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mattodore · 8 months

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The BOLD THE FACTS tag with Imani

tagged for my choice of oc by @pralinesims and @raiiny-bay <3

The Rules are simple! Tag people and name a character you want to know more about! If you want to let the person you tagged decide who to showcase, then don’t name a character and they can pick somebody. Easy! The person who is tagged will then bold the remarks below which apply to their character and, if they want to, include a picture with their reply!

[ PERSONAL ]

$ Financial: wealthy / moderate / poor / in poverty / other ✚ Medical: fit / moderate / sickly / disabled / disadvantaged / non applicable ✪ Class or Caste: upper / middle / working / unsure / other ✔ Education: qualified / unqualified / studying / other ✖ Criminal Record: yes, for major crimes / yes, for minor crimes / no (despite his attempts matthias has never successfully roped her into any of his mess lmao) / has committed crimes, but hasn’t been caught / yes, but charges were dismissed

[ FAMILY ]

◒ Children: had a child or children / has no children / wants children ◑ Relationship with Family: close with sibling (but it's complicated... imani has real love for her baby brother but she's also aware of the difference in how her parents treat the two of them and it's definitely impacted their relationship) / not close with sibling(s) / has no siblings / sibling(s) is deceased ◔ Affiliation: orphaned / adopted / disowned / raised by birth parents / not applicable / other

[ TRAITS + TENDENCIES ]

♦ extroverted / introverted / in between ♦ disorganized / organized / in between ♦ close minded / open-minded / in between ♦ calm / anxious / in between ♦ disagreeable / agreeable / in between ♦ cautious / reckless / in between ♦ patient / impatient / in between ♦ outspoken / reserved / in between (she's more outspoken when she's just with romeo or matthias, but when she's around her parents she gets quiet) ♦ leader / follower / in between ♦ empathetic / vicious bastard / in between ♦ optimistic / pessimistic / in between ♦ traditional / modern / in between ♦ hard-working / lazy / in between ♦ cultured / uncultured / in between / unknown ♦ loyal / disloyal / unknown ♦ faithful / unfaithful / unknown

[ BELIEFS ]

★ Faith: monotheist / polytheist / atheist / agnostic ☆ Belief in Ghosts or Spirits: yes / no / don’t know / don’t care ✮ Belief in an Afterlife: yes / no / don’t know / don’t care ✯ Belief in Reincarnation: yes / no / don’t know / don’t care ❃ Belief in Aliens: yes / no /don’t know / don’t care ✧ Religious: orthodox / liberal / in between / not religious ❀ Philosophical: yes / no

[ SEXUALITY & ROMANTIC INCLINATION ]

❤ Sexuality: heterosexual / homosexual / bisexual / asexual / pansexual ❥ Sex: sex repulsed / sex neutral / sex favorable / naïve and clueless / other ♥ Romance: romance repulsed / romance neutral / romance favorable / naïve and clueless / romance suspicious ❣ Sexually: adventurous / experienced / naïve / inexperienced (she's had sex before but her experiences have been few and far in between) / curious ⚧ Potential Sexual Partners: male / female / agender / other / none / all ⚧ Potential Romantic Partners: male / female / agender / other / none / all

[ ABILITIES ]

☠ Combat Skills: excellent / good / moderate (she's taken a self-defense class before and matthias has taught her a couple nasty tricks in case she ever needs them) / poor / none ≡ Literacy Skills: excellent / good / moderate / poor / none ✍ Artistic Skills: excellent / good (she sketches while she's waiting around; she's often drawing her own designs, fairies, flowers, snakes, pointy scribbles, or spirals) / moderate / poor / none ✂ Technical Skills: excellent / good / moderate / poor / none

[ HABITS ]

☕ Drinking Alcohol: never / special occasions / sometimes / frequently / alcoholic ☁ Smoking: tried it (disliked the taste and the smell) / trying to quit / quit / never / rarely / sometimes / frequently / chain-smoker ✿ Recreational Drugs: never / special occasions / sometimes / frequently / addict ✌ Medicinal Drugs: never / no longer needs medication (used to take meds for an old ballet related injury but she's good now) / some medication needed / frequently / to excess ☻ Unhealthy Food: never / special occasions / sometimes / frequently / binge eater $ Splurge Spending: never / sometimes / frequently / shopaholic ♣ Gambling: never (she's too disciplined for that) / rarely / sometimes / frequently / compulsive gambler

tagging @cowboycid for val, @helltrait for chris, and @tau1tvec for isa! and let me just rapid fire some of you who i think might have fun with this tag game!! @birdietrait, @wildmelon, @diwns, @fangs-trait, @deehya, @bunmou, and @spurgees

