#the narrative didn't doom me it just ditched me

[dontbotherwiththepronunciation]

This escalated a lot, (which was a good distraction from everything so I'm taking that as a good thing), so now I have to give:

Warnings: Discussions and mentions of all the horrible things we warn for in Theon's Plotline, particularly the ones about depersonhood, sexual violence, casual violence, classism, and so on and so on + a few suicide jokes and links to artistic depictions of the aftermath of rape.

I moved a few weeks ago and haven't been able to unpack because I got injured during the moving and my other arm is also fucked up because of something else that happened this year and today I finally got to clean around and actually do stuff and arrange my room and I started with my book shelf, which obviously means I didn't actually do much because I just started rereading whatever book I hadn't seen in a while got to my hands. And after realising that I certainly have a type for narratives and characters I started thinking about Hannah from Until Dawn and how amazing it was to have a dead female character with little to no characterisation that subverted the "haunt the narrative" thing we see in many of the asoiaf girls from the dead ladies club and yeah I am thinking about Kyra again and that is not a good mentality.

Elia and Lyanna are given a personality and a face through those who loved them, they feel real because the pain of those who mourn them feels real. Even Joanna Lannister gets some of that through what little we find out of her.

Kyra is a dead lady but she’s not a member of the Dead Ladies Club™. She doesn’t get that privilege. The only person who thinks of her is Theon and it is not done lovingly.

Kyra has a personality we are not privy too. She is a satellite character that is mentioned exclusively in relation to Theon, even in the exception of Bran's POV. Her existence is conditioned to Theon.

Jeyne Poole, although often called one, isn't a satellite character. From the very beginning of the story she is already a presence in multiple POV character's lives, even if her role in the story and her characterisation is weak; She is Sansa's friend, Arya's bully, even Catelyn mentions her and in relation to Robb, but we don't ever see her interacting with her father and none of those characters seems very concerned of her well-being. I don't even know if Ned was planning on sending her with Arya & Sansa or if she was supposed to stay with her father. She later ascends a bit by becoming a secondary but fundamental character in Theon's POV and the Northern plot.

Kyra however is a blank page with a name. This isn't meant as something derogatory. I still have flashbacks of my 2016 experience in this fandom and the way the only kyra stan I ever met would wage a war on jeyne p fans. This isn't my intention.

With exception of Theon there are four other characters that are mentioned to have interacted with her.

Bessa, another serving wench who is implied to have participated on a threesome with her and Theon some time before Bran V, AGOT (Oooh she and Theon were bi4bi!)

Wex Pyke, is mentioned to have slept at the foot of Theon's bed, a bed on which Kyra slept as well. (Oooh Dog imagery and the implied possible witnessing of rape!)

Ramsay Snow...not going to write that. We all know what happened.

Ben Bones, "[...] Even if we do escape, Lord Ramsay will hunt us down, him and Ben Bones and the girls." generalised statement by Theon during his escape with Jeyne. Ben Bones isn't mentioned in relation to Kyra and him being caught during their failed escape.

These aren't even brief versions of her connections, I'm reaching out with many of them.

What else do we know about her?

Ok. She is a serving wench and probably works at the Smoking Log (Source: Bran)

She blushes easily and seems to be embarrassed by public talks of her sex life (Source: Theon)

She seems like an eager lover and seemed to be excited when Theon first took her to Winterfell (Source: Theon)

She had never been at the castle before (Source: Theon)

She acted as the big spoon as they slept together (Source: Theon)

She still refers to Theon as "M'lord" during early ACOK, even if the aforementioned positioning of the two would have us believe there might be more emotional intimacy or closeness between the two (Source: Theon)

Theon raped her (Source: Theon)

Ramsay possibly raped her (Source: Ramsay saying he wanted to bed her)

She was taken prisoner with the other women and children who were at Winterfell after Ramsay sacked the castle. (Source: Theon)

At some point she managed to set herself free, stole the keys to Theon's cell, liberated him, asked him to help her back to Winterfell and failed (Source: Theon)

She threw a rock at Ramsay when he caught her and Theon again, and missed by a foot (Source: Theon)

She was mauled to death by hounds (Source: Theon)

Ramsay named a hound meant to kill other women during future hunts after her (Source: Theon)

He had run before. Years ago, it seemed, when he still had some strength in him, when he had still been defiant. That time it had been Kyra with the keys. She told him she had stolen them, that she knew a postern gate that was never guarded. "Take me back to Winterfell, m'lord," she begged, pale-faced and trembling. "I don't know the way. I can't escape alone. Come with me, please." And so he had. The gaoler was dead drunk in a puddle of wine, with his breeches down around his ankles. The dungeon door was open and the postern gate had been unguarded, just as she had said. They waited for the moon to go behind a cloud, then slipped from the castle and splashed across the Weeping Water, stumbling over stones, half-frozen by the icy stream. On the far side, he had kissed her. "You've saved us," he said. Fool. Fool. It had all been a trap, a game, a jape. Lord Ramsay loved the chase and preferred to hunt two-legged prey. All night they ran through the darkling wood, but as the sun came up the sound of a distant horn came faintly through the trees, and they heard the baying of a pack of hounds. "We should split up," he told Kyra as the dogs drew closer. "They cannot track us both." The girl was crazed with fear, though, and refused to leave his side, even when he swore that he would raise a host of ironborn and come back for her if she should be the one they followed. Within the hour, they were taken. One dog knocked him to the ground, and a second bit Kyra on the leg as she scrambled up a hillside. The rest surrounded them, baying and snarling, snapping at them every time they moved, holding them there until Ramsay Snow rode up with his huntsmen. He was still a bastard then, not yet a Bolton. "There you are," he said, smiling down at them from the saddle. "You wound me, wandering off like this. Have you grown tired of my hospitality so soon?" That was when Kyra seized a stone and threw it at his head. It missed by a good foot, and Ramsay smiled. "You must be punished." Reek remembered the desperate, frightened look in Kyra's eyes. She had never looked so young as she did in that moment, still half a girl, but there was nothing he could do. She brought them down on us, he thought. If we had separated as I wanted, one of us might have gotten away. - Reek I, ADWD

A few things:

1)

2) Kyra's own involvement

I've often seen people take Theon's inner thoughts as a fact. Most of us are convinced that this was all something Ramsay planned all along, that any possible escape was frustrated from the very beginning. I have often even seen fan works in which Kyra knows and tells Theon that Ramsay is planning to hunt them, but when looking closer to the text I find it difficult to believe that everything was a set up. In Theon's memories he mentions how the gaoler was drunk and had his breeches down, which I think implies that maybe it was Kyra who deliberately planned this. That maybe it was her who orchestrated him getting frunk and eventually also had sex with him, perhaps to get closer and take the keys. "She knew a poster gate that was never guarded" also implies that she wasn't held prisoner in the same way Theon was, but maybe was set up to become a slave/servant like Arya at Harrenhall and spent enough time roaming "free" to notice such things. If this was the case and it was her plan instead of Ramsay (who might or might not have maybe set up her environment and conditioned her thoughts of escape) then I think we can maybe add some other traits to her characterisation; we can assume she is observant, resilient and very brave.

3) I wanted to name this section "The Kiss" but then Klimt came to mind so we are naming it Frame 00:09:31 and Frame 00:09:38 of Belladonna of Sadness (tw the links for artistic depictions of the aftermath of rape)

There is often speculation going on whether the lack of something textual in these books can be seen as proof for something else. Canon romantic Jon/Sansa and the idea that Dany considers the Dothraki subhuman are often backed up by this sort of thought process (I admittedly don't believe in any of the aforementioned examples) but I don’t think we’ve ever seen it used in cases like that of Kyra, where I personally find it more fitting. Particularly when it comes to that scene and how Theon doesn't describe her response. I have always seen people take this as something reciprocal and sometimes even beautiful, and Theon internally chastising himself as he thinks of it is often attributed to thinking there was a chance of escape, when it could as well be him chastising himself because he kissed her without really considering how frightening the entire situation must have been for her. Her reasoning for setting him free is that he knows how to go back, not that she loves him or has forgive him. She is said to tremble as she pleads for help, her face is pale, and I can't help but wonder if part of her fear also came from having to beg her rapist to accompany her in her escape.

Based on her throwing a stone at Ramsay, who probably raped her in the past, I like to believe that when he kissed her she screamed, bit Theon and pushed him away.

4) The Girl

There are a few things in that text about Theon & Kyra that in hindsight remind me of Theon & Jeyne.

Some of it is relatively obvious and I have mentioned it in the past, such as the

"You've saved us," he said. - Reek I, ADWD

"You saved me," Jeyne had whispered, - Theon I, TWOW

and

"We should split up," he told Kyra as the dogs drew closer. "They cannot track us both." The girl was crazed with fear, though, and refused to leave his side, [...] If we had separated as I wanted, one of us might have gotten away. - Reek I, ADWD

"Stay close to me," Jeyne said. "Don't leave me." "I will be right beside you," Theon promised - Theon I, ADWD

but also

"Take me back to Winterfell, m'lord," she begged, pale-faced and trembling. "I don't know the way. I can't escape alone. Come with me, please." - Reek I, ADWD

He put a finger to her lips. "We can talk about that later. You need to be quiet now. Come with us. With me. We will take you away from here. Away from him." - Theon I, ADWD

and

Reek remembered the desperate, frightened look in Kyra's eyes. She had never looked so young as she did in that moment, still half a girl, but there was nothing he could do. - Reek I, ADWD

The eyes of the bride were brown. Big and brown and full of fear. It was not right that she should look to him for rescue.  - The Prince of Winterfell, ADWD

Overall my perception of things tells me that there was a drastic change in Theon's character after her death. It is him who this time has comed up with a plan and has to beg/repeatedly ask for someone else to accompany him. Something I find peculiar is how he describes fear being visible through their eyes and the sight of it makes him feel guilt over his lack of agency.

When comparing his behaviour during the failed escape and the flight we see that he no longer plans on leaving Jeyne in order to escape by himself (and we see him prove that during TWOW when he comments on how her ribs broke so HE CARRIED HER jdsfskdjfnsdkjf aren't you supposed to be emaciated???). And while I find that a very noble development, as I consider salvation to be symbiotic, it leads me to wonder:

5) The AU

So many fanworks often depict Theon holding her hand and going ahead as they run, it's a beautiful image but it doesn't follow into what the canon is telling us.

Kyra being the active one in this event, her having to be the one who not only approaches Theon with thoughts of escape but also begs for his help, implying he might have been hesitant at first, she being the one who refuses to leave him although he is set off on their(/his?) chances of a successful escape being higher if they part ways, all this points to him probably not wanting to hold her hand through it, much less lead her through his same path.

And then I think of Theon's promise

The girl was crazed with fear, though, and refused to leave his side, even when he swore that he would raise a host of ironborn and come back for her if she should be the one they followed. - Reek I, ADWD

Would he? Would he have returned with a host if ironborn to get her? I don't think he would have. I don't think he was consciously lying to her or that he would just forget of her and leave with no remorse and never think of her again. I think it would have become inconvenient to return and he would have told himself it is impossible and she would haunt him nonetheless, but what consolation is that for her?

If he had miraculously managed to get to his sister or to Dagmer Cleftjaw, had miraculously managed to rapidly heal and regain his strength, would he have been able to get himself a host of loyal ironborn that would follow him far far far into the land, away from the realms of he who dwells beneath the waves, just to save some random girl he used to bed? Ad given how emotionally constipated is, how introverted, how he rarely displays vulnerability, what could he have said in order to change their mind?

Even her physical appearance, something that Theon, a somewhat libidinous young man, might have remarked on, is omitted. She doesn't have thick auburn hair, which could have made some readers use her as "proof" for him being "psychosexually" (another word most people in here don't know how to define but will use regardless) attracted to Robb/Sansa/Cat. The eyes of the girl aren't "big and brown" for me and a few other delusional people to claim as "foreshadowing" for a future romance. There aren't any mentions of her having a sharp nose that could have made us think of her as a semblance of his own family back at the Islands. There is nothing. She is nothing.

Sometimes we readers attempt to give closure to Kyra through fan work; I have seen art depicting her as a ghost "forgiving" Theon, there are fics in which Theon takes care of the hound that was named after her or (I am guilty of this too) him taking care of Jeyne is somehow seen by the narrative as atonement for his past mistreatment of Kyra. None of these works are inherently bad or disrespectful and I can appreciate what they do and I enjoy many of them (@/ghostlyturncloaks has a very beautiful fic involving Theon and Kyra, the hound), but none of them will give Kyra, the actual Kyra who used to breath and was then killed by hounds, closure because that is simply impossible to do given how she is not a real character compared to those who surround her. When people in this fandom talk about "stanning the girls who suffer/are victims" it is often done either in a holier-than-thou light or in a derogative manner but it never refers to Kyra because Kyra isn't allowed to be a person in the text.

Taking care of Jeyne or the hound won't make things right for her and there are no reasons for her to forgive Theon when Theon refuses to even think of the act with indisputable textual remorse. We can read between the lines and realise that Theon feels guilt, the fact she "and her keys" haunt him is already proof of that, but does he feel guilt for her terrible death, for him raping her, for how little he valued her as a person or for all of these together?

And I don't think that Theon is inherently a bad person for not valuing her and not being interested in her as a person, I think such situations are cruelly casual and rarely intentional. I think most people across their life will come to realise that they should have valued someone more. Our feelings aren't reciprocal and that isn't necessarily a sign of vileness. And, to my shame, I admit that part of my obsession with my unlucky trio of Jeyne, Falia and Kyra is somewhat motivated by my own feelings of depersonalisation and overall worthlessness and irrelevance.

It is difficult to explain, at most I can maybe compare it to the way Dany has managed to appeal to so many woc through her journey. Cersei, Dany, Arya and Sansa are all well written, interesting and profound characters that will go down in history both in and out of universe as such. Kyra won’t, neither will Falia, the Jeynes might have but they weren’t enough and were quickly replaced without many mourning that change in the way we mourn Daenerys' popularised end game as a mad queen or Arya's popularised endgame as a badass assassin without any nuisance. And I can understand why! This anger is purely mine!

With Kyra there is a world to explore, but only as long as Theon is no longer there. We can't give her a respectful characterisation if our only source and voice is that of Theon, if we were to that it would probably be highly ooc. But then again we can't even interact with her without Theon being in the picture. What happened to Bessa? Was she killed during the Winterfell sack? Were they friends? I imagine they were close if the two worked together and also had a threesome. Did she feel fear and maybe a pang of jealousy when she saw her being summoned to the castle to never come back to their inn? Did Kyra have a family? Maybe they were working the fields in the late summer/early autumn and were hoping to see her in winter again. I will be arrogant by referring to the images meme I recently made for her but yeah, Nathaniel Russel's fake fliers you will go down in my memory:

Even something as benign and well meaning as giving her a face, be it by a film/show/comic-adaptation or fan art, is somewhat counterproductive to what I think might have been aimed by the writer through her being a faceless pain. A face can make someone become sympathetic or interesting, meanwhile Kyra is pain unbridled and without any mentioned outer or inner beauty to get us to be invested in her. I might have my headcanons for her, with and without Theon, but I am not meant to have them.

