#to moral choices and moral pragmatism in Jon’s story

[nightswatchdisbandmentera]

“No.” He could hear the defeat in her voice. “Sorry to be of trouble, m’lord. I only … they said the king keeps people safe, and I thought …”

[…]

Jon watched her go, his joy in the morning’s brittle beauty gone. Damn her, he thought resentfully, and damn Sam twice for sending her to me. What did he think I could do for her?

Jon III, ACOK

This is one of my favorite ‘Jon is the king’ passages because it’s less about him being king by birth and more about him displaying one of the core qualities of kingship - that a king’s key role is to protect his people.

Because its adorable that Gilly heard that Jon is a bastard but upon meeting him, immediately bent the knee (as one would to a king) and then entreated him to help her by appealing to the idea that a king protects people. And with a severe lack of kings north of the Wall, Jon Snow is her best shot; yes there’s Mance Rayder but he’s quite far from Gilly.

And how ironic that Gilly appeals to Jon, a mere bastard boy who is sworn to an order that requires him not to hold any lands or wear any crowns. Jon’s closest relation to kingship at that moment is that his brother, Robb Stark, is king (as Gilly is told that he’s a brother to kings). But Gilly doesn’t say, “in the name of your brother who’s the king help me”. She doesnt say, “King Robb should help me”. She asks Jon to help her; she kneels to Jon. She recognizes that he may stand in for her but is probably seeing Jon, the mere boy, as the embodiment of the king’s duty. Really, it’s an interesting study of kingship as a quality outside of any official titles.

But I do think that Sam had something to do with it. Jon went out of his way to protect Sam in AGOT, so Sam probably used personal experience when speaking to Gilly. He understood that Jon is someone who protects people so he went and told Gilly about it; how ironic that Jon questions what Sam was thinking, because did he forget what he did for Sam?

But Gilly upon hearing Sam’s story asked for Jon’s help not in a “please help me like you helped your best buddy” type of way but in a “please help me like a king would” type of way. I wonder what stories Gilly grew up learning of kingship and if she decided that Jon was a king, despite wearing no crown, once she heard Sam’s story. I’m inclined to think that while Sam told her that Jon would help her, she is the one who then connected that promise of protection to kingship.

But there is also a larger theme that kingship isn’t easy, and Jon is just started on his character development here. He may want to help Gilly, but he hasn’t yet began to understand the wildlings as people in the way that he will later on. What Jon fails to do for Gilly here, he does for thousands of wildlings two books later (and will presumably continue to do so into Winds). While he didn’t challenge Night’s Watch tradition to save Gilly and remove her from a terrible situation here, he later challenged this tradition to remove thousands of others from a terrible situation later on; and even paid for it in some way. Thus, he does eventually live up to the ideal that a king protects the people; though how ironic that he protects the wildlings while still being crownless. And there’s also Alys Karstark who will later kneel to Jon and ask him to perform the king’s duty in regards to marriage and inheritance. What a curious display of Varys’ “power resides where the people think it resides”.

#jon snow #jon the king #asoiaf #valyrianscrolls #canonjonsnow #didn’t put in the post but it’s quite interesting how Gilly is connected #to moral choices and moral pragmatism in Jon’s story #there’s this and then there’s also that scene in ADWD where he has to #mentally toughen himself by repeating the ‘kill the boy’ line #so that he can perform a king’s duty and protect someone - mance’s baby #i personally don’t think he was callous or uncaring of gilly’s wellbeing #because we have that one line from sam’s pov where Jon is watching Gilly breastfeed monster #with a sad smile on his face #it’s most likely that jon is still a work in progress and so pragmatism sometimes ties the line of cruelty #however necessary #but I’m confident that he’ll learn to do better later on ☺️ #my stuff

[abla-soso]

Oh, it's interesting that you're liking Sansa! I haven't been long in the fandom, but it seems like Sansa fans and Daenerys fans really don't get along, so that's actually interesting on your part xD Also! About your Ned comment - I love Ned myself and I've always seen that opening scene as a criticism toward upholding duty that's connected to rigid rules. Like, it seemed obvious that the execution wasn't supposed to be anything positive and yeah, the fandom does tend to ignore it. (This is a re-read on your part, right??? If not, pls ignore the rest of my ask!!!)

- It's part of the reason I get annoyed by the takes on Jon in the latest book when he decides to get involved in the "politics" (fights) of the North for his sister; e.g. fans saying that he had his death coming because he broke his "vows" and that's oh-so-awful of him. Vows, rules, the system - we're supposed to *question* those things because they were man-made and aren't actually (always) morally right. It's a point in the story. The Kingsguard are a prime example of that. So, I really am not sure why the fandom at large doesn't seem to get that. Or maybe I am just missing smth, lol.

Maybe I shouldn't have said I'm "re-reading" the novels, lol. Cuz I only read them years ago - while quickly scanning the text and skipping many paragraphs - and I forgot almost all of it. So really; it's more accurate to say that I'm kinda reading these novels for the first time. At least that's how it feels to me.

I've always liked Sansa but I only really started to appreciate her character in recent years. Western writing has an obsession with active characters, so it's really great to see a mostly passive character like Sansa lovingly flushed out and focused on this much. I never understood why modern readers have such a disdain for passive characters (to the point of considering passivity a character flaw and a sign of poor writing). Not every character needs to directly impact the plot for them to be interesting and likable. The inner world of a passive character can be just as interesting as any active character, especially if the "passivity" was a survival mechanism rather than an inherent personality trait. Most abuse victims are forced into positions of passive powerlessness anyway, with little to no agency to act upon their agency, so it's very distasteful for me to see people shitting on Sansa's passivity. As if passivity can't be an active choice for self-protection. Enduring the abuse that Sansa suffered takes a lot of mental strength, and this strength is a choice.

I never got why people would take "sides" while reading a story like ASOIAF. It's one thing to have favorites and biases, but it's strange to put one character or one house on a pedestal while shitting on the rest. I like the Starks and I like Theon and the Lannisters (as characters, not as people). I like Sansa and I like Daenerys (as a character, not as a person). They are all interesting characters and houses to explore, and if you dismiss one of them because they hurt your favs then you're missing out on huge chunks of the story itself. It's even more strange to root for someone or some house to "win" the Iron Throne when it's pretty damn obvious that the war for the Iron Throne is presented in the text as needlessly brutal and pointless (I blame the show for this).

Ned is a good, kind, honorable man who kinda enslaved himself to his morals. Some readers make the mistake of attributing Ned's tragic fall to the fact that he had altruistic ideals and stuck by them to the end (implying that he should have been more coldly pragmatic and gotten rid of some of his moral goodness) but that's not it. Ned's problem is him blindly equating "honorable" lawfulness with universal moral goodness. He never seriously questions the morality of his times' laws and customs (beheading a mentally ill man who did nothing morally wrong, taking a young boy as a hostage to kill when his father misbehaves). GRRM is not trying to say that honor is false and having moral ideals and vows is dumb and everyone should be cold pragmatics to survive, far from it. GRRM is a realist who adores the romanticism of fantasy, not a nihilist who mocks morality and meaning and values survival above all. The people who read ASOIAF as a nihilist narrative (simply for realistically examining the romanticism of Medieval ideals) are just as mistaken as the people who take uncritically accept Medieval ideals and judge the characters for not following them.

#a song of ice and fire

[jackoshadows]

One of the consistent themes of ASoIaF is that rulers are flawed and human and make mistakes. GRRM has talked about this in interviews, the between a rock and hard place decisions characters have to make, and whether a ruler should make a pragmatic choice or a morally right one. He has compared his rulers to Tolkien’s Aragorn and how in LOTR we don’t get to see what ‘And he ruled wisely’ actually means.

GRRM’s rulers/leaders in Westeros also often times put their own selfish desires above the greater good or allow their emotions to get the better of them, including protagonists like Robb Stark and Jon Snow. His solution to this seems to be a ruler of the 7 kingdoms who is not exactly human - Bran Stark.

“Every judgment teeters on the brink of error,” Leto explained. “To claim absolute knowledge is to become monstrous. Knowledge is an unending adventure at the edge of uncertainty.”   - Children of Dune

The more I think on this, the more I see similarities between Bran Stark and 9 year old Leto II Atreides of Children of Dune. We have been told that Bran on the Iron Throne is GRRM’s ending, however the way the show got there was absolutely atrocious because D&D have no understanding of that story, are not interested in telling it and don’t like the fantasy aspects of the series.

Sorry for referencing the terrible dialogue from the show, but notice how Bran is referred to as ‘Memory’.

Bran: He’ll come for me. He’s tried before. Many times, with many Three-Eyed Ravens. Sam: Why? What does he want? Bran: An endless night. He wants to erase this world, and I am its memory. Sam: That’s what death is, isn’t it? Forgetting … being forgotten. If we forget where we’ve been and what we’ve done we’re not men anymore. Just animals. Your memories don’t come from books; your stories aren’t just stories. If I wanted to erase the world of men, I’d start with you. ‘

- GOT, Season 8, episode 2

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“The boy who fell from a high tower and lived. He knew he’s never walk again, so he learned to fly. He crossed beyond the wall, a crippled boy, and became the Three-Eyed Raven,” Tyrion continued. “He is our memory, the keeper of all our stories: the wars, weddings, births, massacres, famines, our triumphs, our defeats, our past. Who better to lead us into the future?”

- GOT, Season 8, Episode 6

Now of course on the show all this makes no sense because they never really explained what the 3ER was. Sam and Tyrion’s explanation are absolutely nonsensical. So if Bran is killed everyone becomes amnesiacs and animals? How does killing Bran remove everyone’s memory? Why should Bran be king of Westeros just because he’s ‘memory’?

This feels like D&D using the rough bare bones concept GRRM told them and just shoving it in there because they either don’t understand it or don’t care enough to spend time and episodes on Bran as a central character. 

However, Bran being ‘memory’ brings to mind Leto II Atreides. Leto is pre-born and hence is prescient. In Children of Dune, he is 9-10 years old.

