#pre-Christian Rome

[castilestateofmind]

“The vital development of the Celtiberian people, similar to all other Celtic tribes, gravitated around values of high moral content... a clearly agonistic ethic led to the exaltation of war as a field where they could obtain the maximum fulfilment of the Roman virtus”.

- Gabriel Sopena Genzor. Ethics and Ritual. An Approximation to the Study of the Celtiberian Religiosity, 1995.

#Celtiberian #Celtiberia #Celts #Religiosity #paganism #european religions #european culture #pre-christian religions #war #virtus #Viriatus #Europe #European values #alain de benoist #julius evola #rene guenon #solar cult #sacrifice #Virtus god #ancient rome #indo-europeans

[puppidy]

People complain about Christians stealing pagan culture like they forget that the early Christians were in a pagan dominated culture and that the people who were becoming Christians willingly early on were of those cultures.

#I say willingly because it didn't take that long until kingdoms were forcing people to be of Christianity #Just like every other religion ever #Like I'm not saying “the way later Christians used saints as stand ins for pagan gods was 100% natural and shit #Just that Christianity wasn't (and still isn't) a solid ridged set of beliefs and values #and that people will bring often aspects of their previous beliefs with them #Such as Saturnalia morphing into Christmas overtime #Ffs I better not do a theology paper next year and find out everything here is just wrong #Also I'm more speaking about Christianity pre orthodox/catholicism spilt #Before it was the state religion of Rome #Theology #Early Christianity #Please someone correct any misconceptions I gsce #Have #Fuck I hate my keyboard so much on my phone I need to download a better one #But afraid it could be worse #Also I hated myself for saying pagan culture #But like this is more targeted at the people who would only know those preexisting religious beliefs as pagans (and Judaism) #I had a rant about Constantine but had to chillax it to this #It's 3am

[aphemorpha]

one of these days im going to finally hyperfixate on my own culture instead of just looking at other’s with soft eyes.

#granted most of our pre-christian stuff is gone because of how long that catholics have held power #like it's og christianization wave. taken over by rome completely :( #england gets king arthur and filling in the spaces with the celtic cultures #what the fuck does the netherlands have? #a mesh of germanic and nordic cultures.

[kyliaquilor]

I will never respect self-martyrdom in history.

At some point, you basically forced the state to kill you when you rejected numerous opportunities to avoid death that didn’t even remotely require significant sacrifice.

#Socrates #the christians in pre-constantine Rome #Charles I #Catherine of Aragon technically even if she wasn't executed she was given numerous honorable ways out #et cetera #Grumping #History #Anti-Martyrdom

[rebellum]

"Cicero (pre-T rome)"

Rome confirmed trans 🏳️‍⚧️💙💜🤍💜💙

#took me longer than it should of to realise past-me meant #pre-christianity rome #lol

[elucubrare]

#i was going to add 100 years war but honestly i think that would be SO mundane in comparison #and that's when augustus ordered that all his enemies be cancelled (proscribed)

[what-even-is-thiss]

What do you think would our world be like if Christianity hadn't been invented? I'm not trying to start an anti-christianity argument, I am just wondering... Because it transformed our world and our cultures so much. For example, no Christianity = no colonization as we know it, would we still believe in heathen / nature gods or would another religion colonize the planet? What would that look like? Would we even have racism? Since "race theory" was invented by white christian colonizers to "justify" slavery.

I do think that it’s possible colonization would’ve happened in one form or another. What it would’ve looked like, I’m not sure. But people often forget that cultures with religions other than Christianity have historically erased and conquered.

As a Christian I don’t excuse the sins of those who share my faith. Their forgiveness is up to their victims, themselves, and God. And I recognize that Christians as a whole have a tendency to ignore our bloody history. But I also don’t think the world would necessarily be that much better without it. Different? Absolutely. Better? How would we know that? It wasn’t the only or first major religion to spread like wildfire. It wasn’t the only or first religion to be used to justify atrocities. Look at historical examples in Communist countries. Atheism being used to erase people’s religions. Look at the history of Islam. One of Mohammad’s first big feats was launching a military campaign. Look at Ancient Rome. Even though they let people keep their gods they still plugged their own gods in where they didn’t fit, used them to justify horrible atrocities, and severely discriminated against Jewish people.

