#Spindlehorse Critical

[showtoonzfan]

The Stolitz duet is funny to me cause how many times is Stolas going to go through the same damn arc of realizing that Blitz doesn’t love him the way he does. First it was the Circus where he was looking at the Instagram photos and sang sadly about how what they had was a lie, then it was in Western Energy where he was reading Blitz’s emotionally closed off texts. In Oops we also see him take full action for the crystal.

Now in the Stolitz duet preview he’s still singing lovey dovey like a princess about how much he can’t wait to see Blitz and even makes him pancakes ect, like putting aside all the retconning and the bullshit Blitz victim blaming, how many times is he going to re enter this state of denial. And then the HB trailer shows him potentially (and finally) realizing Blitz doesn’t like him back so he bashes him for having “no remorse” and even sings a diss track with Verosika about it. And yet in the leaked animatic finale scene, we see Octavia say that he chose Blitz, even Stolas smiling at Blitz after the supposed fight scene, so we already know that whatever “will they won’t they” bullshit rift they have mid season, in the end it won’t go anywhere, just like every other dropped plot point in this show. It’s just for drama and it really makes you realize that Stolas’s entire character exists to be paired with Blitz. His relationship with his wife or his daughter doesn’t matter, isn’t the main focus UNLESS it ties to Blitz. His purpose is to be with Blitz and that’s it, no matter what other character Viv teases will come to take Stolas away from Blitz.

#vivziepop critical #spindlehorse critical #helluva boss critical #helluva boss critique #helluva critical #anti vivziepop #helluva boss criticism

[thowawayuntilfurthernotice]

I didn’t think it was possible, but Viv managed to find a way to make me hate her writing more than I already did.

Great job Viv.

#Vivziepop Critical #Helluva Boss Critical #Hazbin Hotel Critical #Spindlehorse Critical #Helluva Boss

[uniquepeanutcreatorfire]

HB Season 2 mindset: Instead of letting Stolas have natural development and show some organic growth, we’re going to LOWER everyone else’s (especially Blitz and Octavia) expectations, including the audience! 👍🏾👍🏾

#vivziepop critical #vivziepop criticism #spindlehorse critical #helluva boss critical #helluva boss criticism #helluva boss critique #spindlehorse criticism

[bump-inthe-night]

Vivziepop fans claiming adding black features to her black characters would’ve made it “too difficult” to animate them is a hilarious excuse considering this is the same woman who had characters like these animated:

Another excuse fans have been using is that Vivziepop’s art style is “unsuitable” for black characters, despite her crew members proving otherwise: 

No art style is "unsuitable" for black characters because it's the artist's responsibility to learn how to draw them in their style. There's no excuse for black characters not looking black in your style.

Vivziepop could draw black features in her style but CHOSE not to, hence why none of the black characters look black outside their skin color, which sometimes they don't even have.

#anti vivziepop #vivziepop critical #hazbin hotel critical #helluva boss critical #spindlehorse critical

[tocomplainfriend]

SPREAD THIS

Critical argument that went and ask for the experience of people that worked in the shows. How they don't have an actual running Human resources, it's just one guy friends with Viv (Neylan) who gave damn shitty responses to every question. READ IT PLEASE, Pass it around!

(It's a person outside of fandom bubble writting this stuff too)

Full-blown confirmation of the pay discord messages by Neylan

(also Viv has tried to make people not work in other indie stuff too)

This sounds so republican as fuck too:

Gaming company?

#vivziepop critique #vivziepop critical #helluva boss critique #helluva boss critical #helluva boss criticism #hazbin hotel critical #hazbin hotel criticism #hazbin hotel critique #spindlehorse criticism #spindlehorse critical #anti spindlehorse

[theoddest1]

Notice how Viv will bitch about a 15 year old fan being critical or a 18 or 19 year old critic who made a harmless meme, or be pissy about "My name is Caine, I am your bitch" but will stay DEAD. FUCKING. SILENT about someone in the fandom ending their own life thanks to the shitty people in her fanbase. So, in other words, people being "mean" to her is more worth her time than calling out those who pushed Shay into suicide.

Not surprising tbh. This is the same person who apparently thought karma was awesome when one of the people she had beef with (Dollcreep) was getting mass hate from her fans and was hospitalized for an attempt on their life just to get out of the massive attacks they were facing.

So yeah...what a kind ass person....

Then there's Tracy

Who actually addressed and tried to bring awareness to bullying in her community.

