#and i don't ask for concrit

[eoinmcgonigal]

Btw if you enjoyed reading anything I've written, I'm *always* happy to get comments. No expiry date on this.

#i also read tags added to posts reblogged on here XD #bless all comment-leavers on ao3 #and also people who still sometimes comment on my ff.net fic #obviously negative stuff isn't good i write for free as a hobby #and i don't ask for concrit #but even keysmashing lets me know someone had a reaction to the words!! #document type: memo #also being unsubtle as i'm having a hard time with writing just now #and i miss the days where people would talk more to each other about these things bc it would fuel me #i do have a little rule with ongoing fic that i only reply when i upload the next chapter #this is so that the comments don't disappear from my brain and they act as encouragement #but i will *always* be up for talking about fic #the more excited you are for it the more excited i am to write it!!! #so yeah if it seems like no one's really interested or excited it gets kinda lonely and pointless #ah i think i'm complaining now but honestly fandom should be a lot of talking to each other #these days it's mostly reduced to a click or two #and that makes me sad #talk to me!! i love the thing!! and the characters!!! and making stuff happen to them!! #and thinking about them!!

[ryanthedemiboy]

I get enough comments on my comments on hp fics from years ago (most from 6-7 years ago!), mostly negative, that it makes me want to delete every comment i've ever made on every hp fic.

Except that's not how AO3 works and it'd be hell, but I am deleting them as people find them and start giving me hell.

#i was correcting spelling and grammar #for the ones i'm getting hell on #i don't know if the writer asked for concrit or if i decided to give it #regardless it's like. you can see how long ago i wrote the comment. shut up #ugh #anyways

[knaivcs]

Send in some constructive criticism.

Everyone has room for improvement. Go on anon and tell me any issues you notice with my writing and/or muse!

#† ask meme. #I sometimes feel like I CAN'T proofread my own work anymore just because I am so freaking used to it #it makes it hard to find an area I need to work on #I know I repeat words and phrases I like sometimes so gotta stop that #like it was nice the first time I wrote it we don't need an encore in every reply lololol #I want to be good enough to publish a book so any concrit would be so so appreciated! #repost of the meme since the source link is kaputsky

[olderthannetfic]

I'm beginning to realize that my closest fandom friend is... not a good friend, for me.

When they're doing well, they're awesome -the best beta reader, hype man, partner-in-shipping-crime you could wish for. The first year we knew each other, we'd talk every day, some days for hours on end, often getting really personal. I never before had anyone in my life who encouraged my creativity like that; they supported me in learning to draw, wrote pages and pages of concrit on my fics, seemed to genuinely enjoy my work... it was kinda heady. Addictive.

When they're not doing well however, they... disappear. And they have a habit of ghosting people, deleting their account, and creating a wholly new identity in a fresh fandom when they're "good" again. They didn't do it last time they went through a depressive episode... but they did do a big disappearing act for a bit, and the realization of how little our connection meant to them and how easily they could cut me out really... damaged something.

I've tried to let it go. But... their new "happy stuff only" boundaries (never share anything too personal or real -something they insisted on post-latest depressive episode), their habit of disappearing for days (even weeks) on end with no word (leaving me worried AF for their health), the fact that I clearly care more about them than they care about me... it's like salt in a wound.

And yet, I feel like I can't cut them out -their "good self" is the best friend I've ever had in my life. I just... feel incredibly disposable, and like receiving that amazing friendship and support depends on me having no needs, no sorrows, and existing at their convenience only.

I don't really know what to do.

Sorry for the giant text block T_T (Thank you for having open asks)

--

Drop them.

I think you're wrong about them not caring as much as you do. The pattern they're displaying is someone whose life is spiraling out of control, not someone who just doesn't care.

However, people who have a ghosting problem do not get better.

Not without multiple years of offline stuff changing and probably some hard work on their part that has nothing to do with you and that you cannot affect in any way.

You will not go back to the honeymoon period even if they decide you can talk about non-happy things again, and more to the point, they're going to ghost you again and again and again.

The way to make that stop is to stop being in contact with them.

[thestalwartheart]

Any suggestion for newbies on how to overcome fear of posting? New fic, new chapters, smut, kinks.. name it.

there is so much out there. Of jaw dropping quality. Why should I?

the fear of judgment is suffocating me sometimes.

I love this question ❤️

Firstly, (and most importantly!!!), your work is unique and worthy because it's yours. No one has your brain or your exact take on those characters. And that's why you should post! If you have a story you loved enough to write, someone will absolutely love reading it.

Secondly, there is no better fandom than the Bond fandom for jumping into the unknown. It's a small fandom at the moment, and the readers are so kind. There will always be a lovely commenter to cheer you on. Basically, if you're looking for a place to start, start here!

Especially in the Bond fandom, people aren't thinking, "Oh no, I read a similar plot last week!" or "Oh no, more smut?" We're just happy there's still new stories and new fans around to chat with, and to enjoy art with! Or, to put all of this in meme form:

Beyond that, here are a couple of practical things that have helped me overcome The Fear:

If you're worried about negative feedback, a) think about turning off anon comments (few people have the gall to post hateful comments with a real username), and b) maybe put a line in your author's note saying you aren't looking for constructive criticism (on AO3 it's pretty much an unwritten rule not to post concrit, but if you're posting elsewhere, you may want to clarify).

