#even when i don't conform as in don't wear makeup or don't shave there is still somrhting in me that tells me i need to do this and this

[c4nonball]

The internal voyeur all women have that shapes every decision we make and every sentence we say and every hand movement and ear tuck and our gait and mannerisms and speech and thoughts and feelings; The constant never-ending feeling of being on watch, constantly on display, on a podium, performing for an audience. When you’re a woman there is always an audience. Even when you don’t cater in the big ways, there is still that little man in your head telling you you must be more, more, more attractive, you can always be more attractive, you should always be attractive, you must always be seen as attractive.

#radfem #anti beauty #even when i don't conform as in don't wear makeup or don't shave there is still somrhting in me that tells me i need to do this and this #because it is more attractive #and i'm not even afraid of being ugly but at the same time i am #like i let myself be ugly but feel a little ashamed of it #i also body check a lot still #i'm working on fully not giving a fuck but it's hard

[ave-immaculata]

Can I still be Christian if I don't fit into the gender roles? Ok, typing it out makes it sound like a ridiculous question, but still. I'm a woman, and I just feel like I don't fit into any of the 'norms'. I don't wear make up because I don't want to, I've never shaven, and honestly most of my clothes are boy's section because I like the cuts and the material better. (It's thicker, it's not tight and it doesn't look ridiculous- for whatever reason even teenage boy's clothes are more practical than women's.) I'm in a male-dominated field of study as well, and I don't plan to ever have kids, and if I do, then it'll be through adoption.

Buuut counting all of that, I've gotten some pretty strange looks when I started going to church. I've had people make all sorts of assumptions and it does feel tiring. I've had a friend I made there subtly send me a link through Whatsapp for bible verses on 'femininity', and all that even. I don't know. I feel pulled towards God, but I also feel that I'm all alone in this. Virtually every other Christian woman I encounter wants to be a mother and take care of her husband. It's only on this website that I've even seen Christian women who are in tech and all that.

Absolutely, a resounding and explicit yes. In all sincerity, those norms do not matter in the Christian life, and even if Christians might culturally expect those things from women, Christ does not. The Blessed Virgin, the holiest woman to ever live, never wore makeup or shaved, and her clothes would have been practical and loose fitting. Openness to life (i.e. being open to having biological children) is crucial if you're called to marriage, but adoption is a noble and virtuous endeavor regardless. If it's not imminent (i.e. you're engaged, married, etc.) then take it to prayer as you grow with Christ! There's no rush and need to have it discerned right at the beginning.

That does sound exhausting; I think there's sort of an overcorrection where Christians, in an effort to reclaim their identity as men and women, are very rigid and enforcing extrabiblical rules about what 'real' masculinity and 'real' femininity are. A lot of men and women do thrive in those stricter rules, but plenty of women are virtuously feminine even if they might be less 'obviously' feminine. I would hope that the friends from your church are sincere and trying to be helpful, and I'm sorry that it seems like they're kind of shooting in the wrong direction. Finding fellowship is something I still really struggle with and I've found tumblr super helpful.

Keep praying and keep seeking God; conform yourself to Him and try to live righteously. You're so so welcome in the Christian life.

[fairycosmos]

I guess I missed that era but is bimbo feminism not mocking the fact that women are viewed as less intelligent for being feminine ? I’m currently in a situation where I’m bullied by the men I work with for being stupid even though I’ve done nothing to prove this in fact when talking about my interests one of the boys said “she’s trying to sound smart” like it seems like a movement I could’ve been on board with. And sometimes I am stupid I mean shit. Im not perfect. I just think women are viewed as less for wanting to be attractive, especially if they aren’t naturally. And if you want to be attractive you must be stupid with nothing else to offer. And if you are smart it has to be consumed. And if you let yourself be ugly you’re treated even worse. It’s not safe out there for us bimbos

i think it at least partially started as a way to satirize the demonisation of femininity and that aspect of misogyny, but not only is it one- dimensional (all women are mocked and considered stupid and lesser than no matter how much we conform to traditional femininity. like butch and gnc women r also dehumanised in this way) it also ended up being entirely watered down to people genuinely believing that wearing makeup and playing dumb and shaving and whatever else are automatically feminist acts when they're not lol. not every choice a woman makes is a feminist action just bc she's a woman and there is nothing inherently feminist about playing into the traditional gender role that has been pushed onto you even ironically at least imo.......there is nothing wrong with wanting to be attractive, though in the context of feminism i think it's a good idea to examine where that desire comes from and why it manifests the way it does. but i would argue that what you're unfortunately experiencing is just plain old misogyny, not bimbo specific misogyny, and i don't see how framing a patriarchal stereotype of women as subversive and feminist is productive lol at least not with the way the initial mediocre yet valid message got misconstrued into what "bimbo feminism" is now. im really really sorry about the sexist assholes at your workplace, i hope you're able to find some support and assistance with it bc you should not have to put up with it at all. x

#anon #im not gonna engage w this bimbo feminism thing further cuz this is basically my opinion lol

[thecurioustale]

