#and idk thinking back i definitely had empathy towards manipulative characters before | Explore Tumblr Posts and Blogs

mariaiscrafting · 3 years

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ahhhh ty ty ty <3

ok, so I think that what makes Dream act this way (iykyk) is how dreamwastaken became so big so quickly. and by quick I mean fucking lightning speed.

he didn't have enough time to learn enough about cc etiquette, especially in these three aspects: influence, boundaries and fanbase/stans/whatever you call it. I'll try to explain it:

• Influence: Does he know the influence he has? Like, when he hears that he is the myct with the largest fanbase, does he really process that? I remember he talked about not being able to control all of his fanbase and there's bad apples everywhere -- which is true, and that only like 1% of his fanbase breaks his boundaries (that include sending hate for him, harassing, doxing, etc. yk, basic twitter culture lol) but, honey, with your big ass fanbase, 1% is still a lot of people. As a content creator you *have* to be aware of that.

let's take the hbomb situation. First off, as a streamer, it's you that set the mood of the stream. Even if he was only messing around with his pals, even if they did say to do not send hate to hbomb, dt dunking on him created a toxic environment, which caused his fans being toxic towards hbomb and you know what happens next. Hell, when this happened, I was watching Tapl and he was watching them and he was crying laughing over them screaming bc they were just. so loud and so aggressive that it was kinda ??? Sirs, this is literally a Minecraft Stream lmaooo

my point is, that was not the road that dreamwastaken, 21M fans, should've taken. he don't condone his fans actions but he knows his fans are diehard and will always be on his side, he should be more careful before stating negative opinions, especially if its towards another person.

• Boundaries and Fanbase: He posted a list of his boundaries a while ago, idk if you know or seen it (btw please george copy your bestie for the love of god <3) but I'm not talking about those boundaries, I'm talking about the basic boundaries between cc and viewer. boundaries that, in my opinion, should exist between cc and viewer. I get that Dream is an open person, an oversharing type of open person if I may add, but I think he should take a step back regardless. When I heard that he was taking a time from twitter, I genuinely got so glad, not because he couldn't start any drama then, but because it would do so so good for his mental health. I'm not even that fond of him, it's just that for me, any cc taking a break or outright leaving twitter is a win for me. I know how RSD is hard to deal and honestly letting shit out it's better but dream you have dt you have bbh so please don't make things worse online 😭 I know how good can be to feel validation from millions of people but. it's not a good idea, especially in the state that his fanbase is on rn (this topic is kinda sensitive to talk abt for me bc people be outright ableist and hide it as criticism like. say that shit's not helping his reputation and whatever without acting like he's fucking. manipulating his fanbase for being affected by his rsd💀 or, on the other hand, don't say that hes just being adhd🤪 when he's just being an asshole like damn that's a Him thing bro lol)

(omg it's so big I'm so sorry and theres a part two I'm so sorry tumblr user messed-up-gal ToT) - morango 1/2

pt. 2:

Dream is the proof that the people who loves you can be your downfall. istg. Have you noticed that every drama that Dream enters, people usually get more mad abt how his fanbase reacts (85% they'll react in a bad way) than Dream himself? it's not always, but its definitely more likely. I'm not saying Dream is saint, he Is petty and his ego does him dirty and made him choke multiple times before,, But! i dont think hes a bad guy. he's literally just a dude. ok, he's a 21yr old white gamer man that has a trumpie past (maybe?? idk. I think hes cured now ig lol) so he's bound to do some shitty things but he still tries to get better and hopefully he'll mature. 21 is old enough but it's still so young, yk? I kind of lost my mind during the end and my eyes are literally begging to be closed so tl;dr: Its gonna be hard for him to become a better cc bc his fans don't let him be criticized (by infantilizing his adhd symptoms or the mob mentality as soon as someone says anything abt him), the honest criticism get lost between lies from antis that don't know shit, he still has a lot of growing up to do and overall he became famous too fast and he needs to learn things even faster bc as soon as there's not a single one dream hater on sight they'll turn their back and attack him instead lmao I hate twitter i definitely have more to say but I'm tired and my memory is shit. just-- hate dream if you want, love dream if you want, nobody is obligated to have an opinion but I wanted to express mine. have a lovely day! -morango 2/2

Aight, there's a lot to unpack here, so Imma try to only go into the points I have something to add to (here's what I talk about in each paragraph, if you want to jump to a specific point):

Speed of Dream's rise to fame

The "bad apples" in the Dream fanbase

Post-MCC HBomb stream

Not condoning versus actually condemning his fans

Manipulation & RSD

Criticism of Dream, his fanbase, and his brand

The “just a dude” argument, flipped

First, I agree that one of the many factors that has resulted in the current image Dream has set up for himself, the way his fanbase functions, the ways people hate on him, and the way the Dream brand functions, is the speed of his rise to fame. It's unique, and there are probably a hundred social/psychological angles that could be used to examine the exact effects of that speed upon all of these facets of the Dream Name; did rapid fame beget the rapid rise of unrighteous hatred, did those waves of hatred then instigate the rise of a surprisingly overdefensive fanbase, did that rapid fame get to his head and/or result in an inability to appropriately handle all the after-effects of rapid fame, etc.? That point you bring up, about how the speed of his rise to fame requires him to learn even more quickly, is so interesting to me. I think that maybe Dream expected to get pretty famous pretty quickly, hence the preparedness in regards to some mechanics of influencer fame- merchandise, business-building, networking, knowing how to manage his fanbase to best benefit him. But I don't think he expected to get this famous this quickly. This is all speculation of course, as are this entire post and your ask, but I think that he just couldn't anticipate having to learn how to handle enmasse controversy, waves of antis, or every Youtuber speculating/knowing about him; and yeah, that results in him having to learn all of these things very quickly, lest he allow his whole brand and fandom to fall apart.

