Hi, Muslim buddy! I'm a big Fitz fan and he's a popular character among the fans, so I was shocked when I found out that you disliked him. I'm curious: why exactly do you dislike him? I've seen a few of your posts about him but it's not exactly clear. I'm also not up to date with the show at all, so have you always disliked him or is it just recently?
Just to be clear, this is not a hate ask! We can have different opinions about a show, it's okay! I'm just curious about your reasoning. 💕
Salam!
First, I want to assure you your ask didn't come off as hateful at all, don't worry!
I tend to tag any fitz negative post as #anti leopold fitz so that fitz fans can easily block it and avoid any negative content about a character they like. You can block it too if you want!
Second, I want to give you a little warning. This will get very long, I apologize, however, please read all of it if you wish to reply/have a discussion. This goes to anyone reading this. I don't want to repeat myself several time (I will link other posts me and others have made that go into more detail)
As to why i dislike Fitz....there's a lot. (more under the cut)
During the earlier seasons (s1-2) I liked him, though certain scenes and things about his character bothered me. The same could be said about the majority of the other characters so I didn't think much of it. He could be funny, I liked the fitzsimmons friendship (for the most part) and he was a cool side character.
In s3 and s4, his character began to change more and more, and I found myself slowly starting to dislike him. There was suddenly more scenes where his words/actions bothered me.
Those seasons are also the ones where fitzsimmons actually got together, and I'm not a fan of the way that ship was handled, mostly due to what it did to Simmons' character. That played a role as well in me beginning to dislike him.
It wasn't until s5 though, specifically after the episode 5x14 "The Devil Complex" that i truly started disliking his character, and it just got worse from there.
I want to be clear that I don't judge or have a problem with anyone who likes his character. I don't think it's somehow 'immoral' if you like Fitz. I just simply don't, here's some reasons as to why:
Cutting open Daisy, threatening an injured, disabled Yoyo, and shooting Mack.
This is the biggest reason. In 5x14, Fitz programs robots to threaten Yoyo, shoot Mack, hold Simmons at gunpoint, and then he personally knocks out Daisy, restrains her, and cuts into her neck. He risks paralyzing her, forces her powers back onto her as she screams in pain and pleads for him to stop (he does this without giving her painkillers, without being certified to give that sort of procedure in the first place, and without the appropriate tools and space required for a surgery. She could have been permanently paralyzed from the neck down.) He throws around disgusting rhetoric, and the show tries to get us to sympathize with him. We get a scene with him and simmons. We get a scene of simmons crying to deke. We don't get a scene about daisy or mack's feelings in the aftermath.
"Fitz was having a psychic split" "he wasn't himself" "it was the doctor, not him!"
ignoring the fact that he was fully himself by the time it got to actually going through with the procedure (he realized he was the doctor all along, before getting to the 'cutting daisy' part) AND ignoring the show not letting him receive help yet him never struggling in that way again somehow (which all seems like bad writing to me) Fitz AFTERWARDS, stated that he didn't regret his actions.
Not only does he say that, but when Daisy is reasonably upset and traumatized, he attempts to dismiss her feelings, proceeds to try and guilt trip her, shift the blame to her, and throw back her previous trauma in her face.
Daisy: we don't turn on our own here
Fitz: do you want me to recount all the times YOU did?
A) Daisy hardly ever turned on them (a few instances could count but implying they do is awful, considering the circumstances she was in. Leaving shield does NOT count as a 'betrayal' or 'turning your back'. This is the SECOND time Fitz blames her for something that is ridiculously unfair. especially because HE is the one at fault here. He is so unapologetic to her.)
The following is taken from a wonderful post made by @stilltryingtowrite:
When a perpetrator of violence is confronted they will often deny or minimize the harm of their wrongdoing, attack their victim’s credibility, and reverse the victim and offender roles to make themselves out to be the victim. More info here.
So lets break down that scene in 5x15 when Daisy confronts Fitz after violating her consent in 5x14..
You can read the rest here but basically Fitz does the following things:
1. Denies and minimizes the harm of his wrongdoing
2. Attacks Daisy’s credibility as a victim
3. And tries to make her out to be the one in the wrong, while he simply did “what he had to do”
Another post, this one by me, that goes more into why Fitz implying Daisy turned on them is ridiculous. here
B) "Didn't have a choice" those are Fitz's words. he "didn't have a choice except to do what he did" That's just plain wrong and untrue.
he could've talked to her. he could have asked her. He could have explained how dire the situation was. He could have at least TRIED instead of immediately resorting to traumatizing her and and forcing her powers on her without her consent.
posts that go more into this that i highly recommend people read:
here by @geraltcirilla and @ryder616
and here by me
It doesn't end there. Afterwards, Daisy (reasonably) locks him up. he's a danger to the team. He's a danger to himself. Who knew what he might do next "without meaning to", and despite having hurt her and traumatized her and almost gotten her and his other friends injured, he agrees that she's somehow a "hard*ss" for being upset. For locking him up after he committed multiple crimes that could've resulted in her paralyzed for life.