At various points, 9 year old Leto talks about how “the entire universe with all its Time is within me”. Leto tells Stilgar that “ I have no first person singular, Stil. I am a multiple person with memories of traditions more ancient than you could imagine”

‘Memories of traditions more ancient that you could imagine’ brings to mind, Bran’s weirwood paste stimulated dreams

Then, as he watched, a bearded man forced a captive down onto his knees before the heart tree. A white-haired woman stepped toward them through a drift of dark red leaved, a bronze sickle in her hand.

“No,” said Bran, “no, don’t,” but they could not hear him, no more than his father had. The woman grabbed the captive by the hair, hooked the sickle around his throat, and slashed. And through the mist of centuries the broken boy could only watch as the man’s feet drummed against the earth…but as his life flowed out of him in a red tide, Brandon Stark could taste the blood. - Bran, ADwD

The pre-born have access to genetic memory that is awakened by narcotics like the spice melange. This is sort of similar to how Bran is given a paste to consume at the end of ADwD, with Bloodraven telling him that the paste will awaken his gifts and wed him to the trees.

"Once you have mastered your gifts, you may look where you will and see what the trees have seen, be it yesterday or last year or a thousand ages past." - Bran, ADwD

In ASoIaF I see the Weirwoods of Westeros as being the equivalent of Dune’s Sand worms of Arrakis. While the Sandworms provide the spice necessary for prescient and genetic memories, the Weirwoods see everything that’s happening over time.

A face had been carved in the trunk of the great tree, its features long and melancholy, the deep-cut eyes red with dried sap and strangely watchful. They were old, those eyes; older than Winterfell itself. They had seen Brandon the Builder set the first stone, if the tales were true; they had watched the castle‘s granite walls rise around them. It was said that the children of the forest had carved the faces in the trees during the dawn centuries before the coming of the First Men across the narrow sea. - Catelyn, AGoT

“I have an uncle Brynden,” Bran said. “He’s my mother’s uncle, really. Brynden Blackfish, he’s called.” “Your uncle may have been named for me. Some are, still. Not so many as before. Men forget. Only the trees remember.” - Bran, ADwD

"A reader lives a thousand lives before he dies," said Jojen. "The man who never reads lives only one. The singers of the forest had no books. No ink, no parchment, no written language. Instead they had the trees, and the weirwoods above all. When they died, they went into the wood, into leaf and limb and root, and the trees remembered. All their songs and spells, their histories and prayers, everything they knew about this world. The singers believe that they are the old gods. When singers die they become part of that godhood - Bran, ADwD

Leaf touched his hand. "The trees will teach you. The trees remember." - Bran, ADwD

 “I have my own ghosts, Bran. A brother that I loved, a brother that I hated, a woman I desired. Through the trees, I see them still, but no word of mine has ever reached them. The past remains the past.” - Bran, ADwD

I have watched you for a long time, watched you with a thousand eyes and one. I saw your birth, and that of your lord father before you. I saw your first step, heard your first word, was part of your first dream. I was watching when you fell. And now you are come to me at last, Brandon Stark, though the hour is late.” - Bran, ADWD

This is an interesting quote when we think of wargs, skinchangers and greenseers:

It was the Singers who taught the First Men to send messages by raven… but in those days, the birds would speak the words. The trees remember, but men forget, and so now they write the messages on parchment and tie them round the feet of birds who have never shared their skin.”- Bran, ADWD

to connect to Leto II becoming a symbiote with the sandworm.

The knowledge from those uncounted lifetimes which blended themselves within him provided the certainty through which he chose the precise adjustments, staving off the death from an overdose which would engulf him if he relaxed his watchfulness for only a heartbeat. And at the same time he blended himself with the sandtrout, feeding on it, feeding it, learning it ... He located another, placed it over the first one ... Their cilia locked and they became a single membrane which enclosed him to the elbow ... This was no longer sandtrout; it was tougher, stronger. And it would grow stronger and stronger ... With a terrible singleness of concentration he achieved the union of his new skin with his body, preventing rejection ... They were all over his body now. He could feel the pulse of his blood against the living membrane ... My skin is not my own. - Leto II, Children of Dune

And just like Leto II slowly understands what needs to be done and goes on a quest to Jacurutu , Bran is slowly drawn towards the weirwoods.

Bran had always liked the godswood, even before, but of late he found himself drawn to it more and more. Even the heart tree no longer scared him the way it used to. The deep red eyes carved into the pale trunk still watched him, yet somehow he took comfort from that now. The gods were looking over him, he told himself; the old gods, gods of the Starks and the First Men and the children of the forest, his father’s gods. He felt safe in their sight, and the deep silence of the trees helped him think. Bran had been thinking a lot since his fall; thinking, and dreaming, and talking with the gods.- Bran, ACOK

and goes on a quest beyond the wall. Of note is that characters think that Leto II is dead when he goes off into the desert and characters think that Bran is dead when he goes off beyond the wall into the snow.

There’s also Bran’s parallels to the mythological Fisher King and being connected to the land.

So long as those remained, Winterfell remained. It was not dead, just broken. Like me, he thought. I'm not dead either. -Bran, ACoK

I have already talked about Bran’s parallels to Rand al’Thor traveling through the glass columns of Rhuidean to see and understand the past.

There is also Leto II Atreides’ relationship with is twin sister Ghanima. Aspects of this in the story that could be transferred to Jon and Arya in ASoIaF. Or even Bran and Arya. Bran does compare Meera to Arya. Ned does say that Arya will marry a king.

Leto and Ghanima are extremely close and look very similar (Jon/Arya). They end up marrying for dynastic reasons (Also of note here that the Bene Gesserit considers mating the twins for breeding purposes - similar to the Valyrians marrying amongst themselves to control their dragons).

“This  is the way it will always be with us. We'll stand thus when we are married.  Back to back, each looking outward from the other to protect the one thing  which we have always been”  - Children of Dune

Leto and Ghanima is a sexless marriage and there is no actual incest, but GRRM has no such issues. There’s lots of incestual sex and marriage in ASoIaF.

In all three series, Dune, WOT and ASoIaF, the past and memories of yore prove to be necessary to solve a problem in the current age. In Dune with Leto and genetic memory, in WOT with Rand and prophecies/glass columns and in ASoIaF with Bran and the Weirwood trees.

Both Leto and Bran are prescient - they can see past and future.

"My brother has the greensight. He dreams things that haven't happened, but sometimes they do." - Bran, ACoK

There are all these theories of Time traveling Bran. We know he has influenced the past already with Hodor. There are theories about everything in ASoIaF being influenced and controlled by Bran. That he is talking to Arya, Jon, Theon through the Weirwoods, that he set up his own fall from the future etc. But to what end? Why would Bran do all this?

Time traveling is a complex subject with concepts like the temporal paradoxes and causal loops. Essentially, Bran going back and changing events would lock humanity onto a single path he himself creates - the causal loop.

For instance while Paul Atreides, the Muad' Dib, uses prescience several times to get to preferred scenarios, his son realizes that this would bind humanity to a single chosen path. Arrakis becomes stagnant and green and heads towards destruction. Without desert, there are no worms, there is no spice and no intergalactic space travel, leading to the eventual destruction of humanity.

Leto II sees infinite paths to choose from and decides on the Golden Path. A path where he sacrifices himself and becomes a worm hybrid and a God Emperor who is immortal, thereby saving humanity from destroying itself.  Removing the ability to see the future frees humanity from prescient control.

“The future remains uncertain and so it should, for it is the canvas upon which we paint our desires. Thus always the human condition faces a beautifully empty canvas. We possess only this moment in which to dedicate ourselves continuously to the sacred presence which we share and create.”   - Children of Dune

Leto II breeds critical thinkers who build a new Arrakis. He becomes a tyrant emperor against whom humanity unites and his death leads to his body becoming thousands of Sand trouts that once again populate Arrakis and produces the spice for space travel and humanity going all over the universe and surviving and preventing stagnation.

In ASoIaF, the Weirwoods seem to the Sandworm parallel. They hold vital memories of Westeros, of the land, of the people who live there, their histories.

The First Men were wary of these trees and started burning and chopping these trees leading to war with the Children of the Forest. This war ends with the Pact and the Children giving the First Men their religion of the Old Gods - the Godswood and Weirwoods with faces carved on them. We see from Bran’s vision that the Starks perform human blood sacrifices to nourish these trees.

The Children and First Men then work together to defeat the inhuman Others. More retreating of Children to forests and beyond the Wall.

The arrival of the Andals leads to more destruction of the Weirwoods. Despite the Children waging war again, they were unsuccessful this time. The worship of the Old Gods is now restricted to just the North

All this history is more or less forgotten. The inhuman Others are seen as snarks and grumpkins, the original purpose of the Wall is forgotten, the Night’s Watch is in bad condition, we have the faith of the Seven in the south, Melisandre’s Lord of Light requiring that weirwoods be burned.

Just like 9/10 year old Leto II had to consume large quantities of Spice Melange and see the future and past to identify the Golden Path and sacrifice himself for the greater good, I think Bran will consume the weirwood paste and integrate with the weirwood in some manner and sacrifice himself for the greater good.

So why does Bran end up as King of Westeros? I think that the attack of the Others will end up with another pact between humanity and the Children of the Forest necessary to save life. And Bran holding the essence of the Weirwood trees in some manner like Leto II and the Sandworm, is chosen as an immortal king keeping watch over all of Westeros.

I doubt it’s any kind of triumphant ending like the show depicted it with jokes on the small council. Rather, it will be sad and poignant. It will be this young child sacrificing himself to a life of loneliness and Godhood for the greater good.

Why must he waste his time listening to old men speak of things he only half understood? Because you’re broken, a voice reminded him. A lord on his cushioned chair might be crippled, but not a knight on his destier. Besides, it was his duty. - Bran, ACoK

“Most of him has gone into the tree … He has lived beyond his mortal span, and yet he lingers. For us, for you, for the realms of men. Only a little strength remains in his flesh. He has a thousand eyes and one, but there is much to watch. One day you will know.”- Bran, ADwD

“Earth and water, soil and stone, oaks and elms and willows, they were here before us all and will still remain when we are gone.”