The most common Tumblr tag for the sharing of Kyra related posts is "#kyra and her keys" and although this will be perceived by may as a holier than thou attitude I think it speaks on itself that we readers, the few readers who care enough about Kyra to dedicate a post to her, have decided to refer to her with a concept Theon chose for her. We define her through Theon without any real consideration for her own feelings. "#kyra asoiaf" has about three posts last I checked.

#my thesis was mildly related to all this and now that I know it will never see the light of the day + everything + the kyra image meme #I've been having feelings about her and yeah those aren't nice. #Its weird because officially cerse¡ and d@ny are my favourite female characters but I don't think about them nearly as much as I think abou #kyra of winter town #je¥ne p and w and f@lia #speaking #asoiaf #the narrative didn't doom me it just ditched me

[nanatsuyu]

what makes you like kandrew so much?? what drawns you to them??

(not trying to sound rude or condescending or anything im just curious lol)

I really adore characters that bite and snarl at each other for the purpose of enrichment in their respective enclosures.

On a more serious note lol—other than the fact that I have A Type when it comes to pairings (davekat, edxizzy, amberprice, etc), I enjoy characters that have somewhat of an unhealthy codependency on one another. Which is the extremely general way of putting it. I like characters that are kind of doomed to the narrative to never really be sated by what the world has to offer, but their person makes up for that (not that they always recognize it as such or that it's entirely positive or sometimes even completely mutual). And I don't mean doomed in a "never amount to anything" way, but in that bittersweet tone where both of these characters, wherever they fall into each other on the timeline, are at a place where their lows sync up, and that harmonizing rattles something to the perceived tune of "we're the best we're ever going to get". Again, that's all really general for the vibes of why I was drawn to them. There's a bit more nuance for them (and the other pairings ofc).

I like that they have a deal that encompasses both of them trying to push the other into being a better version of themselves but they're both too stubborn/scared to move first because realised potential means you have to recognise it too. Kevin can't expect Andrew to try his best when he himself is not, and Andrew can't expect Kevin to show him his worth* if he doesn't bother to try in the first place. (Though I know their deal was labelled more as moriyama protection for Kevin, I think that kind of encompassed the idea that Andrew would be a crutch till Kevin could stand on his own if that makes sense)

Not to quote the ec but it's one of like 3 parts I would willingly print and eat:

Andrew is the kind of character I adore because he says this and he really genuinely means it. Keeping what little he has left of himself is a last ditch self preservation tactic because he can't get hurt if he has no hopes/expectations/aspirations. No one can let him down if he doesn't let them. But he's so wonderfully flawed in his own ruleset because he keeps doing just that in the hopes that maybe someone will be different this time . Like maybe this time someone will be right when they say he's worth it** like maybe Kevin is right and he can make Andrew see what he's been refusing himself.

I also love that their deal extends far past the deal itself. In the most basic of terms, it was: 'you go, I'll go.' Andrew didn't have to trust Kevin beyond that. But he gave Kevin his meds and trusted him not to abuse that. Kevin had even already promised to help him figure out a way to wean off them before if they could earlier (and I genuinely think his fear of Andrew getting off his meds early was both a kneejerk 'the game/my safety' reaction because Kevin has a lot riding on this semester too, but also because he knows he made his own promise to Andrew and he thought Andrew coming off his meds early might have been an obstacle even Kevin's stubbornness couldn't hurdle when it came to helping Andrew on his feet after). Likewise I have to imagine that very few people put their trust in Kevin with much of anything outside of Exy given his temperament and wallflower disinterest in team building extra curriculars. So for Andrew to willingly give Kevin his meds to hold onto that he's gotten violent over before probably created a very morbid sense of.. pride, I guess? Like I trust you to hold onto the thing that ruins me is so... clenches fist

There's also this rough handed care that comes with all of that. They're unforgivably honest with each other at the best of times and unnecessarily biting at wounds just to get a genuine reaction at the worst. But then they also have these quiet side/off screen moments that are unyielding in tenderness? Andrew inspecting Kevin's hand for injuries. Kevin covering for Andrew when he's sick on court. Andrew telling Kevin to trust him during a panic attack and that he'll take care of it. Kevin turning his entire attention away from the Raven's to pull Andrew up to his feet. Them smiling at each other first genuinely?? Being idiots on the court with playful mocking shoves that don't get heated?? Like you give me these two characters who make it seem as if their hearts will genuinely stop beating if they stop nipping at each other, and then show me that they're actually wrapped up in one another so tightly that they're rarely seen apart? And are burdened (affectionate) with the task of keeping the other from doing the very thing that drowns themselves?? Okay

Also a looooot of this is from my perspective on Andrew's perspective on Kevin since we're given a lot more to work with, but I genuinely think Andrew was the first to push back at Kevin and make him prove things to Andrew and himself. Kevin had maybe a couple people at most before he fled to the foxes. Like he had nothing other than his name and reputation, good and bad, when he showed up at wymack's door. I can't help but imagine some part of Andrew saw this as amusing but also rather tiresome when it came to seeing Kevin constantly shut away in hiding. He was so loud before, where is all that roar now? When Kevin left Jean, he really left his only friend behind (sorry Thea fans I know she's there I know). So here you have Andrew, offering a deal that becomes this codependency because being out of the nest alone most certainly took its toll for a while, and it sounds too good to be true but most things are. So Kevin snatches it up and then there's the trust in the meds and the constant presence (in the sense of comforting consistency in spite of any disagreements (but abandonment issues kandrew is a whole other post now innit)) and the care and it all looks a lot like what someone might call a friend. And I mean they could both say they're not friends till their dying day but they're the only ones they're still trying to fool.

I just like that they gnaw on the scraps that they snag off one another, these leftover cuts from failed attempts at love and kindness, and act as if they didn't hand the pieces to each other themselves in the bed they share.

—

*Andrew is worth more than his ability to play Exy obviously, but I'm working from the angle that these boys have a very limited vocabulary in how to express that given their upbringings lol ie: my absolute Favourite part of the ec:

Like again I have my hangups with some of the ec but this provides soooo much more context to their beef pre-canon and the history behind Andrew's failed recruitment. Not to mention Aaron internally calls out Andrew for blatantly lying to Kevin when he tells him he doesn't care. (I think Andrew probably holds a certain disdain for Kevin struggling to verbalize how he measures worth and how that might differentiate off the court, because that line between wanting to be told you're worth putting in the effort for versus being told it's because of your latent potential is most likely rather precarious. Shipping goggles on: I imagine wanting to get someone's attention whose love language was built up around Exy is a tad difficult even if Andrew does in fact hear what Kevin's trying to say. I also don't think Kevin's malicious in his inability to truly express that Andrew really could have everything and it's infuriating to watch Andrew self destruct.)

**And for me, this, coupled with the above conversation with Renee, really puts into perspective how agitated Andrew is with Kevin for squandering his potential. He thinks Kevin has zero self preservation skills when it comes to maybe not putting all his balls in the exy basket, but that's also why he's so drawn to him because he has this insatiable drive to live for this one thing? And yet he's not even giving it his all like he's asking of Andrew despite that? It'd be easy to dismiss Kevin's overzealous love of the game as gross infatuation that's bled into Andrew's life, but if he smothers Kevin's drive and doesn't encourage him to be exactly as he sees Kevin, this person who really can achieve these things, what is there for him? He wants Kevin to thrive, but Andrew also wants Kevin to be right and that he can thrive too.

#im sorry anon do you regret your question now lol #im kind of bad with articulating my points sometimes because theres A LOT #like i think how they view themselves and each other is blurred with how others do #and what they tell themselves versus what they themselves can articulate makes it really messy #and thats what i gobvle up about them #theyre messy and mean and have a vice grip in each others collar and constantly demand more #and at the same time theres a certain kind of devotion that comes with promising to be the reason someone wont break thats so #agonizingly tender #kiss with a fist‚ love from the back of a broken hand etc #thanks for coming to my ted talk hope literally any of this made sense #aftg #aftg meta #kandrew #nana asks #otp: did you have fun #i should be sleeping but im thinking about ✨them✨

[polysyndetonaddictsupportgroup]

oh my god I binge read sea glass garden last night and the third and fourth chapter DESTROYED ME.

I’m omw to reread the entire fic because it was too good and I KNOW that it’s going to be one of the must-reads of this fandom. I’m literally in love with all your characters (your Tsumiki is so freaking interesting she was READY to get at it with Maki✊🏻) especially your description of Megumi’s situation is killing me, my heart is in pieces. No matter how many stories there are depicting the years before his high school time, there will always be too few idc.

I’m pretty sure it’s canonically stated that Megumi went on missions before being enrolled as a student and that he witnessed the death of at least one comrade, all because he had been bought to be a jujutsu sorcerer. Imagine never having the delusion of a future because you signed your life away to ensure your sister would live happily. Your take on the fact that, maybe, at some point of his life, Megumi didn’t wish to be a jujutsu sorcerer anymore destroys me. I never really thought of it, and he probably never imagined a life for himself where he wouldn’t die as a jujutsu sorcerer either. He was downright begging to be left to die in peace because he couldn’t bear it any longer when he shouldn’t have even gone on missions yet at all😭 And even though his current injuries weren’t caused by a mission, I don’t think he’d be so stupid to try to tame the snake unsupervised a few days after Geto’s death. Like c’mon. It’s all the higher ups fault, because it always is. Damn them. I hope they choke on their rotting teeth😤

ANYWAY I GOT LOST ON THE WAY TO ASK YOU A QUESTION JANSJAJANJAHA I ramble way too much

I noticed the updates have been pretty frequent, so do you have an update schedule with pre-written chapters? No because if you don’t I applaude you for being able to write masterpieces in a few days😩

P.S. I was curious about the meaning of the title and I read your other post about it and it’s so beautiful😭 obviously it’s sad but it also speaks of the determination of humans’ will to survive yk? You are genius😫

No update schedule, unfortunately! I don’t have the self control to not post chapters when I have them. I go on hyperfixation-fueled writing binges and writers block crashes of unending despair. It’s a Whole Thing. Updates tend to come in waves with me. It’ll probably be pretty erratic updates until the story ends. Thank you for reading and for your kind words!

You are speaking my ENTIRE LANGUAGE with Megumi. He is, hands down, the most interesting character in the show to me. His backstory and how it intertwines with his philosophy and approach to morality make him just so unendingly interesting to me.

Like, the Fushiguro siblings and specifically Megumi really were doomed by the narrative from the start. Megumi never really lived in a world where he had a future. Like, the past arc takes place during spring of 2006, and his dad had ditched long enough at that point that he straight up forgot megumi's name. Tsumiki's mom had been gone long enough that Megumi thought she and his dad ran off together, so she probably wasn't around after Toji stopped coming. Megumi was born late December of 2002, so he would have been three then. Tsumiki was, at most, five. And because Gojo didn't go to meet them until after Geto's massacre in late summer of 2007, it was just the two of them for at least a year.

Like, the sheer horror of being two very small children taking care of each other, knowing that the money's running out and that your parents probably aren't coming back. They were living in abject poverty, and Megumi was most likely seeing curses during at least part of this (considering he was right at the age for it and he wasn't all that surprised with Gojo rolling up to tell him his dad was from a magic clan) with no idea what they were, because even if Toji explained anything (which i doubt) the chances of Megumi remembering the explanation aren't great. He's seeing horrifying things every day and doesn't have any support past his sister, who can't see the same.

Tsumiki and Megumi faced parentification at a ludicrously young age. We know that Tsumiki most likely took a pretty strong caretaking/maternal role for megumi from an early age, but the fact that baby Megumi's only question when Gojo found him and made his offer was about Tsumiki's happiness suggests that the caretaking wasn't one sided. Making decisions about your future based on the needs of your family is a very adult concern, and it was Megumi's only concern. While Tsumiki was canonically far more open with her affection and care (grumpy baby Megumi refusing to hold hands, you have my whole heart), Megumi definitely loved her deeply already and was modeling his actions with her interests in mind. They must have both been shouldering the load of raising and protecting the other for as long as they can remember. Tsumiki and Megumi were likely barely surviving day to day. They were already shouldering the stresses of grown ups and likely didn't have any of those childish, starry-eyed dreams about what it would be like when they grew up.

Even when Gojo enters the scene, the parentification didn't end. While he does take on a paternal/caretaking role, his intro into their lives very much heralded a time where Megumi became the family's compulsory breadwinner. I won't break down my thoughts on how Gojo probably wasn't the one who came up with the deal of Megumi being collateral for their survival since I already did it in another post, but however it came about, it doesn't change the fact that Megumi knows that he's the one his family's survival hinges on from a stupidly young age.

We know that Megumi was training/working as a jujutsu sorcerer pre-canon. Gojo straight up tells him at age 4 that he's going to need him to work hard, he references the fact that he's been training megumi for a while in season 1, Megumi admits to nobara that he's lost a comrade on a mission before Yuuji (though Yuuji was the first that was his age), and Megumi knows a lot of the people in this world. By the time canon starts, he's been training with Kamo since before Kamo entered school, so for 3-4 years minimum, and Mai knows him as well. Kamo straight up says that Megumi's got more talent than the head of the Zenin clan by his first year, and his Grade 2 status at entrance means he's considered a prodigy. There's also a lot of little scenes that suggest that Megumi's been doing this a while. When Gojo's talking to Yuuji about the detention center fight, he makes a few comments about how Megumi likely understood the reality of the fight and just how bad their odds were better than the other two, suggesting 1) megumi has the experience already to do that and 2) Gojo has witnessed him in the field enough to get a sense of how he evaluates situations. He's been doing this a while.

But the thing is that he's also passively suicidal the entirety of season 1. And that's probably because he spent his entire life believing he was going to die young.

He probably doesn't think of it as being passively suicidal, but he absolutely is. The sacrifice bunt vs Yuuji's homerun in season 1 is SUCH A GOOD MICROCOSM OF HIS CHARACTER.

Yuuji has the blind confidence of a very young god who was never informed that there were other gods that were older and more powerful and will kick his fucking ass. Like, he will be in Sukuna's throne room after the man ripped his heart out and Literally Killed Him and still be like "I will beat your entire ass." No doubt. No hesitation. I simply love him.

Megumi, meanwhile, walks into fights knowing he will find one that he can't win. Yuuji thinks he can beat anyone, but Megumi defaults to the assumption that he can't win in a way that is really suggestive of a very, very deep underlying mental issue.

I don't know if you're anime-only or if you know what the "trump card" gojo refers to during his training scene with Megumi, so I'll confine it to what's already appeared in the anime. Throughout the anime, there's multiple times where it's alluded to the fact that Megumi has some kind of "trump card" where he can take his enemy down with him. Gojo specifically refers to it as "dying to win." Sukuna even recognized to some degree that he was pulling it during their fight and called it "burning through your own life." Whatever it is, it's a sacrifice play. It's taking someone down with him.

