#lion primary

[air-in-words]

Anastasia: SortingHatChats

Hey, guys, I back now.

Anastasia time.

So, as a DISCLAIMER: THIS FILM IS A WORK OF FICTION. I highly recommend looking into the actual history behind the film if you're interested!

Here we go!

(I seem to recall there being a sorting already posted of Anastasia, but I remember disagreeing with most of it? Absolutely no offense meant to whoever originally posted it! These are just my two cents!)

ANASTASIA/ANYA

BADGER PRIMARY

Anya's entire storyline revolves around the ideas of "family," "home," and "belonging." Not just her own, personal family (which would be Snake,) not necessarily the home she remembers being born into (as far as she knows, she's an orphan,) and not only her own state of belonging. She deals in the concept of these things as though they were basic necessities: everyone should want them, and she wants them because everyone needs them in order to be whole. This is truth to her, full stop.

Anya: "Do you think you're gonna miss it?"

Dimitri: "Miss what, your talking?

Anya: "No! Russia."

Dimitri: "Nope."

Anya: "But it was your home!"

Dimitri: It was a place I once lived. End of story."

Anya: "Well, then you must plan on making Paris your true home."

Dimitri: "What is it with you and homes?!"

Anya: "Well, for one thing, it's something that every normal person wants!"

This is not a belief system, nor is it a conclusion she's come to. It's something that is such a part of her make up as a human being, that to imagine that another person doesn't care about the concept of a "true home" or "true community" is downright disturbing to her. Her desire for "home, love, family" is not her trying to seek out individuals she already knows, but to find the space she came from, filled with strangers she's never met, but who she believes will accept her through the power of community. It reads very animated Hercules, often dreaming of a far off place where a voice keeps saying, THIS is where I'm meant to be. Badger Primaries love the idea of having a secret family they've never met that will swoop in and carry them away, loving them unconditionally, when the world immediately around them has been so cruel. Lonely Badger Primaries are the perfect characters to fall in love with the idea of being long lost royalty. The main character arc Anya goes through is learning that family is not just the people who gave birth to you: Found family is not only just as powerful, but can become even moreso over time. This is the same moral the animated Hercules learns! Belonging and community is created and watered like a garden: If you keep searching for your perfect, idealized community, you might miss the one forming right before your eyes.

LION SECONDARY

It doesn't take long to pin Anya as a rather loud Lion Secondary. She is unafraid to voice her opinions, and often does so in a blunt and unashamed way. SShe absolutely DESPISES lying, and she is the first to take the easiest, most straight forward way out.

Dimitri: (trying to detach a traincar after breaking multiple tools) "COME ON, there's gotta be something in there better than this!!"

Anya: (wordlessly hands Dimitri a stick of lit dynamite)

Dimitri: "That'll work!"

What this movie actual shows is an interesting, not as often explored aspect of the Badger Lion, which is how the brash and straightforward nature of the Lion Secondary can work against the desires of the Badger Primary. Anya longs for nothing more than home and community, but often inadvertently (and not so inadvertently) alienates those around her with her cutting phrasing. It takes a more grounded, good listener like Vlad to see past Anya's brashness almost immediately, understanding the intentions behind her bravado.

Vlad: "I see an engaging and fiery young woman, who on a number of occasions has shown a regal command equal to any royal in the world!"

DIMITRI

SNAKE PRIMARY (Initially Burnt)

Dimitri's storyline is a bit deeper than many people might initially realize. What we're looking at is a Snake Primary who, at a very young age, tried to save one of their People (the Princess Anastasia, for whom he is implied to have either a childhood friendship with or just a faraway crush,) and failed, horribly. In fact, they failed to the point that they believe they are at least partially to blame for the death of that Person. That's about as deep and dark of a hole as a Snake Primary can fall into, so the Snake Primary will, naturally, Burn and find new, non-Person things to fill that void. Namely, recognition and fortune.

Dimitri: "Imagine the reward her dear old grandmama will pay!"

Of course,this could point to Glory Hound Lion, just as easily. If not for his Snake Primary sneaking in at every possible moment. The line following that one above is:

Dimitri: "Who else could pull it off but you and me?"

The "you" in question being Vlad, the only other Person Dimitri has allowed in (and by "allowed in," I always assumed got so tired of Vlad actively FORCING HIMSELF into Dimitri's life that he acquiesced and decided to just let him stay.) But, Dimitri's obsession with the Princess Anastasia continues, against all odds. His latest con? Directly Princess Anastasia related. Is it enough for the woman they hire to play her be "good enough?" NO. She has to be PERFECT. They hold AUDITIONS, and Dimitri is the perfect person to be on the board, because Dimitri still knows her intimately well, even after all these years. Such as hum recognizing Anastasia's face in Anya's right from the start. Thus, comes Dimitri's initial inner turmoil in regards to Anya: Are his feelings just projection? Is he attracted to her JUST because she looks like Anastasia? Is he ACTUALLY that obsessed? All those questions become moot when Anya is revealed to truly be Anastasia, though Dimitri finds himself where he was as a boy. From this point on in the movie, pretty much every motivation/choice Dimitri makes revolves around the fact that Anya IS Anastasia, and that he is going to give her what she wants and deserves, no matter what it takes. Even if that means keeping himself away from her romantically. His character arc revolves around forgiving himself for what he perceived as a dire mistake against one of his People, which is a ROUGH arc for a Snake to go through.

Dimitri: "Paris holds the key to her past. Yes, Princess, I've found you at last! No more pretend. You'll be gone, that's the end..."

SNAKE SECONDARY

Dimitri is actually quite a good con, all things considered. He manages to trick Anya into thinking they have train tickets when they DEFINITELY do not, and he keeps the reward under wraps for the entirety of their trip. Not just that, but dodging around obstacles instead of facing them head on is his most natural state. As a child, he is seen sneaking out of the kitchens (where be belongs) and automatically offering the servants' quarters as a means of escape, which is extremely clever and resourceful. Dimitri tries to charm and placate Anya at every turn, trying to keep her naturally explosive personality under wraps.

Anya: "The baggage car...? There wouldn't be anything wrong with our papers now, would there, maestro..?"

Dimitri: "Of course not, Your Grace! It's just that I hate to see you forced to mingle with all those commoners..."

But, we spend most of the film seeing Dimitri forced out of his comfort zone by both the situation and Anya's combative Lion Secondary, so he's often seen conspiratorially complaining to Vlad while in his Neutral State or just outright losing his temper and yelling. But, this never comes first, and his plans and plots are always somewhat circumventing. During the train derailment, his plans are to jump off, disconnect the train cars, and just wait until the train coasts to a stop. All pretty passive/out of the box thinking. When he IS shown trying to face someone head on, he is always unsuccessful: Trying to fight for Anastasia during the siege only to be immediately knocked out, trying to take on Rasputin directly and being tossed aside pretty easily. Comparatively, Anya/Anastasia is shown to be successful when she is upfront and combative: Getting away from Rasputin as a child by kicking him in the face, ultimately defeating Rasputin by straight up smashing his reliquary.

