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starksinthenorth · 3 years

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Musings on ASOIAF Ladies and Ambition

I’ve noticed people use “ambition” to describe Sansa and Daenerys as if it’s a bad word or an insult (often called “power hungry”). Yet in the text of the series, neither of them are shown to be ambitious people as a core characteristic. I blame the series for a lot of this, because it failed to explore the internal dialogue of Sansa, Arya, and even Cersei, who ends up more humanized than either of them by the end (because of the maybe baby).

Cersei Lannister is the classic ambitious ASOIAF lady, whose point-of-view is introduced in perhaps the most iconic sentence of any introductory chapter:

She dreamt she sat the Iron Throne, high above them all.

I can’t think of a sentence in ASOIAF that better introduces the internal thoughts and view of its leading character.

In comparison, Sansa’s first sentence is receiving news about her father’s whereabouts, Daenerys is shown her new dress to meet Drogo, and Arya has crooked stitches again. Arya’s works to frame her relationship with Sansa and her internal struggle to fit the feminine Westerosi mold, while Sansa and Daenerys are setting up plot points. None of these interactions signal ambition, bad or good. Daenerys did not arrange her wedding, Sansa is just told the information by her Septa, and while Arya is aspiring to have straight stitches, that’s hardly an ambitious goal for a girl of nine.

Fans rarely, if ever, deny Cersei’s cruel, cold, often stupid ambition. In fact, it’s one of the reason people seem to love her. She’s internally open about what she wants - power - and when she wants it - now:

All of them are burning now, she told herself, savoring the thought. They are dead and burning, every one, with all their plots and schemes and betrayals. It is my day now. It is my castle and my kingdom.

- AFFC, Cersei III

The rule was hers; Cersei did not mean to give it up until Tommen came of age. I waited, so can he. I waited half my life. She had played the dutiful daughter, the blushing bride, the pliant wife. She had suffered . . . She had contended with Jon Arryn, Ned Stark, and her vile, treacherous, murderous dwarf brother, all the while promising herself that one day it would be her turn. If Margaery Tyrell thinks to cheat me of my hour in the sun, she had bloody well think again.

- AFFC, Cersei V

Cersei is the definition of a power hungry lady, scheming and cheating at every point. Yes, Sansa learned from her, but most of Sansa’s internalized lessons of Cersei’s were to do the exact opposite.

"The night's first traitors," the queen [Cersei] said, "but not the last, I fear. . . . Another lesson you should learn, if you hope to sit beside my son. . . . The only way to keep your people loyal is to make certain they fear you more than they do the enemy."

"I will remember, Your Grace," said Sansa, though she had always heard that love was a surer route to the people's loyalty than fear. If I am ever a queen, I'll make them love me.

- ACOK, Sansa VI

Cersei isn’t the only POV character who views herself outside of conventional Westerosi standards and aspires to something beyond being a wife and mother. Arya Stark has ambition writ clear on the page, though it is not so cold or denying other people their rights or chances. Compared to Cersei, Arya doesn’t want everything, crown and throne and kingdom and all. She just wants something, and even that is denied to highborn women in Westeros. Even when she asks her father about her future, a man who wants to do right by his children and loves them, Eddard Stark is blinded by Westerosi patriarchy:

Arya cocked her head to one side. "Can I be a king's councillor and build castles and become the High Septon?"

"You," Ned said, kissing her lightly on the brow, "will marry a king and rule his castle, and your sons will be knights and princes and lords and, yes, perhaps even a High Septon."

- AGOT, Eddard V

With Arya in this, I see some parallels to Elaena Targaryen, who was so good at math and management she served as the secret Master of Coin while her husband carried the title. Elaena was “more willful than Rhaena, but not as beautiful as either of her sisters,” yet is also said to have been “more beautiful at age seventy than at age seventeen,” growing into herself like Arya is expected to. They both even cut their hair, Arya to hide her gender and Elaena to hide her beauty, both instances to gain freedom from captivity in the Red Keep.

Despite both these examples of ambition - Cersei’s all-encompassing, without care for how it affects the realm, and Arya’s attempt to find a place in the world outside the Westerosi model - it still becomes an insult when people speak of Daenerys and Sansa.

Critics claim Sansa is ambitious, and negatively so, because she “wants to be queen.” But this criticism misses a vital point of Sansa’s character. Unlike Cersei, she does not want to be queen because of the power and political influence, but because she will be living a song. In the start, Sansa’s got her head in the clouds, not to the dirty world of politics. Her very first chapter lays out this motivation incredibly clearly:

All she wanted was for things to be nice and pretty, the way they were in the songs.

When she thinks of Joffrey and being in love with him, it’s because he’s “handsome and gallant as any prince in the songs” (AGOT, Sansa II),

Alternatively, it has been said that Sansa is ambitious because of her claim to Winterfell. But compare how Sansa thinks of her claim to how Big Walder Frey does. Despite being far down the inheritance line, he is certain he will someday possess the Twins. He’s likely willing to kill his family to become Lord of the Crossing, and already has killed Little Walder.

In comparison, Sansa isn’t the one who realizes her claim as heir to Winterfell, even after her two younger brothers are believed dead. It’s Dontos who mentions it, and after she still thinks that Robb will have sons to inherit.

But she had not forgotten his words, either. The heir to Winterfell, she would think as she lay abed at night. It's your claim they mean to wed. Sansa had grown up with three brothers. She never thought to have a claim, but with Bran and Rickon dead . . . It doesn't matter, there's still Robb, he's a man grown now, and soon he'll wed and have a son. Anyway, Willas Tyrell will have Highgarden, what would he want with Winterfell?

- ASOS, Sansa II

Sansa’s not ready to kill Bran and Rickon if they show up. Her arc is about taking off the rose-tinted glasses and seeing reality, but also working to make reality like a song. For example, her idea of the Tournament of the Winged Knights for Sweetrobin. It’s a song come to life, all by her making. TBD how the ending goes, of course, but it shows that trajectory.

And finally, Daenerys.

Daenerys is not driven by some lifelong desire to win and dominate. She’s forced into it, a la Brienne’s “no chance and no choice.” If Daenerys were raised in a stable environment, I have a feeling she’d be much more like Sansa: dreamy, hopeful, sweet and studious. Happy.

But instead, her eyes are open.

When she’s introduced as a character, she shows an awareness for the schemes and politics of the world. She knows her brother is called the Beggar King in the Free Cities, and is doubtful of the smallfolk’s secret toasts to Viserys III that Illyrio Mopatis claims happen across Westeros.

Like Sansa and Cersei, there’s evidence of her goals, hopes, and wishes in the very first chapter:

"I don't want to be his queen," she heard herself say in a small, thin voice. "Please, please, Viserys, I don't want to, I want to go home."

. . .

Dany had only meant their rooms in Illyrio's estate, no true home surely, though all they had, but her brother did not want to hear that. There was no home there for him. Even the big house with the red door had not been home for him.

Daenerys remembers home as the house with the red door in Braavos. It’s her brother whose only home and stability was the Red Keep, not her.

Throughout her journey of power to take back the Seven Kingdoms, she is doubtful at every turn and most of her wishes are for happiness, for peace, for stability.

Dany had no wish to reduce King's Landing to a blackened ruin full of unquiet ghosts. She had supped enough on tears. I want to make my kingdom beautiful, to fill it with fat men and pretty maids and laughing children. I want my people to smile when they see me ride by, the way Viserys said they smiled for my father.

- ACOK, Daenerys II

A queen I am, but my throne is made of burned bones, and it rests on quicksand. Without dragons, how could she hope to hold Meereen, much less win back Westeros?

- ADWD, Daenerys II

Even later, Daenerys is determined to bring peace to the lands she currently rules. She does plan to return to the Seven Kingdoms, but it’s not driven by pure ambition. And this is, notably, from a conversation when Prince Quentyn Nymeros Martell asks her to come back and claim them now, saying she has allies for that conquest. And still she turns him down, with promises that it will only happen eventually:

"Daenerys said. ". . . .One day I shall return to Westeros to claim my father's throne, and look to Dorne for help. But on this day the Yunkai'i have my city ringed in steel. I may die before I see my Seven Kingdoms. Hizdahr may die. Westeros may be swallowed by the waves."

- ADWD, Daenerys VII

And yet in both Sansa and Daenerys, these visions and hopes for the futures they might have are considered unbridled ambition, although they turn more on happiness and peace for themselves and their people, rather than the type of ambition Cersei has, which is clearly her own power and being heralded above everyone.

Daenerys’ thoughts in her sixth chapter of ADWD have the same energy as Sansa’s “I will make them love me.”:

"A queen must know the sufferings of her people."

. . .

A queen must listen to her people, Dany reminded herself.

Daenerys has figured out how to make her people love her, by wearing her “floppy ears” and appealing to the masses, listening to them, et cetera. She’s also a bit ahead of Sansa in the realm of ruling, to be sure.

But how are these similar thoughts ambition in either of them? It’s an attempt to empathize and connect, not to throw away and disregard and rule by force and domination. Both these ladies are more nuanced, and the fandom does them a disservice by painting them as ambitious or power-hungry when at the end for both of them, it’s a desire to have a happy, stable, loving life.

#asoiaf meta #sansa stark #daenerys targaryen #cersei lannister #arya stark

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kellyvela · 3 years

Note

GRRM has said in interviews that he’s purposely played with the romantic tension between the hound and Sansa. What do you think the endgame purpose of the unkiss and that playing is meant to be for?

This is all what he said about the matter in question so far:

The Hound and Sansa, romantic or platonic? It could be very different things to each of those involved, mind you!

JUNE 24, 1999 THE HOUND AND SANSA

Moreta12: I understand, I’ve heard your opinion on that. In ACOK, it seems that the relationship between the Hound and Sansa had romantic undertones. Is that true?

GeoRR: Well, read the book and decide for yourself.

Moreta12: I’ve read the book and I’ve debated those particular scenes with a few others. Half say that it’s romantic and half say it’s platonic. I’ve taken the romantic stance.