If it's spelling/grammar/plotholes/britpicking/any other issue of quality you're worried about, consider finding a trusted beta reader to give you advice on the specific things you want to improve on! I don't do it for all my fics, but for the age of change, I've been asking Mlle_Heloise to give me feedback on the voices of my child characters. Also, beta readers are some of the best hype people ever!! They can gie you a lot of confidence to share your story with more people.

I hope this has helped in some small way ❤️ And please, if anyone else has any notes of encouragement, leave them in the replies and reblogs!

#ask box

[nientedal]

On Constructive Criticism.

Hey friends. You ever want to leave a critique on a fic, and the author says they like constructive criticism/"concrit," but then you leave your critique and you try to make it complimentary but the author still seems less than thrilled with you? You may have missed the point of "constructive!" Don't feel bad, you aren't alone. Took me until I started writing and receiving feedback to really figure it out.

The key to remember is, "constructive" doesn't mean "nice." It doesn't mean phrasing gently, or doing a compliment sandwich (although those are fine things to do as well). "Constructive" feedback is feedback that would make the story as the author has already written it stronger.

"The execution of this character's decision to do XYZ felt a little bit out of nowhere, to me. Was that your intent? It didn't seem like it was meant to be a big twist, either. Maybe some extra foreshadowing would make it stronger, or some shock on the part of the other characters." THAT'S constructive criticism.

This is NOT constructive criticism: "This character doing XYZ thing really doesn't make for as strong a story as it could. I think he should have done NQD thing, instead. That would have been better."

The first example offers some ideas on how to help a character's decision land better when the reader couldn't tell what the author's intent was. It's possible the reader didn't like the decision and that's why they noticed - maybe some foreshadowing would have helped them accept it better, or some indication that it was meant to be shocking would have validated the reader's surprise & displeasure. But, crucially, the reader did not suggest anything that would require a massive rewrite. Some tweaking, sure, maybe the addition of a few paragraphs. But not a change to the character's decision as a whole, the way the second example suggested. The second example does describe something the reader thinks would make for a stronger story...but it is not something that would make THIS story stronger. It is describing a different story than the one the author has already written so far, so it's just plain ol' criticism. Constructive criticism makes the existing story stronger.

That's the difference. You aren't workshopping. You are commenting on something that is already being written, that is already planned to the point where someone is already posting it. There is a BIG DIFFERENCE between workshopping a story and simply giving concrit! Unless the author has specifically asked for workshop-style help, offering things to do differently from what was already written is worse than useless. Don't.

Rule of thumb: if what you're saying can be boiled down to "I think this cake would be better if it was pie," say something else. The cake is not pie. It's not GOING to be pie. I didn't ask what you think I should bake, I put cake on the table and asked what you thought of this cake. Tell me what would make THIS cake better. Not the pie you were thinking of, and not a different cake you might have liked better. THIS CAKE.

#writing #constructive criticism #concrit #fanfic #fandom #@ my fellow authors... it's also important for us to remember that even constructive feedback isn't always right #maybe the reader simply missed the foreshadowing that was there #maybe they just really really hated the character's decision and would have needed way more foreshadowing in order to accept it #but your other readers were fine #take everything with a grain of salt; don't jump to change things just because someone else thinks you should #*is* this how you want to write it? yes? then leave it #it's fine #someone not liking your work doesn't mean you should change it #just like someone getting upset when you say No doesn't mean you should have said Yes

[writingquestionsanswered]

Hello! Do you have any advice on how to deal with the fear of bad-faith readers? Thanks to spending too much time online during Covid, my confidence took a huge hit, and now I’m quite worried about random online users discovering my writing and complaining that my writing is not good enough, not diverse enough, not social justicey enough, etc. It’s often made me hesitate a lot during my writing recently, so any advice to deal with this would be much appreciated. Thank you!

Fear of Negative Feedback/Reviews

Three things to keep in mind here:

#1 Reviews and comments aren't feedback. Unless you post your story to a place dedicated to writer feedback or where you're specifically asking for feedback, any commentary or review you receive is not there to educate you. It's either there as thanks and/or flattery, or it's there to let other readers know what to expect. On sites like AO3, for example, unless you specifically ask for concrit, you will probably only get neutral or positive commentary which isn't feedback. If you get negative comments, just ignore them if you didn't ask for them.

#2 Reviews are for readers. Let me say that again...

Reviews are for readers to let other readers know what they liked and didn't like about a book. They are not there for the author's harm or benefit. They're not there to educate the author. They're there for other readers, full stop.

Write the best story you can write, and if you can, utilize feedback tools meant for writers (alpha readers, writing groups, critique partners, sensitivity readers, beta readers, editors...) to ensure your story is everything you want it to be.

If your alpha readers, writing groups, critique partner/s, sensitivity readers, beta readers, or editors have concerns about representation in your story, those are the issues you need to address.

Once your story is out in the world, let it go, especially if negative reviews hurt your confidence and mental health. If you inadvertently do something terrible that blows up, listen, apologize, and take steps to do better next time. That's it.

#3 Everyone isn't going to love your story. All writers get bad reviews. If you expect to receive only glowing praise on every story, you're setting yourself up for disappointment.

Don Quixote by Miguel de Cervantes is a beloved classic that has sold an estimated 500 million copies worldwide since it was first published in 1605. Among the reviews on Amazon: "repetitive and frustrating," "book is trash, don't know why it's a classic," "I absolutely hated this book," "silly, lengthy, display of low humor."

A Tale of Two Cities by Charles Dickens is another beloved classic, and it has sold an estimated 200 million copies worldwide since publication in 1859. Among the reviews on Amazon: "boring as heck," "incomprehensible jibberish," "has significant flaws," "great if you want a nice nap," "way too slow and boring."

