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lemonhemlock · 1 year

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https://twitter.com/Targ_Nation/status/1611158240359759872?t=bfo77HLITj21KBLCUKx6fA&s=19

Seeing all those likes took years off my life

i don't even know where to begin............

"centrist bs" - the concept of left and right doesn't exist in a medieval setting ...................

where was this energy when cersei was committing abuses left and right and placing her bastard children on the throne? why didn't "the modern audience" "almost unanimously stand by the side of the woman being usurped of her throne" back then? 😵

but this isn't even about one side being more wrong than the other or both sides being awful or war being horrible as a rule or the smallfolk always paying with their lives and livelihoods when the high lords play their game of thrones

that entire tweet is predicated on not grasping the basic principles of the polity they are operating within 😫 you cannot define usurpation based on absolute primogeniture when that society relies on male primogeniture for inheritance, in that context it literally means the opposite

words don't somehow gain whatever meaning you want based on what you think is fair, same how laws don't materialize into existence just because you say so. any kind of law is a social construct, doesn't exist outside the confines of society and requires a certain kind of framework in order to be accepted & enforced. if proposed laws are not accepted by the majority and cannot be enforced, they only exist on the astral plane

there aren't even any proper institutions in westeros. literally the only ones i can identify are the crown and the small council, which serves as a kind of proto-government. there's no parliament, there's no proper justice system, no magna charta. the only courts that seem to operate are Faith-based courts and your liege lord's judgment. medieval-style legal systems and law enforcement are headache-inducing as a rule anyway, but feudal monarchies generally involve constant negotiations and power leverages between kings and their vassals

a more apt characterization of the Dance would be what exactly and how much can the targaryens get away with now that they've decided to impose themselves as rulers of a unified westeros. so far, they had to accept the religion of the land (aegon the conqueror was anointed by the high septon) and were forced to renounce polygamy. they got to keep practicing incest as a result of jaehaerys' successful doctrine of exceptionalism. see? negotiation. now the question remains - are they going to respect succession laws like a normal person (i.e. Andal Law) or are they going to resort to this ridiculous circus every time a targaryen monarch dies? because at the point of the dance, there had hardly been a straightforward transition of power since the conquest

for the internal coherence of this fictional world to be maintained, the nobles should be pushing Andal inheritance rights like crazy, because their own succession is decided on the basis of that and they would be directly interested in not fucking it up for themselves or their descendants by having weird precedents set by the royal family. a lot of these lords, if not most, have bastard siblings/children of their own, as well as elder sisters/daughters. it doesn't make sense for them to threaten their own stability for the sake of rhaenyra of all people, who isn't even good at her job and has done absolutely nothing to endear herself to them. what could they possibly gain by supporting her?

the question of the monarch imposing a law is much more believable in a centralized state, which westeros most definitely is not. imposing laws can also be done via force, of course, as long as """the state""" retains the monopoly on violence. the targaryens' v effective military superiority has so far been conferred by dragons. but rhaenyra's side isn't the only one that has dragons anymore. the opposing faction, i.e. the side who'd perpetuate Andal law, also has them now, as it happens. ergo war.

this situation is absolutely not similar in any way to today's democracies where laws are voted by parliament and the rest of the country have no choice but to abide by them or else the police come knocking on your door and hand you over to the our modern justice system, where your punishment is set by objective specialists & not decided by crazy stunts like trial by ordeal or the whims of your liege lord

tldr: there is no incentive for westerosi nobility to break andal succession law for rhaenyra, since it would be legal self-sabotage by setting a precedent that could come to bite those very same people in the a*se. rhaenyra is NOT an only child - by having trueborn brothers, the only way she can ascend is by breaking the laws & customs of the land. ergo disgruntled lords will inevitably flock to alicent's sons to form covert alliances & subversive power centres that, in time, will erupt in open rebellions. real-world historical examples attest to this happening with or without the consent of their respective figureheads (eg. lady jane grey) - i.e. it doesn't matter if aegon/aemond/daeron play happy families or not. in turn, the only way rhaenyra can prevent this is by executing her brothers/their male descendants. the greens don't want to die => the only way of achieving security for them is by claiming the throne.

alternatively, rhaenyra's life is not in danger as long as she bends the knee, as no-one in-universe would take her claim seriously with 3 living brothers. rhaenys also bent the knee to viserys after losing an election and is still alive. i'll say it again: it is not in the lords' best interest to support rhaenyra in the first place. if we are to go by any logic - what would they gain, should they flock to her? they would destabilize the line of succession for themselves for a (pretty terrible) queen, a reviled king consort and a bastard heir. but, as far as advantages and favours are concerned, what would they be, specifically? in order to outweigh the above-mentioned disadvantages?

you should all blame viserys for getting remarried and fathering sons, because had rhaenyra remained an only child or had only sisters, none of this would be happening & she would have become the first ruling queen of westeros

