#s5 Lucifer is mostly like. why would he have experience doing this. why would he have any knowledge on it | Explore Tumblr Posts and Blogs

spn-romantica · 3 years

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So I watched SPN for years, right up until the end of S11, when they brought back Mary. I heard that S15 would be the last season, and I was like ‘oh ok I’ll rewatch (for like the 8th time) and finish SPN then’ BUT THEN 15x18 happened and I was violently pulled back into the SPN fandom. I still haven’t caught up fully watching yet, but I’ve read so much discourse now...and I have thoughts. Hypotheses currently. I’ll wait to finish the whole show for real to call any of this theories but, I wanted to record my thoughts.

They’re about Chuck. As a villain. Which weirds me out. As an antagonist? Sure. As evil? No. Can’t envision it. I just finished my rewatch of S5 and, damn, but if Chuck is the ultimate villain, S5 reads very differently. :0

But I recently saw a post comparing Dean’s reaction in 1x18 (I believe) to his in 10x05 (for sure) about when someone mentions his mother’s death. In 1x18, it’s Sam when they were children and Dean gets angry. In 10x05, it’s a group of high school girls and Dean just bops his head along to the song. The post was framing it as 10x05 not understanding Dean’s thoughts about his mother, but I think that both episodes understand Dean. When Dean is a child, the trauma over his mother’s murder is still fresh. By 10x05, the event is 70 years in the past. Of course it still affects Dean. Of course. You never really get over something like that. But I’d argue that after 70 years, Dean has moved through the stages of grief to acceptance. It still hurts, but like an old ache, not a fresh, still-bleeding wound.

Interestingly, 10x05 is when we see Chuck, after a long absence. He’s watching the play, probably happy that someone loves his work enough to even make a musical, but he is also watching the Winchesters. The actual episodes of the show, aka the books Chuck writes, are what Chuck knows/cares about regarding the Winchesters. Despite being God, I’d argue he doesn’t pay attention to every second and all the little minutia of the boys’ lives. So, here in 10x05, we have confirmation that Chuck is around to see that Dean has healed from his mother’s death.

Later, in S11, Dean acts as therapist/life counsellor to Chuck/God, regarding Amara and Lucifer. And it works! Dean teaches God about family and about healing. Why does God listen to Dean Winchester, a random human? Perhaps it is because of S1-5. Perhaps it is because Dean and Sam were part of God’s test, as God himself describes it in 5x22.

What was the test? Was it God’s experiment about choice and free will? About freedom vs peace? Or, perhaps, was God trying to understand sibling relationships? He and Amara are two faces of the same coin. They are siblings, but with very different outlooks and it caused a rift between them, caused Chuck to seal Amara away before she could destroy his creations. Chuck regretted this, but saw it as a necessary betrayal. But then, some time later, Chuck’s angelic children experience their own betrayal and sibling rift. Lucifer tries to turn the angels against God, rebel and reject God. He makes demons, for sure, and maybe even Hell. But why? God figures that Lucifer was maybe jealous of the new baby (humans) like others in the show postulates. Or maybe Lucifer had beef specifically with Michael, because humans are little more than amoebas from an angelic perspective. Aside from Castiel, Anna and a handful of other angels, angels consistently view humans as humans might view dust mites. Maybe humans were the cause of the rift between Michael and Lucifer, but it was Michael and Lucifer’s relationship that needed fixing in the end, regardless.

So God is left with the sad conclusion that maybe close siblings will inevitably betray each other and be unable to forgive and heal. He wants to heal with Amara. But he also wants Michael and Lucifer to be able to heal. (It doesn’t occur to God that maybe Lucifer’s problem was never with humanity or Michael; it was with God.)

So God has research to do, to see if it’s possible for siblings to experience such deep betrayal and still heal. He turns to his little hairless apes, the only sentient species on Earth with potential to parallel the angels. He starts testing siblings. Cain and Abel are first up. Needless to say, but the betrayal was too strong and left no room for healing. But on down the line of Cain, God continues testing. Eventually, we come to Sam and Dean.

God has scheduled Michael and Lucifer’s family counselling session for 2010. All the data up to this point says it can only end badly. Maybe it’ll half-kill the Earth, but it’s finally time for Michael and Lucifer to meet and for one of them to die. God isn’t happy about this conclusion, but it’s what the data says. So, finally, the last test subjects, the last in the line who will be the vessels for Michael and Lucifer’s showdown, arrive. Sam and Dean Winchester are to be the last sibling test. The conclusion seems foregone at this point, but there is no point in cancelling the last bit of the test after so long, so it continues. God watches. And Sam and Dean surprise God. Siblings after siblings had failed for millennia to heal. Betrayals too strong, healing too little, too late. But Sam and Dean. no matter how badly they hurt each other, find a way to come back together and heal. They don’t give up on each other, despite millennia of data to the contrary. Still, the angels and demons push and push at Sam and Dean until their rift is as wide and as deep as Michael and Lucifer’s, as God’s and Amara’s (in late S4). It seems, despite the brothers’ best efforts earlier on, it’s all for naught.

But there is a further element of randomness, something God couldn’t foresee. Castiel. God hasn’t had occasion for romantic love in his own experience, so he is entirely blind to what choices Castiel is likely to make. He provides an element of randomness to the experiment, an essential part that gives Dean the ultimate chance to go back to Sam and begin to heal (4x22).

Throughout S5, Sam and Dean heal. There is hurt, still, of course, but they love each other and forgive each other. By 5x22, they’ve surprised everyone. Even the angels have given up on turning them against each other, and have shrugged and settled for using Nick and Adam as the vessels for the showdown. Sam and Dean passed their test. They were siblings who betrayed each other and healed from it. God reconsiders how family counselling will go with Michael and Lucifer. He figured it would be the Apocalypse, the end of the problems between Michael and Lucifer, as one of them dies, as had always happened before. But, Sam and Dean showed God, that though it is rare, it is possible to heal. So God gives Sam and Dean an out. He gives Sam the strength to seize back control from Lucifer, should things go south.

Finally, the showdown arrives. Michael and Lucifer meet. They talk things out. To God’s surprise, Lucifer reveals that he never had a problem with Michael. He had forgiven Michael long ago. But Michael couldn’t forgive Lucifer. He had to be a ‘good son’ and do what he thought God wanted him to do. But Michael didn’t realise, that God doesn’t give orders. Free will all the way, baby! But the whole thing comes as a surprise. Apparently, all this time, the problem relationship wasn’t siblings, it was parents.

Oops.

Good thing God had a back-up plan.

Sam throws himself and Lucifer (and Michael and Adam) into the Cage. Michael and Lucifer have an eternity to figure things out between each other now. But that’s beside the point. The point is, now, that God has to start testing all over again. Not how to fix sibling relationships, but how to fix parent-child relationships.

God restores Castiel, perhaps for a few reasons because God exists outside of time, but originally it may have been just for one. He likes Castiel. He is impressed that Castiel invented free will for himself, broke free of angelic programming (multiple times over), and did it all for love. It’s novel. It’s interesting. God might even think it’s sweet. But God has had time later, and thought about it, and he has a plan. And Castiel is essential.

But Dean Winchester is the key.

Sam and Dean’s relationship with their own father has been strained, but both boys find a way to forgive John his flaws and failings, and love him. Whenever they do get a chance to see him again, post his death, they don’t hate him. They’ve healed. John’s relationship with Sam and Dean is one point of data, Abraham and Isaac another. There are many data points that God can reflect back on and consider.

But as S6 through S10 roll on, God watches Sam and Dean and Castiel. He even watches Crowley and Rowena for another data point. Dean is his main focus, however. (This is a little meta, but as the story focuses more on Dean than Sam post S5, it ties in. Prior to S6, both Sam and Dean were essential - the sibling test. Now, post S5, the parent test, Dean is the most essential. Of course, Sam and Castiel are important too. But Dean is key.)

Dean is a good father. He was a good father to Sam, even when he was only 6 years old himself. He was a good father to Ben. He was willing to die for Bobby John. He’s always good with kids. Not only that, but Dean is blunt enough, brave enough, and crazy enough to tell God to God’s face what he thinks. God needs Dean’s advice, his perspective and opinion on family relationships, but he also needs to see what Dean would do if he were in God’s shoes.

[Edit (1/04/21): After seeing Michael and Lucifer (mostly) heal, and after seeing Sam and Dean heal their relationship, God finally has hope for him and Amara. So God logically wants to retrieve Amara from her prison. But how? Well, he could just wander on up to Cain and do it himself, but what would Amara say? “So I see you’ve come crawling back, eh, Chucky?” She wouldn’t be impressed with God. She wouldn’t understand, because she’s hopeless too. SO how to give her hope? How to make her see that she and God can be okay again? Why, stick her near Dean Winchester, of course! So God sets things up for Dean to get and lose the Mark of Cain, thereby ensuring that Amara will feel a connection to Dean and stick around him/keep him alive long enough for Dean to work his life-coach magic.]

In S11, God and Amara heal their relationship because of the hope Sam and Dean gave God, and also the direct advice Dean gives God. God and Lucifer, not so much.

God needs more data. He needs to see what Dean would do. In comes Castiel’s relevance. God sets things up so that Lucifer can have a son. A nephil. Jack. And God points Castiel in Jack’s direction, trusting Castiel’s ability for unconditional love to keep Jack alive long enough for the experiment. Castiel becomes Jack’s father. But Castiel will never betray Jack, the way God betrayed Lucifer. And, besides, Castiel isn’t the target of this experiment. But it is Castiel’s relationship with Dean Winchester that provides the link needed to get the experiment rolling.

Because Jack is Castiel’s son, he is therefore Sam and Dean’s nephew. Except, God has been watching Castiel and Dean. And, frankly, their romantic love for each other is so obvious even God cannot miss it. Through Castiel, Dean sees Jack as his son too. He loves Jack, exactly like a son. In this way, Dean parallels God, and Jack parallels Lucifer.

But God knows Dean would not easily turn on any child, let alone his own child. So God had a plan for that too. One that Amara helped him with.

They brought back Mary Winchester.

