okay!! its okay because im just doing what i need to in order to be comfortable with my body and myself. i dont need to worry about my dating pool seeing me as a Real Man because they can see me fully as the transman i am and my relationship with being a natal woman and just, shit like that. ive gotten a lot more comfortable with even being called she when it does happen (by accident by family members). its not a swear word to me and ive let go of a lot of expectations i thought i had to meet with being uncomfortable talking about my female organs and my past as living as a woman etc etc. im not trying to Be anything anymore. im just trying to live as myself

some of my issues with the gender critical community just as a disclaimer:

i have a lot honestly and im not going to be able to name them all off the top of my head

makes sense that it would be, but i think the community is rampant with transphobia in the sense of flattening transpeople to the “transcult” stereotype where they just..... dont seem to think of us as individuals. they think we’re all genderists getting triggered by misgendering & demanding our pronouns. they think all of us are “delusional” about our natal sex. they think we’re all gender conforming. they dont take dysphoria seriously in general, ESPECIALLY males experiencing dysphoria (i get that your feminism doesnt have to be concerned with “men” but come on). misgendering is just disrespectful to me (idgaf about rapists, whatever use whatever pronouns you feel the need for those people.)

just in general some people dont get that trans people can still exist in a post-gender world? and you can still be critical of gender while respecting people’s pronouns? by their very nature i think the transmed, radfem, and especially gender critical communities are attractive to bullies so you have those flocking to it, and thats an issue but... yeah.

this answer has gone on long enough and im really sorry anon im sure you didnt sign up to read a 13 page essay. i just got lost in my thoughts and felt like i had a lot of explaining to do. i think my feelings are both simple and complicated so idk if i even really answered your questions, i hope i did..., ;;

#sorry in advance guys i literally never proofread #and i had family come over in the middle of me typing this so i lost my train of thought midway #i dont know where to put this but some last thoughts #the transpeople who insist they have nothing to do with their natal sex make us look like a fucking joke #like thats so easily exploitable by transphobic conservatives #and im tired of them having that leverage because theyre fucking idiots and dont deserve any sort of intellectual upperhand #gender theory has a lot of holes in it i think and its way too easy to poke at right now #also i think even more important than transmen its important for transwomen to acknowledge they arent the same as ciswomen #i know dysphorias a bitch i know it sucks i know it hurts #im trying not to let my privilege let me forget because i DO have a lot of privilege #but when we're talking about females as an oppressed social class #you dont neatly fit in & share that same experience #doesnt mean you dont have problems/face oppression! but its most likely because youre trans #not because of your identity #also my take on gender critical theory is that it just..... fits for me #i had that whole section about why its important to me #but i also dont really care that much about ppl still subscribing to gender theory #like you do you boo i just think it can be harmful sometimes #anyway #long post #radfem #gender critical #discourse #pine speaks

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whereithappens-theroom-blog · 7 years

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Women's March and the future of Feminism.

I write this well aware of my hiatus, but I wanted to give myself time to cope with being done with school, deal with being jobless, then later the election and the downward spiral my depression took me in. All this time has given me some clarity and has given me something to write about, other than myself.

As I'm sure you and the rest of the world are aware, this Friday, January 20, 2017 is the beginning of a new era and one many of us are not only not ready for, but terrified of beginning. With this new start to the new America, we are witnessing an extreme interest or more like concern relating to the politics and what it means for us, all of us.

I grew up in a very political family. Not sure if its my Cuban heritage, and the history of my “people” or maybe it was just my family but regardless of why, I grew up in a very political family and government and how its run has always been topic of conversation for us, but for whatever reason I feel as though this election has made us all more excited about the election process, and thats saying a lot given that the majority of my family members are “secret” racists (also it seems to be a cuban thing I've noticed) and we've had a black president for the past 8 years (ps. I voted for him twice and I have serious love and admiration for BHO). So to say that this recent election has everyone up in arms is saying, A LOT.

This election started as crazy vs crazy (Republican party) and the democrat vs. the democratic socialist or the former independent. It was exciting to see the ridiculousness going on at every republican convention and the intelligent banter being held on the democrat side. But after months of pointing fingers, comparing hand size to penis size, email scandals, blood coming out of someones “wherever,” the American people were left with Hilary Clinton and Donald Trump aka the qualified vs. the morally bankrupt tan boy from NYC. Once both parties granted the Donald and Hilary as their parties candidates (conspiracies aside) we saw a completely different campaign being run on both ends of the political spectrum.