People in power just want an excuse to justify their actions. Religion or lack thereof makes for a convenient excuse whether we like it or not. Without Christianity the world would still have power-hungry people looking to force their will on others and they’d find an excuse. Possibly in some other religion, possibly in something else. But Christianity became a world religion so long ago that I cannot tell you what I think would’ve happened exactly. If modern racism wasn’t invented something would still be contributing to discrimination.

Perhaps the cult of Isis would’ve taken over the world. It had some similar ideas to Christianity in some ways including a focus on love and a good afterlife for its followers and it was spreading a lot even though some tried to ban it. Maybe it was on its way to being the state religion before my guy Jesus showed up. And temples and shrines of Isis being erected in town squares would be the first step in colonizing an area.

Perhaps the Chinese would be the first to colonize the new world. Or the Arabs. If Islam existed in some form or another. Or even with their old gods. Perhaps the traders of west Africa or the Norse. If you ask me, someone at least was bound to make contact across the water one way or another and unfortunately bring diseases like smallpox and measles with them. What their response would’ve been, I’m not entirely sure. Humans are often xenophobic, but they are also often caring.

It’s taken centuries for the native populations of the Americas to return to their pre-Columbus numbers. Whether or not that recovery would’ve happened faster under different leadership, I’m unsure because as the different colonizers demonstrated over time, there’s many different ways to “deal” with native populations. The English preferred to drive them out, the Spanish attempted to absorb them through intermarriage, the French slowly encroached on their territory and disrupted and took over their economies. And later in Africa and Asia the goal by all was generally to use the land and it’s people as a resource rather than a place to live.

Colonization was an extreme example and expansion of pre-existing techniques and attitudes. There can be arguments made that something like colonization was inevitable eventually with expanding technology such as better ships and guns. There can also be arguments made that it wasn’t. That guns don’t promise colonization. Perhaps something akin to old empires would’ve happened instead. Which isn’t always much better but is more contained.

Whether or not Russia as it exists at the size it is today is also up for debate. Some would argue it’s inevitable. Someone setting up shop in that exact spot has several flat weak points of land easy to invade from so any empire in that spot would find that the only way to protect themselves would be to own all of the land surrounding them. Then again, perhaps nothing is inevitable and that patch of land would be conquered and reconquered switching hands forever.

Alternate history is almost pure speculation. It’s fiction. A popular genre of fiction. You can probably find a book out there telling a story about this if you like.

#roman said a thing #religion mention

[traegorn]

Hey-o! Tis the season for people to talk about how the holidays were "actually pagan" and I'm on the hunt for sources about how that's really not the case, if you have any you'd recommend!

Okay, so the problem is there are so many weird "Christmas is stolen!" bullshit memes going around, it's so hard to just give you a comprehensive list of sources. Christmas celebrations have evolved as the religion has spread, and different things come from different times...

The key here is to go for academic sources. This is a question of history, and a well supported historical research is going to tell you whether they're operating from primary, secondary or tertiary sources.

So while I can't give you a simple list, let me give you a couple of examples off the top of my head and give you tips on how to investigate any the dumb claims that get passed around.

Christmas being in December: So a lot of people go for the "Christmas is in December so it can steal from [INSERT SOLSTICE CELBRATION]" is ahistorical... because we know exactly why Christmas is in December. Because the guys who made the decision argued with each other and left behind written documentation. The two big names you need to look up are  Clement of Alexandria (who pitched January 6th) and Hippolytus of Rome (who proposed December 25th). This is around the turn of the third century, and you can find both of their writings. Some folks have questioned the authenticity of some of Hippolytus of Rome's writings, but Clement of Alexandria's seem well supported. These were internal arguments about when the birth of Christ took place within the early church, and when they settled on late December. There are reasons for this, and you can read their arguments (it largely has to do with the importance of when Jesus was conceived -- they wanted that to be an important date and then added nine months to it). Importantly though, because linear time is a thing, this means Christmas was set in December before the Christianization of the Germanic and Norse tribes... so anyone who says Christmas was set to December to correspond with Yule doesn't understand the concept of "coincidences."