And the majority of the fandom agreed with that statement. saw so many fans say stuff like "Daisy was acting like such a b**ch this season!"
Fitz repeatedly being selfish and careless with people's lives.
there have been numerous instances in the show where Fitz makes a terrible decision (that he knows is terrible) that could result in others' deaths, and he goes through with them every time, and is mostly unapologetic.
1) possibly the biggest one. S7 finale. This man quite literally, plans on having 7 billion people die, uncaring, because "it was an alternate timeline" and therefore wouldn't be HIS timeline. Nevermind that it was HIM who brought that danger to this alternate timeline in the first place.
posts: here by me, @stilltryingtowrite and @samanthaswishes
2) him and Simmons both getting their team members (and Simmons herself) killed in s7 several times. They programmed Enoch to kill anyone who tried to remove a chip from Simmons, without informing anyone, and then they erased Simmons' memories, meaning she also didn't know about the 'program to kill'. Enoch too, didn't know. Daisy, Deke, and Simmons all died from that. If there hadn't been a time loop, they could've permanently been dead. The reason for the programming of the chip was so stupid and made no sense.
Most would disagree with me, but a while back I made a post about why every possible reasoning for the chip's existence was stupid. here it is.
3) voting to let Piper kill herself. This is a post i made before:
Remember that part in the 100th aos episode when they thought one member of the team needed to die to save the day, and they were all tripping over themselves to try to be the one that will be sacrificed so that the others didn’t have to, except for fitz who immediately was like “let piper kill herself. She feels guilty enough to accept her fate” and then he got married that same ep. that was messed up.
LITERALLY. Everyone was like "let me be the one to die, so no one else has to!" (with the exception of Deke, who also kind of sucks) but Fitz is just like "Let Piper do it!" who DOES that?
He’s just perfectly willing to volunteer someone else to die, that’s just unacceptable.
4) In order to save Simmons in s3, he has no regards to anyone else, and risks Daisy's life without her consent. She would've agreed regardless but he just jumped into the portal after KNOWING Daisy was feeling certain side effects from the portal and after she'd fainted and had a nose bleed. She could've died and there was no apology.
5) He helps Hydra open a portal to Hive. It results it countless inhumans dying, Lincoln dying, and even others dying, all because Fitz didn't want to lose Jemma. he aided a Nazi organization that was planning on bringing some sort of ancient monster from another planet. He knew this and still did what they asked.
6) He fixes the gravitonium machine for Ruby, knowing it was gravitonium that causes the entire WORLD to be destroyed. Again, just for Simmons. (so many times, he chooses one person's life, over the entire world.)
post by @samanthaswishes here
Fitz mistreating Simmons, and the Fitzsimmons relationship being misogynistic (imo)
So here’s me summarizing while also linking posts that go into more details about all the things wrong with he fs relationship (which contributes to me disliking his character)
blaming jemma for having the audacity to care for another man before they were even in a relationship: by me
general issues about simmons never getting to be her own character due to fitz and fs relationship: by anon
fitz getting angry at the idea of living with simmons: by me
the entirety of fitzsimmons being her acting like a mother/caretaker for him, instead of an actual partner: by me
fitz talking trash about simmons when she's not there
why fs relationship is bad, why it's unfair to simmons, and fitz' jealousy knowing no bounds: by me
Fitz being completely insensitive and ignorant to others' suffering.
there have been numerous instances in the show where he’s just...insensitive to others’ suffering.
1. (this one is understandable, but when you add it up with everything else, it shows a clear pattern) In s1, After Ward is revealed to be hydra, revealed to have killed several people (a man being questioned, Victoria Hand, two police officers, Keonig) and after he’d just KIDNAPPED Skye, threatened her, and locked her up, Fitz tells Skye, TO HER FACE, that he doesn’t buy it. That there is no way Ward could’ve done that. Despite Skye herself having just been kidnapped and traumatized and literally told by Ward himself.
It’s not until Ward hurts HIM specifically, that he actually believes it, and by then it’s too late.
It’s just really terrible, in my opinion, to look a victim of someone directly in the eye, and say you don’t believe it or that there must have been a mistake, etc...