#this is what is meant by the short-hand argument of 'aegon represents stability'#even so this is a simplified view of feudalism & vassalage #but deer lord #the conflict isn't so simple as 'they want to sabotage women no matter what'#even though the very concept of male primogeniture has its roots in sexism no doubt #there's a reason change & improvement occur incrementally #ask #anon #succession for the iron throne #there are scholars who even dispute that 'feudalism' is a thing since different regions had such distinct ways of governing themselves #that there aren't many unifying threads #i am very much the last person who should attempt to explain that #but for the purpose of understanding westeros it is a useful concept #more so bc grrm obviously constructed this world within our basic conceptualization of the middle ages #as is the case with many high fantasy works #which is also why!!!! this world is very stagnant #both socially and technologically speaking there is little progress over thousands of years #obviously that does not happen in real-life scenarios #i also lack specific knowledge of medieval history methodology since my education has centered on IR #and within that field they mainly teach us from westphalia onwards

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rise-my-angel · 3 months

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I really like how in the Modern AU it's not "the characters are in our world" but rather "this is future Westeros where everyone is seemingly reborn". Howland Reed lives in a swamp. Dire wolves are perfectly normal pets. People still use swords because they look cool. But everyone has phones, laptops and cars so it doesn't take days to visit each others houses. I don't know how to explain it but this is exactly the kind of Modern AU I've always wanted. Also, OMG Margaery, hi ~ 💕❤

Trying to come up with the world was actually so much fun! Figuring out what would translate, what wouldn't, how do modern day amenities effect the characters without changing them entierly. The world is what makes the characters the way they are and I wanted to maintain that about them. Which is why highborns are still a thing, but it's more a symbol of very ancient families who were there in the building of the society we recognize as the original series. Why the Wall and the Nights Watch exist but their function isn't the exact same.

It was just so much fun coming up with ways to modernize the world of asoiaf instead of just bringing the characters into our world. It forces me to be a lot more creative in how I go about designing the world building so I'm glad you liked it!

#also i absolutely was going to include margaery i constantly wish i had an excuse to write her #but never did until now and was like BABE ITS YOUR TIME TO SHINE

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sansa286 · 11 months

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Alicent Hightower's Top 3 Placements in Astrology

Alicent Hightower was one of many stand-out characters in House of the Dragon. Like with my Aemond post, I thought it would be interesting to analyze her character through my guesses on what her astrological placements would be for Sun, Moon, and Ascending/rising.

NOTE: I'm not a professional astrologer, I simply love learning about it. This was purely for fun.

Sun Sign

Virgo

Sun sign basics: Your core self, your conscious self. Your initial character and ego.

Virgo sun traits that align with Alicent: Practical, hardworking, dislike for being the center of attention, shy, anxious, critical, responsible, modest, pessimistic and aloof.

A lot of people believe Alicent to be a Virgo, and I am inclined to agree (as a Virgo myself, I see it.) She has this want of being useful that is a key Virgo trait. Before the main events of the series we see it through being a responsible and studious girl. Rhaenyra is clearly the more rebellious of the two as Alicent wants to study while Rhaenyra wants to do anything but. As they make their way through the court Alicent is shyly waving and greeting all the other lords and ladies at, while Rhaenyra makes for a one-track path to her mother. As Queen, her entire existence becomes being useful for the realm, so she provides four children to the King and when he is too sick to do his duties, she steps up, even taking his seat at the Small Council. She doesn't just want to be an ornament to society, she wants to actually be useful and get stuff done. That GIF I chose for this section is the epitome of this aspect of her personality; Alicent and Viserys do not have an amazing relationship in the slightest and truthfully, she has every reason to let him rot after how he treated their children, however out of her sense of duty as his wife (and yes, love) she rushes to help him.

Her practical side comes out in a couple of scenes. The first is the scene with Viserys in Episode 3 when she tells him that in order for Rhaenyra to get on board with getting married, she must choose her husband, and takes a hand in organizing her tour for her. This shows practicality because Alicent knows Rhaenyra would not do well in an arranged marriage (as we come to see later.) The second time it comes out is during her spill to Rhaenys about guiding men in the right direction; Alicent knows as a woman in Westeros her power is limited, but that she has somewhat of a shot at some power through influencing the men in who hold it. While this is completely irrational from a modern-day point of view (and rightly so, you can only influence people who want to be influenced!) by Westerosi standards, this is pretty much the only way women outside of Rhaenyra and a select few others can muster any power. So, while she did demand to be the center of attention at Rhaenyra's wedding during the Green Dress Scene, she is still at her core someone who doesn't mind taking the back seat as long as she has some (or most/all) control.

Moon Sign

Scorpio

Moon sign basics: Your innermost self. It reveals your deepest thoughts, emotions, fears and desires.

