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the-hoely-bleach · 3 years

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So it’s 5am and I haven’t slept yet, not sure if I’m gonna sleep at this point, so I wanted to talk about this post by ruby-whistler because I have Thoughts but didn’t want to derail the original post. (Also keep in mind it’s 5am so this is gonna be very stream-of-consciousness).

Disclaimer- my intention with this post is not to start a fight with ruby-whistler or any other Dream apologist for that matter. Just because we fundamentally disagree doesn’t mean we have to hate each other. I am simply thinking my thoughts and sharing them on the internet

Edit: this has been sitting in my drafts for like week as I debated on whether I should tag ruby-whistler, given my view of c!Dream versus hers. clearly, I’ve decided against it, as I really don’t want to start conflict, but I do want to get my thoughts out there.

[please assume that I am referring to the dsmp characters, not the content creators, unless specified otherwise]

So first off I would like to point out that ruby-whistler and I have very different views on Dream as a character. For the sake of clarity, Ruby is a Dream apologist, and I am not. Frankly it would take quite a lot for me to genuinely believe that Dream is deserving of sympathy, let alone a full redemption arc. That being said, Ruby brought up some interesting points that I’d like to explore.

For those who don’t want to read the original post, Ruby suggested that if Dream were redeemed, it wouldn’t because he suddenly realized he did a bad and was sorry(he knew he was doing a bad the whole time, just didn’t care), but instead had someone systematically disprove his learned toxic behaviors and mindset(ends justify means, attachment=weakness, etc.). Basically prove him wrong. And I actually like this interpretation!

To elaborate on my own feelings toward Dream, I think it would be very difficult, if not impossible, to fully redeem him from a writing standpoint. If not because he doesn’t want to be better, then because no on the server will be willing to help him. Characters like Dream rarely get redeemed because they’ve dug a hole for themselves. They either reached the point of no return, or the people they’ve hurt are(oftentimes justifiably) unwilling to forgive them, so with no support system they fall back into old habits. Sad? Yes. Understandable? Also yes. There’s a reason Dream’s character type almost always suffers from redemption equals death.

(for those who don’t know, redemption equals death is the trope in which a villain is so bad that the only way to somewhat redeem them is to have them die by heroically sacrificing themself. basically there was no way to justify their actions and not enough time for them to heal, but at least you know they’re trying. Examples: Star Wars’ Darth Vader, She-Ra’s Shadow Weaver.

So from a meta perspective, a Dream redemption is highly, highly unlikely. That being said, I do think it’s a bit of an icky mindset to have that certain people simply can’t change for the better. What Ruby mentioned is a smart way to get around this. I won’t be the first to point out that Pandora’s Vault is not exactly the environment for rehabilitation, especially not now. I think Dream is a terrible person, yes, but do I think he deserves to be tortured on a daily basis? No. Do I think he deserves to be kept a box with nothing to do but think and write? Maybe a little as karmic punishment for intentionally designing the place that way, but not forever(probably like a month At Most) All that’s going to do is make a bad person even worse. The way things are going, the most likely scenario is him breaking out and going on a fucking rampage. So yes, I think Ruby has a point with this whole positive reinforcement idea. Get the few people on the server who are still sympathetic to him to just sit and chat. Not to talk at him and tell him what they think, but just chat. Ease him into the idea that maybe he was wrong. It could possibly work.

At this point I’m going to stop talking about Dream and start on the implications for Tommy because oh boy. Obviously a Dream redemption would affect more people than just Tommy, but I’m mainly invested in his story and I’m also kinda running out of steam here so you get what you get

Now here’s where it gets tricky. In the event that Dream manages a full redemption arc, in which he does his best to right his wrongs and be an actual good person. Not Everyone Is Required To Forgive Him. Tommy, I’m talking about Tommy, do not make Tommy forgive him. (As said above it’d be understandable for a lot of people not to forgive him, but I am talking about Tommy right now)

Not only would this type of thing have terrible real-life implications, it just wouldn’t make sense for Tommy’s character. If Dream, even a fully reformed Dream, walked up to Tommy wanting to rebuild old bridges, even if he genuinely apologized, even if he did everything right, Tommy cannot and should not be expected to trust Dream. His first thought would be that Dream is trying the same shit he did in exile. The fact is, Tommy will have to live with his trauma for the rest of his life, and Dream should have to live with the knowledge that he caused that trauma, that he ruined someone’s life. Just because you’re a better person now doesn’t mean that the people you’ve hurt are magically also doing better.

