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weaselbeaselpants · 3 years

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Weird week behind me weird week ahead of me but I’ve done a lot of self reflection and came to the weirdest epiphany. The older I get the more I realize all my ‘problems’ with VivziePop - her thoughts on criticism; the choices she makes in story telling; some of the people she’s worked with (not that any of that’s my business; I’m not her mom) really aren’t about Viv, but more about her fandom.

I’m speaking of the preHazbin era Viv here and as someone who’s only watch horny fish jump at the surface rather than jump straight into the Hazbin-fandom, but given my ‘noncritical’ fellow fans have told me that the Vivziefandom now is also terrible - I guess I’ll go over my experience and make the most out of what I do know.

I followed Viv in 2009 and fell off in 2013 cause I kinda just lost interest and found myself wrapped up in other fandoms. I’ve always felt amicable about her content; I could give or take designs or the way in which she wrote characters -- ((Zech represent!!!)) but it’s honestly surreal and really fun seeing this person I recognize make it big and improve so much. Like I’ve said before I am very happy and very impressed with Viv doing all she’s done in the span of TWO YEARS. wow gurl.

Trouble is, there was the particular breed of fan who really made me...uncomfortable. They felt almost possessive of Viv’s attention. They sang praises about her work in a way that just made me want nothing to do with it because I was worried if I drew those characters these people would be like ‘hey, I’M Viv’s fav artist, not you!”. They would unironically write Viv messages like:

“you are a GOD” -- “I’m so not worthy compared to you” --“I wish I was as talented as you” -- “YOU ARE EVERYTHING AND CAN’T DO WRONG VIV”.

The kind of messages which were meant to sound flattering but, intentional or not, came off as gaslighting, like they were guilt tripping Viv about being better than them. This behavior, treating your favorite artist/internet personality like your superior and groveling like Starscream, it strikes a nerve with me; partly because I was this way with my favorite artists and influences back in the day, but also because once I got a taste of that treatment myself I realized just how bad it could be:

There was once a girl on dA who was jealous of me because of the attention I got on my art instead of her. I told her that I wasn’t gonna stop drawing but also that there was nothing wrong with her art and she’d find her place. It was weird being put in that position where someone is very clearly upset at you but also looking for your approval.

The second was some scumball who I blocked in 2016. He wouldn’t speak to me, only write condescending, backhanded comments on my art; check on my profile daily; call me a bootlicker (cuz I took commissions) behind my back; redrew my art and would talk about me in his personal artist notes about how I ‘probably wouldn’t see this’ - oh yeah all the while he did fan art of my characters but again never spoke to me when I replied. When I finally messaged him about his behavior he said he thought I was “really overrated” and “bad for the fandom” cuz I took money and kept him from getting the love he deserved. It took messaging another person within our fandom, one I had been in spats with online before, to finally realize I shouldn't put up with that bs....

That guy who was stalking me btw did so while I was well under 1.K watchers and am still pretty obscure. Anyway, I had one guy unhealthily watching me for the wrong reasons. Just one. This is why when Viv says she “hates creeps” I 150% believe this woman and am not about to call her a liar who just can’t take criticism. Like, if you really think that, I’m sorry but you don’t know what Viv’s gone through from both her critics AND fans.

Of course, a lot of people will be like “I bet you’re just jealous and really just want that kind of attention yourself so you’re preaching to the choir”, but like...no. I am envious of just about any creator who’s the social butterfly I’m not, but, like, if I'm jealous of an artist none of that is that artists’ fault. Ever. It’s my own issues with being comfortable with myself are at stake. If I criticize Viv’s work it’s not because I see her as competition or my Squilliam Fancyson; it’s because I’m a critical fan of animation and cartoons and have my own thoughts to share on the cartoons of an artist I’m familiar with. Jealousy/envy/mixed-admiration/godIwishthatwereme.jpeg feels are totally natural and valid emotions when you’re a creator. Envy becomes a problem when you internalize, weaponize, and scrutinize people on the basis of them being what you aren’t which -yes - some people do in the name of criticism. ((Although, I would hardly say some of the nastiest AntiViv folk are jealous as much as they are angry that this project they think is harmful is getting attention and using that as justification for some really shitty behavior of their own, which no, this post is not a part of by virtue of coming from a critical fan.))

Critique can come from either a good place or bad place; good critique can be used to bad ends and bad critique can come from a well-meaning place, and vice versa. It’s the difference between many a criticalfan having a sour taste in their mouth regarding the Viv’s base but persisting in a critique+admiration separate of that, and this asswipemonster trying to weasel his way into Spindlehorse while also bashing Viv on a public forum for clearly vitriolic reasons. He was a creep.

So yeah um please stop insisting that every Hazbin critic is just jealous’ because a) there are people who have a past with Viv’s base and that clouds their judgement, but in a lot of cases that doesn’t invalidate their feelings or thoughts on her work separate from that, and b) I’ve seen what clingy gaslighting jealous fans are. Spoiler: they’re not so much Annie Wilkes as much as they are Tommy Wiseaus. You don’t want Tommy Wiseau following you.

