#but at least mike understands the difference between romantic and platonic. el did not know that difference | Explore Tumblr Posts and Blogs

you-usuratonkachi · 2 years

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I don't know.

I mean, I've been on here long enough now that I know which theories about Mike are the most popular. I know most Bylers believe that Mike is dealing with IH from the start and that he actually always loved Will romantically, he just never knew and that he confused what he feels for El for romantic love because of all his preconceived notions of what's socially right of him and all that. I know most like to believe that he only feels platonic love for El, but... well, I never felt like that.

Rewatching ST from the start, I feel even more strongly about this. Mileven were beautiful. In a "they are children, both of them don't really know how it works, but they are still gonna try it out" because... well, because that's what children do. They feel good about something, they do it, it's as simple as that.

I think Mike genuinely liked El romantically. "Fell in love" with her, if you will, in the way 12 years old fall in love, at least. Have you ever? You cannot compare it to what you might feel in an adult relationship, but that doesn't mean it's not romantic... It's just proportioned to your understanding of the world.

El? El just knew she felt safe and liked Mike. And it's very very true, she should have experienced life before engaging in a romantic relationship with Mike, but even that is technically part of life? It's not like Mike was an adult manipulating her into it, Mike was almost as clueless as her. Yes, he had an idea of what it was supposed to be like, but he was also figuring it out. In the same way they figured out how to dance together at the Snow Ball. He knew what dancing was supposed to be like, but he didn't know how to dance. She didn't know anything. They just got on the dance floor and did whatever. That's basically their romantic relationship.

It's really quite the same for Will? He liked Mike romantically from the start, but he was a child and he didn't know what to do with all that. A lot of trauma ensued and eventually, with age, his feelings grew too.

What I believe has happened to Mike and El instead is the opposite.

Both of them have grown as people, season after season, and it feels to me like what felt like was really big and amazing between them, does not really compare anymore.

In S3 it feels already like it's less epic love and more teenage hormones, which is realistic, they are that age. But a relationship without communication is not gonna survive after childhood and you see that with them a lot. They just don't know how to talk to each other and in S4 they get to a point where the world makes a lot more sense to both and whatever dancing they are doing is uncoordinated in the worst way. They bump against each other, they trip, they feel awkward.

The excitement of discovery is gone, what's left is the more adult knowledge that perhaps they would rather not be on the dance floor together anymore.

That doesn't mean they never wanted to.

They have just grown out of it.

Their relationship has naturally come to an end, because they are different people from what they were when they got together.

Does that mean none of it has been real?

I think saying that would be invalidating their feelings and how they felt in the moment, all the first experiences they had together and what one helped the other understand about themselves, what it is to grow up.

If Will can have romantic feelings for Mike at 12, all of them might have had them.

Mike loving El back then? I believe it.

Now though? I think she is right... he doesn't love her anymore. He cares for her so much, because of course he does! She is important, she will always be, he's just... stopped dancing.

Mike loving El (in his 12/13-year-old capacity) doesn't invalidate his feelings for Will. He could have had romantic feelings for Will this whole time too, just never recognized or entertained them. It's very true that his relationship with Will was always special. The issue is, he never figured he could step on that dance floor with Will.

The issue is, now that Mike seems to be looking around himself, is he gonna ask Will for a dance?

#byler #I know this dance metaphor has gotten out of hand #but I truly feel like this #I think mileven is a beautiful couple that completed their arc #that's all #mike never feeling that way about her makes no sense to me I'm sorry #I believe he did #he just doesn't anymore #he's just broading his perspective #he's been too concentrated on El #but he AWARE of it now #El is going through the same thing #they are growing out of their relationship #does it mean byler endgame #not necessarily #but there was no need to get here and make the triangle happen if it was gonna lead nowhere #it's still fiction after all #so yeah

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tineteenieworld3 · 1 year

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I actually really love the El and Mike argument. Not only was it performed beautifully by both actors, but it’s very complex because you can’t label either of them right or wrong, not completely at least.

So, we can see Mike’s side. He’s extremely confused, all he’s heard from El for months was lies and that was probably very shocking. He really does try, he approaches it delicately and attempts to relate to her.

El shuts him down almost immediately. We can sense her frustration in this scene and I think we need to talk more about the fact that she was right. Mike can’t understand, he doesn’t really get what it’s like because she’s not just talking about bullying. We know that because we see her POV. There’s so much going on in her head. Her life was taken from her and she’s probably feeling so is isolated because that fact was really shoved in her face when she moved to Lenora and tried to be a normal teenager.

She tells him he doesn’t understand because she is very different. She didn’t get even a remotely normal childhood and doesn’t have anyone she can really relate to. She feels like an outsider like the others, but in her case she actually is one. That’s what she’s trying to communicate in that scene to him but they both don’t understand eachother enough to not have things directly spelled out for one another. People say that she was wrong and Mike does understand cause she’s seen him get bullied, but in media dialogue holds very little of what the character actually means. El is completely right in her statement, no matter how harsh it may feel.

On Mike’s side, he’s trying. He’s trying to understand what she’s saying, trying to reassure her that it’s not true, but what she really needed in that scene was for someone to just listen instead of telling her ‘no you do belong, what are you talking about?’ But Mike isn’t doing anything wrong because he’s trying to make her feel better. He doesn’t know what she wants and that’s not something that’s his fault, but it causes El’s frustrations to peak extremely quick.

He also doesn’t lie to her. It’s upsetting to El and to him as well, but he’s not lying. He doesn’t tell her he loves her because he doesn’t want to lie to this person he really cares about. Of course he has his gaslight moment, but Mike as a character handles intimate confrontation terribly. When it comes to handling personal relationships he really struggles to let his guard down. Well, except with Will, but with everyone else he’s extremely defensive. We can go back to season 3 with El but more so, season 1 with Lucas.

Both of them are right in this conversation and wrong. El is right, he doesn’t understand and no one understands. Mike is also right, she’s not talking to him or explaining what she’s feeling so he has nothing to work off of.

It’s a wonderful scene. People who ship El and Mike don’t like it for a multitude of reasons, but mostly because there’s no romantic chemistry between them at all. They say that Finn is a bad actor when really he did his job perfectly. El and Mike really care about eachother and they have a long history, this conversation is intimate in a platonic way. But we can also look at this through a new light when Mike says the line, “who says that I didn’t?” It is gaslight like, but there’s also truth to it. Of course he loves her and cares about her. He probably does think she’s being ridiculous in some light because he can’t imagine not loving and caring about her, it’s just not in the way a boyfriend should. So even then, he’s not lying, there’s just so much bubbling underneath for both these characters.

Either way, I really enjoyed that scene because it was so hard to side with just one character.

#byler #stranger things #mike wheeler #el hopper

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will80sbyers · 2 years

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I saw that ask about the monologue and I hope you're not tired of talking about this. I feel like I don't know what to think about it and the details of it anymore because I've seen so many different takes.

Mike didn't understand that Will was talking about himself (which is what I believe). But if he's supposedly in love with Will why was he all happy to hear about "El's" feelings and smiled like that?

Or he did understand what Will was saying and then thought Will pushed him away by telling him to confess to El in SBP?

Also, is Mike aware he's in love with Will? Because if he's aware that means he consciously lied to El about his romantic feelings in the monologue. If he meant it platonically, is El aware of that?

If he's not aware, why did he smile at Will like that in the van? And why did he reject his hug at the airport?

If he bought Will's lies and felt reassured about his relationship, why did he hesitate for a second before saying ILY?

If he didn't buy Will's lies and wanted to break up with El before the monologue, does that mean he knowling lied to her by making it at least seem romantic?

I'm sure there's more, I just don't know how to piece it all together anymore 😫 Can you help? I believe in bi Mike btw.

Hello there! This is going to be a long one lmao I think I have already explained all that I think about the new season in my bi mike power point, but here's a recap:

Mike in season 4 has just started to understand that he feels in a different way towards Will, he likes him and this is making him panic a little because he's a boy, and he's confused because he does like El too, so he doesn't get what the hell is happening to him or why he feels so weird when he's with Will, he does not entirely understand his own feelings yet, he still thinks that what he feels for Will must be platonic (or at least he's trying to convince himself of this) but he feels jealousy towards him, he missed him more than anyone else, even El and he feels himself only when they are together, he wants Will in his life and at the same time he was having doubts about his own relationship with El because it's being more and more difficult to keep up the act with her, he feels inferior to El, so he tries to be more cool because he's scared that she will leave him… this doesn't make him feel good about himself, and he was having problems about saying the I love you to her because of a few reasons, he doesn't exactly know why yet - he was reflecting on it himself during the whole road trip with Will - that's why he says to him that he didn't know what to say to El, he didn't know exactly why it was so difficult for him to say it… the reasons are:

1 ) he was not feeling sure of feeling that and didn't want to lie to her

2 ) he subconsciously knows he has feelings for Will and that blocks him from fully committing to El

3 ) he felt that saying the I love you would have made him and El closer and that means that if El leaves him after that then the fact that he was vulnerable with her meant that it would hurt so much more ( this is what Mike himself tells her )

so Mike arrives in Lenora and he tries to be the perfect boyfriend for her even if it doesn't feel right, he is putting up an act and trying to be cool for El and be fun and not a nerd, he is at the same time feeling jealous about Will and scared that Will doesn't want him in his life anymore, his mind is split between them and that makes him act irrational and makes him accuse Will of not telling him about El having problems when she lies to him because in reality he is angry at Will for not reaching out more to him.

anyway… the whole bully thing happens and Mike starts to feel a bit betrayed by El because she lied to him for months, but he still likes her and wants to resolve their problems and keep that relationship even if it's not working out… so Mike makes some dumb comments at dinner but the morning after he feels like shit about it and he wants to resolve things with El… he goes in her room to talk and they have the fight

Mike acts defensive the moment El talks about how he can't say the I love you to her because he doesn't want her to know the true reasons because if she knew she would break up with him and he doesn't want that. He still loves her (platonically) and idealizes her in his mind. He does believe she is amazing and all of that, but he doesn't see her as El, he sees her as his super girlfriend… that's not true love but he doesn't get that yet!!!

