#not in a literal sense but like how a fujoshi fetishizes gay men if that makes sense | Explore Tumblr Posts and Blogs

genderqueerdykes · 1 year

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i don't wanna try to like. idk, minimize the struggles of people with queerer genders than mine but like as a trans lesbian who follows a lot of men dni blogs. idk... if i say "men don't interact" i almost only ever mean like, genderstable cis binary men. like. it's not about wanting people to fit into very specific boxes it's a frustration with non queer people fetishizing lesbians, stealing content from us, repackaging our content for straight consumption. and i am plural in a single gender system so i both understand the system struggles and can't quite relate but. is it really that hard not to interact with a blog. i feel like there's an assumption that everyone's personal online space should be open to everyone and some people just don't want that. like there's other blogs. at the same time i feel like this is probably unconvincing. like if someone put "people who are cis straight men at all time dont interact" it wouldn't really fix the problem from the perspective of people who have an issue.

i guess it's just not about singling out a single gender and deciding anyone even slightly involved in that gender is evil, but about the recognition that there are people out there that have privilege over us, and have proven themselves incapable of not committing violence when we let them anywhere near us.

women dni doesn't make sense to me unless it's literally gay men trying to ward off fujoshis tho.

i get what u are saying! i think everyone is free to determine what the DNI is on their blog, and i think it's fine if u have personal reasons for wanting to do so. it's just good to keep in mind that it's the internet so a lot of ppl won't see that DNI, even if you include it in the body of a post, because a lot of ppl don't know what that means, even now, and if you don't include it in the body of a post, it can be deleted from tags, and most ppl don't check the OP of every single post they RB

moreso what i have an issue with is like. making ppl feel like they are not welcome in a space they rightfully belong in due to their identity as though it's the obvious answer. again, everyone is allowed to establish boundaries, and i don't think it's an issue to want to try to weed out folks that could potentially harm you, you can just end up shooting someone you like in the foot without realizing it. it's a hard balance to achieve unless u wanna have friends that are all within the same identity range in which case that's fine literally anyone is free to determine their boundaries on their blog

what i'm trying to stress is making sure ppl are expressing their boundaries in a clear and safe manner that doesn't make ppl feel like their identity is somehow a problem for every single person who shares the same identity cuz that's not the case! but again like. i'm literally not gunna tell someone else how 2 run their blog, like. i just block ppl that seem unnecessarily hostile, or if i think me identifying partially as a man and woman is gonna be a problem or what have u. i utilize the block button a lot, its honestly the only thing that makes this website navigable LOL

#asks #answers

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rainystudios · 5 years

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Here’s a list of resources you can use to learn more about Japanese Queer history, literature, BL, Gei Komi, Fujoshi, Fudanshi etc.

fujoshi.info

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Edit: It’s honestly depressing that anyone I’ve seen so far who disliked this post and commented on it either went off on completely unrelated tangents, or assumed that I'm either white (I’m not) and/or not gay/queer as an excuse to talk over me. It’s extremely ironic claiming to be open-minded/progressive while removing any association of queerness from people who discuss BL/Fujoshi history as an excuse to talk over them. “You’re gonna say your as oppressed as gay people???” hello, I am a gay POC.

People who perpetuated the Anti Fujoshi narrative were terfs and you’re actually being transphobic by spreading their narratives. They call trans MLM fujoshi because they hate trans men and see them as “fetishistic” women. They don’t see trans men as men, they see them as women.

Just like how people who hate trans women call them “fetishizers” since the 1970s in western anti-trans circles. That’s it. That’s where it comes from.

These same people even censor Queer which was also perpetuated by TERFs as a means of excluding trans/nonbinary/intersex identities.

Either read the masterposts in the links or leave, but stop getting into fights with your own strawmen on my posts.

Sidenote, I find it interesting (and by interesting I mean disgusting & disappointing) how the term ‘Fujoshi’ has come full circle in western culture to mean: ‘rotten women, degenerates, women who ruin everything, women who are ruined/deviant/corrupted, Abusers etc. etc.’ When it originated as an overall general term for women who didn’t conform to conventional gender & heterosexual roles & standards in Japan. That was it. That’s all it meant.

They were literally considered “ruined women” not fit for marriage or regular society. It was deeply misogynistic & homophobic in root. Female fans were referred to as Fujoshi whether they were “exploitative” of M/M relationships or not. Simply appreciating or engaging in queer relationships to any degree was seen as “rotten” and deemed someone a Fujoshi. The term is NOT exclusive to people who are seen as fetishizing said content/relationships. It’s a reclaimed term still actively used to this day in Japan.