And we see throughout the anime multiple times where he almost pulls it. Sukuna is the biggest example, but he likely almost pulled it twice in the fight against Hanami during the Goodwill Event arc. When Hanami first confronts them, Megumi immediately says "Get Inumaki out of here" to Kamo.

And that's fucking weird. Inumaki's a semi-grade one sorcerer, higher than him. He's his very experienced senpai. He's no slouch in a fight. Kamo is older than all of them, has been training his entire life, and is a first grade sorcerer. Out of all of them, Megumi was the baby kohai who should have been leaning on the older students. Instead, he's trying to get them out of the line of fire. He probably saw an immeasurably powerful special grade and decided to pull the same trump card he almost pulled in the fight against Sukuna as soon as Inumaki and Kamo were safe.

Later, when Hanami has Maki by the throat, after he was already hit by her root attack that would kill him if he used cursed energy, he makes the same hand signals he did during the Sukuna fight while thinking about how he's the one who has to make the sacrifice play. He was absolutely killing himself to win.

And that mentality makes so much sense when you consider that Megumi already made the sacrifice play with him and his sister all those years ago.

He's spent his entire life locked into being a sorcerer. It's the collateral keeping himself and his sister alive. He doesn't have a way out. His future employment is collateral for an already-accrued debt; he just doesn't have the option to quit and do something else the way everyone else does. And the thing about being a sorcerer is that the mortality rate is not awe-inspiring, to the point where the Kyoto students canonically tried not to get close to each other because they knew that a decent number of them would be dying young and it would hurt less.

Megumi's not stupid, and he's been doing this for a long time. He's probably been reconciling with his own likely violent death for a long time by the time canon starts, and it really fucking shows with how he approaches fights until the bridge fight. There's something so tragic and sad about that to me. Like, what age was he when he realized this life would probably kill him? When he realized that he would never have a way out?

When you bring in his own morality structure and philosophical approach to life, that entire mindset becomes so fucking interesting. Because Megumi's plainly fucking furious that people did this to him.

Megumi's middle school bullying days is both hilarious and endlessly fascinating in the context of his history. His entire thing is that he hates bad people and believes that we’re born into a fundamentally unjust world. Specifically, he hates people that look at the vulnerable and lack empathy for them, to the point where he ended up going out of his way to beat up every single bully in his middle school an unilaterally enforce peace. He had an entire dramatic speech about how he was doing this because they had hurt others—the worlds based on social construct, "please don't kill me and I won't kill you." They had broken that to make themselves feel strong, and if they did it again in front of him, he'd kill them. All that jazz. And it's really interesting that he never once looks down on the people getting bullied. There's a huge emphasis on strength as tied to value in JJK--Sukuna and Gojo being some of the biggest examples--but Megumi only looks down on a lack of empathy and compassion, not people who are physically weak.

Once that's contextualized with the fact that the person who was supposed to protect him abandoned him and sold him to some very bad people, it becomes a lot more tragic. He's doomed by the narrative and he's self aware of the fact that he's doomed. He spends his entire middle school years kicking the shit out of people who take advantage of people because they can, and I personally think that's because that's exactly what happened to him when he was a kid. There's always a bigger fish, and some pretty fucking big fish have him in a corner. But he's the biggest fish in the pond of his middle school, and he does not put up with people who hurt others just because they can.

He spends his last years before becoming a full time sorcerer acting as the sort of person that never was there for him as a child, and there's something so tragic about that to me. Megumi just reads as someone who's already accepted he's doomed and is so angry he wasn't saved.

Even his name has tinges of tragedy to me. Like, it's the difference between "blessing" and "blessed."

On his face, Megumi seems like he's blessed. He won the genetic lottery. He was born with one of the most powerful techniques in the franchise, the one that the Zenin clan desperately wants. It's rare enough that no one else alive has inherited it. It's suggested that it's the Zenin equivalent to the Six Eyes, and Gojo's the one who's always saying how he alone is blessed by heaven. Even Kamo, who isn't even Zenin, commented during their fight on how much people wanted someone like Maki or Mai to get it instead. I won't comment on manga events, but as it proceeds, it becomes even more obvious just how valuable his technique is considered to be.

But Megumi doesn't seem to particularly care about his technique.

He said at one point that, in middle school, he didn't really want to be a jujutsu sorcerer because he couldn't imagine who he'd want to save (the fact that his first act in the series is to save Yuuji is another discussion entirely that I am so mentally ill about). Megumi spends the series surrounded by people who are extremely impressed by and focused on his technique, but for Megumi? His technique and its value seems to be the thing that trapped him. No one was ever going to let him live in peace, and he was young enough that he had no real way to protect his own interests.

He never got to be a kid who got to dream about what he'd be when he grew up. Other kids got to say they'd be an astronaut, or an actor, or a veterinarian or whatever, and he has known that he would be lucky to not die in wizard school his entire childhood. He is a blessing for other people, for the Zenin who want his technique, for the higher ups who effectively own him until he repays his debt, but he's not blessed. He's just valuable sea glass with collectors circling. He hates his name, and I think he hates what he is as well. He's an extraordinarily strong willed person who hates people who take advantage, but he's spent his entire life with a boot on his neck. that must piss him off.

I think his relationship with jujutsu sorcerer would have potentially been a lot better if it had been a choice for him, but he's someone who intensely values control over himself who has been controlled by the circumstances of his birth his entire life. There are all these tiny ways in the show that he tries to exert control over his own circumstances because he just doesn't have a lot of control over his life and it's just amazing character design.

He's just so tragic to me. I am so mentally unwell over him.

Tsumiki and the fact that she was fully about to fight Maki for a hot minute was a lot harder to settle on, mostly because we just don't get a lot about her. But I actually kind of like those kinds of characters? I get to play more in those sandboxes and have more freedom with the character because I'm just using what's little known about them as a bouncing off point and making shit up for the rest.

And with Tsumiki we just do not have a huge amount because she's in a magic coma when canon starts. What little we have is coming through Megumi, who is a naturally unreliable narrator when it comes to her. Like, in his mind, her primarily defines her as "a good person," and that makes a lot of sense when you consider that this is his big sister who was, effectively, the only source of stability and care he had growing up and is almost completely lost to him by the start of canon. he's the last person i would expect to be an reliable narrator about her.

Fanon (at least what I've seen) seems to have translated what we've seen to her into "kind natured good girl" which I don't entirely agree with? I just don't think those kind of people exist. Like, the one's who are all sunshine and rainbows and kind thoughts all the time. Everyone has negative emotions; it's just a matter of how they deal with them.

Also what little concrete we have on her doesn't necessarily suggest she fits that kind of eternally-caring good girl motif anyway.

There's the big example, where she says she would much rather think about the ones she loves rather than curse anyone. This very notably isn't an idealistic "everyone has good in them" rationalization, but it's more "I have better things to do with my time." Forgiving bad people is a trait that Megumi attributes to her, but he's an unreliable narrator about her, so it may be accurate or it may not be. There's a difference between forgiving someone and taking a policy of non-interference.

It's also suggested that she doesn't actually look down on the absence of forgiveness--she actually comments pretty favorably on it. She says that Megumi's refusal to forgive people is a part of his kindness. This suggests that, even though she goes after him for fighting, it's not some kind of perfectly kind "forgiveness is the right thing to do" rationalization. She recognizes the nuance in Megumi's actions and his anger. The thing she really gets on him for is the fighting itself, not the anger, and fighting 1) has wider impacts on Megumi (physically, mentally, emotionally, on his record, etc) and 2) it's suggested that she gets on him because of these wider impacts. We never actually see her discuss it at all in terms of the people he beats up, and Megumi thinks, in retrospect, that she was picking him to care about the same way that he picks who he saves. Again, he's unreliable, so this may be true and it may not be, but I find her character so interesting if it is true, especially in light of her quote about not cursing people because she'd rather think of her loved ones.

That takes Tsumiki from the kind of "prototypical good girl" character type into the realm of someone who has picked to only care about certain people and approach the rest of the world with polite indifference. She doesn't share Megumi's anger at the world, but she doesn't exactly approach it with starry-eyed idealism either.

A much better example of starry-eyed idealism within JJK is actually Yuuji (pre-Junpei) or Geto (pre-genocidal breakdown) than Tsumiki--and the narrative immediately deconstructs both cases of starry-eyed idealism, suggesting that it doesn't genuinely tie being a "good person" to those approaches to morality.

Both Yuuji and Geto kind of spout like, baby's first philosophy class styles of idealism. And I don't mean that in a derogatory way towards either of them--they're both highly empathetic teenagers who care a lot about the world and people in it who are trapped in a system that is fundamentally hostile. Yuuji has a stance of "even considering killing would affect my soul" and Geto has a stance of "I exist for the sake of protecting those weaker than me," both of which aren't wholly without merit, but both are overly simplistic and lack nuance. Which makes sense, because they're both a teenager's approach to morality. In a safer environment, they could have grown in nuance and had their world views challenged safely. but the system they're both existing in isn't safe and never has been--so Yuuji ends up having to confront his stance on killing when he has to put literal children trapped in inexplicable torment out of their misery, and Geto goes off his rocker entirely.

In contrast, Tsumiki really isn't as idealistic as either of them, from what little we see of her. She never once gets close to their levels of "I want to save everyone" syndrome--it's straight up that she's picked her people to care about and has better things to do with her time than waste it on hate and anger. Contextualizing it within her background, that reads more like a survival strategy than being a sparkly kind perfect good girl.

She was a very young girl who had to shoulder a huge amount of responsibility at a young age. She was stuck in terrible circumstances, living well below the poverty line, with her only support being a brother that was even younger than her. We don't know anything about her mom or bio dad, or how much she knows about/remembers Toji, but it's interesting that Toji's approach to life is the antithesis of Tsumiki's.

Toji was so caught up in his own bitterness towards how he was treated that a big part of why he took Riko's assassination was so he could prove he was stronger than *checks notes* a sixteen year old miracle baby and his repressed boyfriend. In the end, the fact that he was caught up in his bitterness was his downfall, and he said it himself: he normally would have fucked off the second Gojo showed up after the assassination was done. He directly ignored his instincts to prove a monkey like him could take on the pinnacle of jujutsu sorcery, and that's what killed him.

There's not enough in canon to tell us either way if tsumiki had any impressions of the adults in her life, but I honestly really like the idea of her looking at the a life where the adults are neglecting her because they've been consumed by their own anger and hate and purposefully deciding to not let it consume her as well. To discard that kind of stuff, not because she thinks there's good in everyone or that it's horribly wrong to have negative emotions, but because she has the people she loves and she's building a life with them by sheer force of will. She's fleeing the teeth of a beast, not approaching the world through rose-colored glass.

For another thing, we have legitimately two actions that she's canonically taken in the series. One was nail Megumi in the back of the head with a milk carton during a fight, the other was fling her fucking body off a bridge with a homemade bungee chord. Girl's probably not a nun.

I ended up deciding that the core of Tsumiki's character needed to be that had a, for lack of a better word, selfish way of loving people. Not to say that she acts selfishly (if anything, canon shows she's intensely selfless when it comes to the people she loves), but just that she's decided to conserve her efforts and care to center around the people she loves and not care about the whole world and everything in it. In her mind, Megumi's kindness is in part because he's angry on the behalf of other people, which is a trait she doesn't share. She cares about her brother and just straight up doesn't have the time or resources for everyone else. Megumi is her landmine.

There's not enough in canon to contradict this reading of her, which makes her fun to write. So she's a relatively nice and polite girl until her brother's in danger, in which case she's immediately stealing cars and about to throw hands with a girl holding a polearm. She's so fun.

#jujutsu kaisen #jjk #jjk spoilers #fushiguro tsumiki #fushiguro megumi #sea glass gardens #those that have been following me for a while know that the ask box comes at the risk of 73 different tangents in the answer #that's right folks it's yet another info dump

[gunmetal-ring]

Stream of consciousness for episode 11x4

Dog's okay I just know it

Kind of funny that Daryl had to do the guts dealio when it's like the most empty space he's wandering but boy scouts come prepared I guess

Pleased that they revealed her immediately actually instead of waiting til the credits

Dramatic reveal! I wonder if they made her wear a wig in find me specifically to show that 6 years have passed now, OR if they ditched the wig after the ageism backlash lol

So I was partially right lol he's like wtf wait she's a baddie. They are not pleased to see each other

OK wait. She saw him on the road w a group. Either that was during the attack or she saw him earlier and was like well whatever we can still attack idc which... seems like woman scorned lol. And the old ass shotgun is still working after 6+ years?!

Okay so it seems like he never talked to her about Maggie as being part of his family. Makes me wonder who exactly she knows about. My guess is not Carol lol. Maybe she knows about Michonne? Or maybe he never talked about his family, and her whole "do you belong with your family even though you can't face them" line during the ultimatum is exclusively her projecting. Idk. And honestly given his whole "I'm a loner like always" lie right now maybe that's the case

*Theme Song*

And now he's being taken to their camp... hm. Lol they're just dragging him that's kind of funny not even carrying him. Also that's a thin ass burlap sack. What does he have in his hands to get him out of the rope?

She's really so beautiful. He told her he went back for her. Um you looked everywhere?! We didn't see that!

Daryl... "Sorry you ended up with these people" dude like. Piece it together. Cmon. Follow the narrative that the writers are hitting over our heads with a brick 😒 dude cannot critically analyze zombie TV for shit...

HA "they never stopped looking for me" and he's all "Alright low blow dude. Sorry that the love of my life came and rescued me from my creepy loner came idk what to tell you"

Hmm OK so he did tell her about his family... but like. Who?! I need to know. Either way he's saying they're all dead now so I guess it happened sometime after she left. She looks like she feels bad for him. Maybe she believes it?

Damn that's cold blooded holy shit what the fuck. Guess she is scorned lol. Waterboarding the ex?! It's been YEARS bro time to move on! Guess she didn't believe it. Leah Shaw, okay. Doesn't she know that confessions under torture are unreliable? Can't believe she thought that would work tho. He's made of physical steel (and emotional marshmallow). Cmon.

Whoa goddamn they're so fucking smart ugh I love Daryl. Feel bad for the guy tho. Guess he's getting waterboarded too. The Geneva convention doesn't exist in the apocalypse I guess.

He's never lied... bro your whole relationship was a lie... yikes. Aw the classic pet custody breakup deal. But rly tho I'm dying to find out who he told her about in their family.

Um... ok... so is it just this one guy that speaks in tongues or is this part of the whole Reaper deal? Did Leah force Daryl to go to Mass with her? Were they religious before the world ended? So many questions and I'm genuinely intrigued. Good job writers

Scared of letting go... but he let go for Carol!!!!! I see you writers

Lol she straight up admitted she wasn't happy and neither was he. Relationship doomed from the start.

Bro idk what to tell you but if you don't think soldiers and mercenaries torture people in war you have never read the news once. Also what the fuck did they talk about when they were together if he didn't know what she did before the fall?! Did they ever speak?!

He's so fucking smart wow I love him so much ugh. "Comfortable" like how you gently wiped his face to trick him into getting waterboarded hahahaha

I can't remember if we know the suicide bomber and the Russian roulette names but I wonder if those are the two she thinks are missing

Oooooooooooooooooo getting chewed out by the boss.. damn she is relatable lol.

