#s5 discourse

[purrincess-chat]

I would like to get your attention on the fact that LN stans had no problems with the episode Elation where Marinette and Chat Noir were on a date and they were in love. You'd think people would be outraged even if it's pointless since Adrien was actively pushing away Ladybug's advances to flirt with Marinette. But no. All this stupid discourse only sparks flame into an inferno when it's Adrinette. Me thinks fandom has a huge vendetta against Adrinette and Ladrien.

You're so right 😂 Adrinette became the new Ladrien and the outraged LN stans became the new salty MC stans. I feel like I should share that meme I made forever ago just for laughs at this point. I'll include it in a reblog, so it doesn't pop up in any tags bc it's not serious, but it made me laugh when I made it.

#cat replies #asks #s5 discourse

[annabelle--cane]

yknow I've said before that georgie's apology in mag 190 is the last beat that wraps up her and jon's arc about culpability and support and addiction, and I would like to say that past me is a little dumb idiot, because that scene isn't the last beat of their arc, this one is:

cigarettes and the web lighter, the show's ultimate symbols of subtle manipulation and loss of control. it's a tangible representation that not only has georgie changed her mind about how jon handled his situation, but she's also accepted that she's not immune to having her own strings pulled, making a dodgy decision, and being sucked inexorably into the fray. in a bit of a reversal from their earlier roles, in this conversation jon tries to take all the blame for the apocalypse and georgie's the one telling him "obviously it's not your fault that you didn't outsmart the embodiment of schemes. everyone makes bad choices, it's just rotten luck that yours turned out to be tied to all this." she's left behind all judgment for "bad" habits and choices, she directly understands that none of this can be dodged forever.

#taps sign again that says 'why does all Georgie Discourse ignore all her s5 scenes they're kinda important' #gworgie.... #tma #id in alt text #marina marvels at life

[jewishjon]

Look, I love Jon as much as the next person but I think some of you have gone so far along the ‘Jon is a sad little man who did nothing wrong’ route that you’ve genuinely forgotten all the times he held power in a situation or like. Made a decision that hurt people

#yes Jon was in a terrible situation where he was manipulated and was often powerless and blamed for things he had no control over #yes there have been times where the fandom has been overly critical of Jon and it’s ok to try to combat that #but that does not mean Jon is completely powerless and ‘stupid’ and did nothing wrong!!!! #the entire Point of tma is that the morality of your actions and their results cannot be simply defined as good or bad #Jon was just a person who tried and sometimes failed #also it was a pretty big part of s5 that Jon was the most powerful person in the world. like. did we forget about the murders or #AND the stalking AND him being a totally arse to Martin in s1 #anyway I understand where the poor little meow meow characterisation comes from but to me it’s just doing a disservice to Jon #ugh I can’t believe I’m kinda engaging in discourse #gonna be brave and maintag this: #tma #the magnus archives #Jon sims #be nice to me pls

[mikesbasementbeets]

"if they don’t tell me explicitly that mike was never attracted to el then that means he was"

[removes hands while kissing]

[unresponsive to kiss & "i love you," eyes wide open]

[the sunglasses stay on during kiss, also get off me you're crushing the flowers i carefully placed right in between us]

[no fear]

[one fear]

"idk if they don’t make it clear to me that he doesn’t love el romantically then that means he does"

"they haven't given any indication yet that he doesn't like girls..."

"yeah, mike has definitely shown attraction to girls"

[image not found]

...

#this is NOT in opposition to elli's post i rb'd btw it's not obvious it's not supposed to be obvious. but that's the point. if you read #between the lines and pay attention to the subtext then it becomes the only logical conclusion. it's not going to be In Your Face obvious #that's the POOOOOOOOIIIIIIINT #the idea that if it's not explicitly stated outright then it's not there is just. annoying and literally not how this show works ever #a bi m*ke reading recognizes the subtext without acknowledging the fact that the whole liking girls facade is just that. a facade. #and that mike's queerness being invisible and his generally being constantly dismissed and invalidated is a HUGE part of his character #i DO think they'll make it more explicitly clear in s5 but. it IS already there if you look closely enough and don't ignore things #that don't fit into your existing perspective #anyway this post is for marianne who said it was time for gay/bi mlke discourse again #harbinger of the discourse cycle. hi #(jk don’t make discourse out of this im kidding it’s not serious) #(i mean the 'bi m*ke totally makes sense' takes never stop it's just that whenever people refute them everyone cries discourse) #(don't do that) #mikesbasementbeets posts #mike wheeler

[spop-romanticizes-abuse]

“catra's redemption arc wasn't over! she and adora had only begun to heal from everything.”

maybe the writers should have thought of that before getting her into a relationship, especially with her victim. neither catra nor adora can heal if they're together. catra's abusive tendencies are enabled by the relationship, and adora keeps having to suffer for it. romance is not a medicine for trauma, especially if that romance is abusive.