I Have a Fanatical Stance on Conventions of Body Appearance in Visual Media

In the timelines where I end up making movie, TV, or video game productions of my work, I have always had a list of several defiant guidelines that I will never compromise on, no matter what—even to the point of not making the movies if it comes to it. (Nor am I kidding about that.) Here's the list:

Body size norms for male and female actors = gone. In particular, I want to dispel the ghoulish reality we live in where female actors' upper arms look skeletal and their shoulders look almost juvenilely narrow; and, on the male side, those equally emaciated male actors who look like they're being tortured just as much as the female ones to eliminate virtually all their body fat, while also being forced to have comically broad shoulders and horrifying, steroidal musculature on their arms and torsos (and sometimes thighs). I really hate to use the word ugly, because that's not fair to the people who naturally look that way or deliberately want to look that way and work to achieve it. But I will say that the norm of imposing this shit as a societal default in our media absolutely is ugly.

Body diversity = the new hotness. I don't just mean I would make all the characters fat. I really do mean "diversity": I would ensure that my casting operation selected for a variety of body sizes and types, both within and on top of any my preexisting descriptions in written form.

Female beauty stereotypes like cosmetic makeup, big boobs, and high heels = begone! Just like it says on the tin. It blows my fucking mind that still to this day our media show female characters in war zones / apocalypse conditions / etc. in full lipstick, eyeliner, lash extensions...it's just ludicrous. Makeup for the camera, which all actors receive to "correct" for the biases of being filmed, I would keep, but the cosmetic makeup as a female default is gone. Only if characters (of any sex!) would actually want to wear cosmetic makeup, and only in situations where it would make sense for them to do so, would they be filmed in it. Same goes for the high heels. As for big chests, there would be some of that on the grounds of body diversity, but it would no longer be the norm, and bra padding for size or shape would not happen (again, unless the characters themselves had in-world personal motives for doing it because they wanted it as a part of their own look; that is night-and-day different from the production forcing it onto the characters as a meta-narrative).

Height diversity = lovely skylines. There's been a long trend favoring tall actors over short ones, and male actors are always cast as or else portrayed to be taller than their female counterparts. This artificial uniformity would be gone in favor of a natural variety of body heights.

Body hair = natural by default. Characters who would actually want to wear their hear differently (for aesthetic reasons more so than to conform to social norms for the sake of avoiding scrutiny) would of course continue to do as they liked, but no longer would this be the default. Waxed chests, sculpted beards, shaved pits...it's all an artifice of social convention. Nothing wrong with it, but neither is it the natural state of our bodies, nor is it inherently superior. We need to normalize body hair in our social conscience again.

Splotches, blotches, freckles, warts, and moles = back in business! This stuff is erased for no good reason. Societies hold onto these stupid norms of erasure out of a misapplied phobia toward the appearance of "sickness," and out of a powerful bias toward conformity.

I feel very strongly about all of this, and especially about the body size stuff. I'm really not kidding or exaggerating when I say that I would not sign any movie, TV, or game contract that did not guarantee all of the above. I do not want to participate in the cultural bigotry of homogenizing human appearance. I do not want to participate in the erasure of marginalized bodies, or the lie that what is popular is also better. For me, the items on this list would be as central to the purpose of my works as the actual contents of the story.

#Body diversity #Visual representation in media #Character appearance

[daubigny-stan]

The reason I'm so scared of marriage is because patriarchy starts in the household. Many of the biggest injustices happen in the courtroom, the workplace, and many other public spaces - but it stems from and is everlasting in your family. Your mom might be a high powered career woman in a lofty position, but she is still expected to prepare food, coddle her husband, and take care of the children. And if she doesn't, then she is viewed as having failed to fulfill that correct role in her family. This is a patriarchy not codified in books by men smoking pipes in prestigious university offices, but one accutely felt by women on the daily.

Sexism in the household is that and so much more. It's when you men scream gender equality in university activism meetings but whine and moan when your mom asks you to do the dishes. It's when you develop gender empowerment programs at work but then expect your wife sacrifice her career to take care of the kids. It's when your parents coddle your brother but you are treated so much lesser despite handling so many responsibilities.

If marriage was a neutral phenomenon with the sole purpose of uniting two parties, it would be hunky-dory. But time and time again - when I look at my mothers, my aunts, my grandmother, and so on - it isn't. It feels as though its main purpose is to reaffirm these power dynamics between genders through the institution of the nuclear family. To hand down the strict role that comes with being in the position of the wife and mother to the daughter. Some of the most vile misogyny doesn't come from men - it comes from your own mother.

Don't get me started on being a daughter that doesn't fit into that role. If you are deemed not feminine enough to fit the role of the traditional wife/mother, it is almost certain that your mom will drill your biggest insecurities into you. If you are fat, your mom will berate you into not fitting the beauty standard. If you do not conform to your assigned femininity, your mom will critique your lack of feminine traits. Doesn't have to even be you being tomboyish - you don't wear makeup? You don't shave your legs? You're a bit sloppy? I bet you the family is where you got those insecurities. You're queer? Your mom's main concern is that you won't inherit the same role that she has, not that you're happy.

