so, Batman #147… rambling about the difference in how Zdarsky portrays the two current Robins
this is a fantastic run for Tim, and very much written like a return to form of what plenty consider the best dynamic duo, but even more so "the best Robin". once Damian's introduced in this run, Zdarsky really makes sure you still know that lol
1. "We don't need anyone else" VS "I need my family"
#147 clearly exemplifies the contrast, so i'll go through it first. Damian, having fallen for Zurr's lie and accepted him as the real Bruce, goes so far as to say in the very first page "We don't need anyone else." it's cold colors, machinery, and hollow declarations of "father and son" for these two.
towards the ending, Tim has deduced where the real Bruce is hiding and brings him food expecting Bruce's knack for self-neglect. it's all warmth, sunshine, and mutual understanding - also a cute back and forth of "Batman and Robin" between them. on top of this, where Damian isolates Batman & Robin from family, Tim is the one to remind Bruce about "helping each other." Bruce heartily agrees with "I need my family" for a weighty end.
along with this parallel, from #138 Tim makes it clear that even in opposition, he's only ever trying to help Bruce. Damian was still on the wrong side with Zurr-induced-Bruce here at the time too 😭
2. Tim's independence as both a hero and partner
Tim is written as the ideal Robin to Bruce's Batman, and has made Robin its own independent hero on equal footing rather than a sidekick - it's made in statements by both Tim and Bruce, and through the entire narrative. he takes initiative and tries to foresee what would ultimately help Bruce. beyond being great partners, there's many bits showing their emotional connection ("i'm scared of being lost, but i'm more scared of losing you, Bruce" hit me like a bag of bricks). tbh this almost could be a Batman and Robin run lol
added the first panel from #126 of Tim declaring he's his own hero outside of Bruce, proven plenty especially in his backups in #131-134!! the other panels are a few highlights from #128, #130, and #135 of the partnership between Tim and Bruce
granted it's Zurr, but Damian is mostly seen following orders and given pensive looking panels when there's something concerning. While Tim continued to represent Batman's ideals during his own solo quest to find Bruce, Damian doesn't question or take action against "Bruce's" sudden shift in ethics
Batman #134 Backup - Tim showing support toward Toyman VS Batman #146 - Zurr and Damian confront Harley as she pleads about her change of heart
another kiinda parallel in #147 is Bruce acknowledging Tim's hard work to become Robin compared to Damian who's out here going Batman and Robin/Father and Son. i don't think it's an intended parallel but just the state of continuing to show Tim in a better light - Tim put in the effort "to become the second-best Robin" while Damian is Robin because..."son." supposedly less effort on his part too, because LOA.
second pic is from Batman/Catwoman The Gotham War: Scorched Earth, felt fitting to add since Tim mentions needing to "know everything" in both. and the humble brag. which ofc Tim believes Dick is the best!! but also. jic we didn't know Tim is the best current Robin sdfgh
3. Damian's blind loyalty as "Bruce's son"
there's a weight to the Robin title when regarding Tim, whereas Damian's "Robin" role is excess and counterintuitive. he's delegated to desperate sidekick to Bruce, as well as becoming an obstacle to the family. being Robin only seems significant to Damian in how it ties himself to his father, and his single Robin quality is a loyalty that's been written to an extreme fault. the only positive angle i could see this in is Zdarsky aiming to put Damian in a sympathetic light in how far Damian was willing to fall to stay by his father's side, hence, fooled by that nightmare story/confession. the problem with this is that we have not seen a single emotional connection between the two in this run, so why should we care about that relationship.
also, Damian constantly bringing up his position as Bruce's son just makes him look entitled? since Bruce rightfully expressed his claim of having the others as his sons too (with the unfortunate exclusion of his daughter)! so it's like a "lol you're not that special" vibe when looking at it from the outside?? ykw concerning #138, Damian saying "You're the one trying to destroy my father" also could have been in contrast to Tim saying "We'll help our dad" at the end.