Mary is the one person in existence whose loss would hurt Dean enough to spur him to action. So, she was brought back to die. It was a matter of only a few years of gentle prodding to get everything in position. Jack causes Mary’s death. Dean is faced with a horrible decision. If Jack can kill Mary, what’s to say that Sam and Castiel wouldn’t be next? Mary’s death is like everything beginning all over again for Dean as well. Her first death set off a chain reaction, a series of unfortunate events that spanned decades and nearly caused the ruination of not only Dean’s life, but Sam’s and John’s and even the world. That scar, which had healed as well as it could after 70 years, that God saw was healed in 10x05, has been violently opened up again. It’s the only thing that could force Dean’s hand, that could get him to betray Jack and try to kill him. If Jack had killed Sam or Castiel, it wouldn’t have had the same effect. Both Sam and Castiel had died and come back so many times, and while it would hurt Dean and make him doubt Jack, their deaths would be a sacrifice that Dean would feel obligated to respect, to give Jack a second chance like they would both want. (And God has been laying the groundwork for Dean, convincing him that Jack is evil, will be evil like Lucifer, can’t be allowed to live. All things God has thought about Lucifer over time. Was Lucifer inherently evil? Was their rift inevitable?)

So, here it is. The big test. Will Dean kill Jack? Will he betray Jack and cause an unhealable rift? Or will he find a way to heal, like he did with Sam against all the odds?

And, once again, Dean impresses God. He refuses to kill Jack.

But now we’re in the endgame. Sam, Dean and Castiel are aware that Jack’s life was only on the line because of God. It’s not something they can forgive, or understand. They’re all God’s guinea pigs, and while he loves his guinea pigs, he knows he’s hurt them in the name of science, of knowledge. or healing, and God can’t undo what he’s done. Free will is linear, after all. So it is time for the Winchesters, Castiel and Jack included, to be done with God. God is done with them, too. It’s time for them to be free and at peace. The experiments are done. God has decided not to kill Lucifer. He has decided to try to heal. He can get Lucifer out of the Empty and talk and try to fix things. He has forever to fix things, now that he knows he can. (The last element of this, Jack forgiving Dean for trying to kill him, is something I have limited knowledge of, but I am under the impression happens so... To be added in the edit once I finish the series.)

But the only way the Winchesters will be able to rest, is if they think God, the last and greatest villain, is out of the way. They know they’ve been manipulated their whole lives, first towards the sibling experiment and now the parent experiment, so they need to think God is gone so they can feel secure in their free will once more. Truthfully, God never took their free will. He set them up in situations, maybe even gave a bio-chemical nudge of anger (Dean) or attraction (Sam and Eileen) every now and then. But the choices were always theirs. Still, God knows they won’t see it that way. So he sets things up so that they can defeat him.

He lets them win. He wants them to win. They cannot defeat God, after all. It’s not God’s time, and Death is the only one who can claim God in the end, as the two embrace as friends and walk to the next existence. But the Winchesters need this, and so God allows it. A last gift, to the beings who have been such help, hope and inspiration to him.

With an eye for an eventual S16, 15x20 is written to be ‘an ending’ but also one that could easily be reframed as a bad dream.

For example...

Unfortunately, after Jack, suped up on a extra Grace God lent him, restores the Earth and expends all the Grace (”giving up the mantle of God so that their is no God, no plans, only Free Will”), and Dean, Sam and Jack head back to the Bunker to regroup and gather the ingredients to do the spell to rescue Castiel from the Empty, they’re jumped by monsters who are angry with how much God has fucked with them on behalf of the Winchesters. 15x20 is all a djinn dream Dean is trapped in.

16x01 is Dean waking himself up from the djinn dream, Sam and Jack escaping their own monsters, and then the end of 16x01 is Dean saying something about waking Castiel up from his own dreams in the Empty. The rest of S16 sees the boys save Castiel, reunite with Eileen, start a monster-hunting Bobby Singer/Men of Letters-esque organisation, Dean and Castiel getting together and getting married on Valentine’s Day, Jack getting to live a normal life, going to school, making friends, etc.

If their is no S16 ever (which would be criminal), then 15x20 makes no sense, unless it is plainly a recount of an old, hopeless ending written by God. However you spin it, 15x20 is not the way it seems (like owls).

All things being said, God is an antagonist, but he’s not evil. He’s an asshole, sure, but he never once worked against the Winchesters, never bet against them, never tried to erase or end them. He wanted them to win. He wanted to see the fruits of free will be love, second chances, hope, forgiveness, healing, and happiness, not just betrayal, pain, selfishness, jealousy, disappointment, and hopelessness.

Why is the ending he shows Becky ‘hopeless’? Because God is. He has spent his long existence losing his most loved family members. Amara, Lucifer. How can things end well for God, when they can’t even end well for humans? But Sam and Dean defy the script, again and again. They surprise God, defying the statistics, defying the hypotheses, throwing the experiment into disarray. Giving God hope. Sam and Dean were okay. Dean and Jack were okay. If God had a romantic love, he would find hope from Dean and Castiel being okay. But when God wrote the book he showed Becky, he was writing what he thought would happen. In the end, surely, not even Dean can be enough to hold Sam and Cas and Jack together. But in the end, as we see, as God sees, he is proven wrong and he’s happy to be wrong. He’s hopeful. And he can leave Dean, Sam, Castiel and Jack, and all the angels and all the humans, to rule the Earth and the Heavens. He doesn’t need to learn anything more from them, so he heads to the Empty, with Amara, with Lucifer, with Death (Billie or not, Death is there for God in the end), and they can all depart for a better existence of their own.

If you read all of this, thanks! I eagerly anticipate watching the remaining 10 seasons so I can come back and edit the heck outta this, but until then, if y’all have any thoughts, I’d be interested to hear them~

TLDR: God is a morally bankrupt scientist and the Winchesters are his guinea pigs, but he’s not evil and he does love his guinea pigs, even if he could really treat them nicer.

#supernatural #spn #dean winchester #sam winchester #jack kline #castiel #god #chuck #amara #lucifer #mary winchester #destiel #deancas #this is what i get for living on spn tumblr in a post s15 world while rewatching s5 and having memories ranging from hq to 8bit about s1-s11 #be kind i haven't finished my rewatch/finished the show so i probably have stuff wrong #what if god isn't evil just has no inherent moral compass because he has to teach himself everything #and he's taken to using the winchesters as his guinea pigs/life counsellors

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sanoiro · 3 years

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Lucifer Meta: “Choices”

“Choice is a funny thing…-“

Those were Dad’s words not mine back in 3x26. Before P2 dropped I was always saying that episode should be considered one of the core episodes if we wanted to understand S5 and Dad as a whole.

“Give someone different options, different circumstances, will they themselves end up different?” -Dad in 3x26

Lucifer S5 P2 spoilers ahead (I will add more screenshots later on)

I always liked the idea of Lucifer having a choice although his vulnerability theory of mine back in S2 was born out of a different thought.

But angels self-actualise however that applies to wings, a face and powers. In Michael’s case it was his posture as broken as he felt. Otherwise how we could explain that only he tried to urge Chloe on killing him but was rather docile when he believed he would face an immediate death.

Now what we didn’t know is that Gods also self-actualise. Therefore it is a genetic trait if you like. So let’s take this concept when we study Lucifer.

Lucifer has made his own choices over the years and the choices he made were the ones that brought us to the events of S5. However something doesn’t add up. Like yes, he chose that face in Hell because of his shame and how he viewed himself. Lucifer admitted it in 4x08 and Dad confirmed it as well in 5x11. So what is the two things amiss? Well one mostly throughout the series? His glowing red eyes.

The majority of the fanfiction out there express his eyes as an evidence of his Devilness, a connection to Hell while I believed for a very long time it was a manifestation of him being the Lightbringer but what does that constitutes?

Back in S2 Mum constantly calls Lucifer her ‘Lightbringer’, Lucifer lights up Azrael’s blade alone fleetingly when angry at his mother in Trip to Stabby Town. When the Medallion of Life is put on the blade his pain over Chloe flames it up for several seconds before it stops. Only when Lucifer assembles the sword, the medallion and the binding element, also known as Amenadiel’s jewelry. But there is again something amiss. Lucifer does flame it up in 2x18 but Mum’s words suggested that with all the pieces gathered she could do it herself. In a sense it is how Michael did it. No lightbringing power needed but what is that power?

I’m sure you remember back the finale of S3 where Lucifer’s face is licked by fire, his Devil face shows and his eyes glow red. Cain then agrees with Lucifer that ‘You cannot escape what you are’ moving forward in 5x16 Lucifer says I love you to Chloe and he is set on fire very much like he did in S3. Then we see a light we have associated mostly with Mum and Chloe wakes up.

So let’s think of this.

Lucifer apparently since his birth is known as the Lightbringer for no apparent reason. He lit the stars sure but only Mum and Dad are adamant on calling him that the only two beings in the universe that were omnipotent and above all? Omniscient. But they had a pitfall. Not even Mum could see she would be sent to Hell. That leads us to believe that there are choices which lead to as Uriel said to ‘patterns’. Different choices, different patterns. A thousands paths we can take but we cannot which one eventually will be taken and probably Dad and Mum held an optimism.

So let’s assume that when it came to Lucifer they knew one thing. That he had the ability to become a God - perhaps that is why Mum searched for him as he was also a key on changing things, if he became God then essentially she had won but she knew his potential. Now that’s another interesting thing…. Potential.

Dad in S5 tells Ella that the darker the darkness the brighter the light. In Lucifer, Dad mournfully notes that his son has so much light it blinds even him (aka Lucifer). Perhaps what we as perceived as unseen darkness -even him- is, in reality, a blinding light. Like a torch, you have no idea how to adjust your eyes to and everything seems like it's not light but darkness. So Lucifer had to go from being blinded by his own light to target it outwards in order to light the room. That was his potential.

Lucifer’s potential for goodness had to be harvested as was his ability to love. He liked humanity, respected them to a point, loathed them to another. Still does actually. But here is the thing. Potential think of Lucifer like a piece of coal or a battery whatever suits you best. Coal can be used to start a low grade fire that can spread from there but by itself it is but a black piece of nothing. So what if what we witnessed in the past five seasons was Lucifer being a slowly burning coal?

Let’s go back to Pops in S1. Lucifer is vulnerable when he takes Chloe out of the flaming restaurant and although he was burned he managed exceptionally well. In S4 he gets out of the exploding building albeit Chloe is far away and his clothes are not burned… Now let’s go to 5x10. Funny if you think that Lucifer manages to stop the chemist flame from burning which is weird as yes he stops the oxygen source to the flame so it us put out but two things happen. One his sleeve gets burned but it is also put out once the flamer does. Lucifer blames it on the polyester mix when we know he does not wear any and if he does it should have spread more.

If Lucifer was completely invulnerable then his suit would have been fine like it was in S4. Sure we have seen bullets not hurt him but have an issue with his clothes but to quote 4x02, it’s all about fire not the suit-superman effect.