El understands that he's not in love with her during their fight, so she decides to leave him behind and go to take her powers back and leaves a note for him that was basically a half break up note

Mike now is panicking because he's worried she's going to dump him again… he now thinks he should have just said the I love you to her even if he was not sure.

Will helps him calm down and makes him remember that when they see each other again they can fix things… but the more Mike talks with Will the less he's sure that he actually wants to fix things with her… he doesn't feel like they are meant to be, him and El… he doesn't feel like El understands him.

Will gives him something else to think about when he says that they have to go back to Hawkins and save their friends, he prepares but he also starts thinking about how much he loves Will, his best friend, and how much he's grateful that he has Will in his life. He decides he has to talk to him before they leave, he goes in his room and starts thanking him for helping and starts apologizing for how he acted with him

Why didn't he hug him at the airport? Because he was feeling awkward because he has a crush on Will, he's not completely aware, or like.. he is but he's trying to push that down and ignore it and stay best friends… he is terrified of things changing between them and thinks that Will is straight anyway lmao

Anyway they depart and start the journey and his feelings towards Will are growing, that's why we have the triple take in the desert, he's feeling so so close to Will and noticing him in another light (a gay light lmao) but at the same time he is still worried about El and he is still trying to be normal and has the idea of fixing things with her…

he talks with Will on top of that car and Will tells him something that makes him think:

Yes, he is scared that El will not like the truth - the truth is that he is not sure that he loves her. Mike doesn't get that Will was talking about himself too because Mike thinks Will is straight.

They act as a team when they go to Suzie and then, finally, they are now in the van:

In the van Mike is thinking about his relationship with El and he is feeling like maybe they were never destined to be together, he likes her but he feels like she's too much for him, he doesn't feel worthy and the relationship is not feeling as it should… he feels like El doesn't need him at all and… he is confused… he does like her but there is something that is not working and he is terrified of losing her from his life so he does want to keep dating her at this point

this is were Will should have shut the fuck up lmao

Will starts talking and gives Mike all the reassurance he needed to keep thinking that he can fix his problems with El.

Why does Mike look at Will that way if he doesn't understand that Will is talking about himself?

because he is having a reaction to Will's words, he is in love with his words, and also has a reaction to Will himself but he doesn't realize that fully in that moment, I think he half hopes that those words were only from Will but he believes Will's lie that they are from El even if it doesn't feel like it, because he believes Will would not lie to him.

If you notice, every time that Will talks about how the painting is from El he looks a bit disappointed and that's because what he really was trying to say before was that even if he doesn't want to lose her he is not sure about him feeling romantic love for her. When he smiles at the end of the speech that Will makes that smile is fondness and gratitude for Will being there for him, that smile is about his own love for Will alone, that doesn't mean that he realized he is in love with Will yet, that means that he is grateful for Will existing and is feeling feelings for him…

they go on and they find Eleven in the desert and in the reunion we can see a look of inner conflict on Mike's face when he looks at both El and Will, this is because he is feeling conflicted and confused. He likes El but has feelings for Will too and is now more aware that he has feelings for him… plus the reunion with El didn't feel romantic to him, he didn't have butterflies, he didn't feel like kissing her.

they go on and yeah, he's not sure but he feels like they have to talk and fix things, so in the pizza place he tries to talk to her, I think he has the intention of saying the I love you, but it's not working out, he's not feeling it… the words don't want to come out of his mouth.

they get interrupted… and boom!

El is dying, Will is telling him to say what he feels for El, meaning that Will doesn't have any feelings for him in Mike's mind… Mike does love El, he believed that El feels like Will said in the van and wants her alive and is terrified of losing her, so he starts talking but… he hesitates before saying it because he is forcing it out… because subconsciously he knows that what he is saying he is saying it in a platonic sense… he is super confused, but he wants to help so he starts his monologue and all that he says he means it… it just is in a platonic sense!

after he says it he thought that would solve all the problems in their relationship, but this doesn't happen, El understood that she doesn't feel in love with Mike when Mike told her he loves her, so now El is unsure on what to do next, she doesn't want to hurt Mike… Mike is heavily confused about how he feels, but one thing that he knows for sure is that he wants to be near Will all the time…

I think El wants to break up with Mike now but I don't think she is 100% sure that Mike meant that platonically

Mike believed Will's lie and that's what will cause drama next season because when he finds out that those were not El's feelings all the base for his own monologue for El breaks down, that will make him angry with Will, and he will want to know why Will lied… the love confession happens, Will is probably going to be in danger and this springs Mike into the realization that he's actually in love with Will Byers - they kiss, they live happy forever!

Hope this helps!! :)

#bi mike wheeler #byler #will byers #mike wheeler #ask #el hopper byers

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cncuwau · 2 years

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the script is finally out and i have a lot of thoughts. god.. first of all, i think it’s very byler-coded (“his face can light up a room” like BRUH, and also like iiiiih, lmao no i’m not fangirling idk what you’re talking about). we don’t get very much of mike’s perspective (kinda sus imo 👀), but what we do get, i think is very very interesting..

SO, “what are you, like 12-years-old still, dude?”.

i don’t know why (i do know why) this line screams internalized homophobia to me.. but it sure does! i don’t necessarily think this is mike’s exact train of thought, but i do think it is from his perspective. but just because it’s something that may have popped up in his head, it doesn’t mean that’s how he’s actually feeling. i think that line absolutely is a call-back to mike and will’s fight in s3. in that fight and throughout the whole of s3 mike’s train of thought usually comes back to the fact that he feels he needs to grow up. to him, that mainly means letting go of the feelings he has towards will, and getting a girlfriend. focusing on what boys at his age “should” be interested in and care about. and that’s certainly not his very-non-platonic feelings for his guy best friend. i am wholeheartedly sticking to the theory that mike has always had feelings for will, he’s ALWAYS been in love with him, but has never realized the extent of his feelings because in s1 and s2, when he was younger, he felt those feelings were normal. they were kids and will was special to him because he was his best friend, and nothing mOoOore??? he didn’t have to take it one step further than that. mike can’t tell the difference between platonic love and romantic love to save his fucking life man. i.e. why he’s together with el. BUT, as he got older and the feelings for will didn’t go away, and maybe were even stronger than the feelings he was supposed to have for el, he had to find an excuse for that. he couldn’t accept that fact. accepting that fact would mean accepting something he didn’t believe himself to be. mike doesn’t at this point know that he’s gay (or queer). he doesn’t want to be different, he wants to fit in, at least in s3. so he comes to the conclusion that feeling this way is childish behavior and how will feels is childish too. they HAVE to grow up at some point. and to mike that meant leaving those feelings behind, even though he realistically can’t, he isn’t able to. queue repression and projecting onto will.

in their s3 fight, after will gets upset, mike impulsively tells him “it’s not my fault you don’t like girls”. guys, the first sign of projection. it’s beautiful :’) and really fucking sad, but anyway.. he also says “we’re not kids anymore”. here he’s not referring to the dnd campaign, we know mike loves dnd and in s4 he’s gone back to pursuing the things he likes, unapologetically. but he’s talking about him and will, their relationship. he’s basically saying “we can’t go on like this, we can’t act on these feelings. we’re supposed to grow up and do grown-up things and that does not include spending every minute of every day with each other. it’s not normal anymore, that’s something we did, and could ONLY do, when we were KIDS”. he doubles down on this way of thinking when he then says “i mean what did you think, really? that we were never gonna get girlfriends? that we’re just gonna sit in my basement all day and play games for the rest of our lives?” and will responds with “yeah. i guess i did.. i really did.”. OUCH. the first time i watched that scene i thought will was overreacting and i didn’t understand the extent of why he was SO upset. yeah, mike was being a dick but it felt like i was missing something, and what i was missing was that this conversation really wasn’t about dnd at all. the subtext is really fucking strong in this one, and on second watch, i realized it’s not even subtext. when i first heard mike say “i mean what did you think, really? that we were never gonna get girlfriends?” i assumed he was talking about the whole party. like did you not expect me, OR lucas OR dustin to get girlfriends and for our dynamic to change? BUT, what i realized is, he’s not talking about the whole party. he’s talking about just him and will. we know will’s not had any issues with lucas or dustin getting girlfriends. it’s actually been the complete opposite, he’s been supportive and happy for them. the only relationship he’s had a problem with is mike and el. it’s the only relationship that’s caused him pain and he even blames SOLELY mike for their party falling apart in this very fight. NOT lucas. NOT dustin. MIKE. “YOU’RE ruining our party [...] YOU’RE destroying EVERYTHING, and for WHAT? so YOU can swap spit with some STUPID GIRL?”. if this fight was about the whole party, lucas and dustin would be there. but this is NOT about them. it’s about mike and will, JUST mike and will. and again, mike’s response confirms that take on things. “el’s not stupid!” and “it’s not MY fault you don’t like girls”. mike is aware that will is having trouble with MIKE AND EL’S relationship SPECIFICALLY. that’s what he’s alluding to when he then says “did you really think that WE were never gonna get girlfriends?”. he’s literally saying:

haven’t you realized that YOU AND I would HAVE TO get GIRLFRIENDS at some point?