Western fandom has taken this reclaimed word that comes from Japanese context & culture, and weaponized it all over again. To the point where people don’t even remotely know what it means in historical terms and throw it around with smug abandon. To the point where if they saw a Japanese person use it, would likely unleash a full-scale hate campaign against them. I don’t know if some newer western self identified Fujoshi are somehow using the term wrong as well but I’m talking about the actual REAL original meaning & context that has only become present day warped in western fandom, and is used to attack women & lgbt+ ppl who dare mention the term. (Or label them as such to deem certain ppl as fandom undesirables.) It’s embarrassing.

I’ve literally seen people say ‘time to reclaim X series from the Fujoshis! :^)’ When the original author of said work they’re celebrating... Would be considered a Fujoshi...

Fujoshi isn’t synonymous with ‘exploitative nasty straight women’.

Many of these women were & are queer themselves and “BL”, Yaoi & Yuri works are all a means to explore gender identity, sexuality, empowerment, etc. Lots of iconic shojo series overlap with themes present in a lot of these works too. It’s not a coincidence (Utena, Sailor Moon, Fruits Basket, etc.)

Many people I know personally who also grew up with BL works, including myself later discovered “Oh I’m bi, I’m genderfluid, I’m nonbinary, I’m trans, etc.” The past few decades BL has still been ‘taboo’ for having queer relationships, but at least in western culture it was a “safe” way to engage in these stories when LGBTQ+ media was actively shut out from main stream media. People didn’t pay attention to manga or comics, so buying them, borrowing them, reading them could be done almost in plain sight. While most of us didn’t identify/call ourselves Fujoshi we’d still be considered Fujoshi, make sense?

I implore you all to at least do some research and read academic articles BY Japanese women & other older fans about these topics before subscribing to the misinformed hate-wagon and bastardizing a non-western term beyond recognition.

I also find it worth mentioning that Fujoshi & Fudanshi both refer to women & men respectively who are “corrupt/rotten/disposable” for enjoying M/M relationships in any fashion. Sexualizing men is seen as inherently negative.

(This is a side topic but there is even a whole paper (I dont think it’s been published yet? I know this because I attended a conference where she presented last month) done by Kazumi Nagaike who found that there are self identified Fudanshi men who identify as straight & read BL manga because its the only media in which they can experience a male character receiving romantic affection, attention and being comforted and cared for lovingly) They actively hide it though because it would be seen as shameful. Fujoshi & Fudanshi culture isn’t as shallow & degenerate as these westerners make them seem.)

But, there is no mainstream term (if any) for individuals who write about/enjoy or sexualize F/F relationships, and if there IS a term I’ve never seen anyone use it or make a big fuss over it to remotely the same degree. No “lets reclaim these yuri/lesbian characters from those nasty men >:)” large scale campaigns. It’s always women & queer fans that get thrown under the bus.

Here’s a great master post with numerous sources and further in depth explanations I would just end up copypasting so here’s the link instead

#journal #fujoshi

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adorpheus · 3 years

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on fujoshi and fetishization

Lately, more and more, both here on tumblr and on other sites, I keep seeing people spew unfiltered hatred at fujoshi - that is, women who like mlm content such as gay fanfic and fanart featuring men with other men. And I don’t mean like a specific type of fujoshi, like the ones who are genuinely being weird about it, but just like a general hatred for girls (but especially straight identifying girls) who express love for gay romance.

I hate to break this to you all, but women (including straight women!) actually are allowed to like mlm fanfiction and fanart, even enthusiastically so. A woman simply expressing her love of gay fanfic, even if it is in kind of a cringey way or a way that you personally don’t like, is NOT automatically fetishization.

I’ve been on the receiving end of fetishization for my entire life, from a very young age, as many black and brown folx have, so I consider myself pretty well acquainted with how it works. Fetishization isn’t just like, being really into drawings of boys kissing, or whatever the fuck y’all are trying to imply on this god forsaken site.

Fetishization is complicated imo, and can encompass a lot of things, such as (but not limited to):

1 - dehumanization, e.g. viewing a group of people as sexual objects who exist purely for entertainment purposes, rather than acknowledging them as actual people who deserve respect and rights

and

2 - projecting certain assumptions onto said people based on their race/sexuality/whatever is being fetishized. These assumptions are often, but not always, sexual in nature (like the idea that black people in general are more sexual than other races, etc etc etc).

I’m going to use myself as an example to illustrate my point. Please note this isn’t the best or most nuanced example, but it is the most simplistic. A white person finding me attractive and respectfully appreciating my black features as part of what makes me beautiful is not, on its own, fetishization. A white person finding me attractive solely or mostly because I’m a PoC is now in fetishization territory. Similarly, assuming I’m dominant because of my blackness (like saying “step on me mommy” and shit like that) is hella fetishistic.

That being said, theres definitely a difference between how fetishization works in real life with real people, and how it shows up in fandom.