#“they'll heal together” i promise you they won't #as long as they're together they won't heal #we don't even see catra putting in effort to change herself in s5 #what makes you think she'll do it once they officially become a couple? #she got what she wanted and she's going to continue mistreating adora #spop critical #spop salt #spop criticism #spop discourse #spop #she ra #anti catra #anti catradora #anti spop #anti c//a #antic//a #anticatra #anticatradora

[pisoprano]

With regards to the ML season 5 finale:

I’ve seen some people bemoan Marinette for letting her guard down in front of Gabriel since that enabled him to make his Wish—a classic case of the hero being stupid because the plot needed it happen. But actually? I think it was the very fact that she did let her guard down that helped save the world.

Ladybug has always been shown as being a compassionate person, and this became more pronounced when she started handing out protective charms and giving the akumatized victims the encouragement they needed to help fight back against succumbing to their negative emotions. (side note: I will admit I previously thought it was weird when the show kept having her hand these out after Shadowmoth figured out how to break them, but after the group effort of everyone using their charms to help Prof. Damocles, I realized that they were showing that continued effort to be kind was the right thing to do, even when those efforts failed, because in aggregate it will help things get better).

Marinette is someone who has learned to see and recognize others when they’re at their lowest and support them, and when she realizes that her archenemy is just as human as all the villains she’s faced before, she shows him compassion too. And Gabriel responds to it! Moments before, he was raving about having his perfect universe with his perfect family, with Adrien and Kagami being the iconic perfect couple as its crowning jewel. It’s Marinette who brings him back down to reality and gives him the wake-up call he’s sorely needed—and she can only do that by, not confronting him and judging him, but honestly empathizing with him. She has all the power to crush him and he knows it, so when she instead responds with understanding and reminds him of what Emilie really wanted, the simple truth of it breaks his resolve to get everything he wants—and with that clarity he is finally able to stop being in denial about Emilie’s death and prioritize the happiness Adrien made for himself over what Gabriel thought was best for him.

Naturally, the second that even a hint of a solution pops up, Gabe falls back into his old patterns of grasping at slim chances, but when he does? He doesn’t have the same goals anymore. When he makes the Wish, whatever his heart and soul asked for didn’t include his perfect vision that forced everyone into their boxes of what he thought was right. It saved Nathalie (whose illness was directly caused by Gabriel’s wrongdoings as Hawkmoth, so it’s understandable he’d still want to set that right), and it may or may not have saved Emilie (I personally think that he didn’t, but we’ll see), but Gabriel wasn’t part of that world and Adrien was free to live his life on his own terms. That would not have happened if Gabriel had gotten his hands on the ring and earrings before Marinette helped him change, just enough, to let his obsession go.

Marinette may have made some mistakes in the finale, but being the person who helps others isn’t one of them. There’s a reason Ladybug is considered the greatest hero in the Miraculous universe: it’s not just because she saves the day, but because she inspires people—even those who have hurt her—to choose to become better. The fact that she did so with Gabriel “Monarch” Agreste is pretty amazing in my book.

#ml analysis #ml season 5 finale #ml season 5 spoilers #ml sugar #miraculous ladybug #gabriel agreste #marinette dupain cheng #ml s5 finale discourse

[wisteriasymphony]

devastated that adrien's only plans for lycée are to share classes with his girlfriend. he really can't have one single unique interest can he. like... idc that I personally headcanon that he's interested in literature and languages and stuff, he could be planning on taking classes in computer science or economics or medicine or just... ANYTHING.

honestly the "I just want to be with my girlfriend, whose name is Marinette Dupain-Cheng, because I love my girlfriend, Marinette Dupain-Cheng" feels more like a copout than anything meant to be cute.

#mlb critical #confrontation spoilers #mlb confrontation #mlb discourse #miraculous writing #mlb salt #miraculous salt #adrien salt #ml writers salt #mlb s5 spoilers

[gammija]

today's ep is fun ([Fondly] "Yes, Martin, you are my reason,") but im gonna take the time to complain about something minor from years ago, because when else will I get the opportunity?

occasionally people made (make? ive blocked most people who were hardcore about it so idk if they're still on it) posts arguing that Martin is a terrible boyfriend and person and Jon deserves better, and they always cite this part:

to say 'wow, how can Martin say that when he himself isn't very open either, the hypocrite!'

but if we remove the poorly edited out text, and look at the quote in its actual context...

