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langbloor · 2 years

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post/681663350693904384/ i have questions about this post. my bangla knowledge is decent but also kinda meh since i was born and raised overseas but my parents always talk bangla. first question, when do people use apu/api? i thought it was alongside didi? secondly, ive always said chacha or chachu, not kaka. is there a reason for this? idk much about bangla is diff regions of bangladesh so idk what can make this difference. my parents both speak standard(?) bangla bc they were in dhaka

Hello Anon! Thanks for the ask!

Linking the post here for reference for anyone who wants to check it out!

So you are absolutely right about Apu/Api and that they are equivalent words for Didi. However, they are largely prevalent in Bangladeshi households so checks out if your parents were in Dhaka. Use of Chacha/chachu instead of Kaka/Kaku may have similar reasons. In fact, there are even more family words that are different! Two that I can think of off the top of my head are Khala and Phuphu. Khala in Indian Bengali households is usually Mashi and Phuphu is Pishi. Similarly, Chachi is usually Kaki or Kakima. The main reason for this difference is the Urdu/Arabic influence on the Bengali spoken in modern day Bangladesh. Although, I'm hesitant to say whether Apu/Chacha/Khala/Phuphu is something all Bengali Muslims use or whether Indian Bengali Muslims prefer a different word. The reason for my hesitancy is largely because I grew up in an Indian Bengali Hindu household in a majority Hindi/Urdu speaking region and not in West Bengal. So if anyone reading this is an Indian Bengali Muslim or friends with/close to any Indian Bengali Muslims, please do add to this! But the gist is cultural and religious differences between Bangladesh and West Bengal definitely do show up in what is considered 'standard' in both countries.

The standard 'Bangladeshi Bangla' is usually referred to as 'Bangal Bhasha' (বাঙ্গাল ভাষা) in India. At some point in time (likely before the Partition/s of Bengal), perhaps there was less of a religious distinction considering that Bangal bhasha and its derivatives are also widely spoken in North East Indian states of Tripura, Assam, and some parts of Manipur, regardless of religion. I do have family in Assam though, so can confirm that the family members who do still prefer to speak Bangal still use Didi/Kaka/Pishi/Mashi/etc and their associated derivatives so the relationship name difference might very well be religious despite regional overlap. The 'standard Indian Bangla' likely developed from what used to spoken as a dialect by the Ghotis (ঘটী) who are native to West Bengal. This standard Bangla, as we very well see here may not be very standard among all Bengalis, but within India, it is what is used by - news channels/newspapers, government documents, movies made by the Indian Bengali movie industry (Tollywood), for colloquial use among Indian Bengalis, and more. However, literary works, and specifically older literary Bengali works use neither Ghoti Bangla nor Bangal Bhasha. Instead, they use what is considered a more refined form of Bangla known as Shadhu Bhasha (সাধু ভাষা) which has way more grammar technicalities, sounds much more polite, and might be incomprehensible to both me and you (unless you are really into Bangla literature, which I mean, good for you!) Although, nowadays, literary works, and especially works meant to be read by a wider audience don't use Shadhu Bhasha and instead just use the more colloquial Cholti Bhasha (চলতি ভাষা) which would instead be the standardized Ghoti Bengali in West Bengal and Bangal Bhasha in Bangladesh.

Maybe back in the day, before we were forcefully divided by the British, literary Shadhu Bhasha was the only thing that was one standard between all Bengali diaspora and each spoke their own dialect depending on their community/region/religion and that that was just clubbed under an umbrella term of Cholti Bhasha. Though, I'm no linguist so that also is completely a conjecture.

PS - My Bangla spellings are terrible, please correct me if I made a mistake! I am also not Ghoti so if you are and notice any errors here, please point it out!

#maybe more information that you asked for anon but i do have a tendency to ramble so apologies that this is too long :/#i also was gonna go into family word differences between hindi and urdu to illustrate how urdu influences bangal bhasha #but realized that would not only make this longer #but also digresses from an exclusively 'bangla' discussion #also if you are reading this and belong to the south asian diaspora that grew up abroad #i want you to know that south asia has no monoculture in terms of any country and diversity in south asia is a whole jumbled mess #long post #bengali #south asia #asian languages #sawal jawab #< new ask tag folks

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bongboyblog · 3 years

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A dialect? or a language?

I might lose a lot of readers as a result of writing this post... might even get hate mails (lol), hopefully not. But I think this is a topic that I had to bring up on this blog. So... here we go...

I’ve been seeing a lotta controversy online (including on Tumblr), about whether or not Sylheti and Chittagonian are individual languages. Now, it’s alright if the people themselves don’t want to be called Bengali but there are some points that need to be addressed. I’m not a linguist and these are just the conclusions I have come to after reading some books and doing research online .