#@ed twenty ppl all together so hopefully if any of you wanted to join in then you got an @ :3c #river dipping #imani haut #echthroi #oc extras #ts4 #this took me so much longer than i thought it would thanks to ea wanting me dead and me having too much fun in cas but anywayyyyyyy #MISS MODELLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLL #MOST GORGEOUS WOMAN EVERRRRRRRRR #imani is probably the third most important character in the echthroi universe #sehyuk is kinda tied with her but that's really only bc he's how matthias and theo meet. shrugs.#like sehyuk is plot important in that way but imani is close with matthias and she gets close to theo later on <3 #theo's friends aren't rlly like that bc they mostly all dislike or in some cases hate matthias......... jdkfhnkhdnfjkhgjkdfgndkfkhndfhj #which like tbf............. would YOU trust your friend to MATTHIAS of all people? i rest my case #anyway i rlly wanna get into the backgrounds of all the echthroi side characters on here more but that would #require me to stop thinking exclusively abt mattodore for a few hours...... but. like. how could i do that. how.#but yeah...... i think imani sehyuk jordan and dutchie have the most fleshed out backstories out of all of the side characters #ummmmm anyway <3 this took a lot longer than i thought like where did the time go……. but okay.#i'm going to go back to my activity feed now bc i actually hadn't finished reading the posts i was tagged in in the first place 🧍#i swear the last two days i’ve been like okay time to log in and catch up and see how everyone’s been doing lately 🧎#only to then end up doing something like this for 4+ straight hours #i’m actually normally asleep by now but here i am…. i need to at least get thru my activity feed before sleeping like i need to do this 🔫

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suffarustuffaru · 8 months

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Reading your tags about how people miss the very obvious "there's some fucked up shit boiling underneath" regarding Otto, just gave me a sudden realization. Otto is the only character I know in fiction where they act all innocent and drive up the "clumsy", "just in the side-lines" and "straight-man (heh)" persona. When. Like no one's in the EMT camp is buying it. They know he's way more capable than he let's on. Meanwhile, the tomfoolery is completely brought on by the Western audience.

Like Otto is failing miserably to make other characters believe that he's not up to mischief, Roswaal even thinks it can bring his downfall. But the audience, who even sometimes *sees* his fucked up thought process, is buying it.

*head in hands*

no u bring up so many good points bc ive been really thinking about this for a while T^T its such an interesting phenomenon in the difference in perception otto has between the japanese speaking half of the fandom vs the english speaking half which can be explained by—yeah. media illiteracy mainly. im also putting my head in my hands anon T^T

because—okay sorry wkdndn im gonna get into meta again but hear me out bc this pattern of the fandom underestimating otto is interesting bc i kind of sort of i cracked the code maybe??? o.o i think the nature of otto is a character is that youre SUPPOSED to underestimate him at first, just like what happens sometimes in universe. i mean wayyy back then i definitely wasnt expecting him to get more depth added to him in arc 4–which was a pleasant surprise—which is also the reaction the vast majority of people have to reading/watching arc 4, along with the other vast majority reaction which is being a bit endeared to ottosubas friendship and respecting otto for being a good friend. and then its easy to underestimate otto bc of 1. all the chaos going on in rezero at any given moment and 2. hes almost always overshadowed by other characters doing worse shit or being more insane than he is and 3. otto of course damn well knows hes easy to underestimate and counts on that. thats what he did against roswaal in arc 4. plus—i mean even aesthetics-wise hes 100% DESIGNED to be easy to underestimate. his outfit and physical features make him look either friendly or frazzled or soft. so i think that the point is that we were supposed to be kind of fooled—at first.

because yeah, we’re endeared to otto. we respect him for helping subaru the way he did. we think that hes a nice person and we now support his actions especially after feeling sympathetic towards him after learning his backstory. (or at least the average audience member will think this wjdndn.) but like—you dont even NEED to look at any side content at all for it to dawn on you that theres something Wrong. with him. like all you need is main route arcs 3-8 aka ottos entire screentime thus far, because at arc 4 its so easy to overlook otto unless youre thinking a bit deeper (for example—he gets violent with subaru. like yeah its entertaining, its played for laughs a bit, yeah subaru needed to be snapped out of his own head, but was it 100% necessary??? why did otto have this response??? bc if you just look at the main timeline otto really decided to beat up subaru first. and bc this tendency is now Less Funny in arc 8).