Bro Daryl is apparently the greatest actor ever if pope thinks he wants to get into Leah's pants and loves her still hahahahahahaha. I wonder if he ever told Leah he loved her? Obviously he was placating her or trying to convince himself he did, don't worry babes it wasn't true either way, but I'm actually curious about their relationship. Bc it seems mostly like they sat in silence and cried occasionally and had weird blurry sex for 10 months when he wasn't spending days away from her hanging out with Carol and looking for Rick.

Yeah I mean the writers aren't at ALL making us wonder where Daryls allegiances lie like it's so obvious he's doing what he can to protect his family even if that means joining the enemy. It's not a Eugene situation at all

Holy shit getting burned alive?! Brutal. Guess her family doesn't love her all that much after all. Oh nvm. Ends justify the means. Altho i guess she helped Daryl cheat with the ladder but they don't have to know that. God pope is such a fuckin weirdo. This is so fucking weird hahahahahaha I LOVE THIS

Ooo... I wonder if daryl ever believed in God or if he's just saying he used to. Merle was somewhat religious maybe, or maybe he was just grasping at straws when he thought he was dying. Hm

Pope's monologue is a lot more interesting than most of Rick's I'll give him that. Ngl I tended to zone off sometimes when Rick monologued.

Bro I just don't believe that people were on fire and emerged totally unharmed. Sorry. Altho Daryl suffered apparently only momentary smoke inhalation so idk. This is a world of zombies after all so I'll suspend my disbelief.

They've got a LOT of food wow. Wonder if that's all the Meridian spoils. Sucks for Alexandria if it is. I think it's funny they call one of them Bossie when pope is the boss. I know that's his last name but still it's funny.

Pope like there were a bunch of people everywhere it's entirely plausible that he was "fighting the enemy face to face" and someone came up behind him to slice and dice. Keep in mind ladies it's always daryls code to get others out first it doesn't mean he's still in love with Leah

Holy SHIT pope what the actual fuck! Is this the Salem witch trials?! Burn at the stake and if they burn turns out they aren't the chosen one?! Altho I guess there's no "whoops guess she was innocent" here and instead it's "See good he didn't belong"

Holy shit I didn't realize an hour passed already damn! I wanted so much more!

Re: Angela kang commentary, clearly it seems like Leah is losing faith in pope and maybe will escape with Daryl bc pope is too crazy! Except that's not at all believable at least right now. Like she just fuckin waterboarded Daryl and to me it seemed like she was just going thru the motions bc she knew he would withstand waterboarding but not an emotional heart to heart. And she felt bad that they had to torture him and she had to "save him" from being tortured, rather than just jumping straight into the heart to heart, bc otherwise he wouldn't be vulnerable to a heart to heart and trust her and whatever.

Anyway. Wow. This is my favorite episode so far hands down. Altho 11x3 is a close second. Then 11x1 and 11x2 bc personally I felt like 11x2 sucked lol.

#twd #op #twd s11 spoilers #twd s11 #twd spoilers #meta #review

[dontbotherwiththepronunciation]

I really wish we could talk about Jeyne bullying Arya without people going completely feral, because as someone who was bullied (tragicomically involving the nickname "horseface" and even neighing when I walked by), and who can't even watch high school comedies like mean girls without wanting to die, I feel like it's so reductive to deny any possibility of conflict between the Arya-Jeyne-Sansa dynamic that is more than "mean girls vs pretty-but-doesn't-know-it-yet-girl situation" or "violent paranoid schizophrenic with a persecution complex feels victimised by girls who actually do their schoolwork" while still acknowledging Jeyne as a bully and Arya as a victim.

Jeyne is such a weird character to me, because I never feel this attached to the archetype she embodies.

And still, her dynamic with the two Stark sisters is interesting and the confusion in fandom is COMPLETELY fascinating and borderline triggering to witness, because it reminds me a lot to how a class of high schoolers reacts to *gasps, looks around to see no one is listening and whispers* bullying *lightning and thunder strike on the background to signify the gravity of such a word*.

Person A: What? What are you talking about?! She is exaggerating everything! Sansa never called her that! It was only Jeyne and I bet she only did it once! Person B: Oh, no it was just Jeyne who did it. Sansa told her to stop, but she just kept at it because she is less educated. Person C: No, Jeyne was actually just doing it to impress Sansa. Sansa is the real villain here. DontbotherwiththepronunciationIn2013: I don't think "bullying" is the right term. It's not that bad, Arya should get over it. It was just hurtful teasing.

Now I realise that "hurtful teasing" is in fact bullying.

So, if going by canon:

I think Jeyne came up with the name "Horseface".

I think Jeyne used to neigh at Arya when she was passing.

I think Sansa probably used that name at some point in her life or maybe multiple times.

I think that silence bestows. I think inaction can be encouraging more action. I think passiveness can be as harming as aggressiveness.

I do NOT however think that neither Jeyne nor Sansa are inherently despicable evil people for bullying Arya. I think they are still children. I think, like in most situations involving bullying and children, it's the adults who are at fault for not putting a stop to it, and sometimes even encouraging it.

Before starting to rant, I want to say:

I don't consider myself an expert on any of these characters!!!!!

So if I'm saying something disproportionately wrong in the following, I am open to being corrected.

With that said, I think this is a network of issues, most of them involving socioeconomic classes and period-compliant misogyny. I think it might look like this:

I know that focussing on this is a little pointless because the three main actors involved in this have been violently removed from the situation, (and most of the remaining cast is dead) but at the same time their possible future reunion will be even more violent and they probably won't even have time to cope.

And I can't sleep and I feel horrible and I already drew that dumb mind-map on my phone.

So, I'm starting with the least tangled component in this thing.

Ⅰ. The passive perpetrator, Blind Beth Cassel

To her sister and sister's friends and all the rest, she had just been Arya Horseface. - The Blind Girl, ADWD

I have loved the "Blind Beth" concept since I first read it.

It's so interesting to me how the most Beth interested part of fandom is the Theon corner, yet in the entire Arya-Sansa narrative she barely appears and rarely in meta. The closest I've come to find analysis on Beth & Sansa was in this gorgeous collage highlighting them as victims of violence from different sources in ACOK, but asides from that, there isn't much there. And at least with Sansa I can understand it. Sansa doesn't think of Beth once in the entire books. Arya on the other hand names one of her many identities after Beth and I think the characteristic chosen to describe that persona was a very smart and painful reminder from GRRM.

Arya thinks of Beth Cassel in two occasions. Once in AGOT, when we first meet them,

She studied her own work again, looking for some way to salvage it, then sighed and put down the needle. She looked glumly at her sister. Sansa was chatting away happily as she worked. Beth Cassel, Ser Rodrik's little girl, was sitting by her feet, listening to every word she said, and Jeyne Poole was leaning over to whisper something in her ear. "What are you talking about?" Arya asked suddenly. Jeyne gave her a startled look, then giggled. Sansa looked abashed. Beth blushed. No one answered. "Tell me," Arya said. "Joffrey likes your sister," Jeyne whispered, proud as if she had something to do with it. She was the daughter of Winterfell's steward and Sansa's dearest friend. "He told her she was very beautiful." "He's going to marry her," little Beth said dreamily, hugging herself. "Then Sansa will be queen of all the realm." Sansa had the grace to blush. She blushed prettily. She did everything prettily, Arya thought with dull resentment. "Beth, you shouldn't make up stories," Sansa corrected the younger girl, gently stroking her hair to take the harshness out of her words. - Arya I, AGOT

AND once in Braavos, when she is thinking of her life a Winterfell,

"Beth." She had known a Beth once, back at Winterfell when she was Arya Stark. Maybe that was why she'd picked the name. Or maybe it was just because it went so well with blind. - The Blind Girl, ADWD

Our first assumption as readers to the name "Beth" going so well with "blind" is because it is an alliteration. Who doesn't love alliterations? Tell me you don't love Sir Gawain and the Green Knight with all it's stylistic devices! They are lovely. And perhaps "Blind Beth" is only one of GRRM's alliterations acknowledged by a character.

Or perhaps "Blind" and "Beth" also go so well with each other, because apparently, and basing this from Arya's POV (the only one involving Sansa, Jeyne & Beth all together), Beth is a passive perpetrator. The typical class mate who pretends not to see the bullying and the way it affects the victim. The one who is decent or even kind when alone, but alienating when they are accompanied by a group.

I have seen certain takes claiming that Arya's POV in AGOT isn't a reliable source when involving the dynamic between her and the other girls in Winterfell.

That is possible, but she is our only source. As said, Sansa doesn't ever think of Beth, so if I want to examine her it has to be through Arya's eyes.

I would like to take the scene in AGOT once again and look at it more closely this time.

She studied her own work again, looking for some way to salvage it, then sighed and put down the needle. She looked glumly at her sister. Sansa was chatting away happily as she worked. Beth Cassel, Ser Rodrik's little girl, was sitting by her feet, listening to every word she said, and Jeyne Poole was leaning over to whisper something in her ear.

The object composition is so carefully placed that I find it difficult to believe it is not supposed to have a meaning. Jeyne whispers into Sansa's ear, an image I often associate with a political advisor plotting or scheming with the ruler they serve (which she will remind me of again in future AGOT chapters). Beth has a lower position in the hierarchy She is sitting at Sansa's feet, completely enthralled to whatever it is Sansa says. She probably seeks her approval.

(There is this very sweet art depicting the image of Sansa, Beth and Jeyne and even if I kind of feel guilty for reading the scene as them alienating another girl and still enjoying the art, I still want to share it because it's very cute.)

"What are you talking about?" Arya asked suddenly. Jeyne gave her a startled look, then giggled. Sansa looked abashed. Beth blushed. No one answered.

Jeyne's reaction is alienating. She giggles and denies Arya the knowledge behind that sudden laughter. It always reminded me a little of how Theon's smiles are often described contemptuously, probably because people tend to think he is actually laughing/smiling at them. They think he is mocking them. I don't think this is something completely involuntarily. I think Jeyne knows that giggling when Arya is asking to be integrated to the group is painful to her. Sansa is described to look "abashed" which I take as uncomfortable. I thinks she is aware this is mean spirited. She still doesn't do anything, but she is at least "abashed". Beth seems to follow this reaction but her description is only physical, not necessarily tied to an explicit emotion. Still, they collectively refuse to include Arya into the conversation.

"Tell me," Arya said. "Joffrey likes your sister," Jeyne whispered, proud as if she had something to do with it. She was the daughter of Winterfell's steward and Sansa's dearest friend. "He told her she was very beautiful." "He's going to marry her," little Beth said dreamily, hugging herself. "Then Sansa will be queen of all the realm."

Arya has to insist to be accepted as part of the group. It is not Sansa who acts as the typical "Queen Bee" and grants her that privilege, but Jeyne. Jeyne is the one who speaks in a slightly haughty manner. Only after getting Jeyne's implicit permission does Beth make a comment. She is not described with any type of rancour by Arya.

Sansa had the grace to blush. She blushed prettily. She did everything prettily, Arya thought with dull resentment. "Beth, you shouldn't make up stories," Sansa corrected the younger girl, gently stroking her hair to take the harshness out of her words.

This is an interesting passage to me, but not because of Beth as a passive perpetrator, but because this is the first time I can think of where we are confronted with another monster that will play a role in here, the green-eyed beast;

Ⅱ. Envy

Not it's more mild mannered cousin jealousy that gets spoken of more in fandom, but envy!

Jealousy is usually seen as a less malevolent feeling, but the term is often used when actually referring to envy, so I will clarify that jealousy could be defined as a feeling of defensiveness and protectiveness over what you think to be yours and feel threatened or fearful of possibly losing it.

Envy is not protective or defensive, its offensive. It is a feeling of resentment over what another person or group has - be it a a material possession, a skill, or an emotional bond - and you feel you lack.

And oh boy, there is a lot of envy oozing from that medieval class room, some it more legitimate than other, but all felt.

Before continuing I want to clarify that Arya’s very real pain and low self-esteem, and the cruel ways in which Sansa sometimes treats her during AGOT shouldn't be dismissed as "deserved" or "exaggerated" because of her envy.

Ⅱ. Ⅰ. ARYA'S ENVY

Probably the easiest to locate.

In the formerly mentioned passage we see Arya being envious of Sansa. I would argue it's not up to interpretation since "with dull resentment" makes it very clear to me, but there is also tenderness. I don't think Arya hates Sansa, or at least not in that moment.

Something curious about envy is that it's not an entertaining sin. It's damaging not only to those you envy, but perhaps mostly to yourself. It is self-poisoning. And I think that during that scene Arya, isn't manifesting her envy. She very rarely verbalises it, instead she swallows her own anger and keeps it inside her. I couldn't find any passages where envy is the driving force on the few occasions Arya hurts Sansa. The closest I came to that is:

Arya wanted to scream. It was just like Sansa to go and attract the septa's attention. "Here," she said, surrendering up her work. - Arya I, AGOT

But even then, her envy only hurts herself.

Arya longs to be like Sansa. She wants to be considered as pretty as Sansa, she wants to be as skilled as her sister and to feel accepted by the other girls in the group.

It wasn't fair. Sansa had everything. Sansa was two years older; maybe by the time Arya had been born, there had been nothing left. Often it felt that way. Sansa could sew and dance and sing. She wrote poetry. She knew how to dress. She played the high harp and the bells. Worse, she was beautiful. Sansa had gotten their mother's fine high cheekbones and the thick auburn hair of the Tullys. Arya took after their lord father. Her hair was a lusterless brown, and her face was long and solemn. Jeyne used to call her Arya Horseface, and neigh whenever she came near. It hurt that the one thing Arya could do better than her sister was ride a horse. Well, that and manage a household. Sansa had never had much of a head for figures. If she did marry Prince Joff, Arya hoped for his sake that he had a good steward. - Arya I, AGOT

I find it curious how Arya starts off listing skills, yet the thing that pains her the most is related to her appearance.

What starts as painful envy becomes a self deprecating chuckle and later maybe even a half-optimistic outlook on her own strength. Arya recognises that she is not worthless or fully inferior to her sister. She is able to find qualities in herself and they way she does is endearing. She internally even makes fun of Sansa for not being as good as she is in this one little thing.

Sadly she is still aware of how in the eyes of most, Sansa is the one deemed worthy of admiration and emulation, while the best Arya can get is pity.

The septa examined the fabric. "Arya, Arya, Arya," she said. "This will not do. This will not do at all." Everyone was looking at her. It was too much. Sansa was too well bred to smile at her sister's disgrace, but Jeyne was smirking on her behalf. Even Princess Myrcella looked sorry for her. Arya felt tears filling her eyes. She pushed herself out of her chair and bolted for the door. - Arya I, AGOT

And Arya's envy doesn't come from simply being Arya, it comes from Arya not being seen as a valuable person by Westerosi society and, in my opinion, most importantly, by her mother.