Fetishization manifests in many different ways in fandom, but most commonly on the mlm side of things, I personally see it appear as conservative (or centrist) women who love the idea of two men together, but don’t actually like gay people, and don’t necessarily think LGBT+ people deserve rights (or “special treatment” as its sometimes dog whistled). These women view queer men as sexual objects for entertainment rather than an actual group of people who deserve to be protected from systemic oppression. I’ve noticed that they often don’t even think of the men they “ship” together as actually being gay, and may even express disgust at the idea of a character in an mlm ship being headcanon’d gay. In case its not obvious, this is pretty much exactly the same way a lot of cishet men fetishize lesbians (they see “lesbian” as a porn category, rather than like, what actual LGBT people think of when we read the word lesbian). There’s a pretty popular viral tweet thread going around where someone explains seeing this trend of conservative women who like mlm stuff, and I have also personally witnessed this phenomenon myself in more than one fandom.

The funny thing is, maybe its just me buuuut.... The place I see this particular kind of fetishization happen most is not in the anime/BL fandom, from which the term fujoshi originates - I actually see these type of women way way more in western fandom spaces like Supernatural, Harry Potter, and Hannibal. I can’t stress this enough, there’s a shocking amount of people who are like, straight up trump supporters in these fandoms. If you want to experience it, try joining a Hannigram or Destiel group on facebook and you will probably encounter one eventually especially if you happen to be living through a major historical event. Like these women probably wouldn’t even be considered “fujoshi”, because that term doesn’t really apply to them given they aren’t in the BL/anime fandom, yet they’re the ones I personally see actually doing the most harm.

Of course this isn’t the ONLY kind of fetishizing woman in the mlm/BL world, there are other ways fetishization shows up, but this is the most toxic kind that I see.

A girl just being really into BL or whatever may be “cringe” to you, or she may be expressing her love for BL in a “cringey” way, but a straight woman really enjoying BL is not, on its own, somehow inherently fetishization. Yes, sometimes teenage girls act kind of cringe about how much they like BL and that might be annoying to you, but its not necessarily ~problematic~.

That being said, IT NEEDS BE REMARKED that a lot of the “fujoshi” that you all hate so deeply, are actually closeted trans men or nonbinary people who haven’t yet come to terms with their gender identity, or are otherwise just NOT cishet. I know because I was one of these closeted people for years, and I honestly think tumblr and the cultural obsession around purity is one of the many reasons I was closeted so deeply for so long. STORYTIME LOL!!! In my early adolescence, I was a sort of proto “fujoshi”. I identified as a bi girl who was mostly attracted to men, or as most (biphobic) people called it, “practically straight”. I wrote and read “slash” fanfic and looked at as well as drew my own fanart. We didn’t use the term fujoshi back then, but that’s definitely how I could have been described. I was obsessed with yaoi, BL, whatever you want to call it, to a cringe-inducing degree. I really struggled to relate to most het romances, so when I first discovered yaoi fanfics (as we called them at the time), I fell in love and felt like I finally found the type of romance content that was made for me. I didn’t know exactly why, I just knew it hit different. LGBT+ fanart and fanfiction brought me an immense amount of joy, and I didn’t really think too hard about why.

At some point, in my early 20s, after reading lots of discourse™ here on tumblr and other places like twitter, I started to get the sinking feeling that my passion for gay fanfiction was ~problematic~. I had always felt a sense of guilt for being into mlm content, because literally anyone who found out I liked BL (especially the men I dated) shamed me for liking it all the fucking time (which btw is literally just homophobic, like can we talk about that?). In addition to THAT bullshit, now I’m seeing posts telling me that girls who like BL are cringey gross fetishists who inspire rage and should go die?

Let me tell you, I internalized the fuck out of messages like this. I desperately wanted to avoid being ~problematic~. At the time, I thought being problematic was like the worst thing you could be. I was terrified of being “cancelled”, before canceling was even really a thing. I thought to myself, “oh my god, I’m gross for liking this stuff? I should stop.” I beat myself up over this. I wanted so badly to be accepted, and to be deemed a Good Person by the internet and society at large.

I tried to shape up and become a good ally (lmfao). I stopped writing fanfic and deleted all the ones I was working on at the time. I made a concerted effort to assimilate into cishet culture, including trying to indulge myself more deeply in the few fandoms I could find that had het content I did enjoy (Buffy, True Blood, Pretty Little Liars, etc). I would occasionally look at BL/fanfic/etc in private, but then I would repress my interest in it and not look for a while. Instead I would look at women in straight relationships, and create extremely heterosexual Couple Goals pinterest boards, and try to figure out how I could become more like these women, so I, too, could be loved someday.