Second, I disagree with the frequent argument that Dream's fanbase is only marginally toxic. Personally, I think that the circumstances of Dream's fame, his personality and management of his fanbase, and his brand of content have resulted in the very specific kind of stan that Dream stans are. I don't think this is simply a case of "all fandoms have a small percentage of assholes who take it too far;" rather, the nature of the community itself breeds the kind of mentality of "an asshole who takes it too far." I only even know this because I was a Dream fan (kinda a stan, I'm ngl). At one time, I watched every single Dreamwastaken & Dream Team video multiple times; I listened to the Manhunts on repeat, as though they were podcasts; I followed mostly smiletwt and dttwt accounts on mcyttwt; I had upwards of 10 tabs for AO3 DNF fics open on my phone at a time; I watched DNF and Dream Team Being A Family-esque compilations on repeat; I watched every George and Sapnap alt stream I possibly could; I went out of my way to defend Dream against Redditors and Twitter antis regarding the cheating scandal. For the latter half of 2020, and a couple months of 2021, I lived and breathed this part of the fandom; so when I say that Dream stans are a whole other breed than any other kind of mcyttwt stan, I say that because I used to be like that, too. I usually use parasocial very loosely or ironically, but Dream stans are genuinely one of the most parasocial fanbases I have ever seen or been a part of. The level of investment Dream stans have in this man's life, the lengths they will go to to defend him, the amount of psychonalysis and digging they do on his life and character, the amount of emotion he can evoke in them- it's taken to another level, man. This isn't just characteristic of a fraction of his fanbase; this is what the fanbase is like as a whole.

Third, I partially disagree with your take on the HBomb thing, but not in the way one might think? I actually empathize with the way they reacted much more than I thought I would, simply because I suspect I have RSD (also suspect I have ADHD, have for several months now) and I can see myself getting insanely frustrated because of something like that. Like yeah, it was "just a MC stream" or "just an MC game," but that's kinda disregarding the fact that something that might seem like "just a [insert inconsequential thing]" to a rational mind might have a major emotional consequence/take a major emotional toll on someone with RSD, or really anyone who gets easily impatient/angry about video games (Sapnap reminds me of many of my friends, in that way). The issues I, personally, had with the way they handled the HBomb situation is that these are simply explanations and reasons for my empathy; they are not excuses. I have no excuse when I get irrationally angry about something inconsequential in my own life, for a couple of reasons. One, because I am an adult and I need to learn how to handle my reactions and manage my own anger. Two, because as someone with many mental problems, it is my responsibility to learn coping mechanisms to ensure my own emotional stability and livelihood; this includes learning whatever I need to handle RSD- whether that be isolating myself from others when I know I will become violently/passionately angry about something, creating and sustaining a support system that can get me through bouts of extreme emotion, finding healthy emotional outlets for my negative emotions that won't harm myself or others, or a combination thereof. I don't think what they said about HBomb post-MCC was an irreversibly horrible thing, or anything. I think there were errors committed by two men who should be fully capable of foreseeing and preventing those errors, but I don't unconditionally hate Dream or Sapnap for the post-MCC stream or comments. I just wish they had made amends quickly, publicly, and sufficiently, because the greatest consequences from the whole thing weren't even from those two criticizing HBomb themselves; they were from the waves of backlash because of their immense influence on the MCYT fandom, which could've been prevented, if they had acted maturedly and responsibly after the stream.

Fourth, you’re right, that he doesn’t seem to condone his fans’ behavior. I detest the frequent anti argument that one of the reasons Dream should be criticized is because he explicitly uses his fanbase to attack others, or something of the sort. Personally, I think he created his fanbase in a very specific way and interacts with them in such a way so as to benefit him as much as possible, yes, but he never actually tells his fanbase to go and yell at or harrass anyone. Still, there is a significant difference between not condoning something and condemning something. It might seem unfair, and it might be annoying of me to say this, but I truly think that someone with this large a fanbase, especially one as overzealous as Dream’s, needs to be condemned every single time it goes on some kind of rampage/harrassment campaign. Either that, or Dream needs to make a definitive, permanent statement against any kind of harrassment of others on his behalf. I know he’ll occassionally make the odd tweet or serious stream addressing something his fanbase did, but one of the many reasons his fanbase keeps doing the same damn thing is because he’s so lukewarm and spotty about this condemnation. A fanbase like his needs to be given explicit guidance and boundaries for the numerous things they do in his defense- harrassing/doxing antis, harrassing people who criticize him who aren’t antis (respectful criticism, other CCs, other MCYT stans, etc.), harrassing the people he critcizes (i.e., HBomb), speculating about his personal life (his relationship with his gf, his mental health/ADHD, his romantic life, his childhood, etc.), and speculating about his relationships with his friends and colleagues. My personal ideology is that, if you have significant influence over someone or a group of people, you are at least somewhat responsible for the things those people do or don’t do, if it at all relates back to you. I’m so fucking tired of the argument that CCs aren’t responsible for what their fans do. Obviously they aren’t responsible for every single one of their fans, and obviously they can’t fully control their fans at the end of the day. But I think there are certain things that reach such a level of extremity that does make those CCs responsible. This can be measured by either scale or intensity; that is to say, if a CC’s fanbase does things on an extremely large scale, or one person from/a fraction of the fanbase does something really extreme, then the CC is made all the more responsible. Another CC I’ve always had trouble discussing with other people on this subject is Pewdiepie, in particular, about the extremists in his fanbase. Because the things a small handful of his fans have done in reference to him and/or in his name were so fucking extreme, I thought Pewdiepie had to take at least some responsibilty. Along a similar vein, because the things Dream’s general fanbase does are so widespread and on such a massive scale, Dream has to take at least some responsibility.