but even if youre just looking at rezero face value, when you get to arc 5 its starting to get even more clear that ottos weird in the head. like we already saw him being very good at scheming and planning in arc 4–in arc 5, we find out about otto hiding the tome for a year. we find out WHY hes been hiding the tome for a year. the tome then leads the witch cult into priestella, so like—in the sense, otto is RESPONSIBLE for arc 5. but theres STILL a tendency sometimes for the audience to continue underestimating him even though by this point we’re getting more clues and many characters around otto, like you said anon, KNOW hes very capable. i keep wondering why this is, but arc 5 is, again, FULL of chaos and different storylines happening at once, so its so easy to almost kind of forget otto there in the background until he occasionally pops up again. plus otto serves an additional role as comedic relief sometimes—he spends all of arc 5 being bitchy and whiny (i say this affectionately HAH) about his camp being full of disasters, for example, so i think the natural response from the audience tends to be “aw otto!! what a silly guy!!” sometimes. you know? so its like. i think at this point some people tend to be like “yeah fair that otto was wary of roswaal and thats why he saved the tome…. anyway ooooh whats going on with these other plot points” wobsbss. its so fascinating bc—ok this might be my own personal experience but anyone reading this pls tell me if you agree or not—i dont think ive seen a lot of people actually even MENTION otto bringing the tome into priestella attracting witch cultists. and the english speaking fandom LOVES to go into certain characters’ wrongdoings so why gloss over otto????

the only explanation i have for this is that from arcs 3-4 underestimating otto is. kind of the point of his character UNTIL you get to arc 5 and the clues in the main story start seeping in even more. and also the western audience DOES have media illiteracy a lot. theres that too. just look at rezero content on youtube or reddit or fanfic sites or other things of that sort T^T but no yeah i think ottos nature as a character exacerbates it. youre supposed to start asking questions about him. youre supposed to start connecting the dots and then SUDDENLY its now EXTREMELY obvious in arc 7-8 and even while theres so much chaos going on its basically shoved in your face. arc 7-8 is just delivering on all the leadup that was arcs 3-5.

and i think that youve gotta be media illiterate for sure to NOT get that otto is not squeaky clean and innocent BY ARC 8. i think that ottos the deconstruction of the loyal best friend trope, and also a mirror into what subaru couldve been like if he decided to be more ruthless instead of jumping right to forgiveness and saving everyone, except sometimes that flies right over the audience’s head wkdndnd. it confuses me bc ive seen some people completely miss the point or completely agree with otto and overlook the Bad Parts of it or, you know, STILL think ottos perfectly sane—like T^T please.

and yeah so back to what you said about otto Not being underestimated In Universe—its such an interesting detail bc hes ALWAYS been simultaneously pathetic and Very Competent wjdndnd. but yeah no all of his friends have seen various hints and clues and evidence of what hes capable of. like even though he hid the tome from them successfully and even though hes hiding info now its INEVITABLE that its gonna blow up in his face one day. like you got characters like garfiel who literally saw otto punch the wall and break his hand in an unhinged fit of rage, julius who got snapped at by otto and while julius is a Bit naive definitely knows somethings off there, anastasia whos smart as hell and definitely knows not to underestimate otto, and roswaal who, like you said anon, literally went out of his way to stop otto from breaking his hand in another unhinged fit of rage and warned otto that he will literally be destroying himself if he keeps going on like this. its this fascinating dichotomy bc otto is NOT fooling anyone around him but at the same time his current schemes are mostly unnoticed—for now—which yeah i havent seen that in a lot of media!!! its an interesting balancing act bc people around him realistically know hes competent after seeing the Proof of that for the past couple arcs, but otto is still finding ways to try and Win…

which—again, the anger and violence is an extension of arc 4 otto!! this is the same guy!! hes always been like this!! ottos kind of stayed the same, deep down, this whole time and as an audience its ONLY shoved in our face with a big gigantic spotlight on it FOUR ARCS LATER, but it was hinted to all this time. and like you said anon—we LITERALLY see ottos fucked up thought processes. literally what sane person thinks any of that shit. its spelled right out for the reader HAH T^T which—yeah. media illiteracy…. and also this whole ask was a longer way of just saying that otto is VERY easy to see at surface level if youre media illiterate. but at the same time it should be very easy to figure out otto is A Bit Fucked Up bc tappei underlines it in bright red print!!! i think people sometimes just hang onto soft awkward silly otto and forget about the rest T^T either that or they dont think he cares about subaru at all. which. that phenomenon of thinking characters that do care about subaru Dont Care is also interesting to me bc why????? we’re at arc 8 and you STILL dont get it??? o.ooooo