This cycle of repression lasted like eight years. Throughout it all, I was performing womanhood to the best of my ability and trying to become a woman that was worthy of being in a relationship. I went in and out of several “straight” relationships, wondering why they didn’t make me feel the way reading fanfic did. Most of all, I couldn’t figure out why straight intimacy didn’t work for me. I just didn’t enjoy it. I always preferred looking at or making gay fanfiction/fanart over actual intimacy with men in real life.

Eventually, I stumbled upon a trans coming out video that someone I was following posted online, my egg started to crack, and to make an extremely long story short, after like 3 years of introspection and many gender panic attacks that I still experience to this day, I realized that I’m uh... MAYBE... NOT CIS..!? :|

I truly believe if I had just been ALLOWED TO LIKE GAY STUFF WITHOUT BEING SHAMED FOR IT, I probably would have realized I was trans way way sooner. Because for me, indulging in my love of gay romance and writing gay fanfic wasn’t me being a weirdo fetishist, it was actually me exploring my own gender identity. It is what helped me come to terms with being a nonbinary trans boy.

Not everyone realizes they are trans at age 2 or whatever the fuck. Sometimes you have to go through a cringey fujoshi phase and multiple existential crises to realize how fucking gay you are AND THATS FINE.

And one more thing - can we just be real here?

A lot of anti-fujoshi sentiment is literally just misogyny. omg please realize this. Its “women aren’t allowed to enjoy things” but, like... with gay fanfics. Some of the anti-fujoshi posts I see come across my dash are clearly ppl projecting a caricature they invented in their head of a demonic fujoshi fetishist onto any woman who expresses what they consider to be a little too much enthusiasm for gay content and then using their perception of that individual as an excuse to justify their disdain for any women, especially straight women, ‘invading’ their ~oh so exclusive~ queer fandom spaces.

god get over yrselfs this is gatekeeping by another name

idk why i spent so long writing this no one is even going to read it, does anyone even still use this site

*EDIT: HOLY SHIT WHEN DOING RESEARCH FOR THIS POST I FOUND OUT THAT Y-GALLERY IS BACK OMG!!!

#rant #fujoshi #I SAID WHAT I SAID #personal #gender stuff

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cuntess-carmilla · 4 years

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The thing about the toothpaste flag (that shitty recolor of the lesbian flag) that some mostly white gay men are claiming as their own, is white gay men act like they're the most creative and innovative people in the world and then pull shit like that, always on the backs of wlw, trans women, and gay moc.

(Almost?) all the actually innovative and amazing things coming from "gay culture" (quote marks because there’s no UNIVERSAL gay culture; race, ethnicity and location change things) either comes from gays of color, or actually comes from trans women (also often trans woc at that, especially Black ones), and tbh many times also Jewish gays and trans women regardless of their race.

Then there's how much these white (and often gentile) gay men straight up steal the creative efforts of wlw or demand that the creative efforts by us include THEM, as if they ever did the same for us and as if we ever demanded the same from them. Such as the dudes who DEMAND angrily that things created by wlw MUST include them too. Like, these dudes demand from independent online wlw artists (such as my friend @orquidia) to draw mlm content when they're artists who've expressed, time and time again, that they make SAPPHIC art. Like, my friend Iv is bi, drawing m/f romance art is more personally relevant to them than content about only dudes lol.

But no, we must ALWAYS cater to them. When have they catered to us, though? Imagine if we went around behaving the same way.

The male entitlement is so bad that when wlw started making fucking moodboards for fun FOR OURSELVES dudes were ENRAGED that WE weren't making moodboards for THEM as if it was so fucking hard to just fucking copy our ideas themselves as they always do. But no, WE somehow were responsible that there weren’t fucking moodboards for them! Because they still see women as owing our labor to them! Incredible.

Same with shit like when the reclamation of "sapphic" became more popular and they were like QUICK, WE NEED OUR VERSION OF THAT and made up "achillean" which makes no fucking sense since it lacks the historical value of "sapphic" and Achilles wasn't even a real person. "Sapphic" was originally used to medicalize and brutalize wlw. WE didn't make up "sapphic", cishets made it up to insult and marginalize us and we reclaimed it centuries after it stopped being commonly used in that way. Not to mention, Sappho was an actual real fucking person. "Achillean" is literally QUICK, WE NEED A NEW SLUR THAT MIRRORS THE GIRLS'.

There's a reason most of the dudes using it are white. This obsession modern and usually younger AND WHITE gay and bi dudes have with being a perfect "male reflection" of lesbians and bi women is soooooo white gender binary.

You don't have to be! You can and SHOULD develop your own cultural elements independent from us, or if you’re gonna create things that have relation to us, it should be an organic result of you BEING IN COMMUNITY WITH US, like femme/butch was (which regarding its use in the ballroom scene, happened in Black and Latine LGBT communities, which isn’t surprising as LGBT poc tend to be less stupidly separatist).