VLAD

LION PRIMARY

Vlad is a pretty classic Paragon Lion Primary. He wants to do what is Good and Right and doesn't what is Bad and Wrong. For what reason would he wind up as a con artist as a Paragon Lion, though? Even for Paragon Lions, what is Good and Right to THEM can go against what the collective believes is good and right.

Vlad: "That's what I hate about this government. Everything is in red!"

Yes, the above line is also meant to be a coded message for Dimitri, but Vlad thinks the government has overstepped his moral boundaries and has chosen to step outside the usual bounds to follow his own morals. Part of those morals involve guiding those he believes are lost, thus, his "adoption" of Dimitri, a very lost young man with little direction. He tries to act as Dimitri's "moral compass" until Dimitri finds his own direction again. He does the same for Anya when she comes into their group, trying to lead her towards the possibility of finding her home, while gently guiding her away from focusing on her "past."

Vlad: "There is nothing left for you back there, my dear. Everything is in Paris."

He stands up for what he believes in, and inserts himself constantly when he believes Dimitri is wrong. Letting him know when he's "walking away too soon" or when he "has to talk to her" even if she's a Princess and Dimitri's a Kitchen Boy.

BADGER SECONDARY

Vlad is one of the kindest, most lovingly genuine characters I've encountered in fiction, and I mean with that with all my heart. He is consistently gentle and understanding with the people he comes across, and is always even-tempered and fair. Compare Vlad and Dimitri's reactions to finding Anya skulking around their home:

Dimitri: (shouting, from across the room) "HEY! What are you doing in here?! HEY! STOP!"

Vlad: (coming in at a light jog, holding up his hand politely) "Excuse me, child!"

Vlad always assumes the best from whomever he's interacting with, and is excellent at getting to the root of what's bothering a person. He actively tries to make everyone in his company comfortable, and will often make soft jokes or observations in an attempt to lighten the mood. His Lion Primary makes him unable to entirely give in when he knows what's going on is wrong, but his Badger Secondary gives him the skills to broach those uncomfortable topics with grace and eloquence.

Vlad: (gives Dimitri the most fatherly, loving hug in all of animation) "Ahhh, my boy... you are making a mistake."

TL;DR

Anya/Anastasia: Badger Lion

Dimitri: Double Snake

Vlad: Lion Badger

And, there we go! Anastasia was one of my absolute FAVORITE movies as a child, so I've really enjoyed getting an opportunity to sort them! Let me know your thoughts! :)

#sorting hat chats #sortinghatchats #shc #anastasia movie #anya anastasia #dimitri anastasia #vlad anastasia #dimitri x anya #anya x dimitri #badger primary #lion secondary #snake primary #snake secondary #lion primary #badger secondary #badger lion #double snake #lion badger

[thelongestway]

Not to comment on something you posted over a year ago, but based on my impressions of the SHC system I think Rezo would, like Zel, also be a Lion/Bird (albeit I am basing this partly on his Revo/Evo-R characterization as well as his Slayers Prime characterization.)

Ha! Long-term engagement is fantastic, so thank you for asking! Let me do A Take on this - but I don't remember Revo/Evo nearly as well, so if you've got something to add from that point, please do!

Rezo the Red Priest, one of the primary antagonists in Slayers, is an interesting case - the Lion Primary is certainly there! That single-minded devotion to curing his own eyesight has A LOT in common with how Zelgadis wants to cure his body. Actually, I think it's fairly safe to say that Zel probably copies his way of dealing from the one adult in his life. However, as far as Secondaries go... There are indeed points to be made for Bird. The sheer breadth of his knowledge - this is a man who goes on to master all the known types of magic to cure his ailment. But there's something to it that's more than tools. Rezo's... I want to say, expansive and systematic in a way few Bird secondaries ever reach, and he is also more nose-to-the-grindstone about it. Where Zelgadis picks up relevant tricks of the trade, Rezo just goes "well, if anything can fix this, it's magic." And he learns everything about magic. Not just what he thinks he needs to. He learns everything.

And the social side of how he works! Even though he doesn't really care for other people's blindness - at least at the point we see him in the first season of the anime - he acquires a reputation as one of the kindest mages, who goes on to heal other people in droves. It's this interesting combination - Rezo doesn't care about other people; but he also... Doesn't lie about his capabilities. He doesn't make up a Persona, the way Zel perhaps would have ("heartless swordsman!") Instead, he lets people project onto him and becomes what they need; he uses them for his own purposes but in a way that they are glad to be used.

He also doesn't keep people around for specific purposes. Bird secondaries have contacts; Rezo has minions and likely more than a few people who owe him their life and health. Even though he, too, has a lonely, ultimately selfish cause, he is enmeshed into Community to an extent Zelgadis would be terrified by.

And the way Zel gets through to him, when fighting Shabranigdo! "Do you really wish to destroy the world you wanted to see so much?" While I wrote earlier that Zel appeals to an Idealist morality here - and I think he does, Lion to Lion - I do think that this appeal also stirred the Badger, which is by its nature very global.

When Zel succeeds, Rezo doesn't bring down Shabranigdo from the inside. He holds him off. Endures. Just enough for Lina to do her thing.

This could be a Bird Secondary... But I think that's a Badger Secondary. In her description of the SHC archetypes, @wisteria-lodge calls the Lion/Badger "The Lynchpin", and notes how they are often the center of a wheel, and the center of events. Rezo would be an unusually non-group oriented Lynchpin - perhaps because we see him at a very desperate point - but the sheer amount of Things revolving around him certainly fits the bill. Also, the Lynchpin is a very common "Sleeper Villain" sorting, and what is Rezo if not that.

Tl;dr: the original Rezo, I think, is a Lion/Badger. Kopii-kun, on the other hand...

#shc #sortingtheslayers #rezo the red priest #akahoushi rezo #lion primary #badger secondary #sortinghatchats

[amai-no-ura]

I was sorted as lion primary a few times by people and the quiz, but I have such an irrational hate to that answer, it comes near to saying I hate myself and that part of me that makes everyone say that. Kind of a lion response probably. Maybe it's the way I thought the lion should work, and where it should lead me in the end, and that not working out, I'm not sure. There's a lot of other houses in me, and I could theoretically claim any and live there comfortably, but that wouldn't be the truth. I might stl be a lion, maybe not in the best shape even, and that thought would never abandon me. I have little hope that my reaction is fair and I'm not actually a lion, so is there anything you would think I could do to lessen this reaction and try to appreciate this primary? Sorry for this ramble, ignore this if needed. Thank you for your time.

There is the only way, from my experience.

Go out and live. Questioning this, obsessing over it won't give you any satisfaction. Go out and experience thing. Find a cause to fight for whether that's your ambition, your self-improvement, your dream job, your journey, whatever that is. Go out there, fall in love, get your heart broken, meet more people and befriend them. Get yourself out there and meet the hardship of life, the bitter sweet taste of failure and learn from it. From every moment of life.

There is no shortcut to any of these problems. The only way you can know yourself is by living a full life. And a full life isn't to live in a dank cellar pondering on question like this. It is to go out there and experience what life has to offer, good and bad. That's how you'll learn to know yourself and maybe love yourself.

There is no magic pill that will make you love yourself more or tell you who you are. Only your courage to live and learn from life will open the way for you.