but yeah apart from that….. i said this earlier but yeah sometimes some people agree with ottos realism in arc 8 which is. understandable, but the whole point is that he is EXTREME. with it. hes Not in the right here, but the same crowd that wants wanton revenge in rezero is gonna agree with that kind of stuff T^T ottos been lurking in the background so much so that tappei made it meta by doing the whole “walking in darkness” part of his character, so i guess people just. dont see ottos ACTUAL worst traits and instead think he would ditch subaru at the first opportunity or something. but at the point we are now, arc 8 ottos problem isnt that hed ditch subaru. his problem is that he would sacrifice the world for subaru. his problem is that he gets extremely angry at subaru for trying to do good. his problem is that hes trying to micromanage everything around him and is willing to sacrifice anything necessary to get what he wants. but sometimes people dont get that bc otto doesnt look sound or seem like a character thatd do that. the Underestimation part of his character is doing too well on. certain audiences. please T^T the soft and awkward and silly parts ARE part of his character just like all the Darker parts are!!!

additionally im also wondering if western audience perception of otto is also clouded by the fact that otto looks and sounds more feminine / androgynous and he doesnt have the appeal of Overt Power either……. he cant Really be waifu-ified… and he cant be used as a weird self insert like subaru…. and you Have to look at him closer to understand him…. and for some reason people dont tend to hate on him so aggressively, if anything people cant even see his actual canonical flaws half the time wkdndn so if youre not paying attention otto CANT be aggressively hated on bc theres nothing there if ur not looking at it….. and if youre not paying attention otto seems more “boring” compared to the others…… (not that people arent allowed to not have otto as a favorite character bc thats totally fair but im talking about the tendency to think hes Saner than he actually is.) but yeah these are just my guesses. i have no clue the western fandom is a little T^T some people unfortunately cannot read.

anyway. big thank you to the japanese fanbase for understanding ottos character more and making so much wonderful fancontent for him T^T also i think that we as a collective fanbase should stop underestimating otto in general bc its exactly what he wouldnt want and i think itd be really hilarious. <3333 make him explode with rage please

#rezero #ask #yeah sorry this response was so long wkdndnd but yeah ive been thinking on this for a while…#like ottos a very key side character thats given a lot of focus and yet hes?? largely ignored in english fanbase #but also rezero is a special case i feel bc for some reason a LOT of people misread it so easily. all the time. even fans thatve made it to #arc 8. why???? T^T rezero is so divisive i feel and for what??????? why?????? why do people miss this the story makes it obvious what its #about??? not to mention the LITERAL anime episode called THATS WHAT THIS WHOLE STORY IS ABOUT WNDNDN #tappei basically slamming u in the face with otto being fucked up fr too HAH….#its like ottos falling into almost the same kind of stuff that rems perception by some people does. which is u know ignoring her problemati #traits of Being Obsessed With Subaru. shes a loyal ‘waifu’ and ottos a loyal friend but he cant be waifuified so easily and hes not front #and center in the sense that rem was also the second main love interest skdndnd #which i think might be the common fandom problem also of overly focusing on romance bc people notice rems loyalty more than they do otto at #this rate. bc rems the waifu. ottos only the friend. hes ‘less important’.#its interesting to me. bc why??? with other characters ppl either erase all the good or the bad out of them but with otto hes just in stasi #hes just kind of. there.#rip otto the bad luck made him cursed to always be in the background #it just confuses me so much T^T the difference between jp fandoms perception of otto vs english fandom is STAGGERING #otto suwen #the other day i accidentally got dragged into an argument on reddit bc someone tried to correct me on otto and i was like ?????? WHAT SANE #PERSON DOES ANY OF THE STUFF ARC 7-8 OTTOS DOING…???#they were like ‘otto wouldnt do anything for subaru’ and i was like ‘lmao whys he trying to have louis killed then 😭😭😭😭’#‘whyd he try to let 50 million ppl die then?? 😭😭’#‘WHY DID HE DIE FOR SUBARU THEN’#like ottos not gonna indulge subaru with everything thats not what i mean by he would do anything for subaru. he would do anything as in he #would sacrifice so much for subaru. but some people just see subaru doing it then ignore otto trying to do the same thing but in a differen #font???

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seariii · 2 months

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Thinking about how in emotional stuff intp self has actually been popping out more often, even before... Questioning if that's good or bad... Maybe means I'm emotionally exhausted?

