#and why i dropped grrm's books

[pessimisticpigeonsworld]

On the "Choose a Side" Discourse

With HBO leaning veryyyy heavily into "pick a side" for their promos, the "no team" people are crawling out of the woodwork. I want to preface this post by saying that I'm not saying people shouldn't have favorite characters who aren't mine, nor that people should just be totally invested in fandom discourse.

I already made a post about the issues with the arguments of the "no team" people, so I'll just summarize my thoughts from that real quick. A majority of their arguments and metas are thinly veiled anti Rhaenyra thoughts. That's still true of this new wave of this group.

Now, one thing I will agree with them on is: GRRM did not write this story to be one of choose a side. However, that is not because the Blacks and the Greens are equally bad or the Targaryens are all evil. No, it's because the Greens were always in the wrong and GRRM makes this abundantly clear to us in F&B.

Let's look at some facts from the Dance. While male primogeniture is tradition, it's not the law; the king's word is law, something ASOIAF has established time and again. The Greens took the throne through underhanded ways. They left Viserys' body to rot for days while they prepared for Aegon's coronation to prevent Rhaenyra from learning and coming to KL. They forced the smallfolk to attend and most didn't cheer for Aegon, with some even calling for Rhaenyra while most were confused and angry.

Aemond drew first blood by killing the unarmed thirteen year old envoy, Lucerys Velaryon. A majority of the realm declared for Rhaenyra; 53 houses supported her, while only 28 supported Aegon. The Greens committed the greatest atrocities of the Dance: Aemond burning the Riverlands and Daeron massacring Tumbleton. They also committed the greater number of atrocities.

The Greens also lost the war. The Blacks weren't just fighting for Rhaenyra, they fought for her heirs as well. This is why they swore to her and Jacaerys; later for Aegon III after the deaths of his older brothers. The Black forces continued to fight after Rhaenyra's murder and took KL. Aegon was murdered by his own men when the Blacks were marching on KL; in other words, the Greens knew they were beat, so they killed Aegon in an attempt to save themselves. Since Aegon left no heirs aside from Jaehaera, Aegon III was crowned and married to Jaehaera. The Blacks won the war.

Aegon the Usurper's bloodline is destroyed with the deaths of Jaehaera and Gaemon Palehair. This is the final affirmation of the Greens being in the wrong. GRRM's books punish usurpers by wiping out their bloodlines; Maegor and Robert Baratheon being the most obvious examples. Aegon and all the Greens have no descendants, their bloodline is dead.

Rhaenyra's bloodline, on the other hand, continues all the way through to the main series. Daenerys Targaryen, the most powerful character in the series, is her descendant, as is Jon Snow (unconfirmed as of now in the books) who is another of the key five. Rhaenyra may have died, but her faction won the war and her bloodline will save the world through her two greatest descendants (alongside the rest of the key five).

The Dance of the Dragons is, ultimately, a story of the damage the patriarchy does and how misogyny is destructive to the world. The Dance caused the death of the dragons and a great loss of power for women in the realm. Queen consorts after Rhaenyra had markedly less power and there was a drop in female leaders of the great houses. The loss of the dragons caused the weakening of magic in the world as a whole.

The Dance isn't about who your favorite war criminal is, nor is it about the evil of the Targaryens. It's about misogyny; something HOTD seems to have forgotten. Even before they started pushing TB vs TG so hard, they still missed the point.

It doesn't matter that Rhaenyra isn't a perfect, or even a good, person. It doesn't matter that Rhaenyra is non-conforming, plays the political game, and exploits her father's favor. Rhaenyra could have been as pious and well-behaved as Naerys and the Greens still would have usurped her. Rhaenyra could have had children with Laenor, and still the Greens would have usurped her. HOTD tries to paint the usurpation as partially being on Rhaenyra and her choices, but nothing Rhaenyra could have done would have been good enough.

The Blacks are the protagonists of the Dance. Are they perfect? No. Are they heroes? No. GRRM loves his gray characters, the Blacks are no exception. If you people want a story with black and white morality and perfect protagonists, go read another book. Just because people aren't perfect and don't operate exclusively in what's right according to our modern standards doesn't mean they aren't the protagonists.

In conclusion: there isn't a TB vs TG discourse in the Dance because the Greens are the antagonists and completely in the wrong. The point of the Dance is that the misogyny of the Greens damaged the realm. Rhaenyra is the rightful queen, there is no actual argument for Aegon or any of his allies.

Rhaenyra is the rightful queen to Westeros, go cry to George if you don't like it.

#rhaenyra targaryen #queen rhaenyra #asoiaf #house of the dragon #team black #anti team green #anti team green stans #anti aegon ii targaryen #the blacks #dance of the dragons #hotd s2 #anti hotd

[nogoodsheepstealing-greatgrandma]

Team Green: Sorry your faves are boring 😊🤷‍♂️ Sure you're supposed to root for the Blacks but the Greens are just more fun. Jace is boring I'm here for my angsty disaster mess 💚

You realise that's bad writing, right? This is a family civil war drama. One side of that family civil war shouldn't be populated with blank slates. If no effort is made into making Rhaenyra and Daemon's children as fleshed out as Alicent's children then that is bad writing.

Some people find the Lannisters more fun than the Starks, but the Starks are still fleshed out characters (and considering in the books Jace is 14/15, Luke is 13, Joffrey, Baela & Rhaena are 12, Aegon the younger is 9 and Viserys is 7 - these kids ages almost map straight onto the Starklings so they were so meant to be our Targlings). It didn't have to be a zero sum "you can only have ONE side that's interesting". The show is poorer for it. Game of Thrones was a disaster in many ways, but at least the different sides of the conflict had equal screen time and attention.

How hard would it have been to flesh out Jace, or at least give him a half-decent haircut? He could have been a mirror to Jon Snow (they technically have the same initials). One is a bastard who does not know he's a targaryen prince, the other is a targaryen prince who discovers he is a bastard. In a world that hates bastards, that insists they are 'wanton and treacherous by nature', there was plenty of potential to explore some complicated emotions, to give weight to how he feels about being a bastard. The whispers that would have followed him, the scrutiny he would have felt, the internalised guilt and shame, his protectiveness over his little brothers and wish to spare them the truth. Maybe after Alicent confronted Aegon over the pig there could have been a shift where Aegon turns his bullying away from Aemond and towards Jace (more in keeping with book canon). Maybe Jace could feel anxious about lessons with Criston Cole due to his open hatred of him. Maybe he could be equal parts devoted to and resentful of his mother over his parentage, maybe he could be driven to perfectionism to prove himself worthy.

The show made Jace more violent in the fight with Aemond than in the book, by changing who started the fight (from Aemond to Rhaena and co.), by narrowing the age gap to make Jace more of a match for Aemond, and by having him draw a knife instead of a wooden toy sword. But they didn't earn that moment. How much more satisfying would it have been if both Aemond and Jace were given equal emotional weight in the build-up to the fight? If the hurt and anxiety at discovering he was a bastard had been building and building until it burst out. The entire reason the show changed the age dynamic between Rhaenyra and Alicent to make them peers and best friends was supposedly to make their conflict more dramatic - why would you then drop that approach with their kids? How does it make the civil war story better if one half of the next generation of characters aren't really characters?

They didn't even have to put much effort into Baela, as GRRM already had her brimming with personality on the page, but they just... ignored that and made her a non-entity. Oh she gets one punch in, and there's a blink and you'll miss it background shot of her trying to hit Aegon (at this point I don't think the actors were even directed to do that I think they just took it upon themselves). Meanwhile Baela in the books is wild and fearless and deliberately provocative and quick to anger and fiercely defensive of her loved ones and wrestles squires in the training yard and has a pet monkey and sneaks out in search of adventure and brings home 'unsuitable' friends. Including a legless beggar, a blacksmith's apprentice whose muscles she admired, a street conjurer, twin prostitutes and an entire troupe of mummers. And she alarms everyone due to being 'overly fond of boys' and gets epic lines like this when it is suggested she marry Lord Rowan:

“I’ve bedded two of his sons. The eldest and thirdborn, I think it was. Not both at once, that would have been improper.”

She could have been an absolutely chaotic presence onscreen. Rhaena meanwhile is a little more like Sansa to Baela's Arya, but would have needed more work to flesh her out onscreen. Her insecurities and wish for a dragon seemed promising at first, but they were dropped as soon as Aemond lost his eye. Because that was ultimately the narrative purpose she served - to provide a new reason for the fight to start that wasn't Aemond hitting and pushing a toddler into a pile of dragon poo. She helps Aemond's image by being the one to start the fight instead of him, and from then on she becomes a voiceless non-entity. We watch Aemond fly away victoriously on Vhagar, we don't see Rhaena tearfully watching the last link to her mother vanish over the horizon.

Considering the prominent role of bastards during the dance (especially the dragonseeds), the uninterest in exploring bastardy in Jace makes little sense. Considering the centrality of gender to the story (and considering a certain event involving key players during the dance), the lack of effort into Baela and Rhaena makes zero sense (the show doesn't even bring up their right to Driftmark in an episode dedicated to discussing the rightful heir to Driftmark).