I am so scared that when I get married, that inequality will occur to me. I will end up in a relationship where I am saddled with all of the domestic responsibilities, where I am forced to prioritized my husband in an inequal relationship. I am so scared of constantly being berated for not doing my role of wife correctly, by other female members of my own family. I am petrified by the idea that if I have a daughter one day, I will inevitably inherit all of this on to her.

Hopefully it is forgiven and understood that a lot of gendered terms were used in this essay. The patriarchy as reinforced by marriage is only present when it is heterosexual, between a man and a woman. LGBTQ unions and marriages don't do this and I think that's a big reason to why they're not viewed as legitimate marriages. That being said, queer people are definitely not exempt from this experience - trans men and lesbians will have definitely felt what it's like being a daughter and thus subjected to all the standards that come with it; especially since they have failed to conform to it.Trans women who transitioned later in life have their feminity invalidated by TERFs because they didn't. Femininity is perceived as inexplicably tied to that submissive role in the heteronormative nuclear family as wife or daughter. As was stated earlier - the most vile (trans) misogyny comes from other women.

#personal #essay #long post #ive just been feeling really out of control of my own life #i really really want to move out #eldest daughter syndrome

[birdofmay]

Hot take but people in the LGBTQ+ community need to stop conflating gender norms with gender identity. Just because an AFAB dislikes skirts and makeup doesn’t automatically mean they’re non-binary or a trans man. 

For example: I’m a cis female. I like presenting androgynous, and in public I often get mistaken for being a guy by strangers. I used to think I was agender, pangender, demigirl….I spent hours searching up gender identities online and it made me feel even more confused. But then I realized that I am just a cis girl. It felt freeing to realize that I don’t need to conform to femininity in order to be a cis girl. And it feels a hell of a lot less confusing. 

I was in your exact spot too. I used to never get gender euphoria, and when I tried different pronouns, nothing ever felt right. I felt lost. But when I accepted that I can present masculine and be a cis girl at the same time, that’s when I started getting gender euphoria. I get gender euphoria when I wear leather jackets and boyfriend jeans. I get gender euphoria when my hairdresser shaves a part of my hair when I’m getting a trim at the salon. I don’t mind when people mistakenly call me “sir” because I know it doesn’t change how I feel about being a woman.

I don’t know what your inner world looks like, so if you read this and find that you’re still left with questions, then I apologize. But in my personal opinion, people keep getting wrapped up in gender identities that we forget to ask “What is the root of this? Do I feel indifferent towards my AGAB because I truly feel that I am trans/non-binary? Or do I feel indifferent to my AGAB because I don’t conform to gender norms regarding my AGAB?” 

But at the end of the day, focus on what’s best for you. And don’t stress too much over your gender identity. Regardless of what you identify as, you deserve respect and care from other human beings. 

Ah, you misunderstood my recent posts I think - it's not that I question my gender or my gender identity (my gender is female, my gender identity is a big question mark, but I'm ok with that)), it's that apparently everybody seems to have pleasant feelings when it comes to things that affirm their gender identity or gender presentation (or both), and I would like to feel something too.

I've always been rather "tomboy-ish" (so I already know that presenting androgynous doesn't give me gender euphoria) and was raised completely gender neutral, so there isn't even pressure to conform to certain standards. I don't feel trans or something, and I don't feel discomfort towards any aspect of femininity, what bothers me is that I don't feel anything.

#anon ask #long post

[stonebutchwritings]

i saw your recent post mention gnc femmes and i didnt know femmes can be gnc? omg... i can be femme with facial hair?? when im not explicitly femme dressed? (masc presenting/androgynous/mixed assortment)

thank you for including that, i know it wasnt the intent of your post, it really 0:!!! me though because i look butchy but i feel femme.

also i agree with your post wholeheartedly, and i wish butches were appreciated and loved more and valued for their butchiness instead of hypersexualized and demonized as well.

cw for the d slur! i'll let you know when it's abt to be said~

i think that a lot of femmes are very gender non-conforming! a lot of femmes access this through more brazen sexuality or campiness in their aesthetics, but many femmes also access gender non-conformity through the way they don't shave, the way they carry themselves, etc. I've even seen a post floating around here about a femme who passes as butch during their work shift because of their physical labor-related job, but they, and you, are still femme.

i want to let you know, you don't "look butchy"! you're always looking femme when you're a femme. maybe you're not dressed to your nines, but you do look amazingly femme! it's even more clear when you incorporate the staples of gender non-conformity that you do-- a good piece on this was written by Arlene Istar, a Jewish lesbian writer, about her femmeness.

(d slur in the next paragraph, so you can skip to the excerpt if you'd like, but be warned that the excerpt has a version of the t slur in it! if you want to avoid the d slur in the excerpt too, stop reading after the word "femmy".)

The piece is called Femme Dyke, and it's featured in the Persistent Desire, but I'll put the important excerpt down here. content warning for a version of the t slur!

