#this is not really lesbophobia more of. experience ig

[menalez]

I’m genuinely wondering and mean nothing bad by this, but I got curious about that ask you answered about lesbians having sex with guys. Because there’s straight women who experiment with women or even choose to be with women exclusively for a variety of reasons, and that makes me think, is it really possible to willingly be with someone you can’t be sexually attracted to beyond idk, mere experimentation (and if so, what makes it more common in say, straight women in comparison to lesbians)? Or are there simply a lot more unaware/in-denial bi people than we think?

Also do you think there actually are lesbians who have willing sex with men even when being fully aware/accepting that they are lesbians? Idk but in my opinion, it seems kinda far fetched, first of all because why would you wanna sleep with men when you’re into women? Like I’d assume being lesbian would mean you don’t have that rose-tinted romantic perception of men (as much ig) that makes a lot of straight women see past men’s unattractiveness, manipulativeness, bad attitude/hygiene etc. But also because discovering you’re lesbian/gay is for many people a harrowing experience. Wouldn’t having sex with the opposite sex be pretty unpleasant then, if it can bring out all these negative thoughts and feelings one may associate with the topic of same-sex vs. (?) opposite-sex attraction? And there’s also the possibility of internalized misogyny pushing towards relationships/sex with men in favor of women. Also would you even get properly turned on if there’s no sexual attraction present? I mean, it’s probably possible to feel pleasure from the sexual acts themselves, but wouldn’t it be harder to get off than with another woman still? If so, where’s the point, then?

Like if we’re being hypothetical, there’s probably lesbians out there who are fully aware and completely sure of themselves being lesbians and have no internalized homophobia/lesbophobia/misogyny whatsoever, but simply sleep with men because they find the sex pleasurable, or because they have no preference (if that’s the fitting word? Or requirement? Idk) in sexual partners when they’re horny, despite their same-sex attraction.

But like, this is just some hypothetical woman. The possibility of there being a lesbian out there who fits that very improbable description does not in any way take away from the correct assumption/general definition that lesbians=don’t sleep with men.

Also sorry for my clumsy writing

there’s probably lesbians out there who are fully aware and completely sure of themselves being lesbians and have no internalized homophobia/lesbophobia/misogyny whatsoever, but simply sleep with men because they find the sex pleasurable, or because they have no preference (if that’s the fitting word? Or requirement? Idk) in sexual partners when they’re horny, despite their same-sex attraction.

HUH??? theres even straight women out there who arent finding sex with men pleasurable, why would a lesbian want to be with a man sexually to begin with? why would any lesbian have "no preference in sexual partners when they're horny" like ur basically saying lesbian boundaries fall apart once we're horny and that just.. doesnt make sense.... if u get horny for men and enjoy sex with men then thats a very blatant sign ur not a lesbian. when im horny i dont suddenly want to have sex with men bc men as a whole are entirely sexually undesirable to me. its not even a neutral act bc its directly me going against my desires & sexuality to do sth like that.

Also do you think there actually are lesbians who have willing sex with men even when being fully aware/accepting that they are lesbians?

i think some lesbians feel like they have to "try" it to prove they're not interested in men since we are all pressured to be "open-minded" by trying being with a man before "insisting" that we're lesbians. but i dont think theres lesbians who regularly are just having casual sex with men knowing full well that theyre lesbians, no. that just doesnt seem rational to me whatsoever.

[stonebutchwritings]

“so patriarchal in their conceptions of femininity (all they post are pictures of lace and kittens and hearts and dresses)” holy femmephobia/lesbophobia. you should understand that the reclamation of feminine things is the most femme lesbian thing there is. you should know better than to target an entire subset of a community when you only take issue with a few within it. femmes don’t need to define themselves by your standard of what lesbian femininity should look like. all kinds of femmes (including fat ones, as you’d mentioned) can reclaim all of those frilly pink things and more, and doing so doesn’t cater to the male gaze at all, which is a genuinely nasty thing to imply. do better. i’m not a huge fan of those people and their behavior either, but come on.