#vivziepop critical #vivziepop criticism #spindlehorse critical #spindlehorse criticism #anti spindlehorse #vivziepop critique #anti vivziepop #vivienne medrano #viv get a grip #vivziepop #cw sui #cw bullying #lackadaisy #tracy butler

[poisonheiress]

Someone needs to say it: The "Heaven is actually bad" plot line that Hazbin is based around is useless when you spend more then 2 minutes thinking about Vivzie's Hell and her characters.

Besides it being much too early for this idea, the revelation that Heaven or at least the beings running it aren't good people has little to no impact when the people who are being harmed by this are all horrible people. Stay with me here. None of these people are people who were unfairly brought into hell and we are never ever introduced to someone who was either. Why should we care that Heaven is "evil" and blocking redemption when all the sinners in hell we see are the worst of the worst who would have never gotten in even if it was fair.

For the "Heaven is bad" plot line to actually work, you need people who were just one sin away from Heaven, who would've gotten into Heaven if circumstance hadn't forced them down a path that stole it from them. You need characters who aren't comedic villains but land in the middle of morally grey. Those who deserved to be in Heaven but because Heaven refused to consider their circumstances, they were tossed to burn with people much worse than them. Those are the people who should be your main cast cause those are the people who would actually be impacted by Heaven being bad/ Heaven lying.

Angel dust, for all his trauma, was still part of the mafia and likely had killed people before (showing to almost take joy in it). Husk became an overlord and gambled souls, so he had to have had blood on his hands before hell. Alastor is a serial killer, and the list goes on and on. Sure, these characters are (somewhat) interesting, but they don't make for good characters to have when the key plot line is that Heaven is a scam. Even if that fact is true, none of them were ever going to get there in the first place and this is something we also se in every single background sinner shown in Hell too. They were never close to getting there, so why would they or we care that Heaven is bad when all sinners are shown to be horrific people who are at best in the dark grey area of morality.

If you look at it from the "angel's are unfairly killing sinners" route, it still doesn't work. If the angels are killing them, what makes it different then the sinner on sinner violence that hell is full off? Why is them dying by angels this bad thing when they are just as likely if not 10x times more likely to get knifed in the back by other sinners in hell the other 364 days, especially when everyone here apparently is just as horrible as the next person. You cannot condemn the angels for killing demons and then make a joke of out sinners killing each other and never show sinners who doesn't want to kill people. Life either matters or it doesn't and when the main cast doesn't even show a care for life (outside of Charlie's who's entire flaw is her naivety), why should the audience.

On top of that, Vivzie's whole overpopulation aspect and the Heaven plot line would connect better if she actually had people like those I mentioned above, people who stole to survive but got tossed out cause stealing is technically wrong, people who killed another to protect someone else but were still sent to hell because even though they saved that person's life that person wasn't supposed to be saved, people who passively engaged in sins but never really did anything harmful under them. This would add into how Hell is so overpopulated and highlight why its so important that Heaven is evil/ why Charlie's plan isn't just a naive pathetic fever dream.

In the end, Vivzie should have never made Heaven the central plot of this show nor tried to assign this blatant good vs evil to that conflict. Neither her characters nor her writing choices are able to respond to this conflict in a way that will end or even tell the story in a satisfactory manner.

#anti hazbin hotel #hazbin hotel critical #vivziepop critical #spindlehorse critical #spindlehorse criticism #also I am not just talking out my ass for this #I had/have this same problem in one of my original works #where I had to make the relationship between Heaven and God and cambion a lot more complex then just oh this side bad this side good #and thats what you have to do as a fucking writer is ask the hard question and be ready to scrap characters and ideas to answer them #When you deal with human characters nothing is black vs white and the minute you claim it is #you have failed

[devdirt]

Hazbin Hotel Spoilers!! My thoughts on the VAs, and where I go from here.

I'm only going to say a couple of things about the first episode. The voices are bad.

I think Charlie is the only consistently good one and Alastor does sound better with the voice filter on. I think Niffty is okay, I will always prefer the pilot VA. But...listen.

I don't want to be mean about Blake. I'm sure he's talented. But his delivery as Angel is really, really bad. I don't mean in a "bitch about the show haha" bad, I mean it is just painful to listen to. His delivery is not natural, the accent sounds so forced and the tone is grating. He sounds like he belongs in a cringe fandub, not an official production.

Vaggie sounds incredibly dead. I think Stephanie could really work in this role but it sounds like the voice direction is keeping her from emoting half the time. Her register is too low and too plain to give any kind of meaningful performance. She has done low register characters before and knocked it out of the park so that's why I believe this was a mistake on direction's part. She's talented, let her showcase it.