Zdarsky seems to believe the only meaningful part of Damian being Robin is he's the son of Bruce, and not a single nod to any noble aspect Damian's achieved beyond that. we're constantly reminded of Tim's greatest hits as Robin, from taking on the mantle to pull Bruce out of darkness (#135, #138), mastermind a whole takedown (Gotham War: Scorched Earth), and always being on the same wavelength with Bruce etc. the entire run sings Tim's praise, and it's deserved!! my problem is how it's in stark contrast to Damian's portrayal of being the other Robin who's only special because he believes he's the greatest son and wants to be at Bruce's side.
so all this to say, if your fav is Tim YOU'RE EATING WELL!! personally as a chronic enjoyer of things, this has been an entertaining run! as a chronic enjoyer of Damian, it's definitely not for many of his fans at this point in time.
i did like this part!! his grin!!
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Sebastian Vael would've been such a better character for the Dragon Age fandom to enjoy if in act 3 instead of the shitty "here, have a Leliana cameo and another proof there's Blood Magic Everywhere in Kirkwall, go fetch!" quest, we had a different one.
Let's say... Hawke has an option of investigating a weird deal between a chantry sister and a Starkhaven diplomat, and during it you uncover that the chantry has been embezzling from Starkhaven's treasury, as well as putting "former chantry members" (read: malleable or outright Chantry puppets) in the ruling circle which is currently holding Starkhaven afloat in absence of Sebastian as their Prince.
If Sebastian is not in the party as you uncover this, you have an option to either tell him about it, or investigate the questline further. If he is, however, in the party as you find the first notice of something being wrong between Chantry and Starkhaven relations, Sebastian will exclaim that this is a mistake, someone posing outside (or within) a Chantry to implicate either Starkhaven royalty, or Grand Cleric Elthina, and reference Sister Petrice. The moment you involve him in the questline, however, he'll be locked in for the investigation missions, and start getting special points in the code, one for each encounter (including the very first one starting the questline), for the final confrontation of the questline. The same happens if you start involving Sebastian at any other point of the questline, but with less and less points available.
As you progress, there would be three more quests to go through, one of which even takes you to either the outskirts of Starkhaven, or to the busy streets of it, allowing 1) to show another city state of Free Marches, 2) where Sebastian comes from, 3) actually be worth your money for the DLC, if ideal DA2 still had him as a DLC companion. Which I still hate with burning passion a decision, same with Javik being DLC in ME3.
The questline has chantry sisters and nobles implicated, Flora Harriman reaching out to Hawke about weird decisions made in Starkhaven politics, resembling what her mother did, and at a second quest there's even a possibility of you uncovering a chantry brother in a contract with a Desire demon. It seems like it all leads up to corruption in the political sphere and stragglers in the Chantry circles, right?
Except. On the final quest. It is revealed that Elthina, in her own handwriting, no forgery as confirmed by any rogue in the party, has forced Grand Cleric of Starkhaven to resign, installed her own puppet (one of the chantry sisters you might see in Act 1) as a new Grand Cleric, all for a bid of "uniting the Free Marches under the Chantry banner". It also implies that Sister Petrice was telling the truth, and that Elthina was, in fact, more involved with the unrest against Qunari than one would believe in the base game (I believe she was involved, but it's not majorly pertaining to this post in particular). There's a letter that implies Lady Harimann was allowed to do what she did, because Elthina believed she'd be able to manipulate Sebastian in favour of the Chantry. It also unveils how many people of Starkhaven were hurt by this. Turns out, a lot.
Then, you can go about this questline ending several ways.
This is where the points counting in the background come into play.
If you did not bring Sebastian alongside you on any of the missions, or if there aren't enough points for you to sway him... Sebastian will claim the evidence as plot against his support of the Chantry and Elthina specifically, and burn the letters in particular, calling them a "bad replica of what sister Petrice tried to do". Elthina, on prodding, feigns innocence, or if you have not talked to Sebastian yet, calls him in to discuss "this silly accusation", which gives +15 rivalry if you're not in a locked relationship with him. He still burns the letters, and accuses you of believing the conspirators, or even being one of them. There are some undertones in Elthina's dialogue to imply she's ready to blackmail you back if you press the matter, and Hawke has no choice but to back off.
If you bring Sebastian along and your relationship with him at this point is so-so, neither a full friendship or a rivalry, you'd need at least 3 points with favourable dialogue, this makes Sebastian question the Chantry, even Elthina. You'd need all 4 points (bringing him from the get go in your party when they rock up to the start of the questline) without going further into discussion for him to buckle. With friendship, you'd need to bring him on at least 2 missions, or 3 with favourable dialogue. With rivalry, however, you need for him to be brought only on one mission with favourable dialogue, the final one, after which he'll even say that "You (Hawke) were right about me needing to step up and rule Starkhaven". On two missions if you want to bicker with him throughout the quests instead.