2. Immediately after Simmons gets back from being kidnapped on an alien planet for 6 months, Fitz takes her to a fancy restaurant for a date, without telling her. She immediately starts crying for a variety of reasons and he comforts her (which is good), but the idea of taking her to a date right after she went through a horrible ordeal and when it’s still VERY fresh, and she’s still not sleeping well, and still coping with everything, is highly insensitive, and was clearly something to just make himself better rather than her.
Maybe he thought that would cheer her up? Except it was still insensitive on his part.
3. While I pointed this out in the fitzsimmons section, it bears repeating.
When Simmons is upset, because a man she admitted she loved was in literal danger on an alien planet, Fitz goes on about his suffering and “the universe splitting them apart” despite it being not the time nor place. He goes as far as to contemplate whether he should save an innocent man’s life or not. In that scene, you can see how exhausted and emotionally drained Jemma is, but he goes on and on, saying things that do nothing except make her feel guilty because...she dared have feelings for someone else? That entire scene was just him letting out all his frustrations and anger and hurt (which, understandable) on her, even though she was the one going through a rough time and his words only made her feel much worse and unfairly blame herself for things outside of her control. It’s as if he was using her as an emotional punching bag (that, is not as understandable).
Worse, s6 makes it clear he still held a grudge against her, even though she’s the one who suffered. She’s the one who lost someone she cared about. She’s the one who grieved. She’s the one who had to deal with that.
4. When Daisy leaves shield, after having been brainwashed, forced to hurt people she cares about, forced to go through withdrawal, forced to watch her boyfriend literally die for her (she’d spent months seeing his very last moments in her head so she even knew the exact second he died and how it happened), and after the government had decided people like her needed to be monitered and forced to sign accords that would take away some of her rights, Fitz makes it all about him.
She’s sitting in front of him, injured, and suicidal, and clearly not doing well, and all he can do is berate her, yell at her, accuse of her of “turning her back” and “not caring”.
He never apologizes. She’s literally yelled at, and treated like crap, while going through the worst period of her life and being in a terrible place, physically, emotionally, and mentally, and all he can do is think about himself and how he personally doesn’t like change. Talk about being a terrible friend.
Contrast that to her comforting him and standing by him at the end of s4, when he was freaking out about his actions in the framework, and... well... he was clearly being unfair to her.
5. This one, isn’t as big of a deal because it was just something that slipped out, but like... saying “maybe getting your arms chopped off wasn’t all bad” (or something very very similar) to Yoyo, literally a few days after her surgery and after she was mutilated is just...wrong.
It was clear he immediately recognized that he shouldn’t have said that, but holy crap, COME ON MAN!This is just moments after he was broken out of his cell (which he was placed in, for harming several other teammates.)
6. The way he treated Deke. Everyone else had clear reasons to distrust/dislike Deke at first. Fitz didn’t, yet even upon discovering Deke was HIS grandson, he tells Deke he wished someone else was his godson, and spends the rest of the season treating him like complete and utter garbage.
I mean, I have issues with Deke’s character, but what in the hell was Fitz’s problem?? It’s not like Fitz himself was better than Deke.
7. I’ve said before, but basically throwing the rest of the team in s7 to the wolves, and then having the audacity to go “you guys didn’t do things according to plan!” when they didn’t even know the plan. Also “no, we shouldn’t help save all of humanity in another timeline from a problem we personally brought to them and that would kill them, making their death and destruction on us, because then it would reduce our chances of success by a few percentages”
How is this guy even real???
So there you have it, this was very long, but these are the reasons (with examples) of why i dislike Fitz. This isn’t to make anyone agree, and I’’’ repeat what I said earlier: I have no problems at all with fans who like Fitz. I just personally don’t.
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I have FINALLY watched all the AOS movies and I have some Thots under the cut.
The entire three movies I had a very pervasive sense of “this doesn’t feel like Star Trek” and I didn’t know why until I watched Beyond tonight. I think the issue is that in AOS (I’ve seen TOS, a few of the OG movies and some of TNG for reference) they mostly cause their own problems and subsequently have to fix them. Which I don’t think is bad writing! But it’s not Star Trek, for me.
Maybe as someone so new to this fandom I shouldn’t be talking about what “is” and “isn’t” Star Trek, but in my experience, the characters stumble onto a problem and fix it, rather than causing the problem themselves and then cleaning up after themselves. Again, I don’t think it’s bad writing, but the message of Star Trek to me has always been something along the lines of “leave the universe a better place than you found it,” and in AOS that message seems a bit lost.
I think the first of the AOS movies (hereafter referred to as “09″) could have benefitted from a lot more time spent on Jim’s backstory. It felt very rushed in my opinion, and if I didn’t have the background of watching TOS, I would be very unsure why I should be invested in this character. I also think (and I think I saw this on Tumblr, but I don’t remember the original poster) that the choice to make Spock’s strong emotions anger rather than caring was . . . a choice. It comes across as really toxically masculine in a way that TOS Spock never came across for me, and I know these are different characters with different upbringings, but in 09 Spock felt extremely different to me.