and i have to say that realization BROKE ME. because that little shift in narrative changed the tone of the scene SO MUCH for me. it hit so hard. FUCK. like mike’s basically saying “did you never think you and i would have to move on for each other and conform to what society expects from us?”. ow ow ow ow. it really hurts to think that mike has convinced himself of that, and will’s response just solidifies that theory while also making it so much worse, because he says “yeah. i guess i did.. i REALLY did.”. will’s saying he doesn’t care about the expectations others have of them, he doesn’t care that he’s also terrified of the prejudice, of how hostile society is towards gay people, of how he’s feeling towards mike and what that means for both of their lives. because before el, he thought that mike felt the same. that they were on the same page in all of this. s2 mike would surely make you think so. and now he feels like mike has rejected him, but even then he still wants mike to know how much he values him and their relationship. saying that none of that other stuff matters to him if they’re together. because how much he loves mike surpasses all of that. will thought their bond was so special that nothing would change that fact, ever. well, until now.. i reiterate, ow ow ow ow.

so how does this relate to the s4 script? well, the “what are you, like 12-years-old still, dude?” i think is s3 mike rearing his head. throughout s4 mike’s feelings for will have been brought to his attention again. been more pressing, because mike’s starting to realize things about himself, like having issues telling el he loves her, and how much he really misses and loves will since he moved across the country etc. but i still think, i mean we still know, that mike has trouble accepting these feelings. so he doesn’t know how to act around will, and i think he gets impulses like “it’s not my fault you don’t like girls” even now, but maybe he can at least keep those feelings in his head at this point. which is why we get a glimpse of mike’s confusion when a thought like “what are you, like 12-years-old still, dude?” pops up. and that “still” reaaaaaally emphasizes and confirms that this is truly just a call-back to s3, to their fight. this is something mike’s had an issue with before. mike’s internalized homophobia, the devil on his shoulder if you will, is trying to convince him saying “how can will STILL think like that? you know that’s not realistic”. and i think it’s also really telling how will reads this behavior as mike worrying about el, when he’s really not. like william “i hate who i am” byers wouldn’t be able to tell that mike’s in love with him even if mike fucking told him so lmao (i’m laughing through the pain).

we know mike’s actually the one who’s been trying to reach out to will since the end of s3. not will, but mike. he’s trying to go back to behaving like he did pre-s3, which is his unfiltered, usual, protective-over-will-self. he wants to go back to being super close with his best bud and soulmate and future bf will. and he tries, but he doesn't feel like will reciprocates that. mike even acknowledges that in their fight at the roller rink, and later on when they have their heart to heart at home. will could have reached out more. but instead mike feels like will’s been pushing him away, like he’s “losing” him, which will also confirms in the van scene by explaining that he’s tried to “rip off the band-aid so he doesn’t get more hurt”. they are doing it in an incredibly roundabout way, but THEY ARE trying to tell each other that they actually want to be with one another. they don’t want their relationship to be like this. they both want more. and i can’t fucking stop thinking about the theory that mike’s been trying to call will all of the frickity frockity time since he moved away. because we get dustin saying “joyce has this telemarketing job. always on the phone. mike wont stop whining about it”. and we know mike can’t call el because it would put her at risk, that wouldn’t make any sense. so who the fuck is he calling but can’t get through to because the line is busy all of the time because joyce is on the phone constantly but he gets frustrated because he really wants to talk to this person and has trouble writing to them probably because his girlfriend would see the letters too and like it’s complicated and maybe would be seen as romantic and aaaaahhhhhh i don’t know what to do with all of these emotions???? IT HAS TO BE WILL. like there’s literally no other explanation. and it would kinda make a lot of foking sense why mike’s behaving the way he is in s4 because of that, and why a thought like will “being childish” would come up now that they’re finally seeing each other again and spending time together aaaand talking just them over and over and over, with their billion heart to hearts. because now, mike’s more exposed to and forced to face BOTH his romantic feelings towards will AND the destructive feelings holding him back from him. like bruh. i can’t with this. byler is endgame

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wibble-wobbegong · 1 year

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Do you think Mike was already thinking about the optics of liking girls vs liking boys in s1?

I think with him only being able to think of the Snowball as a romantic activity, that being a publicly romantic thing, was showing that Mike was already thinking about who he should be seen with in that light vs not. He was already liking the idea of maybe preventing any gay rumors starting asap.

What are your thoughts?

i think it’s kinda set up so that mike has to start acknowledging what it means to like boys vs what it means to like girls before s1 because will gets directly bullied for it and we see him get indirectly bullied for it. the thing is, i don’t think he saw anything wrong with the idea of being gay before s1. he always admired special qualities in his friends that made them different from other people which is what they got bullied for. all his friends were outcasts for different reasons, so i don’t think he ever really put much thought into what he might be because he didn’t care

the issue started when el came in and everybody was trying to tell him he was supposed to like her. the nuance of sexuality wasn’t really a thing in the 80’s, so in his 12 year old brain he had been assigned the role of ‘straight’ by everyone around him and he really didn’t have any reason not to believe them. he’d never had a friend who was a girl before, how would he know that what he’s feeling for her isn’t romance (even if there’s nothing he can think of that distinctly makes it romantic, it’s just supposed to be like that. at least, that’s what he tells her before they kiss in s1)

i don’t know if it was a matter of who he should or shouldn’t be seen with. he doesn’t seem to understand the problem with being gay except that bullies make fun of you for it, but they also make fun of dustin’s disability which he thinks is kind of like a superpower. i think he wanted to take her to the snowball because that’s something you do with people you like and apparently mike likes el (even if he doesn’t really understand it, everybody is telling him he does and he has no reason to counter it).

if he hadn’t been introduced to the idea that he was supposed to be straight so early on and he didn’t promise himself to el, we may have never ended up with mike trying to fix himself then way he did in s3. i’m always gonna be a firm believer that mike finally realized his feelings for will when they were in that shed, and he doesn’t really hold his feelings back. he openly admits that will is the best part of his life. mike doing that now would have everyone agreeing it’s a romantic statement, because it is. mike spent that whole season not holding back on his feelings for will, and i honestly think that if el hadn’t come back then byler could’ve happened a lot sooner

idk if i’m saying this well but basically, yes i think he was thinking about liking boys vs liking girls but in the sense that he didn’t really care until he was told he was supposed to like el. he’d been assigned the straight boy and was now having to try and differentiate between his platonic feelings for his friends and family and his feelings for el, which we see him unable to do. i don’t think mike would’ve struggled as much if people hadn’t assigned him to being straight and he didn’t feel trapped both in that image of him and his relationship with el, which he felt like her owed her

#sorry for getting to this late i just couldn’t figure how to word a response #but yeah #i think a lot of his stuff is rooted in heteronormativity more than it is homophobia #like you can’t clearly isolate one or the other but his ih is more rooted in heteronormativity #mike wheeler

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hawkinsschoolcounselor · 4 years

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Analysis of El if you'd like.

Always so humble with the requests. Of course I’d like, otherwise I wouldn’t ask. Ask away, people! Oh, and FYI to everyone, when I see a like less than a minute after I post one of these long posts, it makes me wonder if you people are really reading them. Don’t assume you’re going to like them. Read them, and then decide. El can be a touchy subject considering she has such a rabid fan base. She is an extremely complex character, and it is unlikely that the Duffers have a detailed understanding of child psychology. The character therefor likely wasn’t designed with such theories in mind, but in psychology there is decent amount of common sense that writers may have drawn on. In real life, El would be quite the interesting case study. She was born and raised in a controlled lab setting. Everything in her life was strictly controlled until she was 12/13 or so. For another year after that she was still very limited in her freedoms and opportunities as she was hidden away in Hopper’s cabin. For several months after that she was only allowed out to see her friends, but never in a public setting it would seem. All of this has strictly limited her socioemotional growth.

El’s cognitive development seems to be the least impacted, not accounting for physical development which I wouldn’t even attempt to determine. Her cultural knowledge is almost nonexistent when we first meet her, which is to be expected given her upbringing. Nevertheless, she possesses problem solving skills, has shown impressive concentration and information processing speed (staying focused on her tasks and reacting to new stimuli, such as an attack), an ability to form basic arguments (as shown in her fights with various characters), and receptive language skills. She does seem to have deficits in productive language, which is likely a result of her extremely limited social exposure. The traits she is shown to do well with are likely the result of careful conditioning by Dr. Brenner and his colleagues. She was designed as a weapon, and would therefor need to work quickly, efficiently, and decisively based on orders given. She also, somewhat surprisingly given her catchphrase, has shown the ability to lie (when she intentionally led Mike, Dustin, and Lucas on a wild goose chase). This shows her ability to use planning and judgement to decide and execute a course of action (whether that was a good or bad idea is up for debate).