#she has helped before right...? ... i think she has only made people upset...#then again she's the one that has been able to put boundaries and that convinced us that it's okay...#hm.... she still feels bad tho... i wonder if people actually like that side of me... i feel like people wouldnt...#and like the ones that have seen it probably dont.... the bestie adores her so thats comforting #'its part of who you are' ... yeah... and intp self is very helpful... and i still think its fun the way she looks at the world #but yeah i think people dont like her... me..? um... its me but if i say me sounds too personal #im just thinking about previous moments and yeah she has made others upset and infp self has had to ease everything with kind words and #warmth... intp... is kind but... she... i feel... no. im being too hard on myself. she is a good person.#boundaries and caring about ourselves isnt bad. failing at social interactions doesnt make me a bad person either #... in any case i have to go now and catch the bus i should be at my grandma's by now #seari talks #our silly doodles #vent post #< kinda

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aropride · 6 months

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if you imagine that guy from saw and he's sawing his own leg off in the bathroom but it's just like, a normal bathroom and he's not chained to the wall or anything and he really didn't have to saw off his leg at all but he imagined a situation in which he would have to do that so he decided to get it over with as soon as possible. well that's how i approach all my interpersonal relationships

#text #i decided in my brain that my best friend hates me (she made a comment that hurt my feelings today and then a different comment #several weeks ago so basically shes sick of me and she hates me and wants me to die etc)#so now i am trying to dig my brain out of panic-mode trying to restructure my future around her inevitably getting tired of me #(& also trying not to upset or inconvenience her or anyone in any way in case this is the last straw and they Realize I'm A Bad Person)#and then also all my other friends will leave as well cuz they'll be like Wow if she didnt want to be around him anymore shes probably got #a good reason... and then everyone leaves me and i die. and yes i do this every time one of my friends accidentally hurts my feelings #you know when u accidentally step on ur pet's tail and u imagine a world where they hate u forever. yeah #it's like that except for someone steps on MY tail and i decide they hate me forever because my tail was in the way of their foot #does this make sense. Feel free to diagnose me in the comments #neg

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solarisgod · 6 months

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It aren’t about anyone here, but while it's already been stated on guideline, to make a personal psa in depth, if we notice the Starwake System and especially Micah are being infantilized / overly sexualized / excessively underestimated, it's a hardblock. A prominent pattern we notice is when most prompts we're given from a mun involves Micah being comforted / assisted, which we personally find it demeaning. Especially as an Asian individual who experiences all of these three aspects in the rpc / on the internet and especially in real life, I'm really not in the mood to let our muses, especially my most beloved Asian OCs, be subjected to such treatments.

With Micah in this case when it comes to infantilization and the underestimating, they are extremely emotional and sensitive as they can be childish and dependent, just as I am too, but no muses should be always babying and underestimating them. Micah is quite powerful and skilled, and they were quite known to be highly aggressive and wrathful when they were younger--- they CAN be so as wrath is actually their biggest vice, believe it or not, it's just they actively choose not to / try not to due to experiences and mindsets while they had gone through sessions with both their personal therapist and alter therapist with Phoebus who helped them find ways to manage their anger issues and intrusive thoughts. There's just so many layers and factors to their "childlike" traits that I can write essays on, but basically, their traumas and lack of certain experiences and treatments and having certain needs make them the way they are. I'd never write characters as silly or childish to poke fun or coddle and people shouldn't either nor narrow characters into one trait because they happen to have foolish or childish traits.

Being small and petite or emotional and gentle, what have you, should not make one a weak person and I really wish more folks can understand that, truly, speaking out for both characters and people.

#𓁹 ༑ ࿐ྂ ⩇⩇ : ⩇⩇ ⚠︎ [ 𝙴𝚇𝙸(𝚂)𝚃 : 𝙶𝙾𝙳 ] * ‹ PSA . ›#[ once more not about any of our current mutuals but it is based on past roleplay experiences with recent irl ones ]#[ got a white man few days ago looking at me funny with a ' you ordered this? ' when I was getting UberEats order from him few days ago ]#[ and was like ' hahah these are heavy be careful ' and pretended to drop the bags of food by quickly lowering 'em down ]#[ when I was going to reach out to take 'em from him ]#[ and my Asian placement colleague on Halloween told me I got ' baby hands ' which is just... well alright ]#[ I punched my phy. and emot. abusive and toxic mom as a self defense in few cases with these hands when she tried to hurt me ]#[ so... ain't so baby ]#[ I'm just exhausted being treated this way and the same with our OCs ; knowing being Asian is a factor to these mindsets and treatments ]#[ my significant beloved is the only person who can baby me as even I wouldn't want our other starmates to treat me that way ]#[ same with Micah being okay with Adoniram and Warlock and their starmates doing so ]#[ when it comes with a lot of build over time on the trust and confidence ]#[ that we're not being taken advantage of and being judged on and being underestimated all at once ]#[ just please be mindful how you're treating and thinking about someone ]#[ anyways yeah I'm just. yeah! this needs to be said. we extremely appreciate the read ; thank you so much ♡ ]