Fifth, okay. Hmmm. I want to tackle this point you made about the ableism he faces in some criticism of him carefully and with empathy, but not coddling. One, I do think a lot of the criticism he receives for the ways he handles criticism (post-cheating Tweets, reactions to John Swan, post-MCC HBomb stream, etc.), disregard his RSD and can be oftentimes ableist. I’ve actually encountered people irl who criticize this aspect of Dream’s character, and have had to explain to them their disregard for how ADHD/RSD affect neurodivergent people’s reactions to criticism. But - and this is a big, and very controversial but - I think mentally ill/disordered people can 100% leverage their mental illness/disorders for the sake of manipulation. This is actually something I’ve learned from a psychiatrist, regarding the ways people I know and I handle our anxiety and depression. This manipulation can be unwitting or intentional, but it is entirely possible, and the possibility shouldn’t be entirely dismissed as ableist. Living with a mental illness or disorder that others know about/that you are very public about puts you in an interesting position to receive frequent sympathy, empathy, and/or pity. I’m not saying that empathy for Dream having ADHD/RSD is entirely unjustified; on the contrary, I have frequently expressed how I can relate to his ADHD symptoms and have defended him for expressing those symptoms, both on mcytblr and in real life. I am saying that Dream fans tend to use his ADHD as a kind of shield for a lot of criticism levied against him, including the supposition that he could be manipulating his fanbase to defend him because of his public expressions of RSD. So yes, my theory is that Dream knows how to levy every aspect of his life for his personal gain and for the growth of his brand, and that includes his ADHD. I think he has courage for his openess about his ADHD, I think his openness has contributed to the rise in awareness of mental health and empathy for neurodivergent people within Gen Z, and I think at least some of his expressions of RSD publicly/online weren’t intentionally made public. All that being said, I also think he has to know just how much his fanbase cares about defending him for his ADHD, and I think he has to know that some of the things he does related to his neurodivergence endear him to his audience, in a coddling, baby-ing, mildly ableist sorta way. Maybe this is all incredibly presumptuous of me. Of course, I can never know the real intentions behind any Dream video, Tweet, or stream. Maybe I’m just projecting, because I can see myself doing just this, if I had the maturity I had circa 2018-2019. Idfk know, man.

Sixth, I actually agree with you here, people probably do get more mad at his fanbase than him. Dream puts out content pretty seldomly, considering the frequency of content output for other Youtubers/streamers in his field/at his brand size. And yet, he has received masses of criticism. Considering that the things Dream himself does/says do not entirely correlate with the amount of criticism he receives, I think it’s a logical assumption that a lot of that criticism actually goes back to the size of his presence online, rather than the man himself. That is to say, because of the massive community he’s amassed, the exponential growth of his fanbase, their presence on every single social media site and in virtually every single Internet space/fandom, and the size of his metaphysical presence in his fields, Dream is much bigger than the man himself, so the criticism he receives will, at least in part, be a direct or indirect result of all these other aspects of the Dream brand. Something I don’t think many Dream fans/stans, or even most MCYT fans in general, understand, is that Dream isn’t just “one guy” in the eyes of the Internet- at least, not anymore. He hasn’t been for nearly a year. Like Pewdiepie, Mr. Beast, and other CCs who have amassed similar levels of fame and wealth via Internet content creation, Dream is a brand now, and most people will treat him as such. He isn’t just some uwu soft boy playing Minecraft anymore. He is on a whole other level from any other MCYT in his friend circle or colleague interaction bubble. His words will never again live in a vaccum or private bubble, his friend circle will never again be under anything less than intense scrutiny, his past actions will never again be simple mistakes or silly errors, his words will never again be casual tweets or streams for laughs among a couple thousand followers. Dream’s name represents something much bigger than just the one man. As such, all aspects of his brand, including his fanbase, will tie back to him and, ultimately, to any general criticism of him.

I’m not saying I like any of this, and I actually think the evolution of influencers from people to a marketable brand with similar mechanisms, responsibilities, and liabilities as a corporation is some kind of late capitalism nightmare fuel; I’m just stating my own observations and theories as to why so much anti-Dream criticism seems to be directed at his fanbase, rather than him.

Seventh, he’s just a guy, you’re right, but I think a lot of the antis on Tumblr understand this more than you know. As I’ve seen it, the sentiment among much of the “DSMP stans DNI” crowd seems to be that of “Dream/other MCYTs are such ‘bad’ people, so why do their fans stick to these mediocre, racist men, when there are so many better people to watch/better content to consume?” We know this argument is flawed for many of the obvious reasons - the conflation of all MCYTs’ actions regardless of individual identity, the equating of a CC’s fanbase’s morality to that of the CC they enjoy watching, the exxageration of any error MCYT CCs have committed as bigotry/racism, the fundamental misunderstanding and misinformation that led antis to believe this exxageration of the facts, etc. But I want to focus on the general, underlying sentiment of, “why not watch someone better, when your creator is problematic?” Sometimes, I ask this of Dream stans. Yes, being mildly ignorant, getting involved in the scandals Dream has, and being a right-leaning/libertarian centrist in the recent past all seem like harmless things, all things considered. One could say Dream isn’t nearly as bad as many antis who are misinformed seem to believe, and that there are much worse CCs Dream stans could be watching and creating fan content for. But I think what Tumblr antis wonder is, aren’t there also much better MCYTs/CCs people could be watching and stanning? Because he’s just some guy, right? Is his content truly so exceptional or is he really so exceptional a person, that people have to stick by him, despite the things that spike up regarding his current or past actions? I think that’s what made me finally decide to stop watching Dream. I realized he was just Some Guy. The Dream Team was a comforting dynamic to indulge in, DNF was a cute ship to read and speculate about, and Manhunts were fun videos to watch; however, once the Reddit posts came out and I read them in-depth, the cost-benefit analysis tipped over to the “not worth it” side for me. I realized Dream’s content, while fun and comforting, was not entirely unique, and wasn’t worth sticking around for, given what I then knew about his past political leanings. If he is just Some Guy, then there are a hundred more like him out there. There a hundred more ships, a hundred more found family dynamics, a hundred more entertaining and skilled Minecraft players. So while I agree with you on the point of people being allowed to love him regardless because he is just a guy, at the end of the day, I think that, if we are to believe that sentiment or use that argument in such a manner, we should also understand the flip side- that, if he is just some guy, why is it worth sticking around? To that I say, maybe because people just enjoy the simple things they enjoy.

