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sunset-telepath · 3 years

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Why I hate Ro

So, I was asked to explain why I hate Ro. And I’ve been compilating several arguments that I’ve heard and written myself. And I’d like to put a disclaimer here - it’s not because she’s this “sokeefe idol.” It’ just... her character and what she does in support of sokeefe.

Disclaimer: I’m condensing several conversations that I, JaxTheShade, and [Redacted due to them not wanting to be credited] had on the wiki about a month ago. Around 40% of these ideas are mine, 40% are Jax’s, and 20% are [Redacted]’s.

Right off the bat, she’s a misandrist. She quite literally calls boys as stupid as amoeba in Legacy. You can say that that was a joke, but it’s not funny. It’s not okay to blatantly call anyone or generalize any group stupid. It’s not ok. It’s the exact same thing as saying that women belong in the kitchen or that blacks are criminals. It’s not ok. It’s disgusting, despicable, and repugnant behavior.

In the Flashback Short Story, she objectifies Sophie as a prize for Fitz and Keefe to fight over. What the actual f***. That is not acceptable behavior under any circumstances. It’s repugnant, disgusting, detestable, and f****** evil. Treating any person as a prize to fight over is textbook objectification and it is blatantly evil. It is not ok. And it’s disgusting that this narrative has leaked into some of the fanfics that I’ve read. THIS IS NOT ACCEPTABLE UNDER ANY CIRCUMSTANCES. IT IS NOT EXCUSABLE. IT IS EVIL.

She flat out bullies Fitz. She alludes to him being a nasty microbe in Legacy. She ridicules his desire to perfect himself. There is nothing wrong with being or trying to be perfect. Don’t push yourself too hard trying to be perfect, but if you should always strive to be better (and if you’re naturally talented like Fitz is, achieve your dreams. Fulfill your potential. Ignore the haters). She mocks and bullies him, calling him names and ridiculing his desire to be perfect. Newsflash: There’s nothing wrong with trying to be perfect. Who the hell is Ro to decide how perfect someone can be? Who the hell does Ro think she is? As a perfectionist myself, I despise Ro and her adversity to perfection. It’s not her place to decide how perfect a person can be. I admire Fitz simply shrugging her off and not letting her flat-out abuse get to him. It’s the proper way to deal with people like her.

Her entire character can be summed up as a chronic-complainer who ships Sokeefe. Shannon basically turned the Instagram Fandom into a character and made it Keefe’s Bodyguard. She never confesses to making mistakes and she’s never humbled or knocked down a peg. 30% of her dialogue can be attributed to complaining about sparkles or “elf-land,” 20% of it can be attributed to her flat-out bulling Fitz, and 50% of it can be attributed to her pushing Sophie and Keefe together. None of the characters like her. The other bodyguards detest her, Bo wants to kill her, Fitz thinks that she’s awful, Sophie is embarrassed by her, and Keefe wants her to shut her mouth.

She’s blunt, she’s rude, and she’s just awful. She interferes with a relationship that is none of her business. She has no regard for the emotional abuse that she inflicts. Ro and Keefe are very similar, and clash often. Ro always wins, however, either because she’s stronger than him or because she can emotionally manipulate him. (These sound like big claims now, but they’re backed up later)

Ro dismisses Sophie by saying that “blondie doesn’t know what she feels.” And it’s disgusting. She’s objectified by “blondie” - a term focused on Sophie’s appearance rather than by her personality. She’s Sophie Elizabeth Foster, not “blondie.” She dismisses Sophie as naïve and disregards her feelings by saying that Sophie’s doesn’t know what Sophie feels.

~The Following Section was directly quoted from JaxTheShade because he summarized it so well~

Well...no, Ro. She does have an idea of what she feels. In fact, she was ecstatic and perfectly fine with dating and eventually sorting out her issues with Fitz until you started "hinting" about Keefe. Sophie does understand her feelings - and those feelings led her to Fitz. And even if she does have some underlying issue about who she likes (which has admittedly been hinted at), it's up to her to figure it out. Not a brash ogre bodyguard who scoffs at the notion of the Elvin culture and thinks she has a right to intrude in a teenage relationship she isn't apart of.

And Fitz...well, I'm sure Ro doesn't hate him. But she's pretty close to--that's not hard to deduce. Because Ro has ever bothered to pay attention to and sympathize with Keefe ( and yet she still finds a way to neglect his feelings ), she hasn't the slightest inclination of who Fitz is. So, like most people, she decides to consider him "the opposing candidate" in the love triangle and never look past the surface of Fitz, just calling him "Captain Perfect" and thinking that he could never be right for Sophie because he's competing against Keefe.

Sometimes I wish someone, anyone, would call Ro out for amount of sheer insults she layers on Fitz, whether he's there or not. Although most of the time it's done behind his back--what a surprise.

I mean, look at this:

She slyly calls him a 'nasty microbe'. And while some have argued that she wasn't calling Fitz this, she was very clearly expressing her disdain for Sophie's favourite colour being teal--and, by proxy, calls teal things 'nasty'.

“[...] But I thought it was only right to save your imp from being sparkle-fied—and I was going to be nice and turn him your favorite color. But apparently your favorite color is teal—and yeah, yeah, we all know why. But, um, do you realize how many of the nastiest little microbes are that color?” She shuddered. “I couldn’t do that to you—or the little dude. [...]”

Ro also calls him "Captain Perfectpants" and openly admits that Fitz would have problems with all the time Sophie is spending with Keefe. Essentially admitted but disregarding how upset Fitz would be--because who cares about Fitz's feelings when Keefe is having emotional turmoil? And as a little bonus, she also pulls her classic, "I can't take this anymore! I simply have to intervene in this situation of which I'm not apart of!

"Ro snorted. “Of course he would! He’d be super, super jealous!”

“Don’t,” Keefe told her.