Her emotional and social development are seriously stunted. When we meet El she possesses little affect (the verbal and non-verbal cues that convey feeling when communicating). She speaks in a flat voice, stares blankly, and has limited usage of body language. She does get an edge to her voice when angry, but her speaking volume rarely changes unless in a high-stress situation. This shows a delay in emotional development. Emotional development goes through a series of stages. To some extent, emotions are instinctual and necessary to survival, but the expression of said emotions is usually learned and conditioned. We don’t know much about El’s early childhood, but it is unlikely that emotional expression was encouraged. El does possess basic emotions like happiness, anger, sadness, and fear. Her limited ability to express emotions early in the show is likely a result of Dr. Brenner wanting to limit her emotional responses. He wouldn’t want a weapon that was afraid or remorseful. He did seem to value having a bond with her, as she seemed to desire his approval and called him “Papa.” He is shown treating her very poorly in general, and even worse when she was a disappointment to him. Her lack of affect could also be modeled on him, as he generally speaks very evenly regardless of his mood.

El’s emotional development does gain some traction in seasons 2 and 3 as she is exposed to others. This is a good segue to her social development. Before escaping the lab, she seems to have little to no social experience. She seems to have had some early socialization with Kali at the lab, but she had no memory of this. Her first real social experiences occurred when she met Benny (who treated her kindly) and then Mike, Lucas, and Dustin. This is when she starts to show her trademark character quirk of repeating others. This is also when she starts to really build conversational skills, as before she was mostly expected to take in language rather than express it.

Much of our social learning, especially early on, is a result of observation and imitation. We see something, whether in person or through fictional material, we imitate it, and then we are reinforced, ignored, or punished. From what we can observe from El, after she escapes the lab through to when she moves, her learning came from a combination of the week she spent with the Party (during Season 1), her time hiding with Hopper (end of Season 1 to midway through Season 2), her time with Kali, and then the events of Season 3. Now, we have to keep in mind that all of this learning occurs in the span of about two years. Of that time, over half of it is the result of watching TV and speaking to Hopper. She lacks a lot of the cultural context for a lot of the social and emotional information she takes in.

Her social relationships are difficult to examine, mostly because there is a lot we just don’t get to see. She bonded with Mike very quickly, as he was kind to her and tried to keep her safe from the “bad men.” In reality, he didn’t treat her terribly different from Dr. Brenner in the sense that he was still using her. Mike tried to explain relationships and social norms to her, but, given her lack of preexisting knowledge and his own limited understanding, she didn’t quite get it all. She doesn’t seem to know the difference between familial, platonic, and romantic love. Instead, she sort of imprints on him like a baby animal may to its carer. Dustin and Lucas are less eager to have her around, but they warm up to her when it’s clear that she does genuinely want to help.

Her time away from them, and her apparently great consumption of TV soap operas, has resulted in her sort of trying to live out a fantasy. She becomes obsessed with Mike, watching him and stalking him since she is disallowed from actually leaving the cabin. She becomes extremely possessive (like a soap opera character), developing a dislike of Max simply due to her trying to be Mike’s friend. This is quite unhealthy, and the hostility is again shown when Max attempts to befriend her. It is apparent that her time away resulted in a her creating an “ideal” version of her and Mike based on TV representations of relationships. She still is shown to have missed Dustin and Lucas, but none of the intensity is present in those relationships.

Her relationship with Mike is very superficial. As far as viewers can tell, they spend most of their time making out. El is still shown to have possessive qualities, as it is stated that she and Mike are often at Hopper’s cabin together. We see them bailing early after Dustin comes home from camp, despite them making the trip to the hill to construct Cerebro. El does not seem to appreciate any of Mike’s personal interests or personality traits. In a callback to season 1, where El had no interest as Mike showed off his toys, El tells Mike to stop singing and does not laugh at his attempts at a joke (granted, she was angry with him at the time). The implication is that the realities of her relationship with Mike did not meet her expectations. This is actually a fairly normal part of social development, and it leads her to another stage: exploration.

Up until this point, El had not attempted to explore the possibilities of who she was. She had merely taken on the identities that others had crafted for her, starting with Brenner, then Mike, then Hopper, then Max. Max is the first one to actually encourage her to explore and experiment. What Max doesn’t seem to realize, however, is that El is also now emulating her. She’s making some strides to be her own person, but she’s still heavily influenced by Max, included repeating what Max says. Nevertheless, she is genuinely confused by the entire concept of her liking something for herself, and has no idea even how to determine what she likes. This isn’t surprising, as Hopper is shown being in way over his head, and the Party are simply young teens who don’t know better.

Unfortunately for El, a traumatic loss has set her back by the end of Season 3. She lost her first real father figure, and we see her sort of revert back to dressing as she did before Max’s influence. She also falls back into her infatuation with Mike, despite seeming to have moved on. The confusion on Mike’s face suggests that this is a surprise to him, so there is a lot unknown as to how she arrived back at that decision. It is also unknown why she kept it to herself before she moved. It is plausible to hypothesize that she is going back to her first real secure base. She needs to feel safe and secure after so much traumatic change (losing Hopper, her powers vanishing, and having to move away). She could be clinging to Mike as a way to keep some semblance of control. At the very least, Mike doesn’t seem to reciprocate, which could lead to some problems for her down the road.

In the end, El is a complicated character. Millie Bobby Brown has done a commendable job portraying a traumatized character with a limited understanding of emotion and social norms. It is upsetting to see some fans acting as if her relationship with Mike is healthy for her, at least as it has so far been portrayed. There is some hope for El, developmentally speaking, as Joyce has been shown to be a very loving mother. Time away from Mike could be beneficial, but, as we saw early in Season 2, she reacts very possessively if anyone moves in on her “territory,” for lack of a better word. This relationship indeed seems very limiting for her. With any luck, she will be able to explore the world and herself to a greater extent in Season 4. It is my hope, as someone who works with children, that she is able to learn more about herself as more than just someone else’s friend, daughter, girlfriend, sister, or weapon.

#stranger things #eleven #jane hopper #el

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willelbyers · 6 years

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Just One Of Those Things

Summary: It’s always just been one of those things they don’t talk about.

Pairings: Will/Mike, past Mike/El, background Lucas/Max

Notes: It’s a future-fic, about 2,500 words. The Party basically figures out how to talk about what they already know.

Alternatively: Will and Mike hide and deflect, El doesn’t know how to differentiate herself and Jane, Max doesn’t want to pretend, that’s all Lucas wants to do, and Dustin is convinced he has Not-Superpowers.

This is posted on Ao3 here as well as written out below the cut. Enjoy!

There’s an unspoken rule in the Party, a specific dynamic they never address: we don’t talk about… that.

They don’t talk about the particular closeness between the two of them. They don’t mention how Will strives to live up to whatever expectations he thinks Mike has for him, how Mike does everything from writing more campaigns to reenacting Star Wars for the simple reason of needing to impress him. They don’t talk about how, in the year after the monster, Will always reaches for Mike first and Mike is always there to take his hand.

And even later, after everything, they don’t talk about the way Will has never said anything about or even looked at girls. Or the handful of phone calls to Will’s house Mike has answered or vice-versa. They don’t talk about Mike and El’s amicable (albeit awkward) breakup in tenth grade, or the unsettling three weeks about a month later when Will all but stays holed up in the library with Jennifer Hayes and Christopher Thomas as he flinches away from any of his friends (but especially Mike).

They don’t talk about the way Mike’s gaze lingers on him, always. They don’t talk about the movies the rest of the Party remain uninvited to, their classmates’ parties where the two of them will disappear for an hour or so and reappear later on only to look suspiciously ruffled, the way Mike hates sharing his clothes but Will always has a too-big sweater on anyway. They don’t talk about any of it.

Sometimes, it’s easy to pretend—forget, even—that it doesn’t happen at all.

Max throws a wrench in the plans. The Rule has been in place since, what, sixth grade? Seventh? Probably even earlier. Lucas can’t remember. But he knows that it was before she had gotten there. It’s not really her fault she doesn’t know.

Then again, it really should be obvious enough at this point—it’s been four years.

The only reason Lucas is thinking this, anyway, is because he’s stopped dead in the middle of the street, frozen, staring at his girlfriend.

“Well?” she prompts, and Lucas has to close his eyes for a moment to think about what has lead up to this moment.

They—the Party—had all gone to Jared Thompson’s house for some big Senior year blowout. Dustin, Max, and El had all staunchly voted yes to going. Lucas and Will said no, and then the eyes had turned to Mike. He had sighed, obviously thinking hard, before giving Will (specifically) a meaningful glance and muttering, “Fine.”

The three had cheered as Lucas complained and Will rolled his eyes, letting Mike sling an arm over his shoulders. No one noticed.

Then the party happened, and Max—avoiding alcohol like the plague even as Lucas stole Dustin’s drink and took a few sips (he wasn’t there by choice, he was going to enjoy himself, dammit!)—had eventually gotten tired, asking Lucas to walk her home. Seeing an out, he had agreed.

And then she’d asked: “So, what do you think the deal is between Mike and Will?”

And he had stopped, and now he’s here.

“What?” he manages to choke out.

Max rolls her eyes. “Lucas, come on. Seriously, is this some sort of weird game we all play? Michael and William. Wheeler and Byers. Paladin and Cleric. Nerd and nerd. Are we just going to pretend that we don’t see it happening in front of our eyes?”

He shakes his head, suddenly feeling dizzy. He’s never talked about it before, to anyone. He’d almost forgotten—but he remembers now, and it’s a little… much. “Max, this isn’t…”

She picks up the sentence where he’s trailed off. “What I think it is?” she asks. “Because I’m pretty sure it is. I didn’t see them for the last twenty minutes we were there, and apparently Jared’s back door was open. Three guesses as to who left, probably to go make out?”