I refer to the parent-child relationships on the whiteboard as "perceived", not because I deem them false or delusional, but because I've seen a lot of debate going around this topic and whether the favouritism is true or not and I don't know what to believe and honestly I don't care too much about it.

At this part of the conflict we don't really need to know if the Ned-Arya and Cat-Sansa favouritism is true or not. We just need to know that both girls feel some insecurity over their bond with their parents and feel envy.

Personally, I think both Stark parents love all their children deeply, it's just that love sometimes isn't perceived the way we want it to.

Both of her parents had conventional expectations for Arya, but it seems to me that Catelyn was the one who upheld these expectations while Ned acted more permissive. Eddard still intends for her to lead a life that is typical to that of a Lady,

"[...] And it is past time that Arya learned the ways of a southron court. In a few years she will be of an age to marry too." - Catelyn II, AGOT

But it's not Eddard who Arya is terrified of:

It was worse than Jon had thought. It wasn't Septa Mordane waiting in her room. It was Septa Mordane and her mother. - Arya I, AGOT

And it's not Eddard whom Arya often fears being rejected by or disappointing.

Her father tells Arya she remembers him of Lyanna, a woman who is not only remembered as beautiful but also as loved and desired, and also shared some of her interests, such as swordsmanship.

Her mother though..

"Sansa's work is as pretty as she is," Septa Mordane told their lady mother once. "She has such fine, delicate hands." When Lady Catelyn had asked about Arya, the septa had sniffed. "Arya has the hands of a blacksmith." - Arya I, AGOT

Sansa would shine in the south, Catelyn thought to herself, and the gods knew that Arya needed refinement. - Catelyn II, AGOT

“…my hair’s messy and my nails are dirty and my feet are all hard.” Robb wouldn’t care about that, probably, but her mother would. Lady Catelyn always wanted her to be like Sansa, to sing and dance and sew and mind her courtesies. Just thinking of it made Arya try to comb her hair with her fingers, but it was all tangles and mats, and all she did was tear some out.“ - Arya VII, ASOS

Her mother used to say she could be pretty if she would just wash and brush her hair and take more care with her dress, the way her sister did. - The Blind girl, ADWD

And a recurring pattern in those lines is a comparison to Sansa, the sister who is not constantly failing at fulfilling society's expectations on her. The sister who she wishes she could emulate while also staying true to the person she is. The sister who seems to act as a passive perpetrator of Jeyne's bullying and sometimes acts cruel herself.

Ⅱ. Ⅱ. SANSA'S ENVY AND EMBARASSEMENT

When I first read AGOT, I didn't like any of the Stark sisters. I actually think the only Stark I liked back then was Bran. I was about as old as they were, had my own issues with internalised misogyny and thought both of them were a little annoying. My views on both of them during AGOT have changed A LOT in the past ten years and while I like who they become as the books move n, much more than I like who they were at the beginning, I've become very fond of their AGOT selves. And I think they are children! Children make mistakes! Children are shallow and impulsive and hedonistic.

So, I don't think Arya is the only person here who has a few negatives feelings about her sister.

More than envy I think Sansa feels second-hand embarrassment by Arya's behaviour and wishes she wouldn't be associated with her, and this is something Arya is aware of.

She was barefoot and dirty, her hair tangled from the long run through the castle, clad in a jerkin ripped by cat claws and brown roughspun pants hacked off above her scabby knees. You don't wear skirts and silks when you're catching cats. Quickly she lowered her head and dropped to one knee. Maybe they wouldn't recognize her. If they did, she would never hear the end of it. Septa Mordane would be mortified, and Sansa would never speak to her again from the shame. - Arya III, AGOT

Arya looked down at her ragged clothes and bare feet, all cracked and callused. She saw the dirt under her nails, the scabs on her elbows, the scratches on her hands. Septa Mordane wouldn't even know me, I bet. Sansa might, but she'd pretend not to. - Arya V, ACOK

And we also see Sansa wanting to deny association between her and her sister multiple times during AGOT:

Why couldn't Arya be sweet and delicate and kind, like Princess Myrcella? She would have liked a sister like that. - Sansa I, AGOT

"Send Arya away, she started it, Father, I swear it. I'll be good, you'll see, just let me stay and I promise to be as fine and noble and courteous as the queen." - Sansa III, AGOT

"[...]I have only to remember how your sister set her wolf on my son." "I'm not like Arya," Sansa blurted. "She has the traitor's blood, not me. I'm good, ask Septa Mordane, she'll tell you, I only want to be Joffrey's loyal and loving wife." - Sansa IV, AGOT

Envy is something less present in Sansa's case, but I dare to think there is still a little of it lingering in her feelings. As if we had a cross involving affections and what is perceived by each Stark sister as a special relationship or favouritism between their fraternal foe and a respective parent.

One day she came back grinning her horsey grin, her hair all tangled and her clothes covered in mud, clutching a raggedy bunch of purple and green flowers for Father.  - Sansa II, AGOT

There is envy perhaps not of the relationship itself, but of the liberation that comes with it, but I don't even think this is actually Eddard's fault, I think this has more to do with the overall social conditioning of girlhood in Westeros and with another adult.

Ⅱ. Ⅲ. SEPTA MORDANE AND THE SOCIAL CONDITIONING

Septa Mordane sees Sansa as an exemplary student and she has reasons to do so. Sansa is a good and well mannered girls who fits into the model Septa Mordane is trying to shape the girls into. She performs her assigned gender roles with grace and is willingly doing so. Sansa enjoys being a Lady, it makes her feel worthy and it allows her to daydream and enjoy romantic hobbies like poetry or singing.

Arya doesn't. Partially because she rejects that model, partially because she id rejected by that model. I don't know what came first.

And yet, Sansa also sometimes seems to feel encaged by that model and by the Septa's teachings. And often, when Sansa does something that contradicts this model of conduct that she usually likes following, her thoughts go to Arya. She compares herself or gets compared to Arya, not necessarily in a pejorative manner, but almost seeing her sister as a little devil on her shoulder.

The kitchen yielded no lemon cakes, but they did find half of a cold strawberry pie, and that was almost as good. They ate it on the tower steps, giggling and gossiping and sharing secrets, and Sansa went to bed that night feeling almost as wicked as Arya. - Sansa III, AGOT

Sansa sighed. "They rode with Lord Beric, to behead Ser Gregor Clegane." She turned to Septa Mordane, who was eating porridge with a wooden spoon. "Septa, will Lord Beric spike Ser Gregor's head on his own gate or bring it back here for the king?" She and Jeyne Poole had been arguing over that last night. The septa was horror-struck. "A lady does not discuss such things over her porridge. Where are your courtesies, Sansa? I swear, of late you've been near as bad as your sister." - Sansa III, AGOT

"It was for love," Sansa said in a rush. "Father wouldn't even give me leave to say farewell." She was the good girl, the obedient girl, but she had felt as wicked as Arya that morning, sneaking away from Septa Mordane, defying her lord father. - Sansa IV, AGOT

And who is usually disapproving of Arya's ways and telling her she puts them to shame?

Septa Mordane called after her. "Arya, come back here! Don't you take another step! Your lady mother will hear of this. In front of our royal princess too! You'll shame us all!" - Arya I, AGOT

And knowing how much Sansa cares about the way she is perceived by others, I can imagine Sansa thinking in frustration that it's unfair she gets reprimanded for these type of things when Arya does them all the time without realising that Arya suffers constantly because if it. It's just that they are less common in Sansa, so people are more surprised and "hopeful" of rectifying them. Septa Mordane almost looks at Arya as a lost cause. When she nags at Sansa it's because she wants to avoid Sansa becoming another lost cause.

And it's not that Septa Mordane is an evil witch trying to make Arya's life impossible. As much as I dislike Eddard Stark, I agree with him. This woman is just doing the job he and Cat tasked her to do. It's that she is part of an institution where girls like Arya aren't as valued as girls like Sansa.

Personally, I think she is one of the people carrying the most responsibility over Arya's bullying. I wouldn't say she participates in it, but she enables it.

During AGOT Arya describes Septa Mordane in an unflattering way and it is one of the few occasions where I don't think I should fully trust her POV, because yes, this woman is antagonistic to Arya, but I don't think she hates her.

"Septa Mordane is beside herself with fear. She's in the sept praying for your safe return." - Arya III, AGOT

I think, in her own flawed way, she is trying to "help" Arya adapt into conventional views of gender and Arya is having none of that (good for her!).

"Just where do you think you are going, Arya?" the septa demanded. Arya glared at her. "I have to go shoe a horse," she said sweetly, taking a brief satisfaction in the shock on the septa's face. Then she whirled and made her exit, running down the steps as fast as her feet would take her. - Arya I, AGOT

"Pray, where do you think you are going, young lady?" Septa Mordane asked. "I'm not hungry." Arya found it an effort to remember her courtesies. "May I be excused, please?" she recited stiffly. "You may not," the septa said. "You have scarcely touched your food. You will sit down and clean your plate." "You clean it!" Before anyone could stop her, Arya bolted for the door as the men laughed and Septa Mordane called loudly after her, her voice rising higher and higher. - Arya II, AGOT

Arya spun around, with Needle in her hand. "You better not come in here!" she warned. She slashed at the air savagely. "The Hand will hear of this!" Septa Mordane raged. "I don't care," Arya screamed. "Go away." - Arya II, AGOT

Poor woman is so frustrated with her job she one day passes out drunk on the table.

And I think Sansa suffers under her too, not because she dislikes the customs and views on femininity - she often recalls on Septa Mordane's teachings in moments of emotional need (Lady's armour is courtesy, find the beauty in every man) - but I think that as readers we can see how those are harming for her too.

"I've never seen an aurochs," Sansa said, feeding a piece of bacon to Lady under the table. The direwolf took it from her hand, as delicate as a queen. Septa Mordane sniffed in disapproval. "A noble lady does not feed dogs at her table," she said, breaking off another piece of comb and letting the honey drip down onto her bread. - Sansa II, AGOT

Sansa cried as Septa Mordane marched them down the steps. They were going to take it all away; the tournaments and the court and her prince, everything, they were going to send her back to the bleak grey walls of Winterfell and lock her up forever. Her life was over before it had begun. "Stop that weeping, child," Septa Mordane said sternly. "I am certain your lord father knows what is best for you." - Sansa III, AGOT

That one last passage drives me wild when it comes to Jeyne Poole and you'll see why later.

So basically, Septa Mordane antagonises Arya for her failings as her student. The class (Beth, Sansa & Jeyne) emulates the teacher's disapproval and distaste, Sansa feels embarrassed by association and Jeyne Poole takes advantage of the situation and targets Arya.

And now I can finally get to the true object of my obsession here, beloved middle school mean girl:

Ⅲ. Jeyne Poole and her many mixed emotions

As said, I feel so weird about my love for this girl. People call Theon a "poor little meow meow" but when I first read these books I didn't see him as an anti-hero/minor-villain during ACOK, but more of my avenging hero. I had tears of rage when he was threatening to hang Beth but I was also weirdly cheering for him. Jeyne on the other hand, she is my poor little meow meow! She is my problematic fave! And she makes me cry like crazy and I hope she has the happiest ending in these goddamn books.

I probably feel more attached to her than I feel to Arya and Sansa. I don't understand this. Anyway, I have two possible assumptions for why Jeyne is always antagonising Arya. And yes, she IS ANTAGONISING Arya, even when Arya is no longer there.

"What are you talking about?" Arya asked suddenly. Jeyne gave her a startled look, then giggled. Sansa looked abashed. Beth blushed. No one answered. - Arya I, AGOT

Sansa was too well bred to smile at her sister's disgrace, but Jeyne was smirking on her behalf. - Arya I, AGOT

Jeyne used to call her Arya Horseface, and neigh whenever she came near. - Arya I, AGOT

Jeyne Poole had told Arya that he'd cut him up in so many pieces that they'd given him back to the butcher in a bag, and at first the poor man had thought it was a pig they'd slaughtered.  - Arya II, AGOT

It was all her fault, everything bad that had happened. Sansa said so, and Jeyne too. - Arya II, AGOT

"I saw your sister this afternoon," Jeyne blurted out, as if she'd been reading Sansa's thoughts. "She was walking through the stables on her hands. Why would she do a thing like that?" - Sansa III, AGOT

"I will be a better wife than the real Arya could have been, he'll see." - The Prince of Winterfell, ADWD

"Arya Underfoot. Your sister used to call you Arya Horseface." "It was me made up that name. Her face was long and horsey. Mine isn't. I was pretty." - The Prince of Winterfell, ADWD

You know, this entire thing started because I wanted to make a stupid joke but then I got more emotional and invested into this as I wrote, and now we are here and I don't even remember the actual joke I wanted to make so I have to improvise with the thing above.

I don't believe this is true either. There are absolutely no canon indications for Jeyne to have had been dealing with comphet and bullying Arya because of a crush (there is a rather fun fanfic though!) (and there is another but with angstier and subtler vibes and it's Theyne + Jeynsa). Although, in my opinion, there are a few other things; like class envy and projection!

Ⅲ. Ⅰ. JEYNE POOLE'S CLASS ENVY

I think hers is the most obvious case of envy, but unlike the envy between the Stark sisters it doesn't come from a place of emotional insecurity, but of socio-economical discomfort.

That is why I included "Beric Dondarrion" [insert highborn lord/knight] in that mind map.

Jeyne isn't envious of Arya's relationship with Ned Stark and much less of her skills. Jeyne is envious, and perhaps even particularly resentful, of the fact that Arya is offered AND rejects what Jeyne wishes but will always stay out of her reach.

I have joked about Jeyne's crush on Beric (and her possible implied crushes on Robb & Theon) in the past but I don't think I ever mentioned the class envy when doing so.

When [Jeyne] saw young Lord Beric Dondarrion, with his hair like red gold and his black shield slashed by lightning, she pronounced herself willing to marry him on the instant. - Sansa II, AGOT

She had seen Jeyne Poole giving [Robb] moist-eyed glances, and some of the serving girls, even ones as old as eighteen… - Catelyn XI, AGOT

"Help me." [Jeyne] clutched at [Theon]. "Please. I used to watch you in the yard, playing with your swords. You were so handsome." - The Prince of Winterfell, ADWD

All the men she seems to at some point in her life experience some form of attraction for, even if it is that of a child, it's a puppy crush, just infatuation, are people she would never have a chance with. Two (theoretically) future lord paramounts and a marcher lord. All of them unachievable to a steward's daughter. And with that in consideration, let's look at this:

Arya cocked her head to one side. "Can I be a king's councillor and build castles and become the High Septon?" "You," Ned said, kissing her lightly on the brow, "will marry a king and rule his castle, and your sons will be knights and princes and lords and, yes, perhaps even a High Septon." Arya screwed up her face. "No," she said, "that's Sansa." She folded up her right leg and resumed her balancing. Ned sighed and left her there. - Eddard V, AGOT

And I wonder how frustrating that must feel to Jeyne. To see someone who she deems as inferior in skills and manners because of the conditioning they've gone through under Septa Mordane's tutelage, someone who she considers beneath her, be offered and forced things she desperately wants and will never get.