If you would manage to sway Sebastian by the end, you'd have one final choice: support him in standing up and demanding answers from Elthina, or asking him to forgive her involvement.
Supporting him on Friendship is the simplest, but supporting him on Rivalry ends up in Sebastian switching to Friendship, like with Merrill reversing her Friendship in Mirror Image if you don't give her the Arulin'Holm. This ends up in a calmly voiced, but very angry Sebastian Vael, pure venom in his words, listing how Elthina has abused his trust and his people by using faith in the Chantry, and manipulating a Prince of a sovereign nation for her own means. If you supported him on Rivalry, he'll have additional lines on how you've challenged him to see problems with Chantry and Templar order, as well as to come back to Starkhaven, and outright thank you right in front of Elthina, whose eyes will throw daggers in your direction. At the end of the speech, Sebastian will actually start removing pieces of his armour, them clattering to the floor at Elthina's feet, and walk out alongside you out of the Kirkwall chantry.
However, if you ask him to forgive Elthina, he'll have the biggest rivalry (+30) jump in the game if you aren't in a Friendship, and will briefly lash out at you, saying that complacency with his devotion to the Chantry is what got him and his people into this mess. On Rivalry, it's worse. Instead of a calm but angry and vicious reprimand of Elthina's actions, Sebastian will SCREAM at her, throw evidence in her face, and then scream at you on Rivalry for good measure, about how you can't simply forgive someone who would seek ruin his city, and is actively ruining Kirkwall. How he was blind to Elthina's actions, but sees now that blood magic isn't the rot at the city's heart that is dividing the Circle and Templar order, it's Chantry politicians like Elthina. And instead of armour pieces clattering to the ground, they're thrown at the feet of the Andraste statue, while Sebastian outright declares that if Elthina doesn't cease machinations in Starkhaven, he'll rage war against her, specifically, and everyone who would support her. Then, he storms out, alone.
You can insert either a "there's nothing to talk about" with Elthina afterwards in both endings of this form, or promises of Hawke "never holding a position in this city aside from carrying the Amell name".
After that, you can find Sebastian, clad in a new armour (simple, reminiscent of what Alistair wears in his introduction scene in DAO, only with the Starkhaven symbol emblazoned on an archer chest piece), with a box in his arms, on the steps out of Hightown into Lowtown. He jokes about how his whole life in Kirkwall can, at the same time, be put into a small box like this one, and be something world encompassing. After a dialogue, where he tells you he is going to live in a small hovel in Lowtown, since he doesn't want to even see the chantry building, or talk with nobles who'd gladly eat him and people of Starkhaven alive, until the moment Kirkwall unrest is over, since he wants stability for you and your city as well. Also, he'd rather spend money on his people and those in need, not himself.
If romanced, or with certain persuasion options, you can invite him to live with you. You can still try to invite him with a couple of options, but he'll deny them for various reasons. After that, he'd live near the market; or, if you managed to convince him, in Hawke's mansion.
If in a romance, there's a hot makeout scene in the library which fades to black implying a proper sex scene. If not, he'll have amusing additional scenes with other companions, especially other love interests, with a bit of hostility from Isabela and Anders, and a lot of genuine fun from Fenris and Merrill.
When you talk with him alone (at either Lowtown hovel or at home in the Library), Sebastian discusses, on Friendship, how he is still Andrastian, even if Chantry failed him and his, or on Rivalry how he feels that blind devotion blinded him to Chantry mistakes.
Banter between party members also changes, with one dialogue from Merrill implying that Sebastian is now helping refugees and the poor, Fenris talking about his efforts in making an organisation for former templars/chantry members expelled for one reason or another, Anders being surprised at a late night visit where Sebastian covered in blood (not his) brought him herbs and potion flasks as a peace offering, et cetera. There's still tension over Sebastian belief in the Chant and Andraste, but it's not anymore about him having to perform for the Chantry and his public image.