Another bad vibe I really picked up on that I can kinda confirm is still probably the case now: people think that they know Viv and the Spindlehorse crew and have the right to send them shit they don’t need or WANT to be seeing.

Like, I talked with Viv once ages ago. I don’t remember what I said other than we were talking about Frankenweenie, I think. She was nice. Outside of that she said “thank you” to my comments on her deviations but that’s it. I DO NOT KNOW THIS WOMAN AND unless you’ve worked with or are a legit friend/mutual of hers, NEITHER DO YOU. But I don’t think every Vivzie stan/critic knows this. Whether it be people assuming she MUST think they’re headcanon is now canon-canon cuz she liked a comment they made; or some critic thinking they must have seriously hurt her pride because they’ve been blocked by her on twitter (or you know, maybe she and the rest of Spindlehorse is tired of getting @s and don’t have to time to read through your analysis so they’re gonna just block and move on cuz they’re busy).

Just because the creators talk with fans doesn’t mean fans are literally their best friends and have a part in the show’s direction. And yes, critics and reviewers fit that bill as well. Know your damn boundaries people.

If you find/make some kind of contribution as a viewer that’s awesome but you should never expect nor DEMAND the creator see it. The most obvious horror stories involving this and Helluva/Hazbin have been the Instagrams made by the crew being harassed by incestpedo enthusiasts, but it applies even to just @ing creators as well.

I’ve seriously had someone tell me to just take my criticisms directly to Viv and like...no. Why would I do that?

I respect Viv and the artists working with her enough to know that they’re working their asses off on an animated series and should not be bothered. I don’t want them to stop all they’re doing and reply to me. I want them to keep working. Also, that kind of logic makes me wonder how many critics Viv’s found because she found it on her own or if some obsessed fan told her about it - which is really messed up cuz if it IS just good critique you’re, again, just pestering her, and if it wasn’t critique but full on harassment WHY THE FUCK WOULD YOU MESSAGE HER ABOUT THAT ANYWAY? I’m sure she doesn’t need to be reminded that people drew and said really awful shit about her on Tapatalk. My point being I’m sure what people think they’re doing is

“OOOoh Viv lookitwut this person is doing in our fandom we need to ban together against this toxic behavior”

but what they’re actually doing, and sounding like, is -

“Hey Viv I know you are working so hard on the show and you’re trying to figure out where to go from here but LOOKITWHUTTHISHATERSAID. LOOKATIT! VALIDATE ME VIV AND PUT’EM IN THEIR PLAAAAAACE!”

TL;DR Viv’s fanbase back in the day consisted of everyman artists and interests but there was this one breed of fan -who I hope was just a vocal minority- that ruined it for everything else.

Call it stanning or ‘simping’ or as it’s classically known, ‘white knighting’, whatever it was it really soured a lot of people on her because of those fans.

That’s why the DollCreep drama got so bad from what I can tell. Doll and Viv had a falling out and then called out eachother online where people who took it upon themselves to speak for them starting throwing mud.

Back in the day I remember Viv used to get mad at artists for ‘stealing’ her style. I think this attitude from Viv directly has vanished but I remember it happening because one of the people she thought was stealing her style did art for me at some point and they were basically shamed/chased off deviantART by a gaggle of these really nasty Vivfans.

inb4> “VIV WAS AWARE AND STILL WEAPONIZES HER FANS THO”

I don’t know that. And honestly, where I’m inclined to believe she’d do something like that then I think Viv is really different and has improved her business and public image from her college days. I’d be very disappointed in her if she was pulling a Butch Hartman or Derek Savage, but I just don’t think she is one, k?

Viv is more self critical and aware than any of these uber protective-gatekeeping fans give her credit for. She said on the Pizzapartypodcast that she knows the Hazbin pilot wasn’t perfect; she’s been able to identify the problems with old Zoophobia; this woman knows that criticism of all kinds need to exist and from what I see she sounds like she’s trying to get used to that. It’s just, you know, when you have nasty antis badgering you, stalkers, obsessive yes-mam’ fans, opinionated shit posters, r34 artists, entitled shippers and the NDAs of a company alongside your own branded image - all that negativity, even the constructive bits, tend to clump together and you just want to scream at it so you can finish the damn cartoon already!!!!

TL;DR: PART TWO

VivziePop/mind is basically indie Tim Burton. Her work is fun, shallow and made with love but is marketed as being for everyone when it’s really not. Parts of it I love to watch; parts of it drives me crazy cuz of reasonswhatev this isn’t a review.

BUT any fanbase where people tell me I should just “expect what’s coming to me” when I’m trying to argue against dragging creators into fandrama is troubling. People have a parasocial bond with fandoms and their creators and they need to learn when to back off.