GeoRR: It could be very different things to each of those involved, mind you

Moreta12:Yes, but it seem like evidence points towards romantic undertones. Will the Hound appear later?

GeoRR: Yes, the Hound will be in STORM OF SWORDS. In fact, I just finished writing a big scene with him.

[Source]

When will Sansa be “legal”? **ºª@”¡¿x<%$!&?

OCTOBER 05, 1999 AGE OF SEXUAL RELATIONS IN WESTEROS

The nature of the relationship between Sandor and Sansa has been a hot topic on Revanshe’s board. Sansa’s youth has been one focus of the discussion. What is the general Westerosi view as to romantic or sexual relationships involving a girl of Sansa’s age and level of physical maturity?

A boy is Westeros is considered to be a “man grown” at sixteen years. The same is true for girls. Sixteen is the age of legal majority, as twenty-one is for us.

However, for girls, the first flowering is also very significant… and in older traditions, a girl who has flowered is a woman, fit for both wedding and bedding.

A girl who has flowered, but not yet attained her sixteenth name day, is in a somewhat ambigious position: part child, part woman. A “maid,” in other words. Fertile but innocent, beloved of the singers.

In the “general Westerosi view,” well, girls may well be wed before their first flowerings, for political reasons, but it would considered perverse to bed them. And such early weddings, even without sex, remain rare. Generally weddings are postponed until the bride has passed from girlhood to maidenhood.

Maidens may be wedded and bedded… however, even there, many husbands will wait until the bride is fifteen or sixteen before sleeping with them. Very young mothers tend to have significantly higher rates of death in childbirth, which the maesters will have noted.

As in the real Middle Ages, highborn girls tend to flower significantly earlier than those of lower birth. Probably a matter of nutrition. As a result, they also tend to marry earlier, and to bear children earlier. There are plenty of exceptions.

[Source]

Unreliable Narrator

JUNE 26, 2001 SF, TARGARYENS, VALYRIA, SANSA, MARTELLS, AND MORE

[GRRM is asked about Sansa misremembering the name of Joffrey’s sword.]

The Lion’s Paw / Lion’s Tooth business (*), on the other hand, is intentional. A small touch of the unreliable narrator. I was trying to establish that the memories of my viewpoint characters are not infallible. Sansa is simply remembering it wrong. A very minor thing (you are the only one to catch it to date), but it was meant to set the stage for a much more important lapse in memory. You will see, in A STORM OF SWORDS and later volumes, that Sansa remembers the Hound kissing her the night he came to her bedroom… but if you look at the scene, he never does. That will eventually mean something, but just now it’s a subtle touch, something most of the readers may not even pick up on.

[Source]

(*) It was Arya who misremembered the name of Joffrey’s sword tho…

Unreliable Narrator 2.0

OCTOBER 05, 2002 SANSA’S MEMORY

[Note: This mail has been edited for brevity.]

… this is an inconsistency with ASoS more than an outright error. In ASoS, Sansa thinks that the Hound kissed her before leaving her room and King’s Landing. In ACoK, no kiss is mentioned in the scene, though Sansa did think that he was about to do so.

Well, not every inconsistency is a mistake, actually. Some are quite intentional. File this one under “unreliable narrator” and feel free to ponder its meaning

[Source]

Unreliable Narrator 3.0

NOVEMBER 27, 2007 GEORGE R.R. MARTIN ANSWERS YOUR QUESTIONS

Here’s a really particular question (which I realize means it probably won’t get asked in a general interview): In A Storm of Swords, there is a chapter early on where Sansa is thinking back to the scene at the end of A Clash of Kings when The Hound came into her room during the battle. She thinks in the chapter about how he kissed her, but in the scene in A Clash of Kings, this actually didn’t happen. Was that a typo or something? —Valdora

GRRM: It’s not a typo. It is something! [Laughs] ”Unreliable narrator” is the key phrase there. The second scene is from Sansa’s thoughts. And what does that reveal about her psychologically? I try to be subtle about these things.

[Source]

Sansa may be dead but Alayne is alive

APRIL 15, 2008 FUTURE MEETINGS, POVS, ARYA’S ROLE, EASTERN LANDS, AND ASSASSINS

[Will Sandor and Sansa meet?]

Why, the Hound is dead, and Sansa may be dead as well. There’s only Alayne Stone.

[Source]

A lot more dangerous than romantic

AUGUST 2, 2009 AS SER JORAH MORMONT…

weltraummuell: The Hound Oh please don’t cast an old guy for the Hound, his scenes with Sansa are so romantic and erotic, I couldn’t bear if it’d feel creepy all of a sudden. Well, that’s me making demands. LOL

GRRM: Re: The Hound Old guy? No, but… the Hound is still a whole lot older than Sansa, and was never written as attractive… you know, those hideous burns and all that… he’s a lot more dangerous than he is romantic.

kestrana: The Hound Yeah its a “girl always wants the bad boy” kind of thing although Sansa seems to pull something else out of him. It feels so wrong sometimes but I want to see them together again tee hee.

weltraummuell: The Hound Hehe, George, maybe you didn’t intend it, but he turned out to be a very erotic character to female readers. Especially since he’s mutilated and dangerous. Makes him unpredictable and vulnerable which is the most explosive aphrodisiac for a girl’s fantasy. ;)

weltraummuell: The Hound And I know from discussions on other board other women feel just the same about Sandor. He’s an absolute favourite with the ladies!

halfbloodmalfoy: The Hound LOL, you’re such a man. To many of us women, dangerous *is* attractive.

GRRM: The Hound But no one has any love for poor old Sam Tarly, kind and smart and decent and devoted…

[Source]

I played with it but I didn’t get the answer I was waiting for

JUNE 22, 2012 SWORD & LASER VIDEO PODCAST

GRRM: I am sometimes surprised by the reactions, of women in particular, to some of the villains. The number of women over the years who have written to me that their favorite characters are Jaime Lannister or Sandor Clegane [the Hound] or Theon Greyjoy… All of these are deeply troubled individuals with some very dark sides, who have done some very dark things. Nonetheless, they do draw this response, and quite heavily, I think, in the case of some of them, from my female readers in particular.

Veronica Belmont: I’m a big fan of the Hound, myself, actually.

Tom Merritt: Of Sandor? Really?

Veronica Belmont: Yeah, the Hound… Maybe it’s not because I feel any compassion towards them, I’m not really sure what the attraction is. Ah, I’m not going to call it attraction, actually. Let’s just say it’s a fascination, perhaps.

GRRM: [Chuckles] Well, I mean, fascination is one thing, but some of these letters indicate that there really is like a romantic attraction going on there. And I do know there’s all these people out there who are, as they call themselves, the “San/San” fans, who want to see Sandor and Sansa get together at the end. So that’s interesting, too.

Tom Merritt: The TV show has sort of played with that a little, and probably stoked those fires.

GRRM: Oh, sure. And I’ve played with it in the books. There’s something there, but it’s still interesting to see how many people have responded to it.

[Source]

I played with it but I didn’t get the answer I was waiting for 2.0

JUNE 23, 2015 GRRM Q&A AT THE SCIENCE FICTION BOOKSTORE IN STOCKHOLM

Question: “Is there any fan reactions that you have been surprised by, like is there a character that’s more popular than you thought or have people been shocked by something you didn’t think we would be shocked at?”

GRRM: “I’m reasonably certain what people will be shocked by. I knew that the Red Wedding would provoke a big reaction and it did. I was pretty confident that, you know, throwing Bran out the window and then killing Ned in the first book would get reactions, and indeed they did. All of those worked exactly the way it did to the extent that things that have surprised me, they tend to be smaller things. I guess I… Maybe I should not have, I don’t know. How do I phrase this without getting myself in terrible trouble… I guess I don’t understand women, but I was definitely, you know, way back when, surprised by the number of women who reacted positively to characters like Theon and the Hound as dashing, romantic figures. The san/san kind of thing took me by surprise, I must admit, and even more so the women who, and there are some, who really like Theon. So that surprised me.”

[Source]

Unreliable Narrator 4.0

DECEMBER 2016 ASKING GEORGE R.R. MARTIN ABOUT S@N/S@N

My question is regarding Sansa Stark. Her sexuality has evolved through every book and yet the memory that seems to stick the more with her in this regard is the night of the Blackwater. So I was wondering if you can expand on your view on what this is, since as before that night her interactions with Sandor Clegane weren’t really physical.

The night of the Blackwater, yes. Ahhh… Well, I’m not going to give you a straight answer on that hahaha… Uhmmm, but I would say that ahhh… you know a television show and a book each has its own strengths and weaknesses; there a re tools that are available to me as a novelist, that are not available to people doing a television show. And of course there are tools available to them, that are not available to a novelist, I mean they can lay in a soundtrack, they can do special effects, they can do amazing things that I can’t do, I just have words on paper. What can I do, well I can use things like the internal narrative, I can take you inside of territories… thoughts, which you can’t do in a TV show… Ahhh… You just have the words they speak, you see them from outside because the camera is external, while prose is internal, and I have the device known as “unreliable narrator”… Ahhh… Which again, they don’t have. So, think about those two aspects when you consider that night of the Blackwater.

[Source]

Do with it what you will.

#anon asks #sansa stark #the so called unkiss #grrm #asoiaf

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alinaastarkov · 4 years

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Are there any specific Jonrya Quotes that doesn't mean sibling love? If so which ones?

Yes! Loads! Thanks for this ask.

She [Ygritte] is no older than I am. Something about her made him think of Arya, though they looked nothing at all alike. "Will you yield?" he asked, giving the dirk a half turn. And if she doesn't? - Jon VI ACOK

I don’t know about you guys, but it’s not often I’m romantically attracted to someone who immediately reminds me of my sibling. But hey, maybe that’s just me.