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misspickman · 2 months

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My unpopular bg3 opinion is they tried way too hard to make some of these characters mean and flippant which is meant to make the player more interested in them and clearly this has worked on many (good for you !) but personally i could not care less. If 80% of what a character has to say to me is bitchy i will simply leave them at camp for most of the game

#Is this a skill issue of mine yeah maybe. I just find it annoying #At best and off-putting at worst like is there no better way to show that shadowheart is going through stuff/have her be mean that isnt #Her getting pissy that you have respect for a bunch of dead slaves #That was wild. I didnt ask her either she just had the need to let me know she thinks these slaves aint shit bc they didnt fight back #Thanks larian!#Wild take maybe idk but i dont think that makes her interesting i think it makes her off-putting. In this case #I generally like shadowheart this just sure is a thing to have her say. And not give the player an option to respond in any way #Ill get over this single line but im mad now. This isn't the only instance of this #I guess both larian and bioware think that characters thinking slavery is kinda ok is not a deal breaker #Txt #I know that these characters soften during the game. I have played a fair amount of it. I did shadowhearts quest i know whats up. Still #In both her and astarions case i think theyre written to have some wild takes on whats Ok to do that get kinda swept under the rug #if you manage to shove them in a Good direction. But u dont. Actively see them grapple with any of it #They just suddenly go wow im better now. Yay. I suddenly dont want to enslave other people for my power (in astarions case)#Like this switch flipped bc of my one roll? Idk. Im not super convinced #I know this is how the game works. I just think it could have been written better

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wonder-worker · 1 month

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Margaret of Anjou’s visit to Coventry [in 1456], which was part of her dower and that of her son, Edward of Lancaster, was much more elaborate. It essentially reasserted Lancastrian power. The presence of Henry and the infant Edward was recognised in the pageantry. The ceremonial route between the Bablake gate and the commercial centre was short, skirting the area controlled by the cathedral priory, but it made up for its brevity with no fewer than fourteen pageants. Since Coventry had an established cycle of mystery plays, there were presumably enough local resources and experience to mount an impressive display; but one John Wetherby was summoned from Leicester to compose verses and stage the scenes. As at Margaret’s coronation the iconography was elaborate, though it built upon earlier developments.

Starting at Bablake gate, next to the Trinity Guild church of St. Michael, Bablake, the party was welcomed with a Tree of Jesse, set up on the gate itself, with the prophets Isaiah and Jeremiah explaining the symbolism. Outside St. Michael’s church the party was greeted by Edward the Confessor and St. John the Evangelist; and proceeding to Smithford Street, they found on the conduit the four Cardinal Virtues—Righteousness (Justice?), Prudence, Temperance, and Fortitude. In Cross Cheaping wine flowed freely, as in London, and angels stood on the cross, censing Margaret as she passed. Beyond the cross was pitched a series of pageants, each displaying one of the Nine Worthies, who offered to serve Margaret. Finally, the queen was shown a pageant of her patron saint, Margaret, slaying the dragon [which 'turned out to be strictly an intercessor on the queen's behalf', as Helen Maurer points out].

The meanings here are complex and have been variously interpreted. An initial reading of the programme found a message of messianic kingship: the Jesse tree equating royal genealogy with that of Christ had been used at the welcome for Henry VI on his return from Paris in 1432. A more recent, feminist view is that the symbolism is essentially Marian, and to be associated with Margaret both as queen and mother of the heir rather than Henry himself. The theme is shared sovereignty, with Margaret equal to her husband and son. Ideal kingship was symbolised by the presence of Edward the Confessor, but Margaret was the person to whom the speeches were specifically addressed and she, not Henry, was seen as the saviour of the house of Lancaster. This reading tips the balance too far the other way: the tableau of Edward the Confessor and St. John was a direct reference to the legend of the Ring and the Pilgrim, one of Henry III’s favourite stories, which was illustrated in Westminster Abbey, several of his houses, and in manuscript. It symbolised royal largesse, and its message at Coventry would certainly have encompassed the reigning king. Again, the presence of allegorical figures, first used for Henry, seems to acknowledge his presence. Yet, while the message of the Coventry pageants was directed at contemporary events it emphasised Margaret’s motherhood and duties as queen; and it was expressed as a traditional spiritual journey from the Old Testament, via the incarnation represented by the cross, to the final triumph over evil, with the help of the Virgin, allegory, and the Worthies. The only true thematic innovation was the commentary by the prophets.

[...] The messages of the pageants firmly reminded the royal women of their place as mothers and mediators, honoured but subordinate. Yet, if passive, these young women were not without significance. It is clear from the pageantry of 1392 and 1426 in London and 1456 in Coventry that when a crisis needed to be resolved, the queen (or regent’s wife) was accorded extra recognition. Her duty as mediator—or the good aspect of a misdirected man—suddenly became more than a pious wish. At Coventry, Margaret of Anjou was even presented as the rock upon which the monarchy rested. [However,] a crisis had to be sensed in order to provoke such emphasis [...]."