“No—I can’t take it anymore!” Ro stalked toward Sophie and tapped her on the nose with a calloused fingertip. “I repeat: Yes, your Captain Perfectpants would be jealous! He scraped together the courage to get all share-y about his feelings, and now you’re ignoring him, and being all mysterious about why, and telling everyone who asks that you’re not dating him. And I’m not saying that’s a bad call. Trust your instincts! Hopefully they’ll lead you out of the oblivion. But in the meantime, count on your teal-eyed Wonderboy feeling a little insecure, particularly if he finds out you’re spending lots of quality time with other dudes. And you know what? That’s good for him. We all know that boy could use a little help in the humility department. So make him sweat a little. And you”—she spun back toward Keefe—“need to stop being so afraid.”

And those are just two instances, of which I can search for plenty more.

Ro is not a good person. She's a rebellious princess who ultimately works for her own gain. She thinks she's got it all figured out with Keefe, and decides that, since he shared his story of liking Sophie, she'll take it upon herself to get them together no matter what.

And I mean 'no matter what'. She has put down Sophie for liking Fitz, interrupted conversations so she can drop hints about Keefe's feelings against his will, and made fun of Sophie for being oblivious--even going to the extent of getting fed up with and blaming Sophie for her oblivion "becoming less and less cute".

She's also tried to actively break up Sophitz and push together Sophie and Keefe. She's insulted Fitz and holds a very hostile disposition towards him simply because he's "perfect boy" who's against the Saint Also Known As Keefe. Ro tries to subtly force Sophie's feelings for Fitz out of her while dropping in some "isn't Hunkyhair so great?". I wouldn't for a second put it past her to succeed in shutting down as many Sophitz moments as possible all so she can continue to ignore the pleas to stop and the embarrassed faces surrounding her.

And her excuse?

"It's the only fun she gets to have here in Elf Land".

She isn't apart of this relationship. She isn't affected by this relationship. She's only seen one side of this relationship, and uses that to base her opinions of the other two. Which is a terrible idea considering that leads to opinions like "Okay, well that other boy is awful because he's the competitor, and that girl must like the boy because the boy likes her, and sometimes she acts shy around him, and that's totally how relationships work".

Ro has absolutely no excuse for the amount of hurt she's inflicted on all three of these teenagers.

And yet she's regarded as a saint amongst all, while people like...say, Alden ( who made mistakes, but ultimately went about it in a calmer, gentler, and more well meaning way--as well as having much more justification and reasoning behind his actions ) are seen as evil and deserving of death. So what's the difference? Is it just because Ro is all for Sokeefe and Alden is really pushing for Sophitz? Have we really sunk low enough to the point where we can adore one character and hate another--despite performing the same actions--simply because of shipping preferences?

Everyone has decided to hate Alden because he showed up to speak with Keefe, ended up getting sidetracked and talking about relationships ( because of Ro, go figure ), sympathized with Keefe and shared meaningful advice from personal identical experiences, and then making sure Keefe knew that he considered him apart of the family.

That was what Alden did. And we have absolutely no reason to believe that Alden was anything but genuine when he stated that he "long considered him part of the family".

And yet Ro is the one who starts ranting about how "he didn't mean it" ( and saying something like that to a teenage boy who never felt loved by his father means a lot--but Ro has to ruin it and say that Alden's words were "a stinking load of garbage" ). Ro is the one whose objectification of the triangle by saying that Keefe being there for his friends is "sabotage" is what sparks Keefe to tell her that Sophie's feelings do matter. Ro is the one who interrupts every conversation by either stating her obnoxious opinion that nobody asked for, or calling a time out so she can bash on Fitz again. Ro is the one who has spent every waking moment since she arrived in the series either making Keefe's desire to be happy for his friends feel invalid, insulting Sophie because she's her own person with her own feelings for someone else, and coming up with every insult under the sun to throw at Fitz. Ro is the one who has no justification for her actions, seeing as she a) is not apart of this triangle, and b) has minimal relationship experience considering both her boyfriends hate her, and one was an arranged marriage.

But...Ro is also the loved and appreciated one.” - JaxTheShade (I’ve been paraphrasing some of the things that he’s said all ready, but I’m directly quoting him for this. His statement is direct and gets to the point)

~End of direct Quote~

I'd like to make one thing clear though - the point of selfishness. There's a stigma to the word that I'd like to clear up, because there are two types of selfishness, rational self-interest, and sacrificing others for yourself.

Fitz is the first type - he has a rational self-interest, he's looking out for himself and his own long-term happiness first. There is nothing wrong with that, if you won't look out for yourself, who will? It's why I completely supported Fitz yelling and breaking up with Sophie - if a relationship is making you unhappy long-term, it is in your best interest to break up with them. It's why Fitz was so adamant about finding Sophie's biological parents, he wanted to avoid future stigma, gossiping, and heckling. Fitz knows how horrible these things are to experience, and so sought to avoid them in the future. This is why Fitz is my favorite character - the others are reactive, Fitz seems to be the only proactive one. (One of the few characters in any literature to be proactive, in fact). While Sophie and the others look at the now and the immediate future, Fitz is concerned with the long-term future, a trait I share with him and one that I rarely see in literature whatsoever, to my vast disappointment.

Ro isn't selfish at all. She's much, much worse - she doesn't meddle in other's affairs for her own happiness, she just does because she can. She has no respect for other's privacy, and throws out insults towards Fitz and Sophie because she just does. She has no motive, impetus, or drive, she just does, and it sickens me.

The second type of selfishness is similar to a bully bullying others because they're miserable and it makes them feel good about themselves. It's horrible and malicious, and I'm not condoning it in any way, but its far more innocent (if bullying can be called innocent) then what Ro does.

Ro is malevolent, she doesn't do it because it makes her feel good, she just does it, with no regard with the relationships and lives she destroys in the process. She's a toxic radioactive waste dump of a person. A toxic waste dump doesn't make people sick and die for their own gain - it just does. That's how Ro is as a person.

