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zyzix · 1 year
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There's this aspect of Joshua Kiryu's character arc that I'm sort of flabbergasted to realize might be basically un-analyzed these past 15 or so years. I still kind of expect someone will pop up and point to something they've already written, but i'll talk about it anyway. This might also create some analysis ideas for NEO?? Ideally, anyway.
Essentially, I think it's really likely that Joshua misunderstood way more about his situation with Hanekoma, Minamimoto, and Neku than people tend to think. Not only that, but the idea that he had these misunderstandings kind of colors his relationship with Hanekoma. It also adds to him and Neku being foils. Where do I even begin.
I guess just with this scene that always made me go "hm, that's weird." Joshua: Think he's got a thing for you, Neku? Neku: What!? How the hell do you figure that? Joshua: Oh, please! The way he follows you around? Neku: That's just because I'm a Player. Joshua: I don't see him chasing after the other Players. Neku: (He's right… So why me?) Joshua: …Or is it my fault? Neku: (What? That's right… He might be tied in with the Reapers.)
So, what's so weird about this? Am I actually proposing that Joshua really thought Minamimoto was following Neku when he asked this? YES. I AM. That might sound nonsensical, and that's because it kind of is! But there's a reason for that.
When you know what happened in the Udagawa back alley a week and some change prior to that scene, it's reasonable to ask "why would Joshua think a Reaper was after some random RG guy?" Minamimoto came at him with a gun! But then why did Joshua even ask Neku if Minamimoto was following him? If he's trying to trick Neku into thinking this, he wouldn't immediately propose the truth afterwards. Maybe he's trying to make Neku distrust him as he does earlier (Neku scanning him, general sketch behavior perhaps) but not only is that redundant, it still doesn't answer why he asked about Neku in the first place.
So what happens if we take Joshua at face value here? Are we to assume Joshua thought he was the target at Udagawa, but Neku is the target now? I have no idea what the thought process would be behind that. Are we to assume that Joshua thought Neku was the target the whole time?? That still seems illogical, but maybe instead of asking why Neku would be the target, we should shift our focus and ask "why would Joshua think he isn't the target?"
I find that a lot easier to answer because we have Hanekoma. And Joshua thought he did too, basically.
We know from Secret Report 9 that the only person who should know Joshua's RG identity here is Mr. H.
SR 9: Minamimoto knows the Composer's RG identity (secret even to the Conductor), and has chased him to the Realground. The Fallen Angel may also have supplied him with this information.
Even in this report, it's proposed (by Hanekoma's misdirection) that someone else, some other Angel perhaps, could know Joshua's identity. We know that there isn't another Angel who told Minamimoto this information though. It was just Hanekoma. The only person in the story for Joshua to suspect is Mr. H.
Yet he doesn't. Or, I don't believe he does anyway. Let's take a look at our options.
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Why does Joshua not seem to be wondering who sold him out? We have two branching options to start with: "He already knows who did it" and "he doesn't realize he's been sold out."
Lots of people assume Joshua already knows Hanekoma revealed his identity to Minamimoto. Because like… how else would he have known? Literally what else is Joshua supposed to think after being shot at? I mean, I've been explaining what else Joshua could have thought, but the point is it's a fair assumption. The only issue is that Joshua doesn't behave like he knows Mr. H betrayed him until Week 2 Day 5.
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That is a long delay between then and when Joshua should have first known this information (before the story even starts.) I don't know when definitively Joshua put it together, but W2D5 is the first time we can say we KNOW he knows. And it really might have been that moment, because what happens right afterwards?
Well, Neku and him get attacked by Beat and Joshua learns about Kitaniji's "special op." But what happens right after THAT?
Joshua tells Neku that Hanekoma is CAT. An eye for an eye, I guess.
Part of the idea that Joshua did know Mr. H betrayed him from the start is that maybe Joshua was just putting up with that fact. That maybe Hanekoma was too useful, and couldn't do more harm anyway. Or that Joshua really didn't have any other options. I can understand why people think that, but I don't think we can bet on any of those. There's no reason for Joshua to think Hanekoma couldn't do way more harm than just tattling on him, especially as the week goes on and Taboo Noise crop up. Also, while it's impossible to prove one way or the other, there's no reason to think Joshua couldn't have built his game plan sans Hanekoma from the start if he thought he'd betrayed him. All of this assuming that Joshua gives a shit about what Mr. H did, admittedly.