The Christmas Tree: The Christmas tree was invented in 16th century Germany. That's... that's just written down all over the place. Now, there are legends about Martin Luther being the first who did it -- but I'm pretty certain that's just an embellishment that got added on. There are preceding traditions where part of an evergreen was brought into the home as a part of solstice traditions (though some will claim the Egyptians did this? Which is wild -- likely misinterpreting their use of palm fronds as the same thing), but the act of taking a whole ass tree, cutting it down, putting it in your house, and decorating it? That's 16th century Germany all the way. You can rabbit hole so many sources on that one, but honestly just pick apart the citations on the Wikipedia page. Putting a branch in your house and dragging a whole tree in are very different acts.

Jesus's story is copied from [INSERT RANDOM GOD]: There are so many of these, and some are just downright disrespectful to major world religions (the Krishna version of the meme especially). The answer is... just see if what the meme is saying about the god is supported by the mythology. Like I've seen ones that says Dionysus was "born of a virgin." If you know anything about the Greek gods, you're probably already laughing on the floor. Horus gets dragged into this too, because Gerald Massey was trying to pull a "White Goddess but with Dudes." But any serious research on Horus will tell you the supposed parallels aren't supported by the mythology.

So sorry, this wasn't so much sources you can use as it is how to look for them to begin with. Because there's just so, so much. This isn't even covering cases of syncretism, where pre-existing cultural traditions got continued post-Christianization. Because it's almost always the case that if a pre-Christian practice endured post Christianization, it's because people decided to keep doing it -- not because the church was trying to "steal" it. The latter means there was some mustache twirling plan behind it, when the former means (usually) the church went "Well, they're paying their tithes and saying it's for Jesus, so who gives a shit?"

I'm just going to finish this off with linking to my podcast episode on this, along with Ocean Keltoi's great Yule video on the topic. Hopefully that helps.

#witch #witchcraft #witchblr #yule #christmas #christmas tree #pagan

[creature-wizard]

Is it true that Friday the 13th was a day of veneration to Freyja before the church started associating it with the devil?

Edit: Made one mistake in the original reply; Friday is named after Frigg, not Freyja! So this is edited to fix that.

So the thing about all of these cutesy little "did you know X has pagan origins??" memes, is that pretty much all of them are basically wrong. They tend to come about because people just kind of assume that if something doesn't have a Biblical basis, then it must be a carryover from pre-Christian paganism. People have spun all kinds of conspiracy theories out of this.

Moreover, many people have attempted to find a historical basis for the allegations made during Europe's pre-Christian witch trials, proposing that accused witches were actually cryptopagans gathering in the woods to worship some pre-Christian deity. In reality, the accusations were based on what Christians of the day imagined paganism to be like based on centuries of demonization: orgiastic, violent, and ultimately satanic; as well as a full-blown mockery of Christianity. Within the logic of the witch panic, if Christians have a sacred day of worship, then witches must also have a sacred day of worship - just evil. It's important to note here that Christians believe that Jesus was crucified on a Friday.

If we look at Wikipedia's article on the witches' sabbath, we can see that the idea of the witches' sabbath isn't extraordinarily old; in fact, it's a product of Europe's witch panic.

Also, Friday isn't named after Freyja; it's named after Frigg. And the whole claim that Freyja was worshiped on Fridays because Friday is named after her shows ignorance of the actual reason why the days are named the way they are. The whole thing actually goes back to ancient Rome. Sunday was dies Solis (day of the sun), Monday was dies Lunae (day of the moon), Tuesday was dies Martis (day of Mars), Wednesday was dies Mercurii (day of Mercury), Thursday was dies Iovis (day of Jupiter), Friday was dies Veneris (day of Venus), and Saturday was dies Saturni (day of Saturn).