The Hobbit by J.R.R. Tolkien is a classic that is still very popular and beloved today, and has sold an estimated 100 million copies since its publication in 1937. Among the reviews on Amazon: "very slow paced and confusing," "I found it mind-numbingly dull," "the worst piece of writing ever," "zoned out because I was bored."

The Da Vinci Code by Dan Brown is a hugely popular contemporary book that has sold an estimated 80-million copies worldwide since its publication in 2003. Among the reviews on Amazon: "One of the worst, if not THE worst book I've read, ever," "much ado about not much," "couldn't overlook the shallow characters, boring car chases, and general lack of quality," "unnecessary ramblings about scenery," "horribly written, full of cliches."

All stories have people who don't like them. Period.

It's something we have to accept as writers.

As long as we're doing our best to put the best possible stories out there, and as long as we listen and learn when legitimate concerns are brought to our doorstep, we're doing all we can.

•••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••

I’ve been writing seriously for over 30 years and love to share what I’ve learned. Have a writing question? My inbox is always open!

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[the-stolen-century]

@itsgrandmasguy's amazing Raeda MV has the line "line my eyes and call me pretty", which has taken over my brain. So here's pre-Snapdragon Hill Raine asking Eda to try her signature winged eyeliner.

The video in question:

I was imagining a situation like maybe Eda is planning a heist at a fancy party where palismen are forbidden, but she needs them as getaway vehicles, so they're planning to just kind of pretend that Owlbert and Fiddlesticks are parts of their fancy outfits? No way that could go wrong, right? An important part of the plan is to look so stunning nobody will have any brain cells left to spare on thoughts of palismen.

Raine: Hey, if you really want us to look distractingly stunning, you should do my makeup. Because yours always takes my breath away.

Outfits inspired by visual kei and the Alexander McQueen Fall 2006 Ready-to-Wear collection.

Tentative colour scheme:

Thoughts and concrit on colours, outfit choices (like does Raine need a fancier hat?), how to make Fiddlesticks look less bored and less catlike without blocking view of Eda's hand (yeah I used a cat as a reference, apparently foxes don't typically drape themselves over people's shoulders, v. disappointing), how to make them look at each other in an even more besotted manner, or anything else highly welcome.

#raeda #toh fanart #raine whispers #owlbert #eda clawthorne #the owl house #fiddlesticks #toh raeda #thinking with quadrants art #my art

[mixelation]

i thought about replying to this post, but then decided it'd be better to make my own. tl;dr OP states that they don't mind a lot types of comments AO3 writers commonly complain about and then calls for writers to read their comments in good faith. i was going to just scroll by this as it seemed to be presented as "this is my personal preference," but then OP calls for more writers to share their feelings. so i thought it might help to explain why i personally don't like certain types of comments

first, OP brings up pointing out typos multiple times. i absolutely despise having typos pointed out, although personally i don't know any other writers who care too much. i delete comments that just point out typos with no other commentary, and the fact that i don't delete comments with actual comments AND a typo pointed out is mostly because the idea makes me feel bad for the commenter. my personal hatred for the typo comments is linked more to being bullied for being dyslexic than anything else, but i do think a list of typos with nothing else is a pretty rude comment, and it ties into why giving unsolicited "constructive criticism" is, imho, rude or at the very least largely annoying

a lot of people say unsolicited concrit is bad because "fic is free." this isn't the reason. it's still rude to personally contact a writer with your criticisms even if you paid for it (assuming you didn't, you know, commission it or otherwise have a right to give such feedback). it's because concrit is essentially useless unless the person providing it understands the goals of the writer and wants to help the writer to those goals. on ao3, the writer's goal might have been to write a little story in one sitting. it might have been to write something hyper self-indulgent and so niche that it makes no sense to any other human being. the writer's goal might not be anything that would necessitate concrit at all. and, no offense, but most "constructive criticism" from random people on the internet is just "you didn't write the story i personally wanted to read" rather than anything that has to do with the story itself. on top of that, when i give people stuff for spelling and grammar, a stunning percentage of the time, people make "corrections" which are simply unnecessary or flat out incorrect. you are not a copy editor, and unless the writer asked in their notes, they have not asked you to edit. don't do it.

also, when you point out typos, there's an implied assumption you expect the writer to fix them. otherwise, why point them out? and the writer has no obligation to do things for you

other types of comments in the post:

‘I don’t usually like this ship but this fic made me feel something’ - I don't personally mind this one unless the tone is REALLY hostile to whatever ship (or trope, or character, or whatever). The reason why this one is often construed as rude is that the writer presumably is a fan of the ship, since they're writing about it. If you criticize other fics about the ship, then you might be criticizing things the author really enjoys. I think tone is a big factor here; this genre of comment can get way more hostile than OP's example.

‘looking forward to the next update’ / ‘I hope you update soon!’ - The wording of both of these is mild, but keep in mind writers with lots of fics have likely fielded a decent number of "update now you [slur]" comments. Also this is inappropriate to say on a fic marked completed (surprisingly common!). My experience on AO3 is that the really aggressive "update now!!" comments are fewer than they used to be and fewer than on FFN, but a lot of writers are still made tired by them. I'd suggest saying something more like "I'm excited to see where this goes" and make sure the fic isn't complete.