Another reason is that she has no regard for what she says or does. She constantly tears Fitz down just because she can (I want Alden to be there next time she tries that. I want Alden to step in and tell her that what she is doing is not okay, because no other character has recognized this so far). I want Alden to be there next time she calls his son a nasty little microbe. I'd like to finally see Ro get some comeuppance for her terrible behavior.

Let's be honest with ourselves - Ro hates Fitz. She hates and complains and whines about how perfect he is. Since when has perfection been a crime? Since when is it up to her to decide the maximum amount of talent a person can have? As a perfectionist myself, I strive for perfection just as Fitz does. There is nothing wrong with striving to perfect yourself - there is if you are actively hurting yourself, but if you're naturally gifted like Fitz is, and you want to be the best you can possibly be, go ahead! Make the most of your innate talent and use it to seek your happiest future. Build & write your own happy ending.

She isn't a part of this relationship. She isn't affected by this relationship. She's actively impeding their ability to seek their own happiness, and not even for her own happiness (which is still horrid), she just does because she's "bored". Her repugnant behavior sickens me.

Ro is a textbook abuser. Let's go over a list of things an abuser does, and see to which characters she applies them to:

Name-Calling: The abuser will blatantly call the abused derogatory adjectives, like stupid or oblivious

We know she does this to Sophie, calling her oblivious. She also twists being perfect into a derogatory adjective, throwing it at Fitz. She also called Fitz a horrible little microbe, along with calling him & Keefe as stupid as amoeba.

Character Assassination: The abuser will use the word "always". You're always oblivious, stupid, late, wrong, etc.

She does this to Sophie, and also somewhat Fitz.

Patronizing: The abuser will be patronizing towards the abused

She does this to Sophie, Fitz, and Keefe.

Belittling: The abuser will belittle the abused

I'm pretty sure she does this to Sophie, Fitz, and Keefe.

Pushing Buttons: Once the abuser finds out what annoys the abused, they will do it nonstop.

Oh boy, does she do this to Keefe and Sophie. (Fitz just gets out of his way to ignore her and avoid her. It's why she's irritated by him, he hasn't opened himself to her and doesn't show flaws allowing her to find ways to sink her nasty manipulating fingers into him)

These are only a few signs of someone being an abuser, and yet Ro manages to hit pretty much all of them.

She gaslights Keefe into believing that Alden is only looking out for himself and his children - something we know to be completely wrong. She's driving a wedge between Keefe and Alden, one of the few other people Keefe respects and thinks looks out for him. The only other parental individual in Keefe's life, in fact, giving Ro total access to Keefe's psyche and making herself the only "true" source of information Keefe can trust. She is a horrible, horrible abuser.

Ro doesn't have benign intentions at heart. She doesn't even have selfish intentions at heart. She just meddles just because she can.

Ro isn’t selfish. She’s just a bad person - for a lack of a better term that would describe her repulsive behavior.

She constantly complains about the elves. Yes, elven culture is a little weird, but you don’t have to complain about it constantly and in-front of the elves.

Ro is also clearly not afraid to gaslight. She forces Keefe to believe that her opinions are the only valid ones. How does she do this? She says that "Blondie doesn't know what she feels," making Keefe think that any emotions he picks up from her are wrong. She says that Fitz is just "Captain Perfect" who doesn't really care about Sophie - that Keefe "deserves" her. She says that Alden's advice is just made up, and that he doesn't really care about him. She’s established herself as the only source of information that Keefe can trust. She’s removed Alden (the one other parental figure Keefe had) and established herself as the only person Keefe can trust. And that is very dangerous and highly abusive.

She even invalidates Keefe's emotions. Every time Keefe stands up to her and says something like "I'm just being a good friend," Ro responds (like any of this is her business) with something snarky. Or, she tells him to "stop being so afraid." And that forces Keefe to believe that his desire to help his friends isn't valid enough. That he isn't valid enough. So he comes crawling back to Ro.

She’s a terrible bodyguard. She threatens to not protect Keefe in Legacy if Sophie doesn’t share her secret with her. THAT IS NOT OK UNDER ANY CIRCUMSTANCES. SOPHIE DID NOT TRUST KEEFE WITH HER SECRET OF BEING UNMATCHABLE. RO EXTORTED IT OUT OF HER, USING KEEFE AS A LIE DETECTOR. THAT IS NOT OK; IT IS EVIL.

If you re-read the portion in Legacy where she does this, it reveals some truly horrible behavior.

Here’s another direct quote from JaxTheShade explaining why this part is so disgusting:

“Essentially, Ro is blackmailing Sophie.

Sophie just found out that if Keefe goes anywhere near the Neverseen, he will probably die. ( Because at this point, they just thought the legacy thing would kill him ). So she's desperately trying to get Keefe to make a promise and stay away from Gisela. Keefe, in typical fashion, adamantly states that he's not going to be locked up.

This is where Ro steps in.

She says that she will be the one to protect him and make sure he doesn't run off. ( Since she is his bodyguard ). But instead of just...doing her job...she decides that she can exploit the situation. She can get something out of this.

She figured out that Sophie is hiding something. And from the way she hasn't told anyone yet, Ro can assume that she's trying to keep it a secret. But she also knows that Keefe's safety is important to all of them.

So she threatens Keefe's life--yes, threatens--unless Sophie spills her secret. The situation becomes, "I have all the power here, so unless you tell me a confidential secret, I'll let my charge run off into danger, which you can't have. So I know that I've put you into a corner. I know that I've won here."

If this doesn't scream "manipulative abuser", then I don't know what does.

It's disgusting, really. Ro's behaviour is despicable.

And while her blatant blackmail is clearly the worst offense, she also sprinkled in several other "I'm a bad person" actions.