@wisteria-lodge I can't think of other Lion Primary, do you have any advice for this anon?

#lion primary #sortinghatchats #sorting hat chats #housekeeping

[wisteria-lodge]

un-Burnt lion primary (snake model) + bird secondary

I feel like I've unburned and maybe got/dropped a new model or two and I would love to hear your opinion! I have a theory that either my primary or secondary (or a model?) is very loud and it’s confusing me.

Let's sort you out :D

I like debates and I love poking holes in other people’s logic (and my own as well). And I love playing the devil’s advocate, it’s one of my favourite pastimes, I sometimes argue against a point I actually agree with just because I can

I used to do this all the time. I was a menace in Sunday school. It's a very Bird secondary thing to do for sure... but the way you're describing it makes it sound a little like a toy. It's totally possibly you've got a beloved Bird secondary model here.

especially when somebody’s being very close-minded and self-righteous which drives me up the wall.

This little bit is making me lean Idealist primary. Like there's nothing so annoying as someone who hasn't considered it properly... but acts like they have.

Mind you, it’s usually with people who know me well and if it isn’t, I’d probably make it clear that I agree with the sentiment, just not the reasoning. Or that I’m just trying to see things from another perspective. Or I wouldn’t make it clear at all and watch the chaos unfold just for the hell of it (mind you, I wouldn’t do this if the topic was something important to me or if I had even the slightest interest of ever becoming friendly with this person).

You enjoy playing intellectual games with people you know or respect... and sometimes you also like to troll. Yeah, that's pretty much how it goes.

I never judge people based solely on what they believe in and I have a very low opinion of people who do. I think abortion is a basic right every woman should have but I can also think of several valid reasons why a person might be against it. You can’t infer who somebody is or what they believe in based on a single belief. I see people as people not as belief systems and I sure as hell don’t think of them in terms of good and evil.

Well, I would hope so. That's the entire premise of this entire system. That's why we're all here.

I'm interested in the two sentiments "somebody... being very close-minded and self-righteous... drives me up the wall." and "I never judge people based solely on what they believe in." Like maybe I'm being too much of a Lion here, but that definitely seems a judgement passed on people because of their beliefs. Or is it more how the beliefs are *presented* that annoys you? How they're *arrived* at?

That's my current working theory, and it's a very Bird primary worldview. 'Believe what you want, just be able to back it up, or I can't respect you.' 'Have "valid reasons" for thinking what you think.'

There is some Loyalist language here, though. "I see people not as belief systems" etc. So I'm keeping an eye on that.

We’re all only human and anybody who thinks you can be purely one or the other is being too idealistic for my taste and unable see the full picture.

Healthy Idealists don't think that. Thinking that people come only in the flavors "good" and "evil" is a very Exploded thing, and you get it with Exploded Birds, Exploded Lions, and Exploded Badgers as well. (It can also be a sign of an Immature Badger or Immature Bird. It's not a particularly sustainable, or healthy thing to think, is my point.)

However... it does sound like you've got someone in your life who relies on those talking points.

I value friendships above all else. Gaining my trust takes time but once you do, I’m extremely loyal. It takes a lot for me to end a friendship, if anything I’m too understanding and patient.

Hmm. Again with the Loyalist language. You like Loyalists, that's for sure. And I'm starting to think you want me to tell you that you're a Loyalist.

One thing I would never tolerate is people ignoring my boundaries. If a friend teases me about something that’s a sore spot once, that’s a mistake, I tell them not to do it again and forget it ever happened. If they ignore me and keep doing it or they start prying and demanding explanations why it’s a sore spot instead of just accepting it, that’s the end of the friendship and, as far as they’re concerned, I’m going to disappear off the face of the earth never to be heard from again.

So really, you value freedom and boundaries above all else. That's classically a Lion primary thing. This idea that safety exists in the ability to go off and do your own thing... and if you're doing your own thing alone that is /fine/

It's possible you're fiercely guarding your boundaries NOW after having been "too understanding and patient" in the past. Maybe you have (or used to have) Badger in your system. But for now, I'm reading Lion. Maybe one that's slightly burnt, and protective of themselves.

I’ve known a lot of people who love to tell me how I really feel or how I should feel or even who I am and I have zero tolerance for that.

OH. That's Lion. That focus on "how I feel IS me" and having this intense anger at anyone who pushes back against that.

I don’t need or want other people to tell me who I am, I know who I am, you can take it or leave it, I’m not going to apologise for it or pretend to be somebody else to fit the image others have of me.

This could be either Lion primary or Lion secondary, but the fact that we know that you love to troll, act a part, do a bit for fun... means that this sentiment is probably coming from your primary.

You can argue about what or how I think but you don’t get to tell me my feelings are wrong.

Lion primary, especially with how much emphasis this point is getting.

It takes a lot of trust before I open up to somebody and if their reaction is being dismissive or condescending, we can’t be friends.

That's a human thing.

I love my friends more than anything and that’s why I don’t immediately jump in to defend them. I trust them to take care of themselves and if they need my help, they can always ask for it but I’m not going to force it onto them.

I suspect that this is also a Lion primary thing. Lions value freedom more than anything, and so they show love by giving others freedom. You respect others by acknowledging that they know themselves best, and will ask for help if they need it.

(Actually, a *very common* Idealist/Loyalist miscommunication is when an Idealist views a Loyalist's "checking in" as being clingy/suspicious/infantilizing, and a Loyalist views an Idealist's "live and let live" as cold/uncaring/forgetful.)

I’ve had a lot of experience with exploded authoritarian badgers (I seem to attract all the unhealthy badger primaries within a ten-mile radius, lucky me eh)

Yeah, I thought you probably had some very binary black/white decision makers in your life.

so I’m very adamant about letting people make their own decisions and I expect the same in return. I don’t respond well to people trying to “help” me when I don’t want their help, it makes me feel weak and like I’m being treated like a child or an idiot. Actually, if somebody kept doing that, it might also end the friendship (though I guess you could put this one under ignoring boundaries too).

That's a human thing, but it's a human thing that would hit a Lion primary especially hard. Because offering to help a Lion who doesn't need help is going to feel very *personal,* very "you are not seeing/respecting the inner truth of my being" in a way it just wouldn't to a Badger, Lion, or Snake.

I’m reasonably good at planning but I don’t think it’s anything to do with my secondary, it’s just common sense and good time management.

I promise you, it doesn't feel that way to everyone. It feels that way to you... because you're a Bird secondary, or have a strong Bird secondary model.

I’m a decent cook and my favourite method is throw stuff in and see what happens but if I’m making an actual dish that exists for the first time, I’m going to look at the recipe. If I have 10+ exams in one week, I’ll make a list of what I need to study for first. My resources (time, money, patience) are limited and I’m not redoing something simple multiple times just because I refuse to be organised about it.

Bird bird bird bird rapid fire bird.

I love thinking on my feet. I generally believe that the best way out is through but I’m not going to stand there and bang my head against the wall when it’s clearly not working. I also know how to approach a problem from several angles and use my knowledge/skills to solve it (I have a lot of those because collecting knowledge and skills is so fun, their hypothetical usefulness is irrelevant as long as I’m enjoying the process). I try to always choose the right method for the problem.