Husk, it doesn't fit. Keith David is talented as FUCK and his delivery is good! But this was a miscast. The original VA was great because he had that jaded old man sound to him, a disgruntled quality that accompanied his character.

Adam...god shut up. I don't know if it's the fact that his song is paced all weird and the dialogue doesn't flow, or that his dialogue is just GOD AWFUL but I can't listen to this man speak. He sounds like he's overacting on stage in every single line, there is no time to breathe between his sentences.

And my wife Katie Killjoy? It's just fucking Blitz. There is no humor in having her sound like this, and the performance has none of the flair as the original pilot VA. It sounds like when a cartoon gets an obvious celebrity who doesn't fit the show because they just wanted to get that person on for an episode.

So yeah. The songs were mid, the jokes weren't funny, and Angel saying "this body was meant to be exploited" was just...yeah.

I'm sorry to the entire pilot cast, I'm sorry you were all replaced when you ARE these characters. A character is their voice, and you all poured your hearts and souls into your performances to make Viv's creations come to life. I don't think she deserved any of you. This is a disappointment for animation at worst and a bad vanity project at best.

I will not be watching any more full episodes.

#hazbin hotel critical #hazbin critical #vivziepop critical #hazbin spoilers #hazbin hotel spoilers #hazbin hotel overture #spindlehorse critical #hazbin hotel critique #hazbin leaks #hazbin hotel leaks

[spooky-donut-ghost-house]

If you ever feel bad about your writing remember this:

You didn't write Hazbin Hotel

#hazbin hotel negativity #hazbin hotel negative #helluva boss negative #helluva boss negativity #spindlehorse negative #spindlehorse negativity #vivziepop negative #vivziepop negativity #hazbin hotel critical #hazbin hotel criticism #hazbin hotel critique #helluva boss critical #helluva boss criticism #helluva boss critique #spindlehorse critical #spindlehorse criticism #spindlehorse critique #vivziepop critical #vivziepop criticism #vivziepop critique #anti hazbin hotel #anti helluva boss #anti vivziepop #anti spindlehorse

[flower-boi16]

Can we talk about the fact that TOH, a kid's show that aired on the Disney channel, has an unironically a better gay/sapphic relationship with Lumity than either of these "adult shows"?

Lumity is an incredibly well-developed ship; Its gradually built up throughout season 1 and season 2A and they don't drag the shit out of it, they are just incredibly cute together. The ship isn't abusive and toxic...

...unlike Stolitz, which is a very toxic ship where the victim is portrayed as the abuser and the abuser is framed as just an UwU soft boy. Another thing about Lumity that makes it a good relationship is the fact that Amity is her own character; she isn't solely defined by Luz, her relationship with Luz is an important part of her character, sure, but she still has a lot of development in the series that makes her a well-developed, three-dimensional character.

Compare that to Chaggie, which while not nearly as bad as Stolitz, still has issues, that being how Vaggie's character entirely revolves around Charlie, she doesn't have any real development outside of that. There is the stuff about her being a fallen angel but we'll have to see what the show does with it to make a full judgment, but the reveal that she is a fallen angel feels too rushed to give her depth.

Vaggie doesn't feel like her own character, she feels like she's completely defined by her relationship with Charlie, and she doesn't have that much of a character outside of that. Amity meanwhile, is her own character beyond her relationship with Luz, even in Season 2 where people say that supposedly Amity became just "Luz's girlfriend", she still had that whole conflict with her parents.

Lumity is infinitely superior to both of these ships guys.

Then again TOH blows HH/HB out of the water in every single aspect so...

#hazbin hotel critical #helluva boss critical #vivziepop critical #helluva boss criticism #hazbin hotel criticism #spindlehorse critical #spindlehorse criticism #the owl house #toh #lumity #amity blight #luz noceda #anti stolitz #anti stolas #anti charlie x vaggie #anti chaggie #vivziepop criticism

[showtoonzfan]

A recent article came out about the mistreatment and pay of Spindlehorse employees, please spread this around.

#vivziepop critical #spindlehorse critical #helluva boss critical #helluva boss critique #hazbin hotel critical #helluva boss criticism #helluva critical #anti vivziepop #Hazbin hotel #helluva boss #vivienne medrano #Vivziepop #spindlehorse toons #Spindlehorse

[thowawayuntilfurthernotice]

No, I have no interest in watching the remainder of Helluva Boss season two.

I can tolerate a bad adult cartoon, trust me, I've sat through plenty of godawful shows. But Helluva Boss is one of those rare shows that genuinely keeps finding new ways to piss me off.