[ID: I find myself feeling frustrated while writing, thinking you, the reader, must picture me as far more femme than I am. Although I enjoy wearing skirts, I often wear pants. I rarely wear makeup (although I do have a fetish for nail polish), and I proudly wear my facial hair. I neither love nor hate to cook or clean house and have healed (finally) my codependent need to be eternally present for my partner. By nobody's standards am I "delicate, docile, deferential, ladylike, refined, and genteel," as femininity is traditionally defined, although some might argue that I am "soft, tender, and submissive"-- but only under the right circumstances. One friend, trying to reconcile my very assertive presence with my femme drag, called me a transvestite butch! I do not fit anyone's stereotype of a feminine woman, any more than I fit anyone's stereotype of a dyke.

A few years ago, I bought a pai of warm winter boots. I worked in an agency where all the women wore heavy femme drag, and even if I hadn't been out, my differentness was apparent. I wasn't sure if the agency would even let me wear boots to work. I walked into my office, and two male co-workers immediately began playfully whistling. "Ooh,new boots -- how butch," they teased me. Later that evening, I met my lover and another friend, both butch identified. They too teased: "Ooh, new boots -- how femmy," they said. And I suppose that's what being a femme-dyke means. The boys think I'm butch, and the girls think I'm femme. End image description.]

There are a million ways to be femme, and I want to be ecstatically clear when I say that many femmes, especially Black femmes, Indigenous femmes, South Asian femmes, other femmes of color, Jewish femmes (as you can see above), disabled femmes, and tma femmes, have been practicing femininity that wasn't deemed "feminine enough" for ages. they are still femmes, and are sometimes in fact, some of the best femme role models you could hope for!

Also, thank you for your kindness towards butches and the issues we've been having, lately and forever. I hope that this answer can help you feel more recognized and appreciated in your community as well.

#anon #ask #i will be going kind of inactive for pretty much the rest of the day bc i have a life but like. i want to leave on a high note ! #i love femmes with all my heart <3 <3 <3 #mine

[piqued-curiosity]

What would you say being GNC is? I saw your post about butch/femme and I do agree that many people treat it like some sort of gender role but for lesbians.

I've seen people talk about GNC lesbians but I haven't really seen people explain? Can you be GNC if you don't wear make-up and don't shave but do wear earrings and comfortable dresses?

Personally I only wear comfortable clothing and shoes. Whether those are hiking shoes or shoes with a small square heel, or trousers or a comfy dress. I don't wear foundation but I have tinted lipbalm and when I still used make-up I only ever used a bit of eyeshadow. I used to have very short hair but now it's long because I constantly had to go to the hairdresser, and it's less hassle to just let it grow for me.

Like, I understand wearing dresses and having long hair is considered gender conforming... but do you get what I mean? Can you only be GNC if you dress "masculine"?

I think it’s a very relative term that’s going to vary based on personal experience.

For example, a woman who grew up in a family and community that wasn’t so strict about gender roles, might not feel like she’s not conforming when she doesn’t wear makeup, doesn’t shave, and wears a suit. If she’s gone her whole life never being challenged for this, it makes sense that it would just be normal to her and she wouldn’t consider it GNC.

On the flip side, a woman who grew up in an environment that harshly enforced gender roles, might feel like she’s not conforming by doing even the smallest thing, like not wearing makeup, or wearing pants instead of a skirt, or cutting her hair. Because of her upbringing, any one action that rebels against what was enforced will feel like an act of non-conformity, and she might refer to herself as GNC because of that.

I also think it’s a hard thing to measure, because there’s so many individual things that can be considered GNC, and then mixed and matched. On the surface; not wearing makeup, not wearing “feminine” clothes, having short hair, etc. Below the surface: being assertive, being confident, not making yourself small for others, etc. So what do we do with that? Do we treat it like a DSM diagnosis and say “you need to be doing at least [X number] of these before calling yourself GNC”? Do we not do that, and call even the most gender-conforming woman GNC because she wore pants?

And yes, I absolutely get what you mean. Personally, I’m kind of like you where I conform in some areas, but don’t conform in others. I’m comfortable in tights and a t-shirt, which I consider very neutral, I can’t really call it “feminine” or GNC because it’s just what I’ve always been comfortable in, with no gender roles attached. I don’t shave, I don’t wear makeup. Everyone can agree those aspects of me are GNC (especially my mother who is not happy about it lol). I’m loud, confident, and I at least try to be assertive. That’s considered by most to be GNC. I’m working on other similar areas, like the habit of saying “sorry” too much or being the one to move out of the way for another. But I keep my hair very long (around butt length). So does that cancel everything out? Or is it just one area I’m conforming in?

So I guess I don’t really have an answer to what “GNC” is…because I don’t really think there’s one single way to be GNC. I think the line is drawn at the impact the non-conformity has. So to use the example of the hyper-feminine woman in pants again…she’s not GNC, because those pants have such a little impact when they’re being overshadowed by her conformity in all other areas. But an unshaven, barefaced woman in a dress and sneakers, I’d consider that GNC because the rejection of shaving, makeup, and impractical footwear overshadows the dress. And then bonus points for short hair, “masculine” personality traits, etc.