Ygritte watched and said nothing. She was older than he'd thought at first, Jon realized; maybe as old as twenty, but short for her age, bandy-legged, with a round face, small hands, and a pug nose. Her shaggy mop of red hair stuck out in all directions. She looked plump as she crouched there, but most of that was layers of fur and wool and leather. Underneath all that she could be as skinny as Arya. - Jon VI ACOK

Once again, I tend not to imagine my (future) romantic partner’s naked body and think of my sibling. I’m starting to sense a pattern 🤔

"NO!" Arya and Gendry both said, at the exact same instant. Hot Pie quailed a little. Arya gave Gendry a sideways look. He said it with me, like Jon used to do, back in Winterfell. She missed Jon Snow the most of all her brothers. - Arya I ASOS

Even Arya is comparing her (future potential) love interest to Jon. It’s an epidemic!

She reminded him a little of his sister Arya, though Arya was younger and probably skinnier. It was hard to tell how plump or thin Ygritte might be, with all the furs and skins she wore. - Jon II ASOS

Yet another instance of Jon thinking of Ygritte’s body beneath her clothes and thinking of Arya. Hmm, suspicious 👀

Kind of strange to question his relationship to Arya, especially after all of those inappropriate thoughts regarding Ygritte. And to question only Arya? Seems like someone really wishes they weren’t blood related so it wouldn’t feel wrong to think of her that way...

"It wasn't Longspear, then?" Jon was relieved. He liked Longspear, with his homely face and friendly ways. She punched him. "That's vile. Would you bed your sister?" "Longspear's not your brother." - Jon III ASOS

Real smooth, Jon. Real smooth. Notice how he totally dodges the question? How we never get an answer on if he would bed his sister? Perhaps because the answer is yes?? Notice how this sounds a lot like it might tie in to “their passion will continue to torment them until the secret of Jon’s parentage is revealed in the last book”? Very suspicious.

"He's with the Night's Watch on the Wall." Maybe I should go to the Wall instead of Riverrun. Jon wouldn't care who I killed or whether I brushed my hair . . . "Jon looks like me, even though he's bastard-born. He used to muss my hair and call me 'little sister.'" Arya missed Jon most of all. Just saying his name made her sad. - Arya VIII ASOS

“I know where we could go," Arya said. She still had one brother left. Jon will want me, even if no one else does. He'll call me "little sister" and muss my hair. - Arya XII ASOS

Maybe not explicitly romantic per se, but it is telling that she genuinely believes her own mother and brother would not want her for superficial reasons and because of the people she killed in self-defense, but her belief in Jon doesn’t waver for a single second.

Jon has a mother. Wylla, her name is Wylla. She would need to remember so she could tell him, the next time she saw him. She wondered if he would still call her "little sister." I'm not so little anymore. He'd have to call me something else. - Arya VIII ASOS

Arya’s questioning her relationship with him too?! To distance herself from him and subconsciously make it easier to deal with romantic feelings in the future?! Will it ever end?!

"It's just a sword," she said, aloud this time . . . . . . but it wasn't. Needle was Robb and Bran and Rickon, her mother and her father, even Sansa. Needle was Winterfell's grey walls, and the laughter of its people. Needle was the summer snows, Old Nan's stories, the heart tree with its red leaves and scary face, the warm earthy smell of the glass gardens, the sound of the north wind rattling the shutters of her room. Needle was Jon Snow's smile. He used to mess my hair and call me "little sister," she remembered, and suddenly there were tears in her eyes. - Arya II AFFC

This is so sweet and the specificity of his smile over the more general descriptions of the rest of her family mark it out as different in some way.

She had never cared if she was pretty, even when she was stupid Arya Stark. Only her father had ever called her that. Him, and Jon Snow, sometimes. Her mother used to say she could be pretty if she would just wash and brush her hair and take more care with her dress, the way her sister did. To her sister and sister's friends and all the rest, she had just been Arya Horseface. But they were all dead now, even Arya, everyone but her half-brother, Jon. Some nights she heard talk of him, in the taverns and brothels of the Ragman's Harbor. The Black Bastard of the Wall, one man had called him. Even Jon would never know Blind Beth, I bet. That made her sad. - The Blind Girl ADWD

Arya loves Jon so much she wishes he could meet her alter-egos too. Ugh, the romantic angst is too much.

"He's to marry Arya Stark. My little sister." Jon could almost see her in that moment, long-faced and gawky, all knobby knees and sharp elbows, with her dirty face and tangled hair. They would wash the one and comb the other, he did not doubt, but he could not imagine Arya in a wedding gown, nor Ramsay Bolton's bed. No matter how afraid she is, she will not show it. If he tries to lay a hand on her, she'll fight him. "Your sister," Iron Emmett said, "how old is …" By now she'd be eleven, Jon thought. Still a child. "I have no sister. Only brothers. Only you." Lady Catelyn would have rejoiced to hear those words, he knew. That did not make them easier to say. His fingers closed around the parchment. Would that they could crush Ramsay Bolton's throat as easily. - Jon VI ADWD

Once again, Jon thinks of Arya in a way that a brother really shouldn’t think of a sister. Funny how he specifically says “Ramsay Bolton’s bed”, and not just any man’s bed? Maybe because he can imagine her in someone’s (his)? Either way, weird thing to think about, Jon. And a very violent reaction to your sister’s marriage. Way more than his reaction to another sister’s marriage. Definitely intense feeling that goes beyond sibling bond.

"I have no sister." The words were knives. What do you know of my heart, priestess? What do you know of my sister? Melisandre seemed amused. "What is her name, this little sister that you do not have?" "Arya." His voice was hoarse. "My half-sister, truly …" - Jon VI ADWD

Need I say more?

Jon felt fifteen years old again. Little sister. - Jon IX ADWD

This is not so big in terms of non-sibling feelings but it is a very intense reaction and also I love Jon being such an emo little shit here cause... Jon, bby, you’re sixteen. Calm down.

The girl smiled in a way that reminded Jon so much of his little sister that it almost broke his heart. "Let him be scared of me." The snowflakes were melting on her cheeks, but her hair was wrapped in a swirl of lace that Satin had found somewhere, and the snow had begun to collect there, giving her a frosty crown. Her cheeks were flushed and red, and her eyes sparkled. "Winter's lady." Jon squeezed her hand. - Jon X ADWD

This is such a romanticised scene and the fact that it mentions Arya at the same time, and Jon’s intense feeling again, gives me pause and made me put it on this list.

It had been so long since he had last seen Arya. What would she look like now? Would he even know her? Arya Underfoot. Her face was always dirty. Would she still have that little sword he'd had Mikken forge for her? Stick them with the pointy end, he'd told her. Wisdom for her wedding night if half of what he heard of Ramsay Snow was true. Bring her home, Mance. I saved your son from Melisandre, and now I am about to save four thousand of your free folk. You owe me this one little girl. - Jon XI ADWD

Again, veeeerrry intense feelings, the mention of her wedding night again, and the fact that he once more questions his relationship with her. It’s too repetitive and obvious not to mean something.

You know nothing, Jon Snow. He thought of Arya, her hair as tangled as a bird's nest. I made him a warm cloak from the skins of the six whores who came with him to Winterfell … I want my bride back … I want my bride back … I want my bride back … "I think we had best change the plan," Jon Snow said. - Jon XIII ADWD

So, Jon thinks of his former lover and Arya right after, repeats the phrase “I want my bride back” specifically in reference to Arya, and imo “bride” is not what you call someone you have only platonic/ familial feelings for. That would be very weird. Then he abandons all his vows, something he had the opportunity to do and didn’t at least 3 separate times, for and only for Arya, and if that ain’t just the most romantic shit you ever heard. And then of course he literally dies with her as his last thought. Romantic. As. Fuck!

There is more than this, but you asked for things that don’t also mean sibling love, so here you go! 🤗

#asoiaf #jonrya #jon snow #arya stark #jon x arya #jonarya #my meta #sort of #shut up neve #Anonymous #neve has mail

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butterflies-dragons · 4 years

Note

oh j0nryas know about balticon report, they just think he was being coy (asdjkahs same delusion with s/ns/ns), that he was rambling bc he was trying not to give spoilers. at this point he could go on live and say "no dumbasses there is no j0nrya, there won't be, there never was" (same w pedoships) and they will all be like "omg it is definitely happening in twow, look at how he's trying to divert our attentions, we are onto you george hehehe"

OK let’s review, again, chronologically, all the times that GRRM was being coy and trying to divert his readers’ attention regarding the ships you mentioned:

The “It could be very different things to each of those involved” Alternative: “Mind you!”

JUNE 24, 1999 THE HOUND AND SANSA

Moreta12: I understand, I’ve heard your opinion on that. In ACOK, it seems that the relationship between the Hound and Sansa had romantic undertones. Is that true?

GeoRR: Well, read the book and decide for yourself.

Moreta12: I’ve read the book and I’ve debated those particular scenes with a few others. Half say that it’s romantic and half say it’s platonic. I’ve taken the romantic stance.

GeoRR: It could be very different things to each of those involved, mind you

Moreta12:Yes, but it seem like evidence points towards romantic undertones. Will the Hound appear later?

GeoRR: Yes, the Hound will be in STORM OF SWORDS. In fact, I just finished writing a big scene with him.

[Source]

The “Why are you asking me about Sansa’s sexuality?” Alternative 1: “Are you really asking me when your fave male adult character can fuck a girl, 15 years younger than him, without guilt?” Alternative 2: “Why are you so gross?”

OCTOBER 05, 1999 AGE OF SEXUAL RELATIONS IN WESTEROS

The nature of the relationship between Sandor and Sansa has been a hot topic on Revanshe's board. Sansa's youth has been one focus of the discussion. What is the general Westerosi view as to romantic or sexual relationships involving a girl of Sansa's age and level of physical maturity?