Anyways, I wholly agree with your tl;dr. Thanks for that insanely long ask, this was a fun thing to keep me occupied while I’ve been at work, facilitating Zoom sessions this whole morning.

#ive been writing this on and off since 830 am est SHEESH #dreamwastaken #dream critical #eh i think im relatively lenient of him here given my past posts ab him #but still just in case the blacklist tags for yalls convenience:#discourse #/neg #asks #long post #long posts #this a LONG one bois #morango

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not-poignant · 4 years

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Hello, I love your writing and I love how you manage to write complex characters and antagonists I can totally sympathize with (Augus, my precious), so I was wondering if you have any advice on that? Also, how do you decide on a love interest for your MC? Sorry if this is too broad of a question, but your writing advice is always super helpful.

Hiya

I‘m glad you’re enjoying the writing! Honestly I don’t know if I’m going to do a good job of explaining these things, but I hope whatever I say helps!

Writing a sympathetic antagonist

Firstly, most importantly, they have to be sympathetic! I know I know, that sounds stupid, and obvious, but it’s true. Don’t expect every reader to still like your antagonist, they won’t. Not everyone likes villain, antagonist or even antihero fiction.

Re: garnering sympathy:

Show the character as genuinely vulnerable. (Consider Augus being hurt by Gwyn in the dungeon, even if most of it slid off of him, that gag certainly didn’t). (Consider that even though Eran is Mosk’s captor and actually not a very nice person, we understand his motivations for being mean - he has lost his entire family, and he believes Mosk is the reason. He’s shown experiencing constant culture shock, totally alone, and he doesn’t understand the new world he finds himself in). (Consider that Efnisien is living an extremely bleak life, post violent injury, and that he is shown to be vulnerable to his own patterns of thinking).

Show the shift in their attitude that makes them more relatable, or that gives the readers hope that they’re not about to revert back to who they used to be. (Augus clearly being far more even-minded and less destructive for the sake of it). (Eran constantly questioning how Mosk could be capable of his evil, and double-checking on himself, and it obviously being insecurity when he decides that Mosk is evil after all). (Efnisien is forcing himself to attend very personally challenging therapy sessions, and we can see that not only has he not hurt anyone in 3 years, we can see evidence of a life lived that tries to avoid opportunities to hurt people ever again).

Make them human, create common ground. Show them eating food, getting dressed, responding to a major (or minor) injury. Show them loving another character even if they only ever love one other character (Augus saying ‘careful’ to Ash in Shadows and Light was actually the moment that some readers fell in love with him or became intensely curious about him - and so while most readers came around to him in Game Theory, just having Augus genuinely love and feel protective towards his brother was enough to create sympathy and empathy). (Consider Efnisien and his love for Gwyn). (Consider Eran’s love for his family). Make it so that people literally can go ‘oh, I eat food that way’ or ‘oh, I’ve tried to hide an injury before’ or ‘that’s how I get dressed’ or ‘I hate summer too.’ Give them details that can stack up over time and create common ground.

In the case of characters who have done absolutely egregious things, whump the everloving fuck out of them. Like, this was legit a thing I did in Game Theory *deliberately* in order to create increased sympathy for Augus. Even people who have the most intense revenge fantasies re: a character burn out on them after a while. A person who is like ‘yeah I can’t wait to see them tortured and suffering and going through awful pain’ will, very often, get that and realise they didn’t want that much of it. And they will turn to sympathy instead. It’s worked an absolute fucking treat with Augus and Efnisien in particular.

Have someone who is worse opposite your antagonist. (Augus had the Nightingale. Eran has Olphix and Davix and, well, Mosk’s entire family. Efnisien has Crielle and Lludd). Give your villain a villain.

That’s it. You don’t have to make them ‘good.’ You don’t have to rationalise what they did. You don’t have to make excuses for what they’ve done or what they’ll do in the future. Your readers can make up their own minds on that, and they will, with or without your guidance. Augus can still be a waterhorse that eats people and sometimes uses compulsions because he’s impatient. Gwyn can still just straight up murder people without giving them much (or any) warning first.

When you don’t encourage sympathy based on a ‘good/bad’ binary, you can still have your antagonists and villains kind of stay where they are. They might do heroic things, they might do villainous things, the point of empathy is that they’re often doing and thinking relatable things, even if the subsequent actions aren’t themselves relatable.

I don’t do these things for villains that I don’t want to be sympathetic. But I must admit, I am enjoying showing different facets of Davix in The Ice Plague, even though I don’t really intend for him to be a transformed villain or anything.

Deciding on a love interest

This one is harder. Mostly because in some ways, it’s ‘simpler’ on the surface. All you’re doing is looking for a character who has qualities that strengthen your other character, and balance out the imbalances in your primary character and vice versa. They will need to have some things in common too. They also need to get along, and have a reason to get along (especially if it’s rivals to lovers).

Like, it’s hard to describe how I do this because I don’t spend a lot of time on this part. I tend to just...idk, ‘know’ what another character needs and build off that. And that’s fucking useless to break down for other people. BUT, it does mean I can at least use my doofuses as examples:

Augus and Gwyn: They are both people who favour diplomacy over war, but can be extraordinarily bloodthirsty when a situation calls for it, and they’re both actually pretty snarky and bitchy people (things in common). Augus is proud of his sexuality and does not see the point in not fully embracing who you are as a monster, Gwyn rejects his monstrous self and is not proud of his sexuality or his role as a sub (Augus strengthens Gwyn in this, and complements what Gwyn lacks). Gwyn is extremely bold and secure in his ability to manage a Kingdom and also protect his loved ones, he is very able to step forwards into his future decisively, fully confident in his ability to do what is best for the people around him and the nation (Gwyn strengthens Augus in this, and complements Augus’ insecurities in this area).