Now in 3x23 Lucifer realises that Chloe does not need him but she choose to have him in her life and as such he is willing to leave his 2x12 miracle knowledge behind. In 5x06 Chloe talks about vulnerability which is based on a choice of Lucifer to be vulnerable around her. But with that choice to forward their relationship in 5x07 Lucifer is also making the choice subconsciously to expose himself to her emotionally and physically. At that point that choice stops his vulnerability probably because there is nothing to fear from her anymore. His vulnerability per 5x10 made him felt something he self actualised physically the vulnerability he felt but when she accepted him in her heart and stared a physical relationship his exposed himself differently emotionally.

Therefore Lucifer is still by choice vulnerable to Chloe but not physically as now he is in a healthier place. He opens up to her he is giving a conscious choice to be vulnerable to her while his body stops this stress induced self actualisation -perhaps- of being physically vulnerable. When he is hurt he shows it, he tells her what is going on even if it takes some time. Perhaps at the kitchen at her apartment Chloe didn’t draw blood from his body but certainly did from his soul and he allowed that.

When Mum in S2 said that Chloe was the key she was correct but not for lighting up the flaming sword but lightening up Lucifer. Lucifer needed to reach the point of choosing to be emotionally vulnerable around her and realising he was capable of love and that he loved Chloe, loved humanity.

In 5x16 when Lucifer is starting to burn up, most I’m sure went back to Michael’s words of Lucifer burning to the crisp if he went to Heaven as he was banned. But here is the thing Lucifer made a sacrificial move like the kid in 509 did for the family business. The ring simply bought him time. Lucifer left Heaven but I do not believe he was banned from there or at least I believe that Heaven had a safety net. We saw that even Gods have limitations so let’s think of this:

If Lucifer had listened to Mum and went to heaven the ring would have bought him some time but eventually he would have been either expelled or died(?). Again there are many things to consider here:

-What does it mean to be a God? Is it about power? Is it about being a Creator? Is it about the choice to become a carer? Lucifer became a carer in Hell albeit a rather unconventional one and as we may see things will change.

-Dad and Lucifer have a common thing they love humans and humanity in general. No other angel aside from Amenadiel and only due to his son does do far and in Amenadiel’s case it is not unconditional.

-The fact Lucifer was willing to be God not just for Chloe but because the system was rigged and he loved humans like Daniel and thought that he had to protect the innocent or at least provide a chance for a second chance.

-The song in the end when Lucifer is presented as a God, we listen to the Klergy sing that in a sense it was always mean to be.

I know I have been all over the place but let’s return to the whole lightbringer Lucifer now. So remember Dad when he gets angry. He is meteorologically inclined. In the family dinner and not only there we hear a thunderstorm rumbling close by, lighting ominously lit up the room in a way that Lucifer’s eyes light up in a very eerie yet calm way in many instances, in Le Mec’s case included.

There was always something brewing in Lucifer so when he gets to Heaven, with the same attributes Dad had and to a very different level, Lucifer experiences a metamorphosis. Now Mum and Dad didn’t have physical bodies but Lucifer did. Dad as well Mum in S5 provided us with a manifestation of a human body but they were not born in a flesh like celestial body like their kids did. So when Lucifer gets in heaven he is experiencing what Mum did in S2, he bled light but in a place of souls not on the earthly plane.

Again Lucifer’s body changes but he is not a ‘flesh sack’ as Mum puts it like Charlotte’s body was in S2 for Mum. He is still Lucifer that’s still his body but when Lucifer gets to Heaven he makes a choice again not just a throne to save humanity but his own life which of course leads us to the passage of the Revelation.

In the end, Chloe was the key and fuel for the coal to lit up to a full blazing fire. Not bad :) I mean he lit up Heaven long before he took off his ring ;)

“I choose you, I love you”

Michael, the Dragon & the ‘Virgin Mary’. But that’s a meta for another time, one that I have written in the S&S but will be updated for S6.

“And no matter how badly you want to nudge them in the right direction You know they need to find it on their own.”

#lucifer season 5 #lucifer spoilers #lucifer speculation #lucifer s5p2 #lucifer meta

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mittensmorgul · 4 years

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I've watched season 11 again, and I have a question if you're willing to answer. In season 5, Cas was very disappointed about learning God was basically a "dead beat dad," as Dean called it. But when Cas had an opportunity to talk to Chuck, he didn't seem all that interested in talking to him or even asking a question or two. Why do you think they never had Cas interact with Chuck as a son talking to his father when it was such a huge deal for Cas in season 5?

Hi there! I’m happy to talk about this, because honestly I was personally GLAD that Cas treated Chuck the way he did in s11.

(A/N: I was halfway through writing this when my power went out last night, so now that everything is back on I’m gonna see if I remember wtf I was even talking about... if this goes sideways halfway through, blame Potomac Edison)

Cas had already realized long before exactly who and what Chuck was. I mean, not that Chuck was actually God, but that God and “His Plan” was always a load of BS.

Chuck left the angels a lot of conflicting information, and not a lot in the Free Will and Critical Thinking arena. I was just thinking about season 6, and this sort of feeds into a lot of the same distinction between Cas and the rest of the angels. My personal line of thinking earlier this evening was this line in 6.20:

CASTIEL I'm doing this for you, Dean. I'm doing this because of you. DEAN Because of me. Yeah. You got to be kidding me. CASTIEL You're the one who taught me that freedom and free will -- DEAN You're a freakin' child, you know that? Just because you can do what you want doesn't mean that you get to do whatever you want!

Major Tangent Warning, because I gotta write out what I was thinking earlier in order to explain why I am So Pleased with Cas and his reaction to Chuck in s11, which I think of as abject disdain. This is key to everything Cas had learned, to all of his growth as a person up to that point.

What Dean tells Cas here is in direct contradiction to what Raphael’s self-stated motive in restarting the apocalypse was. Also from 6.20:

RAPHAEL You rebelled - against God, heaven, and me. Now you will atone. We'll start by freeing Lucifer and Michael from their cage. And then we'll get our show back on the road. CASTIEL Raphael...No. The Apocalypse doesn't have to be fought! RAPHAEL Of course it does. It's God's will. CASTIEL How can you say that?! RAPHAEL Because it's what I want. CASTIEL Well, the other angels won't let you. RAPHAEL Are you sure? You know better than anyone, Castiel. They're soldiers. They weren't built for freedom. They were built to follow.

Raphael is just doing “whatever he wants,” in the way Dean was trying to convince Cas NOT to. Because if Dean learns anything in s6, it is the cosmic cost of his own actions. Think 6.11, and the lessons he learns having to play Death for a day. As much as Dean tries to work around the Bigger Picture of the Universe, he does understand that there is a right and a wrong, and that some things are worth fighting or even dying for, but the cost might sometimes just be too great. And unleashing all the souls in purgatory on the planet seems like just a different sort of apocalyptic level of bad... like putting out a fire with a flamethrower.

Cas had to make a choice here. He’d chosen his path every step of the way, wrestled with each decision he’d had to make over the previous year leading up to that point, but he’d passed the point of no return, and his direct prayer to Chuck went unanswered, and he never got a sign whether he was doing the right thing or not.

I’ve argued in the past that he absolutely DID get a sign, in the form of Dean telling him to stop in 6.20. But Cas dismissed him, out of pride, out of hubris, out of desperation to do the one thing he believed could give him the power to stop Apocalypse 2.0, save Heaven, and also save Dean in the process, since Dean would be back on the radar to be Michael’s vessel if Raphael succeeded in breaking him out of the Cage.

And here’s the really tangenty part of the tangent: it just made me think of all the nitwits who won’t wear a mask in public, or follow social distancing rules because MAH FREEDUMB, you’re impinging on MAH LIBERTY. BUT THE CONSTITUTION!

Because yes, we can do what we want, but we can’t do WHATEVER we want when our actions are harmful to others!

The framers of the Constitution could never have foreseen a pandemic like this. But any SOCIETY where people must coexist needs to put some constraints on liberty, and the framers absolutely DID understand this.

They also couldn’t have foreseen air travel, but we have established rules about this. They couldn’t have foreseen cars and traffic lights and interstate highways, and yet we have rules that govern our behavior there, as well. Air traffic controllers, stop signs, speed limits-- we don’t just have the right to drive 90 mph through a school zone and run through red lights. And yet nobody yells BUT MAH FREEDUMB! when they get a speeding ticket.

Polite society ALSO must include *MY* right not to be killed because someone else decided that traffic laws didn’t apply to them, see?

Basically, wear your mask and shut up about it, whiny pissbabies. This is what is required of you to live in a functioning society. You do NOT have the right to infect others with a potentially deadly illness. Full stop.

But back to Cas and the Leviathan infection he’s about to infest the entire planet with...

Dean was effectively giving him the “wear a mask, nitwit” speech, but on a cosmic level.

And Cas had to live with the consequences of his choice, with the GUILT and DEPRESSION that resulted. And he spent the next few seasons desperately trying to make up for what he’d done, to atone and do whatever he could to redeem himself-- to Dean. He’d tried to redeem himself to Heaven, but the more he eventually began to learn about Humanity, the less affinity he felt for his fellow angels, and for Chuck’s construct of Heaven.

Because back to another previous point, Chuck effectively left the angels two opposing sets of instructions: orders to watch over the earth and act as shepherds to humanity, and orders to bring on the apocalypse at any cost. Can’t do both, truly. Even Naomi will eventually say, right before Metatron stabs her in the head, that she (and the other angels) forgot that their true mission was to protect and defend humanity, and she didn’t know when or why that ever changed.

FINALLY back to the point! WHEEE!

Basically, Cas has, in the six years between s5 and s11, experienced “god-ness” from every angle, experienced his own guilt over what he now believes were misguided actions, that sometimes Humanity has a better answer, and there are some things that just aren’t worth it in the long run.

Mostly, he’s realized just HOW deadbeat Chuck has always been. And the revelation that Chuck had actually been God all along? Saw their pain and suffering at trying to STOP the apocalypse all those years before? KNEW FULL WELL that Sam, Dean and Cas were doing everything they could to try and save the world from basically the entirety of Heaven and Hell, who were plotting the destruction of humanity and most of creation with it. I mean... Cas spent s5 begging for God’s help, to save the world, to convince Michael and Lucifer that they did not have to destroy humanity, and Chuck... had done LESS than nothing. He’d sat there and ghoulishly watched the entire mess unfold like a bad tv show... oh wait... :’D

By s11, Lucifer had not reached that point that Cas had. Lucifer had many other issues, having been rejected and locked up for most of existence, and even HE had been the one in 5.22 to try and talk Michael out of enacting Chuck’s battle plan. Lucifer never had the experiences Cas did (and despite being given every opportunity to have them over the next few seasons after s11, he continues to reject those experienced at every turn anyway, only serving to highlight the difference between Cas and, honestly, most of the rest of the angels). Lucifer had a personal need for a direct apology from Chuck for everything he’d been put through-- starting with taking on the original Mark and ending with the cage.