Scorpio moon traits that align with Alicent: Intuitive, secretive, strong-willed, vengeful, emotional/sensitive, moody, and truth-seeking.

One of the defining traits of Scorpio moon is a need for deep relationships, and there isn't a single relationship in Alicent's life that isn't meaningful. From her friendship to Rhaenyra, to her strained relationship with Otto, and even Viserys to an extent, there is a lot deeper to it than meets the eye. Can these relationships be a source of stress for Alicent? Sure. But she would rather have meaningful relationships that are a bit touchy than ones that meant nothing at all. Scorpio in moon is a very emotional placement, as the moon-sign is all about your innermost self, and the sign of Scorpio is all about what lies beneath the surface. Alicent may be a person who seems very straightforward and pragmatic, and those are aspects of her personality, but deep down she is craving a life full of meaning and purpose which she is only somewhat fulfilled in by doing her duties as Queen. When Rhaenyra returns, Alicent is so quick to try to mend things just after she apologizes because at the end of the day, she wants that strong connection they used to have back in their youth.

Scorpio moon is also a sign of transformation, which we see throughout the show. Alicent goes from a slightly naive and unassuming girl, to someone who is willing to put up a fight. The beginning of her transformation is believed to be the Green Dress Scene, however I would argue it began when she first got married to Viserys. We see from that point on she gets more politically savvy and willing to learn the ins and outs of power, and use it. She tells Viserys that Rhaenyra must pick her mate if he wants her to get married, which is essentially her leveraging her status as his wife and queen to the benefit of her best friend. We also see this in the scene where she confronts Rhaenyra in front of the Weirwood in Episode 5; granted she was pissed, but she also wanted to help Rhaenyra regardless of what had occurred on Rhaenyra's night out. In true Scorpio fashion, what ends up upsetting Alicent the most about the situation is that Rhaenyra lied, not the situation itself. The Green Dress Scene is significant because it marks a turning point for Alicent in the astrological sense - beforehand she did not like the attention that came with being queen, but now she's demanding it for the first time.

In later years we see just how vindictive Alicent has become through demanding to see Joffrey once he's fresh out of the womb, thus denying Rhaenyra proper time with her newborn infant, and through instilling fear in her children over the prospect of Rhaenyra being heir. We also see a much more strong-willed Alicent that completes this arc in Episode 9 when she not only confronts her father over his wrongdoings, but sets the stage for Aegon's coronation on her terms, not Otto's. This could also be read as revenge for Otto and the Small Council going behind her back for the greater part of a decade, scheming to put Aegon on the throne without her; while they might have won the battle, the moment Criston and Aemond snatched Aegon up, Alicent won the war.

Rising Sign

Cancer

Ascending/rising sign basics: What you present yourself as. What first impression you make. Your appearance.

Cancer ascending traits that align with Alicent: Protective, sympathetic, hypersensitive, devoted

Cancer in astrology represents the mother archetype which is what Alicent tries to project once she becomes queen. You could argue even before as that was essentially what she was expected to become: a mother, per Westerosi expectations for women and also her devout practice to the Faith with the Mother as the main female archetype that is prayed to.

Aegon, Helaena, and Aemond are all born relatively soon after each other. Alicent knows that part of her role in the Hightower's plot to gain power in King's Landing is by being the perfect queen and mother to the potential heirs to the Iron Throne. She devotes herself to her children, albeit in different ways to Rhaenyra. Despite not finding her hobby particularly interesting, Alicent still listens to Helaena go on about insects and doesn't block her from pursuing her interests. She stands up for Aemond on multiple occasions, and while Aegon is...well Aegon, she still loves him, and on top of that, loves him enough to keep trying to correct his behavior. While she's not as doting of a mother as Rhaenyra, Alicent does love her children dearly and everything she does is to protect them.

Another scene that depicts this archetype is the controversial one with Dyana. She embraces her as a mother would comforting her daughter, and there has been so much analysis on how Alicent sees herself in Dyana as yet another girl taken advantage of by the men around her. It must be emphasized that Alicent very well could have Dyana executed for speaking the truth about Aegon, and there are some queens that definitely would have (Cersei, Visenya, etc...) however she instead gives her moon tea (while ambiguous, Dyana was barely a teenager and should not be forced to carry her assaulter's baby) and gives her money. Very much hush-money as we see in the rest of the thinly veiled threat, but money that Dyana can use to start a new life in a place where Aegon can never hurt her again. I got the sense that Alicent wished that someone had done the same for her when she was trapped: give her a means to escape. Maybe with a princess on dragonback or maybe with a sack of pity money, but escape nonetheless.