A boy is Westeros is considered to be a "man grown" at sixteen years. The same is true for girls. Sixteen is the age of legal majority, as twenty-one is for us. However, for girls, the first flowering is also very significant... and in older traditions, a girl who has flowered is a woman, fit for both wedding and bedding. A girl who has flowered, but not yet attained her sixteenth name day, is in a somewhat ambigious position: part child, part woman. A "maid," in other words. Fertile but innocent, beloved of the singers. In the "general Westerosi view," well, girls may well be wed before their first flowerings, for political reasons, but it would considered perverse to bed them. And such early weddings, even without sex, remain rare. Generally weddings are postponed until the bride has passed from girlhood to maidenhood. Maidens may be wedded and bedded... however, even there, many husbands will wait until the bride is fifteen or sixteen before sleeping with them. Very young mothers tend to have significantly higher rates of death in childbirth, which the maesters will have noted. As in the real Middle Ages, highborn girls tend to flower significantly earlier than those of lower birth. Probably a matter of nutrition. As a result, they also tend to marry earlier, and to bear children earlier. There are plenty of exceptions.

[Source]

The “Unreliable narrator - Part 1” Alternative: “The much more important lapse in memory that was promised”

JUNE 26, 2001 SF, TARGARYENS, VALYRIA, SANSA, MARTELLS, AND MORE

[GRRM is asked about Sansa misremembering the name of Joffrey’s sword.]

The Lion’s Paw / Lion’s Tooth business, on the other hand, is intentional. A small touch of the unreliable narrator. I was trying to establish that the memories of my viewpoint characters are not infallible. Sansa is simply remembering it wrong. A very minor thing (you are the only one to catch it to date), but it was meant to set the stage for a much more important lapse in memory. You will see, in A STORM OF SWORDS and later volumes, that Sansa remembers the Hound kissing her the night he came to her bedroom… but if you look at the scene, he never does. That will eventually mean something, but just now it’s a subtle touch, something most of the readers may not even pick up on.

[Source]

The “Unreliable narrator - Part 2” Alternative: “It doesn’t mean what you think it means”

OCTOBER 05, 2002 SANSA’S MEMORY

[Note: This mail has been edited for brevity.]

Well, not every inconsistency is a mistake, actually. Some are quite intentional. File this one under “unreliable narrator” and feel free to ponder its meaning

[Source]

The “Unreliable narrator - Part 3” Alternative: “Better ask yourself about Sansa’s psychological state”

NOVEMBER 27, 2007 GEORGE R.R. MARTIN ANSWERS YOUR QUESTIONS

[Source]

The “The answer is No” Alternative: NO!

APRIL 15, 2008 FUTURE MEETINGS, POVS, ARYA’S ROLE, EASTERN LANDS, AND ASSASSINS

[Will Sandor and Sansa meet?]

Why, the Hound is dead, and Sansa may be dead as well. There’s only Alayne Stone.

[Source]

The “He’s a lot more dangerous than he is romantic” Alternative: “BUT THERE IS SAM!”

AUG. 21ST, 2009 AS SER JORAH MORMONT… - NOT A BLOG

weltraummuell: The Hound And I know from discussions on other board other women feel just the same about Sandor. He’s an absolute favourite with the ladies!

halfbloodmalfoy: The Hound LOL, you’re such a man. To many of us women, dangerous *is* attractive.

GRRM: The Hound But no one has any love for poor old Sam Tarly, kind and smart and decent and devoted…

[Source]

The “That’s interesting...” Alternative: “They are deeply troubled individuals, Harriet”

22 JUNE 2012 SWORD & LASER VIDEO PODCAST

Veronica Belmont: I’m a big fan of the Hound, myself, actually.

Tom Merritt: Of Sandor? Really?

Tom Merritt: The TV show has sort of played with that a little, and probably stoked those fires.

GRRM: Oh, sure. And I’ve played with it in the books. There’s something there, but it’s still interesting to see how many people have responded to it.

[Source]

The “I guess I don’t understand women” Alternative: “I'm shook”

JUNE 23, 2015 GRRM Q&A AT THE SCIENCE FICTION BOOKSTORE IN STOCKHOLM

[Source]

The “Comfort level of femininity” Alternative: “That's not a reference for romance”

MAY 29, 2016 BALTICON REPORT

My con friend asked about the Jon/Arya relationship again and brought her (impressive) Game book that had all of her references marked out with little flags. She brought up the Ygritte connections to Arya that Jon saw in her. George did not directly answer yes or no if there would be anything romantic between the two.

George did say, despite what readers see as clues to a romantic relationship between Jon/Arya in the books themselves, he did not confirm this so easily but inferred that what Jon saw in Ygritte was a comfort level of femininity. <<< She and I obviously discussed these comments after the meeting and this was the general feeling.

My con friend was referring to George explaining Jon’s perception: GRRM replied, “You know, I don’t think it’s a reference for that [for romance]. It’s a reference to a certain physical type, and a certain indication of what Jon finds admirable. It’s like someone who reminds you of, you know… Other people might be put off by this, you know, hair that looks like small rodents have been living in there. It doesn’t put him off because he is used to that.”

The “I was making up shit.” Alternative: "I wish I can delete that"

MAY 29, 2016 BALTICON REPORT

After the Coffee Talk just outside the room:

My Con Friend asked about Arya and Jon again. This time GRRM gave some very pointed replies:

GRRM finished (in the hallway now) by saying that he “wished some past things weren’t such strong foreshadowing,” and that he, “wished some new things had stronger foreshadowing then.”

Friend: Ok, if you foreshadowed something in the first book, like, really cleverly hidden, would you then follow through on that hint? For sure?..

GRRM: “Well, this goes with what I said before, the story changes and expands as I write. I wish I was able to go back and make revised drafts, but that’s not going to happen.”

Here is a transcript of the outline discussion and Jon/Arya portion of the coffee talk:

[question about Jon/Arya]

GRRM: “Alright, you’ve thought about this more than I have. I mean it’s simple, Jon is very fond of Arya. They were the two odd birds in the Stark family nest, here. They didn’t quite fit in with the others, they look like each other, they both had the brown hair, you know, as opposed to the auburn hair of Sansa and Bran and Rickon and Robb. So there was always that closeness between them. And, you know, Arya didn’t mind that Jon was a bastard, and Jon didn’t mind that Arya was a tomboy, so there is that closeness there.”

[question about Jon comparing his lover to his sister]

GRRM: “If he did it, uhm… I began writing these books in 1991, and, uhm, I worked on it in 91 and then I got a tv play, so I put it aside to really work on ‘Doorways’ tv pilot and did a tv show in 92-93. In 94 I returned to it [the books] and worked on it. You know, up till then, in my career as a writer, I’d always written the entire book before I opted for sale. That’s unusual. Most writers do chapters and an outline. They write a few chapters, they outline the rest of the book, give that to the publisher and the publisher says ‘oh okay, I’ll take that’.

“As some of you may have noticed, those who have been paying very, very carefully attention, I’m not good with deadlines. And, uh, and I’m not good with outlines, either. I always hated outlines. So with Fevre Dream and with Armageddon Rag and with Dying of the Light and all my novels, I wrote the entire book. I didn’t do chapters and outline. I sat down, I wrote a whole book, and I sent it to my agent and said ‘Look, here’s a whole book, and it’s finished’. That way I ran into no deadline, it was finished before it even went on the market. And it worked well for me. And my initial thought was to do this the same way, but what happened, you know, was in 1994, uhm, when I returned to it and I’m working on it and I’m very enthused about it and I say ‘I really wanna write these Game of Thrones books as the next part’. But I was still in Hollywood and I’d just lost all this groundwork on ‘Doorways’, I was still in… The studios and networks still wanna work with me, so I’m getting other offers, like ‘We want you to write this movie’, ‘we want you to do another tv pilot’. And, you know, I took a couple of them and was ‘Oh god, I gotta have to put the book away again’. Cause I have no deadline [for the book]. You know, when you think Hollywood, they will give you a deadline, you know, they say ‘here, son, write this movie, we want it in three months’.

“So, I said ‘look, if I wanna get back to being a novelist, I’m gonna have to sell this even though it’s not finished’. So I had my 200 pages of Game of Thrones at that point, but they wanted outline. I said ‘I don’t do outlines. I don’t know what’s gonna happen, I figure it out as I go. And that’s how I always did it.’ No, we had to have an outline. So I wrote two pages, a two-page thing about what I thought would happen. It’ll be a trilogy, it’ll be three books, Game of Thrones, the Dance with Dragons, and Winds of Winter. Those were the three window titles. And, uh, it’ll be three books and this’ll happen, and this’ll happen, and this’ll happen. And I was making up shit.

“And I had thought that those two pages were long forgotten, because, of course, the books did sell. They sold in the United States and in Great Britain, both. They sold for enough money that I didn’t have to take any more Hollywood games. So I was able to say ‘no’ around. I had a few less [?] to wind up in in 94 and 95. Once I had, I said ‘no, I don’t want any more movies or tv shows, I’m going to write these books now’. And I started writing the books. And in the process, I pretty much disregarded the outline. The characters took me off in entirely different directions. So, for 20 years I had forgotten that that two-page thing even existed. And then someone in my British publisher, HarperCollins, they got a new office building, uh, brand new offices, and new conference rooms, big conference rooms that they decorated with books and stuff like that. And they named the conference rooms after the writers, so one of the conference rooms [?], and they put up these plastic display cases, including the outline. The two-page outline, yes. [?], they didn’t ask my permission, they just put it up. And in that two-page outline, Jon and Arya become a romantic item.”

“You know, I don’t think it’s a reference for that [for romance]. It’s a reference to a certain physical type, and a certain indication of what Jon finds admirable. It’s like someone who reminds you of, you know… Other people might be put off by this, you know, hair that looks like small rodents have been living in there. It doesn’t put him off because he is used to that.””