Of course Lucifer didn’t get an honest apology, because in the end, it was all just a theoretical production to Chuck. He had never apologized, in any of his universes, to any of the beings he created. And he never would. And on some level, Cas-- via his experiences, what he himself had already come to understand about God and creation-- already understood this about Chuck.

Cas... didn’t care about him anymore. He cared about HUMANITY, about Chuck’s CREATION. The creator might be a worthless jerk, but what came out of his creation is a thing of ultimate beauty. Humanity, love, free will, and the beauty of the universe is what ends up saving the world in 11.23, so I’ve chosen to accept this read of Cas and his relationship and opinions of Chuck. Because it’s perfectly in line with the “moral” of season 11.

Plus it’s just so personally satisfying to me watching each individual character’s reactions to Chuck, and understanding how that aligns with all of their personal arcs.

Dean: brought the “how could your forsake your creation” of a broken-hearted son who has finally seen the truth. something he worked out YEARS ago between himself and his own father, so it didn’t come with that particular personal baggage and didn’t completely break him in the process (as it may have done with Cas had Chuck revealed himself, say, in 7.01...)

Sam: brought his life-long hope that God was real, his faith in God’s inherent “goodness,” did the Chuck Fanboy for a bit before seeing Chuck a lot more clearly. He was able to relinquish his idol worship of Chuck as the Savior of Humanity.

Cas: had brought his experience of Humanity and Godhood, the entire spectrum of Creation that he had experienced for himself and grown through. Cas, for all his mistakes, had never stopped TRYING to do the right thing, never stopped doing everything in his power to save humanity and creation from every cosmic threat, while Chuck himself had only hidden away and watched from the sidelines, when he’d ALWAYS had the power to make everything good and right and allow the Winchesters their peace. Honestly, what BETTER response than to treat Chuck like a bit of gum stuck to his shoe?

Metatron: who had basically spent s9 trying to turn himself into Chuck Lite, literally plagiarizing his Supernatural novels to create his own origin story as the new God, and failed miserably. What other angel could truly confront Chuck, writer to writer, and call him out for His Story? Even fallen as low as he could go, Metatron understood first-hand the responsibility of The Cosmic Author in ways even Cas couldn’t, because narrative symmetry. Metatron was always about the Word, as God’s Scribe. He was a bad copy of the original with the names scratched out. He basically wrote the worst self-insert fanfic of all time. And that gave him the narrative space to confront Chuck about everything that Cas no longer had. Cas had long since rejected that role, sided with Humanity, and smashed Chuck’s Word. The original tablet-breaker.

Crowley: carried on Crowley-ing. Doing the best he could with what he had, and somehow miraculously BS’ing his way through.

Rowena: recognized the Biggest Power in the room and ingratiated herself to it for comfort and protection, and hopefully for a bit of power and security.

Billie: gosh she just stepped in at the 11th hour to annoy Chuck. :’D

But yeah, I’ve always been incredibly pleased that Cas basically ignored Chuck in s11. Good for him.

#spn 6.20 #spn 5.22 #spn 5.18 #spn 11.20 #spn 11.21 #spn 11.22 #spn 11.23 #spn 14.20 #castiel winchester #chuck's process #in the time of covid-19 #Anonymous

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katsidhe · 5 years

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Why isn’t Sam insane? 2/3: Mitigating Factors

Welcome to Part Two of my TED talk about Sam’s Sanity :D Refreshments are available in the lobby.

(Click Here for Part One, and the ask that prompted this.)

This isn’t a topic that can be covered neatly in a few hundred words, or a few thousand. I’m just gonna touch on a few things here: Sam’s coping methods, the amount of time he spent in Hell, and Cas’s polarizing fix in 7.17.

What are the mitigating factors keeping Sam on his feet?

In brief:

Lucifer’s diligence in keeping Sam recognizably Sam (see post 1);

The muffling effect of switching dimensions and timelines;

Death’s wall, however temporary;

A year of soullessness;

Cas’s s7 intervention;

Sam’s heavy-duty coping mechanisms and frankly alarming degree of compartmentalization, which is aided and abetted by all the previous factors (see post 3).

Sam’s a very internal type of guy, which is damn PERILOUS for someone who’s been through things as extreme and awful as he has. Luckily (?), Sam’s basically been built on dissonance, on hiding and separating and fracturing various spheres of his life and pieces of himself. He’s always been good at compartmentalization. Even so...why is he able to rope off his Cage trauma so effectively for several months in s7, into more or less one handy Hallucifer package?

Part of this is because his time in the Cage is already packaged differently. First by the nature of the memories themselves— they’re generally a bunch of mind-bendingly awful, time-dilated memories that took place in an inhuman dimension, in sort-of an alternate timeline while his soulless self was getting up to an entirely separate set of Earthly shenanigans. The Cage doesn’t slot neatly into Sam’s personal sense of human time and continuity. Second, both sets of memories were cordoned off and separated from him by Death’s wall for a number of months, before being set loose all at once in 6.22. That’s another factor making things easier. Third, his recent experience with the empathic disconnect and extreme pragmatism of his soullessness acts as, frankly, a really effective way to steel himself for an inundation of horror. Soulless!Sam himself was born from trauma and had been coping with what parts of the Cage he remembered; he’s basically given Sam a head start on that legwork.

But the trauma’s still there! Sam’s unique methods for compartmentalization still need to do the heavy lifting.

I have a lot more thoughts about that but this post got long; look out for a part three to come!

How long was Sam in the Cage?

Let’s talk timelines. I don’t think Sam spent millennia in the Cage. This is something I see discussed a lot. I know the calculation many people use for that conclusion comes from the time in s6 when a crack in Sam’s wall leaks out a few weeks’ worth of memories in a few minutes...but that evidence makes no sense, why in the world would traumatic sudden recall be 1:1 with how Hell time actually, physically operates?? It’s not like Sam literally went to Hell for a few minutes; he just got a bunch of stressful memories dumped on him all at once, that’s what “a few weeks” is meant to quantify: volume. There’s no reason to think the timeline would match up with the real physics of the place. Admittedly, it’s not a stupid idea to postulate that Hell works on the logic of “deeper” = more time dilation, but there’s no canon basis for this. Not to mention that I think six thousand years is several bridges too far even for the mitigating factors in play. Sam could conceivably still be functioning, but I think he’d be much less recognizable. ~120-180 years, while still absurdly long, is at least on the same order of magnitude of a human lifespan.

How much did Cas’s fix in “The Born-Again Identity” actually accomplish?

We know Cas shifting the burden in 7.17 didn’t solve everything. Sam still remembers the Cage; he’s obviously still very impacted by it even when it’s not the narrative focus; S8 Sam is quite different from s5 Sam. I view Cas’s bandaid fix as an analogue for getting Sam on the right meds/a short stay at a crisis facility that gets him back on his feet: the underlying problem is still very much present, but it’s not as acute and dangerous (no more hallucinations and no more literal psychosis), and Sam has been given tools (in the form of some type of mental muffling/emotional distance) to cope. I go back and forth on exactly what I think it is Cas DID. There was obviously a supernatural element to the way Sam’s illness was manifesting, in the sense that Sam couldn’t be sedated. Plus, it was a “transferable” condition. I sometimes am of the opinion that Cas extracted an infected fraction of Lucifer’s grace, but I’m not married to the idea... especially because I am firmly convinced that Hallucifer was 100% a construct of Sam’s creation, and I don’t like to muddy those waters too much.

I did think 7.17 was a disappointingly cheap ploy back in 2011; that’s when I started watching the show, and Sam’s struggles were a big draw for me. When it aired, I feared 7.17 would be used as an excuse to never address Sam’n’Lucifer again. But instead I was shown to be happily incorrect: Sam’s ongoing Luciferian issues have since been addressed in multiple ways, large and small (especially in s11-14), so I’m mostly satisfied with the fallout of 7.17.

#i speaks #sam and the cage #sam and lucifer #sam and trauma #7.17 #sam and coping mechanisms #sam and compartmentalization #sam and mental illness #I'm being very productive at work this week. veeeeery productive.#I Love This Topic

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frozen-delight · 5 years

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SPN Questions

Thanks for the mention, @demonsofhunting! 💕💕💕

1. When did you start watching Supernatural?

January 2014. (Part of the credit must go to Moffat and Gatiss, who made me desperate for a change of fandom. *g*)

2. Who is your favorite in TFW?

Dean. I fell in love with him before I’d watched a single episode of the show or seen a single picture of him - all thanks to the brilliant Of Ghosts and Men Sherlock/SPN crossover fic.

3. Who is your least favorite in TFW?

Cas, because he hasn’t had a purpose on the show for years now. SPN’s male version of a sexy lamp, only not quite so sexy what with all the weird grimacing going on lately.

4. Tag your top 5 Supernatural blogs.

@canonspngifs If you’re not following them, what are you even doing on Tumblr? *g*

@dustydreamsanddirtyscars Fabulous edits and meta with a wonderful eye for detail.

@hunenka Dean-centric content that doesn’t always toe the Dean!girl party line.

@thebratfarrar My biggest cinematography inspiration. <333

@whoeveryoulovethemost Their edits are to die for.

5. Who is your favorite character ( not including TFW)?

Crowley.

6. Who is your favorite woman in Supernatural?

It’s a tie between Sarah and Amara.

7. John or Mary?

John. One of the most complex, well-written characters of the entire show. I might not “like” like him, but I love good character writing.

8. What were your first opinions of Sam, Dean, Cas and Jack?

Formed while I read Of Ghosts and Men:

Sam: I’m supposed to like him more than I actually like him and I think I’d like him better if he didn’t take himself so seriously. (The fic was written by a diehard Sam!girl.)

Dean: OMG. He’s hilarious and heartbreaking, and there should be a Dean/Sherlock show on TV - they’ve got sizzling chemistry!

Cas: I wish he’d look more like Ben Whishaw. I’m not entirely sure what he’s doing here. Ah, the dangers of Cas ex machina...