On the other hand, if we posit that Joshua found out later about Mr. H, and that he'd give a shit about that, there should be some kind of change in his behavior towards him. This seems a little hard to to prove because that scene on W2D5 is the last time we see them interact (or even see Mr. H at all) until the ending of the game. That said, it's probably very telling that in TWEWY Mr. H is Joshua's sole confidant, and in NEO Mr. H has no idea what's going on with Joshua at all. I find that very interesting, but we're gonna put a pin in that for later.
Aaaaaaaaaall of that's to say that I don't think it's very likely that Joshua knew Hanekoma told Minamimoto his identity from the start. He shares information with Mr. H too easily for me to think that's the case. What's our next option?
It's possible that Joshua believed he already knew who told Minamimoto, but he was mistaken. However, I said before that there isn't any other suspect in the story and I don't think we can give Joshua another suspect to focus on without just making stuff up. Haz and Coco come to mind as people who might be able to share Joshua's identity, but we can't escape the fact that neither of them even existed at the time Joshua's main character arc was written. We would probably also have to invent some connection they'd have to this particular Game despite them being absent. I think this option is less likely than Joshua knowing about Mr. H the whole time, so I'm striking it off.
What we have left is the "Joshua didn't know he'd been sold out" option. Aside from what I've been arguing, the only other option is "Joshua thought Minamimoto found out on his own somehow." There's no solid reason for Joshua to think this, but it's possible he did anyway. The only reason I think this is less likely than the possibility that he didn't realize Minamimoto was after him is because of how Joshua talked to Neku back there. We have evidence that Joshua might have thought Minamimoto was after someone else; we don't have evidence that Joshua might have thought Minamimoto was able to discover his identity on his own. That said, after the conversation Josh had with Neku W2D2 it's possible his assumption shifted from one to the other as he was trying to figure things out.
So yeah, I believe it's most likely that Joshua didn't realize he'd been sold out at all because that would require him to think Hanekoma would do that to him. Because of that, he believed for more than a week that Neku was Minamimoto's target when they were all in the RG.
You might think that this idea would run into a lot of inconsistencies but I've found it to be shockingly coherent. (Honestly the whole background plot of this game is shockingly coherent for how overt it's themes are. I guess that's beside the point.) Like, let's look at the scene in Udagawa.
It starts with Neku looking up at the tag mural. Then Joshua runs up with a gun from Neku's left. It appears as if Joshua may have been looking behind him. Then Joshua fires in Neku's direction. Neku falls to the ground, but he is unhurt. Then Minamimoto is revealed to be behind Neku with a gun. He is clutching his shoulder. Minamimoto raises his gun, and Neku shields himself. Then several shots are fired towards Joshua. Joshua stops the bullets with his powers, and silently threatens to shoot Minamimoto again. Minamimoto runs off, and Joshua shoots Neku while he is looking after him.
If Joshua already believes that his identity is safe, none of that would clearly contradict that idea to him! Why did Josh think Minamimoto shot at him? Because Joshua already shot Minamimoto. Why was Joshua running if he didn't think Minamimoto was chasing him? To get to his target before the Reaper.
Conversely, why would Joshua be running from Minamimoto if bullets aren't going to hit him?
To us it's obvious that Minamimoto was chasing Joshua and tried to cut him off at the other end of the alley. But to Joshua at the time, he thought Minamimoto was going for the guy in between them.
This does raise some other questions, but there's enough of a case here that I think it's worth speculating off of. Did Joshua even have a theory as to why Minamimoto would be after someone in the RG? Maybe he thought Kitaniji sent one of his Reapers after his potential proxy. Why would it matter to Joshua if Minamimoto killed Neku instead of him if he needs the guy dead? Maybe it has something to do with the fact that Joshua only leaves that extra Player Pin-- his trump card-- on Neku after Minamimoto leaves.
Kind of wild so far, right? Well we're not done because I think this idea that Joshua may have had created ANOTHER oversight for him.
Week 2 Day 7: Minamimoto: I was hoping for a little reenactment. Same spot, same setup as last time… Neku: (Last time? Nrrgh! Not now!) Joshua: You OK, Neku? Neku: Waaaugh! [incomplete Neku death cutscene] Neku: It… it was you? Joshua: Neku… Neku: You killed me… You stole my life!
What's with Joshua's reactions here? Did he not realize that Neku was getting headaches around Minamimoto?