You can find lots of other examples of complementary traits in Augus and Gwyn in particular (Augus had a happier family, Gwyn didn’t. Gwyn has military and physical training, Augus mostly hasn’t. Augus understands fashion and courtiers, Gwyn doesn’t. Gwyn understands tracking and large-scale military operations, Augus doesn’t. Augus understands finer interpersonal relationships, Gwyn doesn’t. Gwyn understands politicking that’s specifically malicious or manipulative (like the Raven Prince, Augus doesn’t).

Mosk and Eran: They are both people who are extremely determined and share a common goal (Mosk took a little while to get online with that goal, but okay). They are both actually very earnest at their hearts and want people to be happy with them, and they both need guidance from people in positions of authority. They’re both hot-headed (in different ways, but they both absolutely fly off the handle all the fucking time). Ultimately, they want to feel warm and supported (things in common).

Mosk is extremely aesthetic and cares for beautiful things and scenery, at all times, he tends to tune into an environment based on its beauty, Eran on the other hand tends to be a bit stuck in the past, and isn’t always quick to see the beauty in the present. (Mosk enriches Eran’s life in the present, but helping him to focus on what might be beautiful in the present). Eran likes to feel as though he’s helping people and he needs to feel needed, Mosk needs someone to take care of him (Eran enriching Mosk).

Tbh you could come up with a lot of examples. Places where they ‘complement’ each other are also places of potential conflict. Eran being hopeful and optimistic is definitely a point of contention between Mosk and Eran when it clashes against Mosk’s pessimism, even though it’s good for Mosk to be around more hopeful attitudes, and it’s good for Eran to be more realistic sometimes.

ANYWAY. Basically, yeah, I... this second part I’m a lot worse at, sorry. The process of coming up with love interests is very organic, and I don’t actually like, sit down and plan these things. Which means I don’t have a formula to share. (I am very much just making shit up as I go).

Idk if any of that is helpful, but I hope it is. <333

Please don’t listen to my writing advice lol.

#asks and answers #dodgy advice #pia on writing #pia on characterisation #fae tales #i feel like i've answered a lot of comments and asks in the past #about how characters have opposing views #or skills #that actually marry up really well together #in fanfiction #Jack and Pitch were probably the most obvious ones for this #i can't believe how long this post is #you know other authors could say this in like 10 lines?#amazing #wanderinggods

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sunsetsover · 5 years

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i think ben has feelings for callum, not so sure callum has feelings for ben, i do think their maybe an attraction from callum end maybe before the i smell a queer scene, when ben said callum got looks and a sense of humour and is the full package and doesn't understand why he doesn't like himself, callum seemed a bit flustered by that. i think ben was intrigued from callum from the start, he introducing himself to callum, digs at callum/whitney and eyes on callum when went serve customer.

i kind of agree with you but also i kind of don’t.

i absolutely agree that ben was intrigued w callum from the start, though idk if it was necessarily attraction? i think it was more curiosity than anything else, esp after he saw callum in the park w the bottle. callum puts out this air of a kind of happy-go-lucky guy that doesn’t have a care in the world that very few people have got to see past, and yet ben got to see through it almost straight away (accidentally, of course) and i think that contrast piqued ben’s interest. like since he came back ben is someone who likes to know people’s weaknesses so he knows which buttons to push, how to exploit ppl. it’s just the kind of person ben is. so i don’t think that intrigue was necessarily romantic/sexual at the start.

so like when ben said that at the car lot abt looks and a sense of humour etc i think that was him a) just being himself (i mean look at how he’s flirted w ewan, keanu etc, i think that’s just a part of his character now) but also b) him trying to sell that dodgy van on and get it off his hands bc he saw an easy target in callum. ben is a clever manipulator, and when he saw what was going on with the stuart/whitney situation, he exploited that in order to guilt callum into buying the van for whitney, thus getting rid of his problem. he didn’t really care what happened to callum after that, he just wanted the van gone. and he flirted w callum in order to try and disarm him, but also have a bit of a dig (’i can’t understand why you don’t like yourself’) bc that’s just the kind of guy ben is. and ofc callum got a bit flustered bc at the end of the day he is still a repressed gay man being flirted with by a openly gay man. but again, i don’t think really think there was anything between them at that point beyond ben’s curiosity and seeing callum as an easy target.

it’s when when callum had ben pinned, that seems to me when there was some kind of switch in callum that got flicked. it’s not like ben’s not attractive. and there was some serious sexual tension in that moment without either of them meaning for it to be there. and of course ben picked up on it and immediately makes a snarky remark (’i smell queer’). but i actually don’t think either of them are particularly that interested in each other even then. they just had a moment. (and!!! something i’ve not seen anyone talk about before is the fact that ben initially seems like he wants to help callum until he says ‘i ain’t nothing like that’, which is lowkey homophobic, and ben immediately switches and becomes defensive and vindictive. i think that’s really interesting bc that’s a pattern later on too - ben tries genuinely to help callum, some (usually homophobic, usually stuart/jonno based) bullshit happens and ben immediately backs off from callum and begins being cruel again. it’s something i haven’t seen anyone talk about!!!)