🐦 🐦 🐦 🐦 🐦 🐦 🐦 🐦 🐦 🐦 

The one thing I want to point out is that if the problem is something important to me, I’m not going to do the whole which method would work best thing. That’s for boring, everyday stuff. If somebody is interfering with me (like that example with people ignoring my boundaries), I will dig my heels in and you’d have more luck convincing an entire mountain to move out of the way than getting me to budge even an inch. I might break but I will never bend.

... that's the Lion primary talking. Notice how you're not talking about problem solving/going about your life normally anymore. You're talking about metaphysical threats to who you are, what you stand for, and what you want.

The most typical example I can think of is if somebody does something I explicitly told them not to do and has the gall to act like I’m being ungrateful and irrational because clearly it’s for my own good, I just don’t know it, I will absolutely tear them apart and feel justified about it too. It’s one thing when it’s people I’m not that close to but I expect my friends to have the decency to stab me in the front. I need to be able to trust them and lying or pretending to be doing something for me when it’s clearly for their own benefit is the worst kind of betrayal (worst part is I would kill for my friends, so if they do or don’t want me to do something, for whatever reason, all they have to do is ask and I’ll most likely listen unless it’s something very important to me, in which case I would expect them to accept it anyway, because that’s what friends do –

'I need to be able to trust the people around me me. If they ask me not to do/not do something, I'll do it unless it's one of the things that I really care about. And then if they don't accept that, it's a dealbreaker.'

Very Lion primary.

this obviously only applies to the person I'm closest to (usually one), it’s like a special privilege if you will, I do what I want but I will take into consideration the opinion of this one person because I care about them so much).

I'm willing to believe that you've probably built a Snake primary model for this one person. That makes sense, and it also helps make sense of why you love the fierce loyalty you tend to see with Snake so much.

Sorry there’s not a lot of (any?) concrete real-life examples but my mind went completely blank for some reason. I think writing this helped me figure it out myself (I’m still unsure about the models) but I’d still love to find out what you think!

I think that you're a Lion primary who was probably Burned at some point in the past. (It's very possible that you modeled Exploded Badger primary.) You started to adopt some of the Bird primary language that is common to a lot of Burnt Lion primaries, and it's also possible that you latched onto your Snake Person, who was a much more positive influence than all the Authoritarian Badgers in your life. Currently your primary isn't Burnt, but it is... protective, and very careful not to put itself in situations where Burning becomes likely.

And you're a Bird secondary. Very loud Bird secondary.

#sortinghatchats #shc #burnt lion primary #lion primary #bird secondary #lion bird #authoritarian badger #exploded primary #snake primary model

[reds-burrow]

my sister, a Lion Primary: y'know how when you're little, you want to be Special

me, a Badger Primary: sure

sister: and then you grow up and realize you aren't The Hero who is going to vanquish the world's evils--

me, thinking Special meant being someone who could help others no matter what the problem, not being the Chosen One, fighting for the soul of humanity: wait what

#all this talk of Lions and glory reminded me of a conversation from a few months back #sortinghatchats #badger primary #lion primary #badger vs lion primary #felt primaries

[arizonaraine]

Sorting Hat Chats: Zootopia

(Have I talked about how much I love this movie? Because I love this movie.)

Judy Hopps might be the Lion-i-est Lion primary to ever Lion. Seriously. From the time she's a little girl, she has this internal conviction that she needs to "make the world a better place." She loves her family in Bunnyburrow, but is perfectly fine with heading out on her own, moving to the big city to fulfill her dreams. Her passion, her drive, is internal and idealistic. She believes so much in the idea of Zootopia. It guides her decisions, the advice she gives, and the way she treats other people. When she acts out of line with her values-- her careless comments about predators are used as justification for mistreating them by the media and by Bellweather-- it eats her up inside. She resigns from the police department and moves home, but is despondent. She's on the verge of burning until her conversation with her parents and Gideon Gray, which proves to her that 1. her idealism made a change in their lives and 2. the fight isn't over! Her Lion spark is reignited, and she speeds off to Zootopia to make things right. She ends the story a more mature Lion: recognizing that "life is more complicated than a slogan on a bumper sticker," but still working to make that dream of Zootopia true.

I think she's a Badger Secondary. Yes, she can be a shouty and charge-y like a Lion, but I think that her real strength is connecting with the people around her. Like Captain America, she creates assets. She uses Nick's street smarts and leverages her connection with Bellweather to access the Jam Cams at City Hall. She and Nick are saved from being iced by the mobster because of the warmth and kindness with which she treats his daughter. She also showcases the Bookkeeper aspect of this secondary through her nose-to-the-grindstone, "I'm not going to write 100 tickets, I'm going to write 200 tickets before noon!" approach to becoming a cop.

Nick Wilde starts the story a burned Badger primary. The childhood trauma that forged him was being rejected by a group. All he wanted was to join the Junior Ranger Scouts: he was excited to put on a uniform and be part of their community. When he's bullied for being a predator, he burns. He looks sort of like a Snake when Judy first meets him-- kinda hedonistic, only looking out for himself-- but as the story progresses, his true Badger self starts to shine through. He knows everyone: Otterton the florist, the mob boss, Flash the sloth... He stands up for Judy to Boggo. He's a mix of trepidatious and excited when Judy suggests that he join the police force. He refuses to abandon her when she's injured, insisting that they come up with another plan. And in the end, he joins the force! He's finally part of a community.

I'm going use Occam's Razor here and say that he's a Snake secondary. One could argue that he's just modeling Snake because that's what's expected of foxes, but I don't see enough evidence of another secondary, so I'm going for the simplest explanation for now. Nick is good at improvising. He's great at taking information and using the environment around him to shape the outcome he wants. When he first meets Judy, he plays her like a violin. "It's called a hustle, sweetheart." He sells skunk-butt rugs to the mobster. His whole popsicle scam?? Snake, snake, snake. He can talk his way out of pretty much any corner. He can go neutral-state blunt on people, but most of the time, he's charming as hell. Judy teasingly calls him "slick Nick."

TL;DR

Judy Is a shining Lion who grows into a more mature version of her primary by the end, with a Badger secondary that uses hard work and the people around her to accomplish her mission.

Nick starts out a burned Badger primary who eventually finds a home with Judy and the police department. His Snake secondary might just be him playing to what people already think foxes are-- I'd love to hear arguments for another secondary!-- but he seems to use these tools naturally.

#sorting hat chats #shc #lion primary #badger secondary #burned badger primary #snake secondary #zootopia #judy hopps #nick wilde

[mooglesorts]

i have not been active on this blog in a While and being very normal about my old hyperfixation lorien legacies, which has an absolute fuckload of characters to sort, has finally gotten me to crawl out of my hole.