(yes)
It's understandable if you think Joshua is faking it here, but if you're with me about this so far you also have to admit that Joshua's surprise can be pretty genuine. I'll be honest, I thought this way before I thought anything else I've put in this essay so far just because Joshua and the situation seemed sincere to me. Why wouldn't Joshua notice this, though?
See, there are four times that Neku, Joshua and Minamimoto are all in the same scene. Neku gets a headache from all of them, and this is what they look like:
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Maybe this is just me, but the sprite direction in all of them but the last one makes it seem like Joshua stays between Neku and Minamimoto, and that he does not take his eyes off of Minamimoto the whole time he's around. And compare day 1 to day 7. Even though Neku's sprite is the one in the middle, he retreats backwards when he gets the headache, giving the suggestion that he's actually sort of behind Joshua. That doesn't happen on day 7 though, meaning Neku is definitely far enough in front that Joshua can see him-- and that's when Joshua finally reacts.
How could Joshua misunderstanding Minamimoto's target contribute to this? Regardless of the misunderstanding here, it's clear to me that Joshua views Minamimoto as enough of a threat that he doesn't even glance at Neku while he's having a memory migraine. But the fact that Joshua does notice on W2D7 seems a little less random if that misunderstanding had cleared up for him and caused him to be less zeroed in on Minamimoto. Keep in mind that these four events split evenly into "before W2D5" and "after W2D5." That means that the first two, Joshua would have thought Neku was the target, and the last two are when Joshua knows he was the target all along.
It makes some sense that Joshua might be so focused on Minamimoto that he doesn't notice what's going on with Neku if he thought Neku was being targeted, but what's going on W2D6? Joshua should know by then it's not Neku that Minamimoto was after. Hell, Minamimoto saved both of them earlier that day so why is he so focused on him then but not the next day? I suspect it's because this was Joshua's first time talking to Minamimoto while knowing he tried to kill him, and he was very absorbed in it.
So on days 1 and 2, Joshua was totally focused on Minamimoto because he viewed him as a threat to his proxy. Day 6 Joshua is focused on Minamimoto but it's not about him being an immediate threat, and on day 7 Minamimoto is at his most dangerous, but Joshua thought he could relax more because he was the target and not Neku.
There is one more thing that might keep this from the list of "Shit Joshua Did Not Know About," and it's the fact that Neku… talks? He talks while he's in migraine pain. Joshua may not spare a glance Neku's way but he can hear. Would that not tip him off earlier than W2D7 if he wasn't just ignoring Neku? Funny that-- the dialogue is actually sort of clever here.
Neku talks a decent amount when he's getting that memory migraine around Minamimoto, but the most suspect lines Neku has aren't spoken by him out loud.
Week 2 Day 2: Minamimoto: You fractals have no future! QED. Class is dismissed! [Minamimoto leaves] Neku: (Finally… The pounding's stopped. What language is that guy speaking?)
Week 2 Day 6: Neku: !? Zetta… Neku: (Nrrgh! My head… again…) […] Neku: (The pain's fading… Are he and I connected or something?)
Earlier on (as in the two days Joshua is most focused on Minamimoto as a threat) Neku does also speak out loud about his brain suffering. If Joshua isn't looking at him as well though, they're all things he could interpret as Neku simply complaining about the Weird Math Guy Who Says Confusing Things Through A Megaphone. Neku doesn't like people being loud or people speaking nonsense after all, and uh… Joshua also didn't have the highest opinion of Neku's sociability. Assumptions are a hell of a thing.
So Joshua went into his Game with Neku completely unaware that Hanekoma betrayed him and that Minamimoto was trying to kill him specifically. Then he carried on for nearly the majority of this game without knowing that Minamimoto-- or perhpas the combination of him and Minamimoto-- was giving his proxy debilitating headaches. What does that mean for his character?
Little, but interesting things, I think. I find it pretty compelling that Joshua missed something big about Neku because he was so self-involved even while trying to protect him. It's a neat thing to point at and go "yup, Neku's not the only one who looks stupid for writing people off." I think it also lends well to the idea that they were both getting to know each other in week 2.
Also-- we're coming back to that pin from earlier-- I think it helps flesh out a difference between Neku and Joshua's situations at the end of the game.
Neku: I'm glad I met you guys. You made me… pick up on things, I probably would've just gone on ignoring. Trust your partner… and I do. I can't forgive you, but I trust you.