[someone says they have 5 minutes left]

“You know, I was pretty pissed that that outline got out there. It should not have happened. Outlines and letters like that are meant only for the eyes of the editor. They shouldn’t go on public display. And, uh, they also [?] my papers on [?], all my papers and correspondence. You know, I’ve been sending that stuff there for years, and it’d be, you know, available for future scholars or whatever, just like the papers of many other writers. Somehow, in the back of my head I was like ‘yeah, 20 years after I’m dead some scholar will go in and find them’. They’re going in right now!” ”

[question if he is still going with the 1991 ending]

“Yes, I mean, I did partly joke when I said I don’t know where I was going. I know the broad strokes, and I’ve known the broad strokes since 1991. I know who’s going to be on the Iron Throne. I know who’s gonna win some of the battles, I know the major characters, who’s gonna die and how they’re gonna die, and who’s gonna get married and all that. The major characters. Of course along the way I made up a lot of minor characters, you know, I, uhm…Did I know in 1991 how Bronn, what was gonna happen to Bronn? No, I didn’t even know there’d be a guy named Bronn. I was inventing him along the way when I was writing, ‘Okay, he gets kidnapped. Let’s see, there are a couple sellswords there, their names are Fred and Bronn’.

“It was actually Bronn and Chiggen, and then one of them dies, I flipped a coin ‘okay, who dies? Chiggen dies, cause his name is stupid. Bronn is a better name, so I’ll keep Bronn’. And then Bronn became quite an interesting character and plenty of these characters take on minds of their own. They push to the front till you [?] speech and you think of a cool line and you give it to Bronn because he’s trying to talk, and now Bronn is somebody who says something cool. [?]. That’s how characters grow on you. “So a lot of the minor characters I’m still discovering along the way. But the mains-”

[question if he knows Arya’s and Jon’s fates]

“Tyrion, Arya, Jon, Sansa, you know, all of the Stark kids, and the major Lannisters, yeah.”

This report appears in the following sources:

fattest leech of ice and fire blog [Source 1]

asoiaf.westeros.org [Source 2]

westeros.org [Source 3]

The “Unreliable narrator - Part 4” Alternative: “I think I had enough...”

DECEMBER 2016 ASKING GEORGE R.R. MARTIN ABOUT SAN/SAN

The night of the Blackwater, yes. Ahhh... Well, I'm not going to give you a straight answer on that hahaha... Uhmmm, but I would say that ahhh... you know a television show and a book each has its own strengths and weaknesses; there a re tools that are available to me as a novelist, that are not available to people doing a television show. And of course there are tools available to them, that are not available to a novelist, I mean they can lay in a soundtrack, they can do special effects, they can do amazing things that I can't do, I just have words on paper. What can I do, well I can use things like the internal narrative, I can take you inside of territories... thoughts, which you can't do in a TV show... Ahhh... You just have the words they speak, you see them from outside because the camera is external, while prose is internal, and I have the device known as "unreliable narrator"... Ahhh... Which again, they don't have. So, think about those two aspects when you consider that night of the Blackwater.

[Source]

Most of these questions make me think of Nabokov having to clarified, regarding Lolita, that he didn’t write a romance..........

So there’s that, everyone can draw their own conclusions. God knows that in this fandom: “We look up at the same stars, and see such different things.”

Thanks for your message.

#anon ask #grrm #jon and arya #sansa deserves better #the things i have to read...#poor george #poor nabokov

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stardyng · 5 years

Note

Top 5 asoiaf quotes, top 5 ships, top 5 moments that made you wanna cry?

Top 5 ASOIAF Quotes:

“I take no joy in mead nor meat, and song and laughter have become suspicious strangers to me. I am a creature of grief and dust and bitter longings. There is an empty place within me where my heart was once.” - Catelyn VII, ACOK

‘‘“They are children, Sansa thought. They are silly little girls, even Elinor. They’ve never seen a battle, they’ve never seen a man die, they know nothing. Their dreams were full of songs and stories, the way hers had been before Joffrey cut her fathers head off. Sansa pitied them. Sansa envied them.” - Sansa II, ASOS

“For herself, she wanted sleet and ice, howling winds, thunder to shake the very stones of the Red Keep. She wanted a storm to match her rage.” - Cersei II, AFFC

“It is such a long way. I was tired, Jorah. I was weary of war. I wanted to rest, to laugh, to plant trees and see them grow. I am only a young girl.“ - Daenerys X, ADWD

‘‘ “The War of the Ninepenny Kings?” asked Hyle Hunt. “So they called it, though I never saw a king, nor earned a penny. It was a war, though. That it was.” - Brienne V, AFFC

Top 5 Ships:

Jaime/Brienne: The dynamic between these two characters is so brilliant. It’s so interesting to see how they affect each other, and how they play such a big part into each other’s character arc even after they’re separated. I really think this is a ‘’hate to love’’ relationship done almost perfectly. I don’t think it’s perfect though due to the problematic elements to this relationship (mostly linked with the depiction of Cersei’s character vs Brienne’s).

Harry/Sansa: I am perhaps the only person that ships them but that’s okay. Is Harry a dumb jock? Yes he is. Was he rude to her when they first met? Yes. However, because of their following interaction, I really started to appreciate the idea of them together. Harry is one of the few men that tend to be romantically linked with Sansa that legitimately compliments her intelligence, calls her pretty without being creepy about it, laughs at her jokes, actually apologized for being rude and seems to actually treat her like an actual person. Plus, it’s really fun to see Sansa bewilder him. People use him as prop for their favorite problematic ship and act as if he’s such a terrible person but he’s literally just a 17 year old fuckboy.

Cersei/Teana: I don’t think I ever spoken about the love I have for this relationship. I honestly love it when we see the dynamic between the villains in a story and the people they enjoy being with. I get swept away in their joy and pleasure. Most of the characters that interact with Cersei explicitly treat her like an idiot and it can get quite frustrating to read about, so when we have people like Qyburn and Teana (who perhaps is a spy but still) who treat her with more respect, it’s really nice. Plus, that moment after her walk of atonement where Cersei asks if Teana could come back to court actually makes me really sad for some reason.

Catelyn/Eddard: Every time Catelyn talks about their relationship, it breaks my heart. The whole concept of it is really appealing to me. You know, she was betrothed to his attractive extroverted older brother but then he died and she ended up with this more pensive and serious individual whom she didn’t like at first, but time peeled away all the walls that was separating them and they learnt to like each other and what followed was years of trust, love and mutual respect.

Oberyn/Ellaria: This is definitely one of the healthiest relationships in ASOIAF and I kinda wish we gotten more of it. What a particularly like is how Oberyn doesn’t try to monopolize Ellaria’s sexuality. This ‘’open’’ relationship was as much for her as it was for him and you see in the text. All in all, forgetting that aspect of their relationship, they bring in a different energy than most of the canon relationships in this series, and one that I wholeheartedly respect and enjoy.

Top 5 moments that made you wanna cry?

I haven’t actually cried while reading these books but there are numerous moments that made me emotional.

Joffrey Showing Sansa’s Her Father’s Head (Sansa VI, AGOT): There is no chapter that is as heartbreaking to me as that one. I know a lot of people who felt satisfied upon seeing Sansa come to realize that ‘’life is not like a song’’ but for me, it feels really tragic because at the end of the day, Sansa was just a child, who had notions that made sense considering her age, and seeing her forced to reject them so abruptly just makes me really sad. She respected the queen so much yet she comes to realize that the woman considered her to be stupid. She used to romanticize Joffrey and talk about how pretty his lips were but now she sees them as worm-like. She used to believe that the heroes always prevailed and that the monsters lose but then this whole event just breaks that idea apart. Much later, she comes to the conclusion that even though this world isn’t ideal, that there is still a chance that there are still some good things in it, and she’ll do her part in order to spread that goodness, but now her worldview is shattered and she doesn’t know what or who to believe. She even though about killing herself. She’s an 11 year old girl who thought about killing herself! People don’t point out how absolutely tragic that is. Plus, the last line ‘’Sansa was a good girl and always remembered her courtesies.’’ just emotionally kill me.

Joffrey Beating Sansa in Front Of The Court (Sansa III, ACOK): GRRM punishing Sansa for having a certain worldview and doing certain things is absolutely terrible especially because he doesn’t do the same for a lot of the other characters, but that doesn’t make these chapters any less impactful. This chapter is really sad precisely of who Sansa is and what she used to believe. She used to idealize Knights so much, yet as it turned out, none of the kingsguard even said one word as she got beaten and stripped in public. She cares more than most about what other people think of her and she puts a lot of effort to impress so it’s also really saddening to see her humiliated in such a way in front of them. They are legitimately laughing as she gets abused. My heart just goes out to Sansa.

The Red Wedding (Catelyn VII, ASOS): What really hit me about this chapter was everything in relation to Catelyn. It’s how she died thinking that most of her children were dead, how the last thing she saw was her oldest son die in front of her, and see all their efforts burn in flame in front of her. The later reveal that she wasn’t supposed to get killed made it even more crushing. The moment where Robb mutters her name before his death and Catelyn’s last internal monologue before her death are definitely the most harrowing moments of the chapter.

Cersei Doing Her Walk Of Shame (Cersei II, ADWD): I fully empathize with Cersei and all the hardships that she had to face through out her life. Some people are very quick in deciding to not feel bad for her precisely because she is a villainous character, but there’s so much complexity in her character, and in the end, I can’t help but care about what happens to her. This situation is so incredibly horrible for Cersei. Not only did she have to walk naked through the streets of King’s Landing, but people were degrading her body and constantly shaming her for her sexuality. To top all of this , this situation really forced Cersei to think about some of her regrets and fears through out her life. That moment where she tears streamed down her face when she started thinking about the prophecy and then started running and stumbling through out the streets even though she said she wasn’t going to do that hits me every time.

Jeyne’s and Ramsey’s Wedding (The Prince Of Winterfell, ADWD): Theon and Jeyne both had absolutely terrible years leading up to this. Jeyne is a child who was forced into sex slavery, isolated from everyone she knew and loved, with most of them ending up dead and then was forced into marriage with one of the most atrocious men in Westoros. Theon not only lacked a true home where he could feel safe for most of his life, with no actual father figure, but he had to undergo years of mutilation and psychological torture. To have both of them forced into even more pain by Ramsey is just really depressing to read about. The westorosi system has fucked them over so much and neither deserved this kind of suffering and pain.