Once Donald Trump and Hilary Clinton were our candidates for president, we saw the most ridiculous as well as truly frightening campaign trail. We saw a man that disrespected women, hispanics, muslims, the disabled as well as the country. We saw Hilary Clinton do her best to prove that she was the better candidate by showing her track record as a politician, let alone woman and mother, meanwhile DT was asking for riots at his rallies, was heard telling his fans to beat up those who disagreed with him all while his atrocities were being showcased on every major news network in the country. Trump liked to mention Clintons email scandal which any sane human knows there was no sensitive information relating to the government in those emails, on top of her husbands past infidelities as if it had anything to do with her. I can continue with the absolute nonsense that was our most recent election but frankly, I'm too tired also this is the age of the internet where everything this man has done is currently flooding the web and once you re-realize all of this, ask yourself again, “how did we let this happen”?

Truth of the matter is, Donald Trump will be sworn in as our countries next president this coming Friday. This Friday, January 20, 2017 we as a country have given the golden ticket to an alt right president just 4 days after we celebrate a national hero, Martin Luther King Jr. It is truly gut wrenching and soul shattering to admit that this will happen and to know that by not tuning in doesn't stop history from happening. The only solace I take in knowing this truly upsetting and disgusting thing will happen this Friday is what is happening the following day, Saturday January 21, 2017.

Which brings me to the whole point I decided to write to you, the woman's march and the future of feminism.

On Saturday thousands of women will flood the streets of Washington D.C as well as other major cites across the globe to form a protest, similar to the Lysistrata movement of the early 2000′s. On that day, women and men of all ages will take to the streets to protest in favor of women's rights and against Donald Trump, his presidency and everything that comes with it ( Im looking at you Republican party, you're not exempt from this). On this day, all feminists, regardless of gender, age, creed will march together to prove to not just this incoming administration but the rest of the world that women's rights are human rights and its about time EVERYONE knows it. This Saturday is when all feminists, radical, intersectional, lesbian, religious, etc. feminists will march arm in arm, as sisters for a greater cause and why, because we finally understand that all women and all of our rights are in jeopardy. On this day we set aside this notion that the white feminist suffers more than the black, the gay, the muslim the trans,etc. As women and humans we understand that we all suffer the trials and tribulations that come with being born with a certain mind set, with certain sexual organs and because of this we have decided to stand and march together.

These next 4 years, whether Trump is impeached or not, are going to be difficult and knowing this we have to admit to ourselves that we are all sisters and one womans struggle is all of our struggle. We cannot allow for color of skin, sexual preference, religion or even the body parts we were born with to separate us in any way. God, science whatever and who ever you give credit for life made you this way because you are strong and capable of everything and because of this we all have to work together. We need to understand that our black sisters chanting “Black Lives Matter,” is a struggle we must not only empathize with but chant along side them. We need to understand that our muslim sisters who are attacked for wearing the religious garb is not something just happening to them, but to you and me and my neighbor etc. Look at life and creation, for a moment at least, as this idea that God who is all around us is similar or (perhaps the same?) as matter, it is always around us and is in us, therefore we are all equal. Neil degrasse Tyson once said and said it best that “The atoms of our bodies are traceable to stars that manufactured them in their cores and exploded these enriched ingredients across our galaxy, billions of years ago. For this reason, we are biologically connected to every other living thing in the world. We are chemically connected to all molecules on Earth. And we are atomically connected to all atoms in the universe. We are not figuratively, but literally stardust.”

If that is not proof enough of how we are all the same and family on this huge time line we call the history of earth, then I am out of words. All I ask is that my fellow feminists realize the importance of standing together in this crazy time. I am hoping that with this march and the ones like it, that when a child looking up the definition to feminism, that the definition isn't followed by smaller categories of the word because feminism isn't enough and it has to be particular to the individual group. I want this child to see one word, one definition and have it look something like this:

feminism: the advocacy of all women’s rights on the basis of equality

Remember, this march isn't just for the white feminists, or the black or the gay, trans, religious, atheist etc. but a march for women, all women. We can't wake up Saturday morning standing together then go about our business after 5pm, because one group of women aren't more or less important than another. After all, we are stardust, each and everyone of us, and just like the stars in the sky shine together, so will we all.

