I just read youe post about the way Robin and Nancy look at each other in s4 and come to lean on each other. You ever think about how as they start finding strength in each other's company that that they might feel trepidation about their own feelings? Robin bc obv she doesn't want a repeat of the Tammy->Steve situation (when from her pov that's probably what's happening) and for Nancy because she's still carrying around guilt for Barb (which is so recently refreshed when she presumably also thinks she got Fred killed) and I think you can see incredible concern in her eyes when she looks at Robin in Henry's lair in ep9.
Trepidation is an early ronance’s middle name. It’s actually one of the aspects I love to have explored in fics (because I’m a sucker for angst). Robin has plenty of reasons to be hesitant and worried about a crush on Nancy. They are living in a small town in the 80’s being the first and foremost. However, your point about the Tammy and Nancy parallels is completely accurate and valid. Nancy is literally well known around Hawkins High for her romance drama with two boys; not really a lot of reason for Robin to hope that she’s queer in the first place. My ronance!headcanon is that this is the reason Robin continues to keep all her hopes on Vickie in the end, because there appears (at first glance) to be more hope for reciprocation and she’s already a little less invested in Vickie and therefore there’s less risk.
Nancy (whether bi or lesbian) is the epitome of compulsory heterosexuality. This girl could have the biggest crush in the world (she does), but it would take her a while to admit it to herself fully. You’re right, Nancy’s trepidation would be entirely focused on her trauma surrounding friendship and death, during the season. Nancy hasn’t really had an actual friend outside of Jonathan since Barb. Even before Barb, Nancy wasn’t the kind of person who is good at making friends, then you add a ton of trauma on top of that? Yeah, it would be a swirling pit of anxiety within her. Vecna activated every trigger in season four through murdering Fred while Nancy had brought him out somewhere, showing her Barb’s body and guilt tripping her, and then actively threatening all her living loved ones with gruesome deaths. All this is happening right at the same time as her developing friendship with Robin.
The thing about both Robin and Nancy is that they don’t have a lot of secure relationships. Neither of them have great family lives, and their histories with friendships are not amazing. Both of them are literally making their second real friend in years (if you include Jonathan) in season four. As they grow to like and rely on each other, so too does their anxiety surrounding the relationship. They are starting to put trust in the other, but that gets so much harder once you’ve established an actual friendship with someone, that’s when you have to fight not to withdraw to protect yourself.
Both of them have their own self-protective coping mechanisms. Robin’s is more barbed wire while Nancy’s is closer to a thick brick wall, but what’s interesting is that I think they’d both be especially good at overcoming the other’s barrier. In just the first couple days of knowing each other, Robin has already proven herself to be a safer person to give her thoughts and ideas to than anyone Nancy’s ever encountered before. Meanwhile Nancy keeps choosing Robin even though she’s already seen Robin at her most anxious and clumsy, and she seems to be so calm in the face of the strange and weird.
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thinking of [thinking & talking of the rian & winston dynamic] while reading the short study article "“This Was Just How This Friendship Worked”: Experiences of Interpersonal Victimization Among Autistic Adults" as thinking & talking abt things re: winston billions has Been something of a framework / touchstone for doing so re: [autistic experiences] more broadly....from going "dare i say winston is Autistic" (yes) to "sure he's established as being in a duo with this coworker who's insulated as he's vulnerable & supported as he's undermined as an already unfavorable foundation to the dynamic, & then as it plays out we see it's unilateral, with winston being hurt on purpose onesidedly for fun or to push him to do (or not do) something, left to 'just roll with it' onesidedly after such treatment, put down including around other people, Only getting less hostile, more constructive treatment when & while that's what happens to be what rian feels like, Not when he feels like it, b/c that's what he feels like all the time & only gets sometimes just out of frame laughing too, all while the basis of this is rian doing what she wants at any point while winston can only respond "accordingly" and Put Up With It and be disappointed while having no real recourse but to possibly give up on the relationship entirely, which doesn't even necessarily extricate him from being used / bullied here....but what about 'i mean is it That Bad(tm)' and 'i mean but did the victim respond with perfect strategy' and 'i mean but does the person hurting/using them feel like they're justified & normal actually' (ofc they can & do any/all thee time" lol like. yes.