Finally, part of fulfillment for a Cancer ascending with her Virgo-need to be helpful is through familial deeds and nurturing those they care about. Alicent spends most of her life caring for her ailing husband even up to his deathbed and last breath. Viserys's health is of a constant concern to her, and even in her early days as queen she would excuse the chamber maids to bathe him herself. She gets Aegon together for his coronation, and well, we all know how much of a wreck he is. To a lesser extent we see this side of her with Rhaenyra in their youth when she makes sure that Rhaenyra knows her studies. In a sense, Alicent's way of expressing love is through these deeds.

#alicent hightower #alicent #house of the dragon #hotd #a song of ice and fire #asoiaf #astrology #zodiac placements #sun signs #moon signs #rising signs #ascendant signs #zodiac signs

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horizon-verizon · 1 year

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Aemond is one of the most popular characters of HOTD I don't think they are failing at anything. And why can't a teenage guy be stupid?

*EDITED POST* (12/22/23)

"Boys will be boys".

Because that teenager is equipped with a dragon and the privilege to use it during a war with little real check on his behavior, and he relies on his own moral gauge. In Aemond's case, we know rests on sexism, high violence, genocidal tendencies, etc. bc the society he lives in grants more moral allowances to men/boys over girls/women.

Aemond is given the responsibilities/abilities of a present-day Western male adult and is treated as a full-grown adult. Why? In Westeros, the age of majority is 16 -- boy or girl. That means the moment you are 16, you become a full adult (even though both can get married earlier).

Aemond surpasses this age by episode 10. That means that he has more power than a modern, Western 16 year old boy. He has an adult's power, and an adult's responsibility.

This is a feudal society where noble/royal teen boys and young men like Aemond are given weapons and trained to kill/lead armies from an even younger age, which is partly why Lucerys even had a knife back in episode 7.

If he truly is “philosophical” and reads such books, he would not have even chased Lucerys and should have developed some self control/understanding how to pick his battles.

Aemond:

was militarily trained and very good at killing/combat

can and will be given authority to move whole armies

is hateful of a particular set of his family

believes his manhood gives him inherent rights and privileges over women or those lesser in station

rides a flying war machine (that he can’t control, why not, after years of riding Vhagar? because he can’t control himself at the very moment when he should have and was entrusted with bringing in Borros, not being the one to start the war as Otto/Alicent did not want [a strategy of image for the Greens]?)

very, too proud to be a man with near-absolute privilege and authority (the canon Aemond)

Point is that Aemond is given so much more power and is more dangerous than any teen boy you have ever comes across.

Daemon was also 16 when he married Rhea Royce, and he was considered a full adult then as well. However, like all adults of that time, he cannot go against the orders of his queen or king to marry someone he dislikes unless he is fine with exile, execution (if a monarch can find opportunity), or be socially ostracized and deprived of amenities and/or privileges. So for Daemon there is an actual element of helplessness there, while Aemond comparatively has/had always room as Viserys never forces him to do something he doesn't want to do that isn't justified. Before he bonded and claimed Vhagar, Aemond was not unfairly treated or bullied like in HotD, by anyone. And afterwards, he still enjoys the privileges of a prince/male. He had no right (other than the patriarchal oppressive kind) to make Alys Rivers his war prize/sex slave, kill a slew of both children and adult men in the Strong genocide, or flame large sections of the riverlands [more children]; all done when he is 19. Tese are not acts you should pass off as the acts of "a stupid teenage guy", anon. There is no room for that. This all comes from patriarchal, blood purist, classist, dehumanizing entitlement.

"Popularity" does not equal or automatically mean "well-written" or “innocuous”. Popular just means “liked by many” without bringing context, and background information/context changes a lot.

The show version of Aemond is popular for these main reasons:

Some people perceive him as sympathetic character, like you, because of the bullying, presumably for being dragonless by age 11-13 (which never happens nor could reasonably happen in the book/canon lore) and somehow “pure” victims make good characters (spoiler alert: they do not).

His mother, Alicent, is actually the one people like, sing the praises of, or feel represent them and how life never goes their way, boohoo (meanwhile you have power, use it!) and Aemond is made into this person who protects Alicent from harm. Meanwhile, canon Aemond was a misogynist (even against his own mother[as if misogynists men weren’t always automatically hateful of their mothers in many ways]) psychopath only ever out for himself who did many, many heinous things that I will not spoil for you.

He has been rewritten to be a lot more self controlled than he ever was, so he seems like a suave, amazing warrior with the poise of a “true” prince to some viewers.

The actor is very physically attractive and the wig they have for him is silky and better than most of the wigs there.

Or people actually are that misogynist, classist, and think in blood purity language where how you are born or what is in your “blood” defines who and what you are....forever. Thus Aemond is “relatable” and useful for them. To emphasize how he “loses” so much to the evil slut Rhaenyra. Like what THIS lovely user said in another ask to me.

"Boys will be boys"....is this what you say?