Hell, Jeyne even manifests some juridical administrative knowledge and argues with Sansa about it, something she won't get to do as an adult woman, while Sansa and Arya will rule (their husband's) castles.

"Father's leg, silly. It hurts him ever so much, it makes him cross. Otherwise I'm certain he would have sent Ser Loras." [...] "Ser Ilyn's the King's Justice, not Ser Loras," Jeyne said. "Lord Eddard should have sent him." - Sansa III, AGOT

Not that any of them would be good at ruling anything, they are all middle schoolers at this point, but I think she could have felt vexed at constantly seeing Arya reject all that she wishes she could have for herself.

Please don't misunderstand me, that is still not a valid reason to bully Arya.

There are no valid reasons to bully a child.

But there are reasons behind Jeyne's mentality and actions, and I think some of those reasons come from a sense of resentment over how "easy" things are for Arya because of her status as Lord Stark's daughter.

As Arya Stark, Jeyne's dreams come true, she marries the future paramount Lord of Winterfell and twisted wish fulfilment is one hell of a drug and not one strong enough to numb the pain! And to add insult to injury, the real Arya gets to spend a significant amount of time accompanying Beric Dondarrion and his band of merry men. I fucking hate this!

And while I think that this is the main aspect of Jeyne bullying Arya, there is something more which I haven't seen written elsewhere and I am willing to admit it could be a sketchy interpretation, but I would like to talk about it anyway because it's MY inane post and I get to choose the straws I grasp at!

Ⅲ. Ⅱ. JEYNE POOLE'S LOOKS

We don't have a lot of physical descriptions for Jeyne. Her eyes are the most remarkable feature about her, being described as big, brown and expressive by Theon and Jaime. Sansa and Holly consider her pretty. Theon calls her beautiful, but only when prompted by Ramsay and it's not very believable. In his thoughts he previously claims she is no longer pretty because of the slashes on her back. I don't know how seriously he means this, but I find it remarkable. Asides from that she is described as a skinny, pale, brown haired girl. She describes herself as formerly pretty but not beautiful and when doing so compares herself to Sansa and sees herself as the lesser of the two. And yet, the entire ruse she is later involved in with this pseudo-karmic punishment, is based on her looking similar enough to Arya or the Stark look to pass as one. I always thought it was so extremely funny how defensive she gets when she claims her face isn't horsey, at the mere mention of the "horseface" nickname, even without Theon telling her she looks horsey.

I don't know. It is probably that I'm looking into this with more depth than I should simply because of...obvious reasonsfsgfgsfsghgdnfjdhdf, but who sometimes makes remarks about the Stark look being one of bastards and plain-looking-people?

[Arya] even looked like Jon, with the long face and brown hair of the Starks, and nothing of their lady mother in her face or her coloring. And Jon's mother had been common, or so people whispered.- Sansa I, AGOT

My lord father found some skinny northern girl more or less the same age with more or less the same coloring. - Jaime IX, ASOS

"You [Arya] ought to marry Hodor, you're just like him, stupid and hairy and ugly!" - Sansa III, AGOT

Imagining little Sansa Stark going to vent to little Jeyne Poole after having an argument with her sister and making a perhaps not even genuinely meant comment about little Arya Stark's looks and Jeyne just sitting there mentally competing against Stannis Baratheon in who can grind their teeth the hardest.

While there are no instances of Sansa calling Arya "Horseface" she sometimes remarks to herself and to her sister that she thinks Arya is ugly and looks like a commoner.

And who has class insecurities and also seems to look similar to Arya?

"Jeyne, Jeyne, it rhymes with plain..." I can already imagine her whispering that to herself if she ever hears Theon's rhymes.

"I was never beautiful like Sansa, but they all said I was pretty. Does Lord Ramsay think I am pretty?" - The Prince of Winterfell, ADWD

The only thing Jeyne seems to really have going for her compared to Arya, the thing that could miraculously elevate her, are her looks and even those pale compared to Sansa. As said, she is described as pretty by some, but not beautiful.

In my opinion, the text doesn't really describe Arya as ugly. It is somewhat left up to interpretation since, while Sansa, Cat, Theon and Arya herself give us the impression she might be, there are also textual comparisons to Lyanna and even people who didn't know her think of Arya as beautiful (Lady Smallwood), but since these girls grew up the way they grew up...

I can imagine Jeyne feeling like her "prettiness" is the one thing she thinks can be used to make her more valuable in Westerosi society, and in order to keep that idea of herself being prettier than Arya, she has to make sure Arya doesn't feel good about her looks, so she calls her horseface.

And, if going by this entire text that I've been writing because I am stupid, that is also completely self-destructive and tragicomical !!!

Basically I think it is possible that Jeyne is projecting her own insecurities regarding her looks and her overall sense of inferiority compared to Sansa unto Arya.

And Jeyne has reasons to feel inferior to Sansa beyond simply the class hierarchy and the possible feeling of unattractiveness, because - and now I will get blocked by another load of people if this is read- Sansa is not very good at being a friend to her!

Ⅳ. The Sansa-Jeyne Dynamic

This is one of those things that completely baffles me, same as the Theon-Robb dynamic, where I have no idea how it is possible that my perception in the past ten years has been so drastically different from the majority of the fandom. And I swear to god, I've tried to change my perspective, I read metas, I tried fanfics, and I still don't get it.

This years Sansa month dedicated an entire day to Jeyne Poole.

Someone who is not very well acquainted with the books would probably assume Jeyne Poole is a very important girl in Sansa's narrative based on that information. They'd probably be surprised to find out that, since the two girls were separated, Jeyne Poole is remembered a total number of four times by Sansa Stark.

Sansa thinks of Jeyne Poole a total of four (4) times since AGOT.

In the span of four books in which both Stark sisters go through terribly drastic changes in their lives, Arya thinks of the girl who bullied her three times.

Sansa who loves and misses Jeyne thinks of her four times.

And you are telling me that she is so important to Sansa that she deserves an entire day dedicated to her? And everything that is created in that day is about how Sansa loves her so much and cares for her tremendously and will protect her?

PERSON D: It's because Sansa is traumatised. It pains her too much to think of her. Not thinking of her is a coping mechanism.

"She missed Septa Mordane, and even more Jeyne Poole, her truest friend. The septa had lost her head with the rest, for the crime of serving House Stark. Sansa did not know what had happened to Jeyne, who had disappeared from her rooms afterward, never to be mentioned again. She tried not to think of them too often, yet sometimes the memories came unbidden, and then it was hard to hold back the tears." - Sansa II, ACOK

Person D: See?

Probably! I don't oppose that interpretation, it's very possible. People often suppress painful memories. But I can still disapprove of that coping mechanism. Would you like it if you suddenly disappeared form the face of earth in extremely mysterious circumstances and your friend wouldn't even ask about what happened to you? I don't think I would feel loved and treasured if I were to know that.

I don't like the way their dynamic is perceived by a majority of the fandom based on those four thoughts and the few other times we seen them interact in AGOT.

Person E: Oh OP is just posting anti-Jeynsa stuff because they ship Jeyne, A CHILD, with Theon, AN ADULT MAN AND RAPIST!

I wouldn't consider this anti-Jeynsa since

This is what makes their dynamic intriguing for me. This is the type of Jeynsa I'm into!!!

I don't think their relationship in inherently wrong or that it would be morally condemnable.

Also I don't even really ship Theon & Jeyne as an endgame romantic/sexual ship, not that it wowuld be morally wrong for anyone to do so. I "ship" it as a very turbulent dynamic between two people who have been forced to bond by the horrible circumstances they have been in and who have had the boundaries that define certain relationship dynamics blurred in some very traumatic ways. I "ship it" in the sense that I would like to see both of them find some tranquility and peace in their lives and try to explore which of those blurred boundaries they wish to reestablish, keep blurred or fully erase. Hell, I wrote a 100k fanfic focusing on their relationship and didn't even let them be endgame. I didn't even let them be actually in love.

It's just that "cute, loving, soft, homoromantic childhood best friends" isn't the dynamic I'm usually interested in.

And I don't think the Jeynsa dynamic is that.

I think there are class issues and inferiorities to be explored. I think Sansa is true in her affections for Jeyne, she loves her and sees her as a friend, but she is also diminishing and tends to look down on her, and regardless if it is a coping mechanism or not, she shows no interest in finding out what happened to who she considers her "truest friend".

And I don't believe Sansa is a bad person for this, I believe she is a young girl. Relationships between women are complicated enough already. Relationships between pre-teen and teen girls have entire studies dedicated to them.

Person F: How much would Sansa even consider her as a bff? In their bullying of Arya, Jeyne comes across as the acolyte to Queen Bea Sansa. And that's just modern projection. Jeyne is from a minor house. She's just a steward's daughter. She's just slightly above a servant in feudalist hierarchy. She's assigned to be her "friend" coz she's conveniently the same age, and that's just what you did then. Like "milk-siblings", servants who shared a wetnurse with a lord. (1/2)(2/2) Lower houses are fancy domesticity to the greater houses. The great nobility is fancy domesticity to royalty. That's just how feudalism worked. Everyone was thought of as a servant, the entirety of society was built on a network of servitude and dependance. Even the king is a servant: to God. Or "Gods" in the case of ASOIAF. Hence all the conclicts between church and royalty.

I saw this comment a while ago on a Tumblr post (I'm not putting a source link because I don't believe that would be fair to them and also it's older than a year) and I don't like it.

I think it is unfairly villainising Sansa and also removing Jeyne's agency in that situation by putting her as an "acolyte" (assistant, follower), when the composition of our first scene involving them, in my opinion, shows her as an adviser. I also don't like how it is pretending that Jeyne is being forced to be Sansa's friend and if going by that logic, then why isn't Beth being forced to be Arya's friend?

I disagree with it. I think it simplifies a more complex situation.

But I wish we were allowed to explore the less wholesome aspects in the Jeyne-Sansa dynamic without being instantaneously labeled as a Sansa-anti and it is what I'll attempt.

Something I always found very endearing and relatable about Sansa was how much she craved for friends - especially female friends - since she is left alone in King's Landing.

It had been so long since she had enjoyed the company of other women, she had almost forgotten how pleasant it could be. - Sansa II, ASOS

How am I supposed not to feel my heart ache in bittersweetness? My favourite Sansa "friendship" is actually the one she builds with Garlan Tyrell, but this is a moment of bliss.

It's interesting how Sansa often finds amusement in female friends who act very differently from how she does, but as her character evolves in the books her feelings for those types of companions also seem to change.

We have Jeyne, Margaery and Myranda, as her "friends", characters with whom she experiences very different dynamics and I think it is at least partially involved with their classes too.

Jeyne is the one she treats the most poorly, in my opinion. Ignoring how little she thinks of her after Jeyne is taken away by Littlefinger, let's see some of their previous interactions and let's also keep in mind that Sansa is (at most) a 12-year-old girl not having a very good time and she deserves compassion:

[...] Jeyne and Sansa cried out in unison as riders crashed together, lances exploding into splinters while the commons screamed for their favorites. Jeyne covered her eyes whenever a man fell, like a frightened little girl, but Sansa was made of sterner stuff. A great lady knew how to behave at tournaments. Even Septa Mordane noted her composure and nodded in approval. - Sansa II, AGOT

Sansa feels superior to Jeyne for staying calm at the face of violence. This will become a pattern.

Jeyne Poole wept so hysterically that Septa Mordane finally took her off to regain her composure, but Sansa sat with her hands folded in her lap, watching with a strange fascination. [...] By then Septa Mordane had returned, alone. Jeyne had been feeling ill, she explained; she had helped her back to the castle. Sansa had almost forgotten about Jeyne. - Sansa II, AGOT

Jeyne is hysterical after seeing a man die at the tourney, Sansa isn't very concerned for her friend's mental state.

"His leg?" Jeyne said uncertainly. She was a pretty, dark-haired girl of Sansa's own age. "Did Ser Loras hurt his leg?" "Not his leg," Sansa said, nibbling delicately at a chicken leg. "Father's leg, silly. It hurts him ever so much, it makes him cross. Otherwise I'm certain he would have sent Ser Loras." - Sansa III, AGOT

"Silly". It could be solely meant with endearment, but throughout that scene Sansa is in a bad mood and I wonder how Jeyne might have perceived it given she continues arguing with her about juridical administration and contradicts Sansa.

Of course, Jeyne had been in love with Lord Beric ever since she had first glimpsed him in the lists. Sansa thought she was being silly; Jeyne was only a steward's daughter, after all, and no matter how much she mooned after him, Lord Beric would never look at someone so far beneath him, even if she hadn't been half his age. - Sansa III, AGOT

Again, "silly", and this time with a slightly classist connotation. And the saddest thing is that Sansa is right, but she often daydreams of unrealistic or impossible romantic scenarios herself and had a crush on Waymar Royce, a man who was older than her, of lower nobility and about to make a vow of celibacy. Why is Jeyne the silly one for daydreaming?

"They're killing everyone," the steward's daughter had shrieked at her. She went on and on. The Hound had broken down her door with a warhammer, she said. There were bodies on the stair of the Tower of the Hand, and the steps were slick with blood. Sansa dried her own tears as she struggled to comfort her friend. They went to sleep in the same bed, cradled in each other's arms like sisters. The second day was even worse. [...] The only sounds were Jeyne Poole's endless whimpers and sobs. - Sansa IV, AGOT

Jeyne Poole had been confined with her, but Jeyne was useless. Her face was puffy from all her crying, and she could not seem to stop sobbing about her father. "I'm certain your father is well," Sansa told her when she had finally gotten the dress buttoned right. "I'll ask the queen to let you see him." She thought that kindness might lift Jeyne's spirits, but the other girl just looked at her with red, swollen eyes and began to cry all the harder. She was such a child. - Sansa IV, AGOT

Remember what I said about Septa Mordane's "Stop weeping, child."? Sansa is vexed by her crying although Sansa cries herself, thinks of her as useless, she thinks demeaningly of Jeyne because she is crying after realising her father has been killed..

"Jeyne's scared," Sansa said. "She won't stop crying. I promised her I'd ask if she could see her father." - Sansa IV, AGOT

This feels like a twisted version of the first passage in this list. Sansa is scared herself, we know this because she was trembling as she dressed, but she speaks only of Jeyne's fear.

Jeyne Poole and all her things were gone when Ser Mandon Moore returned Sansa to the high tower of Maegor's Holdfast. No more weeping, she thought gratefully. - Sansa IV, AGOT

Sansa, love, I know you are very stressed out but come on open your eyes!

Somehow this reminds me a bit of a less extreme version of Theon's inconsistencies in thoughts and actions involving Jeyne in ADWD. He is very crude when thinking of her, but if you go through his actual treatment of her, he is surprisingly tender. The only exception I can think of for them is in TWOW.