Formed during the final seconds of the S12 finale:

Jack: What’s up with the eye special effects? And why was Alex made a series regular after like two seconds of screen time whereas Ruth and Sam still haven’t been granted that status?

9. What’s your favorite season?

Season 4, closely followed by Season 10.

10. What’s your least favorite season?

Once upon a time I’d have answered Season 7, but now it’s Season 12. (I also like S13 and S14 less than S7, but with all their faults those two seasons still seem like a big improvement from S12.)

11. Opinions on Destiel?

One ship among many, and not one of my current favourites. Unless when it’s written by @anactorya. <333

12. Do you believe Supernatural queerbaits?

Occasionally. Mostly, though, fans are queerbaiting themselves. Which, as Britta Lundin so brilliantly showed us, is what fans really want. *g*

13. Season 1 - 7 or 8 - 14?

Wouldn’t it make more sense to ask 1-5, 6-7, 8-11 or 12-14? Carver’s always been my favourite showrunner, so 8-11, followed by 1-5.

14. Favorite villain ( plot wise )?

Alistair.

15. Do you think they should end the Lucifer plot line?

They should have ended it at the end of S5.

16. Who do you think has gone through more trauma ( Sam, Dean or Cas )?

Really? What sort of question is that? Trauma isn’t a competition.

That being said, Cas doesn’t have the same emotional capacities to experience trauma as the Winchesters, what with being an angel and suffering from constant selective amnesia.

17. What’s your favorite Supernatural episode?

Always On the Head of a Pin. ❤ Other favourites include Reichenbach, What Is and What Should Never Be, Playthings, Scarecrow, Mystery Spot, The Monster at the End of this Book, Sex and Violence, Do You Believe in Miracles? and Road Trip.

18. Do you like case episodes?

I always used to be more of a mytharc person, but ever since S11 I find myself preferring the MotWs.

19. Who do you relate most to in TFW?

Dean. No surprise there. Though I also relate a lot to Sam with regards to his drive to quit hunting and do his own thing at the beginning of the show.

20. Why do you like Supernatural?

First and foremost because of the characters and their relationships. That’s what drew me in in the first place, and that’s what still keeps me watching even now.

21. If you could bring back one character and kill off another who would they be?

I’d bring back Crowley in exchange for every character that has been played or will be played by Mark P.?

Tagging @hunenka, @anactorya, @canonspngifs and anyone else who wants to do this.

#supernatural #ask meme #frozen rambles #potentially unpopular opinion

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why-this-kolaveri-machi · 6 years

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Notes on SPN 14.02

So! I saw 14.01 yesterday, which was for the most part, surprisingly, a blast, and since I have a bit of free time today I thought I’d keep a hold of the momentum and watch and liveblog 14.02 as well. I’ve heard it’s one of those Buckleming plot-a-paloozas, but I’ll try my best to provide semi-reasonable commentary instead of incoherent ranting.

Right. As always, typing this post up as I watch. SPOILERS for the episode ahead.

1. We start with a recap of last season’s finale, and Show, do you really want to remind us this many times about that wire-fight?

1.25. Show’s lore regarding possession has been dizzyingly inconsistent, but the more I think about it, the less sense it makes to me that Nick is alive? Because Nick couldn’t actually house Lucifer for very long in s5—he was deteriorating, which was why Lucifer needed Sam so urgently. The last we saw of Nick, he was dead/dying in a dingy room in Detroit, when Lucifer jumped ship to Sam. Even if Lucifer assumed Nick’s visage in the Cage and afterwards when he was brought back, Nick-the-person with Nick-memories and Nick-feelings isn’t there anymore.

1.255. So what does this mean? Like, if this was explained away sometime over the last two seasons--I’m very sorry, I really wasn’t paying a lot of attention to large chunks of them—please let me know. If there’s no explanation, then has Lucifer disappeared inside a Nick-construct? Did he use a loophole to escape the worst of the Archangel Blade right at the moment Dean plunged it into his side? Lucifer was “human” for a while in s13, iirc. Did he have enough “human” to hide behind and recover? And has he filled that human with the memories/personality of one of the humans he knew best? Is it because he spent centuries assuming Nick’s body in the Cage that he’s most comfortable being him here?

… I don’t know. Maybe I’m missing something obvious, but, hey, it’s fun to speculate.

2. We start off with people artfully tied up in an artfully derelict church illuminated artfully by artful lightning.

… *groans* I hope we aren’t getting a torture scene already.

2.25. Well, Michael’s certainly chirpier than he was last episode.

2.5. Is he trying to make new angel minions, is that it, by feeding them blood and his grace? Leaving aside the lack of creativity in the mechanism, the whole thing kind of makes a weird sense. Michael is looking for those with purity of purpose—among religious leaders (and refugees, apparently), angels, and then finally monsters—and rejecting those ‘poisoned’ by nuance and experience and supposed sin. After all, no being whose wants are even slightly more complex than ‘food’ is going to be a perfect follower.

It also plays into his assholey, self-righteous personality and, well, god-complex.

(Dean would’ve appreciated this quest for pure purpose.)

3. There’s a kind of sitcom-y vibe to this little expository scene: Bobby talks shit about angels only for Castiel to walk in with a quirked eyebrow; the group talks about Jack and Lucifer only for Jack to walk in and go, “hey, you talkin bout my father again?”

(these are the tiny ways I feel SPN is at cross-purposes with its own theme of ‘found family’. Everybody’s obsessed with blood relations, to the point that Lucifer and Jack are constantly referred to as ‘father and son’ when there is no need to bring that relationship up. Last year, even Castiel referred to Jack while talking to Lucifer as ‘your son’ without any prompting from Satan. Words are so powerful, and so revealing.)

3.45. Castiel “as you know, Bob”-ing is hilarious. Oh, Buckleming.

3.5. Um, not to dismiss or compare Castiel’s considerable trauma at the hands of Lucifer, but is anybody going to acknowledge even once that Sam, who appears to have taken the brunt of caring for Nick so far, is also going to have trouble looking into his abuser’s face??

4. Nick continues to make no sense to me.

(I like little touches like Castiel telling him that he needs to remind himself to eat.)

4.5. I kinda like this scene, sue me. It makes sense to me that Nick would obsess over and over again about how he could’ve let himself say yes to Lucifer, although Lucifer is as old as time and had all the power in that situation. The ‘monster’ bit is a little too on-the-nose for me, but I like it. Really drives home what an intimate, horrifying violation possession is and how scarred and twisted it can leave the survivor who spirals down a well of undeserved guilt and self-loathing.

I wish Sam was the one talking to him now, or was at least present. He’d talked in the previous scene about how Nick was only ‘housing’ and deserved a chance to rebuild his life, and that hard-earned generosity of spirit would’ve been a balm to all three of them, I think.

5. ETA on the TOD, Bobby? *sporfle* Seriously though, I love this role-reversal: usually it’s Bobby who’s rolling his eyes at SamnDean’s eff-bee-eye shenanigans.

5.25. Ah, but where this Bobby has become an expert now is in telling the difference between smiting patterns!

5.5. I wonder if trying to appear non-threatening is just Sam’s default whenever he meets with, uh, ‘civilians’.

6. I really, honestly hate that the Bunker just happens to have ‘lore books’ on whatever the hell random question they’re having that day. I just kinda hate the Bunker in general, now that I think about it.

6.25. But doesn’t that ‘human component’ (lol) make a Nephilim strong enough to take down even archangels?

6.5. As pep talks go, that wasn’t bad. A few notes:

a) there’s an earnestness to the words that I’m sure that Castiel learned from Sam.

b) I think this is the first time that Castiel—or anybody—has referred to the events of 8.23 as “The Great Fall”. It’s interesting that it’s already gotten a name among angelkind and that Castiel would call it that, given how close he was to the events that led to it.

c) I want to both laugh and cry at Castiel’s assertion that Sam and Dean were there for him after he lost his grace. He was mostly left to fend for himself, obviously, but there’s no space for that in a pep talk.

d) Sometimes it’s easy to forget that Jack is actually just only a year old. Asking him not to dwell on something so… immediate is a tall ask.

7. Ok, so that was a nice snappy little counterpart to Lucifer-talking-to-Sam-in-the-mirror from the s5 finale. I like how Michael is blunt and matter-of-fact while Lucifer relished in the moment, bragged about how he’d had Sam’s number all his life, and seduced him with violent revenge. This is nice.

I don’t know, guys, I’m really enjoying this episode so far!

8. Sooooo Lucifer is residing in some subconscious layer of Nick’s mind? Is this PTSD shaped by his possession? Is Lucifer bleeding through his own construct? Are we going to find that it was actually Nick who killed his own family? (I think we are.)

8.2. Castiel looking for residual Lucifer in Nick reminds me of when he was doing the same for Sam re: Gadreel, and that reminds me of Dean’s ‘teen mom’ joke from that episode and now I’m pissed off.

8.5. Nick is fascinating, but is he fascinating enough that I care about his little revenge sub-plot? Eh. Jury’s out. Plus I just can’t stand the actor anymore

9. Sam’s just kinda there to move the plot along. Give him some more character moments, episode!

10. Michael reminded me of Dean in the scene with the werewolf. I’m really not getting a capital P personality from Michael, though that may be due to a personal choice. Or maybe because Michael was never a distinct character to begin with, and this is far more noticeable when Ackles plays it and ‘Dean’ threatens to take over any minute.

Or going meta for a second—maybe Michael’s deliberately infusing some Dean into his persona. Possession isn’t simply putting a thing inside a box: both entities are influenced and informed by the other, but only one has all the power.

11. … ok, so my interest in this Nick subplot is rapidly decaying. Nick did it. He killed his family. It’s not a mystery.

11.5. The emotional dynamics of this scene… checks out, actually. Of course Nick is projecting all his rage on Castiel. And of course Castiel regrets destroying Jimmy Novak’s life the most. More than toeing the party line and being instrumental in almost bringing the Apocalypse about in s4; more than releasing the Leviathan; more than trusting Metatron in s8; more than killing his brethren, who’ve tortured him back and tried to kill him on more than one occasion. But Castiel has been both angel and human—both possessing and being possessed—long enough that he’s intimately aware of the devastation it leaves both within and without. And there are no excuses for the way he and other angels have done that damage—so carelessly, so casually. Even the most well-intentioned angels are deceptive and manipulative and give not a second thought about their hapless vessels. It’s a sign of Castiel’s growth and compassion that he recognises his responsibility in this and that he invokes Jimmy’s name with both reverence and regret. In all this shouting and crying that Show doesn’t acknowledge the deep-seated trauma of possession survivors, this is actually a great moment.