‘I love this fic but I’m curious about why you made [x] choice’ - I don't think most writers would mind this one, actually. Usually writers like it when you ask them questions about their work. If I gave any commentary, I'd be a bit careful about tone again-- if you just write "why'd you do [x]" with nothing else, it could come off abrasive or like you think the choice was bad.

i do agree with OP's contention that one's experience as a writer on AO3 will improve if they engage comments in good faith. i disagree with the idea that reading in good faith means every type of comment below outright harassment is appropriate or not annoying. i do not think reading in good faith and just accepting anything anyone says to you are the same. i also don't really believe that writers complaining about annoying comments is creating a comment scarcity, mostly because i don't believe in the purported comment crisis everyone is upset about, and also because i know there were entire LJ communities dedicated to asshole comments. it's not really new.

#mixed bag

[tricksterlatte]

I've always been fascinated by fandom history, and I know I'm not the only one. It's interesting to see how fans of pop culture can create a culture of their own, and in the modern age of social media and the internet in general, that culture is as widespread as ever. Unfortunately, that also means downsides are becoming bigger as this culture becomes widespread, and it's saddening to watch, maybe even concerning.

I don't discuss these things to be preachy, especially considering how I've fallen into several of these pitfalls before, and have perpetuated some of this behavior in the past. To say otherwise would make me a hypocrite and a liar, and I firmly believe this goes for most people in any fandom. I was just thinking about this recently, and how a lot of the biggest stressors in what should be our stress relief really can be pinned mostly into a few central talking points, which I would love to discuss to know if I'm not just going crazy here

The concept of Big Name Fan has evolved into a position of authority on fandom, which does not fall to anyone regarding subjectivity. No one in a fandom is an authority except the creators themselves, who have every right to stay away from the fandoms they have birthed.

Popularity in general being conflated to intellectual authority as well, especially on websites with public stats, particularly following counts. The algorithm is no benevolent god, but people will sometimes see someone with 30k followers and think they are correct on a minor non-issue that has spiraled into discourse, especially when compared to someone with 30 followers. This also is just...a bummer when fanon evolves into perceived canon, and newcomers to the fandom can't post even innocuous meta or headcanons without it being perceived as morally/intellectually incorrect.

Monetization of fanworks, but especially zines, have led to a hypercompetitive atmosphere that only escalates the bitterness and resentment. This is not a universal problem, but many zines across all fandoms habitually accept the same artists and writers, or diminish the value of fanfic due to the limitations of physical printing. The application process has devolved into such a disheartening debacle for a majority of people I see, and the way it is often framed as "your work just wasn't good enough" when it's really about what the mods deem mass marketable will destroy just about anyone's self-esteem after repetitive rejections, and will give some frequent zine runners a false sense of final say over the community (not usually, but it can happen).

The level of distrust for anyone new attempting to start a fan project is just so depressing nowadays (and this one we sadly can blame on a few people by name, but the ones who have sent this issue spiraling still don't care and that just sucks. I feel horrible for everyone who has been tricked).

Somehow comment and anonymous asks have gone backwards from "don't feed the trolls" to "suck it up, at least you're getting comments." I have seen some of these comments people have been told to suck up. It's not okay in general. It's particularly gross when it's an anonymous hate message unrelated to the fanworks themselves, perhaps born out of resentment or bearing an ulterior motive. And some will even attack and defame character due to identity. It's not subtle. It's not okay. People should absolutely be dunked on for this, and I gotta say I'm sick of unsolicited concrit being enforced as positive either. If they didn't ask, don't give it. There's a reason a lot of fic writers some people adore suddenly go ghost, and they can't even talk about it.

Don't like, don't read has been discarded in favor of don't like, tell others don't read and also don't write. Transformative works don't have to fit into a canon or even in character mold. That's why they're transformative! It's a different type of artistic expression. If you don't like it, chances are good it simply wasn't meant for you. It's not bad. Don't shame others, god especially not for non-issues such as a t/b preference or a different gender hc, preferred haircuts, types of animal you imagine them as in another lifetime, I could list literally anything here and I bet there has been a fandom fight over it.

Exclusive yet publicly advertised community Discords that will bar you from invite if you're not one of the cool kids. I have unfortunately fallen into this trap before, and refuse to ever enable or endorse that behavior ever again. This isn't about friend groups either, it's about fandom-dedicated servers that flaunt themselves as a VIP club instead of what they are: a friend group. I also don't even know how to broach the subject of private accounts that turn into fandom tea accounts with dozens if not hundreds of followers, only for people to be angry if someone isn't exactly okay with horrific stuff being said in general, let alone about their mutuals or friends.

I know none of this will likely ever change, and tbh i'm so tired of it all, but...does anyone else know what I mean? I'm stressed out whenever I try to enjoy myself, because popularity and a strange business mindset is steadily taking over fandom spaces. I'm not saying people should stop trying to make stuff that sells, or that people universally do any of this, but fandom is evolving into a thing I'm not sure is good. idk anymore

#parker says things #the last point stresses me out particularly after a HUGE mess during the 2010s #in which an ex mutual deepfaked a twt for someone they hated to try and tell others they were being made fun of #and then it went wrong anyways but god #i keep seeing these patterns over and over and somehow they keep getting worse! #Why has being mean become so normal? and popular? Actually it's more like #why has being mean but ESPECIALLY IN PUBLIC become acceptable? #if you couldn't say it to someone at a con without getting backlash don't say it here #I may not like those discords but at least the tiniest ones with 3-5 like minded people won't poison a community #and unfortunately I worry about fandom community! It's stagnating or becoming toxic but publicly now #people have always been like this but now it's becoming...okay to bash others again. I hate it. Don't be like FF dot net comment sections : #i lost my train of thought partially bc I wrote half of this and had to pause but #idk it's just frustrating! And I'm actually not okay with it! I've dealt with my own stuff but my friends and even people I don't know- #have dealt with a million times worse #I wouldn't wish this crap even upon people i don't like!! what is wrong with some people

[not-poignant]

Out of curiosity, when did the, 'fanfic doesn't need to adhere to canon, everything is valid and good, don't give concrit unless specifically asked for' attitude become the norm? Genuine question.