With Sansa, I think it is similar, but whereas Theon is painfully aware of how perilous their lives as Ramsay's playthings are, Sansa constantly refuses to see the gravity of their situation and thus is dismissive of Jeyne in a moment where it becomes terribly cruel. I don't think she doesn't love Jeyne, of course, she does,

The kitchen yielded no lemon cakes, but they did find half of a cold strawberry pie, and that was almost as good. They ate it on the tower steps, giggling and gossiping and sharing secrets, - Sansa III, AGOT

"Where are you sending her? She hasn't done anything wrong, she's a good girl." - Sansa IV, AGOT

No more weeping, she thought gratefully. Yet somehow it seemed colder with Jeyne gone, even after she'd built a fire. - Sansa IV, AGOT

She missed Septa Mordane, and even more Jeyne Poole, her truest friend. [...] Sansa did not know what had happened to Jeyne, who had disappeared from her rooms afterward, never to be mentioned again. - Sansa II, ACOK

She sang for her mother and her father, for her grandfather Lord Hoster and her uncle Edmure Tully, for her friend Jeyne Poole, - Sansa V, ACOK

She had not had a friend to gossip with since poor Jeyne Poole. - Alayne II, AFFC

Remembering bright cold days at Winterfell, when she would race through Winterfell with her friend Jeyne Poole, with Arya running after them trying to keep up. - Alayne I, TWOW

I think Sansa just sometimes takes her for granted.

I think it's sad because it's realistic and it hurts even more when you compare her treatment of Jeyne to her treatment of Margaery and Myranda after going through a period of hostile isolation and a heartbreaking customary middle school betrayal, two things that I believe influence her feelings for both girls.

With Margaery and her posse, she is idealistic. She considers Margaery to be kind, brave and wise, and finds bliss (and a little bit of envy and gayness, ooooh) in the company of her ladies.

Margaery's kindness had been unfailing, and her presence changed everything. Her ladies welcomed Sansa as well. It had been so long since she had enjoyed the company of other women, she had almost forgotten how pleasant it could be. Lady Leonette gave her lessons on the high harp, and Lady Janna shared all the choice gossip. Merry Crane always had an amusing story, and little Lady Bulwer reminded her of Arya, though not so fierce. Closest to Sansa's own age were the cousins Elinor, Alla, and Megga, Tyrells from junior branches of the House. "Roses from lower on the bush," quipped Elinor, who was witty and willowy. Megga was round and loud, Alla shy and pretty, but Elinor ruled the three by right of womanhood; she was a maiden flowered, whereas Megga and Alla were mere girls. The cousins took Sansa into their company as if they had known her all their lives. They spent long afternoons doing needlework and talking over lemon cakes and honeyed wine, played at tiles of an evening, sang together in the castle sept ... and often one or two of them would be chosen to share Margaery's bed, where they would whisper half the night away. Alla had a lovely voice, and when coaxed would play the woodharp and sing songs of chivalry and lost loves. Megga couldn't sing, but she was mad to be kissed. She and Alla played a kissing game sometimes, she confessed, but it wasn't the same as kissing a man, much less a king. - Sansa II, ASOS

There is a direct comparison to Arya, mentions of many of Sansa's hobbies, some sapphicness, and if I squint my eyes the needlework and lemon cakes remind me of Jeyne & Beth. And then...Sansa is made to marry Tyrion and that match frustrates the Tyrell's ambitions.

And here Sansa found the Tyrells. Margaery gave her such a sad look, and when the Queen of Thorns tottered in between Left and Right, she never looked at her at all. Elinor, Alla, and Megga seemed determined not to know her. My friends, Sansa thought bitterly. - Sansa III, ASOS

After that emotional betrayal, Sansa spends more time of isolation and this time it's even more depressing in my opinion. The few people who show her kindness are also somewhat compliant in her misery and then she gets abducted by Petyr Baelish and has to take the role of his bastard daughter, Alayne Stone. Under this guise she meets Myranda Royce and Mya Stone.

While I would say she befriends both girls, her connection with Randa resembles that which she had with Jeyne and Margaery more than her connection with Mya. Both of them share some common interests and Myranda, isn't disdainful at all of her supposed bastardy.

Person G: That's because she is cunning and suspects Alayne is actually highborn.

I'm not so convinced by that argument! She is described of being as closes as sisters with Mya Stone, another bastard.

Sansa's distrust for Myranda is, in my opinion, only partially fuelled by Littlefinger's words.

"Soon or late you must meet Myranda Royce," Petyr had warned her. "When you do, be careful. She likes to play the merry fool, but underneath she's shrewder than her father. Guard your tongue around her." - Alayne II, AFFC

I think her distrust comes mostly from her last close homosocial relationship having been a farce, from feeling manipulated, used and deceived. And that mistrust remains but is worn down by Randa's warm personality.

I think there is is something very sweet about comparing the following passages:

Sansa knelt at the feet of her future queen. "You do me great honor, Your Grace." "Won't you call me Margaery? Please, rise. Loras, help the Lady Sansa to her feet. Might I call you Sansa?" - Sansa I, ASOS

"Kind?" The older girl gave a laugh. "How boring that would be. I aspire to be wicked. You must tell me all your secrets on the ride down. May I call you Alayne?" "If you wish, my lady." But you'll get no secrets from me. "I am 'my lady' at the Gates, but up here on the mountain you may call me Randa. How many years have you, Alayne?" [...] "As you say, my lady." "Randa. Come now, you can say it. Ran. Da." "Randa." - Alayne II, AFFC

It's curious how in both cases there is this chance of friendship being offered to Sansa by a girl who has a higher rank than her but one is done much more courteously than the other. Sansa never calls Myranda "Randa" again, but as she warms up to her she begins referring to her as such in the narration. I think that is very heartwarming.

Maybe it is stupid to complain about the idealisation of a flawed friendship in these books, but I think the reason it annoys me so much is because it removes this type of development in Sansa's socialising. Her interactions with Myranda are delightful to read and I think it's the healthiest friendship she has formed yet.

And Myranda also embodies aspects of Margaery and Jeyne, so it's an even funnier conclusion. She is a little bit less ladylike than Sansa, but is still comfortable with her gender and the assigned roles, she is a little foul mouthed, she likes to gossip and to take friends to her bed (in an apparent not-sexual way).

"Lothor Brune?" Myranda raised an eyebrow. "Does she know?" She did not wait for an answer. "He has no hope, poor man. My father's tried to make a match for Mya, but she'll have none of them. She is half mule, that one." Despite herself, Alayne found herself warming to the older girl. She had not had a friend to gossip with since poor Jeyne Poole. "Do you think Ser Lothor likes her as she is, in mail and leather?" she asked the older girl, who seemed so worldly-wise. "Or does he dream of her draped in silks and velvets?" "He's a man. He dreams of her naked." She is trying to make me blush again. Lady Myranda must have heard her thoughts. "You do turn such a pretty shade of pink. When I blush I look quite like an apple. I have not blushed for years, though." She leaned closer. "Does your father plan to wed again?" - Alayne II, AFFC

Even Lady Myranda began to yawn and complain of being weary. "We have apartments prepared for all of you," she told Alayne, "but if you like you may share my bed tonight. It's large enough for four." "I should be honored, my lady." "Randa. Count yourself fortunate that I'm so tired. All I want to do is curl up and go to sleep. Usually when ladies share my bed they have to pay a pillow tax and tell me all about the wicked things they've done." "What if they haven't done any wicked things?" "Why, then they must confess all the wicked things they want to do. Not you, of course. I can see how virtuous you are just by looking at those rosy cheeks and big blue eyes of yours." She yawned again. "I hope your feet are warm. I do hate bedmaids with cold feet." - Alayne II, AFFC

"I do hope you will forgive me for depriving you of Lady Myranda's company," Alayne told the knights. She did not wait for a reply, but took the older girl arm-in-arm and drew her away from the bench. Only when they were out of earshot did she whisper, "Do you really know where my father is?" "Of course not. Walk faster, my new suitors may be following." Myranda made a face. "Ossifer Lipps is the dullest knight in the Vale, but Uther Shett aspires to his laurels. I am praying they fight a duel for my hand, and kill each other." Alayne giggled. "Surely Lord Nestor would not seriously entertain a suit from such men." - Alayne I, TWOW

"Too late," Myranda said. "They're here. We shall need to do the honors by ourselves." She grinned. "Last one to the gate must marry Uther Shett." They made a race of it, dashing headlong across the yard and past the stables, skirts flapping, whilst knights and serving men alike looked on, and pigs and chickens scattered before them. It was most unladylike, but Alayne sound found herself laughing. For just a little while, as she ran, she forget who she was, and where, and found herself remembering bright cold days at Winterfell, when she would race through Winterfell with her friend Jeyne Poole, with Arya running after them trying to keep up. By the time they arrived at the gatehouse, both of them were red-faced and panting. Myranda had lost her cloak somewhere along the way. They were just in time. - Alayne I, TWOW 

I don't even ship them (Mya x Myranda and Sansa x Brienne ftw), and this doesn't have anything to do with the theme of whatever this text turned into, but I love their dynamic so much I would ship it if it became canon. It's adorable and funny and out of her dynamics with other girls, this one is my favourite.

We know that the Sansa-Margaery friendship turned out disappointingly, and some have the suspicion that Myranda could act as a new tormentor for Sansa, and I have no way to disprove that, but seeing her development in regards to female friendships makes me at least doubt it.

She took Jeyne for granted and was disdainful, spent a time of hostile isolation, met Margaery and her ladies, went through the horrors of idealisation and crashed against the truth, spent even more time alone and kept the wounds from her sorrow, and is now apparently finding a healthy friendship with Myranda Royce and I love that for her.

It makes me wonder how her feelings for Jeyne could evolve if they get to meet again, and whether she will be more conscious of how their friendship was flawed. Of how she should have probably tried to be more attentive to the dynamic between Jeyne & Arya, of how she perhaps shouldn't have been passive about Jeyne's bullying nor participated in it.

As I write I am checking everything in my journals and I couldn't find a single occasion in which we see Sansa calling Arya "Horseface", but I did however find her thinking of Arya's looks as "horsey" with a negative connotation:

Her long horsey face got the stubborn look that meant she was going to do something willful. [...] One day she came back grinning her horsey grin, her hair all tangled and her clothes covered in mud, clutching a raggedy bunch of purple and green flowers for Father.  - Sansa II, AGOT

She also giggles at and uses Jeyne's nicknames for Hobber and Horas Redwyne:

The Redwyne twins, Ser Horas and Ser Hobber, homely youths with orange hair and square, freckled faces. Sansa and Jeyne Poole used to call them Ser Horror and Ser Slobber, and giggle whenever they caught sight of them. - Arya V, AGOT

She recognized black-skinned Jalabhar Xho, gloomy Ser Aron Santagar, the Redwyne twins Horror and Slobber - Sansa V, ACOK

Paxter Redwyne, Lord of the Arbor, marched down the length of the hall flanked by his twin sons Horror and Slobber, - Sansa VIII, ACOK

And seeing her snicker at those names is already enough for me to pin her as a passive victimiser in their case. Even if she felt bad about it, something I could find no indication of. Sansa doesn't think of how painful it must be for them to be referred to that way, how dehumanising it is.

So, with that information, I don't think she's above having called Arya "Horseface".

Ⅴ. Adulthood

Where are the adults? Why is it that during the entire time we spend with these three girls under the care of Septa Mordane, Ned and Catelyn Stark and Vayon Poole we never see them taking action and putting a stop to this?

DontbotherwiththepronunciationRightNowRealisingTheySpentWayTooMuchFuckingTimeDevelopingAPunchlineTheyLost: Probably because this book isn't about medieval setting middle school bullying, you idiot! And there is a lot of really urgent stuff going on with the adults. Get over yourself.

Yeah...

But still! Prior to all that, prior to the story we've been reading, these characters existed in their own universe and in that universe, all these girls have been judged by adult society and have been set in a toxic environment that unintentionally allows and encourages the bullying.

I already explained that when talking about Septa Mordane.

My question now isn't whether we should fault the adults or not, but more about how this would have developed as Arya, Jeyne and Sansa all became adults.

Of corse, this is all speculation on a rather unimportant topic that has been discussed hundreds of times before and my opinion is probably somewhat tainted by lingering emotions, so yeah this might have been worthless but I couldn't sleep and it was a little fun.

Perhaps because of my own issues with bullying, which were handed very poorly by the adults who should have solved it, I like daydreaming about these three girls, all of who I like and wish good things upon, and wondering whether they would have been able to solve their problems as they matured into adulthood if their lives had remained peaceful. I sadly don't think they would have.

Throughout the entire text I wrote, I felt like walking on egg shells because, as you can probably see if you just look at my blog, I barely talk about Arya or Sansa and I know there is a lot of tension between fans of those characters and I didn't want to say anything that could feel offensive and somehow it was still surprisingly easy to write this. I think maybe it is because I don't relate to any of the characters, like I do with Theon or Barbrey, so I can distance myself from it a little more. On the other hand, this is a topic that still haunts me.

I really don't think they would have solved any of this if they had remained in Winterfell with things going the way they usually went.

But now, after being completely torn and victimised by war in extremely different ways that still somehow manage to bring similar themes to their stories (the always present threat of sexual abuse, the weaponising of a person, depersonalisation, dead parents, a broken home, losing their privileges as highborn, being saved by the Hound), once they reunite and are the only bonds that remains of a happier time, I think they could.

Maybe their newly found maturity and the despair born out of tragedy could make it easier to overcome all their past offences and forge a bond.

It's strange. I always go for the bitter, resentful and scorned women - I wonder why - (Barb, Cersei) or those who have aspects I can relate to cultural duality, immigration or rootlessness (Theon, Dany) but never for the more-or-less-happily-gender-conforming "damsel in distress", much less for one who reminds me of some of the worst people I've met, and yet out of the three girls involved in this she is the one I am the most attached to.

I think she mostly grew on me after I learnt she was omitted from the show and that her narrative was given to Sansa because that is such a cruel joke from D&D.

Jeyne Poole: Hey! I am the character meant to show how everyone is valuable, worthy and deserving of being saved and protected and how everyone matters and also to further develop Theon's character while functioning as a symbol of his culpability and regret of the three vilest things he has done(among other things of course)! D&D: Ok, we are cutting her because she is not important enough to matter. Give her plot to the barely adult red-headed Stark so Theon can find redemption by saving a Stark and getting a wolf pin and we can shiptease Sansa with a bunch of people and marketise her as an ice queen girlboss.

It's so mean it's a little funny. On a meta level I think she is the biggest loser in this series. I think that is why I like her so much. I liked her before I knew of that and I remember crying at @/croclock's art of her and Theon escaping (1) (2) (3), but I didn't feel as emotionally attached to her until after I found out.

I remember when I watched the show there was a scene that caused a lot of controversy that I can somehow relate to this.

Sandor Clegane: You've changed, Little Bird. None of it would have happened if you'd left King's Landing with me. No Littlefinger, no Ramsay... none of it. Sansa Stark: Without Littlefinger and Ramsay and the rest, I would have stayed a Little Bird all my life.

And of course this dialogue is gross and it doesn't make any sense in the books, and I still wrote it down on my journals because I think, maybe trying to be an optimist, that the message behind it was different than what was actually said???