“So will you,” said Meera. That made Bran sad. What if I don’t want to remain when you are gone? he almost asked.- Bran, ADwD

#Bran Stark #Leto II Atreides #Parallels #ASoIaF #Children of Dune #Dune #GRRM #Frank Herbert

[evax3]

what’s your opinion on parallels ppl like to draw?

like

sansa & lysa vs Sansa & Cat

Jon & rhaehar vs jon & lyanna

Aegon & Rhaehar vs Aegon & Elia

Dany & Aegon I vs Dany & Aerys

Arya & Lyanna vs Arya & Brandon

Sansa & Lyanna vs Sansa & Cersei

Arya & Cat vs Arya & Ned

Thanks so much for stopping by anon and for leaving this really cool question! I’m such a sucker for parallels and symbolism, so I do have a few opinions about these characters (Sansa, Dany and Jon under the cut – no opinions about Aegon) and had a lot of fun writing them down!! ❤️

Arya

What I really liked, and what stood out for me the most (in the show), is that after Arya accepted that she wasn't No One but indeed Arya Stark of Winterfell and came back to Westeros, she very much took on Ned's appearance. She gets dressed and wears her hair the same way Ned does, and shows confidentially that she takes right after her father, where her being the only one in the pack (beside Jon) who inherited the Stark-look (long face, brown hair, and grey eyes) wasn’t something she was actually proud of as a child. 

There are many more parallels between these two (the Baratheon friendship, the dislike of the southern culture and the people at court, their sense of loyalty, …) but what I like most is her understanding of the death sentence and how Arya has internalized Ned's teachings. The one who speaks the sentence must also carry out the killing. It is the opposite of what she is taught by the faceless men and in the end it is also one of the reasons why she realizes that she can never be truly No One. Which, I guess, is why she showed her face to every one of her kills that was on her list of names (at least in the show, but I'm sure it will be similar in the books).

I never thought much about the parallels to Lyanna, except that she also had the typical look from the north and was also much wilder than is expected for a noble-born woman. Probably it is one of the reasons why Ned encourages Arya’s nature instead of scolding her for it. But I think it says more about the relationship Ned had with either his sister and his daughter.

As for Cate I think the most striking parallel is probably their cunning. Which Sansa also inherited from her mother, and Ned unfortunately never managed to master, because he is too driven by honor. As women, all three are underestimated in this world, and yet (and perhaps because of this) manage to outsmart the men around them. For example, when Arya names Jaqen H'ghar as her third name in order to escape from Harrenhal, that was pretty damn clever and something that her mother would have done as well. 

Also, and sadly, their desire for vengeance is something that shapes and drives both characters (referring to Lady Stoneheart in the books) too. Because of that, I'm really curious if they will ever meet (if the next book ever gets published) and if there will be any revenge for Arya against the Frey's at all. 

Sansa

Just as Arya takes on Ned's appearance, Sansa does it with Catelyn's in the later seasons. I think this is particularly interesting because in the beginning, during her time in KL, she copied Cersei's hair and clothes, and later she copied Margaery’s. It shows her role models at each stage and it's particularly striking that at the end she takes on her mother's look, just as Cersei adapts that of her father Tywin. 

Even if the comparison between Arya and Lyanna is drawn much more often, I always found that Sansa and her aunt have much more parallels. The beauty of the two is something that is often highlighted in the story, emphasized, for example, as Rhaegar names Lyanna the queen of love and beauty at the tourney at Harrenhal, similar to Loras giving Sansa a rose at the Hand's tourney. I suspect that for both women this circumstance has led to their intelligence and other abilities being greatly underestimated, if not overlooked, in their very male-dominated world. 

Fortunately, Sansa has the chance to evolve into self-empowerment, which I think is the main focus of her journey, whereas Lyanna died way too early to achieve that. She was forced to marry a man she didn't want (Robert), (as was Sansa btw), so Lyanna saw the only way to prevent that in running away with Rhaegar. And I can imagine that early Sansa, the little romantic that she is, would have made a similar decision. 

I don't like that many say Sansa acts like Cersei in the later seasons because she admires her. I don't think that's the case at all. Cersei only acts out of self-interest (and sometimes, especially in the books, quite stupidly). Sansa, on the other hand, does what is right for her people. She combines her mother's strength with her father's understanding of the Northerners. 

She is cunning as Cate, which is not a bad quality per se, and develops an understanding when someone tries to manipulate her. At the same time, she always has the well-being of her people in focus, which Cersei definitely doesn’t. Which is why I think Sansa is a good queen and is just right to take Robb's place (the obvious choice if she were a man) and Cersei is absolutely terrible at her job.

Jon

I have to say, for Jon it’s almost the hardest to give an accurate answer, because the character (especially in the later seasons) differs a lot between book and show.  Regarding the show, I would say that Jon doesn’t have much in common with his birth parents, because he really is the reincarnation of Ned, the honorable fool, as he calls himself. Always trying to do the right thing, even if it goes against his heart’s desire.  

Rhaegar, on the other hand, does exactly the opposite in the plot for which we know him best. And even if his relationship with Lyanna is often categorized as incredibly romantic, it is one thing above all: selfish. Show!Jon couldn't be more the opposite.

Jon is a good leader, as Rhaegar was, or at least is praised to be. Both have melancholic tendencies, and at least book!Jon, has a tendency to sarcasm (at least in his thoughts) where it is said about Rhaegar , he often had an ironic undertone in his voice (according to Jaime)

Rhaegar is musical, interested in the fine arts, Jon doesn't really show interest in that. What they do have in common is a belief in something that is more than what the eye perceives. For Rhaegar this means believing in prophecies and such things, and Jon is not atheistic either, even if he lives out his beliefs in the Old Gods less than some other characters. Both of them are highly valued by their followers and I think also for both of them this is a quality that shapes their character a lot. 

Still, I have to say that for me the background of Rhaegar and Lyanna's relationship, the consequences especially for Elia and her children, but also for the whole country will always be in the spotlight.  

I've already read several metas that say book!Jon takes more after his birth father because his motives and actions are also less moral (e.g. only giving food to the people of the Free Folk who are willing to fight for the Night's Watch – a huge difference to the show version). Still, I would say Jon is more pragmatic than selfish, another area where Rhaegar would have needed to catch up if he’d been given the chance.

Daenerys

Whereas it was more difficult for me to think about Rhaegar's positive qualities in relation to Jon, I have to say that it was easier for me in relation to Dany. This might be because Daenerys is so frequently compared to Rhaegar as a compliment. Not only in her looks, but also with her intelligence, her determination and in the love that her people have for her. Ser Barristan calls him determined, deliberate, dutiful, and single-minded, all positive qualities that also apply to Dany.

As for Aerys, it's also hard to draw parallels. As I said in another post, I think the Targaryen madness is not really madness (being crazy) but more an obsession, whether it's about religion, dragons, or with Dany, her desire to liberate her people. What we know about Aerys, however, shows that he was indeed sick, paranoid, after his captivity. That is something different and not something I see or suspect with Dany. 

What I have found, though, are explanations about the young Aerys, which at some points apply to her:

In his youth, while not being the most intelligent, nor the most diligent of princes, he was described as having an undeniable charm. He was generous, handsome and resolute, although somewhat quick to anger. 

In the same paragraph, however, it is said that he was vain, proud, and fickle, qualities that made him easy prey for sycophants and sycophants. While Dany is proud, she quickly develops over the course of the story into a person who sees through the manipulation attempts of those around her and is clever enough to avoid them. 

There might be a possibility that through a traumatic experience (like for Viserys selling his mother's crown) her obsession finally drives her to take more drastic measures to achieve her goal. However, I think it's unlikely that Dany actually drifts into absolute madness like her father and burns down an entire city without thinking. She is much too reflective for that. Should she actually go completely ‘Fire and Blood’, then I think it will be a very conscious decision, rather than an impulsive one.

#Arya Stark #Sansa Stark #Jon Snow #daenerys targaryen #parallels #parents and role models #ASoIaF #got meta #asks and answers

[toas-tea]

Some more stuff from Fire Cannot Kill A Dragon on Dany’s retconned fate

Found an excerpt from the book that basically adds more fuel to the fire and how the sudden twist on Dany’s character blindsided pretty much the majority.

Over the years, producers sometimes gave Clarke notes about how to play a moment, nudging the character toward her tyrannical destiny. (tyrannical destiny? LMAO.)

Emilia Clarke: There was a number of times I was like, “Why are you giving me that note?” While I am quite consistently a “How can I help?” kind of person, there were a few moments where I was like, “Don’t tell me what to do with my girl. I know what to do!” It’s like Daenerys’s calling card became cold expressionlessness. I always wanted to infuse that with some humanity because no one’s consistently that. I would sometimes fight back a little: “I get that she has to be steely and unforgiving and a powerful force. But in this moment she’s also a goddamn human being. So I’m going to give you that and I really pray that you take that in the edit.”

Many others on the creative team likewise didn’t have any idea that Daenerys was headed for such a dark fate.

Alex Graves (director): I actually did not know we were telling the story of Daenerys going the way of her ancestors. I thought we were telling the story of her not doing that.

Because, of course, there was good in Daenerys too. There were acts of benevolence and restraint. Her hatred of slavery was genuine and unselfish. Daenerys was a character who always preferred to do the right thing - so long as doing the right thing didn’t entirely thwart her own ambition or undermine her perceived authority to rule. When Daenerys bumped against such conflicts, it was her advisors who typically pushed her toward the moral choice, and they had to make pragmatic arguments to explain why doing the right thing was also better for Daenerys. Whereas Jon Snow always did the right thing, often foolishly regardless of consequence.