12. That werewolf leader looks familiar. Has the actor been on SPN before? He kinda reminds me of one of the leads on Suits.

12.5. That’s a lot of clunky dialogue, but Michael is basically confirming what I speculated in point 2. Cool.

13. How Jack managed to get away and find his grandparents is never explained, but that’s a familiar Buckleming trope—characters are put together in a scene without any regard to how it might connect to other scenes or how/why those characters might’ve gotten there.

13.2. That said, it’s kinda poignant that Jack, having lost his angelic powers, is now trying to understand the human side of his heritage. He’s trying his best to adapt to his situation; this one year old kid is more well-adjusted than most of the adults on this show.

13.5. Well, holy shit, Jack talking about Kelly to his grandparents is just… making me feel emotional in a way this show hasn’t made me feel in a long, long time. This Calvert kid is good.

13.6. It is bizarre that Kelly’s parents are mostly ok with not knowing Kelly’s whereabouts for over a year—I don’t think we ever found out what position exactly Kelly held in the President’s office, and I can picture them in a bit of denial by telling themselves the reason they haven’t heard from Kelly is because she is in the middle of super-secret government work. I don’t know! But it’s just about handwave-able though, and their scene with Jack is worth it.

14. Honestly, Castiel, how did he travel so far and for so long without you noticing? So much for “Don’t worry, Sam, I will babysit this defenceless creature.”

(Speaking of Sam, wheeeerrreee’s Saaaaammmm)

“I suppose there are worse ways to be human than to be kind.”

“Have you heard from Sam?”

I LOVE YOU, JACK.

14.5. No, actually, Dean wouldn’t want it any other way. He said as much when Gadreel took over Sam completely back in s9.

15. Shoo, Nick.

16. FINALLY MORE SAM. With only like 4 minutes of episode left. What, Show, did you think you spoiled us too much last episode with all that glorious, glorious Sam content?

16.25. And finally a bit of action! The rapid-fire editing is making my head hurt, though.

16.5. Soooooooooooooo Dean’s back? Obviously Michael is playing a long game here, but it says something about the show that they can’t keep Dean away for more than two episodes without getting the shakes. I honestly miss Sera Gamble and her desire to rattle the status quo: in s6, she kept the so-called ‘real’ Sam away for half the season, which gave us imo some of the best storytelling, characterisation and acting from both Padalecki and Ackles in the entire show. In s7 she took away all the Winchester markers: the Impala, weird motel rooms, Bobby’s house. Of course, after she left the show settled back into a familiar rut (substituting Bobby’s house with that thrice-damned Bunker). I wish the show would take risks with these two again. s9 and the beginning of s10 were so very promising but there was no follow-through.

I guess they want to MotW fillers for a few episodes and that would be weird without SamnDean SamnDeaning it in the Impala, but Show, why don’t you just say ‘fuck it’ and try weird on for size? What do you have to lose? I mean, seriously?

17. Nick’s the murderer—called it!

18. This wasn’t terrible, you guys. 95% of the episode was just people sitting around having conversations, the dialogue was clunky, ideas derivative, scenes progressed without any rational links between them, the pacing was wonky, and there was too much exposition. But the emotional beats were solid and the set up is reasonably intriguing. I’ve seen far, far worse BuckLeming episodes.

Pacing is a real issue in this season, though. And Michael is not remotely intimidating as a threat.

#supernatural #season 14 #spn spoilers #sam winchester #castiel #michael #jack kline #meta #unpopular opinion: this ep was... pretty ok

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missjackil · 7 years

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Glad I Came When I Did...

I came to Tumblr in July of last year, I had only been watching SPN since the March before, but I had watched everything from the beginning and was all caught up, and well into my rewatches when I got here, and I am so thankful that was the case. When I got here, and saw what many of you say about the show, characters, writers and show runners, I wondered what show you all are watching. For one thing, the show wasnt “better” in the Kripke era, it was just different for the first 3 seasons, but that was just laying the foundation for what the show was building up to. Sure, it was nice to have just Sam and Dean in every episode and not muddied down with side characters, but this show literally being an epic, needed to get bigger. It wouldnt have lasted 13 years and counting,if it just stayed Sam and Dean hunting shifters and vampires. Season 4 changed everything, and keep in mind this was Kripke, not Gamble or Carver, we got Cas and other angels, it got darker and more personal when Dean went to Hell and was tortured and ended up breaking the first seal, and Sam was drinking demon blood and became addicted, and ultimately raising Lucifer, we learned that that the brothers were part of a big Heavenly plan, and even had Gospels written about them. The great battle of Armageddon would be fought by them! Had the story not exploded like that, the show never would have gotten a 6th season. So many of you just said “It never should have gotten a 6th season anyway” but youd sit there and whine for the next 2 years about how badly it ended. Sam sacrifces himself to save the world and ends up alone in the dark? Dean ends up with a chick he hardly knows? How does this make a good ending to such a great story? Next, Dean is not an abusive masogynist, and Sam is not the pseudo-female that bends to Dean’s every whim. I’ll agree that Dean hit Sam too much in the early seasons (remember? back with it was “so much better”?) but Sam is a big guy and it was always a fair fight whenever he faught back, he just chose not to fight sometimes. Not because he’s afraid of Dean, but because its Sam’s nature to just not want to fight, Those of you who treat Sam like a battered wife from the 50s, or Stockholm syndrom gone wild, are just really projecting your political agenda on a show that wishes to not take part in ANY political agenda. Sam and Dean fight. In any drama with brothers, they fight. Since early S7, Dean hasnt hit Sam without being under a supernatural influence, and no one seems to want to accept that that part of Dean has changed. Why? Because youre putting Sam in the battered wife position, where you would tell a battered wife, that the abusive husband wont ever change. Not where he SHOULD be, as a big, strong man, fully capable of kicking Dean’s ass if he wants to, but he doesnt because he loves Dean, and knows Dean loves him, even if he hasnt always known the right way to show it.

On that same topic, Sam is not the female architype of this story, though sometimes a male/female formula is used. Normally however, Sam and Dean are Butch and Sundance or Luke Skywalker and Han Solo the way Kripke created these characters. Sam has feminine qualities, and so does Dean, but all men do, and all women have some masculine qualities.... thats just being realitic. I am just as tired of hearing about Dean’s “Toxic masculity” as I am about hearing that Sam is a woman with a penis... well, we’ve never been shown he has one, so a woman with facial hair? I dont know.... but feminize either of them in your fan fic if thats what youre into, but don’t write it into the show, when that’s not what the show is telling us. Neither Sam nor Dean are bisexual, and I dont care if Sam has never said he’s straight, or if he sumonned a male crossroads demon, or Dean and Cas breathed the same air, or Dean made a mix tape. After 12 yrs, if neither of these boys have canonically dated a man, we can safely assume they never will. Even if Wincest was canon, it wouldnt mean they have any interest in men aside from each other. Sam gets blamed for a lot, he does, but not everything all the time and Dean never blamed Sam for anything (after S4) that he didnt blame himself for too. in S5 Fallen Idols, Dean reminds Sam that he broke the first seal, and tells Sam he couldnt have known killing Lilith was a bad thing, In S8 when Dean tells Sam what things he could confess, he isnt throwing blame on him, but acknowledging that these werent good things, and may need confessing.... ignorance is no excuse for the law right? And Dean puts blame on them both for releasing the Darkness. In my time of watching this show, free from Tumblr, never once did Sam come off as stupid, evil, or less important than Dean. Either in the show or where the writing was concerned. Dean may asstert himself as the boss or the leader, and most of the time, he is the leader, and thats alright, theyre a team, it doesnt minimize Sam at all, he has said basically he prefers to follow because it’s easier than leading, but he certainly can lead when necessary. Dean is the infantry and Sam is the tank. Thats not making one greater than the other, thats stratagy. But as far as being Sam’s boss, look again.... Dean barks orders at Sam sometimes, but Sam gives orders subtly, he tells Dean to stop, he stops, he gives him a bitch face, he stops, he puts his hand out, Dean doesnt get cake, he says “dont kill him” Dean doesnt kill him, Sam flashes puppydog eyes and gets basically whatever he wants. Sometimes Dean defies Sam, and sometimes Sam defies Dean... see that? The narative does not favor Dean over Sam. Again, I state that Sam has never looked weak or stupid or habitually wrong in my time of watching. A few times Dean says “Im always right” but that doesnt mean he is written to be always right. Its just a Dean thing. Dean is not the “fav” of the writers because he has more speaking lines either. Sam is a quiet character, and since Jared isnt comfortable with long monologues, that works out pretty good. Sam has more personafications than Dean, more pain and affliciton... this isnt “HEY WE HATE SAM SO LETS MAKE HIM SUFFER!! HAHAHAHA!!” This is showcasing how well Jared acts pain, or takes on a different personality. This doesnt put Dean/Jensen down, his strong points are comedic parts, making long dialogue not sound boring, and showing full emotion while still being able to speak clearly. Put these exceptional talents together and it makes for 2 awesome main characters that are defined individuals and not mirrors of each other, and yet they stay similar enough to be believable brothers, best friends, and soulmates. I dont begrudge anyones opinion on anything It’s yours, you have it, and I respect it, but it appears that a lot of you are wasting your time on a show you hate, that goes against everything you stand for, and treats your favorite actor/character like a meaningless extra, and sadly, some are following you and theyre not having their own experience, they’re living yours. I cant tell you how often I hear someone hasnt watched a certain episode, or a certain season because Tumblr people hated it, so they thought it not worth it. and I have to explain that Tumblr people hate everything, and mostly wont ever be happy with the show unless whatever ship they ship becomes canon, which none of them will. So may I suggest, lighten up. take the show at face value, dont sit there, arms crossed, phone in hand waiting to meta on something you want to be there that isnt, and just laugh and love and cry with the rest of us :)

#supernatural #my meta #stop finding reasons to hate that arent even there

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bushlaboo · 7 years

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if you haven’t, you should (part xxv)

Twenty-fifth installment of my Olicity-centric Arrow fanfiction recommendations, parts: I, II, III, IV, V, VI,VII, VIII, IX, X, XI, XII, XIII, XIV, XV, XVI, XVII, XVIII, XIX, XX, XXI, XXII, XXIII, & XXIV.

Breaking News by thatmasquedgirl. My talented and brilliant wifey’s A-Team inspired AU. I don’t have words for how much I love @thatmasquedgirl’s newest gem of a tale. It is PERFECTION and I will fight anyone who feels differently. GO READ IT RIGHT NOW.