1) She said that the reason Keefe gets away with things is because she "doesn't care enough to fight him" on them. Well, if you don't care, then why don't you just go back to Ravagog? Because Keefe is the second most threatened person their group, and he needs an actual bodyguard, not a manipulative princess who makes him feel even worse about himself. If Keefe gets hurt when he runs off, did he get hurt because you "didn't care enough to bother"?

2) Ro says that she doesn't care that much about him. Well, thanks, Ro. I'm sure that really makes Keefe sleep soundly at night, knowing that you don't really care about him.

3) And why does she not really care about him? Because she only bothers with Keefe as long as he doesn't make her "look bad". She says that the reason she's stopping him this time is because it'll damage her reputation if he dies. You know, instead of being worried about his life.

4) She says "I enjoy meddling". And that's her excuse for blackmailing Sophie into spilling a confidential secret. And yet she has the audacity to accuse Alden of "meddling" while here she sits, admitting it to everyone and acting like it's not a big deal.

5) Her very last line in the quote just further proves that she's just doing this to get Sokeefe to happen. Instead of feeling remorse for Sophie, who is trying not to look at them and clearly uncomfortable, she just brushes off the secret that she just forced out of her by saying that "it should do the trick". The trick being 'getting Fitz to break up with her'.

This is probably Ro's most egregious act yet.

And yet nobody ever seems to call her out for it or even think that...it's a little weird that she would do this.

But I guess it really isn't weird at all, seeing as we've have evidence in the past that proves she would stoop to this level.” - JaxTheShade

That part in Unlocked where Shannon said that (deeeeeeeeeeeep down) Ro cares about Keefe? Well, it’s ooc. Look what Ro says in Legacy: "I may not care that much about what happens to you, but if you get yourself killed on my watch, it makes me look bad—especially if I had advance notice. So, I can’t have that."

Re-read that portion in Legacy. Alarm bells should be going off in your head.

She reminds me of the villain Ellsworth Monkton Toohey from The Fountainhead. Do you know what he did? He turned people into slaves by establishing psychological power over them and making them miserable. By killing their wants, needs, desires, and happiness, he turned people into miserable slaves who would obey his every order. And the scary part? Ro uses the exact. same. tactics. that he does (not going to list them here, that would take far too long) on Fitz, Sophie, and Keefe. And Keefe almost perfectly resembles the characters who fall for his manipulations and tactics, while Sophie and Fitz resemble the characters who ignored him and went about their business. It’s really unnerving.

Everyone is entitled to seek their own happiness - as long as their actions don't impede others from seeking their own happiness.

Ro actively impedes Sophie, Fitz, and Keefe's pursuit of their own happiness, doing it for no other reason than the fact that she's bored. It sickens me.

And the fact that Fitz is basically demonized and hated by the fandom while praising Ro is what sickens me the most.

Ro manipulates, gaslights, and abuses Sophie, Keefe, and Fitz for her own fun. She doesn't have any long term goal, just destroying their psyche and impeding their ability to find their own happiness for short term amusement. She mocks Fitz for being trying to be perfect (since when has that been a crime?), she gaslights and Objectifies Sophie, mocks Keefe and openly abuses him, and interferes with their relationships because she finds it funny. She's also a misandrist. She calls Fitz a nasty little microbe (I want Alden and Della there next time she does that). She objectifies Sophie as a trophy for Fitz and Sophie to fight over. She constantly tears down Fitz and Sophie, and uses a number of tactics abusers use in real life on Fitz, Sophie, and Keefe. She is a radioactive toxic waste-dump of a person, ruining their lives and psyches not even for her own gain, but just for her own amusement. Her further abuse of Keefe is repugnant, her objectification of Sophie is disgusting, and her mocking and bullying of Fitz makes me want to puke. She's a terrible, terrible person.

And that is why I hate Ro.

#kotlc #kotlc ro #ugh I hate Ro #Ro Hate #kotlc discourse

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wiseabsol · 3 years

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oooh, can I request Pasithea for that list of fandom questions? There's not a huge variety of romance in this canon so I'm mostly curious about your top 5 ships 🧐

001 | Send me a fandom and I will tell you my:

Favorite character: Jane Gonzalez, for sure. She's done some horrible things, but I adore her and want to wrap her up in so many blankets.

Least Favorite character: Probably Salazar or Steptoe, not because they're bad in any way, but because they blur in my brain and I struggle to tell them apart. Also, while Blanc is an awful, horrible, no good person, he's distinct and fun to hate, so I can't pick him!

5 Favorite ships (canon or non-canon): Sophie/Jane, Sophie/Jane/Evelyn (WHY AREN'T THEY CANON POLY I DON'T UNDERSTAND), Sophie/Valencia (it would be so funny), Blanc/Moreau (I am less enthused about this one now, because Moreau has started to redeem themself, but it was also such a funny concept for a while), and Elinor/Stevie (Elinor needs someone to ground her so badly).

Character I find most attractive: I mean Sophie, Jane, and Valencia all have their perks. Sophie would be fun to hang out with, Jane I could nerd out with, and Valencia just seems like someone I would find very aesthetically appealing.

Character I would marry: Jane. We're around the same speed. I could not keep up with Sophie, good lord, and Evelyn strikes me as a dude who I'd find annoying because he's such a rich boy.

Character I would be best friends with: Also Jane. I'm somewhere on the ace spectrum, so marrying my best friend seems super appealing as an idea.

A random thought: If Sophie turns out to be an Other my cackling will be heard from space.

An unpopular opinion: Evelyn sounds like he would have been insufferable to spend extended periods of time with.

My canon OTP: Sophie/Jane, of course!

Non-canon OTP: Jane/Evelyn would have been cute, since they had similar worldviews (though it sounds like Jane was more pragmatic and understood that progress happens in increments, versus Evelyn, who seemingly wanted a sweeping revolution). Too bad Evelyn wasn't into her that way. Oh, Valencia/Blanc could be fun, since they're both slimy, but presumably would look great together and could have fun being Lawful Evil together.