Considering especially that in fantasy black women are so often consigned to minor Missandei roles, the fact that we were robbed of Baela and Rhaena as main characters particularly stings. Baela in particular was an easy fan favourite in the book, and its a role that black women and girls so rarely get to play. If you had told me before the show that Helaena would be a fan favourite over Baela, I wouldn't have believed it. And don't get me wrong, I like that they fleshed out Helaena in the show, like Rhaena she didn't have much of a presence in the book. But it is so typical that the relative non-entity that they kept white gets to be fleshed out, while the more fleshed out character that they made black becomes a non-entity. And Helaena is skinny now, of course (all love to Phia Saban, but I am mourning plump Helaena).

And don't get me started on Kylo Raemond.

#hotd critical #house of the dragon #team black #team green #pro team black #jacaerys velaryon #baela targaryen #rhaena targaryen #aemond targaryen #helaena targaryen #kylo ren #jace #jon snow #valyrianscrolls #f&b

[jackoshadows]

I feel like GRRM is stuck on Bran Stark. Bran being hard to write is why, despite being one of the central characters of the books, he only has half the POV chapters of Jon Snow. And why he is unable to finish The Winds of Winter and is doubtful of even finishing by 2025.

As a serial procrastinator, I can sympathize with a tendency to put off the hardest task with excuses, while eagerly completing the easiest first.

It's clear that GRRM loves writing Tyrion and Arya. He has an entire novel's worth of material in Braavos for Arya and I feel like the difficulty will be in editing it and cutting it down to fit into TWoW. Similarly Tyrion is most probably done as well, considering all the mentions of him writing Tyrion chapters in his notablog posts. So he's most likely done with the Tyrion and Arya POV chapters. They are the easiest characters for him to write.

Tyrion being done would mean that the Essos plot is largely dealt with as well considering Dany's POV would intersect with Tyrion's at some point and he can't fully finish Tyrion until Dany's is mostly done as well. In May 2012 he mentioned writing Dany's Essosi chapters.

WINDS OF WINTER. Yes, I’m working on that too. At the moment, I am writing about the Dothraki. More than that, I sayeth not, you know I don’t like to talk about this stuff.  - Daenerys POV (Essos)

In June 2020, he mentioned Barristan and more chapters in the North.

In between tapings, I return to Westeros. Of late I have been visiting with Cersei, Asha, Tyrion, Ser Barristan, and Areo Hotah. I will be dropping back into Braavos next week. - Cersei, Asha (North), Tyrion, Barristan (Essos)

He has also mentioned writing Victarion chapters.

We also know that the two battles - battle of fire in Essos and the battle of ice in the North - is already written and was simply moved from ADwD to TWoW.

With all this being intricately tied together into one giant plot - Stannis Vs Boltons at Winterfell, Theon and Asha with Stannis, the pink letter to Jon, Jeyne being send to the Wall, GRRM writing about how we will be getting 'Direwolves Vs Ramsay's hounds' etc. - means most of this is also done. GRRM has also mentioned writing Melisandre - the only POV at the Wall now that Jon Snow is dead - chapters. Which means the North/Wall is also mostly done.

“I think we’re gonna start out with a big smash with the two enormous  battles,” Martin says (Essos and North).  In addition, Martin says, “We have more deaths, and we have  more betrayals. We have more marriages.” Let the speculation begin. As  he’s noted before, Martin says the Dothraki are coming back into the  story (“in a big way”), and he says “a lot of stuff is happening at The  Wall.” - GRRM

August 2020:

My life is at home, on hold, and I am spending the days in Westeros with my pals Mel and Sam and Vic and Ty. And that girl with no name, over there in Braavos. -  The Wall/Mel, Sam, Victarion, Tyrion, Arya

So there's also Sam/Oldtown/Euron chapters - Sam is another character he loves writing. So that section of the story - possibly Euron's attack on Oldtown seen through Sam and Aeron POV chapters - has also got attention.

What about KL and the Riverlands?

November 2020:

Of late I have been spending a lot of time with theLannisters. Cersei and Tyrion in particular. I’ve also paid a visit to Dorne, and dropped in to Oldtown a time or three. In addition to turning out new chapters, I’ve been revising some old ones (some very old)… including, yes, some stuff I read at cons ages ago, or even posted online as samples. I tweak stuff constantly, and sometimes go beyond tweaking, moving things around, combining chapters, breaking chapters in two, reordering stuff. - Cersei (KL), Tyrion, Sam(Oldtown)

June 2022

WINDS, you say?   Yes, still working.   Finally finished a clutch of Cersei chapters that were giving me fits.   Now I am wrestling with Jaime and Brienne.   The work proceeds, though not as fast as many of you would like. - Cersei(KL) Jaime, Brienne (Riverrun, Lady Stoneheart)

So GRRM has recently (recent for us asoiaf fans lol!) finished Cersei, Jaime and Brienne chapters as well. So that's Essos, the North, the Wall, Oldtown, King's Landing and the Riverlands.

What's missing is Bran and Sansa in the Vale in terms of major POV characters. The Vale may just be an instance of being too isolated and unconnected from the rest of the plot until Littlefinger makes his move or GRRM may find writing LF's plotting a bit hard to tackle.

However, it's Bran that stands out for me in not being mentioned, considering this is the penultimate book and the threat from beyond the Wall has to be a big part of this book.

It has been my intention from the start to gradually bring up the amount of magic in each successive volume of A Song of Ice and Fire, and that will continue. - GRRM

“ And it is important that the individual books refer to the civil wars,  but the series title reminds us constantly that the real issue lies in  the North beyond the Wall. Stannis becomes one of the few characters   fully to understand that, which is why in spite of everything he is a   righteous man, and not just a version of Henry VII, Tiberius or Louis   XI.” - GRRM

From all his interviews here and there, I can think of 3 reasons why the Bran chapters are hard.

This is where a lot of the hard core high fantasy happens. And we know that there's a backstory with Hodor that involves some complex time travel shenanigans - not going to be easy to write for someone in his seventies. Even more complicated in terms of causal loops and temporal paradoxes if it's Bran's consciousness that's doing the time traveling.

Age. GRRM has admitted before that he finds Bran the hardest to write as a disabled little boy. Bran's grown up a couple of years and yet he's still a little boy - Arya's age in AGoT.

Isolation with few fun side characters. GRRM really loves that world building and writing for those tertiary characters surrounding his main character. Arya meeting fun new characters everywhere she goes, her arc in Braavos, Dany in Essos, Jon's colorful and fun side characters, Tyrion traveling through Essos. One reason for why the series blew up from a trilogy into this unfinished mess is because GRRM enjoying writing for the side characters more than the main characters. Brienne got 8 chapters traversing the Riverlands searching for Sansa while Bran languished with 3 chapters in ADwD. Thus far Bran's world is very isolated and disconnected and has the least side characters - Meera, Jojen, Summer, Bloodraven and Coldhands. Of these, only 3 speak.

I think therefore that having written everything that GRRM can of the characters he does enjoy writing and finishing off the political plot points, he has finally turned his attention to Bran Stark. This is hardest part, involves a lot of sticky notes and attention to detail and needs to cover a lot of ground, bringing the Others back into the story in a big way.

I wish him luck. It's not going to be easy to write plots and details that he thought of some 30 years ago but I hope that he gets to finish a decent chunk of Bran chapters so that TWoW can finally be published.

#GRRM #TWoW speculation #asoiaf #TWoW #The Winds of Winter #Bran Stark

[lilith-91]

Why do you think grrm is "pro Rhaegar"?

I mean, because he's serving cunt in life and in death lol

Jokes aside, he's a central figure in the books. Many characters are still obsessing over him 20 years after his death, he was so beautiful that Cersei (!) gave a fleet to a guy just because he almost looked like him.

Two viewpoint characters are in love with him (Cersei and JonCon). Other three idolized/respected him (Dany, Jaime and Barristan)

Ned, another viewpoint character, compared Robert and Rhaegar and ROBERT come out lacking (against the guy who "kidnapped and raped" his sister, basically)

Jaime calls him "King" and says Robert was no true King.

Wyman Manderly says Rhaegar Frey is a smirking worm “with a dragon’s name" (he was offended lol)

Daenerys is compared multiple times to him in a positive way

And look at what happened to the rebellion's leaders. Robert was butchered by a pig, Tywin was Killed by his own son while shitting, Jon Arryn was poisoned by his wife…..and the guy who died as a warrior (and with a tragic poetic death) was Rhaegar lol

"Rubies flew like drops of blood from the chest of a dying prince, and he sank to his knees in the water and with his last breath murmured a woman's name.”

Annnd……he wasn't a rapist. Lyanna and Rhaegar's relationship was consensual, as i've said here

He wasn't perfect or a hero, no. Nobody is perfect in this series. "The human heart in conflict with itself" and "Love is death of duty" very much defines Rhaegar. The struggle between his marriage to Elia and love for Lyanna, his conflict with his father, the prophecy and the threat of the Others. He couldn’t anticipated that the Lannisters would betray his father, or that his wife and children would both be killed.

He made mistakes like....99% of asoiaf characters. He's a conflicted character with flaws and virtues.

He wasn't the "spawn of Satan" like many people want to believe. GRRM will never acknowledge the nonsensical fandom headcanons and he's not gonna change his books.