As I already said, Aemond is a misogynist and was encouraged to think himself superior and more deserving than the entire female portion of humanity, especially Rhaenyra and thus who do not conform their behavior or appearance to the feudal patriarchal values of female chastity and "purity". He is not just a "stupid teen". He knew what he was doing at all times and continued because he felt like it or because he felt he was justified.

To change this is to fuck up and reduce the Dance's inherent injustice towards Rhaenyra and the very idea of female rulers/leaders, because that a what the Dance is thematically about.

I would say that the writers have failed to impart the message of the Dance itself and bring the characters and themes to heir true selves. They succeeded in hooking a lot of people through the marketing strategies of misplaced representation, the chemistry between Emma D’Arcy-Olivia Cooke, the beauty of the sets and costumes, etc.

However, the meaning of the Dance, its focus on how patriarchy and one woman’s internalized misogyny ruins basically the fates of Westerosi women everywhere and from then on, is totally lost because the show refuses to hold Alicent and Aemond accountable for said hatred for people they do not think “deserve” a king/royal privileges because one’s a woman, the others are all children not born to a married couple.

The Greens = Misogyny/male privilege, classism, and blood purity.

It is because Alicent, Otto, and the others usurped Rhaenyra that the Targ dynasty (of which Aemond is a part of) also lose their dragons until Daenerys “Stormborn” restores them 8 whole generations later. And again, women in Westeros collectively paid the price at Rhaenyra’s loss.

Now, you should have read the article by Seth I linked above, but if you haven’t here are some parts of his review:

AND

Seth is saying that for Ryan to say that we can’t possibly ever find judgement in a person like Aemond.

But we can, and we should, or we will justify and normalize misogyny, homophobia, racism, etc. at a time where people watching should feel these things’ inherent evil now. You can’t excuse misogyny in a young boy no matter how young. You excuse classism in an 11 year old girl.

You rather need to snuff those things out before that child becomes a hateful person like Cersei and Robert Baratheon.

But Alicent didn’t. She and Aemond both cultivate it. And that is where Ryan Condal show his green hat. (Aside from so much more, like Rhaenicent).

It is rather because Aemond and the show is so popular -- able to reach so many people -- that it both angers and worries me over how people can be so shallow or shortsighted about these things.

#aemond targaryen #aemond's characterization #hotd critical #hotd comment #alicent hightower #alicent's characterization #westerosi age of majority #hotd characterization #hotd #asoiaf

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winterrose527 · 1 year

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"help, i'm in love with my brother's boring wife" <- tell me what you would do with this AU???

Look all I'm going to say is that YOU brought up Jon Snow & Jeyne Westerling (no offense Jeyne, you seem generally fine) the other day as a potentially good angst pairing. So like hmm... let's see.

So modern AU, let's go political animals. Robb was on track to become the youngest senator Westeros had ever had. Things are bad in Westeros, which explains why he is 'in bed' with people two years ago he never would have so much as had dinner with. Walder Frey is Walder Frey and oh so subtly pushes him and his daughter together, and Robb is looking like he is going to win it all with Roslin Frey at his side who is actually lovely but he can't even look at her because every time he does he sees Walder fucking Frey.

Enter Jeyne Westerling. She's a low level staffer on his campaign (she got the job through 'connections' and I'll just let everyone deduce who was behind that). She's gentle and efficient and there's lots of late nights and take out and one thing leads to another.

Now all of this would be generally fine, in fact Jeyne had assured Robb that it didn't need to be a thing at all, except he kind of sort of wants it to be a thing because holy shit the seedy underbelly of Westerosi society is really getting to him and he sees Jeyne as his way out and sure maybe it kind of sort of makes him feel things that aren't quite there.

So somehow or another it's leaked to the press.

Frey pulls his backing, Roslin is the most sought after interview in all of Westeros and Robb's political career is over before it begins.

That's fine with him. For a time. After a while though he begins to have regrets. He doesn't blame Jeyne, he knows it was his decision to pursue her and his decision to let it derail him, but even still she's a reminder of what he gave up. It doesn't help that now Westeros is in even worse shape and there's nothing he can do about it because no one will take him seriously. The private sector still loves him and doesn't have the same qualms about infidelity as voters so he is doing just fine for himself, but still feels that sense of failure.

Enter Jon Snow.

While Robb was pursuing high office, Jon was in the military. He had a wild ride of it, but distinguished himself from a young age and rose through the ranks in spite of some very unhelpful superiors and a fuck up or two.

He gets discharged on medical, a horrible wound to his arm that won't quite heal and a long recovery ahead.

Robb offers him his and Jeyne's guest house while he's getting back on his feet.

Jon and Jeyne have met before over the years when he was on leave, and he'd always thought her dull as dishwater. He couldn't understand how his brother gave up a political career for her when there was so much work to be done.

When he was on tour, he had some ill-fated romances with less than good women who were all very intoxicating and beguiling but in the end not worth the angst.