#wearestardust

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thesquidwizard · 3 years

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I was told reading Philosophical problems with blah blah blah would answer why making 500 genders would solve gender stereotypes I am petty and affable so I read it

If you want my opinions and my mind slowly melting i am kindly putting this under a read more cuz its fucking long as shit

the TLDR is : this drivel doesnt mention the problems of gender stereotypes or neogenders at all its just some guy wanking on why women need to give up their spaces because he thinks their wrong and annoying ( Kathleen Stock especially)

I’d love to @ you lake-lady, but you blocked me for thought crimes and im to lazy to try to get around that ( if you actually read this before recommending it to me, you are very very strong and very very brainwashed)

the first 14 paragraphs are circle talk "GC feminists are wrong, i will prove their wrong, they think "this" it is wrong ill prove its wrong etc etc etc" if you survive that that, They focus on Kathleen Stock in their words "Stock presents an articulate, relatively comprehensive, and moderate form of gender-critical feminism" first: If Margie’s self-diagnosis (“I’m a boy”) is questioned by the therapist, the therapist can be construed as . . . “converting” . . . a trans child to a “cis” one. If, on the other hand, Margie’s self-diagnosis is affirmed unquestioningly, the therapist is effectively failing to affirm Margie in a sexual orientation of lesbianism; something which also looks like conversion by omission. (Stock, 2018e) -They spend 5 paragraphs explaining why Stocks hypothetical girl^ isnt converted to male heterosexualness by transitioning, and not affirming Marges Gender identity is Dangerous They do not address Stocks ACTUAL concern that Gender Affirming Therapy without any kind of therapy and research on GNC and SSA children is conversion by omission because it doesnt take into account if these feelings stem from gender stereotypes and homophobia. Stocks is not concerned that you are converting this girl straight( sex is real she would be SSA either way) she is concerned your transitioning her without affirming her sexuality and giving her support in the knowledge that being a lesbian is okay and perfectly normal.-

Next: concern about female-only spaces is about legal self-identification without any period of “living as a woman,” prior male socialisation in a way which exacerbates the tendency to violence against female bodies, and the fact that many self-identifying trans women . . . retain both male genitalia and a sexual orientation towards females. (stock) If the evidence shows (as, in fact, it is already showing) that some males—whether genuinely “truly” trans or just pretending—turn out to pose a threat to females, and it’s really hard to tell in advance which ones will, can’t we then make a social norm and/or law to exclude all [natal] males from female-only spaces . . . ? (also stock)

-Quotes are separated by garbage but this whole section is what we have all seen before " why must trans woman suffer, just because cis men hurt woman" except its really long it acknowledges male violence rates but refuses to acknowledge we have already seen men (and identified transwoman) taking advantage to hurt woman. This whole chunk is just SOME woman must be sacrificed for Trans feelings-

They do put: Finally, we know that some men who come into contact with children in their work will offend against them. Yet we do not exclude all men from working with children, even if using gender as a watershed would prevent those offenses. Why does the good of minimizing child sexual abuse not lead us inexorably to the conclusion that we must outlaw all male teachers and coaches? Because our practical reason recognizes complexity: We readily see that even the most highly desirable states of affairs (minimizing abuse of children) do not have simple, quasi-mechanistic implications for policy or decision-making, and that they do not justify the indiscriminate suppression of other goods (even less important ones, such as professional vocations).

-And id like to add with the rise in pedo crimes I am 100% down with separating men from children because i do not think any child should be endangered just to keep men in jobs.-

They also put this quote in:

there is clearly a difference between the experience of a child who is treated by others in way that are characteristic of boys and also feels like a boy, and a child who is treated by others in ways that are characteristic of boys whilst feeling that they are really a girl. (Finlayson et al., 2018)

-And are you sure? are you really sure? I feel like there might be differences between social conditioning, experience and feelings. A boy treated like a boy and a boy(who feels like a girl) treated like a boy are still experiencing being treated and raised like a boy?? one just has emotional differences (is it internalized homophobia, Gender non conformity, a developed fetish?? who knows but they still experienced boyhood)-