So yeah, he’s 100% pro-Rhaegar and the fandom will get a rude awakening with the next books

#asoiaf #rhaegar targaryen #game of thrones #daenerys targeryan #lyanna stark #house targaryen

[creganofhousestark]

(Screenshots because I’m one hundred percent sure i will be blocked for stating facts that go against the op’s headcanons if i were to reblog my opinions under their post and then will proceed to rant away about the eViL aRyA sTaNs whose crime is, well, reading the books, you know?)

So, i had the misfortune of coming across this one post by @agentrouka-blog when i was going through the main tags and, god! The amount of bs i have to wade through in the name of fandom experience is concerning at this point.

Whenever did Sansa cover for Arya? When she was declaring her as a traitor to a bloodthirsty Cersei Lannister that it was her sister with the traitor’s blood and not her after her father’s imprisonment? Or when she threw Arya under the bus at Trident?

“She blames Sansa for things she never did” dude there was never one moment where Arya blamed Sansa for things she never did. Hell, Arya didn’t blame Sansa enough. Guess it’s time to reread AGoT lol. Sansa “it’s your butcher boy’s fault for dying because he attacked the prince” is blameless y’all *mic drop*

“Violently attacks her because that’s her opportunity to blow off steam after a traumatic 4 days” yes because your sister is basically accusing of treason when the reason behind her actions was purely defense. Apparently you must be level headed in the face of your your sister refusing to be honest in a moment when the outcome (which is Mycah living or dying) depends on her word. If Sansa’s really as smart and intelligent as stansas claim then Joffrey’s actions at the Trident should’ve opened her eyes. Ned was the Hand of the King, the King’s BFF. She was under no pressure to maintain diplomacy. Hell, Ned was right by her side, reassuring her and encouraging her to speak her truth. What would’ve happened if she were honest? The betrothal would’ve been called off? Ned would’ve lost his spot at worst? Big loss, the North would have minded it’s own business as usual….and Sansa’s southern dreams would have shattered. In that moment Sansa chose her dreams and fantasies over her sister and remain blind to the kind of a monster Joffrey was.

Moreover, being focused and worried about herself and her desires is not necessarily a flaw, Sansa’s just more human. She’s got five heroes to compete against, which is why she may appear more flawed than Arya. But honestly it’s all subjective. Arya’s character is simply rich and has a hell lot more depth, that’s all.

Mostly Ned’s favouritism BRO NED CHOSE TO GIVE UP THE HONOUR HE VALUED hell he chose a traitor’s death for her and, goddammit there’s not one moment where he favoured one over the other. Do not talk about the damned flowers scene in Sansa I, Ned would’ve grinned and thanked Sansa for the same bleeding flowers. Sansa was just pissed that Ned didn’t reprimand his child for behaving like a typical 9 year old child. Which, nobility or no, is quite common in that society. Hell, we have textual evidence of Catelyn playing with LF and Lysa making mud pies at 12. It’s almost as if Sansa can’t stand anything short of Sansa 2.0 from her sister.

Arya’s miles better. Just ask GRRM. He wrote the books.

Anyways, thanks agentrouka for reminding me how brilliant of a writer George Martin is. The man picked stereotypical heroes and gave their stories not-so-stereotypical twists as their arcs progressed. An exiled powerless princess who earned it all and more through her blood sweat and tears, a non conformist noblewoman who’s gone through an extraordinary number of trials, a powerful noble dwarf unwanted by his own blood, a disabled boy with unparalleled magical potential and a bastard from two powerful, magical families who was practically thrown aside.

#asoiaf #a song of ice and fire #arya stark #sansa stark #asoiaf fandom discourse #george r r martin

[agentrouka-blog]

Why do you think the names that both Elia and Rhaegar uttered before dying are not revealed by Martin? Like in tHotU, Dany watches R say a woman's name before dying but though I always assumed it was Lyanna, nowhere is it confirmed, not even by Robert, even though he must've heard it. Elsewhere, Varys tells Tyrion that he found out via his little bird network that Elia screamed a name when Gregor went to kill her. It's never been specified who's name it was but Varys does allude to it being someone in connection to Tywin or that's my understanding of it but I'm pretty dense at understanding aSoIaF mysteries.

So, why the secrecy...I ask you?

There is no secrecy regarding Elia.

"Why forget?" Tyrion smiled. "I've promised to deliver his sister's killers, alive or dead, as he prefers. After the war is done, to be sure." Varys gave him a shrewd look. "My little birds tell me that Princess Elia cried a . . . certain name . . . when they came for her." "Is a secret still a secret if everyone knows it?" In Casterly Rock, it was common knowledge that Gregor Clegane had killed Elia and her babe. They said he had raped the princess with her son's blood and brains still on his hands. (ACOK, Tyrion IV)

In the context of the conversation it's absolutely clear that they are referring to Gregor Clegane. Because that's a controversial truth, given he still serves House Lannister as he did then. Implying (rightfully) her death was ordered by them.

Rhaegar is more subtly handled.

Rubies flew like drops of blood from the chest of a dying prince, and he sank to his knees in the water and with his last breath murmured a woman's name. . . . (ACOK, Daenerys IV)

The popular interpretation is that it was Lyanna's name, though why Dany would not state it as such is unclear. She is well aware of the story, especially in its romanticized form. Maybe because it was not Lyanna's name.

Given both instances happen in the same book, they might reference each other. Elia screams the name of her attacker to alert her surroundings. Rhaegar might be murmuring the name of someone else who motivated his actions that led to his death. Someone related to the prophecy that guided him, perchance.

GRRM has been heavily implying but not yet revealing Rhaegar's true motivations. If the name is relevant at all, it will come to light in the context of the prophecy, I am sure.

#asoiaf history #elia martell #rhaegar targaryen

[gwenllian-in-the-abbey]

I'm not being rude or evasive and if so, forgive me. I just have this doubt: why don't you illustrate baela with black skin like in the HBO series?

I'll tag the artist, @aifsaath in on this too, in case I'm speaking out of turn, but it is indeed something that we definitely discussed when we decided make this fic happen.

The simple answer is that we're writing from the book canon, and we went with book descriptions when possible, including their coloring and their body types. Of course, whenever there's an adaptation, the actors portrayed in the show are going to be the ones who first pop into people's minds, regardless of whether the fic is set in the book canon or the show canon, and that's fine! In fact, my first long-fic is based more on the show-verse, and I described that Baela as she appears on the show, with curly silver hair and brown skin. To me, they're different canons and there are legit reasons to choose one or the other, or to mix them up. For this fic we wanted to stick to one consistent canon rather than mixing and matching, and since the majority of the events that happen in this fic have not been depicted on the show yet, and won't for many years to come, we decided to go with Fire and Blood. Less simple answer below the cut.

Here's the more complicated answer. While the show chooses not to focus too heavily on this aspect of the world building, the Valyrians are racial supremacists. They believe in blood purity and consider themselves to be better than non-Valyrians. The Targaryen dynasty in particular has built a whole mythos around Targaryen exceptionalism based on their special blood, but the blood is shown time and again to not actually be all that special. It's a lie, like white supremacy itself is a lie. Targaryens can't get sick, until they do. Only those with Targaryen blood can ride dragons, until Nettles comes along. Targaryens must marry their brothers and sisters, and nothing bad will come of this because they are a special exception, but it literally ruins multiple people's lives and causes at least one massive war. The Valyrians weren't special chosen ones, they were slavers, eugenicists, they practiced blood magic (heavily implied to involve human sacrifice), and their hubris led to their doom. And while it's kind of heavy handed, it's not coincidental that GRRM made these folks pale haired and pale skinned and made them obsessed with preserving Targaryen purity. OFCIR is critical of this, and we did not think it was a great idea to make George's fantasy version of white supremacists into POC since they are blood supremacists in our fic, something the show waters down a lot, at least so far. George has actually said that he once had the idea of making ALL of the Valyrians Black, as a kind of uno-reverse on white supremacy, but realized that would probably be a bad look and scrapped the idea.

Some fans are also very attached to the idea of the special blood actually being special. Online I've already seen people arguing that Nettles, who was written in the books as a Black woman, could simply be of Velaryon blood (nevermind that the Velaryons were not dragonriders by blood, Addam Velaryon rides a dragon, probably due to centuries of Velaryon mixing with the Targs), when in Fire and Blood it is heavily implied that Nettles tamed a dragon the good old fashioned way (by feeding it!) rather than bonding to one by blood. And when Rhaenyra believes Nettles is fooling around with Daemon, she throws around insults that imply Nettles' blood is impure, calling her "common," saying Daemon would never lie with such a "low creature," and finally accuses her of sorcery to tame her dragon, saying, "you only have to look at her to know she doesn't have a drop of dragon blood in her." Hair and eye color alone can't be what she's talking about either, because book!Rhaenys has dark hair, and Rhaenyra's own sons are brown haired and brown eyed. And while I have no doubt that the show will likely change this storyline significantly, we are using book canon. For what it's worth, I think it's significant that the one canonically Black dragonrider is the one who does not get her dragonriding skills from her "pure" Valyrian blood, but through skill and perseverance. It's a deconstruction of racial supremacy, but it doesn't work if she is simply another hidden Valyrian.