[spoilers ahead for both lorien legacies and its sequel series!]

there is a LOT of ground to cover here, and i am mostly going to limit myself to sorting characters and themes from the first series, but my initial notes are:

probably one of the biggest overarching themes of the series is toxic birdsec, and the harm it can do to every aspect of a society or a person's life--on both a systematic level and an individual one--right down to their basic humanity. by extension it also goes into similarly fucked up lion and bird primary used as weapons and tools of abuse, and how they interplay with each other.

a large part of this stems from setrákus ra being The Worst Fucking Lion Bird Ever to Live, lmao. he's an interesting example of birdsec interplaying with cannibal badger, and also of a lion bird who's a cheetah in that he uses systems as tools to manipulate people instead of actually believing them. he hands out toxic systems like candy while peppering them with outright lies, and blithely admits that even the one that he's put centuries into building--mogadorian progress, and the great book--is at its heart just a ruse to run his cult on. the truth he pretends to worship and champion isn't external, objective truth--it's an extension of him. he is the ultimate truth. and the only truth he believes in is his cause, which is that he has the right and ability to own, make use of, and do whatever he sees fit with everything in existence. everyone and everything that could possibly be a shiny or a tool belongs to him.

one of the other overarching themes is toxic badger primary and secondary--cannibal badgering AHOY--as well as toxic lion primary, and it is a great deal less intentional than the bird cautionary tale part lmao

five is a bird snake with deeply toxic lion primary and bird secondary models, one of which he picked up after getting involved with a cult, and one of which he's had since his abusive birdsec guardian started amputating his masks by trying to apply actor bird to them. :') his brand of birdsplode and snakeburn make him horribly, horribly vulnerable to the cult, especially combined with focused, one-on-one gaslighting and manipulation from setrákus himself, and he has to burn his bird right to a crisp to break away from it. i am very biased and i have so much to say about my boy, but i plan to go in depth about this later

there are a LOT of lionsecs among the loric garde kids. the only surviving ones who aren't lionsecs are marina's badger and five's snake (the latter of which is heavily villainized, lol); number one is either a lionsec or a snakesec, maggie is either a birdsec or a badgersec, and we don't really see enough of hannu to be sure, but my guess is badgersec. in context, whatever these books are saying here i am not sure i like it lmao

this stands in contrast to the non-garde allies, minus adam, who end up being Part of the Gang. sam and lexa are birdsecs, and sarah and malcolm are both badgersecs.

speaking of adam, he is a lion snake with a cool, calculated double bird performance/model, who has been waiting all his life for a chance to go Absolutely Feral. there are a lot of ways in which he's a real shithead, which track given his life and circumstances up to then but are also real 😬 sometimes, but like, good for him. go ape shitt, kid

nine is an awful, AWFUL double lion who models/performs the worst parts of badger primary; he also uses lionsec stereotypes and methods to misdirect people, so that he can hurt, gaslight, prey on, and abuse them. it's genuinely interesting how he does it, and i could go on for a long time about it, but it's also Infuriating because the authors really want you to love him for being a ~charming jerk with a heart of gold,~ so that is for another post. in the sequel series he also picks up a nasty posthumous birdsec model from sandor to gleefully torture children with so lmfao

there seem to be a lot of birdsecs and badgersecs among the mentor cêpans, which tracks, because, well, mentors. interestingly, it seems to be a pattern so far that the birdsec mentors are either some of the most deeply abusive among them (see: rey, sandor, and ethan even though he's an unofficial cêpan), or the most decent parents of them under the circumstances (see: katarina).

john is a hognose (badgery snake) 'i live here' snake lion, and a VERY loud one. he's set on saving the world mainly a) in order to save his People, or b) because it's what they would want. he also believes STRONGLY in snake values as applied to other people, and absolutely cannot grok that anyone would feel differently--he holds back on killing a major enemy because he's worried about killing a friendly acquaintance's Person--and honestly he can be kind of a huge dick about it lmao. he burns HARD at the end of the first series when sarah dies; in the second, he copes by making an entire community into his circle and no longer gives a shit about the rest of the world outside it, including groups who are in similar if not worse circumstances than his community. Horrific War Crimes Ensue!

rex is an everyone double badger and i love him so much. i love him So Much. he is a wonderful example of how to write a morally dubious character whose dodgy qualities interest me instead of making me grit my teeth and Tolerate Them. his arc could have fixed So Much of the Ending's Bullshit and i will be forever mad that they dumped it in the trash

there is more, oh my god there's so much more, this series has SO many characters in it, but this is a start thank you for coming to my ted talk

#lorien legacies #sortinghatchats #sorting hat chats #LL group tag #lion primary #bird primary #snake primary #bird secondary #lion secondary #badger secondary #snake secondary #bird primary model #bird secondary model #badger primary model #hognose #cheetah #superb bird #manul #toxic primaries #toxic secondaries #there is a lot going on here lmao #LL tag

[sevilemar]

I put your two asks into one post, nonny, because it's easier for me this way.

I have to say Idealist Media confuses the heck out of me, like V is for Vendetta for example. I've seen other Idealist vibe with that movie, and I feel like I'm sitting in a corner, not getting it and having only silence radiating from me. There's no connection there.

That's not a bad thing. Some things just don't work for us, and that's OK. We are allowed to have different opinions on things.

I don't remember much about V for Vendetta, except that I did find something in it that worked for me, or that I found interesting. There is a million things it could be though, and most of them have nothing to do with shc. And since I have no possibility to re-watch it atm, I couldn't tell you what it was.

Loyalist media is my jam. I could rewatch the Witcher 1st season over and over, I love the characters (except for the idealist one, but she'smore annoying than not) when snake Jaskier asks Gerald is he maybe short of a marble for going to rescue a crazy witch, that's my jam.

Season one of Witcher is pretty awesome, I agree. I love how the fight in Blaviken was filmed, and Geralt, Jaskier and Yennefer and their dynamic are to die for. Also, yay for fantasy that's based on a different cultural background, something I feel more at home in.

I hate being called an idealist, I think all the ideals I'm ready to argue over even with my family and friends are based not around ideals but around people and some group I find a slight personal connection with being hurt. Personal, people based, but in idealist language.

OK, let's get something straight: the shc terminology is not the best when we're looking at the idealist/loyalist divide. Framing it like that suggests that 'loyalists' have no ideals, and that 'idealists' are not concerned about people, or even that ideals cannot concern the people in front of you. Which is all bullshit, of course. Being loyal to the people in front of you is very much an ideal, for example.

That's why I think shc needs new words for it, to be honest. In my experience, 'idealists' look for the bigger picture (as many people as possible, the system we live in, etc.) because they believe that affecting as many people as they can is the best way to achieve whatever their goals are.

They get strength from believing that whatever they are doing, they are hopefully affecting a lot of people. That's why I like to call them big picture thinkers.

'Loyalists' look for the people closest to them, because they believe that affecting them as directly as they can is the best way to achieve their goals. And because not every goal has a direct and noticeable impact, their goals are usually much smaller in scope.

They get their strength from having as much immediate and concrete impact on whoever is around them, and being there to see it. That's why I like to call them concrete thinkers.

I am not perfectly happy with this definition either, but maybe it can help you see the whole idealist/loyalist thing from a different angle, nonny, and take away some of the negativity around the words that I can read in your asks.