Martin didn't just decide, 'hey, lets chide Jon on his emotional openness today'. Jon literally just read Martin's mind to know what he was thinking about - it's not dwelled on for too long, but imagine for a moment how fucking invasive that really is. compared to that, yeah, Jon doesn't share as much!

which isn't to say that he always should share everything and it's Jon's ''fault'' if he doesn't immediately tell Martin how he's feeling at every moment. just that, you know, communication has to come from both sides. so i think it was more than fair for Martin to express his concern about the imbalance, if Jon would have continued to just know what was in Martin's thoughts and feelings

#but he stopped! because they're actually doing quite well for the beginnings of a relationship during the apocalypse #Martin isn't perfect. not by a looong shot #mostly: being a bit insensitive to other people's feelings #i guess it's cause they're bfs now? and martin put up a good front about being a nice and caring guy #but actually.... he tries rlly hard but he iiisn't actually that good at the emotional stuff? #which is why he just hands out tea when something bad happened. maybe a little white lie #and sometimes that helps #but sometimes it doesn't #anyways. #tma #a mag a day #martin #beloved 💜💜💜 #people were so psyched when he's a bit of a bitch until those traits don't immediately melt away in the light of Jon's Jon-ness #ANYWAYS. i should shut up. before i restart this damned discourse #tma s5 #mag167

[bombpunk]

brooooo the way some be/nji shippers completely disregarded the importance of darius's character in favor of pushing their own ship was actually so infuriating. maybe if they only did it with the monorail scene it wouldn't bother me so much since kenji was shaken up by ben's "death" but no they did it with EVERYTHING. "kenji spent every day and night dreaming about ben" this and "kenji would have dragged ben back to the boat if he tried staying behind on the island" that. yeah you mean like darius??? you mean like the literal main character of the show??? ERGH it'll never not drive me up the wall

i am SO GLAD other people have noticed this 😭 me and my bestie have been bothered about dinotwt’s behavior for YEARS.

personally it’s the monorail scene itself being turned into a ben/ji moment that bothers me most. because darius is the only one who tried to save ben from falling. DARIUS. darius is the one who couldn’t save him. DARIUS. but noooo they focused on how… *checks notes* kenji fell to his knees during a quick shot instead.

i’m not sure how the shippers are on this site because all my interaction with the jwcc fandom was solely on twt, but i find it Very interesting how important moments in darius and ben’s relationship are taken from them and pushed onto ben and kenji instead. darius unable to keep hold of ben? let’s make it about kenji instead. darius having nightmares about ben? no, obviously that was kenji having those! if they weren’t so obsessed with claiming benrius is problematic, they’d clearly be fans of the ship. that’s why they take all its material and give it to be/nji 💀 it also feels weird to me that they were so intent on demonizing a queer ship that involved a black boy, but maybe i’m just reaching there. i dunno

putting shipping aside, it is just downright antiblack to take pivotal moments of the black mc’s development and make them entirely about a nonblack character. why are you so allergic to letting the black character have focus? when black people already have such small amounts of decent representation in media, especially as main characters? it angers me so much.

tldr darius (and benrius) deserved better from the fandom (and the show, but that’s a convo for another time).

#💀 this got long. sorry #if the show was more fresh in my mind it could be a lot longer too lmao #i do want to rewatch the whole thing soon since only s5 is fresh in my mind #and jwct is coming up #anyways. thank u anon! completely forgot my inbox was open #but it’s nice to know me and my bestie weren’t just imagining this shit up #anti benji #just to be safe #benrius #darius bowman #ben pincus #jwcc #discourse

[emblazons]

cut because I still remember that anon that said they prefer my fencesitting LMFAO

We as a people really need to spend some time with our byler elders (@kaypeace21 and co) because I promise you they figured out Mike was gay years before the "uppity" analysts of today did....and have pulled out / contextualized evidence even I think is crazy to read considering it was based on S3 alone 😂

Like? The fact that someone, arguably the strongest of the analysts of the fandom in their day, was writing “why I think Mike is gay and not Bi” and "what Mike said was projection of him not liking girls" in August 2019 with shit word for word bar for bar telling you the framework that brought us S4 Mike…friend you were a prophet before your time, and they maligned u for telling the truth, and now that we all see your vision people still think its debatable LMAO