“No,” he replies quickly, voice not cooperating. He coughs. “Also, gross. But… but, no, I. I was going to say that this isn’t California. It’s… it’s just… Hawkins.” The unspoken people won’t like it here doesn’t remain unheard.

She shoves her hands into her pockets. “Yeah. I know.” She swallows, hard, and Lucas can see the movement of her shoulders as they tense. Like there’s something else she wants to say. Instead of saying it, she shakes her head. “Lucas, I’ve been playing along with this whole thing since eighth grade. And, you know, that first real party we ever went to? Darby Templeton’s, in eleventh grade, last year? Like, a year after Mike and El broke up.”

“Yeah.”

“I played along then, too,” she admits. “I saw them, just for a second, sneaking off. Like always, now. But Will kissed Mike then, and just like I’m sure it had happened before, I’m sure that it’s still happening now.” She shakes her head. “I can’t just pretend it isn’t happening anymore. Because it is, and I…” She takes a breath, wind whipping her hair into her face. “Did you know?”

“I don’t know. Maybe. I think so?” He sighs, offering a hand for her to take. She does, and they begin to walk, taking slow steps down the street. “I guess… we just never talked about it. We just… never did. And they’ve always been close.” He hesitates. “I think I knew. But I convinced myself I didn’t.”

“Why?”

“I don’t know,” Lucas realized helplessly. “It’s just… one of those things, I think.” He glances at her, guilty eyes darting away quickly. “Is that bad?”

She offers a small, sad smile. “I don’t think so, no.”

El earns her reputation—or, rather, Jane Hopper does. Wearing the mask that is Jane, El becomes an enigma at Hawkins High—quiet to the point she’s nearly silent, a math whiz, intense stare, curly hair sheared short with an odd array of clothes. It helps that she’s the daughter of the hot-tempered Chief of Police and the foster sister of The Boy Who Came Back To Life. She’s mysterious, and apparently boys “dig that” while girls “want to be that” (says Dustin, anyway). She couldn’t care less about boys, and she doesn’t think a girl could become any more beautiful by mimicking her, but she’s read enough books to know that yes, people do like mysteries.

Not to mention, karma really does seem to kick back around her. At least, that’s what the student body believes. For instance, on her first day of school, Troy had flicked a slur-filled note at the back of Will Byers’ head. Seconds after it had been unfolded, read, and crumpled again, the boy pulling in on himself, Troy had tripped over nothing. He lost three teeth; Dustin had fired a small comment, looking vindicated; Jane had appeared very pleased.

In all honesty: Jane was pleased—still is, three years later. Scarily so; enough that her vision turns a satisfying red for just a moment. El feels a little remorseful, using her powers to hurt some kid, but then she remembers everything Troy has done and her resolve is set. She might not like the things she does as Jane a lot of the time, but she finds nothing wrong about this.

The other thing she is known for is for, well, knowing. People are always open books to her, with the exception of a few.

“Don’t even think about stealing that,” Jane says softly to the kid she spies hovering around Mr. B’s room. He whips around, eyes wide, and sprints away from the expensive-looking, half-repaired watch on the teacher’s desk.

“Sorry, Jane,” he mutters in return before he’s gone, and Jane just nods and smiles tightly, dark eyes following him. Jane files the interaction in her memory, but she already has his face and name blocked out—she can claim deniability if necessary.

She relaxes her stance as soon as he’s gone, El taking over from Jane, shouldering her bag and making her way down the hall. She’s searching for Will, so they can go home together—though her dad and Joyce aren’t “dating”, they live in the same house, so Will and Jonathan are basically her brothers now. It makes it hard, hearing all of Jonathan’s thoughts when he comes back from college, hearing Joyce’s and Dad’s all the time, and then only getting painful feedback from Will.

If only Will’s mind was like that boy’s, she thinks idly. Pliant, but not weak. Though not foolish like him. Because there are things she doesn’t understand about Will, about Mike, about society, about the world. Things she might be able to decode if only she could see him like she sees everyone else. Questions she could have answered.

Question one would probably be: Why are you still sad? Because Will is still so oppressively miserable that it follows him like a storm cloud, so prominent she couldn’t miss it if she tried. But things are better now, so why?

Question two would certainly be: It’s not your fault. You know that, right? And she would ask because Will tries to carry the weight of the world on his small shoulders, because Will blames himself for everything bad that has ever happened to him or someone he cares about. She doesn’t need powers to see that. Will just thinks that bad things happen to him for a reason, that he has brought these evils upon himself, and El wants to make him see that it just doesn’t work like that.

Question three would simply be: You love him, so why do you hide? It had hurt for a while when Mike had, what’s the term… “broken up” with her. Will helped her understand that all Mike meant was that they weren’t right for each other “romantically” (which is apparently different from “platonically”, which is apparently the one El herself likes). And El can’t read Will but she can read Mike as well as anyone else—perhaps better—and she knows everything: she knows that Mike loves Nancy though he says he doesn’t, he admires Steve though he says he doesn’t, he thinks Jonathan is a little too “cloud-in-front-of-the-sun-on-a-previously-nice-day”, whatever that means, though he says he doesn’t. She knows that even though she is Mike’s favorite person, Will is Mike’s Favorite Person, though Mike says he doesn’t have favorites. Basically, Mike says a lot of things that aren’t true. But El now knows the difference between lies, white lies, and not knowing the truth, so she’ll let it slide.

And she will never know the way she knows about other people, but Will’s heart is worn on his arm—no, sleeve, that’s right. His emotions are clear. El knows what it means, when Will’s face lights up as Mike wraps him into a hug.

And, moreover, the brightest, loudest thought from Mike is a mixture of love and fear. It’s something El has always known about but hadn’t been able to interpret when she first saw it. But she gets it now: Mike loves Will, in a way that’s romantic and not solely platonic like it is with the rest of the Party, and it scares him.

She doesn’t know why.

The problem is that no one addresses this, no one seems to relate to her thoughts, so she is left to wonder if this is just another one of those countless things she’ll never understand.

Dustin likes to think that he has a special sort of intuition—not a power, like El has and whatever Will has developed, but a… skill. The kind that has gotten him in trouble before, sure, but is a big achievement nonetheless. For instance: Dart. Yeah, Dart had turned out to be a dangerous inter-dimensional baby Demogorgon, but befriending it had helped the Party escape the tunnels when El closed the gate.

So. Intuition not terrible.

But his intuition screams DANGER DANGER DANGER around El, around Will. He doesn’t think they’ll hurt him, any of them—because of course they wouldn’t—but he swears he can feel an undercurrent of energy when they step into a room. It’s in the way things shake but don’t fall when El is angry, the way shadows seem to bend to Will when he’s afraid.

And he gets something from Mike, too. Less in a physical sense—there are no tremors, no flashes of light or darkness or color when something goes wrong. But there’s something in Mike’s gaze that warns people to not get too close. If Dustin’s not-superpower is his intuition, Mike’s is his disconcerting glares.

Dustin notices it a lot at school, when bullies—fewer than there had been in the past, fortunately—whisper behind Will’s back. Or when people snicker when he stutters through answering a question on a bad day. Even at home, when the rest of the Party send questioning looks at them when Will falls asleep on Mike’s shoulder during a movie night and all Mike does is run a hand through his hair.

The look tells them, no. Forceful enough that people just tend to look away before his glare intensifies. And Dustin wonders what it is about Will that has Mike doing that. What it is that could make Mike do anything for him. Wonders how long they’ve loved each other.

But Mike says no, and it becomes one of those things Dustin tries not to think about.

It’s one of those things Will talks about a lot. In whispers, usually, sometimes over a radio he has control over or muttered into the ceiling as they sprawl out in his bedroom or sometimes even spoken about between kisses. And Mike listens to him, replies to him, understands.

It’s why Will loves him.

They don’t talk about the others. It seems too wrong. But they talk about everything else—their feelings, their future (singular), their fears. How much they love each other.

They don’t talk about the fact that they haven’t let a single person know about them yet, despite the fact that it’s been two years. The fact that their friends might whisper things but never say anything substantial out loud. They don’t talk about the fact that Mike sometimes thinks about how he really did have feelings for El, even though it’s long gone. They don’t talk about the three weeks Will had spent hiding away with Jen and Christopher after he confessed, terrified and confused; the three weeks that they had spent apart before they snapped back together like a rubber band. Those are just… some of those things they don’t talk about.

“I love you,” Mike mutters sleepily as he clambers into the bed beside Will. It’s the same bed he’s had since he was a kid and it’s much too small for two people, but they make it work. It’s Saturday night and the door is locked, El is at the arcade with Max and Lucas, Dustin is away, Jonathan is at college, his mom and Hopper are sleeping, and Mike will make his escape in the morning through the window.

Will wraps his arms around Mike’s torso and pulls him closer, away from the edge. He presses a kiss to his mouth. “Mm. Love you, too.”

And it’s one of those things they can talk about.

I hope you enjoyed, everyone! Reviews are, as always, appreciated. Find me on Ao3 here.