But I can't be a loyalist, I have no people of my own, I have no group loyalties,

Just because you do not have people or groups does not mean you cannot build your morality around them, nonny. I am a snake primary, whether I have people or not.

and I will argue with my conservative mom or brothers and friends over lgbtq rights (personal - I'm ace and probably bi, woyh gender stuff on top), over stray cats (my own sweetie was one) or the importance to wear a mask (it makes sence, just like ecology does - our actions, our plastic filled lifestyle naturally has to have consequences), I will argue even more strongly with anyone over my boundaries and holding principles, like children should not be allowed to pet stranger's dogs they see in the streets just because they're children and they don't know a word no (I hate to be used and people like to dump their stuff without my consent and family and friendship interactions become boring and more like work).

Arguing and standing up for what you believe in does not automatically mean you're a lion primary, or even any kind of big picture thinker, nonny. Lion secondaries often like to argue as well, no matter their primary, and/or people who have learned to do it from their surroundings, or who had to learn for their survival.

Though the things you list are pretty big picture things in my experience. And especially when you defend them against your loved ones like you're describing.

You know, I might be even a bit frightened by V is for Vendetta. Maybe I'm bird and this lion movie really hits the wrong idealist spot for me? What do you think with your experience?

Might be? From what I remember it's pretty intensely lion primary, and intensity can be scary.

I think a good question to ask yourself would be what exactly it is about the movie that makes you feel that way? Because you cannot deny that it sparked something in you, something I think would be worthwile following up on for a bit.

Part 2: A follow up to loyalist vs Idealist wall of text. I can't be a bird, my emotional responses come first and foremost, and the questioning and the need to question if ever comes second.

Alright, sounds good to me.

I think I hate being idealist, especially lion, bcs I can see that even if this is the quickest and most accessible way to see, understand and interact with the world, it's not the most effective, or accurate way. I don't wish I could trust my instincts more, I wish there would be a better and more correct way, that would work as quick as your gut instincts, but would also take into account your surroundings and would give you good and correct info, and also would make you feel good and okay too.

Maybe my lion, if I'm one, is burned and so tired of being seen wrong that it just doesn't want to be one, it just wants to have something better and more effective, more pragmatic. I guess snakes are pragmatic, while badgers have a touch of niceness on top of it all.

I'm still made about that V movie, why would you torture someone to get them to see your ideals? He had to leave them alone and go figure how to do it all by himself. And they're not angry at him after all if it, after all that crap he pulled out? Nonsense.

I don't think your lion primary is burned, nonny, not yet. I think it still knows very well what right and wrong is for you. It might be a bit of a wild guess, but I think it's your lion secondary that is burned, not your lion primary. And that means your lion primary has lost its voice, has lost its ability to make others understand in a manner that works well and also feels right.

And roaring truths into a void like that would make anyone tired. What do you think, nonny?

#i really hope i'm not projecting too much #but i do feel like i have seen something like this in a friend #sortinghatchats #ask answers #lion primary #lion secondary #maybe

[the-phoenix-heart]

wait, what is neville's sorting?? is he a lion/badger? badger/lion? lion/lion? badger/badger? please tell me

For any of you confused: here is the system I am using ( @wisteria-lodge )

Neville's sorting is one of those ubiquitous sortings that has been around since the start, but since the original post doesn't exist anymore it doesn't hurt repeating.

Neville is a Lion primary. A burnt one for much of the series. He's bad often bad at magic, he's awkward, and severely bullied by the Slytherins and Snape.

We first see hints of the person Neville is going to be at the end of the first book, when he stands up to the golden trio because he thinks what they're doing is more trouble making. It's shakey, but he manages to do it, and is later rewarded for it.

It isn't until the fifth book that we really see Neville start to unburn. He finally finds a cause to fight for, Dumbledore's Army. We see Neville's determination to live up to his parents, and to avenge them against Bellatrix. To fight the death eaters. By the end of the book series Neville has full confidence in himself and is unburnt. He can wield the sword of Gryffindor and prove to himself that he was worthy of being in Gryffindor, and that he embodied that spirit.

(We never see the characters in the books or movies, but I think if we ever did see them that Rowena, Godric, Helga, and Salazar would all be double sortings reflective of their houses.)

His secondary is Badger. Neville is more notably sweet and kind, but he also likes working. He practices heavily in Order of the Phoenix, and he's a herbologist, which is an activity which takes a great deal of patience and hard work. Also, it was a movie-only scene, but him practicing his dancing was very cute.

I won't say he is burnt, but he doesn't think highly of his secondary. In the first book he thinks he'll go to Hufflepuff because he's a bit of a softie (everybody just hates Hufflepuffs in the books), and is blindsided when he is put in Gryffindor.

I think he wishes he had that Lion secondary like most of the other kids in his house. At the end of the first book he raises his fists and says he'll fight them, but Hermione immediately petrifies him. It doesn't help that he wasn't very good at potions and Snape is just the worst teacher. Potions class is a very precise science done in a time crunch and especially in Snape's you do not get second chances. You have to get things right on the first try.

All this to say that Neville...actually I think his secondary is burnt as well. He's running around trying to do what he can, but when everyone is constantly telling you you're bad at everything and you are the butt of everyone's joke, you're going to start to believe it and believe your methods really aren't valid. Honestly, I think that talk Mad Eye (Barty Crouch JR) has with Neville helps him to unburn. In the movie and the next book he's more confident with his skills in herbology and accepting more of his own methods.

So...

Neville Longbottom - Burnt Lion Primary/Burnt Badger Secondary, both of these unburn over the course of the series

#sorting hat chats #sortinghatchats #lion primary #badger secondary #neville longbottom #harry potter

[thcorvi]

help? shc :)

ok, so since doing the @sortinghatchats for the 1st time (I've done way too many bc at this point I simply don't know and I cant move on from this), I have always gotten either bird primary or lion primary — and the same dilemma on the secondaries.

after it, I went on a rampage reading everything I could find on this (think superfocus, yes... I have adhd) and... still don't know. like, the intuitive/decided and the internal/external is what's getting to me.

it sounds silly, but I need to sort this out. I need an outsider perspective for someone who understands how SHC works.

#shc #shc community #bird primary #lion primary #sortinghatchats #hp #harry potter

[mysticalenthusiastvoid]

I'm bored, so I'm going to sort some characters from my science fantasy series.

The younger sister: Bird Primary, Snake Secondary - Ends up in our dimension or a version of it after her sister saves her. After recieving some culture shocks and being lucky enough to be found by people who take her in, she adapts to this world. (She's only twelve when she comes here.) She's always searching for truth and wants things to make sense, which ties into her eventual career as a physicist. I'm leaning towards Snake sec for her since for plot reasons she has to find ways around or not telling the truth about her origins. She is also used to having to read people or a room and adjusting accordingly. Has Bird and Badger sec models she built for her parental figures and for achieving her goals.

Older sister - Snake Bird who burns after she thinks she killed her sister and unburns as she starts to recover from some of her trauma/alcoholism and realizes she didn't kill her sister.

Younger sister's daughter - Lion Primary, Unknown Secondary. She burns as a child due to having clairvoyant abilities and not knowing why she knows things or getting in trouble for knowing things she shouldn't.

Younger sister's husband - Lion Primary, Badger Secondary. I think Lion Primary because when he feels like something is wrong, it's wrong and he's not changing his mind. Badger Sec because he will grind as long as he needs to and invests a lot of time in caretaking and in his community. His twin brother is a Lion Bird who works for the CIA and wishes his twin would also put his clairvoyant abilities to use like he does.