#vivziepop critical #hazbin hotel critical #helluva boss critical #critical fandom #I'm sorry to all the people I messaged n bothered over the past year bout my stupid thoughts #tw: stalker

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comicteaparty · 4 years

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February 24th-March 1st, 2020 CTP Archive

The archive for the Comic Tea Party week long chat that occurred from February 24th, 2020 to March 1st, 2020. The chat focused on Whispers of the Past by Crona J.

Featured Comment:

Chat:

Comic Tea Party

BOOK CLUB START!

Hello and welcome everyone to Comic Tea Party’s Book Club~! This week we’ll be focusing on Whispers of the Past by Crona J.~! (https://www.webtoons.com/en/challenge/whispers-of-the-past/list?title_no=191366)

You are free to read and comment about the comic all week at your own pace until March 1st, so stop on by whenever it suits your schedule! Discussions are freeform, but we do offer discussion prompts in the pins for those who’d like to have them. Additionally, remember that while constructive criticism is allowed, our focus is to have fun and appreciate the comic! Whether you finish the comic or can only read a few pages, everyone is welcome to join and chat with us!

DISCUSSION PROMPTS – PART 1

1. What did you like about the beginning of the comic?

2. What has been your favorite moment in the comic (so far)?

3. Who is your favorite character?

4. Which characters do like seeing interact the most?

5. What is something you like about the art? If you have a favorite illustration, please share it!

6. What is a theme you like that the comic explores?

7. What do you like about the comic’s story or overall related content?

8. Overall, what do you think the comic’s strengths are?

Don’t feel inspired by the prompts? Feel free to discuss anything else that interested you!

FeatheryJustice

So far, first impressions, holy cow the art is amazing.

Ash🦀

1. My favorite part about the beginning was the style. It immediately drew me in how everything was lovingly rendered in color that made me feel like I was seeing the world for the first time. It made me want to paint, too! 2. When we first see the man. Whoo buddy. Whoooooooo buddy. That was... a finely sculpted painting there. I could’ve framed him and hung him on my wall if the artist would let me. WHOOOO BUDDY. 3. My favorite character so far is Martel. I don’t write them often, but I love seeing kids in media, and I love the design of her hair. I know it’s a random thing to make me like her but I just... really like her hairstyle. She’s cute, and I’d guess she’ll be a breath of much-needed light air later in the story. 4. Mystery man and Martel are precious. 5. I point to answer 2 here. That lovingly sculpted chest? My heart was a-flutter I tell you what. 6. The art style is just... SO LOVINGLY RENDERED. The quiet moments of baking bread juxtaposed against a chaotic battle was SO. GOOD. Aaaaaah Could also be that that particular part is my favorite part of making bread so it was extra special aaaaaaah 7-8 I haven’t seen enough of the story to answer these yet! But the art is banging and I can’t wait to read more. Subscribed.

Eightfish (Puppeteer)

I've read this before and the art and story aren't really my thing. Since critique is allowed I could give art comments if CronaJ would find that kind of thing helpful? But even though I won't be following the story I was still impressed by how much care the author puts into it. Both from looking at their comic and from reading their comments on this discord and on the tap forum it's clear they've put a ton of effort into the art and story, and haven't cut any corner.s And all the panels are so rendered. I wonder how long it takes to draw a page?(edited)

Cronaj (Whispers of the Past)

Hey everyone! I'm the artist and writer of Whispers of the Past. I want to thank you all for your kind comments and observations so far. It really means a lot to me to hear what others think of this heartfelt project. I know that the story is in the beginning stages right now. But I'm looking to post the end of the first chapter this week, so hopefully a bit more will be revealed soon. Please feel free to ask me questions about anything, or (to answer @Eightfish (Puppeteer)'s question), to offer critiques for how I can improve what I'm doing.(edited)

Cronaj (Whispers of the Past)

@FeatheryJustice & @Ash🦀 I'm glad you enjoy the artwork. The painting process is probably what takes me the longest when it comes to pages. In response to @Eightfish (Puppeteer)... It takes me around 30-40 hours per page, and I try to post 2-3 page updates. Obviously, the amount of time spent per page varies depending on several factors, such as: the number of panels, the level of complication of poses, how many characters/background elements there are, and sometimes just whatever weird reason my brain isn't working that day ^^; So for my average 5-7 panel pages, they typically take longer than, say, a full-page spread. @Ash🦀 I'm so happy that the first few pages pulled you in! I spent a lot of time deciding on how I wanted to draw those panels, and what style to use, etc. I actually redrew the first 3 pages at least 5 times before settling on them as they are. And, you can hang and frame the image of our male MC if you want, haha, I actually don't have prints of it, but it is something to consider That particular panel was a one-page spread, so I was able to dedicate a bit more detail to it. Maret is a worthy favorite character. She is too pure and precious, and she just wants to make friends with everybody. Even when the "strange man" is kind of curt and unfriendly to her, she wants to befriend him. Also, I am SO unbelievably glad that you picked up on the juxtaposition in the bread-making scene! Ahhhh! I had a lot of fun with that one