#stranger things #stranger things season 2 #byeler #byler #lumax #will byers #mike wheeler #lucas sinclair #max mayfield #dustin henderson #el hopper #jane hopper #jane ives #fanfic #fanfiction #logan writes stranger things stuff

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kaypeace21 · 4 years

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El is NOT ‘in love’ with Mike

Mileven-shippers be bugging - apparently I’m ‘misogynisitc’ to think Mike Wheeler is gay, cause I’m not taking into consideration how ‘in love’ El is and am therefore enjoying her suffering (despite the fact I’ve said multiple times I don’t think El is in love with him either). So I’m just doing a rebuttal. Not going to even mention the milevens who lap-up the ‘Will is gay and pinning over straight-Mike for the rest of his life’-narrative. But,besides all the s4 movies having the long distance couple break up and admit in at least 4-6 movies that they both knew all along “it would never work out” and that they never loved each other. And El’s character even being happy for byler .The show hints at the fact (pretty heavily) El isn’t ‘in love’ with Mike. But is simply confused (given her lack of proper socialization). I’ve mentioned it before but just some obvious points people like to ignore...

For some inexplicable reason...We’re supposed to believe in s1 a traumatized girl (with no proper socialization with adults or peers) who doesn’t even know what a friend is - is supposed to know the nuances of romantic, platonic, and familial love (or just the distinctions between physical attraction, crushes ,or romantic love)? Really?!

- in s1 El knew Mike for 4 days, but we’re supposed to believe they ‘fell in love at first sight’? Even when the official ST-twitter ‘st writers’ said they don’t believe in ‘love at first sight’.

- El is mixing up familial love with romantic love. Before he asks her out , El asks in regards to the status of their relationship “will you be like my brother?” And she is confused and upset when Mike says “no”- and proceeds to ask , “Why?” their relationship would be different than siblings. And Mike says “I don’t know, I guess it’s not.”

Then Mike accidentally implies the only difference between friends/siblings/ gfs is that you kiss them. Mike pretty much says it’s different simply for the fact that it would be weird to go to a dance with someone who is like a sister - then kisses her.

And then In s2, Mike tries to emulate his ‘non jealous’ friend, Dustin, who is happy for lumax (despite his own romantic feelings). So Mike tries to act like Dustin, and forces Will to dance with a girl (who’s wearing a rainbow hair clip). And right after this we see Dustin look sad about Max/Lucas dancing and Mike (next to Dustin) look sadly at Will/girl dancing in the same exact frame as Max/Lucas. As they switch between these 2 shots to emphasize their sadness/jealousy.

Then they both sit down (mirroring each other) on the verge of tears before Nancy and El show up to comfort them and distract them. As El once again (presumably) wears Nancy dress.

The parallels continue as Nancy (who has no romantic feelings for Dustin but more of a sibling-esque bond) teaches him how to dance, similar to how Mike teaches El to do the same. Indicating it’s not romantic for either pairings (despite the kiss). Mike :” you don’t go to dances with your sister?/ no?/ i mean you can but it’d be really weird.”

*In s2 they even make a direct parallel to Luke &Leia (who were siblings who had a weird romantic relationship/kiss before realizing they were related). Mike (as Leia) saying “it’s a trap” to El (Luke).

And Leia (Mike) eventually gets with Han (Will) the one she had the real romantic tension with all along, and who she tried to make jealous by using Luke (El). Specifically, by kissing Luke (El) in front of Han (Will). Doing this by kissing El at the dance where Will could see.

They’re also compared to cousins.

And most damming is how Mike/El is compared to mileven. Cause El is confusing familial love for Mike with romantic.

* In s1 Lucas even compares El to Mike’s sister Holly, while the decoration of a heart being propelled by a rainbow hangs above him. Which echos what happened in s2 as well.In s2 , Erica forces He-man and barbie to make out. And Lucas angrily separates the two. And then this discussion happens.

Erica: “Hey , They’re in love!”Lucas (livid- and standing right next to a rainbow): “No, actually, they’re not. They don’t even exist on the same planet.”

Cue El and mike being compared to ET and Eliot (by the Duffers in multiple interviews and in the pilot script, shown above ) . And El watching he-man in s1- while Dustin in s2 has he-man and et next to eachother to show they were in fact Lucas was talking about mileven. Mike even calls El “yoda” in s1. We also see El compared to ET on multiple occasions in s1 (the bike scene, reese’s pieces vs eggos, et/el both having a the barbie like makeover and dressing as a ghost etc). And then there’s the old euphemism of “girls come from Venus, and boys come from Mars”. So El telling mike he should ‘stick with his own species’ (aka boys). And the Duffers saying mileven isn’t in love cause they’re not from the same planet -is just them telling us , Mike is gay and El doesn’t love him either. Will even says to Mike “welcome to my world”. In s3 we see Mike’s gotten rid of the sign that has a heart being propelled by a rainbow (symbolizing how he’s trying to hide/get rid of his feelings for Will) . But in El’s room while mileven makes-out we see a drawing of a heart being propelled by a rainbow (similar to the sign in s1 )- emphasizing the fact that no matter how much he makes out with El, and tries to hide the truth... he’s still gay. Like Max said in her rebuttal to El’s comment of “friends don’t lie”. “Yeah, but boyfriends lie ALL THE TIME”. Cause the relationship on Mike’s end was always a farce.

- And before their first kiss , after asking if she’d be like his sis, she asks if he’s asking her to the snow ball as “a friend?” And he says “it’s different”. But El again asks “how?”. And Mike (similar to El’s sibling question) once again can’t explain the difference of how friends and romantic partners are different to her, before they kiss. And just a few days earlier she asked the gang “what is friend?”. Yet we’re supposed to believe she knows she has a crush on Mike?

El constantly says in reference to Mike “friends don’t lie” (even in s3). Her instincts are telling her she doesn’t have romantic feelings for him ... which is why in a span of 3 minutes she says she thinks of him as both a “brother” and a “friend” when he tries to make it romantic in s1.

This whole ‘romantic confession’ of Mike’s in s1, echos his ‘love confession’ in s3. With Mike making it romantic and El once again not understanding his words or reciprocating her understanding of ‘feeling like she’s in love with him’.

Mike, before his love confession, apologizes for everything BUT LYING (the thing that broke them up in the first place). Aka because the love confession itself, was yet another lie Mike was telling. Which is why he never says “I love you” (to her face) but instead says *blank/it* instead of “love” .Saying “It makes you crazy…blank makes you crazy.

In s1 Flo says “ only love makes you crazy and that damn stupid”. Re-contextualizing the “crazy together” scene between Mike and Will as romantic (since Mike & Flo both equate love to making you ‘crazy’ ) .

When Mike tries to confess his “love” to El , he says “Well , they do say it makes you crazy”… much to El’s confusion as she says “what makes you crazy”? But when Mike asks Will, “We’ll go crazy together, right? Will immediately responds back “yeah, crazy together.”As they smile at each other.

Then there’s the fact that in s2 El’s new catchphrase was “not stupid”.She even says this line right before going to visit Mike. Right before Mike says he loves El, Nancy even comments that “El’s not stupid”. And in s3 El says “there’s more to life than STUPID boys.”And in s3 during the byler fight, Mike says “El’s not stupid.” As opposed to Will who right after this, runs to castle byers, looks at the Halloween pic where they both said they’d go ‘crazy together’, and cries and calls himself “stupid” (4x).

(x)(x)

The show says El is neither stupid nor crazy for Mike, meaning she DOES NOT (romantically) LOVE MIKE! The only one who is “crazy” and “stupid” for Mike is Will. Therefore, Will is the only one in love with Mike! . She even ignored his confession for 3 months and lied about hearing it- that doesn’t scream ‘in love’ .

- El mimicks Erica Kane and pretends to be with a fictional Mike Roy, while watching ‘all my children’ (Mike and Erica aren’t endgame btw) . Which parallels mileven to Karen/ Billy. Before she meets him she’s reading a romance book that has a guy that resembles Billy on the cover. The Duffers even mentioned they changed the cover to show the resemblance between Billy and the fictional book character. And we see Karen reading the sequel in s3 before Billy appears. Both El and Karen don’t/didn’t love Mike or Billy- they just projected onto them fictional characters they were infatuated with. She knew Mike for 4 days- saw a rushed romance on tv with a character named Mike- and simply wanted to emulate it with the only Mike she knew.

-She latched on to Mike more than the others since he was the first boy her age who took care of her. If Dustin did everything Mike did, she would of assumed she was in love with him too! El through her limited knowledge (given to her by Mike) essentially assumes boyfriends (who you are in love with) are boys who you think of as “friends, cousins, or brothers” who you kiss. Since Mike accidentally implied that feelings for brothers/ friends are the same as romantic crushes (in s1 saying about the difference “I don’t know I guess there isn’t”, and she is later taught while in isolation that kissing=romantic love (by soap operas). And then projects Mike roy (who she’s actually crushing on) onto our Mike wheeler. And then she proceeds to mimic what she sees on screen. Similar to how she copies Max’s words in s3. El says “I love you too”, cause (similar to mimicking Max and soap operas) she assumes mimicking him is what she’s supposed to do! Not cause she's actually in love with him!

(X)

Not to mention the episode of the soap opera episode she’s mimicking is about a women and a man (named Michael) who rush into a relationship despite barely knowing each other, because of traumatic circumstances . And who are not endgame! She’s mimicking the female character who (has romantic feelings for a guy named Mike). Just like Mike projects Will on to El. El does the same projecting qualities of soap-opera Mike Roy onto our Mike Wheeler.