#My science fantasy characters #sorting hat chats #bird secondary #snake secondary #badger secondary #bird primary #lion primary #snake primary

[sunnyhatchats]

lion primary/bird secondary meme

#sortinghatchats #it's always sunny in philadelphia #lion primary #bird secondary #Youtube

[thelongestway]

Sorting Log Horizon: Shiroe (Double Bird, Lion Primary model) and Kanami (Double Lion, Bird Primary model)

Shiroe of Log Horizon is a Double Bird. Kanami is a Double Lion. /endthread.

But really, let's get into some more details. Shiroe is the point of view character for most of Log Horizon. He's the rare main character who is essentially a support. The class he chose, Enchanter, is magically weak, and shines when others take advantage of its abilities... Sounds like a Badger? Nope. The reason Shiroe chose that class was that he identified that he had a problem with trusting others and decided to learn how to do that by putting himself in a position where he'd have to rely on others to succeed, and also in a position where he'd have to squeeze out every last advantage to win. And succeed he does--but not only through direct contribution, but through strategy. Shiroe is quick to observe patterns and is able to hold an insane amount of variables in his head, keeping up with the status effects of a 24-man raid on the fly at the same time as calculating boss mechanics. By being in a support position, he is ideally placed to have a Bird's eye view of the battlefield. At the same time, Shiroe has a hard time identifying his own goals. He's much better at executing than at goal-setting, at least until he's seen the situation. When left with no input, he flounders - until he can get that input. He also has a few, mostly Badger-related, hangups about the methods available to him. Before the show's official beginning, Shiroe's a loner who has few real friends and is generally wary of organized groups. When he started out, he joined an informal group, which avoided ranks and distinctions - and which also had the Double Lion Kanami as its leader. In the show, Kanami is initially mostly defined by her absence - but even that absence itself is defined by the way in which she determines goals and Charges, easily leading people in a distinctly Lion way. Kanami wants to clear the hardest raid? She's not joining established groups; she's getting people together and going. Kanami wants to move to Europe and have a kid? She switches tracks and does that, completely turning her life around. And when Kanami does finally show up again, she resolves the current struggle Shiroe has by simply saying "THIS is what I want", and giving him enough input to crystallize his strategy. Her internal moral compass is something that Shiroe lacks, and that he also consciously works on emulating. At the same time, Kanami also thinks back to Shiroe and his brilliance in execution when she needs to. She knows what she wants; she does not necessarily know how to get it - and she learns from him. Shiroe, in turn, learns from Kanami - and when the show starts, he is perfectly capable of staking out a place of his own, because he wants to, and is capable of holding a group together, even though he definitely finds it much, much easier to be in Strategist mode than in Leader mode. I'd say that these two model Lion and Bird Primaries respectively - and they model them off each other.

#shc #sorting log horizon #sortinghatchats #character sorting #shiroe #bird primary #bird secondary #kanami #lion primary #lion secondary

[amai-no-ura]

Typology - Gangubai Kathiawadi (from Netflix)

MBTI: ENTJ (a great potrayal of Te-dom and Ni user)

Enneagram: 8w9 so/sp (836)

Sorting: Double Lion

First, I really admire this character. I will not comment on the real person because I do not know enough about her. But as it stands, I admire this character.

I can relate to her in so many aspect. I respect how she turns her pain into strength. And how she fights not just for herself but for 4,000 women of Kamathipura who depend on her. She is a selfless idealist who fights for her people when the world want to tear them down. I cannot respect this enough. If you ask me what kind of person I want to be, it's someone like her (as a character). And she reignites the flame in my heart as well.

But enough conjectures.

Gangubai is a Te-dom. She is a no-nonsense business woman who focuses on the bottom line and profit. She is a very kind and empathic woman but also a ruthlessly pragmatic and logical one. She never let her personal sentiment standing in the way of what needs to be done. She sacrificed her lover to save a young girl from prostitution and further her standing in Kamathipura politics. She bravely got into a room with a sadistic rapist who 'bought' her so she could bring him to justice. While she doesn't talk much about her feelings, she show it through her action. She is one of those 'enough emotions' people. Since her Fi is inferior, she rarely indulges in it. Instead, she prefers to problem solve and get things done for people she loves. She shows how she cares by being of service to her people and uphold her values through actions. But on a rare occasion, we get to see how much pain she has inside of herself such as when she called her mother... That was a sad scene.

But she is also highly abstract and symbolic. She ruminated on cremating 'Ganga' because now she is 'Gangu'. She stated to her madam that she will 'become queen of Kamathipura'. Then she went on to talk about different shade of white in a highly abstract way to infer her meaning. Her speech is often straightforward, but also subversive in that she finds a way of thinking no one thinks about (A brothel is a bad influence for the school. Wouldn't a school be good influence for a brothel?) All this point to strong intuition. And her intuition is a focused, single-minded, narrowing everything down kind of intuition, which is Ni. She also shows strong but underutilized Se. She enjoys good time and sensory thing but also not very active and impulsive in her decision making.

Her enneagram is also very simple. She is an 8w9 - fearless and calm in every situation. She doesn't charm people so much as strong arming them and demonstrate her power so she can come out on top. (The scene when she sat on a missionary is hilarious, what a power move). When she wants something, she just marches in and expects it to be done. And if they don't comply, she just put more and more pressures on them until they cave. (And as a 9w8, man I wish I could do this more, it's refreshing!) She is so/sp. Her focus is on larger society first before her own needs. She identifies with the group and takes on a role of 'mama bear' and protect them, fight for them. Which is also why I relate to her so much, as an so/sp with strong 8 wing...

And she is double Lion. Ganguji is fiery, assertive and fearless. She knows her values and isn't afraid to stand up against anyone for what she believes is right. She champions the right of her people, not out of a sense of duty or obligations, but out of genuine belief in the rightness of her cause and dignity of her profession. While she can be subtle, her go to method is usually 'do this, or else'. Which demonstrates exactly what a cunning and intelligent Lion secondary would look like. She is planful, cunning and very pragmatic. But she is also ... honest. She is very honest and straightforward in everything she does.

She doesn't beat around the bush and manipulate. She simply states it as it is 'if you value your life, you better do as I say'. And she is an improvisational secondary to the core. When she had to deliver a speech, instead of using a pre-prepped one. She just tore it and said what's in her heart. And it got people rolling.\

All in all, a compelling character and someone I respect.

#sortinghatchats #lion primary #enneagram #mbti #gangubai kathiawadi #housekeeping

[wisteria-lodge]

Bird vs Lion (Javert vs Valjean)

I've been wanting to annotate this scene for ages, because it's SUCH a good example of a really loud Lion primary (Valjean) and a really loud Bird primary (Javert) just being... unable to communicate. And since everyone is reading Les Mis right now, I thought this would be a good time.

So. Inspector Javert has just arrested Fantine, who has insulted Valjean (in the guise of Mayor Madeleine) on her way into custody.

***

“Sergeant!” [Javert] shouted. “Can’t you see this hussy [Fantine] is making off! Who told you not to let her go?”

“I did,” said Madeleine. (...) 