Now he's home. He isn't old but he feels it. He is used to his body doing exactly what he wants it to at all times and now he finds himself having to get used to this new normal, having to rely on the generosity of someone that he resents because of the opportunities wasted.

Enter Jeyne.

Jeyne who suffered more than Robb did, because the woman always does. Who can't apply for a job without someone saying hey how do I know your name? because they never left the north. So she works from home part time and feels listless and bored and wishing that Robb would just call it, because she can't, because she still loves him in a way she isn't sure he ever actually fell in love with her.

When Jon comes home, she finds that thing that made her want to get out of bed in the morning during the campaign, a sense of purpose. She realizes that yes, she misses her affectionate husband, but more than that she misses feeling accomplished in her own right.

Jon resists at first, not wanting her company or her help, but slowly she wears him down and they start spending more time together, as she drives him to PT etc.

He realizes that she's not dull, she's quiet. That she's not foolish, she just follows her heart. He sees the girl who everyone said ruined Robb Stark's chances, and wonders - and is maybe the first to do so - what potential she never reached because of it all.

He fights his feelings, but he is having an effect on her. She stops asking herself whether Robb is happy and starts asking herself whether she is.

One night, Robb is working home late. She's made dinner for him but it's growing cold, so she asks Jon to come over. He tries to resist but there's something in her eyes - a shade of brown he'd never realized could be so pretty - that makes him accept.

When they get into the kitchen, he sees a nearly finished bottle of red and she sort of looks at him and looks away and gestures to the set table and says: some of it went in the sauce.

They sit down and eat and she is clearly tipsy and sad and he's trying to make her feel better and he's cracking jokes. She had never realized that he was funny, and no one had ever told him that he was.

It all could be innocent, except it's not. They know it isn't. If it was, it wouldn't be so awkward when Robb comes home and finds them sitting there together.

He gets himself a plate, and tries to make conversation with Jon, and Jeyne feels more ignored than she does when they're alone, because Jon is there and he's seeing it and she knows it.

And anyway it ends with the three of them sitting there. The one brother who gave up everything and said it was for her, and the one who felt like he'd lost everything until he met her.

#everyone in this is unlikeable #except Jeyne I guess

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cjbolan · 1 year

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Do you think Aurora was considered the queen during her and Neptune’s marriage? I know a queen is technically just the wife of a monarch, but I’m not sure how the merpeople would feel having a human as their queen. I know in the Castle in the Mist Shona mentions learning about Aurora in history class, so I wonder if she’s regarded as Neptune’s random human wife from long ago or as the/a queen of the seas. Also based on Neptune’s character and the fact that he had a castle built for her I feel like he would want to give her a royal title lmao.

That's a really good question!!! Don't know yet, I just started Book 7 which I'm told is more about Aurora. She hasn't come up in the book yet (I only read the first 2 chapters), so I guess I'll find out real soon. Being treated like a queen doesn't always mean ruling as queen...

Honestly, I'm not sure the merpeople would accept even a mermaid as their queen. Because so far this series show only merman kings, but no mermaid queen. In Book 5 King Neptune does say: "My parents ruled the seas back then." But Neptune gives no specifics about his mother, and talks only about his father's power and influence. So I get the feeling Neptune's mother had a lot less political influence. Or zero political influence and she was just a Queen Consort rather than a ruling queen. I think in merpeople society, queens have no ruling power and their only purpose is to get married and have babies. Just like Westeros. And the real world at large.

I say all this because these merpeople are VERY gender-rigid. First off they allow absolutely no females in politics. Everyone we see working for King Neptune is male (Beeston Archie, Seth, eventually Jake). In Neptune's courtroom , the only mermaids we see are a secretary and some witnesses, while the trial itself is conducted by all mermen. You could play a drinking game counting each time they say "...Mr. [insert mermaid-sounding name]..." during that courtroom scene . Also this caused the whole conflict between Emily's parents in Book 3 -- her mom clearly hates the merpeople’s forced traditional gender roles for females.

Mary: "Yes, Emily's coming along in leaps and bounds in ... Hair Braiding for Modern Mermaids. I mean!"

Mary: "...you may be happy for your daughter to learn nothing more than how to brush her hair nicely and tell the time by looking at the clouds, I'd like my daughter to get a real education."

Mary: "What do I do all day? Sunbathe, comb my hair, maybe go to synchro swim a couple times a week. This isn't a life for me, Jake. I want more than this."

Jake: "I'll get [Emily] a hairbrush, a whole set of hairbrushes..." Mary: "Or a ruler and a dictionary."

(Emily Windsnap and the Castle in the Mist)

Granted mermaid school does teach other things that become important later. It’s the mandatory haircare that particularly pisses off Mary.

Wonder how much the movie version will delve into this. And I noticed something similar in Avatar 2.