- For El’s entire life she has known only 4 boys and 1 girl her age (her dating options are pathetically puny). She knew 4 boys for less then then a week, then immediately jumped into dating the first one who kissed her (and the only one who visited her for her 6 months in isolation at the cabin...interacting with her only romantic option, Mike).She’s never had a normal social-life like most kids who interact with a large number of boys and girls. So she could never see if what she had for Mike was romantic (or more than a simple crush) cause she has nothing to compare it to.

In s3

- Dustin compares stancy to Mileven stating it’s “bullshit”. And in s1 mileven is compared to Karen/Ted, as El sits and enjoys Ted’s laz-eboy chair. Similar to how Steve and Ted both eat chicken as their female partners storm away upset, and both men do nothing to help. Nancy states the only reason Karen and Ted got married was because they were young and that getting together was the more ‘socially acceptable/logical choice’ and saying “I don’t think my parents ever loved each other.” John says Nancy was repeating her mom’s mistakes by getting with the jock (Steve) , similar to how her mom got with a wealthy man (Ted). And now Mike is repeating Nancy and Karen’s mistakes getting with a girl cause it’s the logical choice (instead of being with the boy he loves).It’s mutual though (just like the Wheeler parents, mileven never loved each other).

- In s3 El even says “How do I know what I like?” In reference to clothes and Max says she has to figure that out on her own without letting Mike or Hopper influence her. Associating mileven with El’s lack of understanding of knowing what she likes. This poor girl doesn’t even know how to interpret what objects she likes but we’re supposed to believe , before this she knew with certainty she liked Mike romantically?!

Later Max even asks her “Is Mike a good kisser?” And she similarly answers “I don’t know, he’s my first boyfriend”. While staring at a pic of the karate-kid ( right after she dumped Mike). Implying subconsciously she’s thinking of other boys , who are not Mike in the future. Which is actually very similar to the soap opera character who went on to have many marriages after being “in love with” Michael. Plus, despite making out with him everyday for 6 months straight- she doesn’t feel strongly , and is neutral/confused about how kissing him makes her feel (similar to clothes).

This is also in direct opposition to Will, who said he expected him and Mike to never get girlfriends and spend the rest of their lives together, and who later cries while looking at a picture of Mike. Unlike El who is happy and swooning over a pic of a random male celeb. They even have El (after breaking up with Mike) happily read comics books with Max, while Will (right before his breaks down) throws his comic on the floor, frustrated he can’t get his mind off of his fight with Mike.

- Also if she’s ‘so in love with him’ as people claim, her laughing right after breaking up with him and having a party with Max makes little to no sense. And if you say she simply ‘doesn’t understand how breakups work’... you’re just proving my point that she’s too naive and not emotionally-mature enough to be in a romantic-relationship in the first place. The breakup between Mileven was comedic, while Byler’s fight was serious, cause byler’s fight is more important to the writers .Mike’s drastically different expressions after the fight. The dramatic framing in the rain vs the casual comedic after-math at the mall. One fight being in front of a crowd, while byler’s fight was something private and just between them. El smiling vs Will’s heartbreak. It just highlights once again Will loves Mike, and El doesn’t!

- After Mike says to El (in the pool shed) she’s “the most important thing in the world “, to him. She ignores his proclamation, and agrees with Hopper that they’re spending too much time together, and tells him they both need to spend time with their own species. Which is contrasted with Mike’s confession in the Byers-shed (in s2) where Mike says, asking Will to be his friend was the ‘best thing he’s ever done’ . And those words were what helped break Will from his possession.

The framing of this mileven scene was not cinematic or heartfelt, and neither was the delivery from Mike.We as the audience are supposed to take his words as seriously as El- aka , not at all. Because the scene and his words were meant to feel empty. He’s not crying, trying to reach her with proclamations of his genuine feelings. There’s no narrative importance to this scene (unlike byler’s). And there’s no dramatic music, framing, lighting or shot composition (and the pool-scene was also incredibly short).

Then, juxtapose this to the MUCH longer byler scene. A literal single tear falls down Mike’s cheek, as he recounts the first day they met. This whole monologue is only of tight shots of just their faces (their bodies aren’t shown like in the pool shed scene). This is a personal moment between them and them alone- and the fact we zoom in on their faces (expresses this to be important emotionally) . And when we see Will’s reaction to Mike saying “it was the best thing I’ve ever done”. We just see Will’s face only- no music is playing and all we hear is Will’s whimpers and Mike crying in the background. They even have an added layer to this because earlier in the season Will assumes John only hangs out with him because he has no friends. But then Mike (despite all the hardships with the demogorgan and Mindflayer) still tells Will that asking him to be his friend was still the best thing he’s ever done. And those words are what helps Will begin to break from his possession .

-When Max makes fun of how Mike talks to much, El agrees and laughs. And similarly when Max says Mike is wrong and it isn’t just “a break” El once again chuckles. This is not the behavior of someone who’s deeply in love with a person.

Canonically El isn’t even into Mike’s real personality traits or his interests. Not only making fun of how he talks too much, but walking away and ignoring him when he excitedly talked about dinosaurs or makes jokes with the cpr dummy. She’s not into ‘nerds’. She only swooned for him in s3 when he was acting like a ‘bad-boy’ who was disrespectful to Hopper and his friends. Probably, because that’s what the tv has conditioned her to like.

-Robin who had feelings for a girl also points out that Steve “didn’t even like her” despite all the attention Tammy gave him (similar to Mike with El). Tammy is a someone who sucks at singing but does it all the time (COUGH insert mike’s singing in s3 as El cuts him off as a parallel XD) . And Robin annoyed also call’s Steve’s hair “stupid” like how Will called El “stupid”. Implying similar to Steve who didn’t like Tammy (who his gay friend was crushing on) ... EL doesn’t like Mike (Who Will is in love with).

- She also never apologizes for spying on Mike-despite it clearly upsetting him. But to be fair Mike NEVER apologized for lying either (the cause of their breakup). It’s just so obvious they’re not compatible on any level. They can’t even agree to respect each others’ core principles; C’mon guys!

-Her whole arc in s2 was about leaving the cabin and learning more about herself and gaining independence from men controlling her autonomy (aka hopper and brenner). She went from wanting to see her friends and leave the cabin that she was forced to remain in because of Hopper. To in s3 , ignoring her friends and choosing to seclude herself in the cabin even when (unlike s2 ) she was allowed out of the house! All because she was dating mike.She directly went against her own mantra of “friends don’t lie” from s2 , lying to her friends to return to the cabin and kiss mike- limiting her much needed social interaction which she obtained by escaping the cabin in s2. Dating Mike caused her character to regress as a character NOT PROGRESS.

But also... El had no issues lying to her friends to ditch them and kiss mike (compromising her mantra of “friends don’t lie”. Just like Mike who lied to El despite him teaching her the saying in the first place- and how when together he stops being the group leader. They literally bring out the worst in each other! Lucas even says “ they’re lying”. Before Dustin says their relationship is “bullshit”. But then when Mike lied to her, that’s when she dumps him? And of course El pretends she didn’t hear the “I love her” (a form of lying). This is a stereotypical-childish-middle school-romance that falls apart easily based on petty reasons, cause it lacks a strong foundation. XD

-Then we’re supposed to believe she loves Mike-despite ignoring his love confession for 3 months?! Only saying she “loves” him (and‘making-up’ with him) right before she is about to move, and despite knowing about it for so long? To be fair she had other things to deal with (moving in with the Byers and losing Hopper). But it’s also suspicious it happens right after Mike helps her grab the teddy bear she can’t reach. This is because she used 2 different stuffed bears (Hopper and Terry’s in s2) as a comfort objects (and in s3 Will’s). In s2, she’d snuggle with them when she felt abandoned or at her lowest emotionally. And even the (romantic) ‘golden-teddy bear gift’ Mike was going to give her , was an empty gesture- that would of meant less than simply apologizing. She even wears Hopper’s shirt at the end of s3 which in s2 she snuggled with when homesick. Her using teddy bears like s2, wearing Hopper’s shirt from s2 (and undoing the s3 makeover where Max said to dress what felt like her and NOT Mike & Hopper), and kissing Mike again, symbolizes all her character development was undone from s3- it’s symbolic of her CHARACTER REGRESSION. Just like how in s3 she stayed in the cabin and lied to her friends (when she started to date Mike)- undoing her character arc from s2 which was in direct opposition to her s2 character arc. Mileven’s kissing at the end of s3 shows it’s a bad for El’s growth and inhibits it- that’s what season 3 was saying!

El feels vulnerable because she’s moving away and still hasn’t gotten her powers back. But then Mike comes in and gives her, her comfort object (which she couldn’t retrieve by herself, when she tried to use her telekenesis. That’s when El (conveniently) decides to proclaim she’s in love with him too. While in Will’s room, holding Will’s old teddy bear, as the teddybear comes between Mike and El (as they kiss). It’s obvious (unlike Will) she doesn’t love him , but has just formed a co-dependency to him- and is looking for stability given all the new changes in her life. Like Hopper’s letter said “I don’t want things to change.” She preferred life when Hopper was still around and she had this fake fantasy that Mike was a good boyfriend- before s3.

-And again the very last shot we see of El and Will shows once again El doesn’t love Mike, the way Will does. (Image by @tsugarubecker)

She’s not as distraught or crying like Will is. She’s smiling with light over 1/2 her face because even if El struggles in a new environment she’ll be fine without her friends/Mike who she knew for 9 months. Honestly, other than Mike, she only knew the others for 3 months (since El never went out and only hung out with Mike). She’s hopeful . Will won’t be - because he actually loves Mike and won’t be able to have a new party , and will be a mess without his support system of friends, that he’s had for years! (Why jonathan looks at him concerned- when he’s just crying. With absolutely no hope in his face- covered in shadow , the opposite of El).