-Next section says we cant make single stall or any other kind of netrual or trans bathrooms because its to hard? and it hurts trans feels reminding them that they have birth sexes because thats hate speech???-

also this: Our social world is arranged in a way that makes exclusion from the sex/gender they claim—on the basis of a lack of “authentic” belonging (Serano, 2007)—central to trans subordination. As with other forms of social subordination, trans exclusion has not only material dimensions (Blair & Hoskin, 2018; Hargie et al., 2017; Moolchaem et al., 2015; Movement Advancement Project and GLSEN, 2017; Rondón Garcia & Martin Romero, 2016; Serano, 2013; Stonewall, n.d.; Yona, 2015), but also discursive ones that work in accordance with the logic of so-called performatives. Performatives are utterances that do things with words: specifically, they accomplish something in the act of saying it (Austin, 1975). The classical example is marriage—in the act of declaring a couple married, a celebrant brings about a change in their normative status, provided the celebrant is the right person in the right circumstances. This presupposes a normative background (that is a set of laws, conventions, or other rules) governing all those matters: who qualifies as a legitimate celebrant, what the right circumstances are for the performative to do its work, what marriage status means in terms of spouses’ rights and obligations, etc.

-Celebrating a Marriage is celebrating a couples chosen form of representing their relationship publicly and adding each other to their legal family, how is that the same as letting men into woman's bathrooms because they have feelings??-

-Theres more babblery about subjugating trans people by not pretending biology is fake, and that saying they cant just taking womans rights and spaces is denying their reality and existence we find out the author is a gay(cis) man so why does he have opinions on womans spaces and issues who fucking knows ( he really likes the word unintelligible)-

-Im tired, Ive taken several breaks just to stay clear headed( mildly sane) and now we are onto why Trans inclusive practices dont threaten the concept of female, male, lesbian and gay. Okay buddy ole pal bring it on-

Stock (2018b) has also argued that trans inclusion on the ground of self-identification/declaration threatens “a secure understanding” of concepts intimately related to “woman”—namely, “female” and “lesbian.” It is hard to see this threat as a real one. After all, conceptually, “trans maleness” and “trans femaleness” presuppose “cis maleness” and “cis femaleness” as their other—namely, the case of female and male for which no transition, no reaching across, is required: the case of femaleness and maleness already on this side of (= “cis”) their sex.

-At some point i expect to find out Stock implied his dick is tiny or something " gender crit feminists are wrong im gonna argue with just this one" In this section he manages to be long winded and say nothing have a taste:

Stock (2019b) argues, correctly, that “sex [i.e., maleness and femaleness] is not determined by any single, unitary set of essential criteria,” and that “there is no single set of features a person must have in order to count as male or female.” She goes on to state that: (a) “you do still need to possess some” female (biological) sex characteristics to count as female; (b) that this is “a real, material condition upon sex-category-membership”; and (c) that “medical professionals [assigning sex]. . . rely upon an established methodology, aimed at capturing pre-existing biological facts” (Stock 2019b). Stock presents (a), (b), and (c) as if they were true without qualification. In fact, they only describe how, for very legitimate reasons, sex is understood and assigned within the discourses of biology and medicine; but our everyday usages of “male” and “female” may well be more capacious. It does not follow, of course, that there is no connection at all between these discursive domains—biology and the everyday. Rather, something like the biological meaning of “male” and “female” refer to the central cases of “male” and “female” as those terms feature in everyday usages. But those usages, if trans-inclusive (as they should be), will also cover, legitimately and usefully, noncentral cases of those selfsame terms.

-Yes you need to be female to be female, it doesnt matter what you look like how much you weigh your hobbies or tastes you just need to be female. Observed Biology is observed not assigned we dont pop out blank slates until someone says "ya this ones a girl"-

There really is no good reason to fear that such trans-inclusive practices will imperil “maleness” and “femaleness” as concepts. It is the very fact that those concepts have and will retain central cases that puts to rest any such fear. What makes something like the biological meanings of “male” and “female” the central cases of everyday usages of those words is “[o]rdinary-life truth seeking, a certain level of which is essential for survival”; this “involves a swift instinctive testing of innumerable kinds of coherence against innumerable kinds of extra-linguistic data” (Murdoch, 1992). Reproduction is a key aspect of human experience: The existence of each of us and the perpetuation of the human species presuppose it. The extra-linguistic reality of the dioecious configuration of human bodies, which is functional to human reproduction, means both that the concept of “female” and “male” are here to stay, and that their central cases will remain well-understood, even after we give up on trans-exclusionary attitudes, practices, and policies. To put it another way: trans-inclusive linguistic usages, policies, and so on, cannot threaten the distinction between the concepts of “male” and “female,” which hinges on the nondisposability of the central cases of those concepts.