Emilia Clarke: I genuinely did this, and it’s fucking embarrassing and I’m going to admit it to you: I called my mom and said, “I read the scripts and I don’t want to tell you what happens but can you just talk me off this ledge? I just went walking and I’m having a little cry. It really messed me up.” And then I was asking my mom and brother really weird questions, and they were like, “What are you asking us this for? What do you mean, ‘Do you think Daenerys is a good person?’ Why are you asking us that question? Why do you care w hat people think of Daenerys? Are you okay?” And I said: “I’m fine! But is there anything she could do that would make you hate her?”

#emilia clarke #daenerys targaryen #got #lmao bye d&d youre cancelled gtfo this planet #this makes me twice as mad wtf

[dwellordream]

I’ve been reading haunt/hunt and I absolutely love how you wrote Nell and her story as well as how you flesh out all the female characters in your fic! So far chapter 45 probably made me the most emotional that I have a lot of feels about it. I’d love a Director’s Commentary and your thoughts writing it, especially the dream Nell has about Bethany and the whole grief and rage and pain that comes with it. Also, Walda’s side during her conversation with Nell would be interesting.. thank you!

thank you! I really dreaded all of Nell’s chapters at the Twins because I’d already gotten some backlash over the plot that culminated with Robb’s ‘death’ and her ending up a captive, and I figured frustration was just going to build the longer I spent writing Nell basically treading water at the Twins trying to figure out how she was going to escape. ultimately I’m pleased with how these chapters turned out but at the time I was always a bit anxious and tense when writing and posting them, because I was worried it was just going to be people in the comments going ‘this sucks. why am I reading this, again?’ (not that there isn’t room for criticism of those plot points, I think the pacing of Haunt/Hunt is a bit janky overall, but... not all that much I can do about that at this point haha) I knew the major setpiece of the chapter would be the sept at the Twins, the same one where Edmure and Roslin were just married, the same one that at the Freys presumably pray in... septs are always foreign places for Nell because she wasn’t brought up in that faith, never had a septa, and there was never a sept at the Dreadfort or Barrowton.  the obvious contrast here is that the sept is a holy place but it’s also at the site of a massive betrayal, and in the midst of this service Nell is plotting and scheming. there’s also the fact that this takes place shortly after Joffrey’s death, and so the Freys are mourning one boy-king after having just slaughtered another. Nell is so shocked and in grief that she can’t even summon up much triumph at Joffrey’s death, as she acknowledges that they will just crown Tommen instead, who is just a child being manipulated by the adults around him. I think it also highlights a main point of the fic- Haunt/Hunt is not a retelling of the entire ASOIAF story, it’s just narrowly focused on the North and the prominent characters there. I feel bad sometimes because I sometimes think readers are expecting me to suddenly pivot to characters like Dany or Cersei or the Martells, and while obviously their actions have consequences for everyone in Westeros, they’re not really the focus here. finally we get to the convo between Fat Walda and Nell. Walda is obviously very wary of Nell, given recent events and the fact that she’s married to Nell’s father. Nell sees Walda dressed in Bolton colors and thinks about how she used to take such pride in her house, and how when she first met Robb she was pretty snotty and felt him childish and beneath her. she feels horrific guilt over even being married to Robb in the first place, wondering if he’d married someone else he might still be alive and winning the war. she also feels so lost without the one person in her life besides Dana who she felt like really chose her and loved her in spite of her flaws.  Nell and Robb’s love story is really crucial to the story as a whole and it obviously still plays a major role even after he’s dead.  we then flash back to Walda, who, despite everything that’s happened and her torn loyalties, does genuinely sympathize with Nell and promises to keep Lysara safe. Nell is less than impressed with this, but does warn Walda about Ramsay- although it’s not just from concern for Walda, but fear for Lysara’s safety. she also warns Walda that Roose loves no one and nothing but himself, and whether he treats her well as his wife or not, he can’t be relied upon to keep her safe from Ramsay. Walda does, to her credit, take Nell seriously, and reveals her pregnancy, while confessing that Roose hasn’t, in her opinion, been all that cruel to her, adding that he is a much finer match than she could have ever hoped for as a Frey. many people acknowledge that canonically Walda seems quite pleased with Roose as a husband, praising him in her letters and seeming eager to have children with him and rule the Dreadfort. I wanted to keep some of that while acknowledging that, well, this Walda was also friends with his daughter... who’s just been betrayed and imprisoned and had her husband murdered... and is about to have her daughter taken from her.  Roose isn’t a good or kind person and I think Walda recognizes that while at the same time feeling that, well, he may be a murderer and a rapist and a traitor, but he’s not constantly bullying and insulting her, he doesn’t beat her, and any children she has with him will have a claim to the at-present most powerful house in the North. so is she in love with him? no. but she is used to having to be very pragmatic, given her upbringing. jumping to the dream sequence (actually the last time we’ve seen Bethany in a dream in this fic, I believe) it’s kind of a call to arms? it’s just the culmination of all Nell’s rage and pain and sorrow, triggered by the new loss of her daughter. she dreams she is back in her mother’s bedchambers in the Dreadfort, watching her waste away from illness, and for the first time she really goes off on dream!Bethany, voicing the pain and fury she still feels at being left motherless. to have Bethany die after promising Nell that they’d be happy and go live with her aunt if Roose died in the Greyjoy Rebellion was especially brutal for her. Bethany apologizes to her- something that never happened in real life, as Nell never had any adults apologize to her for her upbringing or the trauma she experienced- and encourages Nell to keep fighting and not give up, pointing out that she tried to teach her to be strong and determined, even in the face of evil.  to be honest, “I died for nothing, aye,” Bethany acknowledges faintly, too shrouded in smoke to be visible clearly to Nell now, although her voice is longer than before. “Yet before I died I lived for you. I lived for a child I thought could be more than the sum of all my rage and pain and regret. A child I thought could grow into a woman who might do things I had only dreamed of. And I have been wrong on many counts, my Nell, but never that one.”  is one of my favorite parts of the entire fic. I think the ‘oh, *insert character* died for nothing’ or ‘the moral of the story is the world sucks and kindness is weakness’ is something that gets thrown around a lot in the ASOIAF fandom, maybe due to the influence of the TV show, maybe not. but I really disagree with that. for all the horrible things that happen in the series I think the ending will be one of hope, not defeat or ‘accepting the world as it is’. change can happen and it can be positive, and not all sacrifices are in vain. Ned Stark didn’t ‘die for nothing’- he died to save Sansa’s life and he taught his children really important things about respect for others and keeping your promises and protecting those weaker than you. we see his influence in Robb always trying to do what’s best for his people, Sansa being kind to others in spite of her suffering, Arya still defending the weak even at risk to herself, Bran trying to use his powers for good, Jon always trying to make the hard but fair decision at the Wall. they may not always make the right choices and they do fail, frequently, but the point is to try, not to always be victorious.  in the same token, Robb didn’t ‘die for nothing’ in this fic- he dies fighting a war to return home and help his people, he dies with Nell and Lysara’s names on his lips, he dies always trying to protect the ones he loves, and I think that’s the actual point, not that he was ‘stupid’ or that Roose ‘outplayed him’. life isn’t a game and it’s not supposed to be treated as such. what matters is what Robb did while he was alive, the people he helped and the lives he changed. Nell is 100% a better person for her relationship with him and the growth she went through as she matured and took on more responsibilities. she is 100% a kinder and more compassionate person because of her relationship with the Starks, and Dana, and her ladies at Riverrun. she had to choose to change and step into her role as queen, but Robb really gave her a lot of confidence in herself and her abilities.  so yeah, I think the overall message of chapter 45 and the fic in general is “it doesn’t matter how you die, it’s how you lived.” Robb’s death doesn’t wipe out everything he did before that. the loss of Lysara doesn’t erase the love Nell feels for her. even when things look dire and life is shitty you can still take it one day at a time and keep striving for something better. Nell has to recognize that while Bethany’s death was painful and tragic and unexpected... she did help shape Nell into the woman she would become and her ultimate wish was not that Nell would be exactly like her, but that Nell would be better than her.

#haunt/hunt #ask #anon #ask game

[killthebxy]

i have so many mixed feelings about the season finale.

so.

many.

mixed.

feelings.

and i don’t really know where to start... so i think i’ll start at the end. and i’ll start by making a separation in my analysis.

1. if we look at s08 ep6 on its own

          i’ve been writing Jon Snow since January 24th, 2017. s07 happened during April-May 2017, if i remember well? which means, some of you who’ve been with me from the start of my blog have watched me watching s07; have watched my reactions and my opinions and my rants. ever since then, i have been very open and very vocal about how much i loathed the idea of Jon as the rightful heir to the Iron Throne, and Jon eventually sitting this throne as king --- those of you who’ve followed me for less time also likely know this very well, because gods know i never shut up about it. so, considering the finale that Jon had... someone might tell me: you must be very happy! and, well... i am very happy. i was not made to see Jon sitting the throne. i was not made to see everyone call him Agony and hail him and glorify him. i got to see him wearing his black cloak again and returned to where he belongs --- away from thrones and kings and queens, away from the ungrateful northern lords, making peace with the free folk. hell, i even got to see him hugging Ghost, imagine. who would have thought, Jon Snow loves his soulmate more than his own life. sarcasm aside... yesterday, i told a couple of you that i had two final, very little requests of ep6: i wanted to see Jon crying (because i had read the leaks, and thus i knew what to expect) and i wanted to see those beautiful curls freed from the bun. and i got this. i got to see, FINALLY, after weeks, Jon Snow and not Agony Targaryen. loyal to the end, struggling with the cruel decision he had to make, quoting master Aemon, accepting his fate, doing his duty no matter the cost --- as he once did with Ygritte. if we look at this episode only, i got everything i ever hoped for, and for this i am grateful. and yet...