The Romans, of course, were big on the idea that everybody else's gods were actually the same as their own. They associated Tyr with Mars, Odin with Mercury, and Thor with Jupiter - do you see where this is going? Friday got named after Frigg because in the Roman way of looking at things, Frigg is just the Norse version of Venus.

Finally, as far as I am aware, Freyja was never historically linked to the number thirteen, either. Every page I can find linking Freyja with the number thirteen is repeating the claim that Freyja was venerated on Fridays, and offers no explanation of why Freyja was associated with the number thirteen. If you look into myths about Freyja, you won't find her associated with thirteen of anything - and it would be very strange if you did, because the main sacred numbers in Scandinavian thinking were three and nine (three times three).

On the other hand, thirteen is an important number to Christians. Jesus plus the apostles made thirteen. The thirteen of them gathered at Passover shortly before Judas betrayed Jesus.

In conclusion, Friday the 13th has nothing to do with Freyja; this whole idea that it was historically associated with her is nothing more than a post-Christian conspiracy theory.

#freyja #friday the 13th #friday the thirteenth #history #pseudohistory #conspiracy theories #conspiracy theory #conspiracism

[alpaca-clouds]

Roman Gods ≠ Greek Gods

Okay, given that Stray Gods has kinda pulled me into that Mythology thing again... Let me quickly say something: No, the Roman Gods are not just the Greek Gods.

A lot of media - like A LOT - acts as if the Roman Gods are just basically the Greek Gods with some minor changes. But, like... They are not. And acting as if they were is simply misunderstanding how religions and thier mythologies work.

If you were to look at it like this, you could argue that YHW is Zeus and is Susanoo as well, if we are on that. (Alright, last one is a topic we gotta argue about.) Because here is the thing: All European and a good chunk of Asian and some North African cultures came from or were influenced by the Indo-Europeans. Aka, some folks who lived some more than 6000 years ago, who were a big influence in making horses a thing and promptly used those horses to spread over the previously mentioned areas. With them they brought their languages and their mythology. Both things that shifted over hundreds of years, creating on one hand the different languages - as well as the different mythologies.

Greek, Roman, Egyptian and Norse mythologies are part of that. As is the Semitic mythology - which obviously birthed Judaism, Christianity and Islam.

The gods did not originate with the Greeks. They were much older than that. We even know from where some of the Greek gods came, as we have fragments documenting them being worshiped by some pre-greek cultures.

Which is kinda where the entire thing with the Greeks and Romans comes in. The incorporation of the Greek gods to the Roman religion seems so obvious to us, because it is so well documented. Because both cultures wrote down a lot of stuff, which gave historians the amazing ability to understand a lot more about their culture and religion - because they could read all of it. It is not like with the Norse or the Celtic mythology where the people in question only transmitted those stories orally, making it so that the first to write those stories down were people who did not actually believe in them/practiced the religion and wrote them down from a more or less outsiders perspective. So, we know a lot of those gods and we can very clearly see that the Romans adapted a lot from the Greeks.

But... here is the thing: Not only they adapted them, but quite a few gods were also fused with deities local to Rome and what is modern day Italy. Both things were merged - and there are in fact some gods in which the Italic version of them is more influencial than the Greek one.

Obviously, the Italic people were also from Indo-European roots, so yeah, it probably made sense to merge Zeus and Diespiter, who both were "sky fathers" into one deity.

Yes, there was a whole political aspect in taking over the pantheon.

But saying "Oh, yeah, they just painted over the names" is just ignorant of the cultural context.

#rant post #greek mythology #roman mythology #ancient greece #ancient rome #indo european #history #ancient history #mythology #hades #stray gods #rick riordan

[ancientorigins]

The word "paganism" has come to refer to various pre-Christian religions belonging to a number of ancient cultures—those from Greece, Rome, Egypt, Scandinavia, and so on.