But you might have noticed the art gives Aegon a more golden skin tone, and that's because his mixed heritage is a part of his story. And although later on some Hightowers are described as having light blonde hair (possibly because Rhaena marries into the bloodline), Oldtown is very close to Dorne, and the southern part of the Reach is closest to the Summer Isles of any part of the realm. Oldtown is this major trading port, with people coming in and out from all over the world for thousands of years. Oldtown has a history of being a center of trade for a lot longer than King's Landing has, so we imagine the southern Reach as being as pretty diverse place, a bit like the Mediterranean in our world. It's fair to say you'd have Reacher families with a wide variety of skin tones, which is why you see that in @aifsaath's drawings of Aegon, and in our descriptions, he is indeed darker than Baela.

#asks #targaryen blood supremacy critical #targaryen exceptionalism #our fathers clad in red #f&b fic

[esther-dot]

"I would have given you a son too, but they murdered him with moon tea, with tansy and mint and wormwood, a spoon of honey and a drop of pennyroyal."- Sansa(ASOS VII).

Lysa revealing about her father giving her moontea could be enough. What I find weird that she reveals it's ingredients too which make no sense. Why grrm introduce it in Sansa chapter? Other chapters does have mention of moontea but it's in Sansa chapter we get to know about it's ingredients.

PS I don't think Sansa will drink it or someone will force her to drink it. Only curious with the mention of it.

Moon tea isn't mentioned that often in the books, and some of these ingredients aren't mentioned anywhere else at all (pennyroyal, wormwood), so it is notable that we get this here. I agree with you that the primary purpose of listing the ingredients has to be to highlight "tansy" and use it to indicate that Hoster was the one who made Lysa take moon tea when she was pregnant with LF's child:

He does not know me. Catelyn had grown accustomed to him taking her for her mother or her sister Lysa, but Tansy was a name strange to her. "It's Catelyn," she said. "It's Cat, Father." "Forgive me . . . the blood . . . oh, please . . . Tansy . . ." Could there have been another woman in her father's life? Some village maiden he had wronged when he was young, perhaps? Could he have found comfort in some serving wench's arms after Mother died? It was a queer thought, unsettling. Suddenly she felt as though she had not known her father at all. "Who is Tansy, my lord? Do you want me to send for her, Father? Where would I find the woman? Does she still live?" Lord Hoster groaned. "Dead." His hand groped for hers. "You'll have others . . . sweet babes, and trueborn." Others? Catelyn thought. Has he forgotten that Ned is gone? Is he still talking to Tansy, or is it me now, or Lysa, or Mother? When he coughed, the sputum came up bloody. He clutched her fingers. ". . . be a good wife and the gods will bless you . . . sons . . . trueborn sons . . . aaahhh." The sudden spasm of pain made Lord Hoster's hand tighten. His nails dug into her hand, and he gave a muffled scream. (ASOS, Catelyn I) [...] His words disturbed her more than she could say, though she could make no sense of them. Blood, she thought. Must it all come back to blood? Father, who was this woman, and what did you do to her that needs so much forgiveness? (ASOS, Catelyn I) [...] Could Tansy be some pet name he called Lysa, the way he called me Cat? Lord Hoster had mistaken her for her sister before. You'll have others, he said. Sweet babes, and trueborn. Lysa had miscarried five times, twice in the Eyrie, thrice at King's Landing . . . but never at Riverrun, where Lord Hoster would have been at hand to comfort her. Never, unless . . . unless she was with child, that first time . . .(ASOS, Catelyn I)

Tansy doesn't pop up until ASOS, and he uses it in a few different POVs, has someone else call moon tea tansy tea, but it's really hammered on in Cat's POV about Hoster's words, so I think that really is about Lysa's trauma. Now we've answered for the presence of tansy, there's no context for wormwood or pennyroyal, and the last two ingredients mentioned are mint and honey. Sometimes mint is mentioned as part of a description of food, sometimes as a pleasant odor, but it's specifically associated with LF's breath:

Septa Mordane quickly took a hand. "Sweet child, this is Lord Petyr Baelish, of the king's small council." "Your mother was my queen of beauty once," the man said quietly. His breath smelled of mint. "You have her hair." His fingers brushed against her cheek as he stroked one auburn lock. Quite abruptly he turned and walked away. (AGOT, Sansa II) The girls had traded him between them, serious and giggling by turns. It came back to her so vividly she could almost feel his sweaty fingers on her shoulders and taste the mint on his breath. There was always mint growing in the godswood, and Petyr had liked to chew it. (AGOT, Catelyn XI) "I told you that nothing could please me more than to help you with your castle. I fear that was a lie as well. Something else would please me more." He stepped closer. "This." Sansa tried to step back, but he pulled her into his arms and suddenly he was kissing her. Feebly, she tried to squirm, but only succeeded in pressing herself more tightly against him. His mouth was on hers, swallowing her words. He tasted of mint. For half a heartbeat she yielded to his kiss . . . before she turned her face away and wrenched free. "What are you doing?" Petyr straightened his cloak. "Kissing a snow maid." (ASOS, Sansa VII)

From that, I would think that like tansy, this ingredient is highlighted to use for association purposes and tie LF to Lysa's trauma. Lysa's revelation and the list of ingredients are later in the same chapter as LF kissing Sansa, so his minty breath seems intentionally included to that end. Martin likes his mysteries and I thought the clues being offered and then ingredients listed were a way to tie it all into the revelation.

There is also the theory that Jeyne W is being given moon tea by her mother, but the ingredients aren't listed out the same way and they sound different from what Lysa had:

"Do," said Catelyn, but when the girl was at the door, she thought of something else. "Jeyne," she called after, "there's one more thing Robb needs from you, though he may not know it yet himself. A king must have an heir." The girl smiled at that. "My mother says the same. She makes a posset for me, herbs and milk and ale, to help make me fertile. I drink it every morning. (ASOS, Catelyn III)

so that may or may not eventually be tied into this? I can't say. The last ingredient Lysa mentioned was honey which comes up in many different ways for many purposes, but I refuse to be sidetracked! What seems important here is that unlike the possibility of Ygritte taking moon tea (ASOS, Jon II) or Asha (AFFC, The Kraken's Daughter; ADWD, the Wayward Bride) or Arianne (AFFC, the Soiled Knight) or even in the accusations against Margaery (AFFC, Cersei IX; AFFC, Cersei X; ADWD Epilogue), in Lysa's experience, taking moon tea isn't about a woman making a choice for herself, her bodily autonomy, it's about being victimized. So, I think the inclusion of honey there may have been more about that idea of disguising the taste of something dangerous. There's a lot in the books about someone beautiful actually being evil, so sweetening something Lysa didn't know the consequence of taking ...it fits with that. There's also the "sweet poison," perfume covering foul things (LF and his minty breath...) stuff that we could tie in there.

In rereading the chapter and looking for connections, the main takeaway I had was that moon tea isn't really mentioned until ASOS, so I would conclude the Lysa/LF issue was a major reason for Martin to include it and then grow it in other POVs, possibly into the Robb/Jeyne storyline. Where Lysa's story is about her trauma, there's the pressure for heirs that Robb has which could relate to Jon or Sansa, depending on who ends up leading the North. Since Jon has the longstanding bastard issue that comes up in his experience with Ygritte as well as the possibility of her taking moon tea as her own decision--not his--that seems like an issue we might get a payoff for.

Your PS is concerning to me though since there's spec that Jeyne might be taking it unwittingly, one could argue that knowing the ingredients would prevent Sansa from the same fate? But I can't say that I felt that was the end goal of this when looking over Sansa's chapter. I wonder though, since Sansa has had the trauma of being forced to take it presented to her, that could be included to preface a decision to not take it, damn the consequences. After all, moon tea starts popping up in a lot of POVs and most of the time, as in the Jon/Ygritte scenario, it's women having lovers and the option of taking an abortifacient if they wanted, so I wouldn't surmise this means anything bad for Sansa, it might be about her having options and choosing what she wants later on.

I guess I could see Martin playing this forward in a number of ways, but I don't see one that feels inevitable. I think the main point was to allow him to hint at it with the tansy reference near the beginning of ASOS to make the reveal at the end of the book + Lysa's death all the more impactful and horrible.

Sorry, long way of saying I have nothing helpful to contribute!

#dot chat

[bucknastysbabe]

Okay I don't want to bad mouth anyone, cause that would make me just as bad as those people, but with the way some people have been behaving... I could think of one or two people that would make a list like this.

Nothing will get done if a name isn’t dropped. I mean I get my name slung around the place anyways since the first big ass fandom fight where she inserted herself into a beef between bel and I (who are now cool) so fuck it I guess???? Em whatever the fuck her name is idk ~book that’ll give GRRM an anuerysm~has been posting a block list in multiple servers. Then has the audacity to make a timeline of the drama she’s been in and still tags accounts that are terrified of her or left the tumblr entirely just to say ‘I don’t want to be part of the drama’ be so fucking real rn

I mean when I hear about nasty behavior like this and the fandom is already dead why wouldn’t I want to say something? Just sit back and let it happen? Call me a bully, obsessed whatever but I will Continue to speak my mind with my whole chest alone in this or not. Hopefully season 2 brings people back before everyone leaves or finds a different fandom from dark-sided behaviors such as these

[cellsshapedlikestars]

Don’t worry about answering this is you don’t want to. I know you don’t like fandom wank. But, if you feel like it, do you think someone could make those endpoints work? Bran as king and Jon at the Wall even though there’s a big old hole in it and Dany deliberately burning King’s Landing before Jon or Arya kills her, is that an ending any writer, no matter their skill, could sell to the hardcore fans? I don’t think the fandom would accept it even if GRRM wrote it.

lololol I deleted my post already anon, so for those of you who didn't read it - I was once again whining about how d&d fucked up the last bunch of seasons and every character. it's not a new take, just something I was high thinking in the shower, so I deleted it bc it wasn't productive.