I was active in fandom back in the LJ days, when sporkings and comms viciously mocking Mary Sues were the norm, but then I sort fell out of fandom spaces for the past (checks notes) fifteen years holy shit. The current attitude seems diametrically opposed to what I remember fandom being like (kinda shitty, it was 'cool' to be an asshole back then), and I'm just curious as to when and how the shift happened. I mean, I assume it was a gradual thing, but is there anything in particular that stick out to you?

(Also, because tone doesn't convey very well through ask, and I don't want to leave you with a poor impression-- this is by no means a defence of the 2000s attitudes, nor an aspersion on the current ones. I'm genuinely only curious about the evolution from one to the other; I hope that comes across.)

Hi anon!

TL;DR because my response got LONG -> Anon this existed before Livejournal as an attitude, in fact modern fandom was literally born out of being not canon compliant (*waves aggressively to Spirk shippers*) and this existed on Livejorunal too and there have always been big pockets of fandom that really frowned on sporking even there, like that was not cool when I was on LJ, unless you were a certain age, or in certain spaces in fandom.

But also AO3 was its kind of final death knell re: making it cool to bully 13-16 yo writers (who were largely the victims of sporking) and killing dreams, which was born out of meta happening on LJ and in other places about like... not trying to make people miserable for writing a free fic out of the love in their heart that someone else didn't like or think was good enough.

Anyway, the longer version of this under the read more!

(For everyone else, welcome to some of the uglier aspects of 00s fandom!)

So there was actually criticism around all the stuff you mention 15-20 years ago as well. I was also on Livejournal during that time and there was a pretty big proportion of people in certain fandoms who recognised even then that like... setting up communities to mock say, Mary Sue writers, was actually a pretty weirdly cruel thing to do to people who were providing free labour and the literal only 'payment' they could get in a kind of energy exchange was people just not being complete dickheads to them.

So things were already changing, especially in many LJ communities and awards communities. There were a lot of big debates over whether concrit should be asked for, and a growing movement of authors who said they welcomed constructive criticism for example, instead of assuming it should automatically apply. There was also a lot of meta around the function of fanfiction and whether it should even be 'good' by published standards if the author was just doing it for themselves, and for fun (esp if they were just going to get punished for it by folks who were elitist, judgemental, grammar purists etc.)

Things really changed around the time of AO3 (2009-2010 - literally around 14~ years ago, you may have just missed the big change anon!), Strikethrough and the Dreamwidth exodus. There was a massive swing away from leaving concrit unless the author specifically asked for it, and fandom became a lot more generally able to recognise that a lot of labour goes into fanart and fanfiction and that paying with public criticism is shitty actually. Also people were just more able to recognise that like most fanfiction writers aren't trying to become professional writers and many don't want to be.

(I would actually say things changed around the time of fanfiction.net too - rude comments there were definitely noticed and could create some pretty forward 'hey why are you doing this on something you literally don't have to read' responses from fellow readers - idk what fic sites you were on. The small indie fic sites where you could often only comment via email for example, definitely drew a lot more critical attention than sites that tended to have public comments).

The 'fanfic doesn't need to adhere to canon' literally exists since the very first Spirk slash fic in modern fanfiction in the last few decades. Literally, as soon as you write Kirk/Spock, you're not adhering to canon. Our fanfiction 'ancestors' literally paved the way for a legacy which is about not adhering to canon in order to see the world/s and thing/s you want to see, be entertained by, by turned on by, or enjoy, from the very beginning. You may not have been in slash circles anon, but the foundation of queer same sex fanfic is in many ways the foundation of fandom. But yeah, this is literally where fanfiction started! As soon as you're shipping characters that aren't canon for fun (or for whatever reason), you're making it pretty clear that you want stories different to canon, and you have to change things to often keep those characters in-character.

So yeah! That's been there for decades. Idk what circles you were in on that front! While it was fairly common for a while to criticise characters for being OOC (Out of Character), imho, a lot of folks started to recognise that they literally weren't paying for what they were criticising, and they could just walk away and potentially not like...blast the fanfic. Some folks started to recognise more that people were writing with ESL, or were teenagers (some 40 yos in fandom realised they were mocking literal 15 year olds in their proto-podcasts and websites and realised actually that's just...mean? Really mean? Not the way to nurture new generations of fanfiction writers. Definitely in no way encouraging), or were writing for themselves, or writing for like one other person, or writing for fun, or writing for free, or writing for personal reasons etc.

'Don't Like Don't Read' wasn't just about political stuff, it was also about just walking away if you feel the urge to slam a fanfic in the comments.

I've been in fandom for around 2.5 decades anon, and there were so many spaces that were not actually as shitty or mean-spirited as the ones you were in? Or ones that at least had a lot of different thoughts etc. Like, sporking (mocking/bullying badfics and sometimes the folks who wrote them) was disapproved of by a lot of people in fandom even while sporking was at the height of its popularity (the Fanlore page goes into more detail about this). It might have just been the fandoms you were in, or the people you were hanging out with (and that might have been dependent on your age or just if you were around people who wanted to be 'cool' back then - in the same way that being an 'anti' is cool among certain crowds today. It's possible to spend years in certain crowds and never get an image of broader fandom for example - we can all end up in spaces like that! I know I have.)