#paganism #history #ancient cultures

[fac-romam-iterum-magna]

France's name

I dont know if it was intentional, but france's name is really well thought

His last name Bonnefoy literally mean "Good Faith" in old french. After all, pre-revolution france was named the eldest daughter of church, was a divine right monarchy and the franks were the representant of the christian west. So one of his king or him would have taken this name for him around the 13th century, because of its signification. Before that he would have used a patronyme, either related to the king clovis or rome.

As for his first name, i've seen many people prefering françois over francis because it's more common. Personally, i really like Francis as a name because:

It come from latin. I headcanon France to be born as the personification of gallo-romans people, so he would have been raised by Rome and then would later simp hard for him (as did basically everyone)

Contrary to the popular belief, it doesnt mean "French" but "Free Man". Considering that the enlightment era was mostly based in France, and that french thinkers of that period influenced american revolution with the whole freedom things, i personally think this name is better than just "French". (Plus the LIBERTY statue was literally made in france)

#hetalia #hws france #I hope it makes sense

[thegodwhocums]

For some 1,700 years—from the end of Minoan civilization around 1200 B.C. to the final fall of Rome around 500 A.D.—the god Dionysos continued to speak in some degree both for the half-forgotten shadows of the pre-Indo-European inhabitants of Greece and for the suppressed visions of the Mediterranean's underclasses. Even as late as 1700 A.D., broken-down strains of the old religion, surviving in scattered pockets of Europe, continued to echo Dionysian themes until they were finally annihilated by the onslaught of patriarchal industrialism. Although distrusted by the Greco-Roman religious establishment, co-opted and then persecuted by the Christians, and finally overwhelmed by industrial institutions and values, the Dionysian tradition managed for nearly three thousand years to embody in some degree an alternative vision of the nature of human experience.

Arthur Evans, “The God of Ecstasy: Sex Roles and the Madness of Dionysos,” 1988

#arthur evans #Dionysos #the cult of dionysus #books #ekstasis #resistance

[buggywiththefolkmagic]

Saw your book post and I think you've confused a few things...

You seem to mix up Hoodoo and Vodou a lot. They are not the same. Hoodoo is not a closed practice nor religion. It's just fking weird and poser-ish if someone claims it without ever growing up in the culture for it. But many Hoodoo practioners will tell you their practice is not closed. Vodou/Santeria is closed.

Also saying to be careful not to fall into Hoodoo while doing Conjure... you know rootwork is similar across all cultures right? This just feels like a gatekeeping statement and prevents people from really digging into their folkwork by making them constantly worried they're appropriating.

The thing with smudging: you make no mention of which kind of smudging is closed. You just said it generally, which is a bit ridiculous. Burning herbs for the sake of energy and cleansing is not inherently a Native Indigenous practice. Bayabas, or guava leaves, have been used in the Philippines pre-colonialism. Frankenincense in Europe and Old Christianity. Ti Leaves in Hawaii. Rose in Ancient Rome, and Blue Lotus in Ancient Egypt. As a latina, and as half of one myself🇨🇺, we both know our people love to use incense at altars. SAGE, particularly white sage, is where the line is drawn. Same with palo santo. I agree with your points, but I think you need to be specific if you're being critical.

Much love from 🇵🇭✨️

Hello there anon! I see you sent another ask apologizing for assuming I was Latina, and you're quite forgiven! I am as they say white as white can be.