But I'll answer this, because I think it's interesting.

In short - no.

(Beneath the cut for a longer explanation and just a whole bunch of my ranty thoughts. pls remember I am no asoiaf scholar and I haven't studied every aspect of the books or read every meta. These are just my opinions.)

Longer - at this point, too much time has gone by, there is literally no way George can please... probably even half of his fanbase, no matter what he does. From what I can tell, the fandom too divided and there's so much hatred between stan groups (which I do find ridiculous, but it is what it is). People have cemented their own ending in their heads after decades of the fandom existing without an official ending, and I can see a lot of them not liking that they're wrong. Some people have spent 30 years with their theories, it's sunk cost fallacy. Case in point, the show ending being written off as fanfiction by a lot of fans.

which, tangent, I get. I GET why d stans don't believe the ending, because it was so poorly executed. I truly do understand their denial, because the show gaslit the audience for soooooo long that she was the girlboss hero and then seemed to do a 180 at the end. What was that post I just reblogged the other day? I don't hate villains, I hate when the narrative tries to convince you the bad person is actually good.

now, you asked if anyone could make those endpoints work, but I don't actually think most of them are the real endpoints? I think they were D&D giving up and not trying, or going for Shock Value™. But for fun, I'm gonna go by endpoints I think are most to least likely, and my thoughts on how they could happen and how D&D fucked them up.

Bran as king: Confirmed by grrm. How he'll make this work, I have no idea. I genuinely didn't see it coming tbh. I thought the "bittersweet" ending would be Jon being forced to take the crown in KL. like it's a good ending for everyone else, but for him it's misery. I'm sure grrm has his plans, and I'd be interested to see how he pulls it off. This end point does not disappoint me and I'm not mad at being wrong, but I can see a HUGE swath of people HATING it. specifically D stans.

D&D blew this hard. They cut Bran out of an entire season, making him seem to the audience like a lesser character and not important. They made him a robot. Why am I rooting for show!Bran? Also, I will never, ever get over that line - who has a better story than Bran the Broken? I don't know Tyrion, literally everyone else?? JON DIED AND CAME BACK TO LIFE. ahem.

(as far as I'm aware, Bran as king is the only ending grrm has confirmed?? correct me if I'm wrong.)

D as the big bad: I guess grrm hasn't officially confirmed this, but... he's sort of confirmed it, riiiiight? He compared dragons to nuclear weapons. The show has her as the villain (poorly executed or not). When I gave hotd a shot, literally the opening lines were about the Targs bringing themselves down immediately after name dropping her. Seems pretty solid to me. D&D just refused to commit to her villain arc because they didn't want to alienate their audience that they'd gaslit into thinking she was the hero, and they were seemingly obsessed with Shock Value™ twists.

Dany burning KL: I think the burning of KL is going to happen, and it seems like Dany is the only one to really do it? Unclear how it will happen, I'm sure people have theories. What the show didn't have was Aegon, so who knows how he'll factor in.

Arya sailing west: I think there's a lot of foreshadowing for it. It fits her nature. I think this is very likely to happen and I guess D&D handled it ok. They did ruin her character, though, by making her a literal mass murderer. But yayyyyyy feminism I guess.

Theon sacrificing himself for Bran: Theon's was the only arc I think the show did well. They ruined it at the end by having Theon literally throw himself onto the Night King's sword, which was so fucking stupid, but the arc itself is poignant and fits his character. While he can't ever redeem himself to Robb, he can redeem himself to Robb's siblings, and considering he once pretended to kill Bran, I think this is solid.

Cersei and Jaime dying together: this was my theory even before the show ending, and I think it fits their characters. They cannot live without each other, no matter if they hate each other. They're too deeply entwined in each other. Now, I personally wanted Cersei to be taken captive and put in the black cells to be publicly burned later, and then Jaime shows up and mercy kills her and then himself bc he can't live without her.

But I guess getting bonked on the head by some avoidable rocks is also a way to do it

Sansa as QitN: I'll be honest and say I hated this ending because she ended up alone. Sansa, who has wanted nothing more than family and safety since book 1, ends up completely alone. Even Brienne, her sworn shield, leaves her. but she's a queen, so yayyyy feminism I guess.

I can see her as queen, but I can also see her ending up as queen regent for Rickon, because I'm not totally convinced Rickon dies? like in the show he just randomly shows up and gets captured by Ramsay and it just feels like that isn't his arc in the books. Maybe I'm wrong. But I could see D&D having the endpoint of Sansa as regent, but they killed Rickon off already for Shock Value™, and so they went oops! and made her queen.

Now, there is a part of me that thinks she will not be queen or queen regent, because how does one break off and declare independence from their own brother? Feels like that would destabilize his rule and not give people much faith in him. It just seems really strange to me, but I guess it could happen, since Northern Independence is such a huge theme and it would be weird if it didn't happen?? Does Bran just let her secede? And it doesn't make Dorne or the Iron Islands try.... That's the part in the show that literally did not make sense to me. Sansa was like bye, I'm taking the north, and no one else spoke up about that.

I'd be totally fine with her as queen (if she has someone!!) but I can see a gooooood chunk of the fandom absolutely hating this. surprise.

Brienne as Kingsguard: while I like it for narrative purposes, because she deserves it, I just can't see her leaving Sansa, if she becomes as close to Sansa as she does on the show? If Sansa is queen, I could see her as Sansa's Queensguard. But what does she have in KL? The south didn't ever respect her, why would she want to go back. I think D&D put this in so they could have the ending shot of her writing in the book about Jaime for the shippers

Jon at the Wall: the only reason he went to the Wall in the show was because Grey Worm demanded it? And then left. So. You know, real enforceable. So stupid. Genuinely the worst writing of all the endings, I think, the logic made zero sense there. Now, that could be because they'd written themselves into a corner, but knew Jon ended up at the Wall, and had to force it?

But to me, it's like - what was the point of his resurrection, then? In the show, he doesn't even kill the Night King (we'll get to that). He kills D, sure, but... He's also the reason she succeeds in Westeros to begin with. So what, he gets resurrected, causes havoc, fixes the havoc he caused, and then is sent away to a Wall that serves no purpose anymore? WHAT PURPOSE DOES THE WALL SERVE. The Others are defeated, there's a big ol' hole in it, and they've allied with the Free Folk to an extent. How does the Watch continue on?

I guess he could self-banish. I know the show sort of makes the implication that he goes off with the Free Folk, but in the books, he doesn't really like FF culture? He's appalled by a lot of the violence in it. I can't see him wanting to live that way.

Brai.me: don't get me wrong, I like Brai.me. I think it's cute, in fanon. In canon, I think Brienne is too good for him. I don't see their relationship going romantic or sexual. I think Brienne is who Jaime desperately wants to be (but Cersei is who he keeps being pulled back to). Them having sex was 100% for the shippers

Jo/ner.ys: I'm putting all the punctuation in that. don't need them finding me somehow. Anyway. I don't think this happens, at least not as a true romance. They're on opposite continents and there's not a ton of time left, but more than that - and I know I've said this before - I can't see Jon "hates seeing people burned alive" Snow falling in love with D "loves to burn people alive" T. Could it be a political thing? Maybe, but I also could see her having an alliance with Aegon.

I think there's 2 possible reasons for this being in the show and presented as an actual romance. 1) it was supposed to be that pol!Jon theory, but they chickened out (same with jonsa & a love triangle, I think they chickened out bc of the incest. I think now with hotd being incest central and fans loving it, they wouldn't balk anymore). 2) just the spectacle of it? people have been theorizing this for years, why not give it to them? see above, brai.me

Tyrion as Hand: bleh. I know the fandom loves him and he was clearly D&D's fave, but grrm has said Tyrion is the most morally gray character, and I can't see him letting Tyrion get everything he's always wanted, you know? People think asoiaf is grimdark, but I can't imagine grrm punishing Jon with banishment while giving Tyrion a cushy position with lots of power.

I've read the theory that Tyrion ends up at the Wall, which I like thematically, but again, WHAT PURPOSE DOES THE WALL SERVE. Is it just a penal colony at that point?? someone smarter than me, tell me.

Grey Worm & Missandei condoning/encouraging D: hated it. Take the only characters of color to have speaking lines (i'm 99% sure) in the last season and turn them vengeful and murderous (especially grey worm). Throw their characters under the bus to absolve D of blame

Arya killing the Night King: no. he doesn't exist in the books, first, and even in the show it made zero narrative sense. It was just a Shock Value™ twist. You thought it was gonna be hero Jon, hmmmmmm? WRONG. I've said it on here before, but my hope is that it's Sam that brings down the Others in the book somehow.

.

Did I forget anything, anon? This probably veered wildly from the point of the ask, but oh well, it was fun. (I had a jonsa section in here at first, but then I remembered this is show canon ending stuff and that was not canon sorry fellow jonsas. I obvioulsy want it to be the ending bc the shipper brainrot is real, buuuuuut...)