But so many of you refuse to even consider us wlw as Actually Gay, even those of us who're lesbians (by the way, you shouldn't do it to bi women either), let alone to consider us as a valuable and important part of your communities. If you bitches thought of us as Actually Gay you wouldn’t constantly accuse wlw who so much as accidentally glance upon mlm media, of fetishizing you EVEN WHEN IT COMES TO LESBIANS LIKE COME ON, WE DON’T WANT YOU (let me repeat, still not ok and still stupid regarding bi women, they can and do relate to gay content in general because they’re a type of gay woman!).

You go so far to not consider us Actually Gay that you act like we face no violence, like corrective rape is "just" because we're women and has nothing to do with homophobia and thus it doesn't count as homophobic violence so wlw are still “privileged”, as if misogyny wasn't an INTENSIFIER of homophobia. Don’t get me started on how you all act regarding ~representation~, or, ykw? I will start.

You all act like there's more wlw representation in media than mlm representation when 1) that's verifyingly false, and ours mostly happens in fucking cartoons only, 2) the wlw rep in mainstream media is MOSTLY CREATED BY WLW OURSELVES after fighting for DECADES for our content to not be censored, both as creators and as fans. And you act like it's a privilege? We fought so hard to get scraps, and that’s a privilege to you. You disregard even our most defanged activism and believe we were gifted wlw rep because society loves us THAT MUCH in your eyes! We didn’t FIGHT for it, it was handed to us on a silver plate.

Did you see how much we campaigned for Harley Quinn (questionable a show as it is) to get a 3rd season just so we could actually see Harley and Ivy be an established couple, after the comics 100% erased their relationship, and you call that we got it PRIVILEGED? HQ is one of DC’s most successful pieces of media and according to the creators themselves it’s actually very fucking cheap to make, and it was still not certain that we were going to get a 3rd fucking season when, had it been a show just as profitable with a straight main couple you KNOW that would’ve been a given.

Even you boys' "analysis" of why we get to see wlw in cartoons is so stupid and exemplifies how much you refuse to understand our realities and struggles. It almost only happens in cartoons because love between women is never taken seriously and neither is animation, as it’s associated with kids.

You think we get it in animation because straight men get horny for us (which, by the way, they don’t when our love and lust are portrayed in a SERIOUS humane way, only when it’s a performance for men), when it happens in media that's mostly aimed at KIDS. Korrasami and HQ are the only examples I can think of that weren’t intended for a super young audience, but you fix your mouths saying it’s because we’re sexy to straight men. Do you REALLY think it happens in mostly children’s media because of our sexualization by men? Do you realize that would mean we’re being shown to children as a sexual product? Don’t be stupid. Other than Harlivy in HQ, none of them are shown doing more than kissing and holding hands.

If it were true that we get wlw in cartoons because of our fetishization by straight men, it would also mean that our fetishization IS A PRIVILEGE, because it'd be getting us humane and complex representation. Do you hear yourselves? Our fetishization gets us RAPED AND BATTERED. Gee, for people who got so passionate about being fetishized only after wlw talking about our own fetishization that also has way more dire material repercussions than annoying fujoshis started to get traction you sure do seem to think that when fetishization happens to YOU it’s a crime against humanity but when it happens to wlw it’s a fucking privilege.

Only reason we've gotten that representation is, again, because we've campaigned for DECADES to get ANYTHING, and some of us made the work of basically infiltrating the creative field and made + pushed for our content to be published/released with tooth and nail. It wasn't GIVEN to us, we FOUGHT for it.

Anyway, back to how white gay men (often the gentile ones) constantly take from us (gays of color, wlw, trans women, Jewish gays) but then turn around and think they’re the pinnacle of culture; I'd just fucking like it if you could at least treat us with basic respect and recognize our amazing creativity if you're gonna steal our creative labor constantly, OR if you refuse to do that, THEN MAKE YOUR OWN FFS.

Pick ONE struggle!

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moosemoose · 3 years

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im tired of y’all ragging on fusjoshi and using random words and not knowing the connotations of them

hi if you don’t know the difference between having a fetish and fetishization then i am going to explain

Having a fetish:

-literally something you are into sexually

-responsible people keep them in kink spaces and the bedroom.

Fetishization:

-reducing somone to a sexual object because they posess a trait that you have a fetish for. this is not good.

a. lesbians, people of color, trans people are some of the most common ones,

whats the difference?

Having a fetish: Lets say you are super into futanari. you like this, you REALLY like it. You meet a transwoman who just so happens to meet the category of your fetish. You leave her alone, and treat her with the respect and kindness you do with everyone else

Fetishization. Same situation as before. you like futa. you meet a trans woman. instead, this time, you dont leave her be. You say that she’s your fantasy, solely because she is trans.