When I started writing fanfiction (which no one will EVER find lmao), generally giving positive comments was normal. Constructive criticism was actually pretty rare and there were already fanfiction aggregate sites that generally disapproved of it in their Rules of Conduct. People were encouraging and polite. And this was around 20 years ago on Livejournal and private indie fanfiction websites.

I would actually say there was never exactly an evolution from 'one to the other' because like thousands of people in fandom already believed this and argued in defense of supporting fanfiction and transformative works via accepting that people are labouring for free and that not everyone wants to become a 'better writer' etc. - the meta was there on Livejournal in the 00s. There were communities where sporking was seen as hip/fun, and communities where it was literally banned or at the very least, super frowned upon.

There were meta fandom communities where sporking was the subject of discussion and you know eventually in a lot of those meta communities, that's where a lot of folks decided actually that calling out the fanfiction of 16 yos as 'cringe' or 'badly done' maybe said more about us as human beings and what we wanted fandom to be, than it did about the actual fanfic itself. By the time AO3 came around, people built it with this in mind.

To this day on AO3 it's mostly considered appropriate to say you want concrit in your author's notes, and to otherwise assume as a reader it's never welcome if it's unsolicited. That started during the LJ era. And it was talked about at great length. There's obviously going to be people who disagree! But for the most part I'm a big believer in compassion and 'not everyone is here for the same reason' and 'they literally gave this to us for free and it's meant to be fun' (like yourself! What we do/think/argue 10 years ago on LJ is sometimes different to what we do 10 years later lol, I used to be against trigger warnings pre-AO3! Times change a lot :D )

So yeah, this was definitely something that was around before you and I came to fandom, and it was something that continued to grow as an attitude during, until finally it kind of won out on AO3. But yeah fandom as we know it was born in people literally not being canon compliant to make some gay dreams come true (Spirk shippers bless them all), at a time when there was no representation.

Even in the earliest days of fandom where comments could only happen via email, one of the earliest phrases authors used were things like 'flames will be used to roast marshmallows.' For those reading who don't know, flames are hate comments, critical 'this fic is bad because' comments etc. Except you emailed them directly to the author, because there was no place for comments on a fic.

And this started because authors in part got death threats for writing gay stuff.

So you know, from the very beginning, authors in fanfic have by and large had a very low tolerance for criticism / hate over something they're doing for free and making no profit out of, when they're changing/altering the canon as they please to create representation (or hotness lmao), that is literally a labour of love in a world of very little representation. From there, things have just grown. The whole 'flames will not be tolerated' existed even before Livejournal did.

Honestly there are still people who love sporking and you could probably find groups and Discords dedicated to that even now (actually you literally can, there's a Dreamwidth group for it), it's kind of wild but it started to get cool again. Just like 90s clothing :D (Which is also wild because I can just take that crap out of my closet and wear it again).

But yeah it also sounds like you may have been in some pretty crappy pockets of fandom! When I was on LJ in the 00s I avoided those places and still got to experience fandom across multiple fandoms (mostly NCIS, Captive Prince, HP, Profiler, The X-Files and some others) and communities.

I was super active in some fandom communities and saw a lot of meta happening, and my view during the early and late 00s was that sporking was largely pretty frowned upon after a very brief (like 3-6 month) era where it was cool for only some folks, and then everyone (including some - but not all - of those folks) was like 'heyyyyyyy hang on a minute.' It was something that the bullies did, and enjoyed, and otherwise folks kind of stayed away from it, especially once they learned people were becoming too scared to write fics, which is the inevitable outcome of mocking/bullying folks and fics that have been made purely out of love for something.

Like, publicly making a spectacle out of what a 13 yo (they were often teens - and it's kind of sad how many 40 yo women were doing the sporking :/ ) wrote out of love, just for fun/clout was not considered cool by everyone even back then, because like, a lot of us saw that as killing new generations of fandom (some folks who sporked considered it a win if a fic or account got deleted, this is not based behaviour), not actually creating good writing, internalised misogyny (Mary Sue hatred and self insert hatred), etc. It's hard to explain because I do really think we were in different corners of fandom at the time, but I don't know anyone personally from my time on Livejournal who actually liked sporking as an idea or enjoyed it or enjoyed listening to it or reading articles mocking fic.

I knew about it from very lively 'is this okay' 'actually no it's not even if it's just for fun this is trying to hurt people and saying 'it's just the fic' is not going to be the bandaid a teenager needs to understand why older folks (generally) in fandom are mocking them for being new at a skill' discussions on LJ in meta fandom communities. So this is how much I could be in fandom and not be a part of it and also have like a wildly different experience to your LJ experience!

I think if I'd been a teenager during that era it would have seemed a lot more appealing (in the same way that many teens are antis now before they grow out of it), and fuck it if I was a more bitter person who was just around people who liked to make fun of what other people created, perhaps I would have enjoyed it too, I can see a lot of reasons why a person would fall into that in LJ -> but I was an adult on LJ trying not to be mean to people or what they were creating, so yeah I was maybe just in very different spaces! (Don't get me wrong, I have my giant fucking character flaws, but I was very scared of people hating me so like I didn't want to do things that would make that happen, lol, and also I was scared to put up fic myself during the era of active sporking. I know for myself that sporkers didn't just scare away writers of 'badfic' - they...intimidated a LOT of people).