For similar reasons, it is difficult to agree with Stock that characterizing as “gay” trans men attracted to men, and as “lesbian” trans women attracted to women, “leaves us with no linguistic resources to talk about that form of sexual orientation that continues to arouse the distinctive kind of bigotry known as homophobia” (Stock, 2019d). After all, our linguistic conventions make cissexual womanhood and manhood the central or paradigmatic cases of “womanhood” and “manhood”; cissexual (though not necessarily gender-conforming) lesbianism and male homosexuality the central or paradigmatic cases of “lesbianism” and “male homosexuality,” and so on. This will not change. First because of the prevalence of cissexual women/men and cissexual lesbians/gay men, in terms of sheer numbers, relative to trans women/men and trans lesbians/gay men. Second, because of the ways in which the concepts of “man,” “woman,” “gay,” “lesbian,” “cis,” and “trans” sit together with the concepts of “male” and “female,” which reference an extra-linguistic reality, of which, as we have already seen, we cannot but take notice. Given these linguistic and empirical facts, a trans-inclusive use of the terms “lesbian” and “gay” does not carry the dangers Stock (2019d) worries about.

-I keep going back and checking the date this was published in 2020 clearly this man has neither been online except to stalk Stock, nor talked to a human who actually believes what he is arguing against. No one is mad at transwoman for liking woman or vise versa its the kind of woman and men they go after and EXPECT romance and validation from ( ie lesbians and gay men, ie threatening what lesbian and gay mean in "inclusive" climates) fucking knob.-

I dunno if this is translated or the writer isnt english but he keeps using subordination where "opression" would be used and umm. anyway onto "Overemphasizing Sex-Based Subordination"

first he explains the difference between paranoid and paranoid structuralism there is so much fucking bullshit then we get to some quotes! that are bullshit-

Even assuming that the socialization of trans girls mirrors that of cis boys, the fact that trans girls do not identify with maleness can be expected to make a difference to the outcomes of such socialization (Finlayson et al., 2018).

-this guys back, love this guy doesnt know you dont fucking socialize yourself-

It is a mistake to treat “violence and discrimination against trans women . . . as if it were unconnected to that faced by cis women” (Finlayson et al., 2018).

-Finlayson marry me your so smart, that big brain of yours is sooo sexy. Anyway transwoman and "cis" woman face violence from the same people.. Men. but it is not for the same reasons and most transwoman who face violence are brown and black sex workers( if your gonna care go wholesys not halfseys). As opposed to woman who face violence no matter their class, race, nationality, age.. etc etc etc-

Saying “Not giving people everything they desire is not a denial of their humanity” (Allen et al., 2019) amounts to an insensitive dismissal of the serious argument that trans exclusion is ipso facto harmful.

-I want an affordable home and access to food and water whenever i am hungry, you want me to pretend reality doesnt exist so your feefees dont get hurt-

The claim that women “are a culturally subordinated group . . . [while] at best, trans women are a distinct subordinated group; at worst . . . members of the dominant group” entirely discounts the ways in which sex, gender, and cis/trans status intersect. These intersections produce more complex, shifting, and context-dependent power relationships than are captured by the M > F formula.

-Sex based oppression is actually like jello, sometimes woman are less oppressed or oppressed slightly more to the left, I too can just kinda say words-

A dubious assumption underlies this statement: “[T]he fact that our concept-application [of, e.g., ‘woman’] might indirectly convey disadvantage towards some social groups [e.g., trans women] is not itself a reason to criticise the concept use, because the concept use has a further valuable point” (such as “to pick out a distinctive group, relative to recognisably important interests”) (Stock, 2019e). The dubious assumption here is that the “valuable point” of a restrictive use of the concept will be lost if the concept is broadened. The assumption is dubious because even in its broad, inclusive use, the concept retains a readily identifiable central case.