FeatheryJustice

1. The Pacing, I love slow starts to comics because I get to absorb it and learn more. 2. Favourite Moment? Dude trying to climb out the window and failing. That was really funny XD 3. Mysterious dude from the water of course. He has pointed ears, you know something is up. 4. I like Maret and the mysterious man, it seems like a child being like 'this is new and I want to learn more' Also thank you for not writing a grating child character. They sometimes turn up too pure to be real, or too grating because they are too real. Maret at least has that nice balance of a healthy child will not acted spoiled but still want things because child like the scene where she was shoo'ed out of the room. 5. I think we talked about htis a long time ago, but I love the way you draw hands and feet! 6. Nothing so far, not sure where the story will head so I can't answer this. 7. I like the start of the mystery and the slow ramp up. We are just getting comfortable and I'm sure we are going to get rocky soon! 8. Art, from seeing Cronaj spend so much time on it, it's freaking amazing. I can almost feel the characters come to life.

Also on a side note, I want Maret to hear from the Conch shell (As a memey joke) "Under the sea, under the sea" XD

(Mysterious man has red hair, I wouldn't be surprised he turned out to be a mermaid XD Sorry I'm just on slight crack theory mode right now. He didn't sell his voice though)

Cronaj (Whispers of the Past)

When I was first writing and planning this comic, I was a little scared about how slow the start was, but I'm glad that it has been interesting despite the slow nature of the exposition.

2. Favourite Moment? Dude trying to climb out the window and failing. That was really funny XD

@FeatheryJustice Accurate! He's kind of an idiot, and he panics over nothing. For Maret... I actually based her character partially off of my two younger sisters, so that might be a lot of what contributes to her personality and realism. We did talk about hands and feet before! I love drawing hands, because they are so expressive and complex, but hate drawing feet because they are complicated. But I did study from life to draw Maret's feet, because I felt like I would mess it up otherwise ^^;

Hahahaha! I could definitely make an edit of that, tbh.

FeatheryJustice

That would be a funny joke panel if you ever want to do one. XD It's like replace the diaolgue memes XD

Cronaj (Whispers of the Past)

And I was partially making a mermaid joke when I had the reference to mermaids in the comic because he is a redhead

Definitely an idea....

I would title the episode "Whispers of the Crack"

FeatheryJustice

OMG YES I would love to see that XD

Cronaj (Whispers of the Past)

I have a WotP meme folder on my computer already

carcarchu

1. What did you like about the beginning of the comic? Mystery man pretty 2. What has been your favorite moment in the comic (so far)? i liked the part where maret was listening to the conch for mermaids, had a lovely magical charm to it 3. Who is your favorite character? mystery man 4. Which characters do like seeing interact the most? not too many interactions so far but maret and the mystery man were cute 5. What is something you like about the art? If you have a favorite illustration, please share it! the sunset scenery had a nice vibe

also i can see why people were saying it reminded them of ruroni kenshin, mystery guy especially with his hair up and on the cover image is reminiscent of kenshin but storywise doesn't remind me of it at all

carcarchu

I have some critiques that i'll cover in case you don't want to see them. SPOILER The anime-ish emotes (the blush and the anger vein) to me clash against the realistic artsyle and detracts from the moments, some more subtlety with them would be appreciated. And Maret doesn't really look like a child to me, her face is very mature so it makes her look older than she is. Moreover the 3 characters that have been introduced thus far have very similar facial features. For maret and agatha they are siblings so it makes sense but the mystery man is (presumably?) not related to them so i'm not sure if that's intentional. In any case more facial diversity would be appreciated going forward (if it's just your style that's fine too). And this is a really small nit-pick but the first panel of chapter 6 has horse hooves with the sfx thump thump thump. In my opinion this sfx should be clip clop clip clop END SPOILER

Cronaj (Whispers of the Past)

@carcarchu Thanks for the notes! I actually had a hard time deciding how to portray blush noticeably in a more realistic style, haha, but I can definitely see why it's jarring. Do you have any tips for how to depict blushing without anime emotes? I would just make it more reddish/pink, but it always looks weird to me (or too unnoticeable). As for Maret... She looks like a child to me? She's six, so she isn't quite a toddler, so I don't know if that changes your perception of her. She actually resembles my youngest sister a great deal, and my youngest sister was 5, almost six, when I designed her. (I just looked through the pages again, and there's maybe one panel that I think she looks slightly older in, so if anything, I'll try to fix that panel.) So yes, obviously Agatha and Maret look very similar, hahaha. They are biological sisters, so that makes sense. There will be at least two more characters introduced that are also related to them (and look fairly similar as well) and one character who will be mentioned who is also related and looks just like Agatha. Other than that, Izrekiel does look somewhat similar, I suppose, but it might also be partially that he canonically has a very feminine face as opposed to other male characters to be introduced later. It could be that and also a bit as a result of my style. I'm not sure. Ahhhh, sound effects! I also struggled with deciding what to do here. I wanted to do something different than "clip clop," mostly for a stupid personal hang-up. (I don't know why, but "clip clop" always looks so comical to me.) But if it helps translate the sound better, I might just have to bite the bullet and change it. Thanks for your feedback! Even if I don't agree with all of it, it does help me to take a closer look at what I've done with some different eyes. (edited)

carcarchu

That's fair! You don't have to accept anything just my thoughts (i hope nothing i said was too harsh) for me thump thump is a dull sound whereas clip clop or clippity clop is a sharper and harsher sound