Most badass character: This is a toss-up between Sophie and Jane. Sophie sounds like an incredible pilot and is fun to listen to, but Jane's sheer amount of endurance in the face of psychological suffering is staggering.

Pairing I am not a fan of: Jane/Blanc, why god why. He's so gross. Also Sophie/Evelyn, but that's because it increasingly sounds like they brought out the worst parts of each other and should have just stayed friends.

Character I feel the writers screwed up (in one way or another): I've seen an argument made that Elinor Lopez is a literary stereotype of an investigative journalist, as opposed to what investigative journalists are actually like. I love her as she is, but I agree that making her a member of the paparazzi, who stumbled into reporting real news, would have been a better fit.

Favourite friendship: Sophie/Jane, because I'm impressed with how much they press each other to communicate clearly and consider each other's different perspectives. Sophie/Anders is also really sweet. Jane/Moreau is going to grow on me, too, I can tell.

#the pasithea powder #Ask response

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ahardisons · 3 years

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Do you discourse? I disagree with your interpretation of Hardison’s treatment in the ice man/gold digger (probs bc I relate a lot to him and like that they show he can make mistakes (by being “too much”) without people being angry or his family leaving). I think it’s realistic given his background and I think some of his work on maintaining everyone’s aliases/props/etc is (in addition to believing in the work/enjoying it/or being his language) a desire to show he’s useful which can lead to overcompensating. So, those episodes make me kinda uncomfortable but in the I’m looking in a mirror but it’s okay because his people still love him kind of way)

(Super agree on the tipping thing though- that’s the only character moment from the show that I feel doesn’t really fit. And apparently the writers may have put it in bc they were having a similar convo? I wish they’d given it to Parker instead bc I imagine she’s still learning about all the ways things are bad for “normal” people (and then she learns and starts tipping suspicious amounts) but I guess she always has a storyline in that ep?)

i do!! i will be tagging it as discourse though just in case people don’t want to see it lmao

but thank you for the message! i totally get your viewpoint and i agree for the most part about the overcompensation thing but personally not the reason - i.e. showing that he’s useful. just bc hardison knows he’s useful and hasn’t really shown any fear of being seen as someone who doesn’t do anything for the team/feel like he HAS to overcompensate? like he actually seems to be the one of the few who adjusted well to being alone in between season breaks if the crew has to step away from each other tbh.

(nate - 100% not fine being alone despite what he says

sophie - seems reasonably fine being alone but we all know that the crew is her only real family

eliot - also seems reasonably fine being alone but he also seems like the type to Do Something to distract from being alone which is why i think he’s always flashbacking into all the weird international shenanigans LMAO

parker - like nate, says she’s fine being alone but her entire character arc is discovering that she doesn’t have to be alone and that having a family isn’t a prison sentence)

rather, i think he overcompensates bc he wants to be The Best. it feels like it’s coming from a place of overconfidence rather than insecurity. he wants to run his own crew one day and be better than nate so he pulls out all the stops to show he can do it.

OH BUT OFF TRACK, YEAH! i think my main issue with gold and ice man is that these two episodes are one of the few episodes where hardison is the center of the plot. but unlike parker or eliot-centric episodes (or even sophie or nate), his episodes aren’t about growth or focused on character development. they’re about failure.

and there’s definitely an argument to be made that hardison has to experience hardship in order to overcome his fatal flaw but i’m not talking about making a mistake or being fallible (bc hardison has definitely made countless mistakes and has been vulnerable) but both his episodes end in abject failure.

it’d be different if his cons failed and he had to fix them on the spot (much like nate) so he could grow and learn how to navigate similar eventualities in the future, throughout the course of the episode. in that case, at least it could end in some kind of win. but for both episodes, that’s where it ends, failure.

mile high job is a good example of a (kind of) hardison-centric episode that highlights his failings but teaches him to learn from his mistakes and be better. he fucks up and almost blows the con right from the start bc he misses an important call time. the episode also highlights a lot of the flaws that he has (overconfidence, distractibility, being unreliable) but he gets better throughout the episode.

he identifies those negative traits and learns to either use or overcome them (overconfidence to trick people into believing he actually worked at a company for longer than a handful of hours; getting distracted by world of warcraft leads him to bonding with a coworker in one easy conversation, putting her on his side indefinitely; and overcoming that unreliability by pulling through at the end to save everyone on a falling plane) and it ends with a major win for him! i wanted THAT (but in a less of a high stakes situation as landing a plane BUT more emotionally gratifying) for his episodes so we could’ve seen him mature even further. and neither of these episodes had to end in a huge win tbh!

LAST THING: this is also the only time i actually like when nate pushes him to find solutions on his own bc it’s early enough that it makes sense that nate needs to teach him how to utilize his smarts efficiently. also i wish that both episodes were just better tools to see hardison as a Whole Realized Character with a past and his own motivations (WHY does he want to run his own crew outside of “help people”? WHO taught him everything he knew? WHERE is his family bc everyone else gets interstitial flashbacks that are funny but also reveal something about them as a person and how they interact with other people throughout their lives??? eliot and parker both have mentor figures, WHERE IS HARDISON’S!!!!).

BUT YEAH, thank you for giving me an excuse to ramble on for HOURS. also i’m like genuinely glad that you like the episodes and can enjoy them bc they are good episodes and funny and charming but i’m just stupidly overinvested in hardison and his character LMAO

(ALSO WTF YOU’RE COMPLETELY CORRECT, PARKER BEING THE ONE TO NOT TIP WOULD MAKE SO MUCH SENSE???? HOLY SHIT????? LIKE JUST A GENERAL “what? why would people do that? do they not just get paid?” and then she learns about minimum wage and how food service works sometimes get paid BELOW that on the basis that they POSSIBLY MAYBE IF PEOPLE FIND KINDNESS IN THEIR HEARTS get tipped in addition to their salary/hourly rate.)