My True Love Gave To Me by callistawolf. Another bit of excellence by @callistawolf in the vein of her delightfully cheesy romantic Christmas movie fic Let Your Heart Be Light; this time inspired by the Lifetime Christmas movie, The Spirit of Christmas. Visiting her mother during the holiday season Felicity Smoak finds herself staying in the famously haunted Verdant House and she’s surprised to learn that the fabled ghost actually exists. Can she help the trapped spirit of Oliver Queen? Also on tap from Calli is her sequel to ready for the fall, all eyes on you – Oliver and Felicity are finally together, but will the appearance of Slade Wilson end their new relationship before it has the chance to truly begin?

welcome to your life (there's no turning back) series by loony_lovegood. Slow build Arrow/Batman crossover verse where Felicity Smoak is Bruce Wayne’s sister. Right now @babblekween is building the world of Felicity's past and it brilliant and wonderful. If you’re not reading series you are missing out!

There's a Machine Where My Heart Should Be by writewithurheart. I am not even sure how to categorize this AU – save for everyone is a villain in and Earth 2-eqse environment – even that doesn’t really capture the awesome and compelling verse that @writewithurheart has created. I AM DYING FOR THE NEXT UPDATE!!!

Girl's Night Out Therapy by BstnStrg13. An Arrow/Lucifer crossover one-shot where the Tribe (Chloe, Maze, Ella and Linda) adopt (sort of) one Felicity Smoak whose visiting LA. [Not exactly a traditional Olicity fic, but I love Lucifer and this tale is too good not to rec.]

Let's try our very best to fake it by mogirl97. Olicity spy AU. Paired up on an ARGUS mission agents Oliver Queen and Felicity Smoak will have to confront their past if they have any hope of succeeding at their current assignment. Also from @mogirl97 a new bodyguard AU, Keep It Professional. Felicity Smoak isn’t happy about her parents getting her a full-time bodyguard but John Diggle is certain Oliver Queen is the right man for the job.

if enigma could unravel by AlexiaBlackbriar13. The latest update to @alexiablackbriar13's Celestial Devotion (aka Angel!Oliver) verse. Oliver with Baby Sara in this series kills me, in the best way possible.

Call It a Family by dettiot. A series of interconnected one-shots picking up after It Runs in the Family as @dettiot gets ready to treat us to a full on follow-up fic in the Felicity Stark verse.

Monsters in the Dark by somethingelseornothingatall. Arrow S1 AU where Felicity Smoak has the ability to see people’s guardian spirits – Oliver’s is quite sassy – and how things unfold differently because of this. I am so not doing this fic justice with this description. This story is so much fun and chocked full of delightful humor. READ IT!

The Strong Do Not Always End Up On Top by GodsFool. A/O/B & Mob AU. Felicity Smoak has passed as a Beta all her life, but when a little bout of kidnapping stops her from taking her suppressants and her SOS message accidentally brings her matched Alpha to her rescue can the reluctant hacker make peace with the fact that Bratva Captain Oliver Queen is her match?

Another Kind of Island by Emmilyne. Canon-Divergent sort of A/O soulmate tale; having caught the attention of Futura Oliver and Felicity are pulled into an experiment that not only changes their relationship, but their very genetics. WHY DID THIS STORY HAVE TO ON HIATUS @emmilynestill???? It’s so fabulous.

Christmas and other risky ventures by Jules_Ink. Mostly S5 canon compliant tale, Oliver Queen goes on his own Christmas Carol-like journey thanks to Meta with time travel abilities.

Fifty bucks says by entersomethingcleverhere. A no-Island Arrow AU. When aspiring chef Oliver Queen gets a new roommate, his friends and family are quick to make bets on how long it will last. None of them knew how to account for the odds of Felicity Smoak though. Fluffy goodness ya’ll!

Oliver Dearden Series by oyhumbug. AU where Oliver retreated to life in a rural town after returning from the island and proves that Oliver and Felicity will always find each other. There is also FF#52: Opposites Attract, a gorgeous little politically bent AU.

Story Developing by Izzyface. An AU that explores how Arrow would be different if Tommy had lived after the Undertaking and Oliver and Laurel ran off and got married. Not a traditional Olicity tale, but so far, really good with tons of potential.

what's a little history (between you and I) by sarcastic_fina. AU verse where Felicity is Felicity Merlyn, and has a history with the Queen family; after being sent a way at a young age she comes back to Starling after the events of the Undertaking (another fic with Tommy alive – which is how it should have been dammit!). It is so exciting to see @sarcasticfina updating Arrow fic again.

The way you make me feel (I call it love) by smkkbert. Escort AU. Felicity Smoak hires escort Oliver Queen, uncertain if she’ll take advantage of the special services he offers, but as their relationship teeters between professional and something more, not just their hearts are at risk. There is only one more chapter left in @smkkbert's tale.

So this is totally off topic, but I have fallen in love with Timeless and ship Wyatt and Lucy. I’ve just begun to dip my toe into Timeless fic, but I found when you're in the darkness, only the blind can see by aredburn and wanted to share with you all. Also, I’d like to officially commission a crossover fic between Timeless and Arrow because I need hearteyed Wyatt and Lucy meeting hearteyed Oliver and Felicity.

#olicity fanfiction #olicity fic #olicity #arrow #fanfic recommendations #get reading folks #timeless #timeless fic #lyatt

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mittensmorgul · 5 years

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MoC anon again, hi! (also, eek, sorry about those two hours you lost) i think sam’s history with anger issues is actually kinda WHY he would handle it better, because he’s been practicing controlling it his whole life. (and i think he’s a lot better at it in s11 than he was in s5, ya know?) whereas, like you said, dean builds walls to keep the bad OUT, but he tends to act on emotion a lot more than sam, and his emotions are more explosive, and a lot less regulated. 1/2

(and while dean works very hard to hide his softer emotions, he’s never been particularly bothered with showing his anger.) i just can’t picture sam losing control the same way dean did. not saying that he wouldn’t lose control at all, of course, it’s gonna be messy either way, and obviously sam is not a paragon of mental health, but he has experience controlling the “darkness” inside him in a way dean never did 2/2

Hi there! and yeah, I’m doubly sorry now that my original post was eaten because I did cover this, as well. I think you and I read Sam and Dean very, very differently. I don’t think Sam HAS had a lot of practice controlling his anger, is the thing.

Yeah, Dean has exploded in frustration and anger, but so has Sam. Because Sam kind of runs on anger (or he did, especially in earlier seasons), it feels to me like adding the mark to that would’ve been throwing gasoline on a fire. And once we saw how Amara operates, we know she used the same sort of lure on Dean that Ruby had used on Sam. Similar to Lucifer whispering to him from the cage in early s11. Retroactively, I guess I’ve applied that same sort of enticement to how the Mark called out to Dean in s9 and s10.

Because it also didn’t come down to “control” in those moments where Dean “snapped” into murderousness. It didn’t seem to have anything to do with rage at all. He “woke up” from those acts (like the first time he held the first blade in 9.16, when he killed Abaddon in 9.21, when he killed the shapeshifter in 10.06, when he killed the group of men who’d literally had him at gunpoint and were trying to kill him in 10.10, for example), It was never framed as “Dean gives into the rage,” or “Dean fails to control his anger.” It was always framed as him being compltely taken over and basically controlled by an outside force. When Dean would fight his way back to the surface after those incidents, he was shaken and afraid by what he’d done.

Like Dean when he was struggling with Amara’s control of him in s11, we saw how insidious her influence was in his presence, but take that same capacity to influence someone and literally insert it directly into their brain. That’s the Mark. But when Dean confessed this to Sam in 11.13:

Dean: Honestly? You seriously think the sister of God is my deepest darkest desire?Sam: She isn’t?Dean: No! She can’t be!Sam: Why not?Dean: Why? Because if she is that means that I’m…Sam: Means you’re what? Complicit? Weak? Evil?Dean: For starters, yeahSam: Dean. Do you honestly think you ever had a choice in the matter? She’s the sister of God, and for some reason she picked you and that sucks, but if you think I’m gonna blame you or judge you…I’m not.Dean: You know that I want her ass deadSam: Yes. Of course. And I know you’ve also probably beaten yourself up a hundred times over it, but where has that gotten us? (Long silence) Just how bad is it?Dean: Standing here right now, every bone in my body wants to run her through. Send her back to that hole she crawled out of. But when I’m near her, I don’t know. Something happens and I can’t explain it, but to call it desire or love…it’s not that. I’m screwed man. We wanna kill the darkness. We need to kill the darkness. And I don’t think I can. I’m sorry to do that to you, ya know, but when it comes right down to it…

He’d still been working through this when he talked to Cas(ifer) about this in 11.11, but he was working his way to this exact point. It had very little to do with anger.

Sure, anger was effectively Amara’s baseline motivation for revenge against Chuck, and her tool to do that was effectively “destroy what Chuck created,” which is an effective way to act out anger, you know? But I think that anger would’ve found a far more fertile breeding ground in Sam than it did in Dean.

I mean, just think back over the last few years to the outbursts that look like anger on the surface for Dean, and honestly, they have ZERO to do with RAGE. They’re frustration, grief, defeat… like punching the sign in 13.01, like yelling about how he should’ve stayed behind in the AU if they had no way to get back there and save Mary and Jack in 13.18. The only time I felt like one of Dean’s outbursts could be described as “angry” rather than “frustrated” or “grieving” or “defeated” was in 13.03 when he yelled in Sam’s face about Cas. And there was still that well of grief there pushing him to that outburst.

Honestly, I think a fairer comparison to how they each would’ve dealt with the Mark isn’t tapping in to their emotions, but how well they compartmentalize in the face of possession. For example how long Dean casually managed to keep Michael locked in his brain fridge in s14. Michael only escaped because Dean was literally knocked unconscious. This notion that Dean lacks control of his own temper I think just seems far more pronounced in him because it’s so rare for him. It’s… not rare for Sam.

Like I said in the previous post, Sam’s rage was a major plot point for years. It fueled s4, it fueled s5, it fueled Sam’s half of the s9 and s10 story.

I think the main difference between Sam’s anger and Dean’s anger is that Sam’s tends to simmer cold, while Dean’s just boils over with heat on rare occasions, making them seem that much more out-of-character, or startling.

I don’t see it as Sam better able to control his rage than Dean, I see it as different ways of expressing said anger, because they are different people with different personalities, you know?