It'd be one thing if the show was flawed but had some positive aspects to balance out those flaws, but it just doesn't.

Yeah, the animation is pretty, but so what? That doesn't change the fact that the writing is awful beyond belief.

And look, I'm not one of those guys who's all like "Ugh, this sucks. I could do better" because I understand that getting any project off the ground isn't a simple thing to achieve. It's a miracle that half the projects that get green lit see the light of day.

So no, I'm not "jealous" of Viv, I just think this show is terrible.

The fact that the entire narrative now revolves around Stolas is baffling. I get that shows evolve overtime, but having everything revolve around Stolas and his relationship with Blitzo kind of makes me wonder why Viv even bothered with the assassins for hire pitch.

But then again, Viv is constantly giving up on her main story premises in favor of ship teasing and fan service.

Remember when Hazbin Hotel was supposed to be about a hotel that sinners would go to to get redeemed? Because Viv doesn't!

Furthermore, unlike Hazbin Hotel, I don't think Helluva Boss' narrative could be salvaged by other writers. As we're two seasons in and the Stolas narrative doesn't leave much room for of an endgame.

All the villains are so cartoonishly evil and one note that it's tough to see any of them as a threat. There is never a point where you truly believe that Stolas and Blitzo won't end up together by the end and the series doesn't seem to be building up towards anything.

Oh, and for any Viv fan who's going to respond with the "Don't like it don't watch" argument in the comments and reblogs, I just want to say that you should apply that argument to all the shows and movies that you dislike.

It's easy to use that argument when it comes to defending shows you like from criticism, but we all know you don't do the same for the stuff you hate.

#Vivziepop Critical #Hazbin Hotel Critical #Helluva Boss Critical #Spindlehorse Critical #Helluva Boss

[uniquepeanutcreatorfire]

I imagined a conversation like this with Valentino and Stolas where Val just goes off on him and it’s played straight would be so cathartic.

#vivziepop critical #vivziepop criticism #spindlehorse critical #helluva boss critical #helluva boss criticism #helluva boss critique #spindlehorse criticism #hazbin hotel critical #hazbin hotel criticism #hazbin hotel critique #Youtube

[bump-inthe-night]

Vivziepop’s art style isn’t awful; instead, it’s her character designs that are the issue. She recycles the same colors, characteristics, outfits, and accessories, causing them to overlap and look alike despite how different they’re supposed to be from each other.

A major issue in Hazbin Hotel is that you can’t tell what a character is or when they died since the details in their designs fail to convey this. Angel is a 1940s spider mobster drag queen, Cherri is an 1980s punk, and Niffty is a 1950s alien-like insect demon, but you can't tell from their designs at all.

Sir Pentious died in 1888, Alastor in 1933, and Vox in the 1950s, but they’re all dressed in the same striped, shoulder-padded suits despite dying decades apart.

Charlie and Lucifer look like blonde humans instead of demons, and Vaggie, who's a moth demon bodyguard and hotel protector, looks like a gray human. 

Another issue with Vivziepop's character designs is how she'll sometimes overdesign her characters by giving them numerous details that do nothing but clutter their designs and make them an eyesore.

Vivziepop is the issue with her art style because she stays in her comfort zone and either does too little or too much with her character designs, making them underwhelming or a visual mess.

#anti vivziepop #vivziepop critical #hazbin hotel critical #helluva boss critical #spindlehorse critical

[tocomplainfriend]

HAZBIN AND SA (+HB)

TW: SA and RAPE

THIS ITSELF DOESN'T TALK ABOUT THE SCENE! But the surrounding context.

So I really hate everything about how this has being treated. I am a SA victim and wanna talk about some stuff. If you didn't know, in episode 4 (I think) there is an exploration of Angel Dust SA, before going to do that lets see some stuff first:

She made a "cumming" joke about the song Poison (that accompanies the SA scenes)

This person over here worked on HH/HB (draws r-pe/non-con)

BLURRED AND CUTTED IMAGES: (Some are more or less explicit)

You know, that whole thing of shipping, and drawing porn of the canonical sexual abuser with the victim?

They also left this comment, under a comic where Val threatens brutal r-pe on Angel.

This person also worked in/directed the scenes of Angel dust Sexual abuse in the episode. The person that ships a r-pe ship and does all this shit is the one to work in this scene?????

ALSO????

Like??????? What happen here?

Also...