A language is a dialect too. It’s just a more widely known, standard, or maybe ‘official’ dialect. The Standard Bengali language is thus a dialect too. But it would be wrong to say that every Bengali speaks in this standard form. Thus those who don’t and yet claim to be Bengali and speak dialects ‘similar’ to the standard dialect can be said to be Bengali. No opposition with that I hope.

Now the question is, do speakers of these dialects consider themselves Bengali? I’d say part yes, part no. I’ve come across people who argue that Sylhetis are in no way Bengali and then I’ve come across Sylhetis who seem more Bengali than I do. They speak better Bangla than me!

Let me tell the non-northeast Bengalis (since most people are surprisingly ignorant abt it), the people of Sylhet region in post Independence India gave their blood to be Bengali (google the horrific Bongal Kheda movement and the brave Bengali language movement in Assam, India). That’s how fiercely Bengali they are. I don’t know about the Sylhetis of Bangladesh, but the Sylhetis of India do consider themselves Bengali and will hate you if you call them non-Bengali. No kidding!

Also, I’ve noticed that the majority of people who assert that their language is independent and distinct from Bengali are desis living outside of South Asia. Most of them have feeble or no connection with their homeland and never had the chance of learning standard Bengali. I’m saying ‘most’. As such I don’t know how authentic their point of view should be considered. How can you claim your dialect is different when you’re not aware of how different the other dialects are? Again, I repeat, ‘most’ not all.

Then there are people who’ll claim they’re not Bengali because they’re supposedly from a different ethnic group. But Bengali is not merely an ethnic tag. It’s also a socio-political and lingual identity. So it’s fine if your dialect or, ‘language’ if you prefer that, is not Standard Bengali. Or if you look different from a ‘typical Bengali’. As long as you’re from the region and claim to be Bengali, I don’t see any reason why you can’t be a Bengali.

And just to make it clear, Kolkata and Dhaka Bangla are NOT truly Standard Bangla. Most of us have some regional traits in our speech. We have a ‘Standard’ language so that people from various regions of Bengal (Sylhet and Chittagong fall under this geopolitical entity too) can communicate with each other. Bengali is like an umbrella term, and will lose it’s meaning if everyone assert their regional culture to be distinct and separate.

Ami ki kotha koiDhi bujhoDho to? (Medinipuri country dialect)

Medinipuri Rarhi= Ami ki koitichhi bujhte pattichhen to?

Shadhu (hope I’m correct)= Ami jaha koitechhi apni bujhite paritechhen to?

(Ami ki bolchhi bujhte parchhen to? Are you able to understand what I’m trying to say?) These are just the varieties spoken in West Medinipur! Sylhet and Chittagong are located quite far from Central Bengal (Standard Bangla is supposed to be developed from the Nadia dialect), it’s only fair that their speech will have some variations!!

There are a bunch of people who say that these dialects are ‘corrupt’ Bangla, that’s not true either! They evolved on their own, parallel to Standard Bangla.

So should the dialects/languages be considered independent languages? I think it should be left to the individual speaker to decide. I or anyone else for that matter have no right in telling people whether or not they speak Bengali or are Bengali. All I want to say is that there’re more kinds of Bengalis than what the media (both South Asian and Western) portray and that all forms of Bangla and Bangali are valid.

Nomoskar (Nomoshkar is not really the right way to pronounce it, like a majority of Bengalis do. Nope. It’s a dontto so not a talobbo sho. See? I told ya, don’t go by Kolkata or Dhaka standards :) )

I’m open to discussion, as long as you’re willing to listen too. :)

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banglanotebook · 5 years

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ami likhi doesnt make sense does it? i say ami lektasi (sorry idk how to do the english-alphabet bangla-words thing)

My boy’s family actually speaks the same way you do! I think it’s more colloquial, but I could be wrong. Likhi is Standard Bengali (or “proper” I suppose some would argue –although I don’t like that term) for ami in the simple present tense (I dance, I watch, I write, etc.).

Standard Bangla uses likhchhi/likhsi for ami in the present continuous (I am doing, I am watching, I am writing, etc.). So where does lekhtesi come from if it’s not anywhere in a standard verb chart?

After looking at some charts it looks like lekhtesi might originate from the shadhu bhasha Bangla (”pure language” or old-school register), which isn’t used much anymore, especially in the public sphere. Shadhu bhasha has likhitecchi/likhitesi for the present continuous. So I’m guessing over time the word shortened because people just speak rapidly and shorten words over time for convenience, and certain colloquial dialects maintained the use of some shadhu bhasha language even after cholit bhasha (”common language”) became the dominant register. While its predecessor was strictly for the present continuous, lekhtesi is now used colloquially for simple present and present continuous, as is the case in my partner’s family.

I don’t think Standard Bengali/cholit bhasha uses lekhtesi at all, but the word may linger as an altered remnant of the old academic register. In any case, if this is how you speak then that’s totally cool! Dialects are different ways a language expresses itself and you’re not the only one. Standardization is just the regulation and consistent record of a language so everyone can speak on a common ground and so the language is recognizable to everyone, but standard language isn’t necessarily more correct than any other way of speaking.