2. we cannot look at s08 ep6 on its own

          and this is where it all begins and ends. because ep6 does not exist on its own. does not exist in a void. nothing of what happened came out of spontaneous generation. Dany wasn’t suddenly the mad queen. Tyrion wasn’t suddenly clever again. Grey Worm wasn’t suddenly thirsty for blood and revenge. Jon Snow wasn’t suddenly Jon Snow and not Agony Targaryen. and this is why everything in this season is irredeemable to me, no matter how much i loved Jon’s finale if we look at it objectively and pragmatically.

          do you know why i love George’s writing so much? it’s not for the prose --- very honestly, 90% of the persons i roleplay with write better than him. it’s not completely for the storyline, either, though it is amazing --- very honestly, some of the book chapters are boring and long and fillers and with descriptions and details that no one cares about. i love George’s writing, however, for his absolutely brilliant talent to manage such a vast universe. he’s got so many major characters, thrice as many minor characters, even more characters that only appear at the end of the books, listed as part of the great houses and such. the experience of reading A Song of Ice and Fire, and least for me, was that --- you get to a point you lose track of what’s going on, exactly because there is SO MUCH going on. so many characters, so many stories, so many destinies. and i remember myself often asking: how the hell will some of this make sense in the end, this is huge and so complex. and then... then you get to A Dance with Dragons... and, fuck, it does make sense. ALL of it starts tying together. all the details, all the little plot twists, all the symbolism, all the foreshadowing --- it all comes around and ties together, it all makes sense. all these many, many parts come together in a whole --- and this is why i praise George so much. this is why i admire his writing so much. because, even if i am upset with some choices, it all makes sense. it all is fluid, coherent, so pleasing to read and to follow and so goddamn captivating.

          and then you look at s07 and especially s08... and you find nothing of this. where George does kill a lot of characters, he keeps the bulk of them and considers all of them --- and D&D simply kill them all off for not having any better use for them. where George writes intricate, complex, layered characters and 99% of them are purely made of grey areas and grey morals and so very few are completely good or completely evil --- and D&D turned them completely flat, shallow, predictable, cliché, borderline boring if not downright so. where George named this the world of ice and fire and makes it so that the big, overarching theme is flawed, very different humans trying to gather together to survive the common, legendary foe --- D&D were done with the Long Night in like 40 minutes, and the only thing dark about it was the terrible lighting that makes iconing ep3 a nightmare. and i could go on, but i think i’ve made my point. D&D haven’t the 10th of George’s talent --- and, hey, i can accept this. -i- don’t have the 10th of George’s talent for sure, and very few people in this world have the 10th of George’s talent when it comes to tying together such a huge, deep, complex plot. and i can live with this. i could live with predictable, cliché writing in s07, and still be able to enjoy it at least half the time. i wasn’t happy, but i was content.

          but s08? well. s08, the way i see it, was simply two things: 1) D&D trying to be George and trying to go for plot twists and trying to make a bittersweet ending of some sort... and then 2) D&D realizing they are as far from George as the Earth is from Pluto, and going fuck it we’ll resolve everything based on shock value. and i wish i was joking or exaggerating or being sarcastic --- but they have stated this themselves and are proud of it, apparently. you only have to google it and you’ll easily find it. these two gentlemen looked at, say, Daenerys, and asked themselves: we want her to be the mad queen in the end, what can we do to lead to this outcome? and they did it. it’s as simple and as linear as this. and literally everything and everyone, logic and common sense included, gets thrown under the rubble for the sake of making this happen. and this is why i have zero respect and zero credits for them, at the end of all things, even if i did love Jon’s finale when i look at it isolated from everything else.

because.

          yes, Jon Snow, the honorable man with a good, kind, merciful heart who does whatever needs to be done for the sake of his people, no matter the toll it takes on himself. check, this is the Jon i know and love. Jon Snow, not a glorified savior who succeeds where everyone else fails, not Azor Ahai reborn, but a tool, an instrument used to bring salvation --- Lightbringer itself. check, this is the Jon i know and love. Jon Snow, who was never destined for a happy ending, carrying the guilt and suffering the consequences of his decisions. check, this is the Jon i know and love. but what happened before this? what about everything that led him to this? 

          book!Jon and show!Jon were always different, this isn’t a new thing. even during seasons 1-5, where the show followed the book canon for the most part (at least in Jon’s case), they were already different. show!Jon has a lot more personal agency, in that he chooses to do a lot of the things he does --- while book!Jon tends to get sucked into the whole ordeal, and he tries to navigate it as well as he can. for an example: show!Jon offered himself to go with Qhorin Halfhand, book!Jon was chosen by Qhorin and caught by surprise and even lord commander Mormont was like ????. another example: show!Jon sends Grenn to hold the gate against Mag the Mighty and brings on himself the responsibility of commanding the Wall during the attack, book!Jon gets command imposed on him by Donal Noye and then again in the morning by master Aemon. again, i could go on and on, but i have made my point. regarding all this, while i do prefer book!Jon, i never hated show!Jon. some parts, even, like the battle at Hardhome, i honestly loved and i wish i could get that POV in the books.

          now, s06... post-revival. this is where the books-show rift happens for good, as they ran out of source material. very sincerely, i did not watch s06 as a whole --- i only watched Jon’s scenes. so if you ask me what was going on otherwise, i don’t know and i don’t really regret this choice. s06 Jon is a sort of limbo for me, because i cannot say if his portrayal was good or bad. clearly, this is when he starts making stupid decisions and being far more reckless, but... as mentioned, this is post-revival. this is a man who was stabbed in the heart by his own sworn brothers, who got wrenched back out of the grave, who immediately got told: hey you gotta keep fighting and you gotta start by going and reclaiming Winterfell and saving your little brother. given this context, can i judge him for not being himself? i can’t and i never did, which is why i accepted s06 (again, re: Jon Snow only) for what it was. and i was content with it, even if the revelation of his parentage for show!canon did not impress me.

          s07. this coincided with the birth and infancy of my blog, and honestly i was so excited to get to share this experience with everyone --- and this much was absolutely amazing. i was writing my Master’s thesis back then and i had a lot more free time, so i was able to stay up late and watch it live... and, boy, was that a ride. i had so much fun back then, and all of it thanks to my beautiful followers and friends who were there to live through this with me. but as far as the season itself went... yeah, that was the beginning of the end. because, unlike s06, Jon didn’t have excuses anymore to be stupid and reckless. and yet he still was. he still just grabbed a bunch of sturdy men and ventured into the fucking Frostfangs in the middle of winter without even bringing 1 (one) horse, just to name the most blatant of stupid examples. and the whole glorified superhero savior vibe? my good beans, i wrote a meta with 4000+ words to justify why that frozen lake scene was total bullshit and why Jon did die his second death there --- exactly out of spite for how much i hated it. how much i hated that D&D were turning the boy i love into a commercial protagonist who does the impossible and suffers no consequences and gets to have everyone else’s portrayal tossed under the wreck for the sake of glorifying him further. Rickon was already a plot device, Benjen Stark was a plot device, and i had the sinking feeling it would not stop there. s07 had bad and lazy writing, was terribly rushed and with very little character development, was pointing towards a very obvious and very cliché ending: Jon & Dany, the power couple, sitting the throne, having a baby, living happily ever after.

          and today... today i ask myself: how can you fuck up a plot so much, to the point where i wish i was made to see this cliché, predictable ending instead? i spent a year and a half whining about how much i did not want to see Jon sitting the throne... only to now look at the finale and be like --- sweet summer child, what did you know of fear. because, hey, yes, Jon was reborn from his ashes and Agony was cast aside and he got exactly the endgame i prayed for --- but at what cost? to get here, i had to see ALL the northern lords and half his family spitting on him for his decision to bend the knee. to get here, i had to see him literally say: it’s true, my name is Aegon Targayen. to get here, i had to see him avoiding Dany and not having the balls to talk to her about it until the very last moment. i had to see him plan the defenses of Winterfell like a complete stupid idiot who has no clue what he is doing. i had to see him forgetting Ghost is his soulmate. i was even deprived of the thing i love more in Kit’s acting, which is fighting on the ground --- for the sake of an epic dragon battle, yes, but that by rights he should not have survived. i was denied a one-on-one battle with the Night King, no matter who’d win and no matter who’d get to destroy the NK in the end. i got an epic moment of him roaring back at an undead dragon, yes, but what came in the next episodes got me to the point of headcanoning that he died during that moment. i had to see him not even mourn Edd’s death and going for Lyanna Mormont gods know why, who openly questioned and defied him. i had to see him being the by-the-book definition of a douchebag who sits drinking with friends and completely ignoring his girl who’d just lost one of her closest loved ones and was so clearly dissociating throughout that entire feast. i had to see him being described as so stupid that he obviously bent the knee for love and Dany was going to play him like a fiddle. i had to see him practically being made to choose between his family and the girl he loves. I HAD TO SEE HIM ABANDONING GHOST. i had to see him, again, pull away from Dany when she needed him most --- and, yes, in show!canon it is incest and all that, but you don’t have to fuck or kiss the girl you love to be there for her. i was denied, again, 1 (one) decent fighting scene on the ground because all he did at KL was to cut down a few soldiers with a few basic slashes.

          and, very frankly, what bothers and disgusts me the most out of all of this hellhole... i had to see character after character ruined, completely ruined in their essence, for the sake of stating: hey Jon Snow is a good guy! Rhaegal, who had to be butchered for the sake of triggering Dany and also because Dany and Jon and Tyrion were too stupid to remember Euron’s fleet still existed.  Missandei, who had to be butchered in chains for the sake of triggering Dany. Grey Worm, who had to be metaphorically butchered and turned into a blood-thirsty savage longing for blind revenge for the sake of Agony Targaryen, our lord and savior, being the merciful savior who claims pity for unarmed men. the women of King’s Landing, who had to be raped by northern soldiers, again for the sake of Agony being the good guy who saves one of them. and at the end of the day... Daenerys Targaryen. the little girl who wanted to go home and return to her house with a red door. who was exiled and sold and raped and harassed and humiliated and abused and betrayed and used and objectified. who made terrible choices more than once, yes and i erase none of them, but who made them with a good intention and who paid the price of said choices --- like Jon himself did, like we all, flawed human beings, do. the strong, willful, kind woman who heard Jon’s plea for help and went to save him and his men beyond the Wall and who lost one of her children for it. the queen who wanted to break the wheel and to make this world a better place. the breaker of shackles. Mhysa. she, who was never her father. reduced to this, for the sake of making Jon Snow the good honorable man who does his duty even at expense of his own interest and his own happiness.

          dear Mr. Daniel B. Weiss and dear Mr. David Benioff: do you know since when Jon Snow is a good honorable man who does his duty even at expense of his own interest and his own happiness? since always. since 283 AC. since far, far before you got your incompetent, untalented hands on him. and he never needed to be shown as one --- he was one. without the need to sacrifice 90% of the plot and the characters to make him seem so. he IS so. and this is why i’ll never forgive you, even if you did give me exactly the finale i wanted. because what you did to him, in order to bring him here? honestly, you deserve no redemption. ever. and if there is one thing that makes me extremely, utterly, earnestly happy today, it is that never again you will touch him. Jon Snow belongs to George, and he belongs to me, and he belongs to every beautiful talented roleplayer who writes him, and he belongs to every beautiful talented roleplayer who writes muses who interact with him. never to you, again. and for this i thank the old gods of the forest. today, Jon Snow is finally at rest. and, as of today, i can finally stop writing out of spite --- and return to writing because i love this boy.