#asoiaf #A Song of Ice and Fire #Sansa Stark #brienne of tarth #cersei lannister #catelyn stark #sansa x harry #jeyne poole #theon greyjoy #teana merryweather #oberyn martell #ellaria sand #oberyn x ellaria #ned x catelyn #cersei x teana #braime #daenerys targaryen #asks

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saltxiron · 6 years

Note

The Ironborn are rapists in canon. What are Asha's opinions on consent. Does it bother her, does she take no issue with it, has she ever engaged in it? Also we see in the show that Yara/Asha makes port and her entire crew is in a whore house. Do you think they actually paid the people there or did they pay the iron price or were the people so scared they were just like "yo this one is on us."

Hey! Thanks for this question @wxldchxld! It’s a great one and I feel like it is not really explored too much. TW: RAPE, TW: RAPE MENTION, TW: VICTIM BLAMING, TW: VICTIM SHAMING

TLDR: Asha is anti rape with some problematic elements

Asha at her core is actually very anti-rape I believe, though she does have some internalized misogynistic views about consent because of her culture and because of the family dynamic in which she was raised. This is manifested differently in the book vs. the show. When I roleplay, I take from both the show and the books so I’ll talk a little bit about her outlook in both.

From what we are told in the books about Asha as a child- she says she played with dolls AND axes and that her mother “raised her to be bold,” I think she was a child similar to Arya- but luckily born into a family that allowed her to be who she was. However, they only allowed this because it is only traditionally masculine traits that are valued in the Ironborn culture. The Ironborn culture is incredibly misogynistic, but not in the way the Greenlanders are. Women are allowed to break the gender mold as long as they are behaving as men would. As Theon says in ACOK, “There were women on the Iron Islands—not many, but a few—who crewed the longships along with their men, and it was said that salt and sea changed them, gave them a man’s appetites.” Such women are still considered beneath men, but they are considered better than other women it seems. So, in a way, the Ironborn culture is better than Westeros when it comes to gender nonconformity- but it is a very narrow definition of gender nonconformity. The Ironborn seem to be okay with gender nonconformity ONLY when the nonconformity is a woman exhibiting what they consider to be masculine traits. If a man exhibits feminine traits, the Ironborn shun them. This is shown by the way they treat Theon as less even before his abuse and mutilation. So because of her culture, Asha would have learned to accentuate her “masculine” traits and downplay her “feminine” ones in order to be successful.

IN THE BOOKS, Asha is a child of war who witnesses her two elder brothers killed and her younger brother essentially kidnapped. The defeat was a crushing blow for both of her parents- Balon and Alannys. Alannys had a breakdown after losing her sons and Balon raised Asha as his heir. So suddenly her father was encouraging her to be like a son to him as her mother’s sanity slowly deteriorated because of the loss of her sons. What Asha learned from that is that the only way she could gain love from her parents was through becoming a son to them. I also think that witnessing the deterioration of her mother made her terrified of being put into a traditionally feminine role. Her mother was this strong, Ironborn woman who raised her to be bold- but the grief at losing her children broke her. I think Asha internalized that as “traditional roles for women such as motherhood will break your spirit and that loving people too much will make you weak.” I think that she then carries those ideas over to her view of rape.

I think that Asha has internalized the Ironborn view of rape in that she feels that if you are raped, it means you are weak or allowed yourself to be vulnerable. An internalized victim blaming view. So she uses her privilege as Balon’s daughter to make herself as strong and untouchable as she can. She turns down marriage, she captains her own ship. Instead of being a victim of rape, she leads the rapers herself. It’s kind of fucked up in a way. But even with all of this, she is seen to understand that she herself- a great Ironborn warrior- was lucky not to be raped by Stannis’ men in A Dance with Dragons.

And at the same time, she is constantly expressing concern for other woman in spite of her internalized victim blaming. There are a number of instances where she brings up the feelings of other women to the misogynistic men around her as if they should be given equal consideration to theirs. When Theon says he won’t visit Alannys until there is peace, she counters that his visit would bring Alannys peace. And then during her negotiation with Victarion she calls him out on the “honor killing” of his wife after Euron raped her. As Victarion is going on about how he had to murder her for honor and how grieved he is over it, Asha responds saying, “I am sorry for you. And more sorry for her.”

Through Asha’s POV chapters we get the feeling that even though she is is completely accepted as Ironborn and exemplifies their best aspects, she is nonetheless very different from the typical Ironborn. Her relationship with Alys the She-Bear shows this well. Whereas the other Ironborn characters take pride in their raiding and raping, Asha seems to realize how much damage that has actually caused when Alys tells her, “every child on Bear Island learns to fear krakens rising from the sea.” Then there is also the fact that she is the only one at the Queensmoot Kingsmoot that is offering peace instead of more war and who wants to make alliances with the Northmen in order to acquire the land they need. So even though she is not standing up to the rape culture of her people directly, Asha plays the long game and her plans would cut down on raping and pillaging considerably.

As for whether or not she has actually engaged in rape herself, I would say definitely not in the book. However, she does allow it to happen when leading raids. I think that can be assumed since there is no mention of her preventing or punishing her men for rape, the way Theon did at Winterfell. So while she doesn’t condone it, she allows it to happen in order to keep her men loyal to her and as a war strategy. Which is problematic as fuck but also somewhat understandable in her situation.

IN THE SHOW, Asha seems to have internalized her culture even more. Or it may only seem that way because we don’t have her POV chapters to know her inner thoughts and her role in the series is seen mostly through the POV of Theon. But this could also be because their mother is mentioned only once, and is otherwise completely absent from the show. Asha also does not come into contact with Alys Mormont in the show or her Uncle who advised her that “It’s LAND we need not crowns.” Those key elements are missing and so Asha comes off as much more Ironborn in every way. Yet at the same time, she defies her father to attempt to rescue Theon who has been tortured, mutilated, and raped. She also quickly agrees with Daenerys that there will be no more raping or reaving, after like a second of hesitation. (Personally, I think she should have secured some land from Daenerys in exchange for joining forces with her but that’s just me lol- then again, I am also baffled that the show didn’t include Asha’s call for peace, trade, and alliance with the North in the Kingsmoot scene because to me that was the most revealing thing in the book about both the Greyjoy siblings- Even though Asha had a good relationship with Balon as opposed to Theon, both of them went against their own ideas to please him. Once he died, she could act on her ideas for strategy to make the Ironborn stronger- which actually went really well with Theon’s own original alliance with Robb Stark.)

All that being said, in the show, Asha may have engaged in rape. I say may because I’m not sure if that was D&D’s intention. But in the show the woman Asha is with in the brothel in Braavos has a tattooed tear on her face along with all the other women which may mean that she is actually a slave to that brothel- something that this article explored. Personally, though, I don’t think D&D meant it to be rape- they are really clumsy when it comes to this kind of thing- remember when they made a consensual act between Cersei and Jaimie look exactly like a rape haha. Ughhhh. But I could be totally wrong. I prefer to look at it as they are at a regular brothel where the women are not sex slaves but I also choose to ignore the show canon of Asha’s speech for the Kingsmoot because it was so opposite to the progressive, strategic character in the book- none of this is on Gemma though- she was amazing in both scenes.

As to your question about them playing the Iron price I think that it was either they paid for them like regular clients or the brothels themselves did say “This is on us,” because of their reputation. I think the Ironborn do actually pay for a lot more things than they say they do as long as they are not actively pillaging or reaving. I think to some of the Ironborn, the Old Way of paying the Iron Price for everything is absolutely true- like with Balon and Euron. But I think that Asha’s generation (like Tris, Qarl etc) have a lot more nuance and are more open to things changing.

#wxldchxld #tw rape #tw rape mention #tw mutilation #tw victim blaming #tw victim shaming #long post #this took years off of my life to write haha #but thank you for the question!#I just hope I was able to articulate it well #META║▌ᵂᴴᴬᵀ ᴵˢ ᴰᴱᴬᴰ ᴹᴬᵞ ᴺᴱᵛᴱᴿ ᴰᴵᴱ⚔️#HEADCANON║▌ᴺᴼ ᶠᴵᴳᴴᵀ ᴵˢ ᴴᴼᴾᴱᴸᴱˢˢ ᵀᴵᴸ ᴵᵀ ᴴᴬˢ ᴮᴱᴱᴺ ᶠᴼᵁᴳᴴᵀ⚔️#ASHA 🗡️ᴵᴿᴼᴺ ᵛᴱᴵᴺᴱᴰ

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janiedean · 7 years

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Janie can you talk to me about brienne? You dont think she will truly betray love of her life jaime do you? I cant help but think that would dishonor her and it would be awesome if she has to break an oath for the greater good as he once did. ❤

HELLO ANON PLEASE LET’S GO OVER MY PET THEORIES RE HOW THE BRIENNE/JAIME/LS SITUATION IS GOING DOWN

okay so, let’s remember one fundamental thing first: she was about to get hanged for him. she refused to make the choice stoneheart offered her, which means she already broke an oath she swore her for jaime. and that she was going to die so that she wouldn’t have to kill him.

now, she didn’t, of course, because she’s a nice decent person and she doesn’t want hyle and pod to die with her when they were just along for the ride, and we all know she lied her ass off to jaime to convince him to come alone.

deduction first: she’s indeed bringing him to lady stoneheart, because she wants to save pod and hyle, otherwise she’d be dead already.

other thing that we should take into account when discussing that situation: at the end of adwd, cersei asks kevan where jaime is. the focus is usually on the fact that she’s 100% sure that jaime couldn’t have gone off with brienne rather than go back to her, but what’s more important imo is that kevan says jaime went off with brienne weeks before or at least a considerable amount of time has passed since anyone had news of him. now, I don’t think that if either of them died but especially if brienne had killed jaime or let the brotherhood kill him, the body wouldn’t have been found? especially when they haven’t hidden frey bodies? like let’s be real, they’d have found his head already.