The chart I consulted is this one on Bangla-Tangla. The top chart is Standard Bengali, or cholit bhasha, and the bottom one is shadhu bhasha. This is the best educated guess I could come up with, but I am no professional and could very well be wrong so I definitely won’t feel bad if you take this with a grain of salt or ask someone else :)

If any fluent Bengalis have a different idea, lemme know! This is a good learning opportunity!

#bangla #bengali #languages #langblr #dialects #Bangladesh #india #shadhu bhasha #cholit bhasha

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what-is-wrong-with-me101 · 3 years

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why is it so hard to read ;-;

#i read one line and understand like two words so i read it again #and then i get bored and distracted so i take a little break #except i don’t wanna take a breakkkkk #i wish i was more fluent #ughhhh #currently reading pother pachali #and it’s just shadhu bhasha and i don’t vibe ;-;#>.<#but i got this #!#oversharing101 #i just came here to write this #i shall be disappearing again for five mins before i repeat this process ;-;

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banglanotebook · 5 years

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There are a few things learners should be aware of when it comes to Bangla and its verbs before trying to engage with verb charts. The way Bengali verbs function might be very different from what you’re used to, so it doesn’t hurt to take some time to get familiar with some new concepts pertaining to Bengali grammar!

1. Determining Verb Class: Bengali verbs are classified according to their stems, or root word, and are characterized by the letter pattern of the stem. For example, করা [kɔra] belongs to the CVC (Consonant-Vowel-Consonant) group. When you drop the ending, -a, you are left with the stem কর [kɔr], whose letter pattern matches the CVC format. There are verbs that are paired with করা [kɔra], like রান্না করা [ranna kɔra], which means “to cook”. These are instances where the action being done is a noun by itself so it must be paired with a verb. রান্না means “cooking” and করা means “to do/to make”, so literally রান্না করা [ranna kɔra] reads as “to do the cooking”. You conjugate for করা [kɔra] in these cases. Later on at some point I will post a list of those commonly used words that rely on করা [kɔra] or other verbs to become an action.

2. Vowel Mutation: Vowel mutation is more dependent on class than conjugated endings are, but it still maintains regularity based on verb class. Vowel mutation occurs within the vowel of the verb stem when a verb is conjugated and it is a shift in the vowel from the “stem form” to a new verb form. The old stem is considered “low” and the new stem is “high.” The condition in which a vowel mutates depends on verb class, pronouns, and tense.

Low - High e - i æ - e o - u ɔ - o/ô a - e

For example, “to write” is “lekha” in its base form. The stem, lekh, appears when we drop the ending. Lekh is the low form because it matches the original. To create the high form, we swap out the ‘e’ for ‘i’, like the above chart suggests. Likh is now the established high form of lekha. These are the stems you will attach endings to. Since lekha is a Class 1 verb (CVC), ami (I) will favor the high form for “Ami likhi” and tumi will favor the low form for “Tumi lekho.” Mutation patterns depend on verb class, so each class will mutate its vowels differently. These patterns are most easily detailed in verb charts (so keep an eye out for future posts!). While there are 8 predominant letter patterns in Bengali verbs, a few of these behave the same, leaving us with 5 major regular verb groups.

Bangla is a highly inflected and highly regular language. It has a lot of rules and adheres to them the majority of the time, which we see in the behavior of Bengali verbs. Regardless of verb class, Bangla uses the same conjugated endings across the board (with the exception of irregular verbs). This means that once you master endings you will know how to conjugate for almost any Bengali verb. From here the only concern is remembering vowel mutation patterns for each verb class. It may be overwhelming to learn so many rules at first, but rather than pulling the carpet out from underneath learners like other languages might, Bangla tends to be more forgiving and rewarding due to its regularity.

3. Registers: Bengali is widely considered a diglossic language. Diglossia is a phenomenon where a language has two different ways of speaking based on social environment. In the case of Bangla there exists Chalit Bhasha and Shadhu Bhasha. Shadhu Bhasha is nearly obsolete in every day life and is reserved for legal matters, literature, and other “high” forms of speaking and writing. It’s largely neglected in the public sphere and is now the language of old school academia. Chalit Bhasha is the “common” register which is used in every day media and conversation, thus dominating the social landscape. These two registers heavily affect grammar, including verbs. As of right now, I am exclusively studying Chalit Bhasha as it is the most commonly used. I see no need to study Shadhu Bhasha until you reach an advanced level. However, if you’re curious about Shadhu Bhasha’s approach to verbs you can check out the verb conjugator on Bangla-Tangla --they provide charts for both registers.

If anyone has any questions, comments, corrections, or additional contributions please leave a comment or drop by my ask box!

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