(The pinkie pfp person is 15 here too)

Why does Angel sexually harrases Husk non-stop (which is acknowledged by Vaggie)? Why is Moxxie SA by the succubus played for laughs? Same with Chaz or Blitz harassing him sexually or touching him without consent? Why did Stolas do so many unwanted advances towards Blitz, and that's literally the endgame couple of the show? (All of this are jokes, or by the Husk x Angel shit "ship moments"

WHY THIS TOO?

And yes you are "correct", something like Hypersexuality Trauma-should not being shamed. You are not a bad person, for dealing with this. BUT HEY, that doesn't mean you get to sexually harass people like Angel does to Husk or anyone.

Also, the problem is not having an SA victim's story. The problem is how it is treated and all the context that surrounds it. All of this above is that context! Why is so much SA jokes in Helluva? Why is that funny? You want to tell a story of SA, and anyone calling out the problems with it is deleting victims feelings and stories... YOU AND YOUR STUPID FUCKING JOKES DO THAT ALREADY. WHEN SA IS A JOKE FOR YOU, YOU ARE DIMINISHING SA AND R-PE.

There are also a lot of random fans saying that "Viv is an SA victim too"- #1 Where the fuck did she say that, cause you randomly saying that she said it doesn't mean shit. #2 DOESN'T DELETE THE WAY SA HAS BEING TREATED! THIS IS NOT EVEN CLOSE TO MAKING A JOKE AS AN SA VICTIM ABOUT YOURSELF- SHE/AND OTHER IN THE TEAM ARE WRITING CHARACTERS GETTING SEXUALLY ASSAULTED AS THE JOKE. -OR NOT UNDERSTAND LEGIT POWER DYNAMICS AND THE GROSS THING THAT STOLAS DOES TO BLITZ. OR THE LITERAL "SHIP COMPILATION" THAT IS PURELY ANGEL SEXUALLY HARASSING HUSK.

"Is important to represent SA survivors stories- specially men who-" BROTHER ALL YOUR OTHER MALE CHARACTERS SEXUALLY HARRASS/ASSAULT OTHERS AS A JOKEEEE. "They are in hell" BITCH A HUMAN, A REAL PERSON WORKING ON THE SHOW WROTE hahaha Moxxie gets violated by the succubus so funny lol. IT'S NOT "LOONA IS A BAD PERSON FROM HELL THAT'S WHY SHE MADE FAT JOKES AT MOXXIE" NO IT'S WRITTEN AS IF THE SA WAS FUNNY IN ITSELF!

This is also not a scenario where there was a realization of the problems in HB with all those jokes and the harassment, so it was trying to be fixed with a serious story in hazbin. NO, THAT'S NOT IT!!!!

If there was an apology of how the sexual assault was treated in previous works! "We'll make up for it!" (the fact of that was a thing in the first place, it's still bad). That would be a little different. BUT NO, IT'S NOT! IT'S HYPOCRITICAL AND GARBAGE BULLSHIT.

I think purely by the context already given here that I think the representation it's bad. I don't feel like it comes from a good place, due to the hypocritical shit, the comments, and the artist who directed it.

We could go really back and forth with the direct scenes of the episode. BUT THIS IS ABOUT THE CONTEXT SURROUND IT rather than the scenes themselves. (Which is partly connected to the fact that it's incomplete)

Here is the scene "Tuca and Bertie". Is Bertie telling her friend of her assault. It's amazingly respectful and well written. It's not graphic, and tells the story really well.

#vivziepop critique #vivziepop critical #helluva boss critique #helluva boss criticism #helluva boss critical #hazbin hotel critical #hazbin hotel criticism #hazbin hotel critique #spindlehorse critical #tw rape #tw sa #tw abuse

[teeth-cable]

OG Thread

Thread is not mine, I’m reposting this here for critical and educational purposes as it’s very important to amplify minorities’ critiques and voices.

Another thing I want to share is Viv blocked OP and this is his take on her Mimzy tweet.

Also even though OP didn't point it out in their thread, Rosie is an antisemitic stereotype too. She falls under the Jewish mother and blood libels stereotypes explained by another Jewish user. (Link to their thread)

Reading over Rosie's leaked character sheet and watching the show, you can see how she is those stereotypes. (TBH I don't think it can get anymore obvious Viv, at least knew she was coding Rosie as Jewish with the line,"Rosie has the strong presense of a confident energy of a Jewish mother.")

#꧁rambles꧂ #hazbin critical #hazbin hotel criticism #hazbin hotel critical #vivziepop critical #vivziepop criticism #spindlehorse criticism #spindlehorse critical #hazbin hotel #mimzy #rosie