#asks #anon

[butch-reidentified]

a type of femininity that is subversive to a degree and specifically is NOT appealing to straight men ] gyn wake tf up there is no such thing youre underestimating the scope of the male gaze

Do you genuinely not understand the nuance in what I was referring to there, or do I really need to break down for you what this statement actually meant? This just comes off kinda disingenuous to me tbth.

Honestly, just a general note to everyone: if you're gonna send me these types of asks in this self-righteous, condescending, semi-aggressive tone, while entirely missing the point & context of my original post... just don't. There's nothing feminist about unprovoked hostility towards other women, and there's certainly no reason or need for hostility in addressing this matter either.

Anon: I am not "underestimating the scope of the male gaze," you are simply removing the context here. Why exactly do you think I said "to a degree?" I am very much aware that the male gaze encompasses all things female - including women who are extremely gnc.

Here is the full paragraph you referenced:

To me, femme identity should be about a type of femininity that is subversive to a degree and specifically is NOT appealing to straight men. It should be more like 《I have intentionally worked through and unlearned much of my performative femininity, but find that I really do like x, y, and z stereotypically feminine things. However, I also refuse to participate in harmful, anti-woman activities like spending a fortune on "anti-aging" products, cosmetic surgery, diet culture, makeup, silencing myself, etc.》

Not participating in any of those things is a pretty significant turn off for most het men, and very few het men will be so turned on by your enthusiasm for hosting dinner parties and crocheting that they'll overlook your refusal to perform aesthetic femininity as expected.

I described my wife as an example there. What part of her day to day appearance is appealing to the average straight male? The "femininity" of her appearance ends at "long hair." She just doesn't really display femininity outwardly. As I described in that post:

My wife doesn't wear makeup or dresses or heels or do up her hair or remove her body hair. She isn't quiet or submissive or weak or delicate. She actually has a black belt and used to teach women's self defense - unpaid on a volunteer basis.

Her standard look is pants or jeans, t-shirt, comfy shoes, no makeup, no perfume, hairy legs and armpits, etc. What I did say is that she enjoys "x, y, and z conventionally 'feminine' things." Those things are not appearance-related. They're personal interests (ie hobbies) which men don't get to see because men don't get a view into our private home and lives. None of these things are performed *for* men, which is what I clearly meant by that statement.

Men will fetishize and lust after absolutely anything a woman is or does, so what is your point here exactly? There are straight men who fetishize the most gnc women they can find. Some even fetishize TIFs who have been on hormones and grown a beard. None of us can escape the male gaze, but the majority of straight men are still disgusted by gender nonconformity in women's appearances, even if she has long hair. Hell, I've had a handful of OSA friends who do wear makeup and skirts and heels and style their hair and paint their nails, but don't shave their body hair, and most men are pretty quick to reject them for that alone.

When we all know the scope of the male gaze is all-encompassing, I figured it would be apparent to anyone reading that post that that bit was about the average/majority of hetero men, and finding ways to enjoy your conventionally feminine interests without drawing male attention. This as opposed to the thread I was responding to, which described femmes as entirely physically gender conforming & appealing to the (average) male preferences.

#mine #ask #anon ask #anon #gender nonconformity #femme

[diaryofadaringwitch]

Every AFAB witch should try these at least once:

Stop shaving until you no longer feel comfortable, then try to go one more day

If you wear makeup daily, try going without or at least stop wearing any foundation/powder concealer

If you wear traditional underwire bras consistently, try wearing sports bras or other flexible materials outside of a gym setting

Wear legitmately comfortable shoes for an event you would normally wear heels for. There are plenty of dressy shoes that are not heels

---------------------------------------------------------

Why?

Simple- witchcraft is about agency. Making the conscious choice to impact your life through the direction of energy.

Growing up, traditional femininity felt like a script I was supposed to be following and I would be shamed for messing up my lines. I remember begging my mom to let me shave after I was bullied for having underarm hair. I wore makeup daily to cover my "flaws", I spent so much time and effort on crafting a 'ladylike' appearance.

So I stopped. I did a full 360 and tried to be "not like other girls". But that didn't make me happy either. I didn't fit in with other girls my age and I wasn't one of the "boys" either. I had just given myself a new set of rules.

Now- I get to make my own rules. I shave sometimes, but I don't feel ashamed of my body hair when I let it grow. I love dressing up in heels sometimes but I don't feel compelled to wear them if I'm uncomfortable. And outside of cosplay or events with a lot of photos (like a wedding) I don't wear foundation at all- but I still enjoy fun eyeshadow and I love nail polish.

I can just exist how I want. Sometimes that involves those traditional "feminine" things but I don't think of it that way. It's a choice now.

I feel like it's important for afab people who feel like they "have to" do things a certain way to appear desirable should break the rules for a bit. Even if you go back to your old routines, you can do so with the knowledge that it's a choice, that you are consciously making the decision instead of being stuck in social compulsions.

What do you think? Is there any value to these habits or is it simply another way to pressure people to conform? I'd love to hear all kinds of thoughts and opinions.