If you've collected all the secret reports, after Neku's ending monologue and the credits, there's the secret ending. And I feel like the idea of "trust vs. forgiveness" is a palpable element when the ending is viewed as a whole like this. TWEWY doesn't touch upon the idea of forgiveness nearly as much as it does the idea of trust, but I can't help but see a distinction between the two in Joshua just as much as Neku. Only where Neku trusts Joshua but doesn't forgive him yet, Joshua forgives Hanekoma but doesn't trust him yet.
Think about it, doesn't "forgives but does not trust" perfectly describe all of Joshua's future behavior towards Hanekoma? He'll hang around Mr. H in the Room of Reckoning and 104, or talk with him casually about the destruction of a neighboring city. But he wont talk to him if he's upset, or tell him any of his plans anymore. He doesn't seem to hold any of it against Mr. H but he refuses to confide in or rely on him. That turnaround feels really strong if you look at how much Joshua relied on him beforehand. Or if you view his impression of his assassination attempt as contingent on his trust of Mr. H.
The crumbs of information we get about Joshua and Hanekoma's relationship after the betrayal might seem sort of circumstantial. Joshua doesn't want to talk about his feelings for Neku in the secret ending. That carries over into A New Day, and seems to be about Neku. And then in NEO Joshua doesn't give any information to Mr. H for… unknowable NEO plot reasons. But there's something else between og TWEWY and NEO to suggest that Joshua doesn't trust Hanekoma with shit.
A New Day- Hanekoma (over the phone): If that kid is who I think he is, then he probably doesn't know a thing. If he's who YOU think he is, then he probably won't say a thing.
At first this reads fine because Joshua spent his week with Neku tight lipped and evasive as hell. But still, isn't it a little weird for Mr. H to be saying this? He tells Mr. H stuff, doesn't he? Not anymore! It feels like this Hanekoma is talking pretty universally despite having been the exception. But he doesn't know shit and he doesn't propose he can help them know shit if it's about Joshua. And maybe Coco's fake Shibuya has something to do with that, but it's hard to say.
Honestly, aside from gaining the perspective to not destroy a whole city (important), it's easy to look at this and wonder if Joshua came out of TWEWY worse off. And… yeah, NEO really doesn't seem to help that. But I'm going to end this off with some really vague NEO speculation.
What if it's REALLY just Hanekoma who doesn't know shit about Joshua now? It's probably impossible to know the extent of this, but for some reason Shiki and Beat seem to treat Joshua with a slight sense of familiarity now…? The fandom also (quite reasonably) assumes that the real final day of NEO is the first time Neku has seen Joshua since the final day of TWEWY but we don't actually know that. Some food for thought.
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#selfie bee#good evening friends!! how are you doing! C:#I'm very very sleepy I got a new ikea office chair and I build it all myself#I think it went okay! I don't think I pulled the back screw tight enough and now the back is a bit loose#I can probably fix it but I can also ignore it for the next 18 years#thats how long the old chair held up!! in germany it could now drink vodka and drive a car!!#not at the same time that is illegal! not at the same time!! (❁´▽`❁)*✲゚*#but the day is not over yet my uncle asked me for a big art quest and I do not want to disappoint#he wants a muppet tattoo and asked me to draw it#my uncle has started to get tattoos a few months ago#as far as I know he has now gotten 3 note clefs 3 stars a flower and multiple birds#he also started getting piercings but so far I managed not to know exactly where#I think tattoos are super cool (´。・v・。`) I wish I had a good idea for a tattoo but the last time I was very sure about getting a tattoo#it was heath ledgers face as the joker#at that point I was 12 and would not see the actual movie for two more years#a muppet tattoo is a way better idea!! he asked for the count van count! that is also one of my top 3 muppets ₍՞◌′ᵕ‵ू◌₎♡#I always thought I knew a lot about muppet lore but since I started looking up muppet pictures I think there are still a lot of secrets#can the muppets from the Sesame Street actually leave the Sesame Street?#I think Kermit is both on the Muppet Show and on Sesame Street but he is also like the boss muppet#he might have special abilities#I hope you're having a good day friends!! C:#I think I'll post a Sherlock comic later this week#miss you!! ♥♥♥
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aroacewolfic · 4 months
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I hate it when people's first reaction to me saying I'm aroace is "oh but don't you wanna have a partner and kids in the future, won't you be sad without that" Like no bitch I'm gonna be happy living alone in the peace and quiet with my cats and dogs and 1000 books to keep me company and I'm gonna be just as happy and complete as every other person out there if not happier.