TLDR; mermaid politics is a sausage fest XD.

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esther-dot · 3 years

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"We should be happy that Arya understands herself at such a young age. It baffles me that her fans want to insist that no, she actually wants the same stuff Sansa does..." This is what gets me. Arya point blank states in Book 1 what she wants and what she doesn't want. Now their argument is "She is 9, she may change her mind." She might, if she were a real person. But she is a character written by someone else. And if the author specifically says he based the character on the type of women he knew irl, the kind of women who never wanted to marry and have kids, that's a pretty good indication where this character is going. I also find it insulting that they are so gung-ho about this, as if they tie all of Arya's value (especially her value as a woman) her being married with kids at the end. (As someone who, like Arya at a young age, decided to never marry and have kids and in her 30s still stand by that decision, it's extremely amusing -and offensive but oh well- to me that they think Arya needs to end up Gendry/Jon and pop out as many kids as possible for her arc to be meaningful, for her life to be complete. They see it as the final and most valued reward for her suffering, I guess, even if she doesn't want it.) But there is also the fact that unlike them, Arya is aware of what being a mother and a wife means in Westeros. She can't have it all. She can't be a wife, a mother, a Lady and be free, not really. She can't be independent, go on adventures, live her life as she wishes to, associate and befriend the people she'd like to, avoid others she doesn't like. Especially if she is going to be Arya Stark. That'll come with its own responsibilities. She has to make a choice. (And again this is a choice I understand, b/c while it's not as stifling as Westeros, my country and culture is very much traditional, they may let you be a single adult woman *while side-eying your choice* but you can't be a wife and a mother and an independent working woman at the same time. Society, your family and friends will expect you to make a choice, even the laws will force your hand as there are little to none help for working moms but all sorts of incentives for those who uphold "family values".) So even if what they envision for Arya could work for Modern AUs, it doesn't work in Westeros, it's simply unfeasible for canon. I guess I really don't understand that section of Arya stans. Why they are trying to mold her into someone she isn't and doesn't want to be? It's as ridiculous as it would be if we were to insist Sansa will learn sword-fighting, she'll defeat Lannisters/Boltons/Others/Littlefinger/Dny&her dragons on the battlefield, she'll never want to marry or have kids, she would prefer if she spent her life traveling free from societal restrictions instead of settling in canon etc. It's just so weird.

(continuation of this convo)

I don’t have much to add because you said it all! What you’re talking about is almost exactly what Martin mentioned in the quote I referenced:

Q: Was there anyone in your life who might’ve served as an inspiration for Arya? A: I can’t say there’s any one specific model, but a lot of the women I’ve known over the years have had aspects of Arya with them. Especially some of the women I knew when I was a young man back in the ’60s and ’70s, you know — the decade of the sexual revolution and the feminist movement. I knew a lot of young women who weren’t buying into the, “Oh, I have to find a husband and be a housewife.”

That’s certainly part of Arya’s thing. There’s that scene where Ned is telling her, “Well, one day you’ll grow up and you’ll marry a great lord and you’ll be the lady of the castle.” And she says, “No, I won’t. I don’t want that. That’s Sansa, that’s not me.” I knew women who were saying things like that: “I don’t wanna be Mrs. Smith, I wanna be my own person.” (link)

Martin is talking about how society is demanding something of Arya that she has no intention of bending to in contrast to Sansa:

Sansa completely bought into that, loved everything about that. She dreamed of jousts, bards singing of her beauty, fair knights, being the mistress of a castle and perhaps a princess and queen. The whole romantic thing.

And then to have Arya, a girl who did not fit that — and who, from the very beginning, was uncomfortable and chafes at the roles that she was being pushed into.

Of course, Arya is young, will still be young at the end of the books, so in her future, in an epilogue or in our imaginations, it’s easy to assume there will be lovers/partners. In all honesty, I did think that Martin was laying groundwork for something between her and Gendry in the future, but even so, the idea that she would suddenly conform, settle down and be what she so vehemently rejected, it feels like a cruel joke for someone like her. Why would we want her to essentially say, “Oh, I was wrong. Society was right all along. This is what all women should be.” What a gross sentiment. I assume that that is not the exact thought process of her stans who wish her to settle down, but the idea as presented in canon is that being a lady has demands. That role would require Arya to be stifled, folded in on herself, and I would never wish that on her. I can’t reconcile loving Arya and also wanting her to just...give in. That idea makes me incredibly sad. The same kind of sad as Sansa never experiencing romantic love. I want both girls to be emotionally fulfilled and that means entirely different things for each of them imo.

#ask dot

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awed-frog · 6 years

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Hey! I vaguely remember that you are a GoT fan (correct me if I'm wrong) and I've just gotten into the show. I was wondering whether or not you read Dany as a queer character? I keep getting that vibe from her, but I'm not sure how to articulate why I feel that way. Feel free not to answer this if you don't want to discuss it, since I know your blog isn't really focused on GoT.