i think the first time feelings get somewhat involved is at the housewarming where ben tells callum abt paul. it’s then that callum realizes ben isn’t actually all bad, he’s just hurting and lashing out, and actually he has a surprising capacity for love underneath it all. and ben is obviously touched that callum stood there and heard him out and was kind to him even though he himself knew he probably didn’t deserve it. which is why he went out of his way to thank him the next morning - even though he was obviously very embarrassed and callum probably hadn’t been expecting it. that’s when both of them realize that actually, there’s more to this person than they had first thought. ben shows callum a lot more empathy and tries to be supportive after that (though he does flip flop but like i said, that’s usually linked to violent homophobia at the hands of callum’s family, which is absolutely understandable tbh), and callum is much more willing to sit and listen to what ben has to say.

then obviously it all culminates with what happened at the park, which is why i don’t agree that ben has feelings but callum doesn’t. callum is obviously someone who takes sex and relationships very seriously. he was a virgin when he got w whitney, even though he had had something going on with chris (and i’m p sure he told whit he had had opportunities to have sex in the past but he didnt bc it didn’t feel right, which just emphasizes the point) - he clearly isn’t the type to just have sex with someone for the sake of having sex. i mean he literally said in the same episode if he has sex with someone, it has to mean something. i don’t think he would have had sex with ben had he not had some degree of feelings for him. callum obviously felt smth for ben by then, otherwise i highly doubt he ever would have gone there in the first place. and if he didn’t before, then he definitely does now. (that said, did callum call ben to the park that night knowing something was going to happen? idk. like i believe he just wanted to warn ben off, but he must have known deep down that there was a chance something might happen, surely.)

i guess you’re right though that ben is developing feelings more obviously than callum. i mean like callum is the first person in a long time who isn’t family that is showing him kindness, and he sees a lot of himself in him. like yes he has a lot of problems, and the situation with his dad, but he has a lot less going on in his head than callum rn. at least his sexuality is the one thing he doesn’t need to be confused abt anymore. bc callum is clearly still messed up and is trying to deal w his feelings towards whitney and his own sexuality and men in general and this desire to live a straight life and this thing with ben and now chris has come back too like?? he has a lot on his plate, bless him. ben isn’t his priority rn. but you only have to see at the way he looks at ben and how he reacts to ben’s name to know he feels Something.

and i mean you know they’ve only hooked up once!! they barely know each other when u think abt it. there’s obviously something between them, but is it capital f Feelings?? maybe not? not yet at least. but obviously there’s Something. a lot of chemistry, a lot of potential. the beginnings of feelings. i mean if there wasn’t anything why would we all be here !!!!

but ofc you have your opinions and i have mine!!! we all interpret things differently, and obviously i like to hyper analyse Everything lmao :-)

#ok who's next in line to have their ask completely over analysed!! i have a queue goin rn!!#goddamn i need to Relax lmao #ballum #eastenders #anon #question

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rorykillmore · 6 years

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heres kind of a more in-depth one: where do your characters fall on a morality scale? like from best to worst i guess

hmmmm this is trickybecause i wouldn’t necessarily say it’s a linear thing – like my charactersdraw different lines in the sand for different issues?? for example, some of mycharacters who will straight up KILL aren’t as comfortable being as being asmean or underhanded as some of the ones who don’t’, etc, but i made a sort ofrough order. it’s weird because, especially towards the middle, it’s not necessarily a ranking of who’s the best person, it’s just... complicated, idk

okay we have kara as thesort of, beacon of moral purity of my roster – she has a no-kill rule that’snot… quite as strict as clark’s or barry’s, like she’ll break it if it’s necessary,but given how powerful she is it generally. isn’t, and she’s also usually veryagainst overly brutalizing someone in a fight, or painful emotionalmanipulation, or collateral damage… the list goes on. she doesn’t even like beingmean to people in her day to day life! she will also like, dig her heels in andstand very firm behind her moral values, which almost makes me surprised thatshe and sasuke haven’t had more conflict than they have – but then again ithink sasuke generally tends to back off and let kara and ratchet do theirMoral Thing and it doesn’t come up as much of a problem since the superfriendsare powerful enough to handle most situations without being driven to moral extremes.anyways yeah. kara probably easily takes the moral high ground on the mostissues out of all my characters. she’s a ray of sunshine

okay next… this kindasurprises me but maybe glory?? now granted, this gets a little murky, becauseglory comes from a completely nonhuman society with different moral standardsto begin with and a culture that (for most of the tribes that were involved inthe war, at least) heavily revolves around violence. so yeah, glory will greeta threat with a face full of acidic venom if the stakes are high enough, buuutbeing a queen has generally made her… very honorable and even kind of lawful bydragon standards. she sticks to her word, she’s very fair, she doesn’t fall toextremes without very good reasons, she has a good heart that can generally berelied upon to do the right thing even if she pretends not to care as much asshe does. yeah.

then we have… maybe caitlin,who follows a lot of kara and glory’s standards and is generally a Good Person,but if i rate her a bit “lower” its because she has this like… survivaliststreak? like when she gets really scared she has a hard time letting anyoneelse help her, and instead she’ll close off and try to handle things on her ownand that’s when she sometimes makes more questionable, morally grey decisions. butoverall caitlin really means well and pretty much dedicates her life to helpingother people, so.

okay and then i guessmadeline! the very definition of “chaotic good”. i mean, she’s kind of hard to rank next to like... vigilantes and stuff, because her day to day experiences are like completely different. she’s not a very violent person but then again it’s like, why would she be, she lives a (relatively) normal life. so i guess my justification is just, madeline is very ride or die, but she’s not so much concerned with doing what’s “right” as she is defending the people and causes that are important to her. her heart is almost always in the right place, but she definitely reverts pretty easily to sabotage and underhanded stuff to get what she wants or just to one-up a rival or something. idk madeline fits weirdly on this list but

then maybe trish, who reallywants to do the right thing, really badly. is she willing to take more dubioussteps to get there than the people listened above? prooobably. trish tends toconcern herself with her end goal rather than her actual methods, which can bedangerous. i don’t necessarily want to point to all the stuff she did in season2 as an example, because a lot of that was influenced by her relapse, butstill. sometimes she’s willing to push pretty far if she thinks the end resultshe’s after is important enough. she’s also probably willing to go as far askilling more readily than anyone who’s been listed so far, though notnecessarily without good reason.