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opikiquu · 22 days
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more Penacony memes!!!! (yeah its still mostly aventurine)
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5oz-mud · 4 months
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their ship names kimeema. im joking. or am i..?
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abstractfrog · 8 days
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SILVER BLAZE PART THREE - happy jonkday everyone. one of these days i'll draw a scene that doesn't take place at night
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poopystain · 2 months
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short animation intended as a fun little remake of one i made a whole 5 years ago
old underneath cut
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haunted-xander · 8 months
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I guess old feelings don't disappear that easily
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musubiki · 21 days
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i think the most powerful final form for mochi timeskip outfit will embrace her witch nature 🖤
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hecksupremechips · 8 months
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Honestly shoutout to Steven Universe for the representation of malachite and abusive relationships because it holds up really well and is still like one of the only abuse narratives I’ve seen that portrays how like. Abusive relationships aren’t as simple as “evil abusive person was constantly Mean and Bad to nice victim” like. Lapis is a realistic victim. She refused to leave the relationship because she longed to have connection with someone and she liked feeling as though she could have control for once, even though she really didn’t. She wasn’t nice and innocent, she felt anger and resentment and liked taking it out on Jasper. And despite how horrible it was, she deeply misses Jasper because it was the longest and deepest relationship she’s ever had with anyone and she didn’t know how to function without it
But Lapis is still a victim and we’re meant to care for her and understand where she comes from. She chose to stay with Jasper to keep others safe from her harm, and because she thought she herself deserved the abuse as a way of making up for everything bad she’s done. Jasper reminds Lapis over and over that she is a monster and that’s why they should be together, because Jasper is the only one who understands her. And when Lapis finally rejects their relationship, she mostly states it through what she herself felt and has done, saying that she didn’t like the person she became in that relationship and she never wants to feel like that ever again. It’s messy and complicated, just like how actual abuse is
Anyways yeah talk about a very good abuse narrative thanks steven universe
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11syrups · 10 days
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“You believe me like a god, I betray you like a man”
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huitandahalf · 2 months
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I know that we got plenty of options as to how everything with the Ender King is going to go down, but a thought that has not left my mind was the idea of the Ender King downing qPhil in some way and taking him away. Which means there would be a chat message for all to see :)
For example :)
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#qsmp#qsmp philza#this could be better or worse depending on how many people qPhil tells about the whole mess (itll probably be 0 tbh)#cause if he tells no one#not even his kids#then it will be a gut punch#like pov you are chayanne and tallulah#you just lost your godfather in Tubbo#you may have just lost someone who really cares for you in Bad#and you gotta hold onto your dad right? if something was wrong he would have told you right? he promised to not keep secrets right?#and now hes gone without a word#was the Ender King that much of a threat that he could take your dad without any hint that it could happen? or were there just signs#that you missed. that you could have seen and stopped. you could have saved your dad but you didnt. why didnt you notice him change?#and to a lesser extent there is also the gut punch to fitmc#pov you are fitmc#phil promised to keep you updated on all the hallucination stuff and hasnt said anything to you about it in a long time#thats a good sign right? itd be bad if the Ender King was real and came to help phil anyway#he had some crying obsidian appear in his inventory? clearly the admins are messing with him it couldnt be anything#and now hes gone#and you find out that he was hiding things from you from his children#there were more messages more hallucinations#why didnt he tell you?#did he not trust you? hes right to do it but you thought he trusted you with this at the very least#and now#what do you do?#you dont even know where to start in looking for him#did he really trust you that little?
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munchboxart · 1 year
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LEVEL
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anotherpapercut · 9 months
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genuinely so many of you want to be leftist and "punk" and countercultural soooooo bad but you refuse to become comfortable with the concept of people taking drugs for fun because they like it and not because they were somehow tricked or forced into it without knowing what they were getting themselves into
you'll be like "addiction is a disease!!" but think you're better than those degenerate stoners because you only drink energy drinks and white claws and would never touch "illegal drugs"
many if not most drugs CAN be consumed completely safely with almost 0 risk to the user and even if that werent true and all drugs were extremely dangerous you still wouldn't be better than those of us who love doing drugs recreationally
lighten up and grow up. get offline, talk to real adults, and stop being shocked to discover that they enjoy doing stuff that adults do like have sex and do drugs and even listen to rock and roll
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oceanwithouthermoon · 3 months
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kaido and nendo casually watching saiki freak out over his crush and barely reacting or caring about why is so funny to me
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pkaykim · 1 year
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Oofurixmas2022 for @meela-31
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