Blessed day!- Kate

#witch #witchcraft #kate speaks #afab #gender roles #traditional femininity #breaking gender roles #compulsory femininity

[radkindoffeminist]

I agree that the beauty industry is fucked up and I believe influencers are responsible for this sudden influx of body dysmorphia. However, I don't see why using makeup is a bad mark on someone's character and why I should reprimand them for it?

When did I say that makeup is a bad mark on someone’s character and you should reprimand someone for that?

Like this is playing right into the idea that criticising makeup in any way means that you dislike anyone who uses makeup. I never said that they were bad people. I never said you should reprimand them. But apparently saying ‘hey women are socialised to use makeup from a young age and many are even forced (overtly or not) to wear makeup in order to be seen as professional which is why wearing makeup is not and will never be a feminist action’ somehow equates to that? I’ve never thought that women giving into their socialisation was a bad mark on their character because I fully understand why they do that stuff. I fully understand that we receive messages from every single aspect of society to shave and wear makeup and dress a certain way and it’s really easy to accept and internalise these messages and therefore act a certain way. It’s just awful that women don’t recognise that they have internalised these messages and instead choose to believe that they ‘just like makeup’ and whatever and attack anyone who dares to criticise makeup and the makeup industry.

I’m not saying go and attack anyone who wears makeup. I’m not saying that they’re a bad person for wearing it. I’m saying that wearing it will never be a feminist action because it’s literally what the patriarchy wants from us and complying with their demands cannot be feminist. I’m saying that people shouldn’t be defending it as being feminist when it’s not and if you’re going to use it then you should, at the very least, acknowledge that you have been socialised to like it like every other woman has or that you are wearing it for the sake of professionalism.

Is it because I said it’s not a feminist action? Was that it? Because anything which involves conforming to a patriachual standard will never be a feminist action and that doesn’t mean I’m saying that they’re always bad or that they’re anti-feminist. There exists a middle, neutral ground between actions which better women’s rights and go against patriarchal standards and actions taken specifically to harm women’s rights and force women to conform to patriarchal standards. Conforming to patriarchal standards is not a feminist action and trying to position it as so so that women don’t criticise their beliefs and actions is awful activism. It’s lazy. I’d even say it’s anti-feminist because it shuts down analysis on how female socialisation affects women, even going so far as to deny there is female socialisation in some cases.

Why are people so insistent on (purposefully) misinterpreting what I’ve said?

[butchviking]

tbf there are women (like me) who when we put on makeup are fully aware that we are putting it on only to conform to gender norms and avoid social stigma. like yeah it’s different than women who have never worn makeup, but i feel like there’s more of a scale. i only wear it once or twice a month and honestly it makes me a little angry when i do. if/when i become more willing to take on the consequences of eschewing gender norms i will never wear it again

ok so that post was one i put in my queue when i was angry - bc u shouldnt argue on the internet when ur angry lmao and i do too often so sometimes i put shit in queue to discuss when ive calmed down. problem is my queue is currently over two weeks long so sometimes i forget exactly what prompted the post. HOWEVER.

if i recall correctly that was abt this attitude i see, more often than not from gender-conforming women, that gnc women who disidentify with their sex are. basically self-absorbed sexist idiots who, by disidentifying, are implying that all women except them must love the female gender role and must love being oppressed. like a ~im not like the other girls~ thing. but with 'not like the other girls' i think a lot of ppl are now coming to recognise that, yeah, sometimes it's a sexist statement bc one particular woman thinks she's sooooo much deeper and more human than the other women around her - but sometimes, it's because she can see very clearly that she's NOT like other women. and has felt ostracisation and loneliness about that nd has felt like there must be something wrong with her for being so unlike the typical women in her life. and with trans identity it's often the same thing.

i just can no longer make the space in my heart to sympathise with gender-conforming women who act like gnc women disidentifying w womanhood is some kind of personal attack on them, or on all women. women in makeup and heels who act like it's a slight against them for a gnc woman (who will pretty certainly have faced shit in her life for being gnc) to look at them and say. i'm not her. i'm not whatever she is. i must be something different because if that's what women are then i'm not one and i don't want to be one. it's an argument i'm so fucking tired of hearing and nine times out of ten i will stand w a gnc female who identifies as trans bc she doesn't see any room in the definition of womanhood for her any day before i stand w gender-conforming women who mock or belittle her for that.

i recognise there's a scale of gender conformity, and makeup was just one example, and i know not all women who wear makeup wear it all the time - but, as you say, it is a concession to avoid social stigma. so to me it's like. let she who is without sin cast the first stone. how's a woman who makes concessions to gender because she doesn't have the strength to face the repercussions of refusing to conform going to criticise other women for the concessions they make to get through the repercussions they are facing for refusing to conform.

and one extra point: you say 'it’s different than women who have never worn makeup' but, while i know there are such women out there (and by god, good for them), it's worth noting that for some women - for me, personally - they might have made concessions to gender at times. because they felt like it's what they had to do. what they were supposed to do. as a girl. as a woman. and sometimes, it's disidentifying with womanhood that makes them feel like they're ALLOWED to not do that shit anymore. for several years as a teen i shaved my legs & my pits, wore light makeup most days, even wore skirts and dresses at times. it made me feel like an alien. i hated it. but i'd always been given the message that it was just What Women Do and it's part of growing up that you have to get used to that. and when i discovered i didn't 'have to be a woman' there was a freedom in that for me. i could stop shaving. i never had to wear makeup. when someone told me i walked like a man or dressed like a man or talked like a man or whatever, it didn't have to be an insult. i could take pride in being as masculine and as free & unconstrained by the trappings of femininity as i liked. sure, that's a concession to gender in its own way. patriarchy isn't going to be overthrown by women only feeling comfortable with gender non-conformity when they convince themselves they aren't women. but patriarchy isn't going to be overthrown by women wearing heels and makeup so people will be nice to them, either. you're no better than us.