anyways and some fun banger quotes in general, as stated re: [of course this is also like, talking about Anything irl too]
Forster and Pearson5 asked autistic adults about their experiences of relationships and understanding of mate crime, which is a form of interpersonal victimization perpetrated by those considered friends (“mate” is a British slang term for friend).1,2 Participants outlined the challenges that they faced building genuine, reciprocal relationships and their experiences of victimization. They also spoke about their difficulties identifying unreasonable behavior from others, and heightened social compliance. These findings were consistent with previous research into relationships16–20 and peer victimization among autistic adults.6,21
Participants in this study also explicitly suggested that a personal relationship between the perpetrator and victim was more insidious than bullying alone, as it could make it harder to spot disingenuous behavior. This aligns with the suggestion made by disabled scholars that terming interpersonal victimization as “bullying” can make it appear “low level” in nature.22–24
The difficulty in identifying manipulative and implicit social intentions can be explained through the lens of the double empathy problem.25 The double empathy problem posits that differences in communication style can lead to mutual difficulties in understanding between interlocutors. Autistic adults have self-identified how these bidirectional breakdowns can lead to problems with reading below surface-level social intentions in other people, and have shared concerns over their potential for being manipulated.20,26 The double empathy problem helps to frame these concerns as an interaction between the person and context, as opposed to an innate vulnerability.27
[...]
Theme 2 drew together three subthemes, centered around how the participants perceived what had happened to them. They focused on their difficulty in trusting their instincts around what is acceptable social behavior, often giving others the benefit of the doubt at a detriment to their own needs. They also highlighted how difficult it could be to recognize victimization, and how they felt when they did not recognize it. Finally, the third theme focused on the notion of compliance and how it had pervaded their situation.
[...]
Questioning their own input had meant it had taken them time and support from others to process a situation, only recognizing later what had happened to them: “otherwise having peace and time to focus on myself and my other friends (as well as support from a few close friends), I soon recognised that both ‘friends' had been abusive towards me from nearly the beginning of our friendship” (P.15, man, 26).
[...]
Some participants said that they struggled to spot negative social intentions and identify abusive behavior (theme 2.2), or trust their own judgment about other people (theme 2.1), which is consistent with some previous research.26,51 Some of the participants seemed to blame themselves for not “spotting” the abuse while it occurred, labeling themselves as oblivious, however, a participant who did recognize that they were being manipulated during the situation itself also said it made them feel naive. It is worth noting that the ability to retrospectively identify abuse and the ability to spot abuse “in situ” are not the same, but that they may lead to the same emotional response.
[...]
Some participants said that they struggled to spot negative social intentions and identify abusive behavior (theme 2.2), or trust their own judgment about other people (theme 2.1), which is consistent with some previous research.26,51 Some of the participants seemed to blame themselves for not “spotting” the abuse while it occurred, labeling themselves as oblivious, however, a participant who did recognize that they were being manipulated during the situation itself also said it made them feel naive. It is worth noting that the ability to retrospectively identify abuse and the ability to spot abuse “in situ” are not the same, but that they may lead to the same emotional response.
There are also multiple factors that can affect both identifying abuse and knowing how to deal with it. First, the ability to pick up on often subtle signals exhibited by abusers, particularly in situations where coercion is used, requires knowledge about what a good healthy relationship looks like. Comments from some of our participants were indicative of victimization beginning early in childhood, perpetrated by parents and caregivers. Abuse from those who are meant to care for us and “know better” can impact on the ability to recognize unacceptable behavior in others later in life.52
Spotting these signals can also rely on not taking people at “face value,” and engaging in continuing reflection on what someone has said or done. For an autistic person who tends to be straightforward in their communication style and who says what they mean, it might not occur that someone they are interacting with is being disingenuous. This can be explained through the lens of the “double empathy problem.”25 The double empathy problem recognizes that difficulties in inferring the intentions of others do not need to be labeled as a social “deficit” or “one sided” to recognize its impact. It is important that we draw upon the double empathy problem to find ways of supporting people who feel they struggle with understanding social intentions without pathologizing this difficulty.