It was obvious that Javert had been ‘knocked through a loop,’ as they say, to have allowed himself to say what he did to the sergeant after the mayor’s invitation to set Fantine free (...) Had he wound up telling himself that it was not possible for any person of authority to have given such an order and that Monsieur le maire must certainly have said one thing when he meant another altogether? Or else… did he tell himself that it was necessary to resort to extreme measures… and that, in this dire extremity, law and order, morality, governance, society as a whole, were personified in himself, Javert? 

Whatever the case, when Monsieur Madeleine let out that “I did” we heard a moment ago, the inspector of the police was seen to turn towards Monsieur le maire, pale, cold, his lips blue, his eyes desperate, his whole body shaking with a barely perceptible tremor, and he was heard to say something unprecedented: “Monsieur le maire, that can’t be done.” 

Poor Javert is having two equally important parts of his system collide here. ‘Respect all authority figures’ and ‘punish all criminals.’ In this moment, he can’t find a way to do both simultaneously, and it’s sort of breaking his brain. 

“How’s that?” said Monsieur Madeleine.

Madeleine (Valjean) does not get what his problem is.

“This wretched woman insulted a gentleman.” 

She broke the Law! (Objectively true.)

“Inspector Javert,” Monsieur Madeleine replied in a calm, conciliatory tone, “listen. You are an honest man, so I don’t mind spelling things out clearly for you. It’s like this. I happened to be crossing the square as you were carting this woman away. There were still people milling around, I asked a few questions and I found out the truth: it is the gentleman that was in the wrong, and if the police were doing their job, he should have been arrested.” 

The lady only technically broke the law, for understandable reasons. 

She broke the Law!!!!!!!!!

Javert could not stop himself: “This miserable creature just insulted Monsieur le maire.” 

She insulted you, the mayor, a symbol of authority. It is a VERY important part of my system that authority figures need to be respected for society to function.

“That’s my business,” said Monsieur Madeleine. “My insult is mine, if you like. I can do what I like with it.” 

I’m not personally upset about it, I don’t see why you care. 

“I beg Monsieur le maire’s pardon. The insult is not his, it belongs to the system of justice.”

She must be made an example of. People can NOT be allowed to get away with this, especially not to a symbol of authority/structure/governance. No matter how much you PERSONALLY may not be bothered by this specific incident, she MUST be made an example of or others will follow suit and the morals of society begin to crumble. How can you, a man such as yourself, not understand this? You sir. The mayor who has done so much for this town and whom I respect for both his accomplishments and authority? Do my eyes and ears betray me? Surely they must?"

“Inspector Javert,” replied Monsieur Madeleine, “the highest form of justice is one’s own conscience. I’ve heard the woman out. I know what I’m doing.” 

EXCUSE ME? What? No. Why would you think that? That's not how any of this works.

“And I, Monsieur le maire, don’t know what I am seeing.” 

*brain is broken* 

“Then make due with obeying.” 

I don’t know what your deal is. Do you need direct orders to respond to or something? (Valjean is very Badger secondary, you can see it start to kick into gear here, he’s trying to find ANY way to communicate with Javert.) 

“I’m obeying my duty. My duty tells me that this woman should do six months behind bars.” 

I am REMINDING you of the law, which you ALSO have a responsibility to. 

Monsieur Madeleine responded gently: “Listen to me carefully. She will not do a single day.” 

… I feel that the law is wrong. 

At these decisive words, Javert risked a glare at the mayor and said to him, though in a tone of voice that was still scrupulously respectful: 

because you still must RESPECT AUTHORITY

“It causes me despair to go against Monsieur le maire, this is the first time in my life, but he will deign to permit me to observe to him that I am within the bounds of my responsibilities. I will confine myself, since Monsieur le maire wishes it, to the case of the citizen in question. 

He's changing the way he perceives Valjean in that quick, dramatic way Birds do. The Mayor is SUPPOSED to be on the side of Law, just like Javert... but has let him down. And Javert (under stress) is just going to get even more icy and even more polite. 

Valjean (under stress) gets angry.

“I was there. This girl threw herself at Monsieur Bamatabois, who is a voter and the owner of a magnificent house with a balcony on the corner of the esplanade, three stories, all in hewn stone. At the end of the day, some things count for something in this world.” 

We’re starting to get more of a sense of Javert’s system here. People have roles/symbols/functions in society, which must be respected if society is to stay intact. (Also, Victor Hugo was obsessed with architecture, and you can tell that he’s a Bird primary who… absolutely identified with Javert, which is honestly probably why he comes down so hard on Javert in the text.) 

“Anyhow, Monsieur le maire, this matter is a case for the street patrol and so it concerns me, and I am holding this woman, Fantine.” 

The structures that I believe in say that this situation is the responsibility of the Law. Stop getting in the way of my duty to enact this vital societal function. (I respect you a whole lot less than I did five minutes ago.)

At these words Monsieur Madeline folded his arms and said in a harsh voice that no one in town had ever yet heard: “The case you are talking about is a matter for the municipal police. By the terms of articles nine, fifteen, and sixty-six of the code of criminal law, I am the judge of it. I order this woman to be set free.” 

Oh screw you. If you want letter of the law I will GIVE you letter of the law. (This is one of the places where aggressive Bird secondary model Valjean shows up. He *knows* how to do his job.)

Javert struggled to make one last stand. "But Monsieur le maire -” 

Valjean just threw the book at him, and the book is holy. There’s not much Javert can do here. Valjean might as well be quoting Bible verses. 

“Let me refer you to article eighty-one of the law of December 13, 1799 on arbitrary detention.” 

Yeah. I’m not going to waste time with you. 

“Monsieur le Maire, allow -” 

“Not another word.” 

I’m pissed now. 

“But - ”

“Not another word” 

I’m PISSED now.

Javert took the blow standing, full on and bang in the chest like a Russian soldier. He bowed practically to the ground to Monsieur le maire, and left.  

And Javert ends the scene experiencing a contradiction in his System that is physically painful for a bird as rigidly dedicated as he is. Honestly a huge part of the tragedy of this guy is that a fix-it is *so plausible.* Javert is so earnest, and tries so hard, and you get the impression that if he had a few more interactions like this he might have been able to transform his system into something more elastic.

#les miserables #inspector javert #javert #jean valjean #sortinghatchats #shc #the brick #bird primary #lion primary #bird primary vs lion primary #javert character analysis #javert meta #les mis

[reds-burrow]

Talking with my sister (Lion/Badger) about Lion Primaries and glory-seeking, and she had the insight that glory is about getting positive credit and appreciation for your actions. In essence, it's about being told "you were right," which reinforces to the Lion that their internal compass led them in the correct moral direction. Of course, everyone likes being reassured that they're right (and everyone can desire glory), but this is possibly why it's so common in young Lions who are still learning to trust their feelings.

Then again, young Loyalist Primaries have different priorities (pleasing who is important to them), and young Birds generally can't take credit for their first system being right because they usually get their first system from other people...

Anyway, what do you think Lion Primaries? Does this sound right? Or is there another reason you think glory-seeking is associated so strongly with Lion Primaries?

#anyone can answer of course #but I'm especially curious what Lions think of this #lion primary #sortinghatchats