-Yes you dunder head if we start calling lizards mammals we lose the point of what makes a mammal a mammal, which complicates and endangers our way of researching and understanding mammals by making woman "whoever the fucks wants to be one" we loss the ability to easily talk about things that are exclusive to woman the more female language is edified the harder it is for females to unite to talk about womans issues, womans health, girls puberty, womans oppression etc etc.-

-my fuck i dont even care to learn this mans name and i have a personal hatred just for him, i hope ya'll have noticed he uses several different "sources" for his arguments and yet pins GC feminism on Stock alone. Anyway here we go into Doing Philosophy and Debating Policy in the Age of Social Media and Digital Platforms ( i think this man nuts every time he types out philosophy)-

my god we have brough Plato into this, Stocks must stand alone but we are at fucking plato, anyway this section actually has some brains in it there drivel but also truth:

Needless to say, in real-world face-to-face exchanges, unalloyed communicative action is known only by approximation. But there are very good reasons to think that the distance between the ideal (namely, communicative action) and the real is especially wide in the context of the quasi-spoken digital media used to construct (and respond to) the gender-critical case against trans inclusion. Stock (2019f) herself, discussing the reception of her arguments, has complained about countless “half-arsed takedown attempts” by “online philosophers,” crediting, conversely, philosophers she meets offline with “interesting, constructive, and charitable” objections. She also notes that social media siphons “users into paranoid, angry silos” (Stock, 2019d), and that “when reading disembodied words on a screen” it is “easy enough” to engage in “projection” (Stock, 2019a). Why and how do social media and allied platforms have this potential for distorting genuine communicative action?

First, they enable new manipulative communication practices, such as flaming and trolling. The popular support base of gender-critical academics makes ample use of these, though gender-critical scholars are also at the receiving end. Rather than using the quasi-spoken features of social media and allied platforms with a view to genuinely advancing understanding, online activists may exploit these features for strategic aims. Common techniques include drowning a post or blog with irrelevant comments; exposing the blogger to ridicule; deflecting attention from the point she made; forcing her to address spurious objections; pretextually professing a failure to understand, demanding endless further explanations; and so on. Some of these techniques are available in spoken exchanges, but social media and allied platforms magnify their power by enabling “widely-distributed individuals to organize and galvanize around issues of common interest [or] political advocacy” (Stewart, 2016); and by facilitating the use of nonverbal or nonargument-based, but effective, communicative devices, such as memes, gifs, and emoticons.

Another way in which these digital media distort genuine communicative action is by affecting the motivations of the blogger, or micro-blogger, herself. Specifically, they facilitate the interference with genuinely communicative goals (reaching understanding) by noncommunicative, strategic aims. I will discuss three: acquiring influence, career progression, and venting.

In traditional academic communicative practice, one’s recognition as an expert is supposed to follow from the credit that accrues to one as a result of the soundness of one’s research methods and arguments, judged through peer-review processes. But “in the era of social media there are now many different ways that a scientist can build their public profile; the publication of high-quality scientific papers being just one” (Hall, 2014). Veletsianos and Kimmons (2016) have found, by examining a large data set of education scholars’ participation on Twitter, that

being widely followed on social media is impacted by many factors that may have little to do with the quality of scholarly work . . . and . . . that participation and popularity may be impacted by a number of additional factors unrelated to scholarly merit (e.g., wit, controversy, longevity; p. 6).

-This section like every section goes on forever but we finally finally reach our conclusion-

Cooper (2019) has invoked a legal pluralist perspective to argue that it is possible, and may be desirable, for gender as conceived by gender-critical feminists (as “sex-based domination”) and gender as conceived in trans-affirming terms (as “identity diversity”) to coexist side-by-side in the law. Access to women’s spaces is just the kind of policy matter that need not choose between one conception of gender and the other: it can and should be granted on the basis of both. While a compelling feminist case has been made for inclusion (Finlayson et al., 2018), the best feminist case against inclusion suffers from a number of argumentative fallacies (Aristotle, n.d.), and is at odds with well-established and sound uses of practical reason. Many problems in gender-critical thought are consistent with the explanation that paranoid structuralism is too often presupposed in gender-critical work, rather than being treated, productively, as a hypothesis. The nature of the publication outlets favored by gender-critical feminists (social media, blogs, etc.) is also likely to be implicated in generating some of these problems.

I think one of the things i would like anyone who managed to read this entire thing to take away from this is that not ONCE were male bathrooms or male spaces mentioned, not once did this apparently "cis" gay man say that he welcomes and wants transmen in HIS spaces or that he has even thought about it

(((( also he didnt even mention neo genders so my original question 100% unanswered, even fuckface magee doesnt think demiboys are real. He doesnt want to or even mention solving sex based oppression he just wants woman to stop fighting to keep men out))))

#gender critical #gender critical feminism #GC #radfem #terf friendly #anyone with a strong brain try to read the original piece its contras brother i swear to fucking god #id say radfem friendly but he doesnt touch womans issues he doesnt care #trans exclusive

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mtg2469 · 5 years

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The word gender derives from 'genre' meaning 'type' or 'kind' - and there are 'all kinds of everything ' as Dana sang to us .