the way you think lace and kittens and hearts are inherently femme is interesting... like i’m legitimately discussing how separated from any sense of working-class culture or anything but aesthetics these blogs are including a sense of patriarchal femininity where they refuse to do anything but foster borderline nostalgia and reverence for tradwife aesthetics. not to mention the fact that they consistently post shit like "all of us femmes" and just like bunnies is really. infantilizing and just furthers a sense of demonization and sexualization of butches (if femmes are all frilly pink dress girls who are so innocent and sweet by nature of being femme then what the hell are we?) and does not resonate with most femmes of color ime. but that last part rlly is just an observation more than anything. i’m not targeting any subset of a community more than i’m critiquing why every part of what you connect to your femmeness and portrayal of such is not at all connected to working-class culture and experiences or is so afraid of gender non-conformity that it demonizes it. or honestly why doesn't this subset even post any picture a tradwife wouldn’t post. you’re not reclaiming anything, these are things the world wants you to do? to only post coquette modest cute photos of western feminine aesthetics?? i’m not interested in community with femmes that aren’t interested in communist revolution. it's not that i even think that this is like, something that makes you not femme in essence, i just think you really should do some soul searching if your blog just is coquette aesthetics and no one would even know you’re a femme if not for you saying the words butch or femme once in a while. not to mention i was more so getting at that all they post are skinny white girls but i should’ve been more clear if i wanted to get at that.

+ i said nothing abt catering to the male gaze but like, congrats on making connections that weren't there ig

cw abuse mention

there's definitely power in reclaiming aesthetics but you have to. be using it towards something positive not... infantilizing yourself. especially with the fact that femmes so so often abuse butches or cause harm and portraying femmes as uwu i cant do any harm babies is 1) crappy to butches and 2) honestly kinda creepy and gives bad vibes. i have the same problem with the serious reclaiming of "bimbo" crowd where they legitimately are like what if a woman was just dumb and pretty this is revolutionary and who i am now. i am feminism.

#you did it patrick you saved the city #if you critique someone for just posting frilly pastel pink dresses and never featuring anything nonpatriarchal on their blog ur femmephobic #turns out being femme is abt aesthetics..... #ask #anon

[floatingbook]

Goddammit, thank you for that Page post. I've read discussions about it on tumblr, ovarit and even saidit, and EVERYWHERE the so called feminists were shitting on her for... Being short ig?? Having a big forehead?? And like you said calling her a "teenage boy". This honestly made me feel so disgusted, especially since I'm also short (taller than Page tho) and gnc.I guess this whole thing proves how actually difficult it is to unlearn the misogyny we grow up with :(

Anon was referring to this post. And these kind of reactions are draining. They just make me so, so tired. I mean, a lesbian, one in the public eye, who has spoken before about how she’s been abused and harassed, who has spoken about the shame and self-hatred she’s had to face for being a lesbian, who’s always seemed uncomfortable in “feminine” clothing, and decides to wear the clothes she’s comfortable in and cut her hair in a manner that appeals to her — and let’s be honest, none of the women criticising her when the Time article came out were commenting on lesbophobia or how Page’s decision impacts public perception of lesbians and sex stereotypes; all that mattered was her appearance — and every woman with spare time and zero empathy just decide to insult her style choices. Talk about community, talk about sisterhood. I guess I’m a “ugly teenage boy” too if they pass me in the street and women’s liberation is freedom to dunk on lesbians.

It’s misogyny, plain and simple. A woman has different political beliefs, and instead of criticising those beliefs, that woman is reduced to her appearance and her experiences lose all credibility, she is discounted, because she doesn’t have the right appearance. She’s an “ugly teenage boy”, she’s a “hag”, she’s “unhygienic”, she’s “old”, no man is ever going to want her, she’s gonna end up alone. The same old trope, rehashed, and always directed at women. But yes, I guess the women trashing Page’s choice of plain tees, jeans, sneakers and short hair can call themselves “feminists” because they do know how to spot a woman (read here: the appropriate target for a reduction to appearances only). Given that climate, it’s no wonder Page turned to the gender nonsense to get a break. At least no one there is giving her shit for just wanting to exist*. 