#txt: reply #user: anon #txt: discourse #txt: long post #comment: i’m just IN MY HEAD about everything bc i’m an old person now and have nothing better to do than to analyze my favorite tv show

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what-do-1000-swords-look-like · 3 years

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RIGHT, she always wants the upper hand. No equals. Good point! So one last question as we are on a roll! Now, if we accept that Dany believes she loves Jon and Jon's feelings for Dany are maybe love, maybe part infatuation/lust and part political. WTF was going on with Jon and Sansa? I felt they kinda had that "love triangle framing" but the show never committed to it. Was it just a mistake and bad audience interpretation? Some days I'm convinced the show hints at it and other days I don't know.

Lol absolutely, my friend! Oooo, yes I would love to dig into this with you. I’m warning you that possibly another 100 page paper may be headed your way. ;-)

Jon & Sansa - the would they/wouldn’t they pair. It’s a loaded question with an even more loaded answer but I will try my best.

They definitely were going for a love triangle. There was no mistake, I don’t think, or even bad audience interpretation or any shippers wearing shipping goggles for the triangle or either of those pairings. I think it was all very intentional and we picked up on it because of them doing it intentionally.

Like you mentioned, the framing, the promos, the cast interviews, the story, the 8x06 script confirming Sansa loves Jon and Jon knows it, hell even the editing -- all of it lead up to exactly what we saw playing out on screen. And I believe they did this for one reason & one reason only (sadly): to be a contributing factor to Dany’s fall. To cause Dany paranoia not only because of her feelings for Jon, but also as a political opponent (& rival queen, like that tense moment in 8x04 where Dany makes sure to say “under their rightful queen” at Sansa and Sansa’s chin lift). I personally didn’t care for this portion of the story they chose to tell in that last season (and I know a lot of people like to say “Jon and Sansa as a ship is weird, they’re siblings, even the show said they only love each other like siblings” to which I say “its GoT for crying out loud, the Starks have married cousins before, Jon and Sansa were not close growing up & have been separated for years now” & then point to all below, the 8x06 script confirmation of Jon knowing that Sansa loves him, and ask why Sansa was a point of contention for Dany then when it comes to Jon at all if there wasn’t something there, it doesn’t make sense, but I digress). There are so many similarities (maybe not as many as there are differences between them but they’re there) between the two characters. And while I understand Sansa’s suspicion of Dany being an actual tyrant and it’s all in character, I didn’t care for them having two of the strongest female characters on the show essentially fighting over a man when it was about so much more than that for both of them. But alas, that’s what we got.

Before the 8x06 script confirming the love triangle angle they went for, they definitely showed:

Sansa giving heart eyes to Jon in 8x04 (0:08 - x), her jealousy to Dany and Jon’s warm smile exchange & getting up to leave right after that moment

her heartbroken expression in her argument with Jon when asking if he bent the knee to save the North or because he loved Dany in 8x01 (which of course, we never got a textual answer for from Jon himself)

Dany suspecting jealousy in her convo with Sansa in 8x02 with “you know he loves you” “and that bothers you?” and then Dany’s look trying to gauge if that’s the case

Sansa’s “why her?” when watching Dany and the dragons flying above Winterfell & her emotional reaction to Tyrion saying that Jon has told him that he’s not a Stark (which I think had more to do with her being upset that he still thinks this no matter how many times she’s told him otherwise, that she’s losing him, as family & as someone she loves) (2:27 - x)

her expression when saying goodbye to Jon at the dock in 8x06 (2:05 - x, I think this particular part was meant to be multi-layered, he’s her family that she’s losing, she’s in love with him, she couldn’t save him from his fate, she’s sorry that she had to tell his secret and break his trust, she’s sorry that he had to be the one to kill Dany to save them & the world by extension, she regrets that she can’t get him freed or restored as the King in the North, that she couldn’t keep him completely safe, all of it -- not to mention in the script, this is the part where it mentions that Jon knows Sansa loves him but he can’t forgive her for telling her secret and what it led to, which I personally think over time he would have, she’s still his family and he killed his love to keep her safe but moving on)

plus all of Sansa’s hoping for Jon to return & mentions of him in season 7

Littlefinger’s knowing expression (2:37 - x) as Sansa watches Jon depart from Winterfell after he was choked/threatened by him in response to Littlefinger telling Jon that he loves Sansa like he did Cat

It was all meant to set up this love triangle, if you will.

Personally, my feelings on it are complicated because on one hand, I’m glad that it confirmed everything I had been picking up on watching the show, especially from 6x04 and on. On the other hand, I was annoyed because they confirmed Sansa’s feelings but not explicitly textually, and only used them to help further along Dany’s story in the end while making Sansa look like the horrible villain (like they were trying to make her a Littlefinger 2.0), regardless of how her story ended. I remember a lot of people actually hating on Sansa for that decision that she made and I was there holding my hand up going “wait, do you know her character, though? do you not realize she didn’t tell his secret and break his trust to get at Dany or to get back at Jon? that she actually did it to save his life? have you ever seen the movie Gladiator? you can’t kill someone publicly without reason in this universe, not if you’re going to be sitting on an iron chair in this country and are hoping to come across as the savior of the people, the benevolent but strong queen, a secret is much easier to snuff out, folks.” That’s one of the ways I believe Sansa’s characterization got muddled in the end. Everything she did, she did to protect Jon and her family as well as the North, and Arya confirms it in dialogue in 8x01, what Sansa’s true motivations were at the time (not to mention David Nutter’s direction to Sophie for the courtyard scene with Dany “This is your house”) and that’s why Arya stood fast with her. But I’m going off on a tangent, sorry, back to the Jonsa/love triangle framing.