#gay mike wheeler #the fact that the analysts of old who predicted ALMOST ALL we saw in S4 and walking into S5 were saying the same things we are #BEFORE #when that was the most fringe opinion you could have....lmao #I'm not starting discourse about this again but. like. the weight of your strongest analysts all taking the same side FOUR YEARS AGO? #the evidence in one direction is...much stronger. lets just say that LMAO #people DEFINITELY didn't understand kaypeace either tho so. Can't say I'm surprised its still a 'debate' even if much less so ☠️ #also now thinking about the Elliott/ET parallel somehow didnt AUTOMATICALLY undermine a romantic mlvn reading from the pitch for folks LMFA #stranger things #the me tag

[purrincess-chat]

Okay, listen, I find the distribution of LS sides data to be interesting, and major major props to the OP for spending the time doing it. I mentioned back when the OP did s1 that I understand the metric they used in measuring bc it's unarguable screentime, even if I personally consider a lot of moments where the two aren't together to be for one ship or another (particularly for Adrinette when a majority of the time in earlier seasons Marinette spends probably more time plotting schemes to get with him than actually interacting with him, which would have added to their screentime, in my opinion), but I respect the OP's decision on doing it the way they did. That being said, I'm not going to lie, I laughed pretty hard after the s5 measurements. You're telling me that LN stans lost their absolute damn minds and screamed from the rooftops about how Adrinette stans were "gaslighting" (🙄) them when we said that LN wasn't being shafted that season and "buhh LN is dead where's LN??? I miss them" All of that over a 14% drop in screentime? And they still had THE MOST screentime out of all sides that season?????

I don't know that I can ever take a LN stan seriously again, I'm sorry. I already don't take people who fight about the sides like they're 4 different ships seriously bc as I have said numerous times and will say numerous times again, they are the same damn people. But so long as there are clowns dressing up and showing off for the fandom, I will be here shaking my head at how absolutely absurd they are.

Anyway, all of the respect in the world for the person who did that, you mad lad, you legend, you absolute beast. Please take a damn nap, you've earned it 🤣

#cat speaks #s5 discourse #i knew i was right about it #but the evidence is still pretty fucking hilarious #anywho #i am off to write more post botw zelda/link bye!

[wuffgang-ameowdeus-moozart]

I think that the complaints about Vickie are less "she is too similar to Robin" (bc girl literally had half a scene of screentime. we have no idea who she is.) and more "once again there are only two (2) explicitly queers in the show (I will always be a Will should've come out to Jonathan truther) so of course they will be forced together".

She was only barely introduced. It feels a lot like the only reason she exists is so Robin can be with someone. The Duffers already have problems dealing with their current (pretty big) cast, it does not bode well for Vickie's characterisation tbh (I'm sorry, I love him as much as the next person. But Argyle's one (1) personality trait is literally. Weed. So it doesn't seem improbable that Vickie's one (1) personality trait would be becoming Robin's girlfriend. Which would suck for obvious reasons. Also, like. They are already infamous for their treatment of queer(-coded) characters)

It would also take away from stobin time, which is an already established dynamic everyone (if you don't you are simply factually incorrect sorry not sorry) loves. The cast is huge, the Duffers will have to pick and choose who they want to focus on, and it seems way more probable that those will be the established mcs (Will & El especially) and not Robin's side-character love interest. I mean, it would honestly be bad storytelling if they did that in the last season.

Especially since the straight romances are so good. Lumax? Absolute banger. The early Stancy development? So good. Jancy? Pretty sure there's a poll out there about how they are one of the most well-liked couples. Mileven? Multiple seasons establishing groundwork before they even get together. To have Vickie not even be a character before she is thrown into a relationship with the only lesbian feels a bit like a slap in the face. Like, at least Steve had a bunch of character development after the breakup but that can't happen with Vickie because it's the last season and they really have other stuff to worry about 😪 Like, idk, at least everyone else had a choice, which is part of what makes those romances so impactful (lumax, jancy, etc etc), while Robin - on the count of being a lesbian and Vickie being the only other sapphic character - really.....doesn't.

(Plus maybe it's the aro in me speaking, but I found it kinda cool to have a canonically queer character whose story arc is not completely focused on romance for once)

I also think this part of the reason why ronance got so big. Nancy already *is* her own person. Nobody can look at Nancy and say "her only personality is being queer" or "she's only here so Robin doesn't end up alone because we obviously need to pair everyone off somehow". A relationship between them would be another facette of their development, not the one thing that defines them. (Like. Her being bi is literally the only reason Vickie is even in the season. Sorry not sorry.)