How does this apply to fujoshi? well, if a straight women (the generally assumend target for yaoi) is really into yaoi manga, anime, whatever, but leaves actual gay men alone; she isn’t a bad person. she just has a fetish, and knows that there is a time and a place for that, that isnt while talking to a gay man.

there you go. does that make sense?

#fujoshi #yaoi cw #discourse

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sssn-neptune-vasilias · 3 years

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as a gay trans dude who has seen this happen time and time again, a lot of those "women" who wrote mlm for shipping/smut purposes probably later found out that the reason they were so into mlm shipping is some form of gender envy/euphoria. i can't speak for everyone (and let me be clear, i LOATHE fujoshis who are literally just like "uwu two men having sex is so dirty tee hee"; this is noy a defense of that), but a *lot* of the trans dudes i know started out as "het girls who write m/m", and then figured out that they wrote m/m because they were exploring their gender stuff without having the words for it. (myself included! and it helped me a lot.) this isn't exactly an argument against the qrow thing, i just happen to know guys who were doing that exact thing with qrow before figuring out they were dudes.

I didn’t know that tbh! It makes sense how some people might use fics to explore their own gender. That’s really interesting and my earlier comment wasn’t meant to like, try and put down those people! Sorry if that’s what I ended up doing, but I was specifically trying to call out the fujoshis who fetishize mlm relationships. Didn’t mean to like, disrespect trans people who used fics as a means of exploring their own gender, that’s super valid IMO

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tenitchyfingers · 4 years

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Anyway to latch onto the last ask i literally owe so much of my own growth as a supporter (at first) and then as a member of the LGBTQ+ community to fandom shippers and to BL manga. I don’t expect antis to read all of this because they never read past 2 paragraphs so I’m all good.

Because like, the place where I live is massively conservative and it’s not just my town but my entire region and most of my entire country, so since I was a kid I grew up hearing shit from the people around me that wasn’t... gay-friendly, let’s put it this way. And I didn’t really have an informed opinion because I didn’t understand the topic as a child, so I would mostly parrot what people around me said... without really doing much thinking about it. As a child, then, I was homophobic. I have done my apologizing for that before to the friends who mattered, and I’m ready to apologize for it here too.

But my point is, as soon as I was finally able to browse the internet on my own I started immediately interacting with fan communities, and then soon after I discovered fanfiction... and I was so ignorant about gay relationships that legitimately my tween ass was stunned by the idea that gay relationships could be so not “exceptional”. With lovers bickering, bantering, having conflicts, being in love genuinely and deeply, and I know it sounds dumb now, but remember I had not ever seen or heard about how gay relationships actually are before, I only knew what my homophobic community said, so fanfiction blew a massive hole in that whole narrative (and I must add that the most impactful ficwriter I found in this sense was a wlw). (Xena doesn’t count, yes I was subconsciously shipping Xena/Gabrielle but at the time I didn’t connect them with gayness, only later on did I realize they are wlw and that me rooting for them was probably a hint about myself that I didn’t catch until years later -yea I was an exceptionally dumb kid). And then from that spark I started reconsidering the whole thing, started getting educated by the fan community surrounding my fan fiction platform of choice, started educating myself - and eventually started questioning my own sexuality, and that’s a whole ‘nother story. And at the time, fanfiction and manga were the only instances where I could see this kind of relationships, were the spark that made me interested in questioning the world I knew, and they were the start of my journey in rejecting my religious upbringing and the homophobic notions I grew up with. Sure, I got educated through other sources next and I had people helping me shed all that bullshit, but fan fiction and BL were the start of that, and my circle of fanwriter friends are the most open-minded, queer, accepting group of people I’ve found yet.

I mean, now you have so many other ways to learn about queerness, there is so much material out there and I’m thankful for that because it’s great for gay kids how, but for me? I didn’t have that. At the time I was growing up, homosexuality was still mostly a taboo topic, queer coding was still the only way you could see some sort of of queerness in mainstream media without getting censored, and fujoshi were hated not because of this “fetishizing gay men” bullshit. We were legitimately hated by all other internet communities because we supported the idea of gay relationships in their complexity in fiction and then in reality. Back then most people hated us because most people were homophobic, casually or rabidly, and homophobia was just the norm all over and there was no amount of shame connected to being homophobic, you could call people homophobic and all of them would be like “yeah so what”. And I was lucky - I didn’t grow up in the 80s, 70s, 60s etc and I didn’t have to face those challenges, the stigma and the reality of the AIDS crisis, didn’t have to see the level of fury people had against queer people.

But I mean, I still grew up loving Disney villains because most of the time they were the only ones who were allowed to display any sign of not being straight, through queer coding. I grew up when “gay/trans” was shorthand for “serial killer/pervert/villain”, and I recognized something about them that vibed with me. Now gay kids have protagonists and even heroes to relate to. Which is great, but a different circumstance from mine.