-Nicola Coldstream, "Roles of Women in Late Medieval Civic Pageantry," "Reassessing the Roles of Women as 'Makers' of Medieval Art and Culture"

#historicwomendaily #margaret of anjou #my post #henry vi #yeah I don't necessarily agree with Laynesmith's interpretation (that it was essentially Marian with an emphasis on shared sovereignty)#which she herself says is 'admittedly very speculative'#as this book points out that interpretation tips the balance too far on the other side and has a somewhat selective reading #It's also important to remember that this interpretation was not really reflected across wider Lancastrian propaganda at the time #which isn't really talked about - let alone emphasized - as much by historians but remained focused on the King #For example: look at the pro-Lancastrian poem 'The Ship of State' which hails Henry VI as a 'noble shyp made of good tree'#and emphasizes how he was widely supported and defended by many great Lancastrian lords and the crown prince #but not Margaret who was entirely absent #also look at the book 'Knyghthode and Bataile' (presented to Henry) and Fortescue's various pro-Lancastrian texts in the 1460s #even the recording of that Yorkist trial which was iirc reported in the 1459 attainder #all of these were entirely conventional and highlighted the presence and importance of the King. Margaret was not emphasized.#so either the Lancastrians were impossibly inconsistent about what message they actually wanted to convey about the role of their own queen #or the Coventry pageants were not actually meant to emphasize Margaret in the lieu of Laynesmith's interpretation #and would not have been viewed in such a manner by contemporaries #I think we should also keep in mind that we don't really know what Henry VI's condition was like at the time of MoA's entry to Coventry #we know he had been injured in St. Albans and had only just recovered from his second illness #this is especially important to consider since we know he had also arrived at Coventry before Margaret but much more discreetly #and was not welcomed by any pageants that we know of. This is VERY unusual and can be best explained if we consider the fact that he #may have simply not been in the right state (be it physical or state of mind) for it at the time #in which case the pageants for Margaret should be viewed as more of a improvisation/cover-up/temporary measure to bolster prestige #or Henry may have deliberately taken a more discreet role to emphasize the position of his heir - especially important after the long wait #imo I think Kipling's interpretation (ie: that they addressed Margaret but really referenced the prince & heir) makes a lot more sense:#'Coventry [...] regarded Margaret's entry as a kind of triumph-by-proxy: the Queen entered the city but Coventry received its Prince'#though I think he tends to view Margaret as more of a cipher (and has a very questionable view of Henry VI) which I also don't agree with.#The pageants very much DID focus on and reference her but they most prominently emphasized her 'motherhood and duties as queen'#ie: I think Kipling and Laynesmith tip too far on opposite sides and I think this interpretation takes the most realistic middle ground

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fideidefenswhore · 3 months

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Who is your most hated Seymour? For me, it's John, Thomas, Edward and Jane.

roflmao, tbf, i know intellectually that there's not enough there there to justify hating john seymour, but he does give me bad vibes...whatever happened with catherine fillol was weird and i do get the sense he was involved even if not in the rumored way. and also, when siblings hate each other to such an extent, it's often bcus they were pit against each other by their parents, so i get the sense he was not a good father (there's some debate on whether he died late 1536 or 1535, tbf, but if it was the former it's strange that none of children seemed to mourn his death, that he wasn't mourned at court as the queen's father, etc) . margery doesn't have enough about her known for me to judge; it's sort of weird to me that this stereotype has fallen she and jane had a bad relationship and her favorite child/daughter was elizabeth (this occurs in like...several...novels). we don't have an equivalent positive remark to 'next to mine own mother, no woman alive i know better' (AB, about her own, and to bridget wingfield), nor any records of them often being in each other's company during significant events or eras, but we don't have anything negative either. i get you have to make choices in fiction and 'neutral' is not an interesting one but like...damn.

what's interesting about edward and thomas is that, even before their sister becomes queen, edward is not spoken of well by his contemporaries. very early (iirc, 1535) on, his 'small conscience' is decried, and he becomes such an avaricious figure that cromwell and the king have to interfere in his attempts to manipulate and loophole property laws to his own advantage and the impoverishment of others (and, not usually in his favor, despite him being a royal in-law). thomas, however, seems like he's better liked in the 1530s, although this can maybe be attributed to him being more of a nonentity (a comparative example is some tudor authors insisting GB was 'better liked' than his sister anne-- not true, it seems-- or more often, that their sister mary was...which is probably true, but also probably more indicative of relative lack of power and positions and leverage than 'kinder' personality)...it's not until the 1540s that we get comments of the same genre ("somewhat empty of manner"). thomas thus seems more like a figure of gradual corruption, his arrogance was increased was by his nephew becoming king, it seems, and resentment brought out an ugly side of his character (arguably, the same with edward, just earlier on).