Hi there! Yes, I do like GoT and my short answer would have to be, you probably read Dany as queer because she sleeps with women in the books and they left some of it in the subtext, but I don’t know if I see Dany as a queer character.

Long(er) answer - and this is just a feeling I have, because I’ve seen the series and read the books but I’m not an expert of anything, so I could be dead wrong - my reading of sexuality in that world is that the Seven Kingdoms are a bit like us, while the other people are a bit like ancient people? What I mean is, Westeros was famously inspired by the War of the Roses, and how characters behave sexually seems to conform to that period. You’ve got someone like Sansa, who’s destined to be a king’s wife and will be a virgin when she marries; someone like Jon, a second son who’ll be shipped out to the army (or, well, to a freakish cult) and is almost encouraged to have sex with any woman who’ll have him; and someone like Ned, happily married and yet (allegedly) sleeping around on campaign, and nobody is really weirded out at all. And sure, it depends who you ask, but in Westeros, sex is not really painted in the best of lights. I seem to remember other characters being all disapproving of Tyrion’s love of prostitutes, for instance (and of course, what’s specifically horrifying is that he pays them well and respects them and even falls in love with them). An open enjoyment of sex is also part of the reason why Westerosi aristocracy turns its nose up at Oberyn and his retinue. And then there’s people like Loras and Renly - they’re too important to be beaten up in the streets, but nobody is all that accepting of their behaviour (‘pillow-biter’ it’s what Loras is called). So this is Westeros. As for the other people, it’s not like we were given a thorough exploration of their sexual or religious mores, but it’s made abundantly clear that those are a bit laxer than they are in Westeros. The Targaryens marry their siblings (like the Egyptian pharaohs). The Dornish are sort of openly bisexual (more or less like people in Rome and Greece - although, that’s also partly a myth). Xaro, the one character we met from Qarth, is gay (he proposes to Dany, but is also very clear that he has little interest in her body).

So, well - that said, I always read Dany as someone who has an ‘ancient’ view on sexuality. Both in the books and in the show, she is shown to have a clear interest in men - it’s men she thinks about, and it’s men she falls in love with - but in the books, she will sometimes summon as (female) servant and have sex with her. To me, that doesn’t make her bi in the modern sense of the world, because those encounters are not about desire, exactly - they’re more about comfort, about finding some peace and zone out for a while. If you look at a ‘finishing school’ for girls in ancient Greece, like the one Sappho headed, you’ll see what I mean: we’re reasonably sure many girls there must have experimented with each other, but they also did so because it was a social costume and because - in this brutally segregated society - they would always have a deeper bond with another woman than they would ever had with a man (in Greece, a high-born a woman didn’t have male friends; she couldn’t even talk to a man who wasn’t a relative, and even those meetings - with brothers and cousins - were strictly regulated). The prospect of marrying was, no doubt, in equal parts exciting and completely terrifying, and sex was also both dreaded and anticipated - not only because sex with an older, and generally unknown, man could be painful and unpleasant, but also because of the dangers associated with pregnancy. So that’s one of the reasons girls had sex with one another, just like men did (as weird as it seems, they had the same problem, specifically a lifetime of being tied to a person they had nothing in common with - not a partner, but often a half child they had to instruct on everything). And just like it happened to the men, I have no doubt some girls were what we’d consider ‘gay’ in today’s society - that is, they actively enjoyed having sex with people of their own gender and endured, or avoided, sex with the other gender - but other girls were probably not; these were girls who - like Dany - would actually prefer a man’s body, and obsess over a man’s love, and would only initiate or accept sex with a woman because it felt nice. For us, after twenty centuries of Christianity, is almost impossible to fathom how flexible people used to be, but other societies, like Dorne or wherever, probably don’t see sex (and your choice of sexual partners) as that big a deal. Like, I was reading a book by Roman emperor Marcus Aurelius the other day, and at one point he says he’s happy he never had sex with Benedicta or Theodotus - not because Theodotus was a boy, and not because they both were slaves, and therefore could not give consent - but simply because Marcus was a Stoic, and considered sex as something to be avoided or enjoyed in strict moderation. ‘I thank the gods’, he says, ‘that I kept the flower of my innocence and did not play a man’s part until the right age or even rather later; and that, when I did feel erotic passion, I was cured of this’.

Anyway - I hope that made some kind of sense? If you’d like to know how the characters’ sexuality in the show compare with the books and who is ‘canonically’ queer, you can have a look at this article (warning: contains spoilers).

#ask #got #daenerys targaryen #lgbt representation #ancient rome #ancient greece #anyway #what's actually true #is that millennials and gen z #seem to be a lot more flexible than their parents #(at least in the western world)#which i welcome #a lot #let's hope we'll see more of that in the future

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