Moreover, I thought one of the point of feminism was that no woman owes you beauty? That no woman owes you a performance to have her opinions considered, or to be extended, you know, basic respect? But I kept seeing women acting as if another woman had to fit their own standard of appearance to be afforded that basic respect. And it’s really funny (and by that I mean terribly sad) how feminists normally agree that make-up, high heels, flimsy and short  impractical clothing are part of the tools men use to oppress us daily, but as soon as a woman rejects them she’s dog-piled? Way to encourage the behaviour you want to see in the world.

It’s also lesbophobia unleashed. There’s never this level of vitriol to criticise heterosexually-partnered women in the public eye who perform extreme femininity, even if their behaviour is way more negative for all the women and girls who come across media where they appear. It’s always directed at lesbians who refuse to conform, who refuse to perform femininity, who choose to exist in their natural state. These women don’t seem to be bothered by who will be hit in the cross-fire. They forget that what Page was wearing in these pictures is the kind of clothes any woman might wear to be comfortable. They forget that there are plenty of lesbians out there who feel at home in that kind of clothes and who wear them daily. They forget that the very women they’re always asking solidarity from are also a direct target of this rabid appearance insulting.

I don’t think it proves how difficult it is to unlearn the misogyny we grow up with; I think it highlights how many women don’t care about unlearning that misogyny. They aren’t even trying. There is no remorse, as highlighted by this anon I got, who should have been able to get it. It looks like for many women, at least in the “Western world”, feminism is just a space to vent about how mean men are, before going right back to the status quo. There’s no want for change, no real will for action. And lesbians keep getting called would-be-men, like the old homophobia. The world is still the same.

*Again, I don’t caution her choice, hating your body and the misogyny/lesbophobia you face is never going to be solved by pretending you can identify out of oppression, but that’s not really the subject here. The subject is criticising women for their physical appearance and for choosing practical clothing (which is misogyny).

#misogyny #homophobia #political disagreement is no excuse for misogyny or lesbophobia. #you don't need to resort to attack on other women's appearances to make your point

[longinglook]

Hi Anna. First of all let me say that your post was brave to tell your opinion and a part of you. the other anon clearly didnt care abt what you had to say apparently - - ' [ im not english ther will be mistake sry ] Anyways i wanted to share My opinion too if thats ok. I agree completely that internalized homophobia (isnt) shouldnt be a trope, but sadly for me some or most bl shows "use it" a lot and in a "bad way". at least it used to be a loooot like that. like EVERYTIME a guy start to have

[2 / 4 . feeling for anothr, he uses violence! they all do! im so sick of it! people have so many layers and just punching someone for two episode and then getting with him for me thats not it… So i gues thats why some people are “fed up” abt this éstoryline’ its bc sadly its always done the same way. And on my part, I relate much much more to Tine (at laest at where we r now on the show). Bc for ones I feel like Im reliving the same emotions as him.]

[¾ . And its not happening right off the bat, its sllloowly and confusing and lots of interogation and curiosity. Bc yes bls are…what they are. *usually “StRaiGHtss” who suddenly fall for other guy, and all his friends too psshhhh. But with Tine (or 2gether) I feel its defferent. like i really see the process and its just just…wonderful?how it feels so reel bc i get it? bc he is the only one that doesnt beat himself up/disgusted. So i like this progress(???) in this bl bc it shows finally]

[4/4 . an OTHER WAY to deal w/ discovering urself. lol for me it took 7years to accept/understand that im not straight and my mom beeing a homophobe didnt help lol buttt… i still see myself. Take care of you. and if its not yet the case i really hope one day youll be proude of who you arethats why i didnt like bls at all. or ig just thai ones i guess? bc i watch other queer shows and i find them fine.] yes, straight people sometimes do really ruine things dont they xD (lol jk no offence)]

Hello!! Thank you for sharing your opinion with me! 

I am also 100% against shows going the “violence” route as a response to confusion and internalized homophobia because it just makes no sense and it’s not fair that the two things get linked as if abuse would be a normal reaction to it. If you are confused about your feelings/sexuality and decide to take it out on someone with violence, that’s a big no no. Sadly some dramas have done that and it has always bothered me so much because it feels way too over the top and unrealistic. It’s a huge step from feeling grossed out with youself for being attracted to same sex people to deciding to beat someone up for it, one that most people wouldn’t make because normal decent humans don’t go around hurting people like that.