#cellsshapedlikeasks #my thoughts are probably very disorganized #and this is rambling #oh well

[kellyvela]

In a conversation late last month, Martin, the man who over the past three decades meticulously constructed the “Thrones” universe in his various books, discussed why he felt strongly about this idea; his ambitions for future spinoffs; and how his work-in-progress books will diverge from the controversial ending of “Game of Thrones,” the TV series.

These are edited excerpts from our conversation.

Two writers worked on the development of your Targaryen story and it didn’t go anywhere. What made you keep pushing for it?

GRRM: I did not want to drop it. There was a lot of material already written on it, and it had everything that I thought we needed for a successful successor show. It had all of the intrigue around the Iron Throne. It had the great houses contending. It had dragons — a lot of dragons — and battles and betrayals.

“House of the Dragon” has thematic overlaps with “Game of Thrones” — family rivalry, the battle for the throne. In what ways is it different?

GRRM: “Game of Thrones” and my book version of it, “A Song of Ice and Fire,” is, in some ways, a classic high fantasy in the mode of Tolkien and many, many writers who followed. Now, yes, it is true that in a sense, I’m deconstructing those tropes, those myths, the things that were hallmarks. But I’m also following them to some extent. “House of the Dragon” is more like historical fiction with some dragons thrown in. It’s like a Shakespearean tragedy.

It’s been just over three years since “Game of Thrones” ended in a way that disappointed many fans. What did you make of the ending?

GRRM: One of the things in the later seasons of the show was, How many seasons was it going to be? And [the “Game of Thrones” creators David Benioff and Dan Weiss] for years were saying they wanted to wrap it up in seven seasons. Well, seven became eight because the eighth season is really the second half of the seventh season — it’s kind of one long season.

But I never felt that seven or eight seasons was enough. I campaigned for 10 seasons, and we could have gone to 12. There’s enough material — and there certainly will be enough material once I finish these last two books — to sustain 12 seasons.

But I lost that battle, and we went with eight. I think one of the big complaints about those last seasons is not only what happened — although there are complaints about that — but also that it happened too suddenly, and it was not set up. And if we had 10 seasons or 12 seasons, I think that would have worked better.

Considering the backlash, what’s your level of concern, for the new show, that people are either going to be too fatigued to return to the “Thrones” universe, or will relish in bringing the knives out, no matter what?

GRRM: I do see comments online from people, and sometimes they email me directly. I’m also concerned about a similar thing with my book. As you know, “The Winds of Winter” is very, very late — the last book was 11 years ago, and people are very angry about that. But how many people?

“House of the Dragon” and any other spinoffs that are coming, and “The Winds of Winter” when it comes, are going to face some immediate backlash, and some resistance from people who don’t even want to give it a chance.

Let’s say “House of the Dragon” is a hit. What would be your ideal ambition here? An entire fleet of “Thrones” TV series?

GRRM: Well, we are developing a number of other spinoffs. There’s the Jon Snow sequel show, and the rest are all prequels. There’s “Ten Thousand Ships” about Nymeria — that’s like a thousand years before and about how the Rhoynar came to Dorne. That’s an “Odyssey”-like epic. There’s the nine voyages of Corlys Velaryon, the Sea Snake. That would take us to places in the world that we’ve never seen.

We have some animated shows going, one of which was set in Yi Ti, which is basically the fantasy version of Imperial China or the Far East. We got a terrific script on that. Obviously, not all these shows we’re developing are going to make it to air, but I hope that several of them do.

Is there a model you admire? Something like Marvel?

GRRM: I do like what Marvel is doing because I like the variety of the shows. Another model that I think was interesting was the old “Mary Tyler Moore Show.” That show generated a number of spinoffs: There was “Rhoda,” about her friend. Phyllis got her own show. And the one that really excited me was “Lou Grant.” They took this character from a sitcom and they made him the hero of a serious journalism show. That’s pretty amazing to take a character who is a comic foil and make him the center of a serious show. I’d like to see a range in our shows.

Before “House of the Dragon” was given a green light, HBO shot an entire pilot for a show that takes place 1,000 years before the events of “Game of Thrones.” It was eventually canceled. What went wrong with it?

GRRM: Well, I have not seen the pilot. For whatever reason they won’t show it to me, so I don’t know. It was, in some ways, more challenging because on that one, they’re really, really going back into the past. The Long Night is mentioned in my books here and there, but it’s an ancient event that people tell stories about — it’s like the Garden of Eden or a biblical flood. I remember when we were first developing it, I said, “You’re going back so far — if you decided to do a ‘Sopranos’ prequel, then you would be talking about the Etruscans, the ancestors of Tony Soprano. You might be talking about cave men.”

Tell me about your level of involvement in “House of the Dragon” versus your level of involvement with “Game of Thrones,” the original series.

GRRM: I am a lot more involved in “House of the Dragon” than I was in the later seasons of “Game of Thrones.” Now, mind you, I was very involved in the early seasons of “Game of Thrones.” Seasons 1 through 4, I mean, not only did I write a script, but especially like Seasons 1 or 2, I was giving a verdict on all the castings. I was reading the scripts. I was talking to Dan and David. I visited the set. But as the years went by, that involvement became less and less.

Will your upcoming books diverge from “Thrones,” the TV series?

GRRM: A lot of this story comes to me as I write it. I always knew once the show got beyond my books — which honestly I did not anticipate — they would start going in directions that the books are not going to go in. Now, as I’m writing the books and I’m making more and more progress and it’s getting longer, ideas are coming to me and characters are taking me in directions that are even further from where the show went.

So I think what you’re going to find is, when “Winds of Winter” and then, hopefully, “Dream of Spring” come out, that my ending will be very different. And there will be some similarities, some big moments that I told David and Dan about many years ago, when they visited me in Santa Fe. But we only had like two, three days there, so I didn’t tell them everything. And even some of the things I told them are changing as I do the writing. So they will be different. And then it’ll be up to the readers and the viewers to decide which one they like better, and argue about it.

When will the books be done?

GRRM: No comment. No comment. No comment. I get in trouble every time I do that. I mean, going back like 10 years, I said, “Oh, I should be done next year.” And then it’s not done next year. And then: “George lied to us.” I’m no good at predicting these things. And some of it depends on how many other interruptions there are and all that. I’m in a pretty good place now, so I’m optimistic. But I’m not going to make any predictions.

#grrm #asoiaf #game of thrones #house of the dragon

[stormcloudrising]

I was wondering if you have any metas discussing the white walker threat. Or maybe know of any that you like? There’s so much content about Dany and the Fire threat and what GRRM is saying with it. But most of what I’ve seen about the Ice/white walkers is like “oh, it’s global warming” and then nothing deeper really.

Hi Nonny,

Thanks for the interesting ask. I tried to answer a couple of nights ago and accidentally deleted my response, which I think was much better than this one. I tried to remember everything I wrote but no doubt, I forgot some things and my second response is not as concise.

I have not written any in-depth metas on the White Walkers/Others yet. I add that caveat because the topic of the Others will play a big role in the final two parts of my Florian and Jonquil series.

The Others and their motivation are the great mystery that’s been hanging over the series since the opening prologue of AGOT. What do they want? Why are they back? Basically, what’s their motivation?

I will say that I don’t think it’s that they want to extinguish all known life to get rid of memory as was D&D’s BS explanation on the show. However, I do think that it’s possible they want to prevent humans from entering the weirwoods, and so on some level, their motivation maybe about wanting to get rid of the memory of the trees. It isn’t, as the show suggested to arbitrarily kill all living men. 

Nonetheless, even though D&D’s writing was atrocious once they moved past the books, and their explanation for the Others made no sense, I do think that they dropped many hints on the show about actual upcoming events in the books. This is what made their writing doubly horrible. They knew the actual outcome of the books but didn’t have the interest in putting in the effort and time to do the story justice simply because they wanted to move on to another project. 

I think that when TWOW comes out, fans will look back on the show and say, oh, that’s why D&D did that nonsense that made no sense. And yes, I do think that there is a very strong chance we get TWOW, but unless George is lying to us and he’s writing both books before making the publication announcement, I don’t think that we will ever get ADOS. 

However, there will likely be enough in TWOW to allow fans to extrapolate the ending of the series. The funny thing is that Dan and Dave may think and hope that fans may look more positively upon the things they did on the show, but, if possible, it will be even worse for them as fans will call them out even more for not following through on all the beats in George’s story.

George doesn’t write evil for evil’s sake ala Sauron and the Orcs. He also doesn’t write characters that are purely good like the Hobbits and the Elves who purpose is simply to oppose the evil villains. He, as he has said on multiple occasions, writes about the human heart in conflict. 

This says to me that there is much more to the story of the NK, the Others, and their motivation than is currently suggested on the page or from the mouths of characters. I suspect that their motivation will be more like that of Ineluki and the Sithi from Tad Williams’ Memory Sorrow and Thorn that George has said inspired him to write ASOIAF.

My other reason for thinking that there is more to the Others than meets the eyes is because their legend is closely connected to House Stark, and let’s face it, the Starks are the central protagonists of the story. 

This is not to say that past, current, and future Starks have not done, and will not do some arguably dark deeds that may surprise fans. They certainly will.  This is more obviously foreshadowed in Arya’s arc, but it’s there for Bran, and strongly for Jon and Sansa as well. Revenge is a dish best served cold after all.  