#ask #anonymous #hope this makes sense i just got off a 12hr shift and i have a fever lol #note i know i said 'you' at the end there but i dont actually mean u anon <3 #u havent pretended to be better and this whole rant ofc isnt really aimed at u #just smthn i had 2 get out & is aimed at those who DO act holier-than-thou abt this #ps this is also NOT aimed at proud gnc women who feel anger and a sense of abandonment at other gnc women who disidentify. #i could prob say a lot abt that too nd i still dont agree if they mock or belittle but. ultimately i am much more sympathetic 2 their angle

[menalez]

Okay but that comment is infuriating. You see it right?

>"[We need you to] understand that the great majority of women who conform to patriarchal ideas and demands do it for their safety"

Valid point (kind of condescending implying us lowly gnc women DON'T come from backgrounds where our physical safety hasn't been threatened by being GNC but okay. Whatever. Still valid)

>"because if they don't shave or wear makeup they get treated as a lesser woman" ... "Have sympathy for me! I do what I do because I don't want to be treated like YOU!" How fucking condescending. How fucking tone deaf do you have to be to say that?

ngl but yeah when i read that bit i perceived it similarly. we all know that being gnc comes with a risk but like a woman not shaving or wearing makeup, while punished, does not even hold up to the risk gnc women face (being gnc is more than just not performing these specific feminine rituals imo. my gf doesn’t shave nor wear makeup, but neither do a lot of feminine women. her being gnc is bc she’s got a short masculine haircut, wears men’s clothing, and is visibly a lesbian to anyone who sees her & realises she’s a woman). and i can see how it can feel insulting for gnc women when they essentially read “you need to be more sympathetic to gender conforming women!!! they’re totally only conforming bc they don’t want to face what u face!”. gnc women face this “lesser woman” treatment daily. women who don’t shave or wear makeup face it sometimes too. i don’t think any woman doesn’t realise women face mistreatment for not conforming to gender roles.

[theoldlesbianwithcats]

I wonder if the reason why women, even those who call themselves feminists, don't let go of sexist things in their lives like makeup, shaving, uncomfortable clothing and shoes, misogynistic media, even religion, is because most of them think they live a useless little life that has no influence on other people.

Does anyone remember Tumblr feminism from ten years ago that was about being a good role model for other women? The second it was replaced with pro-porn, pro-kink, pro-beauty industry, pro-plastic surgery, pro-religion "feminism" it was over, it became "who cares, as long as I like it". "Influencer", instead of being about speaking up about personal values and societal change, became synonymous with promoting weight loss products to insecure people.

In my experience, when I showed up at school or work without makeup, without a bra, with hairy armpits and legs, without even saying anything about it, several women would follow. When a popular, very dolled up student in my school admitted that she envied me, I told her that I would have her back. So she stopped wearing heels, even makeup, and started wearing sneakers and jeans. My niece is growing up knowing that women wear all sorts of colors and clothes, have body hair, can have short hair, don't have to worry about their appearance, and hopefully, when the outside world inevitably teaches her that "beauty is pain" or even that beauty matters, she will laugh in their face.

(Speaking of laughing in someone's face, a muslim (male) college classmate said after the Charlie Hebdo massacre that "people can spit on [his] mother, but they cannot make fun of the prophet", causing quiet tension and anger in a classroom with a female-majority, until a woman yelled back "your mom is the one who gave birth to you, dumbass!!" All the women laughed and he never dared saying misogynistic nonsense like this to us again.)

Every time one woman rejects sexist standards, she gives other women the courage to do the same, she makes girls understand that those standards are not natural, they can be free. That's why, once I rejected all of this, I never went back. (I didn't even do it because of feminism, I just valued practicality and comfort more than obedience and conformity.)

Governments and billionaires are shaking in their boots because women have less and less children. The makeup and lingerie industries have to change because way less women have been wearing makeup and bras during lockdowns. When we are honest and firm about what we want and reject what we don't like, that influences women around us and that influences society, that's how change is made!