Sam’s just as capable of lashing out in anger as Dean, but it tends to look different when it happens. Dean just lets himself have his little outbursts before he gets to the point where he breaks from it. Sam… when Sam bursts like that, it feels more shocking, because he typically expresses his anger differently. Like when Sam punched Dean in 14.12, for example, people were SHOCKED. I read so many “wow that was out of character” posts I was honestly baffled by the fandom’s reaction to this. Because that punch was pure frustration and grief, and it’s just about the most emotion Sam’s let himself express in a long time.

I know I keep defaulting to talking about s4 and s5 here, but I’m watching 5.02 in the background while I’m typing this, so these seasons are what’s currently freshest in my mind right now.

The wraith in 5.10:

SAM: You did this to me!WRAITH: Well, I helped. But that rage? No, no, no. That’s all you. (stands, walks to the side of the bed) I don’t make crazy. I just crank up what’s already there.

The show has always, always paralleled Sam’s rage with Dean’s fear. The thing is, how they each express these underlying feelings. So, no, I really, really don’t think Sam would be better at controlling that rage under the effect of the Mark than Dean was.

and this entire post is just undercaffeinated rambling at this point, so I really don’t know what more I can say without going incident by incident through the entire series documenting the vastly different nature of Sam and Dean’s anger, and their respective outbursts. Their anger just… manifests differently, because again, they are different people with differing personalities. Sam’s anger tends to come out “cold,” and Dean’s tends to boil over more loudly. And Amara/the Mark was nothing if not cold and patient rage, you know?

Sam has traditionally gotten angry and run away, as if isolating himself from the problem could fix things. In the past, he would’ve sooner walled off the vast majority of his life to pretend at being normal that he would face it. I don’t know if I’d classify that as “having more control” of his anger. He’s just got different outlets in general than Dean does. Dean just yells, gets it out of his system, and then moves on. Sam… can’t seem to do that. Or at least he hadn’t been able to do that for the vast majority of canon.

Someone wrote an excellent piece years ago about Sam’s Rage vs Dean’s Fear, and I guess it’s stuck with me. But when a character’s primary motivation, his primary driving force through years of character development is a baseline simmering rage, I have a REALLY hard time feeling like he would’ve had more “control” over a possessing entity that literally fed on that sort of feeling.

Amara found BALANCE through her relationship with Dean. I don’t think she could’ve found that with Sam. I think that entire storyline only worked because it was Dean, and not Sam. Because Dean recognized this as something being done TO him, rather than just a manifestation of himself. (Yes, at first he thought it was a curse, and that it was his own inner “monstrousness” coming out, but it ALWAYS felt foreign to him, something he couldn’t truly identify or relate to, because it was literally not his own. And Sam would’ve had a lot more difficulty making that distinction, I think.)

As I’ve typed this up, I do realize that viewers see different things in each of these characters. We identify with them differently, based on our own experiences, and since I mostly identify with and feel like I understand Dean better than Sam, I think I’m probably looking at this from a different angle than you are. I, for example, see Sam REPEATEDLY losing his shit to his rage throughout the entire series. He gives in to it far more readily than Dean has over the years, but it tends to be less “explosive” as you said. But it motivates his entire character in ways it never, ever has for Dean. And I think Amara/the Mark would’ve eaten him alive because of it. Because she was the Mark, and she was motivated by the same cold, simmering rage.

#sam sympathizes and dean empathizes #Anonymous

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mittensmorgul · 6 years

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From your vast knowledge of canon, was Anna's angelic name Anael, or is that fanon? If it's canon, would that make Danneel's angel Aniel or something similar?

That’s fanon.

“Anna” was the name her human parents gave her. We never did learn if she had an “angel name” different from that in canon. All the angels just went on calling her by her human name.

From the Superwiki:

Julie McNiven suggested that Anna's full angelic name was actually Anael, who is an angel in real-world lore,[7] which would make "Anna" a nickname for her by other angels, similar to "Cas" for Castiel. Fans have speculated that Anna was one of the angels in lore with "Ana-" names ever since the reveal of her true nature; Anael just so happened to be the most common pick. This is dispelled with the appearance of Danneel Ackles character Anael in 13.13 Devil's Bargain.

I am thoroughly amused by the fact they chose names associated with TWO women from the past that Dean had tentative romantic interest in-- Jo Harvelle and Anna Milton-- for the character of Sister Jo.

And after hearing Anael’s role in Heaven as a button-pushing functionary, and knowing Anna Milton’s role as an angel was as the leader of the entire Garrison, I don’t think we’re supposed to assume they’re even remotely similar.

Except... Like Anna (and like Hannah, to bring up yet another angel with a very similar sounding name), Sister Jo is fascinated by human emotions. Her reaction to humanity seems to fall somewhere between Anna’s desire to experience it fully for herself, and Hannah’s completely hands-off All Angels Back To Heaven Now belief that human emotions aren’t for angels.

Like the angels Daniel and Adina from s10, that Hannah recruited Cas to help her return them to heaven, Anael discovered “freedom” on Earth. And yeah, when her alternative was to return to pushing that soul-counting button for the rest of eternity I can see why she’d rather find some way-- PRETTY MUCH ANY WAY-- to just stay on Earth.

But unlike Anna, she didn’t want to experience humanity (except in the context of occasional drug use... I mean, the way she talked about having siphoned off just enough grace that she could feel some human feelings and yet never actually be subjected to them as if they were still mostly out of reach for her, sounds an awful lot like someone describing being high, you know? Or maybe you don’t, but whatever... she and Luci even had very different opinions on what the experience was like for each of them based on their very different life experiences.)

Point is, neither Luci nor Anael actually WANT to be fully Human. Anael was academically interested in the experience, but Luci was once again disdainful. No matter how close he got to humanity, he never let those human feelings touch him in the least.

But I find it interesting in that each of these angels have arrived at near-Humanity in different ways:

Anna voluntarily cut out her grace, fell, and was BORN human into her own human body. She wanted to fully experience human emotions, and when she reclaimed her grace (at least until she was captured and returned to Heaven for reprogramming) she retained her opinions and understanding of human feelings. She was fundamentally different from pretty much every other angel with regard to her grace and her “vessel,” because IT WAS NOT A VESSEL, it was her OWN HUMAN BODY.

Hannah’s experience was from the standard Angel-Possesses-Willing-Human-Vessel standpoint, and as such she always felt that the human emotions she experienced from Caroline were a sort of foreign thing to her. Despite being curious about human emotions and experiences, Hannah felt the depth of Caroline’s anguish over how Hannah hurt her husband, and was humbled by those feelings. Instead of inspiring Hannah to want to experience more human feelings for herself, she decided that those “human things” were simply not for angels, and she chose to return to Heaven and leave humanity to itself. (yes she took another human vessel when she needed to speak to Cas face to face, but it’s implied that it was only for practical purposes and that she had no personal desire to experience or experiment with human feelings again)

Anael was relieved to no longer have to play Button Pusher in Heaven. I guess sitting there bored for most of history of the universe gave her plenty of time to think about how she’d do things better/differently in Heaven, if only any of those angels would’ve listened to her... She’s got an agenda, and Big Ideas for how to make Heaven work the way she thinks it ought to. But in lieu of actually having the power or drive to make it happen in Heaven, she’s founded her own little Crossroads Empire on Earth. Even the way she got her vessel-- by “making a deal” with a distraught woman who was willing to trade her life for her husband’s, is kinda... academically understanding the human emotions involved, and yet dispassionate enough to selfishly claim her vessel without a second thought, you know? And then after her conversation with Lucifer about what it’s like to experience human emotions when her grace is depleted, she mentions “hope, and even love” as if she’s at least had a chance to skim across the surface of those feelings but that she’s never felt compelled to fully immerse herself in them. They’re more... academically interesting to her. She’s proven to be VERY good at manipulating those human feelings to her own personal benefit, behaving very much like a Crossroads Demon, exchanging her own power for cash. She deliberately sided with Lucifer, because she sees him as her key to actually return to Heaven without being immediately sent back to her button-pushing post. She’s literally got Luci right where she wants him. Like Rowena influencing Crowley back in s10, like Ruby influencing Sam back in s4 (only via Luci’s addiction to her grace power-ups instead of demon blood... because honestly we know how cannibalized grace works-- or doesn’t work-- long-term...)

I’m throwing Castiel onto this list too, because he’s the Most Human of all the angels, and how he came to be that way is absolutely unique among angels. The entirety of his grace was removed while he was alone in his vessel, and he had no need to be “born” into his own vessel because he already HAD his own vessel. All of his angelic memories were intact, and the only thing removed was his grace. He got to live completely as a human in his own body in a way that Anna didn’t even get to experience (since she’d lost her memories for most of her human lifetime). Cas was then driven by desperation to “cannibalize” grace that first time, and it slowly poisoned him until Crowley topped off his tank. He was then dying again when Metatron told him about that tiny shard of his original grace that would at least stop him from dying from the stolen grace. He’s struggled with the fact that the vast majority of his original grace was destroyed in the angel fall spell, and has never seemed to “recharge” back to its original level. Which brings me to the seeming wtf-ery of Lucifer’s “recharging grace.”

Because the way Lucifer’s grace was vampirized in 13.07 was entirely unlike the way Cas’s was completely excised in 8.23. At the baseline here, Cas is no longer like other angels. Unlike Lucifer and Anael here, Cas WAS completely human within his own body for a time. Luci and Anael have stopped short of going all the way human. Unless we get some other sort of explanation for that, I’m going with that explanation for now.

At this point I’m gonna skim through my inbox a bit, because I think I yammered enough here to have at least touched on some of my other anons... like this one:

idk if someone else already mentioned this, but did it seem to anyone else like they were mirroring Aneal with Ruby? Like angel to demon but you never know if you can trust them and they're a smooth talking strategist sneakily angling to put a certain someone on a throne...

Yuuuuppp. :P

So as long as an angel has a bit of their grace left, they can recharge it. Why were Cas' powers muted for so long, then? His grace should have healed.

As I kinda tried to say above, the implication for years has been that Cas really isn’t like other angels anymore. I think he’s really not like other angels anymore. Even with his own original grace restored, Cas is essentially human now with a grace power-up. It’s like he can get back to that baseline he achieved by having his own grace restored in 10.18, but can only get back to that depowered state, you know? (similar to how he was when he was slowly losing his powers back in s5, because he was “disconnected from Heaven”. It’s as if he’s truly chosen his side, and like he said in 12.19, he’s officially picked the Winchesters.)

#spn 13.13 #sister jo #anael #anna milton #lucifer (the one on spn)#on the nature of angel grace #castiel winchester #Anonymous

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