#GOT spoilers #anti GOT #long post #「ᵐᵉᵗᵃ ᵗᵃᵍ」ᵗʰᵉ ᶜʳᵒʷ ᶤˢ ᵗʰᵉ ʳᵃᵛᵉᶰ'ˢ ᵖᵒᵒʳ ᶜᵒᵘˢᶤᶰ #i tried my best to be concise #...and i clearly failed #and i tried my best to make sense and to put my thoughts into words clearly #but guys #i am all over the place #so if anyone wants to ask questions #would like me to better explain/explore some topic in particular #please feel free to send me asks about it! #and/or IMs #i will possibly be slow in replying but i will definitely get to everything <3

[batmansymbol]

a compleat list of what i want to happen in GoT season 8.

i’m not going to call them “predictions” or “theories” because i really don’t think most of them will happen, but here, ranked in order of how important they are to me, are the elements i would find most satisfying to see in season 8!

(also, sorry for not putting this under a readmore, but on the impossible chance that any of this does come true i want hard solid time-stamped proof that i guessed it. cheers lol)

jaime and brienne finish falling in love. i think this remains one of the most emotionally potent subplots of the show, simply because it hasn’t had that much airtime since the plotting started to slip. brienne represents everything that jaime has developed toward: a sense of reclaimed honor in the face of a disgraced past, plus friendship, trust, and attraction outside the lannister family. in kind, jaime represents everything that brienne has needed to grow: from trusting him, she’s developed a more complex sense of morality than her original black-and-white honorable-and-dishonorable views.

that said, i don’t think it makes much sense for them to have anything approaching a happy ending. i'm hoping for this much: brienne will redeem jaime in the eyes of the North with the revelation of why he killed the mad king. he’ll realize how much their relationship means to him, they’ll have a brief time together, and he’ll die tragically in her arms.

sansa stark takes the iron throne (or becomes Queen in the North). it’s always been my opinion that sansa stark operates as an audience surrogate. the series was originally written as a kind of counterpoint to traditional fantasies, in which plot armor rules the day, good wins over evil, and characters cleave toward archetypes. i’m sure all the dudes people who hated sansa stark at the beginning would hate to think this, but we were her: sansa started out believing in fantastical songs and stories, believing that chivalry was a protective force. if you were shocked by ned’s death or by the red wedding, congratulations! you believed in the same kind of literary tradition that sansa did back then. you believed that people were safe because they were good or important.

since then, sansa has undergone the same disillusionment and transformation that we have as an audience. we’ve grown up alongside her, learned how this world operates as she does. and yet, even while she’s learned to play the game, out-manipulating an increasingly impressive list of players (i have all sorts of problems with how the littlefinger plot was played, but the broad strokes are there and i’m sure it’ll be better in the books), she’s still maintained a sense of goodness. while we all tense up in anticipation for a great battle, sansa is thinking about the smallfolk starving. she has never sought power, but in power, has been fair, pragmatic, and effective. “if i am ever a queen,” she thinks in A Clash of Kings, “i’ll make them love me.” that still rings true.

i don’t think sansa deserves the throne because of her suffering (i’m not sure anyone deserves it). but i’m convinced she would be the best candidate because she’s displayed innate intelligence and adaptability, and especially because of how wonderfully her narrative operates on a meta level.

daenerys goes dark, resulting in jon’s death. i think it would be some great plotting for this underdog Great Emancipator character to turn out to be an ultimate antagonist (therefore underscoring the issues with the conqueror & savior elements in her narrative). dany is obsessed with loyalty. it’s helped her survive, but i think when jon reveals his parentage, there’s no way she’ll see that as anything but an immediate and existential threat.

i think it would be satisfying if daenerys turns out to be azor ahai, the prince/ss who was promised, and destroys the Night King. i say this because i think adding this title to her long list could prove an important tipping point: if dany defeats the night king, there’s no way anyone is ever convincing her to give up or even share the throne. the belief that she was born to be the savior of Westeros is now bulletproof, and importantly, if she is azor ahai, Melisandre and the followers of the Lord of Light would now be at her back (eta: forever), reinforcing her belief that she is essentially a god. this is a crew who really loves burning people and hero worship.

i don’t think it would make sense for dany to kill jon, but i’m imagining that during battle, she has the chance to save his life and makes the ultimate and horrible choice not to, eliminating her major challenger to the throne. separately, but similarly: i think if word about gendry’s parentage gets out, daenerys would have no qualms whatsoever about killing him, since he’s the child of the Usurper. (related: if arya sees either of these deaths happen, there goes her uneasy neutrality wrt daenerys. i think it could be kind of thrilling for dany’s name to be last on arya’s list, but if this happens, arya isn’t making it out alive.)

in conclusion: this leaves us with a North ever more hostile to daenerys’s reign and cersei still preparing to stage her final play for the throne. depending on how the night king ... uh, works, the army of the dead could still be in play, too.

arya kills cersei wearing jaime’s face. does this count as fulfilling the valonqar prophecy? i think so? idk: i used to think jaime had to kill cersei himself for it to feel satisfying, but his leaving king’s landing at the end of last season was played so dramatically that i don’t think that’s necessary anymore.

i imagine cersei killing arya while this happens. i think there’d be something poetic in cersei stabbing "jaime” while he throttles her, and thinking all the usual cersei thoughts about how they do everything together, they were born together and lived together and now it’s time to die together, etc.—only for arya to reveal that it’s her, a stark, and jaime actually already died, having moved on from cersei’s influence in the arms of a woman who made him a better man.

some other scattered hopes:

you know, the more i think about it, the more i like the Tyrion Targaryen theory. there’s an awful lot of literal language in Tywin’s show dialogue (”i raised you as my son,” “you’re no son of mine,” etc.) that makes me think the showrunners were writing toward something they wanted people to rewatch with new ears.

theon dies in a final redeeming moment of bravery, as his throughline so far has been about how craven he is

sandor wins cleganebowl. damn it, i want that crotchety old fucker to make it out of this.

euron dissolves into obscurity. ugh, euron

if the 7 kingdoms remain divided at the end, gendry takes the southern throne, with arya on his kingsguard. this is way too optimistic and won’t happen, but it makes me happy to think about.

you’ll notice i haven’t said one (1) word about bran stark......... i am sorry to confess that i can see no satisfying way to resolve absolutely anything pertaining to bran stark, as i haven’t been satisfied with anything that’s happened in his storyline since The Door.

that said, i also am pretty certain that bran will turn out to be sort of the key to the whole thing, which is tragic as i Just Don’t Care about anything he does, and so i can’t waste any energy theorizing about what might happen to or with him.

if u have any bran theories, feel free to send them to me... or tack them on here... except the night king one, i’ve read all about that already

annnnnd that’s all i’ve been thinking about for the past two months. cheers!

#long post #asoiaf #got #got spoilers #asoiaf spoilers #i had an actual nightmare that sansa stark died last night. i think those shitheads are gonna do it #personal #essay #highly important text posts

[thechelby]