deduction second: whatever goes down with lady stoneheart, doesn’t kill jaime and doesn’t make him go back to his army.

now, what has jaime done when he was fifteen? swore himself to an insane king who he had to kill for the greater good and that was the tombstone over his assumption that knightly ideals/oaths actually mattered anything, since no one asked him why, no one realized that he had saved people’s lives and just labeled him dishonorable (this after he spent two years developing ptsd from the ripe age of fifteen wow), and killing aerys was what pretty much sealed the deal and turned him that bitter at the ripe age of seventeen.

except that then brienne - who’s like, eighteen or nineteen so very close to his kingslayng age in canon - went and kickstarted his knightly instincts again by showing him that True Knights TM Who Still Believe In Oaths exist, and when she comes to get him (lying) in adwd he’s... just, being very rational about all of that, and let’s remember that he managed to get riverrun to surrender without raising arms against the tullys therefore not breaking his oath to catelyn. ops.

now, while brienne kickstarted his knightly instincts, he also gave her a very healthy lesson in ‘the world isn’t black and white and oaths aren’t everything’, which she really needed, and we saw the results in affc - we don’t have her acok povs, but it’s obvious that it’s not the same person who swore fealty to renly and that she can see jaime’s point - and that’s she’s in love with him, but never mind. what brienne hasn’t had, though, is the moment where her vows are actually tested and she has to put them against losing what she loves and/or doing the right thing, which is... what jaime had to do with aerys.

and who is lady stoneheart rn? the person brienne swore herself to and who’s gone utterly insane and is not who she chose to serve anymore, and who’s asking her to choose between her oath and jaime’s life.

also, who loves parallels? grrm. he loves them a lot.

deduction three: brienne brings indeed jaime to lady stoneheart, but then instead of handing him over or killing him herself (which is most probably what they’ll ask her to do) she’s going to kill LS instead therefore LS becomes her aerys, which would come very close to make her lose a lot of force of will/her drive, except that who’s there and has gone through all that process already and has found out he doesn’t indeed have shit for honor? jaime.

now, in between the brotherhood, hyle and pod, someone is going to inform him that brienne would have died for him if other people’s lives weren’t at stake. I don’t think jaime’s been in the position of hearing someone’s willing to die for him lately or at any point in his life tbh. and if something would make you realize that you’re into someone but you haven’t realized it yet, I think hearing that they were willing to die for you might do the trick.

also someone is going to need to make sure she doesn’t feel extra dishonorable for killing LS (or better, putting her out of her misery) and like I really dig the idea that jaime might be there to make sure brienne doesn’t turn into him post-aerys.

given all of the above, I think it’s at least likely that this is what brings them together (I mean, if they ever act on their feelings it’s either here or nowhere, or at least later would be a lot more complicated) and somewhat likely that jaime never went back to his army (and he didn’t want to go back to KL in his last adwd chapter) because he’s off with brienne to look for sansa or something of the kind, but I’m betting money on the two of them plus possibly hyle/pod going to the vale or something of the kind after brienne kills LS aerys-style and jaime gives her some serious pep talk about her having done it not making her dishonorable since according to her he’s not dishonorable for killing aerys, right? right.

tldr: of course she’s not truly betraying the love of her life. and she’s definitely going full circle with the LS/aerys parallel, same as jaime’s gonna go full circle with his newly re-found honor/going back somewhat/as much as possible to the person he was before he went into the kingsguard (spoilers: not a bad one, let’s all remember that he wanted to be arthur dayne and turned out being the smiling knight ACCORDING TO HIS OWN WORDS), which means they’ll have gone through all the necessary character development they needed to move forward with their lives.

which, obviously, according to me means they’re moving on together but of course we shall see on that.

anyway. these were my two cents, thanks for the attention. ;)

#brienne of tarth #jaime lannister #jaime x brienne #janie writes meta #janie speculates #otp: i dreamed of you #idk these aren't even book spoilers if you read adwd so #LET'S SEE HOW RIGHT OR WRONG I AM HMM #when george releases goddamned wow ofc #Anonymous #ask post

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shinylitwick94 · 7 years

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Reread A Clash of Kings. Not as good as the first book, but that had been my initial impression too, the first time I read it. I’m going to go into a little bit more detail here.

THERE WILL BE POTENTIAL SPOILERS for all the books, the Dunk and Egg novellas, the show, the WOIAF, TWOW sample chapters, etc.

This book drags for me, for some reason. It doesn’t drag as badly as I remember AFFC and ADWD dragging, but it still drags. Makes sense, since a lot of it is setting things up for ASOS, but it is noticeably slower than AGOT.

Once again, the sheer volume of things I missed on the first read is staggering. I barely cared about the Riverlands plotlines or Jon the first time around, so the only things I had semi clear memories of were the King’s Landing chapters, Dany’s chapters and the Winterfell chapters. And even then I pretty much missed half of what is going on.

I think a lot of this is down to the sheer amount of secondary and tertiary characters that actually do matter in these novels. The first time I read this I had no idea who the Freys, the Boltons and all of the other secondary houses were, no clue who half of the courtiers in King’s Landing were, no idea which smaller lords where on Robb’s side, or Tywin’s or Stannis’ or Renlys’. Oddly enough, in contrast with ADWD, I did remember most of the characters from Dany’s plotline and even their names and what they were doing. It was the Westerosi secondary characters I had no interest in. And that meant that things like Cat’s chapters in Riverrun or Arya’s entire plot became completely irrelevant to me. I think the only characters from Arya’s plot that I remembered with any sort of clarity were Gendry and Hot Pie. Everyone else was just a blur of sigils and names and loyalties.

Of course, actually knowing who these people are made rereading those chapters a lot more enjoyable. Especially once you start just how interconnected all of our plot threads are and you can see the beginnings of the Red Wedding(and the Purple one too), or understand what is actually going on during the battle of the Blackwater - as opposed to just thinking I get it - THEY FIGHT - now tell me who wins already. So this part I certainly found a lot more rewarding. I’m pretty sure I talked about it when I reviewed AGOT, but I did feel like it was more noticeable in ACOK.

The plotlines I enjoyed best in this book were pretty much the same I had enjoyed the first time I read this. I liked the King’s Landing stuff, I liked Dany’s chapters, I really liked Theon and I also enjoyed Davos a lot more.

I do think adding Davos and Theon as POV here was absolutely necessary, but the POV issue is going to start snowballing hard in the next books and I’m not entirely sure if all of those additions gave us something we couldn’t have learned via raven.

Theon is definitely my favorite of the two new POVs. Davos is wonderful, but Theon is such a marvelous mess. And, of course, you get to see the whole Ramsay thing with hindsight.

This is also where GRRM starts slowing down his pace and writing in (occasional) filler chapters, namely in Arya’s storyline. I enjoyed Arya’s story a lot more this time than I did the first, since I actually understood wtf was going on, but I don’t think we needed 10 chapters to tell her story. I think a handful could have been quite easily condensed, parts of it even cut without the story suffering too much. The problem is still in its initial stages here, but this is the first time I actually looked at a chapter in these books and went “we didn’t need that at all”. It would be far less of a problem if I didn’t know it was going to get a lot worse really quickly.

Moving on to the topic of Jon/Dany/Tyrion, whom I complain about endlessly.

Cut for length.

Jon’s chapters are up there with Arya’s for being my least favorite ones in this book. The main issue here being that they’re just really, really slow and practically nothing happens. They leave the Wall, pass by Crasters’, Jon finds the dragonglass at the Fist of the First Men, Jon leaves with Qohorin and co, Jon joins the wildlings at the end. I know for some people that is a lot, or at least enough, but for me the whole thing just feels kinda meh. GRRM takes a looong time to describe every mountain wood and river north of the Wall and I’m just not that interested. It’s snowy and cold and inhospitable, we get it, no need to go over it fifty times. And most of the characters in the NW I’m just not that attached to - I can remember Mormont, Sam, Grenn, Pyp, Donal Noye, Edd and that’s about it. All the others just sort of blur together. Which, in the case of Jon “betraying” Qohorin, means that I don’t particularly feel for either of them, I just don’t know who Qohorin is and feel no reason to care about him at all. And then Jon’s narration is for the most part fairly stoic and monotone, which I can understand from a character perspective, but doesn’t really help me. All of this put together makes Jon’s chapters indescribably boring to me and this is probably the point in the series when I started actively dreading Jon’s chapters. I will note, however, that contrary to my initial impression, it’s not Jon that’s boring, just the way his story is being told.

Dany’s chapters are an interesting case for me, because I feel like a lot of what I said about Jon’s story could also be said about her. But the thing is, in the earlier Dany chapters there is a very strong sense of urgency pushing things onward and while the Qarth chapters also drag a bit, they’re also the series’ first major “big different sort of oriental city” moment, which is a lot more visually interesting to me at least than rocks and snow. There’s also a lot fewer of them, which I think is a good thing, since it means that whenever you’re with Dany, something happens - we have 5 Dany chapters to 8 Jon chapters and 15 Tyrion chapters in this. Qarth is also where we see the House of the Undying, which I really enjoyed and meet Quaithe and her creepy prophecies/advice, all of which ties in to the rest of the story and makes it feel less isolated even if she is half a planet away. And of course the arrival of “Arstan” is a lot funnier on a reread, especially since you notice just how many times characters (mostly Renly) point out that Barristan is nowhere to be found and “must have a king to serve”. Is Qarth still a little needlessly complicated? Yep. Unless we see Qarth again, there was no need whatsoever to create six different factions in that city (The Thirteen, Spicers, the whatever Brotherhood, the Pureborn, the warlocks/Undying, Quaithe). I get that part of that is worldbuilding, but it’s also super confusing. Fortunately most names are pronounceable here. So I did enjoy Dany this time.