I mean again I’m really happy that those stories exist now because now baby gays can see themselves outside of themselves and don’t have to wonder whether they deserve love for being who they are, but you’ll fucking forgive me if I’m sticking with the people and media that were telling me being queer is ok even at a time when most of society was saying the opposite and vehemently so. So yeah I’m a horny deviant queer woman, I’m never gonna give into separatism and I’m definitely not going to apologize for finding themes and stories that are soothing for me in the places where I’ve always found them. I don’t expect young people to agree with me, what I expect is them respecting the fact that previous generations didn’t have what they have while growing up and me and a lot of other people had to deal with the world in a different way.

Like you know that scene from IT Chapter 2 with the gay bashing and how fucking uncomfortable everyone was with it and how kids on here complained about it? To me that was so not a shocking scene, because I grew up as a teen hearing about stories like that ALL the time, and that was just the worrisome ordinary reality and not at all a rare occurrence even in mid-2000s for gay kids my age and above. It’s uncomfortable for people to see now and that’s good, but this is an example of the fact that z-generation teens got no fucking clue of anything. You wanna talk to me about homophobia? Ok. I grew up completely immersed in that shit, and reading or writing stories about gay relationships and acceptance ain’t it kid. Now get the fuck off my lawn.

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rottenboysclub · 6 years

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hakokuri replied to your post “@hakokuri #I still believe it to be fetishized to an extent #also...”

Wow I didn't expect anyone to take the time to respond to my tags, so this is a bit of a surprise. Thank you for taking the time to respond, it's a very intricate answer that I'm shocked could've come out in response to short opinions. Its a very good point on how gay men wouldn't particularly find the straight looking bishounen to be a very good read or something to get off on, makes sense. And I know the topic is yaoi and BL, but when I wrote my thoughts I was thinking more along the lines of how some fujos straight up fawn over gay jp men, to the point of yaoi cafes existing where actors play out a cliché scene to please the customer. Like, it's totally normal to get aroused at any kind of pornographic content, unless it's definitely not your taste, but some fujos take it to a weird level with wanting to see those interactions take place physically in front of them. That's literally the fetishization that comes to mind because it just seems so awkward to pay actors or even people willing to fulfil your fantasies of watching men act out a cheesy scene and openly fawning over it. However I do get some people will do that for jobs, and that's ultimately their decision, and fujos are free to spend their money on that, but that's the sorta thing that puts out the vibe that it's a fetish for them to watch gay cheesy romance between bishies and it's slightly off putting. Gonna leave off with I'm not against bl or yaoi, I'll read some if I see pretty art, nothing else that should stand out unless there's an interesting premise, so it's just the matter of losing it over pretty boys kissing or doing other cheesy things that just screams a girl is making a fetish out of it. Wait, my bad, let me add that I'm not anti fujo, I'm not a fujo either, I appreciate lgbt representation in all forms of media when it's positive because we need more of that in our society. Fujos are free to be, but the average fujo, which I can only guess is straight (feel free to correct me) should acknowledge that if they get their rocks off from yaoi or bl it can be a kink or fetish for them. Like, they don't have to accept it or anything, but acknowledge that it can be a kink or fetish if they get off on bishies doing cliché and cheesy things

A fujoshi just means a woman that draws/writes/consumes fiction about mxm couples.

As I mentioned before, a fair number of fujoshi are lesbian or bisexual.

If a fujoshi gets off to men doing “cliché and cheesy things”, that... isn’t a fetish. What that means is that they’re attracted to men, and simply being attracted to men isn’t a fetish. It’s a normal sexual orientation.

This might be before your time, but when I was a teenager, beefcake photos of men like Burt Reynolds or Tom Selleck were assumed to appeal to both gay men AND straight women because of their shared interest in the male physique. (My husband is still a Selleck fanboy after all these years, it’s really quite cute)

Because of this dual-market appeal, there was a rise of erotic material aimed towards women (Fabio romance novels, anyone?) AND a rise in gay porn. Whether it’s in beefcake pin-ups or acting out fantasies, male-attracted people want to see handsome men, and that’s pretty much all there is to it.