anya, i was honestly not sure whether to put before or after sara -- this is a prime example of one of those cases where two characters have such different standards that it’s hard to compare them, but whatever. anya... really does value her dignity and integrity as a person, but she can’t always afford to uphold them. sometimes her life necessitates her to resort to petty criminal shit like pickpocketing, conning, etc. she’s also... very independent, and really doesn’t have any kind of cause driving her or concern for the bigger picture of things, which also makes her hard to rank, but idk. at the end of the day she’s kind-hearted enough and likes to stay away from trouble on a bigger scale, so she can go here i guess.

and then i guess sara, who. idk, is weird to rank in her own way. she’s not always nice, but she’s... very kind, if that makes sense. she cares a lot about people, from this very individualized perspective as opposed to say, rip, who is more focused on the “greater good” or the bigger picture. sara often has way more qualms with sacrificing innocent people, or ESPECIALLY people she cares about, for the sake of any kind of cause. but also... she’s a former assassin, and will still readily kill her enemies without too much debate about it if she sees it as necessary. and that’s not even touching on the chaotic, destructive, lawless kind of stuff she’ll do on a regular basis just for the sake of a mission

i’m laughing at how comparatively low heather is ranking. neutral evil. nah i mean to be fair she just... kind of has the morals of a bratty teenager. so it’s almost unfair to rank her up against people like sara or w/e. she’d never kill anyone or... do anything like that. but she also pretty much lacks sara’s sense of kindness and empathy and compulsion to act on those things; heather really only makes an effort to be kind to... her friends. she still hasn’t reached the point where she sees why she should care about the world on a broader scope, so a lot of situations she’s just apathetic or... she can still even fall into being outright mean.

siobhan is next, because siobhan at this point is driven by loyalty to the people she cares about, and ultimately... deep down, she does actively want to be a better person. she just struggles with believing she’s capable of that. she’s still an asshole in a lot of situations and her bounty hunting is most definitely morally grey, she primarily just cares about making money, but... there is a growing part of her that wants to be more than that. and she’s already come a long way on denny, so she deserves to be ranked above...

killer frost. THIS asshole. although the thing is, in spite of her name, killer frost doesn’t actually kill people. in fact, she’s actively kinda uncomfortable with killing people, along with a lot of the more brutal tactics the bigger villains in her canon were capable of (or... well, the kind she’s seen already at the mld). so because of this, i almost ranked her above siobhan, but then i backtracked because tbh killer frost does not have the integrity siobhan has grown. she’s slippery, she’s known to turn on even the people she cares about if it benefits her enough, and otherwise she just... rarely cares one way or another about causes or morals or w/e. she CAN be swayed by extremely strong bonds, but that mostly entails team flash at this point, and they aren’t here

god okay i’m not sure lucille deserves the last spot on this list anymore, really, i just... didn’t know where else to put her, so she’s more of a footnote. we’ve reached the footnotes section. i don’t think lucille is even certain of what her own morality looks like; she’s done really terrible things for a really long time but she’s... been fighting hard to get away from that and do better. she’s still very, idk insulated, she doesn’t really care too much about the world around her if it doesn’t affect her or the people she cares about, but she tries to stay away from overly immortal situations.

dolores is another one where i just... have no idea where she’d fit on this. she’s killed people without even a FLICKER of remorse, or she’s let a lot of collateral damage happen to benefit her (ie this thing in canon where she let a bunch of confederate hosts get mowed down by human soldiers so she could lure said soldiers into a trap, but hey, they were confederates!). she, particularly when being swayed by her wyatt programming, is very capable of being extremely pragmatic and absolutely ruthless. but. context is everything. in her previous situation, she had virtually no reason to show the park guests any mercy. they were fucking horrible to the hosts, for years and years and years, and she really has no proof that she should be trusting or forgiving of humanity at this point. this is all she knows. on top of that, she’s the leader of a revolution in a situation where her kind are viewed as corporation property, where they literally have no chance at freedom without bloodshed (save for like, a few of them like maeve who are planning to sneak out of the park and blend in with humankind, but obviously it’d be completely infeasible for ALL of the hosts to do that), so she has to be fucking ruthless. so it’s like... idk on denny, i really don’t know where things will fall with all of this. so much is different.

my cats have absolutely no place on this list because warriors society and values are tremendously different and it’d be too much of a headache to try to compare, so

#idek what this list is honestly #I Tried #and it got very long #thanks eps!!#cuts dennys lvad wire #mikexxwheeler

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kylorendustries · 6 years

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Thoughts from TLJ

These are all straight up personal interpretation/theories/thoughts...if you disagree, that’s totally fine and feel free to ignore :

-I agree with everyone who said this film was about making mistakes/ character development. Can definitely see that.

- Though I do think it’s a bit out of character for Luke “I sense the conflict in you, father” Skywalker even think about killing his nephew, I can see how they had to write that narrative to explain Luke’s retreat to depression island/reluctance to train Rey. I suppose anyone is capable of anything, given the right circumstances.

- no question about Rey’s parentage. She comes from nothing and I love that because the best stories often start with people who came from nothing. What makes a person special is what they do with the gift given to them rather than what they’ve inherited. I don’t think Ben/Kylo manipulated that because he had her admit it for what it was. That’s why she saw herself in the mirror. Because she is what she makes of her self rather than being the product of special parents. And when he said, “you have no place in this story,” I think he was more so referring to “this story” being the legends that have been long told. That you have to come from something. That you have a destiny to fulfill because of your bloodline. I think it’s rather interesting that Ben has the bloodlines and the power but rejects the idea that he is subject to the “destiny” that entails. Whereas Rey comes from nothing, but desires to figure out how she fits into it all. It’s almost like she rejects the idea she could be important because she lacks the background. And is trying to make sense of her power through the lens of the “legends” she has heard about. She will have to accept that she’s her own person and her fate largely depends on her choices and not her background. Just a theory.