In Defense of Jaime Lannister

Okay, I would like to preface this by saying I’m not happy with Jaime’s actions these last 2 episodes, in fact I hate it.  I hate what he was doing.  I hate that he hurt Brienne, it’s wounded my soul.  That being said, I don’t think his character arc was assassinated.  I think at the root here is the issue that the audience has been under the impression that his arc is redemption based, and it’s not.  But let’s back up a second and break it down. The love of his life. Jaime has loved Cersei for over 40 years, and I feel like people are kind of ignoring that fact.  Their love was gross, and abusive on both sides, but that didn’t stop them from loving each other (or if you wanna go with what D&D said, “addicted”, but more on that later). Tyrion said it this season, “She never fooled you. You always knew exactly who she was and you loved her anyway.”  A large part of Jaime’s identity is in direct relation to Cersei.  He struggles with himself when he’s away from her. Any decision we’ve seen Jaime make (for himself, not necessarily others), it was always connected to Cersei.  As much as I hate Cersei, and believe me I fuckin hate her, she is absolutely without a doubt the love of Jaime’s life.  I just want to reiterate... FORTY YEARS.  That is simply not something a person gets over over the course of a few months, I’m sorry but it’s not. Now I hear what you’re saying here.  He left her, he abandoned her and her crazy in King’s Landing to go north.  Jaime came to his senses, and then lost all of them again.  As much as Jaime is the stupidest Lannister, he’s not actually stupid, it’s just that there are a lot of intelligent Lannisters, and the bar is pretty high.  Jaime knew what the wight Jon brought to King’s Landing meant.  He knew that literal death was coming, and as he pointed out to Cersei not helping was a no win game.  Either the dead win, march south, and kill them all, or the north wins and kills them instead.  Jaime was doing the right thing, but as happens often he did it for pragmatic reasons not morality. Jaime told the northern council that he promised to fight for the living and that he intended to keep that promise, which is technically true.  But also consider that he wasn’t going to mention to Sansa, Jon, Dany, and the rest of the northern folk that the living for him very much includes Cersei and their unborn child.  Even during his trial, when Sansa brought up Jaime’s cruel past, Jaime came back with “What I did, I did for my family.  I’d do it all again.”  He is fighting for them, “nothing else matters.”  He recognizes that he’s done terrible things, and while not exactly proud of them, he doesn’t regret them either.  He fought for his family, and was still fighting for them. The knight of his life. Poor Brienne.  I love the fuck outta that big woman.  And I do want to note here, that Jaime did/does love Brienne.  It’s true.  Keep in mind though that in a weird way they are almost foils of each other.  Brienne was a knight in every way except in name (until this season of course).  Loyalty, bravery, honor, doing that which is “good”, Brienne was always the absolute epitome of what a knight should be.  Jaime Lannister has been self serving, cruel to those who stand in his way, and arrogant.  He was a knight by title, but his moral code differs from what we think of when we think of knights and comes a bit closer to being a kind of thug (for lack of a better word).  Brienne represented the knight Jaime could have been had he made more consistently honorable choices.  Loving Brienne, in a way, was Jaime loving who he never became.  More than Jaime loved Brienne, he respected the fuck out of her.  She made him want to be a better person.  Made him want to be a true knight.  Made him want to be like her.  But she couldn’t fix him.  She couldn’t fix him, because in the end Jaime didn’t think he deserved to be fixed. What we deserve. Jaime saved a million lives the day he killed King Aerys.  And for the 20 years following, people looked down on him for it.  Kingslayer.  Oathbreaker.  Dishonor.  Ned and Catelyn’s smug faces, everyone in the kingdom’s harsh words.  And for what? Saving a million fucking lives.  Jaime thinks it’s impossible to truly live honorably at this point.  The first time Jaime met Brienne he was talking to Catelyn, “Defend the king, obey the king, obey your father, protect the innocent, defend the weak.  But what if your father despises the king?  What if the King massacres the innocent?  It’s too much.”  Jaime’s noblest deed was the one that marked him for derision.  We later learn from Jaime when he’s speaking to Brienne in that hot ass bath tub that snide remarks over the past 2 decades have really had an impact on Jaime.  He resents what the people of Westeros say about him, and not just that but he’s deeply hurt by it.  And at a certain point, he clearly began playing into what people had said about him.  If you keep calling someone a monster, they’re sure to become one.  Would not-a-monster shove a child out a window?  Would they kill their own family?  Would they threaten to literally punt a baby over castle walls, and then immediately follow it up with and oh yeah also I’ll kill everyone else? It was never a redemption arc. What I’ve heard a lot of people saying is that Jaime’s character arc was destroyed when he left Brienne to return to Cersei.  The flaw with this is presuming that Jaime had a redemption arc. Jaime wanted redemption, but what does that mean?  What act could he do to make up for what he did to Bran?  To countless people over the years he’s killed or shit on?  Does he have any banked karma for saving a million people?  Did he redeem himself when he saved Brienne from being raped?  Because honestly, I think if someone had told Jaime Lannister what the price was for saving her, then he wouldn’t’ve saved her.  What about when he knighted her?  A beautiful act for someone he cares about for sure, but it didn’t take any kind of sacrifice for him to do it.   Jaime’s story isn’t a redemption arc.  It’s a cautionary tale.  Jaime isn’t Boromir from Lord of the Rings.  He doesn’t start off shitty and sacrifice himself for the greater good and redeem himself.  He’s Gollum.  He’s someone consumed by a toxic obsessive love.  Like Gollum and his precious, Jaime’s absolutely addicted to Cersei.  Also like Gollum, he tries, and at times he even tries very hard to overcome that addiction and become a better person.  And those efforts should be commended in his character.  However, much like Gollum dying with his precious Jaime is crushed by the literal weight of the problems their love caused.  Their love is part of why Jon Arryn died, their love is why Bran can’t walk, their love is why Ned Stark died, indirectly why Robb Stark and Catelyn died.  Anyone who died in the War of the Five Kings died for Jaime and Cersei’s addiction to each other.   Jaime doesn’t represent redemption.  Jaime represents the idea that the struggle without is the struggle within.  As much as evil can never be defeated in its entirety in the world, you may also not ever be able to completely defeat it in yourself.  Like Gollum quite literally arguing and fighting with himself in LotR, Jaime often struggled with himself and was never able to overcome his addiction to Cersei.  That’s the nature of addiction and recovery, from the outside it’s very easy to say just don’t do it you stupid gold handed fuck, she’s so obviously evil, what are you even doing?  But if you ever met someone addicted to heroin, or an evil magic ring for 40 years, you’d probably know that chances are low they’ll come out clean on the other side.

#game of thrones #jaime lannister #brienne of tarth #cersei lannister

[liamcreativetech]

The Art Life, and The Art Life with Man’s Search for Meaning

As I watched through The Art Life, I noted down any interesting points or connections I saw to Man’s Search for Meaning. Most of these are just rough ideas and need to be thought about a bit more to make them substantial points.

Cigarettes - Throughout the film Lynch smokes, and he talks about how he started smoking quite young, and how he associated them with ‘The art life’.  In Man’s search for meaning, Frankl also talks about cigarettes. In the camps, cigarettes were mainly used as a currency. Prisoners who volunteered for especially dangerous tasks and survived or capos who were especially vicious towards their fellow prisoners would be rewarded with a pack of cigarettes. These could then be traded for extra food, or maybe a piece of clothing. Having cigarettes to exchange could be the difference between living and not for an inmate at a concentration camp. Cigarettes took on a much greater importance than to be smoked, but Frankl writes “The only exceptions to this were those of us who had lost the will to live and wanted to ‘enjoy’ their last days. Thus , when we saw a comrade smoking his own cigarettes, we knew he had given up faith in his strength to carry on, and, once lost, the will to live seldom returned”. This is less of a direct link and more a common item shown in two vastly different contexts, and illustrates the differences between the two texts more than any links.

Logotherapy does not prescribe meaning or purpose or morals, but facilitates clients finding their own. It aids them , and affords freedom. Meaning is unique to the individual. The freedom given to Lynch as a child may have allowed him to determine, come to know, and become familiar with his own purpose and responsibility as a human being. His mother even made it a point to not allow Lynch colouring books as a child, he would have to create his own artworks and not just colour in the lines of someone else’s picture. This is evident in his prolific creative output, and his overcoming of life’s ‘hows’ with his own ‘why’. His output is unique, intentional, and raw.

In the film Lynch talks about his experiences as a child and growing up. These formative experiences have a clear emotional effect on Lynch, and a few times he can’t bring himself to finish the story. His memories and the feelings tied to them drive his creative output, and like Frankl’s speech to fellow prisoners: “What you have experienced, no power on earth can take from you. Not only our experiences, but all we have done, whatever great thoughts we have had, and all we have suffered all this is not lost, although it is past; we have brought it into being, Having been is also a kind of being, perhaps the surest kind.”, Lynch experiences his memories as a very real influence, not as an unreachable past. They still exist to him, and he says that “I think every time you do something, like a painting or whatever, you go with ideas and sometimes the past can conjure those ideas and color them, even if they’re new ideas, the past colors them.”

Frankl’s maxim for logotherapy is to “Live as if you were living already for the second time, and as if you had acted the first time as wrongly as you are about to act now!” He uses this technique for a group therapy, where he invites clients to not see themselves as living in the present, but instead as 80 year olds on their deathbeds. This shift in perspective of the same situation allows them to see the inherent meaning, or current lack thereof, in their lives. With Frankl’s method in my mind, seeing David Lynch reflecting on his life when he was my age was seeing the reality of Frankl’s hypothetical. As i walked home that afternoon, I thought about how I would look back on the current moment and time in my life at Lynch’s age, and I got a new appreciation for Frankl’s logotherapy perspective and how effective that thought experiment is.

While Frankl talks about ‘meaning’ as man’s purpose or responsibility in life, man can also imbue meaning. Lynch’s art pieces at first appear, at least to me, confoundingly arbitrary and random. But he has created it with careful intention and purpose - giving his works a meaning; each aspect and creative decision a purpose and responsibility to the work as a whole. The aspects of a lynch work are analogous to life as Frankl would describe it; while each seemingly pointless or incomprehensible part seems like a meaningless addition, there is meaning to a painting overall, and therefore each element is also meaningful.

Looking at pieces like ‘I have a radio’, I feel confused and uncomfortable because I don’t know why he has made these creative choices, and what its meaning is, but I know it has one. In logotherapy, there is a concept of ‘super meaning’, on which Frankl comments “What is demanded of man is not, as some existential philosophers teach, to endure the meaninglessness of life, but rather to bear his incapacity to grasp its unconditional meaningfulness in rational terms”

I see David Lynch as someone who has, as Frankl would describe, ‘found their meaning’ in life. Frankl writes that “Ultimately, man should not ask what the meaning of his life is, but rather must recognize that is it he who is asked. In a word, each man is questioned by life; and he can ony to life by answering for his own life; to life he can only respond by being responsible. Thus logotherapy sees in responsibleness the very essence of human existence.”.

When Lynch creates these works, he isn’t in some inspired trance, but fully lucid and rational. He pragmatically crafts abstract nightmare esque pieces, and when his sander slips as he buffs strange clay drips on a board he is annoyed like it was a mundane task. To me, this is because he sees it as a responsibility. He has embodied and realized Frankl’s belief that man has a responsibility to fulfill his individual meaning and purpose. That is the whole idea of ‘the art life’ -  to live your art; for lynch his art is his meaning, and he describes the Art life as, “You drink coffee, smoke cigarettes, and you paint. And that’s it. And maybe, girls come into it a little bit. But basically it’s the incredible happiness of working and living that life.”