It comes across as "I'm happy and grateful I was abused and raped" which is nauseating, obviously, but I think it was rather supposed to be more of a "All the choices I've made across my life and all the events that occurred through it have lead me here, to become the person I am today and I am proud of that person." which could still have been controversial, but is something I would have agreed with more, and it's not something I would only apply on these girls.

Maybe we'll get such a moment at some point with a better execution, hopefully, in the books.

#speaking #this escalated. #like to an entire different level I didn't knew existed #I just finished reading it and I honestly thin the fact this happened is better and funnier than whatever dumb joke I wanted to originally #make. I am so sorry for whoever opens the read more. This is hilarious #that's what a breakfast lunch and dinner consisting of ibuprofen and sink water will do to you #I feel like if I tag this I will get into trouble or at least blocked a lot so I will tag this as #Arya-Jeyne-Sansa thing #for now #I forgot the goddamn joke #My biggest fear about this is that it is so long no one will finish reading it (which would be kind of funny) #fuck it #I am posting it! #the narrative didn't doom me it just ditched me #Jeyne Poole #beth cassel #septa mordane #arya stark #sansa stark

[dontbotherwiththepronunciation]

The narrative didn't doom me, it just ditched me

Warning: There will be mentions of upsetting content like sexual abuse, bullying, xenophobia and manipulation. It won't get graphic and it won't be discussed in-depth but it will be mentioned.

I've been thinking a lot about my attachment to Jeyne Poole and I think I cracked the code or at least I’m cracking the code.

So, requirements to become a "The narrative didn't doom me, it just ditched me" character:

Involve some sort of metanarrative irony, can be intentional or accidental

Being archetypal to a secondary or tertiary character, but written with depth or relevance to the story

Becoming obsolete. Be it by an adaptation, the narrative, or the fandom's perception. This person doesn't matter.

I listed four examples under the readmore

Wakaba Shinohara

(look at me, a non-practicing pseudo-intellectual talking about RGU)

Mother of all mothers! She is the blueprint!

She is the only secondary character who doesn’t appear on the opening of the show. She is average looking to the point you could pass her as a background character compared to all the other prominent characters in the story, as a student she is average, she has no special abilities or talents and the nicest and most personal compliment she gets is Utena (Wakaba's best friend, but not a feeling that is reciprocated) telling her she'd make a good housewife.

She has an entire episode dedicated to the Angst of being a satellite character and even after that episode which shows the tragedy of her story being a sideline, she remains in that sideline.

Wakaba's only sense of self value comes from her being close to the people the narrative deems as more special and since Utena has been distancing herself a little from her because she is growing closer to Anthy, being suddenly able to keep bad boy renegade (actually cringe fail loser) Saionji dependant on her transforms her into a protagonist. Suddenly she is the one being called pretty by Utena, she is getting better grades, she is being above average. She has something that makes her special!

The saddest thing is that she had already been pivotal to Utena's narrative development. During episode 12 she is the one who triggers Utena into reclaiming her Princehood and duelling Touga, but she is not capable of seeing that as something she can call her own.

And then during the masterpiece that is "Wakaba Flourishing" we see her confronting those insecurities and feelings of inferiority once she realises Saionji will leave her too and discard her!

She duels Utena, intends to kill Anthy, who se believes is the one behind her losing Utena and Saionji's attentions, loses to the protagonist who loves her, but not enough to make her become special too...and then....

Wakaba goes back to her dorm room, now empty of Saionji who no longer needs to live at her place, and we viewers are destroyed.

She returns to her cheery, poppy, apparently happy-go-lucky self, but we know what lurks inside her.

It's funny because the narrative likes playing with her. On the one hand she is special! She is the one who gets Utena out of her depression in episode 12 and she is the one who saves Utena & Anthy at their escape in the movie. But then again, there is only one episode centred on her, right? And that episode ends once Saionji leaves her. She loses the spotlight as soon as a more relevant character distances themselves from her.

The fact she hasn't appeared in any of the post-show/movie mangas, while other show-only characters have, is heartbreaking and hilarious.

Sorry Wakaba, you are lovely but you don't make the cut, go listen to some Penelope Scott, her lyrics are a bit curt, but still, it couldn't hurt.

Heather Matarazzo in her iconic role as Dawn Wiener

Beloved...

Dawn Wiener is the main character of Todd Solondz “Welcome to the Dollhouse”, although if compared to most coming-of-age protagonists, she is quite depressing.

At school she is bullied, at home she is neglected, she has no friends, talents, or self esteem and the few times she stands up for herself things backfire. She is not always loveable either. Dawn feels dangerously envious to her little sister Missy, who is everything Dawn is not; beloved and beautiful.

As we see her grow up in the movie, we come to the realisation that, it doesn’t matter how much she tries, things won’t get better for her.

Dawn Wiener ends her introduction movie as a perpetual loser who has somewhat decided to conform to her place as an underdog who will never find acceptance among her family or peers, partially because of her looks, which are seen by most as ugly. It's more one of the first scenes in the movie has a young girl bullying Dawn in the bathroom and when Dawns asks her why, the girls responds "Because you are ugly."

In the spin off movie "Palindromes" it is revealed that her adulthood wasn't much more different. She went to college, gained weight and acne and killed herself after becoming pregnant by date rape.

The entire motif of Solondz cinema can be explained within the lines spoken by one of his characters at the end of the movie:

"No one ever changes. They think that they do, but they don't. If you are the depressed type now, that's the way you'll always be. If you're the mindless happy type now, that's the way you'll be when you grow up."

Surprisingly in another spin-off of "Welcome to the Dollhouse", "Wiener Dog", Dawn finds a happy ending. She has a stable and enjoyable job as a veterinary and is rekindling a relationship with her love interest from "Welcome to the Dollhouse", Brandon. Their last scene shows them happily talking about their future while holding hands.

So it probably sounds weird whenever I say this is a much sadder and depressing ending than the one where she commits suicide.

And I stand by that, because there is a fundamental change in "Wiener Dog".

Dawn's actress, Heather Matarazzo, has been recast by a more conventional-looking actress who is much more fitting into the female ideas of beauty Dawn was told she could never become. If anything, her new actress looks more similar to Dawn's little sister.

The fact that Matarazzo wasn't informed of this, and only came to find out that her most iconic character was now being portrayed by conventionally attractive and successful Greta Gerwig through Twitter, while she was struggling to find roles that actually allowed her to act instead of just being cast as a insulting comedic archetype, like the abhorrent admirer, is the final gut punch. She felt deeply hurt.

Also, just wanna add, the entire movie (Welcome to the Dollhouse) is on YouTube for free but it’s a VERY upsetting movie. It’s hyperbolic in its dark comedy without being edgy, and it is uncomfortable because somehow it still manages to be cruelly realistic in its themes of bullying and abuse. I’ve only watched it two times and, now that my depression has gotten stronger than ever, I sure won’t watch it again.

Jeyne Poole

♪ A terrible mistaaaaaaake was made... ♫ I love that song for her because it fits her in and outside the story.

On a meta-level, I think she is the most tragic because it's accidental. The two former examples were written and portrayed with the intention of making us feel their tragedy. This is not poor Jeyne Poole's case. I genuinely get anxious when thinking about her or how she is treated by fandom because her case is real. She is one of those things that make me worry Solondz might be right in his cynical views of the world.

She is a book character so I can't put pictures of her without stealing art but also this entire thing is about characters being treated like shit by the narrative in order to drive a point, so hahah Jeyne! You don't get a picture! (But you get links because I love some people's art (1) (2) (3) (4) (5) and I'd feel too bad about being mean to her)

The show played a lot with my hopes involving her. She appears in one episode only and has no lines. Later on she is mentioned by name by Sansa Stark, a main/POV character who is a friend of hers and who she considers to be more beautiful. After that we never hear of her again.

This could have worked, had the show stayed loyal to the source material.

In the fifth book of the series, it is revealed to the readers that she is being passed off as the daughter of an important House, Arya Stark, so she can marry the future lord Paramount who is a sadistic monster. Her new husband abuses her terribly and while there are a few political factions opposing her husband, who intend on liberating her, this is only because they think she is Arya Stark, since no one would care for her misfortune if they knew who she truly is.

Jeyne Poole, a character who is deemed as "not important of risking your life for" gets someone to risk his life and, more importantly, his skin in order to save her! Not Arya, Jeyne! Theon, former childhood co-habitant now turned into co-victim co-perpetrator, saves her. The show adaptation decided she was not important enough to appear in the story, and replaced her with Sansa Stark, a main character the audience already felt attached to, who was from a nobler house and considered to be more beautiful. Jeyne's plot was given to the girl she sees herself as inferior to in the books. Her plot was deemed important, her impact was deemed important, but Jeyne herself was not.

She is tragic, there is a reason she is here too, but at least in the story she still has a chance at happiness. In the fandom though...yeah, she lost the war, even worst there wasn't a war. Look at the number of fanworks tagged as ASOIAF involving the Sansa-Theon-Ramsay constellation, compare it to the number of fanworks tagged as ASOIAF involving the Jeyne-Theon-Ramsay constellation and you'll find evidence to that. It gets even funnier when the show constellation and plot line stays intact in fanfics, but she is still added in order to transform her back into Sansa's token best friend with no political relevance and no connection to Theon or Ramsay.

The books' author, GRRM, spoke about being upset by the change done on the show, but in truth I don't have many hopes for Jeyne Poole and considering how he is a slow writer and I am very ill person, I doubt I'll get to witness Jeyne P managing to escape this list.

Sorry Jeyne, you weren't doomed, just ditched. Sucks to be you I guess.

Areida

The least tragic in story and development, but still someone who (sadly) deserves to be here.

She is a book character and given how this book doesn't have much of a fandom there isn't any official art of her, but I like these: (1) (2)

Similarly to Jeyne, she suffered in the adaptation, but then again, who doesn't?

Her book counterpart was given a more in depth characterisation. She was an immigrant, came from a poor background, spoke with a strong accent and was described in a manner resembling someone of African ancestry (dark skin, box braids). In the movie it is implied she might be from another country or ethnia, she is played by an Indian actress, but her accent is gone, her hair is straight and we don't get any characterisation or background on her. Her friendship with Ella is downplayed and Ella only starts her quest after being forced to tell her she can't be friends with her anymore and making a xenophobic comment. In the book, Ella parts on her quest so as not to have to obey and break their friendship and that conversation doesn't take place. In the books, Areida's pain matters and it is Ella's unwillingness to hurt her that sends her to search for Lucinda, the fairy who gave her the gift of obedience, so she can remove the curse and won't be forced to ruin her friendship with Areida and cause her more distress. She runs away from finishing school before she can break Areida's heart. And even after their separation, Ella still thinks of Areida with an endearing fondness and tells her future love interest, Prince Char, about her.

In the movie, there is an emphasis in showing Ella's pain and their reconciliation isn't shown, but we are supposed to assume they did have a reconciliation because Areida is seen at Ella and Char's wedding. Areida is reduced to become an unconditional sidekick whose feelings aren't important in the grand scheme of things. We don't see her break down crying after hearing her supposed best friend make a xenophobic comment about her, not how lonely she must have felt afterwards, nor how their conversation once reunited went. She is only Ella's friend, not her own character.

The irony, Ella's quest being triggered by Areida's feelings is turned into Ella's quest being triggered by Ella's feelings because neither the audience, nor the narrative, nor the people making the movie care about Areida's feelings, something the novel has been trying to portray as wrong multiple times.

The adaptation of Ella Enchanted (which I only watched two days ago because of curiosity and oh god why did they whitewash Char??? WHY IS LUCINDA A RACIAL STEREOTYPE???? No wonder my parents didn't let me watch Disney movies! they suck!) was so different from the book that talking about them as one almost feels wrong. Had they gone to claim the book was the inspiration behind this movie, that would have been alright, but as an adaptation, it's quite horrendous. I can understand why they made the changes they made, but given how the movie has overshadowed the book in popular culture, and thus it is Movie!Areida who people might remember, I still have to let her stay here.

So, yeah...I think this is it. It's the irony and the pain behind the irony. Yeah...

#anthy himemiya is kind of the anti-character to this because she was doomed by the narrative until SHE DITCHED THE NARRATIVE #amazing I love that for her #Vale hasn't read Ella Enchanted and Tânia doesn't like Solondz (honestly good call. based) #So I don’t know a single person who knows all these characters so this is kind of pointless #but sometimes this type of stuff is at the very least distracting #speaking #fandom related #the narrative didn't doom me it just ditched me #Wakaba shinohara #revolutionary girl utena #welcome to the dollhouse #todd solondz #jeyne poole #asoiaf #Ella enchanted #Gail Carson levine #literature #Spotify

[dontbotherwiththepronunciation]

Kind of whiny anti-got post because I’m still thinking about Jeyne and I’m slowly linking her to other characters from other media:

In regards to the other post. I’ve been thinking about this and I believe my strong affection for Jeyne Poole is linked to my affection for Wakaba Shinohara and the way the narrative plays with her emotions by having her be a social circle filler character, only to then suddenly deconstruct the character archetype she embodies, be given a plot and complex emotions and now that the audience is feeling tremendously for her, transforming her back into the social circle filler character.

The difference is that with RGU this is done purposefully and it is intended to make us feel the tragedy of Wakaba and her perpetual sense of inferiority over Utena and Anthy. It is intentionally meant to be ironic and in the very end the narrative still somehow subverts this by letting her turn into a car too (haha now I fully alienated anyone who hasn’t seen Utena but was still reading this) and being a pivotal element in Utena & Anthy’s liberation.

Jeyne doesn’t. Her situation isn’t an intentional critique from D&D. It’s them wanting to profit from the sensationalist rape plot without having to pay another actress or making a narrative more complicated by taking off the Stark goggles and showing Theon as a victim of them.

#speaking #this is the same level of nihilism done by Todd Solondz when he decided to give Dawn a happy ending but #also decided to recast the actress for a more conventionally attractive one and by doing so he reinforced the previous points of the movie. #the real Dawn killed herself. the Dawn who got a happy ending could only get it because she was now profitable. #it’s the same nihilism but in Solondz and RGUs case it’s intentional and coherent #In GOT it’s completely accidental and it makes me care for her so so so much to the point I feel like I need to protect her. #which is stupid. #the narrative didn't doom me it just ditched me #characters #anti-got #i always feel so bad about using that tag but I just want to make sure

[dontbotherwiththepronunciation]

your favorite tropes to read/write/draw!

Sorry for taking longer to answer! This was a bit more difficult because I wasn't sure on what counted as a trope or not.

I love reading any attempts at writing horror, especially when folkloric elects are involved, so most of the tropes that fit in that umbrella are a delight to witness. Also interactions built on the Lonely Together trope, Bonding Over Dislikes. Oh and pyrrhic victories or Doomed Moral Victors.

I don't know if they are my favourites to write but my five longest most emotional fics all involve the Deconstructed Character Archetype trope, giving a voice to the Social Circle Filler and dwelling on The Nondescript. So, probably those. "Narrative didn't doom me, it just ditched me" and all that... and to my shame also the Take That Audience!

#speaking