Before AO3 I was on FF.net, posting fics on LJ, posting on Schnoogle, gossamer, and a couple of other archives. So I don't think my experience was that 'narrow,' I just think I wasn't around like... anime at that time or other places where it might have been happening. I also avoided like...Draco/Malfoy where CC drama was happening and I know sporking was popular in that specific arena / pairing for a while as well (er, as well as anything to do with Mary Sues).

So yeah! That's about where that is. Generally gatekeeping fandom is just seen as not a great thing to do to people, and that creates other kind of beliefs that are generally upheld as being more inviting/nurturing. After all, if someone truly wants to get better at writing, they can ask, or do courses, but as we all know, everyone has to write some bad stuff to get good at it, but not everyone wants to be good. Folks are in fandom for different reasons. I'm rambling now so I'm going to finish my lunch! :D

#asks and answers #pia on fandom #pia on writing #god i do not miss sporking #but it's still happening tbh in some sections of the internet #and it always will!!! #there will always be fics that piss us off or that are just written painfully #generally speaking it's just encouraged to share that with afriend privately #instead of creating a website and recording an interview or discussion or slam #or writing an article for fandom to see #and using BNF energy to chase fic writers out of fandom #it's wild that it was actually around for as long as it was #on LJ #i feel like that was the mean-spirited click-bait era before click-bait then came around #anyway it's grown in popularity again because of Tiktok! #such is life :D

[musashi]

@mintpopz no! not all fic writers want to "improve." the assumption that we do is WHY this kind of behaviour is so unacceptable.

for the most part, the fic i post is for ME. it is self-indulgent, imperfect, messy schlock that i write for myself and CHOOSE to share with the world. i write it for fun, i write it for free, and then i choose to generously post it so that others, if they are so inclined, can enjoy it as well. i am not being paid to write fic, to hone my craft as a writer, to offer a quality product to someone. i am a hobbyist, writing because it brings me pleasure, and because i enjoy creating for the sake of creating.

WHERE did this assumption come from that every artist wants to improve? i have pretty mild obsessive-compulsive disorder and this idea being DRILLED INTO ME as a teenager made me more or less give up on art FOREVER. every piece of art i crafted made me feel miserable if i did not TEAR it apart looking for flaws, i dug myself so deep into a hole of rigid perfectionism that it killed my creative spirit entirely.

does that sound like improvement? NO! i literally had to stop creating to avoid melting down over what i was making. and it didn't even matter! i wasn't planning to pursue a career in art. i was just a kid drawing pictures, and everyone enforced that idea upon me.

i do not want concrit on the stories i write for fun. i improve my writing consistently, and writing passionately, and seeking out advice when i WANT to, and i certainly do not improve from randos in my comments getting mad about the way i use tense changes.

(tense changes, by the way, can be easily utilized for stylistic purposes, or to play with perspective/time in writing. learn the rules, break them. for god's sake.)

the AUTHOR KNOWS BEST about what they need to improve. if an author asks for concrit, help catching typos, grammar, etc--well, they are probably going to ask their beta first, but if they want additional help from you they'll put it in the notes. if they do not, and you give it anyway, you are not helping them improve. you are offering them nothing. you are just a stranger with no manners and a wretched complex of entitlement.

hobbyists do not need to strive to "improve" when posting their short stories, that again, THEY WROTE FOR FREE. and the author did NOT overreact by asserting this--i don't know what is WRONG with the current climate of people in fandom consuming fic, but this behaviour is unacceptable and should be rightfully shut down.

personally i don't even interact with the kids who do this on my fic. i block them and move on. not gonna bother to offer them a refund of the money they did not pay.

#good grief. where does this COME FROM

[gerec]

have you've noticed an increase in hate comments on ao3 fics? (not the A/I bot stuff, I know ao3 sorted that out, i'm talking actual people leaving hate comments, and sometimes it's not even guest accounts). i've noticed an increase in the last few months in the x men fandom and others. more and more people commenting bad faith, outright rude comments. i mentioned it to winter_hiems and she said she'd noticed it too - worked an age on her latest and the first comment she got was a hate message. kind of wondering if it's starting to be a widespread thing because our fandoms only partially overlap

Hi Anon,

I haven't been posting very much lately so I haven't noticed an uptick in negative comments - in my experience, it sort of comes and goes over time i.e. you get a bunch all in a short period and then it all disappears again for a long time. My guess is that with the increased interest in X-Men from X-Men 97 we're getting a big influx of new or returning fans, and a small portion of them haven't read the memo on fandom etiquette. It doesn't explain what's happening with other fandoms though so I really couldn't guess :(

Personally, I don't have the energy or inclination to deal with bullshit anymore so I just delete anything that pisses me off and permanently block 'em on ao3. Seriously it never ceases to amaze me, the amount of entitlement and sheer dickishness that exists out there over something we do for love, in our free time.

So here we are again, for those of you who are genuinely new and don't know what's acceptable, and aren't just assholes:

Unless the author says 'I welcome concrit', keep your concrit to yourself. Nobody asked you and nobody wants to know how you would write this thing. Just go write it yourself if you think you can do better.

If you have nothing nice to say, back out of the fic. It costs you nothing to shut the hell up.

Authors do NOT prefer getting shitty comments to getting no comments at all. Authors are sharing their love and joy with the world and genuinely want to hear how its making their readers happy - full stop. They did not do hours of unnecessary research, agonize over plot points, edit the damn thing 20x and stay up nights coming up with ideas just so you could tell them how their fic is wrong/bad/stupid/upsets you/is what's wrong with society today etc. The problem is you. It's always you. Shut up.