Cronaj (Whispers of the Past)

yeah, I think you're right about that

thump is more like a heartbeat

or someone falling on carpet or something

carcarchu

and as for the blush question i think there are ways to depict a similar emotion without relying on the blush itself as a short hand like the softening of the eyes, the shape of the eyebrows, looking down and heck even body language can help with this. expression is more than what is shown on just the face

Cronaj (Whispers of the Past)

Thank you. I always feel like my characters look too stiff, like mannequins. ^^; I'm probably not going to completely redraw any old panels at this point, but I might make a few alterations to these panels to make it more consistent with later panels down the line.

carcarchu

i also noticed that a lot of your panels are the characters looking straight towards the "camera" and i would appreciate more varied angles and perspectives

Cronaj (Whispers of the Past)

Particularly with the first ten pages, that is certainly true

I got that note before, but I didn't redraw every panel, only some which looked particularly bad.

carcarchu

personally i never edit old chapters unless i 1. forgot to draw something important 2. there's a huge typo 3. it's missing a panel

any critique you can just keep in your heart and implement if you choose to do so moving forward

keii'ii (Heart of Keol)

2. I really liked "what if it's mama?" - a lot of hints condensed there: family history, how the topic of deaths/ disappearances are handled around children (either in that family specifically, or in that culture), and also a moment that shows a glimpse of Agatha's sisterly love instead of having the readers assume it.

snuffysam (Super Galaxy Knights)

Really loving the comic so far! Right now, I'm most interested to learn about this family situation. I'm guessing their mother is dead or missing, but what about their father? I suppose his clothes were still in the house so maybe he just went out? Or maybe they're both missing and it was just fairly recent?

Also, the paint-y style of this comic is just incredible

Cronaj (Whispers of the Past)

https://media.tenor.com/images/878a64d90a1139bcb1e863ee29bfa929/tenor.gif

I'm so happy that you guys picked up on the clues about their mother. It alludes to some pretty plot heavy stuff that very few people have really commented on so far.

eli [a winged tale]

Oooh I’m so excited for your story Cronaj! Here are my answers~ 1) I love the beach scene! Maret with the shell is adorable and you established their relationship right away 2) Fav moment is probably the scene transition to our lad waking up with Agatha going about her day. It’s very peaceful and I’m a sucker for slice of life stuff. 3) Can’t pick just yet~ I like Agatha as a solid protagonist though. 4) More Agatha x mystery man please 5) I loooove the illustration aesthetics. Bold colours! 6) haven’t gotten to the core theme yet I’m sure but first impressions/meeting are always exciting. 7) I’m excited for what is to come. Can’t wait for the call to adventure. 8) Strength is definitely the art - beautiful and bold. Keep up the wonderful work!

Cronaj (Whispers of the Past)

@eli [a winged tale] Woah!!! You're the first person I've heard say that they like Agatha! She's mah girl! (And don't you worry, there will definitely be a lot more Agatha x Mystery Man ) Thanks for participating

eli [a winged tale]

she’s a solid sister!

sagaholmgaard

1. What did you like about the beginning of the comic? I like how the intro had a nice balance between art and text. Usually if there’s a lot of text on the first page I can get deterred from heading a comic, but here I think it worked really well! And the loverly painting of the ocean sunset also reeled me in and fit really well with the poetic text! 2. What has been your favorite moment in the comic (so far)? ”He’s the prettiest man I’ve ever seen!” LOL (and she’s right too…) 3. Who is your favorite character? I like the kid! But I’m excited to learn more about the other characters as the story goes on! 4. Which characters do like seeing interact the most? I liked Agatha and Mystery Man interacting, it felt very natural and I’m curious to see what comes of it. But the dialogue felt pretty strong which I gotta applaud 5. What is something you like about the art? If you have a favorite illustration, please share it! The beautiful shot of Mystery Man on the beach of course, lol! I love the way the hair is rendered, it really feels like it’s has weight and is spread out in the sand, if that makes sense? 6. What is a theme you like that the comic explores? It seems like it will explore a lot of interesting themes in the future, such as grief and finding where you belong, so again I’m interested to see what the story brings! I’m sure it’ll be good no matter what :D Overall I like what I’ve read so far! It’s not the type of art style I usually gravitate towards, but I can tell a lot of love is going into rendering and I think we’ll be seeing Crona’s art improve a lot as the story goes on, which is always exciting to see!