(This is just a tangent about a potential direction the plot could take and is almost more of a Tommy analysis than anything so if you wanna dip now feel free)

Don’t get me wrong though, I also think it’d be interesting for Tommy to question himself later, if he happens to see enough hard evidence that Dream has changed. After all, this is a real-world dilemma, what do you do when your abusers heal? Abuse victims will often see their abuser bettering themselves and start to feel guilty for still being angry because “look, they’re not abusing me anymore, so I have no reason to still feel this way!” In this situation it could be constructive for the two to sit down and just talk things through. Still, I firmly believe that the best thing for both of them is to go their separate ways. Coexisting is enough in this case.

#it is now 7am help #dream smp #dsmp #c!dream analysis #dream smp character analysis #c!dream critical #long post #abuse tw #abuse mention #torture mention #let me know if I should tag something else #still not sure how to tag for this fandom #fill the void with character analysis

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synthmusic91 · 3 years

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thoughts? kjfhlkjdfh asking bc i rb'd the original post from u a bit ago because i agreed w/ original poster but i just saw this rb of it and wanted to know what u thought. ciaran(.)tumblr(.)com /post/652413157345820673/there-is-a-genre-of-posts-thats-obsessed-with-the

well first of all i hope this isn't a bait ask. this reply really doesn't deserve the time and effort i put into refuting it, but there was a point in time when i was emotionally confused by these..."arguments", so whoever u are, anon, i hope this is helpful. i also recommend some distance - literally, "go outside and touch grass", which is a lot more difficult than it sounds, but it needs to be done. anyway, here's my "analysis":

for context, here's what the post in question said:

and the tags:

at a high level, we can see that what ciaran is saying doesn't really respond to what OP was talking about. for this reason, i'm not going to bring in much of what OP said, because it's uncontested in this context, and look at ciaran's reply. i'll try to break this up...

EDIT: i had a long-ass response here, but then i realized it was dumb because the source material is dumb. i cut out most of it, but here are the highlights.

"there is a genre of posts that’s obsessed with the notion that fandom is something much larger, more prevalent, and more able to affect the way media is processed and consumed, than it actually is in reality."

so, as we can all see on tiktok and, indeed, on the electronic lore olympus billboard that takes up a side of a literal skyscraper, fandom is no longer the niche thing that "fandom olds" make it out to be. also, we can't ignore how many (white) fandom players go on and work in the industry (cassandra clare, whoever wrote 50 shades, man idk much of anything so there's probably many more). so this comment is sort of myopic. and since this is what characterizes the rest of the reply, well...it's not great.

also don't look up lore olympus; it's basically a dd/////lg fanfic that happens to be one of the most popular series on the line webtoon app, which is rated for teens...and for $1 to the creator's patreon, you can view not sfw p*dophilic art, so. also obviously i didnt do that; there was a video essay about this. i can't find it though

"ironically but understandably, these posts are made by people who are so terminally fandom-poisoned that they ascribe phenomenal power to it, and think of it as some great evil that must be defeated (by making posts on tumblr, which is obviously a very influential thing to do)"

"fandom-poisoned" is such a nebulous term, especially since it appears to mean "has had some really significant, (in this context) bad experiences with fandom." this is, first of all, a huge assumption to make about a stranger, and second, not the own they think it is. i'm just going to link this post, and hopefully you can see how it relates.

anyway, the "making posts on tumblr is meaningless" is um...interesting, seeing as off the top of my head i can think of two very influential tumblr blogs that talk about really important issues, Gradient Lair and Red Light Politics. I don't know as much about Red Light Politics, but Gradient Lair is frequently cited by academics (not getting into academia nonsense now but... -_-). also, they sound more pissed that the original post did gain traction, but whatever. this paragraph doesn't really make sense, but nothing here does, because i wasn't given much to work with.