If you don't complete the quest with this ending, Sebastian Vael still demands Anders to be executed, or he'll wage war. But if you do... he confesses that Anders has asked him to warn as many people in Lowtown and Darktown not to come to the Hightown and chantry, but assumed this would be because of Meredith and Orsino outright fighting in front of Elthina, not this... murder.
He will, however, draw his bow and point an arrow at Anders, saying that this was not the answer to help his cause, and Anders needs to pay now. Hawke can allow him to do that, or step in.
In a so-so relationship, if you choose anything else but "I will execute him myself" or relent to Sebastian's demand and let him shoot Anders? Vael will spit at your feet and leave your party and the conflict, resulting in a very similar ending to his character as in the original DA2, just less anti-mage and pro-Chantry.
However, in a Friendship or Rivalry, it's very easy to convince him to still stay at your side and see it through. With his unknowing help, many innocents of Kirkwall were saved, and now he has to stick around to help as well, and to either see Anders pay for his crimes with work and healing, not redemption through martyr-like murder, or to understand that this, inadvertently, would be every city across Southern Thedas, including Starkhaven, if Chantry dogma supported by Templars will continue murder, physical and emotional, of mages. He'll have additional dialogue depending on whether you're a mage Hawke, or if Bethany died/is in Circle.
In Romance, Sebastian will lower his bow immediately as Hawke steps between. You'll have to mess up really badly in dialogue for him to storm out.
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oka okay so. im going as orpheus for halloween so i thought yk why not lets listen through the cast recording tonight and. i reached his kiss, the riot and yk i've always been a big fan of it. underrated imo but i love the delivery of it, whenever i hear it recorded or live the hades always does great. buT i esp love the cast recording bc of this one specific moment at the end where hades takes this one, ragged breath in between the last lines (and doubt comes / doubt comes in) like YES an incredibly vulnerable moment from this literal brick wall of a character i love to see it you love to see it.
BUT. ON THIS LISTEN THROUGH. i can't believe it took me this fucking long to realize BUT I REALIZED
that sigh isn't from the burden of making such a hard decision or pain from having to give into the pleas of his wife or whatever. he's hesitant and pained and dare i say nervous BECAUSE HE FUCKING RELATES TO ORPHEUS. he sees himself in orpheus, he sees his younger self, what he used to be, in orpheus, and that's why he's scared. because he knows what young love is like. he knows very well what it feels like. but he also knows what young love eventually turns into.
so much of the song is not just about orpheus, but about hades's life as well anD I CAN'T BELIEVE I JUST NOTICED SO I AM GOING SO INSANE OVER THE LYRICS NOW
but let there be some term to be agreed upon = love must have its barriers, its roadblocks. something must get in the way of true love. demeter HATED persephone's and hades's relationship. they were forced to live under the condition of only being able to see each other for half of the year
she's out of sight, he's out of his mind = once again being forced to see each other for only half of the year. when persephone is out of sight, hades goes mad, wondering if she'll return the following year, turning hadestown into a maze of factories just to give himself something to do, something to prove to persephone that he is worth keeping around
nothing makes a man so bold as a woman's smile = (in common versions of the myth) hades kidnaps persephone bc of how beatiful she is so. bit of a bold move i'd say
but all alone his blood runs thin = when blood runs thin you get cold easily, so you always look for warmth and try to stay as warm as possible. *gestures wildly at above statement of hades going mad and churning out factories, factories and plants that make hadestown 'way too hot', something abt being so freezing cold that no matter how much you turn up the heat, no matter how much you sweat and grind and work and work, there is chill in your bones*
AND DOUBT COMES. DOUBT COMES IN. = how would hades know that? is he talking about the natural flaws of man, of how humans always work? maybe, but if anything he's FUCKING PROJECTING. HE KNOWS FROM EXPERIENCE.
hades knows what it's like to be in orpheus's position. he knows exactly what it's fucking like to be so in love but forced to be separate. he knows the doubt that comes in on a stupidly personal level. hell, they directly consulted with him on what to do on this issue. he knows that no matter how much love you have for a person, not being able to see them, hear them, feel them, can fuck you up. that is how the world is. but maybe not always. maybe, maybe it will turn out this time. because something about orpheus. about seeing the reflection of hades's past, of the man hades once was. something about orpheus gave hades the ability to see how the world could be. in spite of the way that it is.
GOOD NIGHT BROTHERS. GOOD FUCKING NIGHT.
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