But it has been used to refer to connotations about people based on sex ie our potential role in the human procreation process - so gender is a synonym for sex : it does not allude to connotations about people based on eye colour .

It alludes to those qualities or ways commonly associated with or culturally expected of men or women - hence the words masculine or feminine.

So you can express yourself in a way thats some people deem "too masculine/ feminine" disapprovingly - but you 'can't please all the people all the time' - including how you feel about yourself : fact of life .

Our gender is ascribed according to our potential role in the humsn procreation process - the words female and male woman and man simply denoting this.

Our gender simply references this one aspect about us - based on * objective* factors including the apt genitals to facilitate the process.

And the word gender is basically a synonym for sex - referring to ideas etc connoted with males or females ie whats deemed feminine or masculine : gender does not allude to ideas about a person based on their blood group .

So no one chooses their gender.

It is trans people who 'load' the words and self-consciously react against these by wanting to be * id ' ed * as the opposite sex because of paranoia about implied social expectations of the genders - the judgements of being ' wo/ manly ' enough or not , which we all are liable to be subject to .

Indeed by wanting to be id' ed as the opposite sex to justify their having certain tastes, qualities etc connoted with the opposite sex - transgender people are reinforcing gender stereotypes :

The PC TG activists narrative betrays itself as oxymoronic and disingenuous which is inherent to PC ideology .

A transgender identity is simply a * social* one - likewise claiming to be non-binary .

Drilling down into biology to " prove" transgendering will simply show we are all individuals: our own names accomodate for that - indeed it would show we are all gender non-binary.

An intersex condition is between the two sexes - whatever variation - and has commonly been deemed a ' fault ' which it is in the context of wanting your " own " children but otherwise - not really .

Dont even bother invoking science to justify trangendering : it does NOT behove anyone to justify modifying their body ( when old enough)/ expressing themselves in a paricular way other than it gives them comfort or a thrill:

Bigots who would want you to conform to gendered expectations would simply say any bio factor is a defect, find a cure - so it wont convince them.

Fact of life : 'You cant please all the people all the time ' - including yourself about yourself.

TERFs' concern is about men who want to socially be id'ed as a woman but still have male genitals having access to women only spaces : they wont be worried about those who have had gender confirmation surgery ie genitsl modification - the surgery that * confirms* women do not have penises but vaginas .

If they did object to gender confirmed transwomen in w/ o spaces they would have a hard time selling a convincing argument

PC feminism is underpinned by the precept that men are ever and the only threat to women ; that an offence is automatically worse if it involves a penis or the person perpetrating any has one : basically , misandry.

In the current situation that gender segregated spsces is based on genitals the PC feminist justification being that men are ever snd the only threat to women - which is propogating an invidious idea of ( straight) men - it is arrogantly audacious to expect men to support other men who want to be id ' ed as women but still hsve their male parts hsving access to w/ o spaces.

In permitting some men into w/ o spaces , the intimation is that a man in a dress is sanctified simply by doing so - but remember transwomen are not necessarily homosexual .

'Gender is about a feeling '? Men who dont want to trans gender id dont ' feel' like being demonised

If you endorse gender self identification if a transperson commits a crime you dont get to revoke their trans card because its " bad PR" for trans people de facto implying its a " cis " person problem

The fundamental problem is we often give * undue * relevance - which is not saying it never matters eg its a waste of everyones time for my GP to call me for a cervical smear test - to gender in many situations in life that hassles us all in some way.

So toilets changing rooms should be designed to afford individual privacy safety without implying assumptions sbout anyone based on gender.

Using preferred gender titles/ pronouns in a * social * context is not generally problematic : if the person "passed " as the opposite sex you ' d be none the wiser that it was not the accurate term to use . In some contexts eg customer service, workplace - it should be the law to use a preferred pronoun gendered form of address etc when talking directly to the person.

We shouldnt have to be referring to gender when addressing people - its not much more relevant than our blood group in everyday life. We need non gendered forms of address .

Re - sports : catagorise and grade participants accorrding to bio factors relevant to the sport rather than just gender

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