One point that I really wanted to make is that having and feeling internalized homophobia doesn’t make you a bad person. For example, Tine being so open and accepting of himself doesn’t make him any better than a character that would need some time to sort out his emotions and be okay with them. It’s not the same thing as being homophobic, which would entail being prejudiced and closed minded. As I said before, if the confused character decides to get violent with it then yeah he’s an asshole, but being confident and calm about your sexuality just makes you luckier than someone who isn’t, not better.

It is nice and refreshing to watch Tine slowly come to the realization that he likes Sarawat, he feels jealous when he’s surrounded by girls, he likes his company and he’s used to his flirting and welcomes it at this point. It’s nice that we haven’t seen him panic, he hasn’t needed any advice or consultation, he’s acting the way he would if he had found out he had feelings for a girl. I do like this because it makes the show feel lighter and more positive, and so far it’s not overdone to the point of being unrealistic. If all of his friends end up with boyfriends by the end of it I will be a bit annoyed though lmao. For example I think theory of love did a great job with balancing out the straight/gay relationships. I’m not saying I want a straight relationship in every show because that’s boring and unnecessary and if I wanted straight rep I’d watch literally any other show, but they just don’t need to make every single male character gay by the end of the show. Also give us lesbians I am begging you please

My experience with internalized homophobia is specific to being a lesbian, I identified as bi for a really long time and was completely fine with it, but would get extremely annoyed and defensive if someone questioned my attraction to males. I had to work a lot on it to realize that I have tons of internalized lesbophobia to the point where I can’t say I am a lesbian out loud (I’ve come out to a lot of my friends but I was never able to say it, I would have to use words like “I like girls” because the l word still makes me feel nauseous). All of this to say that I’ve known I’m not straight for over 10 years and yet I still can’t get past some stuff, and I’m tired of people acting like it makes me worse than people that are completely chill with it right off the bat. 

I hope this was clear enough and didn’t offend anyone 🙏🙏🙏🙏🙏

#text #ask #anonymous #long post #meta

[angelsaxis]

ig my only qn regarding the d slur reclamation is then: why would the d slur be exclusively applied to black lesbians and not black bi women as well? because bisexual women can be and are as visibly gay/gnc/etc as their lesbian counterparts. i think it's fair for you to bring up the racial element, but is it fair to assume that bisexual women are not also affected by homophobia from being visibly gay in the way lesbians are, within the black community?

follow-up to my prev ask (also anon i hope) but i guess i cant really see a real difference in terms of oppression and what structures would affect a gnc bisexual (and for purposes of being respectful to the racial aspect of the slur) black woman in a longterm committed relationship to another woman, and a lesbian who fits the same description. what real, material differences would there be to say that one, when harassed with the d slur can reclaim it for their personal empowerment, whereas the other cannot? and so, by extension, the exclusion of bisexual women from the use of the slur feels like an assumption that bisexual women's experiences couldn't possibly be similar to a lesbian's and it just...isn't the case

I can see the argument you're making on the material differences in oppression. But also know that for as long as I've been alive, and as long and as far as I've seen, dyke means lesbian and thus anyone who's calling someone that is meaning it as "you're a (bad) lesbian" if that makes sense?

(putting this under a cut because its long and rambly)

like your avg homophobe doesn't have the differential knowledge between what's a lesbian and what's a bi woman and gnc-ness that you and I have. And when I say that I mean like....the only sexualities that exist for a lot of them are straight and gay/lesbian, and then anything even slightly gender nonconforming is, by their own definition, lesbian, since they've defined lesbian as like the masculine-ness of women regardless of their actual attraction. so then that's how you get these same homophobes defining bisexuality as like "half gay half straight" when you and I know that that's not true. I hope this makes sense kajshdkfj I've had this thought for a while now but I've always had difficulty expressing how homophobes define sexuality.

and for me, I rely on what a strict definition of dyke would be specifically because I want to avoid what you mention at the end of the second ask, about the assumptions of bi women's experiences. Like I don't want to say "bi women never experience X!!" cause I know that that's not right, but I don't' want to put so much overlap between lesbian and bi wlw experiences that it erases bi women's experiences w biphobia or my and other's experiences with lesbophobia (and Ive seen moments on here where lesbians talk about something that's definitely like. a lesbian-only experience just by nature, but then OP and others get accused of being biphobic).