RebelVampire

What I like about the beginning of the comic, which also goes for what I like about the art in general, is the attention to detail in the background colors and lighting. I've never seen such a beautifully rendered (what I assume is) a sunset. It really makes everything have this great almost mystical atmosphere to it. In general, though, the art so far is definitely the comic's strength because you can see the sheer passion in every drop of it. My favorite moment so far is when Maret gives Izrekiel some flowers and then drags him off and he's just meekly protesting. It was both cute and comedic and the preciousness hurt my heart. This is also why this is my favorite pair of characters interacting so far. I think the age gap combined with the context of Izrekiel's situation is gonna lead to lots of awkwardness that I look forward to. As for fave character, though, I would have to go with Agatha right now. I don't know what it is about her, but everytime I see her I feel like I'm looking at an old soul. Like maybe someone who still has a lot to learn about the world, but is wise beyond her years in other regards. And it makes her a captivating character for me.

While I'm not sure if this will be an overall theme throughout, I like that the comic starts to deal with the theme of loss and hope. On one side you have Agatha who just kind of accepts loss and deals with it, and then you have Maret who just lives on in hope. And I kind of feel they represent two dynamic sides to the issue about whether its better to cling to hope or just move on and deal and how both can be harmful if not expressed in the correct way. As for overall story content, while we're not that deep in, I do like it starts with a multitude of mysteries cause mysteries are always great for making ppl want answers

Eightfish (Puppeteer)

Since Crona said they were good with art critique: The main thing I noticed when I first saw the art was that, though lovingly rendered, the characters' faces and bodies are kind of stiff. They don't really scrunch up their eyes and faces when they emote- it's mostly just the eyebrows (this was especially noticable when Maret was crying, or on the latest page, first panel, where Agatha's face doesn't really match her body language or words). And characters often don't seem to twist their bodies as much as they should. Oh- also the same camera angles of faces and bodies are repeated a lot. Front, 3/4, and profile. It'd be cool to see some shots with foreshortening from above or below the characters. Also the lighting is pretty diffuse- the characters seem to be shaded about the same way, and with the same colors, regardless of the lighting situation. I can still tell where the light is coming from, because there are those strong bright highlights in the direction of the light, but other than the bright highlights everything else seems to be shaded as if there was another light source coming from straight ahead. Also, sometimes characters seem to lose their shadows? Like on this page https://www.webtoons.com/en/challenge/whispers-of-the-past/ch-1-what-the-waves-left-behind-pt-3/viewer?title_no=191366&episode_no=4 where Agatha doesn't cast a shadow on the man, or this page https://www.webtoons.com/en/challenge/whispers-of-the-past/ch-1-what-the-waves-left-behind-pt-8/viewer?title_no=191366&episode_no=10 where they're running.

Those things being said though, I was still very impressed by the sheer amount of effort put into this comic. 100 hours/ update is absolutely insane. And you pay so much attention to the inanimate objects of this world. It makes the story feel grounded. About what someone else said: I agree that the cartoonish blush looks out of place. But I disagree about Maret- I think she does look like a child. 5. Favorite illustration? Definitely Agatha's hands when making dough. Not a critique but just a question: I was confused on the location of the story. Where is this?

Cronaj (Whispers of the Past)

Ooof. Finally got a chance to sit down and respond to all these comments. I keep rereading them over and over again, so thank you so much for sharing your thoughts everyone! I've noticed a few themes with what people have commented so far: Maret is most people's favorite character, the panel of Izrekiel on the beach is also very popular, and the theme of loss/grief is apparent to the readers (which I'm very happy about.)

@sagaholmgaard I'm glad that you mentioned the theme of "finding where you belong" too, because it is and will be a very prevalent theme in the comic. And reading your comment about how the dialogue seems natural made my day. I used to worry about how the dialogue came off constantly, and to hear that it's strong is so encouraging.

@RebelVampire As is expected, your comments are very thought-out. The interaction between Izrekiel and Maret after he falls from the window is one of my favorite moments so far as well. I'm happy that Izrekiel's behavior came off as meek in this scene, because that is one of the defining traits of his personality. I'm glad for another Agatha fan! She is such a fun (and difficult) character for me to portray. There are so many layers about her that even I am still discovering. She is definitely an old soul, and he experiences growing up have definitely matured her beyond her years. As I mentioned before, the theme of loss is definitely a major theme of the comic overall. And hope as well, since I think the two are very connected.

Cronaj (Whispers of the Past)

@Eightfish (Puppeteer) Thank you for offering your critiques! Character stiffness is definitely one of my major problems that I'm working at. I definitely see what you mean about Agatha's face in the latest update. Her eyebrows look painted on (pun not intended). I have been looking forward to having some more dynamic poses, especially foreshortening, but I do find it somewhat difficult when most of what the characters are doing so far are standing, sitting, talking, and maybe doing something with their hands. ^^; Hopefully, in the future, when more "action" happens, it will be easier to do this. As for bird's eye or worm's eye shots, I'm not gonna lie, I struggle with them so much. I had two bird's eye panels, and those took so much time, and I still don't know how I feel about them. If you have any tips for exercises, I would be so grateful. (Finding reference isn't always possible.) I also would love some tips/resources on how to get better at lighting. Again, lighting reference isn't always possible for specific panels, so it would help me a lot to learn how light works in general. OOOOOOF! I don't know how I missed the lack of shadow on Izrekiel in that panel. That was 100% a stupid oversight on my part. The scene with Agatha making dough had some of my personal favorite illustrations for a while. :) Also, your question about the location, I'm not entirely sure how to answer it?(edited)

It's a high fantasy story, so the location is entirely fictional.