#hakokuri #BL論争

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wakasagayhime · 7 years

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As a gay man, I prefer no male in touhou. Cause this fandom is free from fujoshi & yaoi which i am not a fan of. I personally still want a male characters but that's mostly cause i wanna see how ZUN draws males. But i prefer it if ZUN makes new series that's not Touhou. For right now, i'm content with a lack of males.

i can see where you’re coming from, fetishization of gay men in fandom fucking sucks! could do without all the anti sjw 4chan dwellers who jack off to yuri but say shit like “lesbians dont really exist, women can’t be gay” etc

my only concern with male characters in touhou is people shipping the girls with them for the sake of a het ship (which already happens with rinnosuke in pairings that make literally zero sense, i wish i could unsee him x kagerou) so i think zun every day for not having more than one extremely disinterested male character in touhou

#god i cant stand het ships #anon #asks

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bruiseswayne · 7 years

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my personal opinion about the Current Dream Daddy Discourse is that again this is a situation where people tend to see black or white like in all honesty even the posts who go like “uwu you are allowed to like something even if its problematic!!11 it can’t all be black or white!! uwuwu″ are biased as hell and, to me, really just sound like passive aggressive posts who don’t want people criticizing the game the truth is, the game is flawed. it’s not 100000% disgustingly gross and problematic, it’s not the WORST content to have ever been made, but it’s flawed. and it’s great and all that you can be trans in the game, that there are people of color, etc etc. but it doesn’t change the fact that it’s flawed, and that to point out and dislike those flaws is allowed this is going to be only my opinion, no facts, but the murderous maybe-existing-but-we-don’t-know-yet cult ending isn’t.Dramatically Terrible per say, but it wasn’t a good idea, considering what we know/how it’d be handled. people who try to compare it to endings they’ve gotten in yaoi games need to understand that these are not comparable. yaoi games have an audience in mind: girls. more specifically, fujoshis and the likes. these games absolutely do not pride themselves in being LGBT+, or even approving of it. more than often, the contents in these games are very anti-gay, showing a weird amount of violence, aggression and sexual abuse between gay men (and even boys). why? because their audience loves it!!! because fujoshis literally don’t care about LGBT+ stuff, they just want hot dudes in situations they can lust over!!!! dream daddy, on the other hand, seems to present itself as an inclusionary game, with the LGBT+ community as its audience. the point (apparently so) is not to please fujoshis and give in to their fetishes and fantasies, nor is it to have a good laugh at gay people. there’s no forced sex, no violence, no abuse, there is place for cis and trans gay men, the context is sweet, soft and cute. for this reason, a potential cult ending is disappointing and unnecessary in its essence, i think it could be kinda interesting, in the instance that it doesnt only end in a ‘everyone dies nobody wins’ ending. if i have an option to kick joseph’s ass and destroy his homophobic cult then YEAH sure but if it’s just a bad ending, with no reason other than for shock value, then it’s disrespectful. in a game that people pride in being LGBT+ friendly and inclusionary, i consider it inappropriate to include an ending where a christian man murders gay men because ‘???’ with no chance of us stopping him somehow(???). i mean.............. why would you put that? where’s the reason?? what are you trying to teach or tell??

games are escapes. games are little things that distract people from everyday life. i think it’s why a lot of people like games (me included) i think it’s a lil sad and unfair for LGBT+ people to buy a game they were told was going to be friendly, to distract themselves from all the bad shit that happens in their community, only to find yet another game find the idea of homophobic murder interesting enough to be included and unstoppable (correct me if im wrong and you can actually stop the ending somehow but im not even sure people have GOTTEN the full thing so) i think it comes even more as a surprise when you see the rest of the game. the game is about gay dads, sure, but there’s no like... a c t u a l mention of being gay, nor does it show what it’s l i k e to be a gay man with kids, or anything like that. there’s no realities of being gays, no hardships, no experiences, etc. it’s not necessarily a bad thing, but i think in that game you have to make a choice for your game : either include some realities of being gay (or at least have SOMEONE mention it like. anything. acknowledge the gay is there oh my god), then your cult ending might make a “bit more sense”. it’d still be problematic in a way, though it DOES fit with the fact that it is a reality of being gay - the possibility of being murdered for it. it at least doesnt come out of nowhere?? OR don’t include realities of being gay at all and make it a fluffy, simple-minded game about gay dudes in gayville doing gay things by default because : gay, AND don’t include the cult ending because, it has no reason to be there in that kind of setting i’m not saying you can’t include a tragic, murderous ending but, imo, the setting it was put in is why so many people was shocked and angry that being said, to completely boycott the game or not is one’s choice. all i mean to say is that this is not an issue that can be resolved with a ‘’you’re good’’ or ‘’you’re bad’’. like anything, this is 3-dimensional and will have good points and bad points. good points doesn’t excuse the bad points, and the bad points don’t eliminate the good ones. idk man in the end i think we should be allowed to criticize stuff like that, even if it’s ‘annoying’. and on another hand, just because there are things to be criticized and definite room for improvement doesn’t mean you HAVE to ban the game from your life. i mean, by all means do it if you feel like it, but don’t think you h a v e to because of the discourse because i mean,,,,,, in that case we’d have to stop playing and watching everything unfortunately i think like........ we can enjoy things and still be allowed to criticize it, but more than that. we can ACKNOWLEDGE those critiques and hate parts of something without hating it entirely..... does that make sense? i dunno. im snzzz

#sindynerded #long post 54445

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