Frankl, V. E. (1984). Man's search for meaning: An introduction to logotherapy. New York: Simon & Schuster.

Jon Nguyen, Jason S. and Sabrina S. Sutherland (Producers), & Jon Nguyen, Rick Barnes and Olivia Neergaard-Holm (Directors). (2016) David Lynch: The Art Life [Motion picture]. United States, Denmark: Duck Diver Films.

#CTEC500 #IP02

[notsosilentsister]

Executive Matters

The books start with an execution. We get to know the executed character a bit in the prologue - a nightwatch's man who had a run in with the Others; he has just seen unspeakable horror, he's traumatized, he runs for his life. A sympathetic character with relatable motives. And then Ned beheads him for desertion. Ned's set up as the moral compass of the story. "The man who passes the sentence should swing the sword." We are given to understand that this is harsh world, winter is coming, and sometimes leadership means having the stomach to make the tough choices.

Does Dany's execution of the Tarlys meet Ned's standards? Well, the dragons are her sword, and she's the one who gives the command. In some sense, she does get her own hands dirty. She has pragmatic reasons, just as Ned did. If not bending the knee and languishing in prison is an option, lots of people will take it. It will undoubtedly drag things out, and Dany feels she doesn't have the time. Winter is coming (and the longer these matters take to settle, the more the smallfolk suffers).

Dany's actions here mirror Ned's execution of the deserter, Robb's execution of the Karstarks, most of all probably Stannis' excution of Mance Rayder. (And argueably Jon's execution of Ollie and company; but I guess it's rather his mercy towards the second Karstark and Umber generation we're supposed to remember here). In terms of Westerosi standards, it's par for the course. And yet...

Ned, Robb and Stannis came to bad ends. Dany claims to be different and she clearly isn't. It doesn't necessarily mean she's mad like her dad. But it probably means she isn't the messiah she's styling herself as.

And someone (Tyrion? Varys?) will make her face this, and it will be ugly. But I haven't entirely given up on Dany yet. There's some reckoning ahead for her, but she might still course-correct.

Another person who needs to course-correct, and soon, for pretty much the same reason is Arya. She's totally on Dany's wavelength this episode, giving Sansa hell for not just executing the disgruntled lords talking smack about Jon. Of course Sansa is making contingency plans in case Jon shouldn't return! She'd be a fool not to. Arya's profoundly unfair to hold that against her. And now she lets herself be played by Littlefinger, who clearly intended her to find this letter Sansa wrote way back in King's Landing. Sure, a reasonable person would realize that it was most probably written under duress. But right now, Arya's not in a reasonable mood. At least Littlefinger is counting on that. He wants Arya to make a move against Sansa - of which, of course, he will warn Sansa in time - so that Sansa gets rid of her, and redevotes herself to him.

I think it's more likely that Arya will confront Sansa openly, instead of planning something sneaky, they'll talk it out, and team up against Littlefinger instead. But the show will probably keep us for at least one more episode in suspense about that.

#got #game of thrones #a game of thrones

[jackoshadows]

Maybe this is me being naive and hopeful but I don't see the point of Dany dying in the books, yeah, I know what happened in the show, but nothing that happened in s8 made sense anyway. Martin spent a ot of time in ADWD with the political and economic aspects of Meereen, with all the problems that making a new system has to erase at the end the character that has that storyline and that will be needed at the end of the book for Westeros rebuilding.

I have to agree. This was what was so disappointing for me as well with season 8. That GRRM spend an entire book on characters like Dany and Jon being leaders and having to make the tough decisions and getting actual experience and the show ending just gets rid of these characters.

I mean, we had Jon spend a chapter literally counting grain and barley and veggies in the store room. Why? We had to read Dany making the hard decisions, right and wrong decisions, compromise, lose and win. All for nothing.

The writing the show gave it’s endgame leaders was abysmal. Tyrion turned into an idiot, they didn’t care about Bran and Sansa’s qualification was making snarky comments. 

In Bran’s case, I could see GRRM taking him down the path of Leto II Atreides from Children of Dune, in which scenario he could make King Bran of Westeros work in the books. But D&D did not write ANYTHING at all for Bran. On the other hand, they were really invested in Sansa as a character, they wanted her to be more important on the show, they took story arcs and characterization from other characters in the books for show Sansa and they still could not make queen Sansa work on the show.

And the show’s ending does not gel with GRRM’s take on ruling:

We had GRRM’s entire spiel on what ruling means:

One thing that I am trying to get at in the books, the political aspect if you would, is to kind of show that this stuff is hard. I think that an awful lot of fantasy and even some great fantasy falls under the mistake of assuming that a good man would be a good king and all that is necessary is to be a decent human being and then when you are king everything will go swimmingly. Tolkien is great but we never get into the nitty gritty of Aragorn ruling. What is his tax policy? How does he feel about crop rotation?

How does he handle land disputes between two nobles, both of whom think that they should have the village, so they burn it down to establish their claim. This is the hard part of ruling be it in the middle ages or now. It’s not enough to be a good man to be an effective ruler. It’s complicated and it’s hard and I wanted to show that with repeated examples in my books with my kings and hand of the kings - the prime minister if you would - trying to rule. And whether it be Ned Stark or Tyrion Lannister or Tywin Lannister or Daenerys Targaryen or Cersei Lannister trying to deal with the real challenges that affect anyone trying to rule the 7K or even a city like Meereen and it’s hard.

You know, we can all read the books or read history and say oh, so and so was stupid and made a lot of mistakes and look at all these stupid mistakes they make. But these kind of mistakes are always much more apparent in hind sight than when you are actually faced with the decision about, oh my God, what would I do in this situation. How do I resolve this thing? Do I do the moral thing? But what about  the political consequences of the moral thing? Do I do the pragmatic, cynical thing and kind of screw the people who are screwed by it? I mean, it is HARD. And I want to get to all of that - GRRM

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nJCb3xyWyAg

This statement here?

If I am ever a queen I will make them love me

is an antithesis of everything GRRM says above. This quote shows, to a certain extent, Sansa’s naivete at this point. The Tyrells deliberately cut off food to KL and then Margaery Tyrell distributes food to the people to win their favor.  It has  nothing to do with the well being of the people here.  Sansa sees this and thinks that when she is queen, she will make people love her and some folks think that this points to Sansa being the most compassionate, best queen ever.

That’s why Queen Sansa is so attractive to people who subscribe to the simplistic notion that all ruling entails is being beloved by the people. She’s a blank slate who has yet to negotiate or hash out deals with adults, or make a single decision that affects the lives of the people under her. She’s perfect because she has yet to do anything. The Disney fairy tale version - ironically something Sansa believed in at the start of the books. That’s why Jonsas think that we will get King Jon and Queen Sansa ruling happily ever after.

Dany should by all rights be a popular, beloved leader in Meereen. But it’s not easy. She has to hand out justice which is complicated. She has to start building up an economy from scratch - one not based on slavery. She has to deal with an insurgency, famine, disease. She has to make hard choices and she has to do it surrounded by enemies. The former slaves want her to reopen the fighting pits. Does Dany do the moral thing or what her people want?

Both Jon and Dany make mistakes. They make some emotional decisions that are not right. But to quote Leto II Atriedes when he gives his father’s ring to Stilgar in Children of Dune:

To remind you that all humans make mistakes, and that all leaders are but human.                              

Dany is not in a similar situation to the rich Tyrells who can ‘buy the vote’ so to speak, by handing out food to the starving populace of KL. Starvation that happened because the Tyrells closed off the Roseroad during the WOT5K. But Sansa is not thinking like the Tyrells here. She genuinely thinks that all it takes to be a good queen is to make her people happy - and it’s that simple.

Jon Snow at the wall, being the head of a military institution, has it easier than Dany. But, not having Dany’s charm and charisma, he has a harder time convincing people that he is making the right decisions.  By the time we reach the end of ADwD, Jon knows that he is hated by a majority of the watch.

Jon is not making decisions that are popular or liked by his men. He is making decisions based on defending the realm. Save the lives of the freefolk - and not provide more dead to the Others, save the men he send to Hardhome, prepare the watch, prepare the castles, get more food, train more people etc. He too makes mistakes - fails to read the mood of the people. Fails to take warnings seriously. Undermines the neutrality of the watch by interfering in the affairs of the realm.

Doing a re-read of the Wheel of Time series before the TV adaptation premieres, I am reminded of this line from Rand al’Thor returning to one of the kingdoms he conquered. This is the hero of the story, the good guy.

The pair gathered themselves, drew deep breaths — and saw Rand over the Maidens’ heads. Their eyes nearly popped out of their faces. Each man glanced sideways at the other, and then they were on their knees. One stared fixedly at the floor; the other squeezed his eyes shut, and Perrin heard him praying under his breath. “So am I loved,” Rand said softly. - A Crown of Swords

Ruling is not always about being popular, beloved, compassionate, always being right etc. I doubt GRRM intends it to be that way. He has given several instances of rulers and leaders in his books and as he points out none of them has had it easy. Hindsight is 2020 and all that and leader often times make unpopular decisions.

I am torn on Dany’s ending. On the one hand, I find it hard to believe that GRRM is going to kill off a character that he spend so much time building up as a ruler. She is also one of the big 5, who is mentioned as surviving till the end along with Jon, Arya, Bran and Tyrion in the original outline. Why would he kill off just Dany from the big 5?

But would Benioff and Weiss really kill off Daenerys if she does not die in the books? That’s a really big departure for a central book character. I think GRRM knows the endings of the big 5 - in interviews he has always stated that he knows Jon, Arya and Tyrion’s endings.

So whether Dany lives or dies in the books? I don’t know. It will indeed be very disappointing if she does die though. I want the big 5 to make it and have decently good endings.

#Daenerys Targaryen #anti GOT #anti D&D #On Ruling #GRRM #asoiaf