Here’s what I believe on this despite the obvious plot device they turned the love triangle setup into:

For Jonerys, they promo’ed it heavily for the last season, right? There was this:

And of course this:

They had been given a love scene in 7x07

Dany’s costume from 7x06 to 8x03 was meant to indicate that Dany was in love with Jon as reported by Michele Clapton, the (brilliant) costume designer

they even had their own love theme “Truth” that was being played during some, if not most, of their scenes

They were purposely framed:

the shot of them coming out of the cave together in 7x04

them sitting at the table in the great hall together in 8x01 (which they definitely threw Sansa in there as well)

the shot of them closing the door in the boat cabin in 7x07

them standing together talking about the dragonglass in 7x03 with the dragons in the background

them walking back to the castle in 7x05 after Dany returns from battle

them talking privately in the dragonpit 7x07 while waiting for Tyrion

them walking up to the dragons in 8x01

them watching the Dothraki attack the White Walkers in 8x03 from the mountaintop

them framing Tyrion in the middle when the White Walkers arrive at Winterfell in 8x02 (because let’s face it Tyrion will be coming between them in a way in 8x06)

them standing & facing Lyanna’s statue in the crypt in 8x02

them standing at the waterfall in 8x01 and kissing

them on dragons at the same time in 8x03 in battle mode

the whole framing of their warm smile exchange in 8x04 and then them standing together in the bedroom scene in the same episode

them standing together in the destroyed throne room in 8x06

They did all of that to show that this is a couple and a power couple at that, which could possibly turn into a ruling couple. Even at the premiere of the final season, I remember at the time seeing a photo circulating around this site, showing that Sophie, Kit, and Emilia were placed within vicinity of each other when the cast took the stage, and even then it was obvious not only that they were playing up the Jonerys angle but also the love triangle framing (especially with this promo at 1:11 x). They knew they had an audience for that particular angle but in this last season, they brought it to the forefront, just not in the way anyone would expect (in their minds). That’s why they had the cast (namely Kit and Sophie) drumming up PR since season 7 (and possibly earlier), hinting and teasing that there would be so much tension between Jon and Sansa, that there would be a power struggle (wtf? what power struggle? because she questioned a decision of his & it showcased just how different he was from rulers before him like Joffrey & showed us he was a good ruler, one she believes in? sure, Jan, power struggle, sure) and all of that good stuff. Because what did everyone expect to be endgame?

And those who didn’t that maybe thought Jon might be in love with Sansa or vice versa, or even if there was going to be another romance for Jon or Sansa or both:

And the thing D&D and the show kept saying? “Subvert expectations” -- that was their whole goal while trying to tell this story

Personally, I don’t think they ever intended to make either pairing endgame. I believe they wanted people to think one or the other, but I don’t think they ever intended to go further than that (that I’m aware of, I should say). I know there were some rumors that supposedly they had planned for a Jonsa endgame all along, and had even shot scenes for one, but I don’t think they did (if I’m wrong, I would be more than happy to be). And the reason I don’t think they did besides for the love triangle to be a plot device contributing to the end they had in mind for all three characters? The way they ended everyone else’s arcs that did not make a lick of sense. I think Jonsa was heavily foreshadowed as Ned and Cat 2.0 but I think they planned to do it only to bring this to the viewers’ minds in order to make Sansa a romantic and political rival, enough that Dany sees the threat, Jon knows it, and it influences Sansa’s decisions enough that it also affects Jon’s and Dany’s decisions.

As much framing as they did for Jonerys, they also did for Jonsa. The only difference was that it began more almost subtle (though the framing was screaming loudly even back when they were building up their forces to take back Winterfell in season 6), Sansa wasn’t a queen yet, and she didn’t have dragons or a direwolf pack behind her. This is just my personal opinion, but I think Sansa was always meant to play a part in this triangle, like I mentioned Sansa and Dany have many similarities, they also show the contrast between both ladies in Jon’s life as well as how they would rule as queens (while hinting he would be the King half of each relationship):

I don’t remember where this post is (if I find it again, I’ll come back and edit, I want to give them proper credit) but I know I saw it on here somewhere. Roz confirms in season 3 that when Sansa was born, they rang the bells all day in Winterfell. (x) When Dany was born, not only was there a great storm with dogs howling all night (which further proves she is one of the two threats to Westeros like GRRM said) (x) but what was going on while she made the decision to torch KL? They were ringing the bells to surrender (x)

Sansa organizes the defense for Jon (like a Queen Regent would do), handles the Littlefinger situation, and rules the North while the pack makes its way back home so to speak in season 7 all while Jon is away; granted Dany already has her armies, she is already a queen, so she doesn’t need to do any of this and she does go to North to assist Jon in the Great War & save Jon and the guys in 7x06 but she also chooses to burn all of the supplies in the battle with the Lannisters in 7x04, doesn’t really concern herself with the little things like food (I know she has a Council for that but I think they show this contrast purposely to show she’s not really a ruler) and gets annoyed when that is questioned (granted Sansa was a bit snarky here but it was a very good point to make and actually echoes Jon’s own ruling method/concerns from season 5 as Lord Commander)

Sansa brings reinforcements for Jon in 6x09 using her connections so to speak just like Dany shows up to save Jon in 7x06 & brings her forces north in 8x01 to assist in the Great War