- I don’t buy into the idea that Kylo/Ben knew of the force bond and used as a manipulation tactic. It’s obvious he was confused by how the bond works/surprised when Snoke said he connected them. I think they had some connection through loneliness back in TFA and Snoke capitalized on it...and perhaps, that’s why their connection remains after Snoke is dead. That’s another thing...Ben said “you’re not doing this...the effort would kill you,” so maybe there is no effort put into the connection. It just happens when Rey and Ben feel loneliness/fear. Hopefully this will be explored more in the next movie.

-I think it’s important/foreshadowing that Snoke said “you have too much of the heart of your father” to Ben/Kylo. Still. Also not a coincidence that he picked up his father’s dice in his hand at the end. Han was usually a self preservation type of guy, but in the end he always came to the aid of people he cared for/followed his personal code of ethics. That’s why Ben couldn’t fire on his mom. I also think that is part of the reason he killed Snoke (to aid Rey). Idk. I’m still conflicted on this stuff.

- I’ve seen this 3 times now and just noticed in the force bond scene that when Rey is telling Ben how alone she felt in dark hole thing...he genuinely had tears welled up in his eyes when he told her she wasn’t alone. Maybe I’m wrong, but that’s what I saw. Someone who is genuinely capable of great empathy toward another person. Which is why he tried to comfort her by saying, “you’re not alone.”

- I think the code breaker telling Finn that “true freedom comes from not taking sides” is foreshadowing. This idea of balance...the only thing that makes sense, to end wars, is to find balance and not take sides.

- Everyone keeps saying Kylo/Ben will be the big villain in the next movie, but I think there will be a civil war/rise to power by Hux or someone else. There are heavy implications of that as Kylo/Ben wanted it all to die off and that ending scene, and Hux has a strong desire for power to maintain the first order. I think this attempt to kill/run off Ben/Kylo will drive him toward working with Rey.

- Similarly, everyone in the resistance hates Kylo/Ben and I think this will eventually alienate Rey from them. I have an idea on how that will happen, which I may post about later. But basically, I could see Rey having a connection with Ben and seeing he is in genuine danger from of the first order. She would likely advocate to save him from a grim fate and turn him...but the resistance would discourage her from doing so and probably encourage her to let him die off since she didn’t succeed in turning him the first time. Since she’s stubborn, I could see this being a break off point for her to protect herself and Ben...who she still believes in.

- Another thing that stuck out to me was when Rey chided Luke about Ben, saying Ben’s choice wasn’t made. Luke had just assumed it was and it became a self fulfilling prophesy because of what Luke did. I think that’s the whole thing with Ben/Kylo wanting to let the past die. He was always expected/ seen as being the future of the resistance. He had a lot of pressure on him to “fulfill his destiny” both on the light side and on the dark side. So he never really got his choice in life aboutnwho he wanted to be. He thought running to the dark side would give him freedom to choose his path, but it only manipulated him into another forced future (no pun intended).

-I wonder if the future Rey/Ben saw of one another were true to an extent. I think the one Rey saw, where Ben would not bow before Snoke came true as Ben killed him and they both fought together. However, Ben had a similar vision of Rey’s future that she would turn. So, I have two theories: 1. Maybe we haven’t seen this play out yet and it will in the next movie. I’ll save that explanation for another post. Or 2. Maybe he did have that vision, which is why he begged her to join him, believing she would accept. And watching that scene, it genuinely seems like she gave brief thought to it. But she ends up rejecting the offer. Rey made so much of a big deal about Ben’s choice being taken from him. What if this scene showed that you could choose your own path, regardless of what the “vision” or “destiny” is. Idk. That’s a far off theory, but I thought it might be interesting...the idea that you may have a prophesy about you, but it’s really your choices that define you in the end. Even if you fulfill destiny, you choose to do it rather than it being predetermined. Anyway, maybe that’s reading a bit too deep.

-I think part of the reason Luke showed up with a force projection was to protect Ben Solo from himself. Luke knew there was a ton of hurt and anger there...we also don’t know how close their relationship was prior to the event where Luke thought about killing Ben. So, Luke probably guessed Ben/Kylo would try to “strike him down in anger” so he took that choice away from him because Luke knew Ben would regret it in the end. Luke knew he couldn’t save Ben, but Ben’s connection/soft spot for Rey might be his saving grace. I think Luke knew that and that’s why he owned up to his own mistakes and also told Leia that “no one is ever really gone.” Luke is also a bad ass sass queen and I just loved him this whole movie.

-this makes me wonder if anyone knew it was a force projection besides Ben. Do Rey and Leia think Luke died at the hand of Kylo/Ben? Or do they know it was Luke’s own choice/doing?

-I’ll probably remember more stuff, but that’s all that stuck out to me the most. I think the next movie, we will see the good, bad, and the ugly of both the first order and the resistance. I think that Ben and Rey will both become alienated by their respective sides. I think this alienation will force them (pun intended) to work together and learn from one another. I think they’ll both realize that both the dark and light side of the force is necessary at times. And I think that (maybe) them being united, will help them take down the real enemy, which won’t be what we think it is. Probably the “machine” the code breaker referred to that really runs the show and profits from war. We shall see! It would also be fun to see some loyal knights of Ren team up with Resistance pals of Rey to achieve a greater good.

If you’re still reading, bless you haha. And if you have other theories on this stuff, I’d love to hear it!

#star wars #TLJ #Rey #Ben Solo #Reylo #reyben #Theories #luke skywalker #kylo ren #kylo x rey #TLJ Spoilers #reylo thoughts

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