Rant over!

#gerec rambles #i think there's some lingering trauma here lol #i have had my share of shitty commenters let me tell you

[incorrect-house-of-nine]

I wanna say: Every time a creative puts their work out their, whether it be fanfic, or art or anything really, they are being extremely vulnerable and very brave. Everybody is on their own creative journey honing their craft, and we as the audience have no way of knowing where they are on this journey. People pour their heart and soul into their creations, they snatch free moments from their lives to create, so its incredibly disheartening when folks are nasty in the comments. If you are participating in fandom, and consuming this content, choose to be kind, and supportive towards the people that are putting it -- and their personal time and effort -- out there for free. I'm not saying don't review or ask questions, but do it from a place of encouragement, not nastiness. Wrap it up like a worming pill in a bit of cheese. Concrit = when asked for. If you don't enjoy someone's stuff, there's a back button. It costs nothing to leave well alone. DL:DR If you are shitting on fanfiction as a medium, and its creators, then writing fanfiction yourself, maybe examine why you're doing that? Is it because you want to take writing seriously, yet you're insecure and afraid to admit it to yourself? Its ok to to want to write fiction, but its not ok to think you're better than/ above anyone else out there. We're all at different levels, and everybody is improving and learning. Maybe you could learn a thing or two, and improve on things too. For the love of god, if you're downloading people fics and rewriting them, (even for your own amusement) then don't admit it publicly! Maybe examine why you think you have the right to download other people's stuff and publicly admit you rewrite it. Writers and fics are not named because "that would be rude" but I posit that doing it in the first place is rude, and disrespectful.

#the locked tomb #the locked tomb fanfiction #fandom posting

[olderthannetfic]

When m/m writers say "women DNI / don't read" on a platform like here or AO3 that's majority female, what's the thinking behind this? Are they insecure in their masculinity and trying to preemptively block fujo cooties from getting on their fiction? Are they trying to meet people for RP or dating through engagement with their fics? That I can maybe understand. But if it's the former, there's a culture mismatch. "Women DNI" writers mostly aren't writing stuff that's popular on Space Battles, Sufficient Velocity, Royal Road or even ff.net, which gets more of the "malebrained" (sorry) game nerd stuff with sexless shonen-like characters levelling up or solving problems with "hard magic." Those spaces also have a concrit culture where you can be a little mean and mocking, and the "women DNIs" only want praise and clout. It always makes me think of Married with Children and Al Bundy's NO MA'AM (National Organization of Men Against Amazonian Masterhood) club.

Anyway, it's extra odd when I see this kind of clout goblinry in a market context where most of the sales are to women. I've seen gay dudes (cis and trans) lightly threaten that a big conversation about what gets popular in paying m/m space was coming soon (spoiler: it never came). And it's always someone who doesn't have the kind of career they want despite doing lots of marketing. I think it's OK to vent, but the gay men who are doing numbers in m/m space don't threaten women's careers or disparage their own readership.

--

Are they insecure in their masculinity and trying to preemptively block fujo cooties from getting on their fiction?

Yes.

No, really. That's it.

Ask any trans man who's been on T for a few years and has supportive friends and family what he thinks about this dumb behavior vs. a scared trans boy who just figured it out in his own head and whose entire experience of living openly as a man is being rude to strangers on twitter.

The pro version is just professional jealousy.

If Jordan L. Hawk can come out and stay at the top of the heap (despite, sorry not sorry, a bit of a career slump lately due to Life), so can other trans dudes, and there are plenty of cis dudes who write in a BLy style and sell just fine to BL/slash fandom type readers.

Dudes who are secure don't need to pull this shit, and good marketers know not to insult their paying customers in public because it's bad for business.

TBH, when I find out a m/m author is a guy, I'll usually try one of his books. I don't think fujoshi culture is ~appropriation~, but i guess I do think it's nice to give a guy a shot. I have pretty universally been underwhelmed (in the Sturgeon's Law way, not the men can't write way). But I doubt I'm alone in this behavior. A dude who's not a whiny little bitch about having a chick audience can use this to his marketing advantage. Instead, a lot of losers want to shoot themselves in the foot.

[luulapants]

Seeing some "constructive criticism on fics is okay, but people don't know how to give constructive criticism!" on that poll about whether concrit is ok in ao3 comments and like. Ok but the bigger part of this is that everyone who wants to give concrit is absolutely sure that they know how to give it.

I used to share fandom spaces with a die-hard advocate of concrit being not just okay but essential to fandom culture, and he would argue with anyone, any day, with any provocation about it. He was also one of the most self-important hyper-intellectual elitists I ever met. This is not me being anti-intellectual, is me observing that he thought being aggressively intellectual in all settings, even those where people were trying to relax and have fun, made him better than others. He often bragged about his academic and literary credentials and was convinced that he knew how to give skilled, meaningful concrit that would make people better writers.

So when I was in the middle of writing a WIP, he messages me one day, asking if he can give me concrit on it. Okay, sure, private setting and he asked permission. He seems to be doing things right - better than is his norm, so what the hell? I tell him sure.

He then proceeds, in pseudo-academic high vocabulary, couching every statement in cautious manners, to whine that I didn't include his favorite character enough in my last chapter. The fic was not about this character.

And this is why adding caveats like, "Oh, you have to give concrit correctly," doesn't work. The actual douchebags advocating for open concrit are never going to question whether or not they know how to do it right.

#fandom discourse #ao3 #fandom #fandom culture