So again I say- EL IS NOT IN LOVE WITH MIKE! And, she will not be ‘heartbroken’ or devastated when they breakup. Frankly, her being away from Mike and gaining independence from Hawkins, and meeting new people is the best thing the writers could do for her character growth.

#byler #byeler #anti mileven #anti-mileven

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kaypeace21 · 5 years

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What’s ur theories or what you want to see throughout season 3 for stranger things and what can you see for will for his arc

I literally would not be able to discuss every s3 theory I have in one post XD. But I can specify what theories/hopes I have for Will’s story arc in s3.

1) I want Will’s (not supernatural) PTSD to be addressed, as well as he deep-seeded abandoment issues(caused by Lonnie), and low self-esteem to be addressed. He probably blames himself for Lonnie leaving, and causing his family’s financial issues (which will only worsen because of the new mall). Not to mention Will probably blames himself for Bob’s death- the only cannon romantic love interest in Joyce’s life, since Lonnie. Will clearly has a low self esteem and when people ‘leave him’ he blames himself entirely. A good indicator of this, was when Jonathan says he has friends. And Will is confused and says …

This in itself is extremely telling of how Will views himself. After s1 despite all the kids, teens, and adults doing everything they could to save him (risking their lives to do so) he still doesn’t understand why any of them actual would want to hang around him- he doesn’t see ‘his appeal- his worth’. He doesn’t like himself . He sees himself as a burden, just like his dad perceived him. And because of his abandonment issues, and somewhat iffy social skills, he probably assumes in both s1-2 they saved him out of obligation. And because of his abandonment issues, he’s constantly feeling like a burden and always over-apologizing. And since Will already feels like a burden, because of his dad, his PTSD, and the upside-down incident he’s constantly apologizing .There was a reason Will didn’t tell Joyce what he saw in s1! He yells “I’m sorry “ and snuggles into his mom when he’s trying to explain the mindflayer to Hopper and Joyce. And Joyce says something indicative to his character (before anything supernatural occurs).

Joyce: “You feeling any better? Will?”

Will: “Huh? Yeah… Sorry.”

Joyce: “Hey… what’d we talk about, huh? You gotta stop it with the sorry’s.”

Will : “Yeah, sorry. I mean… yeah, I know.”

This illustrates that Joyce has already discussed the fact that Will over-apologizes . But Will still does it very often, even after these 2 separate discussions.

I think in s3 we’ll see a cumulative reaction to how Will’s experiences have shaped him in a very sad and problematic way. Dustin starts hanging out with Steve, Lucas has a girlfriend, Jonathan will probably be too busy trying to financially support the family/dating Nancy, and to top it all off he then has a fight with Mike about not being “ kids anymore”. I think Mike will lash out, but Will will take the argument much harsher than he usually would (because all of his insecurities are piling up one after the other).So through Will’s perception, he just feels alone and like he’s being abandoned all over again, by the people who he thought would never do this to him.

2) Will’s destroys Castle Byers (Theory). I actually predicted here, that Will would destroy Castle Byers(right after his fight with Mike)- before the track list even came out. I thought this would be the case, because of Castle Byers symbolic importance. Which is why hopefully it’s Will, not some other force that destroys it.

Will uses castle Byers as the one place he feels safe while in the upside down, or just on a daily basis. But it’s still a reminder of his deep-seeded abandonment issues. The day Will’s dad left , Jonathan and Will built Castle Byers all night in the pouring rain. Jonathan saying “we just had to finish it no matter what”. Will was the one who made-up Castle Byers in his imagination, and drew it, before Lonnie even left. He drew the sign “all friends welcome”, because with Lonnie around he never felt ‘welcome’ in his own home. So then when Will goes to Castle Byers in s3 at night in the pouring rain … he’s probably thinking that Mike (and his friends) are going to abandon him just like his dad did!

Will wants time to stop, to regain the childhood he lost, but he can’t cry about it now -since he’s officially a teenager . And everyone else is moving on. He feels like he’s being abandoned in a “ teenage wasteland”

So I think Will may in a fit of rage destroy Castle Byers (probably using his fire powers). Similar to how El had a psychic fit and accidentally destroyed all the windows in the cabin.

However unlike the El scene, it quickly turns into something empowering.We’d be sad. But this in itself would be Will at least trying to symbolically move on from his father’s influence, and trying to overcome his abandonment issues. Plus s3 is all about growing up- and if Will destroys the symbol of his childhood-abandonment-issues it would symbolically indicate his change in character as he accepts that he’s now a teenager . As well as how he’ll refuse to be a victim ever again (from his dad, the mindflayer, the bullies, etc)!

Rain in itself can signify “purification of the soul”. I don’t think all of his issues will magically go away- but it’ll be the start of his journey of acceptance & self-love.

3) I want: El to find Will in the woods right after he destroys Castle Byers.

I’ve described in a previous post that based on the symbolism and iconography of the show why Will & El represent Yin and Yang , read more here. One of the many symbols of Yin and Yang is - Yin being representative of feminity/water & Yang being representative of masculinity/fire.

Will is always referenced with fire in both the comic and show . He drew his wizard character shooting fireballs in s1 and in the first ep he rolled the dice and yelled “fireball”, he had the ‘shadow monster ‘ exorcised out of him with fire, and in the comic he shoots a demogorgan and yells “fireball”. El’s element or ‘substance would be the opposite of fire, “water” - the sensory deprivation tanks are filled with water, the void floor is covered in water, she escaped the lab through a drainage pipe, looked at a reflection of herself in a puddle and cased ripples in it using her powers, in s3 is shown sinking in water and falling out of a vanishing tub, etc.

Yin (water) and Yang (fire) have to be “in perfect balance” (if one’s presence is stronger than the other) “catastrophes will occur” and there will be an “imbalance between the cosmic and human realms”. And throughout the 1st two seasons that’s exactly what happened! If El was shown prominantely then Will was gone or unconscious (or vice versa). There is a symbolic tear between the real world and upside down (because of this imbalance). And having them both be there - as a lit fire of castle byers burn, and rain pours would indicate -that their both starting to find balance. And that they’ll finally team up because of the supernatural threat.

Not to mention the last time Will was at his lowest and went to Castle Byers who found him and even read aloud his mantra/ sign of “all friends welcome”? Right, El!

Not to mention in the very 1st episode, the boys went out in the rain to find Will, but found El instead (when she was also at her most scared and isolated).

So it would be ! PURE POETIC CINEMA! DAMIT! They should do it! (El’s house is even in the woods, it all makes sense)! XD

4. I want : El lying for Will

Millie said about s3, that the biggest lie was that “friends don’t lie” ... “everybody lies”. El is still learning what it’s like to ‘be a person in the real world’ and understanding the complexity of familial, romantic, and platonic relationships. And although it’s admirable to never want to lie- it’s much more complicated in the real world. Will (who has very little control of his powers) will probably want to keep it a secret- afraid of how his friends perception of him will change if they knew. So El obliges and keeps Will’s secret- her first lie.

5) I want: Will’s family dynamics evolving

I want to see the love Will has for his mother and brother (and vice versa). But I also want to see the growing pains involved with Will becoming a teenager, striving for independence, and dealing with the supernatural threat and his clear mental health issues. I want to see Joyce, Jonathan, and Will all grow as people- together. -Also Hopper & Will scenes

6) I want: Will to lash out and get angry

Will constantly fears abandonment and because of this he almost never lashes out- he mostly keeps everything bottled up inside. And regardless of whether it’s justified or not- he deserves to have an emotional outburst- where he SCREAMS about all of his frustrations.

7) I want El and Will talking about /experiencing their shared trauma & how they feel about El being the one who first opened the gate

I want to see happy moments for El and Will. But I also want to see El and Will in normal real-life scenarios/situations in s3. Making it more obvious the trauma of their abusive father figures still affects them deeply, and how their PTSD, quiet nature, powers, and the fact that they never had real-childhoods, causes them to feel more socially isolated and depressed than their peers. As they perceive themselves as nothing but burdens and “freaks” to their loved ones , since they’ll never feel “normal”. But they’ll learn to rely on each other.

-Plus how does Will feel about El opening the gate? El in s1 called herself a “monster” and when she couldn’t find Barb and Will, she felt so much guilt- she had to go to the bathroom to cry. Since then Will has had years of his life stolen, gotten Ptsd, possessed, burned alive, (technically) became a murderer, and was forever mutated (we’ll get to that last point later). So I’m just curious how they both feel about the whole ‘gate-situation’?

8) Byler scenes, and Will interacting more with all of his friends (and seeing the distinctions in all of those relationships and how Mike/Will’s dynamic differers from his other guy-friends, or even Will &Max’s friendship). And just having strong platonic relationships. And (not platonic) byler dynamics. I also want to see how he interacts with strangers/bullies in ‘normal’ situations.

9) Theory: I already explained here, that Will, will have a ‘dark phoenix’ moment at the mall releasing his very own mindflayer to protect his friends (right as the US government comes in to see everything).

10/11) Will and El are kidnapped by the government -theory here. However, El willing exposes her identity in order to go with Will and protect him - theory here.

*gifs/pics not mine

#will byers #byler #el hopper #joyce hopper #stranger things theory

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