If you have read any of my essays, particularly my Florian and Jonquil series, you know that I’ve proposed that those two ancient characters were the NK and CQ and leader of the Others, and that the same will be true of Jon and Sansa. This may sound as sacrilegious to some as saying Dany will be the major villain at the end sounds to other parts of the fandom. Nevertheless, I think both will be the case.

I’ll be going into this idea in more detail in my last two chapters of the Florian and Jonquil series, but I propose that George has been setting up Jon and Sansa as the NK/CQ since the first book. Originally, I think the plan was for Jon and Arya to play those roles, but somewhere in the writing of AGOT, he switched it to be Jon and Sansa.

In my opinion, he’s been dropping clues since AGOT and has up the quotient in AFFC and ADWD, as well as the Alayne preview chapter from TWOW. These clues include Jon’s murder at the Wall; placing Sansa in the Vale; her coming up with the idea of Winged Knights to protect Sweet Robin to mirror the Kingsguard, and the little boy’s request that there be 8 instead of 7; the fact that Jon and Sansa are the only two starklings referred to as the Blood of Winterfell; Ghost and Shade; making them both bastards; and Harry asking for Sansa’s favor to name just a few.

George is an expert at wordplay as is the case with any good writer. He uses play on words throughout the text in most interesting ways where a sentence or passage can have double meaning. He does this in the Alayne preview chapter for TWOW when Harry the Heir asks Sansa for her favor the night before the Tourney begins.

He has good teeth, she thought, straight and white. And when he smiles, he has the nicest dimples. She ran one finger down his cheek. "Should we ever wed, you'll have to send Saffron back to her father. I'll be all the spice you'll want."

He grinned. "I will hold you to that promise, my lady. Until that day, may I wear your favor in the tourney?"

"You may not. It is promised to...another." She was not sure who as yet, but she knew she would find someone. —TWOW, Alayne I

George loves to use ellipses to indicate information is missing and to make the reader wonder what he might be hiding. Sansa tells Harry that her favor and all that implies is promised to another, or in other words…pun fully intended, her favor is promised to *an Other. *

There is another bit of wordplay in the same chapter that tips to Sansa being the CQ as well and this time it comes from Petyr.  Sansa the Chthonic Persephone character of the story descends to the underground granary, a symbolic underworld where the wheat is being stored for the winter. Here she meets with the pseudo-Hades and we get this dialogue.

“Yes," she said, "but he thinks that I'm a bastard."

"A beautiful bastard, and the Lord Protector's daughter." Petyr drew her close and kissed her on both cheeks. "The night belongs to you, sweetling, Remember that, always."—TWOW, Alayne I

The night belongs to Sansa. Interesting wordplay when you consider the tale Old Nan told the kids about the Night King. More importantly for this brief analysis is a certain part of her tale Bran remembers when at the Nightfort.

No, Bran thought, but he walked in this castle, where we'll sleep tonight. He did not like that notion very much at all. Night's King was only a man by light of day, Old Nan would always say, but the night was his to rule. And it's getting dark. —ASOS, Bran IV

When you consider all the clues tying Sansa to the CQ, one can see how the comment by Petyr, just as the new Long Night is about to fall mirrors the one Old Nan told to Bran. The NK was a man by day, but the night was his to rule…suggesting as LML and others have proposed, the night he ruled was the Long Night. And he did not rule alone, he had a queen by his side.

So, the night belongs to Sansa, and the night is also destined to be ruled by the NK who was also the Lord Commander of the Nights Watch, and the brother of the man who brought him down. See where I’m going.

Old Nan is right. It is getting dark, because winter is coming and the king and queen of the Long Night shall rule.

Regarding other metas about the Others, LML has a few theories, which you can find on his YouTube channel here. Sweetsunray is another person who has put forth some interesting hypothesis on her blog. LML’s theories are based on mythological symbolism, while Sweetsunray is partially centered around George’s previous writings in his Thousand World universe. I don’t necessarily agree with all their theories, but they are certainly thought provoking and worth a listen and or read.

Again, thanks for the ask.

#ask stormcloud #thoughts on this and that #the others #white walkers #the night's king #night's queen #corpse queen #asoiaf endgame #jon snow #sansa stark #house stark #florian and jonquil

[presidenthades]

I am doing very minor revisions of Daemon’s Handbook (mostly formatting and continuity errors), and I wanted to do some behind-the-scenes commentary before too much time passes and I forget my original thoughts. Here’s Chapter 8!

(Note that these commentaries aren’t canon to the verse until/unless the author writes them into the series. I might change my mind on a few points later, but these are the thoughts I had while writing.)

Rhaenys thinks Corlys was ignoring her letters in the Stepstones, but he was also really busy making sure Aegon and Aemond, who are teenaged boys prone to doing stupid things, didn’t accidentally kill themselves trying to nose-dive some pirates.

Luce’s status as heir to Driftmark is nebulous at first. When Laenor was alive, a) Laenor was heir and b) Corlys thought Laenor and Rhaenyra might still have a son. Now that Laenor is dead, by Andal tradition, Luce would be heir as eldest daughter (after Jace who’s slated for the throne). But one could argue that House Velaryon is Valyrian so it doesn’t need to follow Andal tradition.

Some might argue it’s better for Driftmark to stay in the male line to ensure the Velaryon name continues (which is something show!Corlys is big on), or Luce could be named heir but she has to marry within House Velaryon so she and her heirs keep the name. In this fic, Corlys affirms Luce as his heir, and not even Vaemond can complain too much about it because “daughters before uncles” is the norm for everything but the Iron Throne.

I have a thought that whomever Luce marries, Corlys might require that her eldest son/heir takes the Velaryon name (maybe all the children, who knows). So, uh, probably best if her husband is a second son/not the heir to his own lands 👁️👄🔹

*insert joke about Jace and Luce being the breadwinners while Aegon and Aemond are trophy husbands*

The more I read about medieval/Tudor history, the more intrigued I am by ladies-in-waiting. GRRM doesn’t flesh them out super well in his universe, and the show doesn’t have an infinite budget to go into the royal women’s relationships with LIW, but that’s what fanfic is for. I’ll go into more detail about it in one of the sequel fics. Jace is going to have an interesting bunch of LIW.

Rhaena and Helaena are taking notes about Luce’s suitors, but the notes are for themselves. As Rhaena discusses in Chapter 10, she and Helaena have unusual requirements for their potential husbands, and Luce is helpfully attracting a very large pool of eligible (and not so eligible) men.

I mentioned in a past commentary that Alicent likes Jace because Jace is proper and a good influence on Aegon. Alicent *does not* like Luce, whom Alicent perceives as being the opposite of Jace. (Alicent is lucky Baela isn’t interested in her children. Also when Joff gets older…😅)

I drop hints that Aegon drinks a lot less in canon. Part of it is Jace’s good influence, and part of it is that being in the Stepstones made him realize it’s really dangerous being drunk. (See: Chapter 7’s story about his hair catching fire.) He does get drunk during the wedding feast, because it’s his wedding and he deserves a treat.

In the show, all of Borros’s daughters look like adults, but in the book, Floris is 11 when the Dance starts (and Ellyn might be around that age). It makes sense that Floris and Ellyn are so young, otherwise I’m wondering why Borros has four unbetrothed adult daughters when Aemond comes knocking.

In this fic, I decided Cassandra is 16 (same as Aemond and Jace), Maris is 14, and the other two still younger. As the eldest, Cassandra is throwing her hat in the “Aemond’s potential wife” ring, and she has reasons to think she has a good chance. Baratheons have Valyrian blood and their ancestors have intermarried with Targaryens before. She’s also the heir to Storm’s End if her father remains son-less. (Unfortunately for her, Aemond is interested in a different heiress 🤭)

Baela being a mystery knight and attracting Cregan’s attention is a role reversal of the ASOIAF Harrenhal tourney with Lyanna and Rhaegar. I was originally going to have Daeron also join the lists, but I realized that was redundant with Baela in the picture, and he’s too small to pass for an adult male. So Baela got her moment to shine!

Why does Baela challenge those three Northmen? What do they have in common besides being Northern houses? I guess we’ll have to see in the Joff-centric sequel 👀 (Or you could dig deep into the ASOIAF wiki and try to find the answer.)

I decided to give House Velaryon a Valyrian sword since they *are* a Valyrian house. Corlys says Aegon and Aemond helped get the sword from Racallio Ryndoon after hosting a beach party. Racallio has many wives and he sometimes sends them to other men who seem like, uh, good sperm donors. I’m imagining that he might have made a similar offer to Aegon or Aemond or both. 👀 (In this fic verse, the boys would turn it down but the whole scenario would be hilarious, I think.)

I regretted making Daemon an idiot about fashion because it meant I couldn’t go into *too* much detail about Jace’s wedding dress. (But I have other fics in the works where I *can* go into detail!) Notice that Jace has a penchant for gold clothing and jewelry…because Sunfyre. ☀️

Is the story about baby Jace and Aegon a metaphor for how he supports her claim to the throne? Yes. Yes it is.

Jace’s Princess Diana moment is a big part of her Good PR Masterplan. She’s gonna make the smallfolk love her if it’s the last thing she does.