[rf-times]

Hey I was wondering if I can get your insight on a repetitive phenomena I keep encountering , one that I think is important for radfems to think about when talking about the male gaze / beauty standards: I keep seeing woman ( on fds for example) understand that makeup/shaving legs/high heels etc is for the male gaze and that men will hate you whether you fit into the the hyper-sexualized or modest category. Basically a lot of woman acknowledge that misogynistic men will hate you no matter what and so with with this line of reasoning they still choose to perform femininity ( because men will hate you anyways). This is so frustrating to watch because it’s like they view femininity as a random aesthetic that men can’t seem to make up their minds about and see gnc woman ( a woman being in her natural state) as just an opposite head of a coin. It’s like they forget that femininity is beauty standard that isn’t neutral at all since requires lots of time and effort which in the process cause self esteem/ mental health problems when you pursue them. You can’t compare that to a woman embracing to be in her natural state ( neutral and there better for overall health). These woman they think that when radfems oppose femininity it’s us somehow still conforming to the male gaze because “you’re still caring what men think of you and dictating how you dress , why should I dress a certain way just to curve male aggression when it’s men that are the problem” which yes it’s true that male violence will never be a women’s fault but it feels like they misuse this line of reasoning to think that femininity is unfairly criticized when it’s not. We don’t oppose femininity just to spite men but because we’ve seen how chasing beauty causes all sorts of self esteem and body image problems ( because a womans natural, unmodified self in unacceptable) and that’s what they don’t get. And I hope I’m articulating this problem in reasoning I’m seeing since I really think radfems should rethink just saying “ men want you to do it anyways” when telling libfems that’s their decision to perform femininity is a choice. I just really think radfems should focus on bringing up the topic on how femininity is inherently harmful itself and was never anything neutral but something actively designed to keep woman busy and broken mentally as the main reason we oppose it. Even if femininity was 100% self imposed by woman into themselves it be the source of problems since it’s unnatural.

All of this 100%, femininity is so insidious, none of it is random and I really have no patience for the argument that "Well it's all just about how much headspace men are taking up in your head whether you're embracing femininity or rejecting it!" . As women under patriarchy, our very existence is seen as actively provocative, marked out. All of femininity and rituals surrounding it is designed to conform to this idea: we designate ourselves as existing to be looked at, that we exist to be sexually attractive and pleasing, by engaging in femininity we are implicitly agreeing that we exist to be observed, "pretty is the tax we pay to exist", that we are inherently provocative, etc.

Patriarchy is a pay to lose game for women so even if you conform to misogynistic ideas, the fact you're a woman is enough of a crime. As you said, it doesn't mean femininity is neutral. Objectifying yourself and being objectified is so harmful and literally destroys a healthy self view and ability to understand your own physical needs and establish boundaries. And I agree, I think radfems don't always present the best arguments for their points.

I quit Ovarit once I saw a thread about femininity where dozens of different women were arguing "Men don't oppress us because we wear makeup so it's not worth talking about femininity being relevant to feminism" like the idea that femininity is natural and normal seems so fucking pervasive everywhere.

[antiterf]

terfs really don't do much to dismantle gender or the patriarchy and it can be clearly seen by how they treat gnc people and especially gnc trans people.

being trans is already breaking the cisheteronormative view of "women are like this and men are like this" but gnc trans people take it a step further. yet not ONCE have i seen terfs reacting positively to a gnc trans man who wears a dress with a full beard, or a trans woman who doesn't shave or is butch. this goes especially for how they treat amab gnc people, even cis gay men because no matter what they'll hate their guts for being gnc, for wearing makeup or being feminine. they'll either scream it's "appropriation" (not a thing, genders can't be appropriated) or they'll scream it's a fetish and they're trying to get into women's spaces. it's gotten to the point where they start to shame gnc gay cis men and even drag, which was always an important part of queer history.

you can't win with them no matter what. all of their "activism" or whatever is performative bullshit, they'll only cheer on of smashing gender roles if it's done by cis white terfs.

Fun fact! Second wave feminism, which terfs have the ideals of, some groups had an issue with drag. An example is the Lesbian Feminist Liberation, where it's founder, Jean O'Leary, gave a speech about how drag was basically an insult to women. It was actually right after Sylvia's "Ya'll better quiet down" speech. It was when breaking gender norms with clothing was still illegal. It was when drag queen was basically another term for trans woman.

I know a lot of people won't click the link but O'Leary completely regretted that by the time she spoke about it here. She was an incredibly important in the gay rights movement, helping to found National Coming Out Day for example, and if I don't say that here then most people are going to paint her as an incredibly bad person today.

Seriously though you're right and it's exhausting. Even when it comes to gnc cis women, if you're not straight but not a lesbian, they care more about you not using butch than they do about you actually breaking gender norms. Even when you're a cis women, if you're intersex they don't see how much that can effect gender conformity and are often intersexist.

Native, Latino, Latina, Indian and Black women, honestly a lot of women with generally darker skin are looked at as "masculine" by default in a racist and colorist society but they don't fucking mention how they're required to reach a higher standard of white femininity to get by in a racist society. Asain women then face a stereotype of perfect femininity and often fetishized for that (I'm not sure how darker Asain women are effected by colorism mixing in here but I'm guessing it's a coin flip every fucking time).

No mention about how gender roles are across cultures besides "all of them are bad get rid of them" and especially no mention about how different cultures treat someone who breaks gender conformity.

There's no big action until trans people are involved yet they claim its for a movement that's against gender as a whole.

#notaterftip #not sarcasm #whatsintheinbox