"...and then because these people have basically no imagination and unfailingly pick on others for their own faults, they project their own experiences on everyone they perceive as being more ‘in fandom’ than them,"

jesus christ. i'm going not say anything about the tone of this because i put too much effort into this for some rando to call me a cyberbully.

i think what they're thinking about is how there appear to be some "fandom critical" people who try to, holistically, "ruin everyone's good time" by "stirring up drama" about popular fandom artists/writers/whoever else idk. oftentimes these people will also make jokes about fandom whatever, seemingly picking on random people's interests.

however, if you look at the long history of fandom racism, fandom's normalization of p*dophilia, and even general fandom harassment, and then you look at fandom's visceral, unwarranted reaction to criticism regarding these things, you can quickly see that disillusionment towards fandom is entirely reasonable. as for the joking, well...this an oversimplification but not everyone needs to like what you like. it sounds like they just need to get over themself.

and go “You, a 27 year old queer blogger who is into [tv show/anime/movie] an embarrassing amount, are now going to be the face of Capitalism” with no self-reflection or critical thought given to how fucking cringe it is-"

so, i'm regretting putting so much effort into this because this is so fucking long and i have to analyze this nonsense...it feels like i'm back in my feminist thought class. nightmarish. but anyway, this seems to deal with- [CUT FOR LENGTH. nothing important was missed].

EDIT 2: actually here's a summary of what I had. it deserves better than to be a response to this nonsense, but first it detailed how this took 1. the op's post and 2. a comment that we don't even know if op agreed with and misinterpreted that, and threw quite a fit about this- and i hate to say this because this term is misused so often by redditors, but- strawman.

I then went on to discuss how, for example, PoC can uphold systems of white supremacy. while obviously no person of color is going to be the "face" of white supremacy, the discussion still needs to be had, especially within that group. similarly, while fandom constituents may not be the face of capitalism, there needs to be a discussion, within fandom, on how they support and are defined by capitalist (and other) systems.

it was really too good of a point to be making for this trash reply. I could go say more, but I'm still trying to stay on topic, unlike ciaran.

"to act like random people on the internet, end users with no influence over corporate decisions, are the ones personally responsible for the fact that late-stage capitalism has destroyed popular art and culture in an increasingly sordid attempt to make money."

we've been over the "no influence" bit - because in fact fans do have influence, especially since media creators are literally fans, etc etc. i'm tired of people acting like they have no power and using that as an excuse to support and perpetuate harmful, easily avoidable behavior.

also, to act like the nebulous system of late-stage capitalism is the only cause of bad media is ludicrous. first of all, someone has to make these so-called "corporate decisions", and the people making artistic decisions are, again, overwhelmingly members of "fandom." this comment is really trying to keep marvel trash and lore olympus-esque nonsense in the same atomic, indivisible category lest someone catches a whiff of nuance.

"the above post is a great example of this phenomenon because op admits freely that they only think fandom is destroying media because they have been spending more time in fandom and thus have an over-inflated sense of its importance in greater culture. posting your own Ls indeed."

i'm so tired. this person literally has 120 works on ao3 like...who is spending more time in fandom.

and the tags:

#i assure you that fandom has no bearing on my actual real life #and if it does on yours. then that is your problem #it's also a very funny problem to

now this is just egregiously tone deaf. you do not need to do more than a cursory google search to find a bottomless well of examples of fandom harassment, threats, doxxing, and violence, much of which is racially motivated. you can see why it would be bad to make fun of this.

also the way that “fandom has no bearing on their actual real life“...120 fanfics on ao3. 120.

conclusion:

the reply clearly misinterprets of op's point, and as such, does not refute it. they responded to another issue altogether, which is that of the sanctity of their ~coping mechanism~ or whatever it is. their argument in this respect was, in my opinion, delusional and pathetic, especially given that they wrote it on someone else's unrelated post.

FINAL NOTE: i cut out lots of this because the reply went in so many different directions, so some stuff might not make sense. let me know if you have any questions.

#answered #anonymous #fandom #long post #q slur #s

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