Second, identifying abuse can also be impacted by our perceptions of our own contribution to the situation. Several participants highlighted the experience of gaslighting and invalidation from perpetrators, and this had led some people to question their perception of the situation and blame themselves. This made it harder for them to recognize that what was happening was abusive, and to put a stop to it or leave the situation. Our findings did suggest that a good support network and time/guidance to introspect could be helpful in recognizing abuse.53 This is consistent with research showing the importance of peer support systems47,54 and suggests that it is important to support autistic people in developing good-quality relationships.18
Third, even if someone can identify abusive behavior, this does not always result in knowing what to do about it, or feeling like you have a choice to change the situation, which our findings around compliance (theme 2.3) highlighted. Some participants discussed feeling like they needed to appease perpetrators, or avoid confrontation, which is consistent with previous literature.5,21 However, this was not the only reason for compliance, and the circumstances that contributed toward it were often complex. Some participants complied out of recognition that it was the only way to maintain a semblance of safety within risky situations, for example, having to comply with the demands of others to avoid physical harm. For other participants, power dynamics were present that made the situation they were in more complicated, for example, the perpetrator was a family member.
[...]
A recent study examined the experience of trauma and PTSD symptoms in autistic adults, finding that the experience of “bullying” was one of the common traumatic life events reported by autistic people who had increased PTSD symptoms.48 The authors argue that autistic people may be more likely to experience trauma from events outside of current PTSD diagnostic criteria, which is not unlikely given the sustained stigma that many autistic people experience.63,64 Some of the acts that our participants described as “bullying” and being “taken advantage of” included domestic and sexual abuse, and financial exploitation.
There may be considerations to be made here about the way in which we ask questions about negative life experiences, and how different questions may elicit different responses. The line between abuse, bullying, and more nebulous concepts such as “being taken advantage of” is not particularly clear, and we know that bullying can have incredibly negative effects on an individual.14 However, it is important that future research acknowledges that despite autistic people being labeled as “literal” in their communication, they may downplay their experiences through the terminology they use.
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🪢
[from this meme]
How had it come to this. Why. He stared around the cell, the white walls almost taunting him with their blankness, their sheer open brightness. What need had he of that? What need had he of the light in this single room when the darkness of the dungeon outside was what truly called to him? Any light he might have had in his life was gone. Had been taken, stolen away. And he’d been unable to prevent it.
The furniture was still scattered, toppled from his initial rage, but a cold and pained fury had since replaced that. After all, when he had first been informed of the event it had not been in detail. Odin had seen to it that he’d gotten the story, though. How Frigga had stood in defense of the Midgardian girl his foster brother seemed so taken with. How that action, that deception, had cost her her life. Had cost Loki the one person in Asgard he still cared for, who still cared for him. Had cost him his mother.
Fists clenched as emerald eyes glared around at the smooth white walls. Why were they lit? Why was there any light here? All light was gone, could they not see that? Could they not understand that the one redeemable soul in Asgard was fallen thanks to his brother’s idiotic blindness, his need to have that human girl? Power began swirling around him, reaching the furniture, the glassware, yet strangely leaving the books all but untouched, only their covers and pages moving as if caught in a breeze.
Everything else began swirling around the room, rebounding off the walls, a chaotic maelstrom that went without witness as the rage swept fully through the Jotun-born Asgardian. But there was no sound from his throat. No words, no cry, not even the barest whimper of pain or fury escaped him. He was beyond such sounds, as he was beyond anyone seeing his fall. They would not, of course; he would not let them. Even as the storm had begun an illusion had been sprung to let any onlooker see him reading quietly or pacing in his cell as was often his wont. Within, however, was a much different story.
As the maelstrom began ripping things apart, shards of wood and glass littering the floor of the cell, Loki reached out to take physical part in the destruction. He seized a chair and hurled it at the wall where it shattered, lashed out and broke the table where once he had rested the small collection of books. Gifts from his mother. From the mother who would no longer be able even to look in on him. Finally a cry erupted, a primal scream of fury and pain, the sound of one whose heart had been forcibly torn from his chest.
When the scream had faded, the last echoes dying away in the corners, so too did the maelstrom. The cell was a wreck, ruined furniture and glass shards littering the floor, the walls almost gloatingly unscathed by his wrath, but Loki paid them no mind. He cared not, cared for nothing. For nothing was what he had left. With the loss of Frigga, of the one person he’d been sure he could even remotely call on his side, a void had opened in his life. A void that would never again be filled.
What did the lights of a cell matter?
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