But I mean. The season isn't out. We barely saw the two interact. My expectations are already below ground level. Maybe they will surprise me.

#i hope this doesnt come off as discourse or mean it was just an observation #analyzing what my feelings regarding this are and putting it into words #tbh i personally would rather robin and vickie be queer bffs than girlfriends. but. once again. very aro #stranger things #robin buckley #vickie stranger things #(she doesnt even have a last name 😭) #robin x vickie #ronance #stobin #st s5

[ghostfacerseffect]

#I'm gonna leave this open for a week so it reaches more ppl 👀 #i feel like we don't have a lot of season-by-season discourse so I'm curious #well aside from 5. but you know. #also me shading s5 isn't even shading pyka. that's cool do whatever you want. i just think the pacing is terrible + it was an entire mess #regardless of ship choices #anyway enough rambling #warehouse 13 #wh13 #w13 #bering & wells #poll #polls #she speaks!

[wackus-bonkus-maximus]

Idk if you’ve heard yet, but apparently the miraculous writing team released a commentary about the s5 finale, and in it they said that Chat Noir not being in the finale was their plan from the beginning (like 2014/15) so they could use the Bug Noire powerup with Marinette. Since you’re working on LoA, I’m curious for your thoughts 😬

i have been off tumblr for a few days but the gist of all the discourse seems to be a disfavorable attitude toward this decision!

"kill your darlings" isn't just about killing characters - it's about killing things that you personally really want in your story if they don't work. personally, i think they could have made bug noire work. there's a lot going against adrien already that he felt chat noir couldn't have helped in the final battle. he didn't need to have a dream about destroying the world; ladybug could've told him about it, and it would have been narratively satisfying to her arc of secret keeping. even moreso, because by chat noir not being present at the battle, ladybug lost and gabriel made the wish. then she could've started season six with reason to think she can't tell anything to adrien, but to chat noir too. and if chat noir had a little breakdown about his chat blanc past, it would have justified ladybug not sending that text to chat about gabriel's identity (in that moment). she probably wouldn't have wanted him to know he'd basically killed gabriel, too.

it just seems like bug noire is a darling they were determined to keep and paid the cost of more coherent narrative decisions to get there. it seems also like adrien remaining in the dark is also a darling the writers wanted to keep. sure, they're getting to tell the story they wanted, but not in the most cohesive or coherent way. but you know what, at least it invites a lot of fic ideas for how the post-wish world should look! and that's really what me and noodles are doing in lies of attrition.

#ml s5 #ml season 5 #ml re-creation #bug noire #marinette dupain cheng #adrien agreste #ml s5 discussion #ml s5 discourse #kill your darlings #loa #lies of attrition

[spop-romanticizes-abuse]

steven universe: redeems war criminals who abused their family member, attempted genocide and killed thousands

audience: wtf why are they forgiving space nazis this is such a bad message to send to kids

spop: redeems war criminals who abused their family member, attempted genocide and killed thousands

audience: omg yes! the power of love! everyone deserves redemption and forgiveness, even people who have gone a little too far like catra. this is such a good message to send to kids!

#both of these are equally shitty but at least steven held the diamonds responsible for what they did #the movie and suf didnt just forget about their past like s5 of spop did #also people found the diamonds hot too so i really dont get why there's such a stark difference here #spop critical #spop salt #spop criticism #spop discourse #spop #she ra #anti spop #anti catra

[aziraphale-novak]

the nandermo shippers that are disappointed they didn't kiss/establish a romantic relationship?? they are NOT ready for that right now. they needed to heal their relationship first.

besides, there are many scenes in the two episodes where it's obvious how much nandor cares about guillermo (and well, we already know how guillermo feels about him)

i know that we're all tired of not being guaranteed whether a couple will end up together or not (looking at you destiel) but let's not pretend that we are being queerbaited just because they haven't kissed yet. it's better they evolve slowly than trying to rush them together. let's be patient.

just stop assuming that this is a loss for nandermo. for me, there are even more possibilities than ever before for them to get together right now.

#it's good omens all over again #why do people always need a kiss for it to be canon? #besides this is NOT a show where people kiss to prove they love each other lol #just enjoy the slowburn #nandermo #btw i am not talking about the writing or anything #i am talking about the people who interpreted the episodes as a setback for canon nandermo #i want no discourse over bad writing in my post pls #my post #wwdits #wwdits s5 spoilers #what we do in the shadows #nandor x guillermo #nandor the relentless #guillermo de la cruz