As a white person I went to an American BIPOC friend of mine in order to answer all of this as honestly as I possibly could. Hoodoo by means of origin IS a closed practice. It's roots come from Ghana and was created in America as a very specific response to slavery. Both Hoodoo and Vodu are tribal/family based, and both require a initiation of sorts through community in order to practice them. Vodu's roots are in Haiti, and through community, enslavement, and initiation needed through the "family" as some groups of Vodu practioners call themselves, are required therefore it is also closed. I shall include some links below to help with the distinction of Hoodoo and Vodu and why they are both closed practices/religions. Hoodoo could be considered a religion in Louisiana specifically due to it's usage there and sometimes it's blending with Vodu. https://medium.com/@empressnaima/my-hoodoo-initiation-5086e375e378 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hoodoo_(spirituality) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haitian_Vodou https://cswr.hds.harvard.edu/news/magic-matters/2021/11/10 https://brizomagazine.com/2020/06/15/the-appropriation-of-magic-how-white-people-demonised-voodoo/ Now that I've cleared up through BIPOC voices/history/links on why Hoodoo is in fact closed...let me address the specific comment of

"You know rootwork is similar across all cultures right? This just feels like a gatekeeping statement and prevents people from really digging into their folkwork by making them constantly worried they're appropriating." Rootwork in of itself is a Hoodoo term iirc, but I may be wrong on that front. As for worrying about appropriation...white people SHOULD BE worried about appropriating. Hell currently in America we still through simply social climate and judicial systems are failing our BIPOC/Indigenous communities.

As a folk worker who has some herbalism that stems from Cherokee and Creek peoples I am so beyond careful to make sure my practice is not appropriating from them. White people demolished them, slaughtered them, and took away their homes and sacred spaces, hell, we stole and demolished their LANGUAGE. And you're telling me I don't need to worry about taking anything else from them? The best option is to contact the people you believe is being appropriated from and just...asking them. Wild concept I know. Make friends that are not from your station! Send emails and letters to community leaders in these appropriated cultures in an honest and respectful way to see if what you're studying is appropriated. A good example of this was I found recently an ancestor of mine worked closely with what she called "Grandmama Spider". Grandmother Spider is a Cherokee creation deity. Referencing the above horrors and terrors us white folk did and are still doing to the Cherokee people...I will not be following in her footsteps. Individuals like Cat/Catherin Yronwode has perpetrated that Hoodoo is open, and has caused catastrophic issues with her large standing in the American Folk Magic world. A link to an open letter about Cat Yronwode and her severe appropriation/dismissal of the real history of New Orleans Voodoo being "fake" and "not a slave based religion" is here: https://conjureart.blogspot.com/2013/10/open-letter-to-cat-yronwode-and-lucky.html I don't want to pick on any specific religions/groups of people but all you have to do is read through ONE "witchcraft for beginners" book written in America or England and find at least two stolen items from Indigenous Americans AND the BIPOC/Black community. It's THAT common. Totems and Spirit Animals? Not entirely Indigenous but the ones these authors are teaching about ARE. The same goes for the word smudging, when I mention a book has smudging in it I am talking about white sage. White Americans love to use their white sage with an illegal owl feather and a shell to hold their bundle of sage in. The word smudging in of itself comes from the 15th to 16th century Germanic language and was actually talking about using smoke to rid a home or building of insect infestations. The word we SHOULD be using for cleansing with smoke should simply be...smoke cleansing. It avoids the person reading from having to guess if it's appropriated or not.

Having said all of that I guess all of this boils down to one thing: Listen to the voices of the cultures first. If they say something's appropriated? Stop. If they say it's closed? Stop. I have no authority on anything at all, but if I can speak up just once and give others a platform to say, "Hey this is kinda fucked up" I will. It's the least I as a white person can do.

#witchblr #appalachian folk magic #folk magic #buggy answers #tw: slavery #tw: appropriation #tw: atrocities #Whew this one took a while.

[antifascist-now-and-always]

The Italian Resistance

These are some facts and curiosities about the Italian Resistance:

The Resistance movement was characterized in Italy by the unitary commitment of multiple and sometimes opposing political orientations (communists, shareholders, monarchists, socialists, Christian Democrats, liberals, republicans, anarchists), mostly united in the National Liberation Committee (CLN)

The historical period in which the movement was active began after the armistice of 8 September 1943 (the CLN was founded in Rome on 9 September), and ended in the first days of May 1945

There will be no real recognition by the Allies of the Italian Resistance and consequently of its representation in the Allied command structures, unlike other European resistance movements.