I think "misdirected lesbophobia" is the word I'm looking for? that and the fact that now that I think about it, it pisses me off when white wlw go about intracommunity terms and discourse with the level of entitlement that they do, because they do this with "stud" as well. and they do this with our fashion and terms. and white queers in general just like to take and redefine everything in order to force themselves into the same box as us. i remember on twitter a few months ago some pan nb white queer person was trying to say they were a dyke and at that point its like well what is the criteria for the definition of this word.

i think there's another word or piece of vocab or phrase that I'm missing. the last thing I wanna do is have us talking past each other but atm i can't think of anything.

at the risk of over explaining and further confusing anyone who's reading this, I was going about this in a more averaging/general sense in that your average bi person isn't visibly gnc, in the same way that your avg lesbian isn't visibly gnc (many of my lesbian and bi friends do not get clocked like at alllll lmao). and like i know Black bi women who are sworn off men for XYZ reasons and will only date other women. but tbh i dont think any of them would call themselves a dyke cause it has v specific connotations and understandings. and its not so much based on who its used against as it is what is means.

#ask #i think i managed to narrow down my reasoning by the end of the essay alskjhdflaskjdf #yeah anon you bring up valid points we may be speaking from largely diff cultural contexts #d slur

[menalez]

Okay so I have a sort of dilemma, on the one hand I've been thinking I'm a lesbian since I started high school (like, not even questioning it, really repulsed towards any kind of intimacy having to do with male bodies). On the other hand I have sexual trauma and recently I've been wondering if I am not just repulsed because of trauma instead of because of innate sexuality. But also maybe I think that because I have a lot of internalized lesbophobia so maybe i am trying to convince myself I am bi. Of course no one can know my sexual orientation better than I do but do you have any advice on navigating your sexual orientation when you have sexual trauma? Because it has been tormenting me lately. Also is it normal for lesbians to be REALLY physically repulsed by any form of intimacy with males? Or should I go to therapy for that? Or maybe me thinking I should go to therapy for being repulsed by males is just another manifestation of internalized lesbophobia?

i can get the struggle and confusion as someone who has faced sexual trauma myself. it made things quite confusing and difficult for me too when i was questioning and also coming to terms with my sexuality. without the trauma, maybe i would’ve been more confident about it by 15 but instead i used the trauma as a way to explain away my homosexuality.

tbh what helped me was thinking to the time before the trauma. were you ever attracted to boys as a child? did you find yourself attracted to male celebrities or gravitating towards men / boys as a child? did you fantasies about being with them in a romantic way? when i thought back to before my trauma and thought to as far back as 5 years old, i realised that while i had many male friends & got along with guys & was tomboy-ish, i was attracted to girls & not them. this continued as i got older altho from a young age i understood what was expected of me and tried to fit in by forcing interest in guys for the sake of my image and for the sake of acceptance. thinking back to that specifically helped me figure out my sexuality more easily esp since it’s from a time before trauma tainted my experiences and sexuality. maybe that could help u too?? ig unless you experienced trauma at an extremely young age, in which case, maybe there’s no way to rly know and if you haven’t been interested in guys for as long as you remember and continue not to be and don’t think you’ll ever be, but are attracted to women, then.. i guess you know your answer.

also it’s not “normal” or “abnormal” to be super repulsed by any form of intimacy with males. but i do think it’s definitely quite normal to be quite repulsed by sexual/romantic interactions with males if ur a lesbian and honestly normality/abnormality doesn’t matter unless it’s causing you significant distress and dysfunction in ur daily life (and by that i mean like. you’re so repulsed by males that u can’t go out or work or be in many spaces etc. not wanting to be with them or to be intimate with them is imo not at all wrong)

#also being w women can help clear up those feelings fr #when i was first with a woman i knew w so much confidence like. yeah ok im definitely a lesbian #and it was a TERRRIBLE first experience so 😭 that says sth