it's extremely unpopular to say this on here, but yeah, jane is definitely not a favourite of mine, either. but i don't think my reasons for this are really common...i don't care if she slept with henry before marriage, i don't care if she didn't, i just find her biographers weirdly contradictory in their judgements of her character, the nature of her rise, and her own beliefs. there's also like, this sense of historic illiteracy from some of her defenders...joining a royal household (as far as the most prestigious positions, that is) was not the equivalent of serfdom (as in, they could leave at any time). jane's supporters were courtiers who hated anne, so it's reasonable to assume she did, as well. so, there's this sort of moral hypocrisy about jane as a figure and her advancement and how she came to her position that has always prevented me from warming to her as a figure. 'she hated anne and all she stood for' explains her involvement in her downfall, but not her securing the position in her household in the first place. and by virtue of her close proximity to anne as queen, she also knew that it was nigh impossible that she was actually guilty of the accusations of adultery.

what else...her defenders insist that the oaths of supremacy and succession were anathema to her moral compass, yet she likely did have to have had taken them herself, just as a subject, and if not that then definitely as a member of anne's household. this wouldn't have martyred/imperiled her life, althought it probably would have her career (elizabeth darrell never took these, so i wonder if the penalty for women was different...? barton is often cited as an example but this was not in her indictment. princess mary seems to almost have been a victim of this, but it might've been more that her signing was more important since she was a rallying point for dissenters).

and even if jane never took these, the presence of noblewomen serving anne as queen lent to her greater image of royal legitimacy. she had to have known that, and if she didn't believe her position was legitimate...then why be part of that tapestry? there's not an equivalent to her predecessor to be made here, not when anne left her own predecessor's household and began her own as soon as she came to believe catherine was not legitimately queen or henry's wife. any credulousness towards contemporary report of this time would suggest anne was extremely hostile towards her rival, but there is a difference between declaring that you'd sooner watch your rival hanged before revering them and, well...actually doing that (...essentially, if not literally).

actually, i don't think there's actually much to suggest jane was set against the religious supremacy unless you make some suppositional leaps (the dissolution wasn't so explicitly connected here, her support of mary as princess, even if rather cosmetic, could be seen as support for her decision not to take those oaths herself for nigh on two years...). nor against succession acts as brought by parliament, since the same illegitimized any potential rivals to her future children, and she seemed to make a point in one of her only pieces of writing we have in emphasizing edward's legitimacy (implicitly, at the expense of her stepdaughters).

the narrative fiction i probably dislike about jane the most is this idea that she was so reverent of catherine's memory, it's really fucking weird, honestly... it bothers me because i know it's embellished to increase reader/viewer (the tudors comes to mind) sympathy and somehow for me it does the opposite, lol. there's something about the concept of her trading on the memory of this beloved woman (who, herself, probably didn't even remember jane, there's nothing to suggest any kind of friendship between them) who was exiled, this woman whom jane did not a single thing for (not even abstaining from joining the household of her rival), that just really grosses me out. henry was the one who was her husband, and obviously he was a fucking asshole to and about her, but there's at least something more...direct, in his attempted erasure of her memory. it's always bothered me that it's never acknowledged that the antecedent (which was carried on throughout) to jane's queenship was the erasure of both her predecessors, the illegitimization of both their daughters, both of them being subordinated, and, more or less (mary present for christmas, elizabeth not, but both there during the rebellions) equally expelled from court.

#purplefictionlover #tl; dr that got way longer than i expected . lol #but yeah honestly jane would be a more appealing figure to me were this not the case #if she were sort of neutral about coa. idt i have hated a fictional character as much as i hated weir's iteration of her lmao #sobbing in her bed for 24 hours straight the day of anne's coronation...#sobbing in her bed for 24 hours straight the day of coa's death....#i felt oh so kh in the tudors #'it's not aBOUT YOUUUUUU '#bcus the thing is that if she was... how did she justify. any of that?#did she just hate herself? the answer alison weir gives us is yes and that was exhausting to read #she is very very self-loathing in not having been able to do anything for catherine and she hates her family for 'making' her join anne's #household and i fell asleep and snored so deeply it registered on the richter scale #the belief from this genre of tudor authors seems to be women are just disgusting if they had any sort of agency #(weir really reduces anne's agency as well...at least early on #and they're both very very dull as a result)

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