The first groups were formed in the Pre-Alps and Pre-Apennines to facilitate supplies from the plains and to be able to have safety rear areas in the high mountains.

A fundamental element of cohesion among the partisans was anti-fascism, the total rejection of the disastrous "fascist war" subordinated to the German ally; the contempt and radical criticism of the hierarchies of the Royal Army, especially of the senior officers considered inept and cowardly.

The rejection of the Royal Army by the vast majority of partisans did not allow true moral cohesion among the Resistance fighters

Equipped with poor equipment, the partisan formations did not adopt uniforms, dressed in disparate ways and used colored handkerchiefs for identification: red in the Garibaldi formations, green in the Justice and Freedom departments, blue in the autonomous groups.

An attempt was also made to standardize common clothing based on windbreakers and long trousers, and a simple and inconspicuous system of rank insignia was adopted.

Some groups of German deserters also joined the partisan struggle in Italy, the number of which is difficult to estimate since, to avoid reprisals against their families residing in Germany, they used fictitious names and were often considered by their original units as "missing". " and not "deserters" for a matter of propaganda.

In certain areas there was also the notable presence of Soviet soldiers who passed with the partisans after escaping from prison camps.

Sources:

Wikipedia: The Italian Resistance

The Resistance by Gianni Olivia

#25 aprile #italy #mediterranean #ww2 #ww2 history #world war 2 #second world war #proud antifascist #antifascist #antifascismo

[beardedmrbean]

Can anyone explain the whole “Christmas is actually a pagan holiday/capitalism idea!”

Yeah Christians adapted a lot of pagan festivals or merge them with their beliefs similar to how Day of the Dead as we know it came to be. Wait that more complicated.

I mean are you guys going to attack Jewish people over Hanukkah? Actually I heard that was originally a minor holiday that later became bigger because it tend to start near Christmas.

What this idea that all pagan culture was wipeout by Christianity? I mean it not rocket science on who the other big influence of Santa Claus beyond Saint Nick. Especially if Santa winks.

I started rambling, going to add a super short TL:DR; at the end.

Hanukkah is actually older, pre-dates Jesus Jews kicked the Greeks out in the Maccabean revolt, 2nd century BC.

Few hundred years later they tried it again with Rome, didn't go as well.

This is part of the "Arch of Titus" celebrating his sack of Jerusalem and looting then destroying the Temple, you'll notice the menorah. There's some people that look at this in the same way people looked at statues of confederate generals.

Not sure about it being a minor holiday but it could be, just like the calendar of saints if you're Catholic and looking for a reason to have a party you can pretty much toss a dart at a calendar and land on a Jewish holiday without much trouble.

Easter is one we as Christians kind of share, obviously Pesach/Passover lines up with it because it's not like we don't know the dates there.

The Christmas thing is people seem to want to associate it with "pagan" stuff to deligitimize Christianity or something, love to see them to that with Ramadan or Dwali, Dwali being a Hindu festival of lights, different theme than Hanukkah though.

But ya, there may be bits and pieces of local folklore that make it into the regional celebrations, but there's no pagan root to Christmas at all.

Places have their different things like Krampus or Black Pete (soot from a chimney) and what not.

The capitalism thing is more recent, but the giving of gifts started with the wise men so not really pagan there either.

Though they were likely soothsayers/magicians ect themselves, still sets the example we've been following. Gifts aren't always as useful as those were but still nothing wrong with new socks. ___________

TL:DR; it's not pagan, no Christian holidays are taken from pagan holidays that I can think of, certain regional folklore has stayed alive in the celebrations but those are.......regional so things like a flaming goat made of straw aren't needed for Christmas.

Incredible how much global crossover there is on various holy days, might be something with that whole lunar calendar that everyone all over the globe managed to figure out at some point. ________

Your harvest festival is around the same time as ours, wonder who copied whom?

Nobody it's when the corn was ready for us and the wheat for you, it's not that deep.

#anonymous