The little exchange between Daemon, Rhaenys, and Viserys during the ceremony reflects how I imagine their childhood was like. Daemon’s always squirming during sept services, Rhaenys pinches and pokes him to make him behave, and Viserys is a tattletale.

The Faith is supposedly based on Catholicism, so I leaned hard into the kneeling during services so Daemon has another thing to complain about.

Not gonna lie, I kinda want to write a short fic where the Dance does happen in this universe, partially because Aegon thinks he has to be king to keep/protect Jace. 🥲 Don’t know how the logic works out, but it’s fanfic, we’re here for the vibes.

During the feast, Rhaena and Helaena are talking to Daemion Velaryon and Garmund Hightower about the Fake Husband Project. Helaena will probably end up marrying Daemion (paper marriage only), but I don’t think Rhaena/Garmund is going to happen. We’ll see.

I’m kinda sorry but not actually sorry for Aegon’s song. I am proud I managed to make the rhyming and rhythm work. 😇

#my writing #hotd #house of the dragon #hotd fanfic #meta #hotd fic #house of the dragon fanfic #daemon’s handbook

[ladymelisande]

Ok. I need an answer to that. 😂 How does a marriage with Daemon strengthen Rhaenyra's claim? I hear Daemon is a pure Targaryen, brother of the king, grandson of the former king, etc. But in fact, what does Daemon bring to Rhaenyra exactly? An alliance with the Velaryon? Already done with the planned child marriage. Let's be realistic, Daemon does not bring her anything. He is a second son who had nothing of his own until he married Laena. And again, Rhaenyra already has the Velaryon on her side. Even in terms of political alliance, Daemon was already his staunchest supporter. Their children were engaged, Rhaenyra didn't need a wedding to be on her side. Even the book doesn't address any political reasons for their marriage, not even on Daemon's side. Yet many argue that Daemon wins, but regardless, he never took advantage of his status as future king consort, or even king consort. So even for Daemon it doesn't work to marry Rhaenyra for political reasons. If that was the case, he didn't have to be presented as always by her side during childbirth, which even the most loving men didn't do. It's clear that Daemon loved Rhaenyra by that simple fact. Rhaenyra would once again benefit from the marriage because Daemon strengthens her position, but really I don't understand how at all. Apart from himself, as a husband, he brings her nothing. Because once again, he was already his ally before. Like, really, just because Daemon marries her claim is strengthened? Okay, but then just on the surface because he's a "pure Targaryen" with whom she will have "legitimate" children, but in practical terms Daemon brings nothing politically to Rhaenyra! I don't understand why people keep saying otherwise.

Because the stupid show tried to paint Rhaenyra's proposal as just her asking him to be with her to fight against the Greens... Which later just gets dropped because apparently, fighting for her throne is now 'Daemon's war', not Rhaenyra's, because women are peaceful little angels that can't possibly want war and all men are evil and brutal. 🙄

I mean, I am all for angst of her proposing him to make him stay and for Rhaenyra being the persuer of the relationship, but the fact that they tried so hard to make it less romantic is just... Stupid and Usamerican. Rhaenyra didn't need to ask him marriage to have him by her side to fight the Greens because he is already her fucking uncle and of course be would fight for her.

Rhaenyra didn't marry Daemon for politics in the books, she clearly married him for love because she risked everything by married him. Viserys could have very well disenherited her, especially now that Otto Hightower was again at his ear and it was only luck that he didn't. She was already pregnant! Why would she if she just needed him for politics? She risked both scandal and losing her position as heir, for heaven's sake. I don't know much clear GRRM had to be that it was a risky, stupidly romantic eloping.

This is why I laugh about those unrealistic fics going like 'oh, if Rhaenyra was smart she would have convinced Viserys of how marrying Daemon was the best political match' because first, Viserys would have never agreed to that match. And second, it wasn't the best political match. Literally everyone else with an actual army would have been a better political match.

So, Daemon didn't bring anything to Rhaenyra's claim, nor she needed to marry him to strengthen her claim. Of course, Gyladyn suggests that and how much of pure Targaryens Aegon and Viserys were because he is a misogynist piece of garbage that didn't think Rhaenyra's own blood was enough for the Velaryons boys to be on the throne.

#may answers #rhaenyra targaryen #daemon targaryen #daemon x rhaenyra #asoiaf #hotd

[aegor-bamfsteel]

Why do you think there are no Tyrell and Tully(except Cat) pov in books?

Question: Who do you think to be the most important characters? GRRM: They’re all important. I don’t favor them, or I don’t think of them in terms of importance. The viewpoint characters in the first book I have Bran, Tyrion, Catelyn, Ned, Jon Snow, the two girls Arya and Sansa.  There is the core of the Stark family plus Tyrion to represent the Lannister family. Then I have Dany on the other side of the sea, Daenerys Targaryen.  Whose story runs parallel and some ways doesn’t connect to the others, but some day I’ll eventually bring those two stories together. In each subsequent volume I drop some of my viewpoint characters and add new ones.  Although the same core still dominates, the cast changes somewhat, and I like to do that. —GRRM 2001

If I had to guess, it’s because there was never any need to. An example of a POV that needed to be added was Cersei’s in AFFC; Tyrion and Sansa had already left King’s Landing, so there needed to be a POV there to show us what’s going on, since it’s such a prominent series location, and Cersei was a good choice as a prominent supporting character.

The Tyrells by contrast, come from the peripheral location of Highgarden. Their true intentions are kept a mystery to the readers/characters several times to preserve suspense (arriving to save the KLers, killing Joffrey, plotting to marry Sansa to Willas), so having a POV would ruin some of that. There’s also their function as a foil to the prominent POV Lannisters, which crosses over into projection (see Cersei speculating on Loras/Margaery as lovers), so making their motives more obvious may complicate the message. The areas where they’re active, King’s Landing and the Reach, already have POVs in Cersei and Sam, so there’s no need for a Tyrell POV.

Same for a Tully POV. No POV preserves some of the mystery of where Blackfish is going, or what Hoster did with Lysa, or even Lysa’s role in her husband’s death, and there’s nothing important Edmure knows Catelyn doesn’t (narrating what happened after the RW would not be worth a chapter when we see what happened in Jaime’s POV). The area where the Tully men are active is narrated by Catelyn, and them treating her as a nagging mother/sister/favorite niece is more of an important part of her character (she’s been waiting for the men her whole life doing her duty swallowing frustration) than theirs. GRRM pointedly doesn’t do King POVs, and aside from Ned doesn’t do Great Lord POVs either, because they have the power to move the plot entirely rather than be somewhat under the control of their Lords/family. House Tully is powerless by ADWD, down to a lord and an unborn baby, and what’s going to happen to them can be told in other POVs (Jaime’s, GRRM seemed to indicate the Prologue TWOW POV would cover what happens to Edmure’s escort). The Tyrells meanwhile are powerful movers of the plot, but still have hidden motivations, and they can be seen in other POVs as well.

#ask #asoiaf #pov #opinion

[esther-dot]

My wildest prediction about TWOW is that

the removed timeskip has caused him great angst

and so therefore

the mad man has been figuring out how to integrate it again into the story.

Other than possibly one of the most severe cases of procrastination (I have deep compassion for GRRM) this glaring structural problem--- not merely just a gaggle of POV's stinking up the place--- affects his endgame the most. It might've seemed like a good idea to discard until he realised he cannot literally write through the timeskip (like with AFFC/ADWD) without adding an extra two books to his endgame (recall that the series is bloated past three books for the initial concept) at a minimum and without completely screwing up many characters' arcs, not just on the basis of age.

So yeah, his Gordian knot is how to insert a timeskip and whether that's appropriate, and I think that at some point he unknotted it a few years ago, around 2020-2021. Given how long AFFC/ADWD took to write, I would expect TWOW in 2025 or 2026.

I feel like this explains both why it's taken so long and how the show endgame figures into the books. I still think it's a possibility he's chosen to discard it altogether and he's going to pull an [Author's Note: these characters are aged up, DON'T LIEK DON'T READ, I'm not tagging as underage!!!].

And yeah GRRM is probably going to write the blush of first (forbidden) love, it's just a matter of whether that follows on into a serious betrothal/marriage for Sansa. Out of any romance in the series, you would be hoping that Jon deeply respects her Winterfell belongs to my sister Sansa and would not ever take advantage of her. GRRM will hear it first from me.

Oh, now this is very interesting. He sounded so good in some of his TWOW updates, I really did think he was almost done, but I'm leaning towards another year+ writing too. Sigh. I do often think about his plan to "write through it" when he dropped the skip, and worried it meant just what you said--more books!

I’m laughing so hard over this,

[Author's Note: these characters are aged up, DON'T LIEK DON'T READ, I'm not tagging as underage!!!].

when I first joined the fandom, so many writers were uncomfortable with the book ages they either just wrote show fic or had notes like that. Book canon but everyone is five years older 😂

I go back and forth on Jon’s ending a lot and therefore, the path Martin would take for Jonsa, but I’m not worried about Jon respecting Sansa’s rights or desires. The Alys scenario tells us so much about him. If Jon is to be KitN, Sansa will be an advocate, if theirs is to be a forbidden love/secret marriage story, I think she’ll prolly make the first move. He’s a good kid, I have no fears there.

#dot chat