ACOK is Tyrion’s finest hour. It’s the one where he’s in charge, making decisions, mostly good ones, helping save King’s Landing, calling Joffrey and Cersei out, etc. The result of this is that despite having so many chapters, nearly all of them matter. I do think one or two of them could have been condensed, but it doesn't feel like an issue because he’s doing stuff all the time and it’s stuff that matters, because he matters. He’s also close to other interesting characters, like Joff, Cersei, the members of the small council and Sansa, who the reader is already invested in, which again make his chapters feel a lot more lively. Essentially this is the Tyrion that everyone knows and loves and the Tyrion even I can appreciate without feeling guilty about it.

In ACOK we are introduced to a bunch of new characters, or at least characters we’d heard of before but never seen, like Stannis and his crew, the Tyrells, the Greyjoys, Ramsay and our first real wildlings. It makes the world feel a lot bigger and a lot more impressive, but it’s also harder to keep up with everything going on at the same time.

This is also where things take the first really unexpected turn downhill for the Starks, Ned’s death aside. I was completely shocked and horrified at Theon’s actions here the first time, and I still wanted to throw him inside a vat of acid during the reread, even knowing what’s coming for him. I also feel like the fall of Winterfell is a lot less foreshadowed than the Red Wedding. You have a million pieces set up in this book(and maybe even AGOT?) leading up to that. The fall of Winterfell comes out of nowhere and is pure Theon being an ass. I felt that this, combined with the darkness of Cat and Arya’s chapters made this book feel a lot more depressing than the first one.

Favorite POV: Tyrion, there’s no stealing that from him this time. Theon is also pretty impressive, for different reasons.

Least favorite POV:Jon, for the reasons above. Arya’s a close second, but the reread made those more enjoyable

Favorite scene: Renly’s peach. The only thing that saddens me is that the show thought of “is he a ham?” and GRRM didn’t. I also really enjoyed the House of the Undying.

Favorite character: Theon, for being such a wonderful little shit. Followed by Arya. Her chapters may drag, but she’s still a joy to read.

Least favorite character: Tough to say. Let’s go with Tywin. I really didn’t realize how much shit he put the people of the Riverlands through the first time.

#shinylitwick reads books #acok #asoiaf #spoilers #a clash of kings

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alinaastarkov · 4 years

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i am not an anti or a jonrya, i'm just trying to get a grasp on whether or not there's foreshadowing for it. I don't mean offense but I hope you'll humor me. Couldn't Jon thinking of Arya when he meets Ygritte just be him comparing her with his biggest female influence, Bran compares Meera to Arya! Jon saying "What do you know of my heart?" could just be Jon guarding the part of him that loves all of his siblings. Do you think there's any unambiguous evidence? No hate tho, you do you! x

Hey! No offence at all I’m happy to elaborate on asks like this x

There is merit to what you’re saying about the Ygritte comparison, but I am gonna have to disagree. Jon comparing Ygritte to Arya makes sense because they have similar personalities and it helps his admiration of her grow that they are so similar. Jon and Arya are close, naturally someone similar to Arya would be a huge plus in Jon’s eyes.

Jon could see fear and fire in her eyes. Blood ran down her white throat from where the point of his dirk had pricked her. One thrust and it's done, he told himself. He was so close he could smell onion on her breath. She is no older than I am. Something about her made him think of Arya, though they looked nothing at all alike. "Will you yield?" he asked, giving the dirk a half turn. And if she doesn't? - Jon VI, ACOK

"If you kill a man, and never mean t', he's just as dead," Ygritte said stubbornly. Jon had never met anyone so stubborn, except maybe for his little sister Arya. Is she still my sister? he wondered. Was she ever? He had never truly been a Stark, only Lord Eddard's motherless bastard, with no more place at Winterfell than Theon Greyjoy. And even that he'd lost. When a man of the Night's Watch said his words, he put aside his old family and joined a new one, but Jon Snow had lost those brothers too. - Jon III, ASOS

(I’m gonna come back to that second quote cause it’s important).

But these moments aren’t really what we mean when we talk about Jon comparing them meaning romance. It certainly adds up - the qualities he likes in his lover being the same as Arya can’t be ignored, but it’s these moments that are more overt for the romantic foreshadowing:

Ygritte trotted beside Jon as he slowed his garron to a walk. She claimed to be three years older than him, though she stood half a foot shorter; however old she might be, the girl was a tough little thing. Stonesnake had called her a "spearwife" when they'd captured her in the Skirling Pass. She wasn't wed and her weapon of choice was a short curved bow of horn and weirwood, but "spearwife" fit her all the same. She reminded him a little of his sister Arya, though Arya was younger and probably skinnier. It was hard to tell how plump or thin Ygritte might be, with all the furs and skins she wore. - Jon II, ASOS

This is what jumps out as being super inappropriate and definitely non-brotherly. What kind of brother thinks about his lover’s naked body and the compares it to his sister? Not mine, that’s for certain, and thank god. It’s so odd to have this kind of thought if they are supposed to have a pure, sibling bond. Compare that to Bran, whose thoughts are similar to Jon’s first impressions:

“He wouldn't hurt you. He knows I like you." All of the other lords and knights had departed within a day or two of the harvest feast, but the Reeds had stayed to become Bran's constant companions. Jojen was so solemn that Old Nan called him "little grandfather," but Meera reminded Bran of his sister Arya. She wasn't scared to get dirty, and she could run and fight and throw as good as a boy. She was older than Arya, though; almost sixteen, a woman grown. They were both older than Bran, even though his ninth name day had finally come and gone, but they never treated him like a child. - Bran IV, ACOK

Bran never has a moment of thinking about nakedness and Arya, he simply admires the qualities they share which are mostly playful, childhood fun. Bran is also much younger than Jon, and Meera never entered into a relationship with Bran like Ygritte did with Jon. Yes, they both admire Arya-like qualities they find in other women, but on top of that Jon thinks some overtly physical/ almost sexual things and connects them to Arya. I think there’s a clear difference here between Bran’s brotherly thoughts, and Jon’s rather inappropriate thoughts.

Going back to the passage from before, Jon thinks this:

Jon had never met anyone so stubborn, except maybe for his little sister Arya. Is she still my sister? he wondered. Was she ever? - Jon III, ASOS

Bran never has a moment of doubt like this. Arya always is and will always be his sister. Understandable. Jon, however, doubts it constantly. Because of his vows, his bastardy, but there’s something else too. He doubts his other siblings as well, but he doubts it with Arya the most, perhaps rationalising his less-than-brotherly thoughts about her.

There’s no doubt Jon loves all his siblings. He thinks of Bran and Robb constantly and so many quotes are about them, his whole family.

When Jon had been very young, too young to understand what it meant to be a bastard, he used to dream that one day Winterfell might be his. Later, when he was older, he had been ashamed of those dreams. Winterfell would go to Robb and then his sons, or to Bran or Rickon should Robb die childless. And after them came Sansa and Arya. Even to dream otherwise seemed disloyal, as if he were betraying them in his heart, wishing for their deaths. I never wanted this, he thought as he stood before the blue-eyed king and the red woman. I loved Robb, loved all of them . . . I never wanted any harm to come to any of them, but it did. And now there's only me. All he had to do was say the word, and he would be Jon Stark, and nevermore a Snow. All he had to do was pledge this king his fealty, and Winterfell was his. All he had to do . . . . . . was forswear his vows again. - Jon XI, ASOS

Jon flexed the fingers of his sword hand. The Night's Watch takes no part. He closed his fist and opened it again. What you propose is nothing less than treason. He thought of Robb, with snowflakes melting in his hair. Kill the boy and let the man be born. He thought of Bran, clambering up a tower wall, agile as a monkey. Of Rickon's breathless laughter. Of Sansa, brushing out Lady's coat and singing to herself. You know nothing, Jon Snow. He thought of Arya, her hair as tangled as a bird's nest. I made him a warm cloak from the skins of the six whores who came with him to Winterfell … I want my bride back … I want my bride back … I want my bride back … - Jon XIII, ADWD

“What do you know of my heart” is not one of these times. There are no two ways about it, whether you’re a shipper or not. That quote is about Arya, and Arya alone. Jon’s heart is Arya.

"The heart is all that matters. Do not despair, Lord Snow. Despair is a weapon of the enemy, whose name may not be spoken. Your sister is not lost to you." "I have no sister." The words were knives. What do you know of my heart, priestess? What do you know of my sister? Melisandre seemed amused. "What is her name, this little sister that you do not have?" "Arya." His voice was hoarse. "My half-sister, truly …" "… for you are bastard born. I had not forgotten. I have seen your sister in my fires, fleeing from this marriage they have made for her. Coming here, to you. A girl in grey on a dying horse, I have seen it plain as day. It has not happened yet, but it will." - Jon VI, ADWD

This passage makes it pretty clear. Arya is the one in his thoughts, pretty much exclusively, leading up to this, because of the news of her marriage and Jon’s several attempts to rescue her. Melisandre is the first one to connect Jon’s heart to Arya his sister, and Jon’s thoughts are so explicit here. Arya is his heart, the person who means the most to him. Shipper or not, that’s a fact, though to me, having a brother with the same age gap and both of us would find it very, very weird for him to call me his “heart”, it is extremely romantic. Calling someone your actual “heart” so earnestly is extremely romantic and meaningful. It makes sense seeing as Jon goes on to die for Arya later on.

To me, these are pretty unambiguous. There’s a clear difference between Jon’s thoughts about Arya to the rest of his siblings/ other Starks’ feelings towards each other. I’ve explored more quotes that are hard to be viewed through a sibling lens here too. I’ll just leave you with a quote from GRRM’s original outline because that thing is basically heaven to us Jonrya shippers.

Arya will be more forgiving ... until she realizes, with terror, that she has fallen in love with Jon, who is not only her half-brother but a man of the Night's Watch, sworn to celibacy. Their passion will continue to torment Jon and Arya throughout the trilogy, until the secret of Jon's true parentage is finally revealed in the last book.

#jonrya #asoiaf #my meta #asoiaf meta #jonrya meta #jon snow #arya stark #jon x arya #acok #asos #adwd #original outline #Anonymous #neve has mail

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