In 09 I also got literally no hint that Spock and Uhura were a thing. It was very much as though the writers knew how popular K/S is, and were like “Okay, well, we can’t have gay people in this movie, so we need Spock to be with someone.” It’s a rule of writing romance that if the characters have to kiss for the audience to know they’re in love, you’re not writing effective romance, and I wouldn’t have known Spock had any feelings for Uhura beyond “coworker” had they not kissed in some of the least passionate, most sexless kiss scenes I’ve ever seen in my life. The whole thing felt very fake to me, and almost like comphet on Spock’s part, as though he’d heard dating a woman was the “right” thing to do and so he did it to appear more human - but that’s a meta for another post.
Into Darkness actually held my attention much more than 09 and Beyond did, and I think that’s because the plot was a weird mashup of TWOK and Space Seed. I truly hated watching B*nedict C*mberbatch for two hours, and I really wished they’d talked more about the fact that Khan is a eugenicist and mass murderer. The way they chose to portray Khan in Into Darkness felt very much to me like someone watched 2012 Avengers, saw how Loki exploded into popularity, and thought “we can do that” but failed to realize that Loki is an actually likeable character because he’s not a eugenicist and mass murderer. (At least, not to the scale that Khan is.) Into Darkness also felt, to me, like Spock and Uhura’s relationship was starting to break down because he was falling for Kirk.
I know, I know, shipping goggles are a real thing, but a lot of Spock’s actions in Into Darkness were . . . not the actions of a friend. Into Darkness was probably the most enjoyable for me of the three, both because I found the plot to be the strongest and the characters to be the most enjoyable. I thought Spock in particular had a lot of development behind the scenes between 09 and Into Darkness, because Into Darkness Spock felt a lot more like the Spock I’m used to seeing in TOS. He was bitchy, and he wasn’t afraid to make his opinion known, and he was embracing his humanity, and he was willing to be friends with people. He felt like a much more three-dimensional character as opposed to in 09.
In Beyond, the same problem arises for me that 09 had - why did this need to be a Star Trek movie? Both films for me felt as though it could have been any other sci-fi IP and the story wouldn’t have suffered. Beyond, in particular, felt very Star Wars to me. Again, Star Wars movies aren’t bad, and I actually really like them! But I came here for Star Trek, I’d like to see Star Trek. I also found my mind wandering a lot in Beyond, which isn’t what you want in a movie.
I will say in Beyond I could have actually believed, for the first time, that Spock had feelings for Uhura beyond coworker. Was it romance? No, but I would have bought it as pre-romance. If they’d used that dynamic in 09 I would have been much more willing to believe Spock liked Uhura even the slightest bit romantically.
I unexpectedly really liked Jaylah and Scotty’s dynamic in Beyond. My first impression of Jaylah was definitely “hot girl who’s good at fighting” in the way that women in men’s movies are often portrayed, but she actually had some depth to her (albiet not much) and I very much appreciated how they didn’t go for a romance between her and Scotty, but rather a siblings-type or maybe mentor-mentee relationship. I’m still not pleased that they gave her high heels, though, lmao. In TOS it wasn’t so much of a problem because everyone was in high heels, but it’s very noticeable if it’s only the women!
I think throughout the movies Karl Urban gave a delightful performance as Bones. I really enjoyed him - I love a sarcastic bitch character, and I really like Bones and Spock’s dynamic in TOS, and I appreciated seeing them banter again. AOS Bones is probably the character that I think is the most faithful to TOS Bones, although, again, I know they’re technically different people who just happen to have the same name.
I also really liked Simon Pegg as Scotty. I really like Simon Pegg as an actor in general, and I think AOS Scotty suffers a bit from one-liner syndrome, where he has to have a cool one-liner for every situation (*coughmarvelcough*) but generally I really enjoyed his performance. And I loved his little friend! I don’t remember his name, but I’ll admit I’m a sucker for a CGI character.
Ultimately, I don’t know if I’ll watch these movies again. They felt a little “normie” for lack of a better word, a little gimmicky especially in terms of the dialogue, and it didn’t have the charm and goofiness I’ve come to expect from Star Trek. With the exceptions of socially-acceptable one-liners and quips, there was very little humour outside of Bones and Spock’s interactions, and I think the fact that these movies took themselves too seriously didn’t do them any favours. I also think Beyond could have had about half an hour or twenty minutes shaved off its runtime and no one would have missed it. But I’m glad I watched them, if only so now I can participate in discussions with other fans of the universe.
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