Cronaj (Whispers of the Past)

The best I can answer that is to say that the story takes place in a country called Shai-Ryam, consisting of four major "districts" in a semi-tropical temperate peninsula called "The Aka Peninsula," named after the native people who originally lived there. As of right now, they are in a city called Gon Atam, a seaside village on the western shore of the Nuata District, near the Ocean of Saturuna. It is a city heavy in trade and with a long history, yet quaint and small due to a disaster several hundred years ago. It is only now being repopulated.

Comic Tea Party

DISCUSSION PROMPTS – PART 2

9. Where do you think Izrekiel comes from, and what is his past history that seems to haunt him? Additionally, how do you think he wound up with amnesia and seemingly abandoned by the sea?

10. How will Izrekiel’s past history affect events of the story? In particular, how will revelations about his past affect his relationship with Agatha and other characters?

11. How do you think Agatha’s life will change from her encounter with Izrekiel? Will it somehow lead her to a more exciting life? If so, will it make her miss her simpler life with her family?

12. What are the biggest questions you have so far and are hoping to see answered over the course of the story? Also, what do you think will happen in the story in general?

Don’t feel inspired by the prompts? Feel free to discuss anything else that interested you!

Ash🦀

9. Okay, so, here’s my theory. Just a guess. So Izrekiel is from a very war-friendly people up north who need land. Izzy just isn’t all about that life, but feels like he has no choice. Then he gets hurt fighting someone close to him (I’m putting money on brother or cousin who lives on the “wrong” side of things, hurt because he just couldn’t fight them at full strength. And then he realizes he can’t do it, while on the ship bound for new fight zones. His captain gets wind of it and is like “oh no I can’t let Mutiny Happen” so HeS all long ike “either fall in line or get off my ship” and Izzy is like “no I don’t wanna fight anymore heck you guys” and the captain proceeds to yeet him off the ship, leading him to the island, which, unbeknownst to him, is the next target. That’s my guess. Might be wildly off. He might be part mermaid. (Merman? Is mermaid gender neutral?) 10. Izzy or his bros probably killed one of Agatha’s family members, possibly the mom? Possibly violently? Which is why she never told babygirl what’s up. It’s probably going to be remembered in the buds of their relationship, hes going to try to hide it but it’ll come to light and she’s gonna be like “Izzy I hate you” and it’s going to make me cry. 11. She’s going to have a bread making partner in the end. They’re going to have adventures and go back to a domestic bread making existence, I speak it into being now /smacks table That may just be what I want to happen, though, as I very much enjoy bread making and wish others the same simple joy of giving dough a good smacking. 12. IS THE MOTHER REALLY A MERMAID OR WHAT Is Agatha a mermaid Are they like Selkies where they can come onto land a little Is babygirl a mermaid too(edited)

Cronaj (Whispers of the Past)

Omg... I love reading these theories. I won't say you're wrong or right, but this is a riot. I'm thoroughly enjoying this.

FeatheryJustice

9. Pulls out my Crack Theory brain Okay, so Iz is actually not a very hot man, but actually a really hot princess, transformed into a man since she was exciled from her country but their rules are to give the exiled a new life so they shape shift them into something else. Iz got shifted into a man, and the lovely wide bare chest was because their top was lost to the ocean like how someone would lose their bathing suit top to the sea. Anyways, knowing nothing about themselves, Iz now lives their life as a man never remembering they were a princess in the first place. Ends Crack Theory 10. Don't know, can't say for now. 11. She could always politely kick him out later, so I can't say for now. XD 12. I want to know if there are monsters in this story or just like different species warring it out.

RT|NitghVision

^ I like this theory

Eightfish (Puppeteer)

@Cronaj (Whispers of the Past) Oh! I missed that it was high fantasy. I thought the story was historical fiction. No wonder mystery man has pointed ears. I was so confused- I kept thinking, oh, she looks Polynesian and lives by the ocean. But wait, her name is Agatha and she makes bread? And the houses look Japanese? What culture are her clothes from? The world being completely fictional explains all that. I think I was confused by the real names in a high fantasy story- you don't really see that a lot. Finding the right reference for lighting or pose is impossible for me. I have no tips. The only way I've found is to make my own references. I will sit in front of a window, or take a lamp into a dark room or something, and prop my phone up and take photos of myself in the poses and lighting direction I need. But hey, at least that way I don't have to worry about stealing someone else's work?

(i also like feathery's theory)

Cronaj (Whispers of the Past)

@FeatheryJustice Crack theories are best theories.

@Eightfish (Puppeteer) Oh! I had no idea you thought it was historical fiction No wonder you were confused! There's a lot of weird cultural-mixing shenanigans going on in the setting, and it's a bit confusing.

I should try that, for now the lighting has been primarily sunlight, or diffused sunlight (which I don't think I depicted correctly).

RebelVampire

Time to crack story theory. I don't know enough about the world to guess a name to where Izrekiel is from. However, wherever it's from, I get the impression its embroiled in a bloody war that is suffering heavy casualties. I imagine that Izrekiel mightve been in a battle and just wound up in the sea by circumstance - like maybe was taken as a prisoner of war and jumped overboard to escape. Something like that. As for the amnesia, well, Imma chock that up to PTSD cause the brief flashbacks we got don't look pleasant. However, I definitely think someone will come looking for him, and that these someone's will make trouble with the people he's just met - perhaps even forcing them to abandon their home with people in pursuit. And I'm sure as Izrekiel remembers more, others are going to really view him as potentially dangerous and blame him (but then get over it cause he's pretty O_O) Given that, I do think Agatha is gonna leave home because of Izrekiel's past running after them. I do think she's inevitably gonna miss the simpler life. Not to the point she won't rise to the challenge, but to the point that she's gonna be like "wait theres danger out here and i didnt even get a sword from an old man in a cave!" As for biggest questions, right now I'm just kind of hoping to see more of the world cause current world events really are gonna dictate a lot where the story could go.

Eightfish (Puppeteer)

Dude I was literally googling the names to see what country they were from because I thought they were from some obscure real island with a history of cultural mixing that I hadn't heard about before.

Cronaj (Whispers of the Past)

Hahaha! Yeah, Agatha is an English name. Maret and Kelan (a character that hasn't been introduced yet) are Irish names. Aalia (another character that isn't introduced yet) is an Arabic name. Kehhasan (another character) is a made-up name. Izrekiel is a made-up name inspired by the biblical names Israel and Ezekiel (although technically it is often spelled in their alphabet as "Isarikieru," which has a particular meaning and pronunciation in an even older—fictional—language). Ryukou (another character), is a real-ish name, based off of the Japanese names "Ryu" and "Kou," which mean "dragon" and "peace/light" respectively. Four other characters have fictional names: Ia, Tammamori, Soro, Ghita (although technically it's a Greek name, that wasn't my inspiration). And of course there are hundreds of side characters with a combination of weird names and name origins.

Comic Tea Party

DISCUSSION PROMPTS – PART 3

13. What are you most looking forward to seeing in regards to the comic?

14. Any final words of encouragement for the comic?

Don’t feel inspired by the prompts? Feel free to discuss anything else that interested you!

Deo101 [Millennium]

So! I don't really do so well with answering questions, but I do want to say it's inspiring to me to see just how much WORK is put into this comic. It's really lovely to see so clearly how much you care for it. Just want to give some general words of encouragement, keep it up!

Ash🦀

I’m most looking forward to seeing more of Izzy how the story develops along with your painting. There are so many hints and peeks at the world, and I can’t really guess where it’s going. I feel like I already care for these characters, and I can’t wait to see their journey. I am also not good at encouragement, as generally I’m fueled by spite. But I just wanted to say, keep going! You got this! We believe in you!

eli [a winged tale]

Keep up the good work Cronaj! Your art is beautiful and I can’t wait till we start rolling into act 2!

FeatheryJustice

I'm excited to see what else comes up next!

Cronaj (Whispers of the Past)

Thanks for all the kind words and encouragement everyone! I'm so happy to know that you are enjoying the story so far!

RebelVampire

I'm most looking to learning a bit more about the world structure I think. Since I think current events are really gonna hint at a lot what's going on. As for final words, this is an artistically wonderful comic with a lot of love put in, and I can only imagine how things will improve in the future!

snuffysam (Super Galaxy Knights)

I'm just really looking forward to seeing these characters grow! This is a beautiful comic, and I can't wait to get more of it!

Cronaj (Whispers of the Past)

Before the book club ends, I just wanted to pop back in and say thank you to everyone for their participation. Your kindness, insight, and critiques will stay with me for years to come. I'm so happy to have found a supportive community of readers and fellow creators!

Comic Tea Party

BOOK CLUB END!

Thank you everyone so much for reading and chatting about Whispers of the Past this week! Please also give a special thank you to Crona J. for volunteering the comic and creating it! If you liked Whispers of the Past, make sure to continue to support it via some of the links below!

Read and Comment: https://www.webtoons.com/en/challenge/whispers-of-the-past/list?title_no=191366

Crona J.’s Patreon: https://www.patreon.com/cronasonlyfriend

Crona J.’s Ko-Fi: https://ko-fi.com/cronaj

Crona J.’s Twitter: https://twitter.com/CronajArt

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