Dany is shown ruling in 8x02 when Jaime Lannister arrives but eventually she is outvoted (which is a nice way of putting it lol) by Sansa and Jon who agrees with the logic of getting every person they can get to fight this war - but they also make sure to show that while Dany isn’t listening to Jaime or Tyrion (as her Hand), Sansa listens to Brienne (her sworn sword) and that factors into her decision making, meaning she will weigh everything and not let anger or emotion cloud the issue & she will take things under advisement before so doing

the convo that takes place in 8x02 between Dany and Sansa, when Dany walks into the library, Sansa is seen giving instructions to keep the gates open for more people to come for safety to Royce who gives her respect after, and the bare minimum respect to Dany as he leaves - we also see Sansa thinking of everything outside the Great War box by asking about what happens afterwards and after they defeat Cersei, and then of course we see Dany’s narrow scope of an answer “I take the iron throne” and she has no answer for what after which launches Sansa into steel mode & asking again about the North more strongly

after their convo, we see Sansa and Dany walking in and standing in front of Theon and his men. Theon gives Dany her due respect as their queen but he makes it clear who he is there to address, who he is there to fight for, and gives Sansa her due respect as well. But we also see Sansa’s reaction to Theon pledging to fight for them as we see Dany’s reaction to all of this and her confusion, seeing it’s not duty that Theon is fighting for, but love, love for Sansa & his chosen family -- more importantly, love that Dany doesn’t have which she confirms in 8x04 and 8x05

We see Sansa make the point in the battle planning scene in 8x04 about the men needing to rest, that the generals need to be spoken to. Dany who feels she has waited long enough after she came to fight the Great War alongside Jon doesn’t want to hear this. But it actually is a very good point to make & consider, as we know. Yes, Dany still won in the end, but possibly she wouldn’t have lost Missandei (we can only assume) or Rhaegal or anymore men or wouldn’t have even razed KL to the ground (possibly). But because she didn’t want to wait and it was Sansa who made that point, it’s immediately dismissed.

We see Sansa as someone who would go to war for her family by the dragonpit scene in 8x06 - while she’s in love and they’re threatening the guy she’s in love with who is another member of her family who is being held captive, she is not unleashing fury unless Jon gets hurt which is confirmed by her dialogue to Grey Worm; yes, Dany holds back in 8x04 when Tyrion attempts to compromise with Qyburn & Cersei while they hold Missandei captive & Euron has already killed Rhaegal, she did not attack KL as soon as she landed in Westeros, but the desire to was always there & showed to us in moments throughout the last 2 seasons, never mind all of the hints we were given of what would happen if she came over to Westeros before then

Another contrast is how Dany handles executions vs how Sansa handles them - both are brutal of course and not fun, but how they were conducted says a lot (though they both definitely have in common that they both swing the sword so to speak after they pass the sentence) - Sansa gave Littlefinger his chance to defend himself as he asked though no one would help him, Varys was never given that chance (even if she told him what she would do to him if she discovered him betraying her, which in a way he did look her in the eye first and tell her like she asked but she ignored him and I don’t think that constitutes as a full betrayal, he was never given a trial like setting, only a chance to say his last words, which fun fact that Cersei does the same with Missandei and slightly weirder but I suppose it was weird at the time since Jon was fresh back from the dead, Jon in season 6 with his murderers, though the crimes are: Littlefinger - getting Ned Stark beheaded and starting the Lannister/Stark conflict, Varys - treason, attempt to overthrow a ruler, Missandei - being in the wrong place at the wrong time & for shock value, Night’s Watch murdering squad - murdering Jon so all different I suppose if I’m being fair, but the styles of executions...I’m just saying)

Sorry, I ran off on a tangent there for a minute but I think it all relates to the whole framing of this love triangle and Jonsa itself. Jonsa was definitely going to be a thing, maybe not the way we thought it would, but it was definitely brought to the forefront in season 8. And they purposely hooked us with the framing they gave Jonsa alone as Ned and Cat 2.0. Like Robb, Jon is named King in the North. Instead of the Young Wolf, he is the White Wolf. His costumes and hair styles are meant as callbacks to Ned. Sansa’s own look is meant to be a callback to Cat though she has different hairstyles and different costumes. Her dress in 8x04 at the feast has a scale-like look to it and this is also meant to call back to the Tully side of the family (which is interesting because she’s a Stark through and through yet in this moment, a moment where we see her giving heart eyes to Jon, she is wearing a dress meant to callback to her mother while Jon had just been sitting at the head of the table where Ned would have sat...yep). There were tons of shots framing them as the ruling couple of Winterfell, as Ned and Cat come again:

Oh and this gem in comparison to the hand shot up above for Jonerys:

Not to mention the callbacks in other ways:

Ned choking Littlefinger in season 1 when going to meet Cat in a brothel --> Jon choking Littlefinger in the crypt in 7x02 after the latter admits he’s in love with Sansa, just like her mother

Ned & Cat watching Bran practicing archery in the courtyard before they are interrupted --> Jon (and Sansa with Davos) in 7x02 watching people practicing archery in the courtyard as they discuss Tyrion’s scroll; Jon & Sansa talking in 7x01 above the courtyard when they are interrupted)

This brilliant video shows so many parallels, visually and textually, that show the Ned/Cat & Jon/Sansa callbacks so much better than I ever could

Michele Clapton is one hell of a brilliant costume designer. She is the one who said the costumes on the characters will hint at their desires. She is the one who went in depth on what certain costumes or accessories mean, so much so that they tell their own story outside of the acting, framing, music, and dialogue. She’s really brilliant. Jon was in a similar costume to Ned in 6x09 in the tent scene and then during the Battle of the Bastards. Then, Jon was in Stark clothing up until the end of 8x02, until he was in a sigil-less costume (funnily enough after he is having his identity crisis) though he still maintains the Stark cloak. He continues to don that cloak, except at the feast in 8x04.

Though when he goes to battle in 8x05, he is wearing the Stark emblem as expected, since he’s leading the Northmen into the fight. But then Arya shows up at the end after Tyrion has been arrested, as Jon watches Dany walking away which funnily enough they’re playing a Targaryen-esque theme again, and boom there’s Arya and his choice is in his face again but moving on. Then when he goes to talk to Tyrion, he has no Stark clothing, all sigil-less again. (I think this was done because he still hadn’t made a decision yet while they also were trying to keep the audience in the dark as to what would happen). But when he goes to talk to Dany, even though his clothing is sigil-less, his outfit looks very familiar to what Ned and Robb have worn in the past (indicating stealthily that he had made his decision, not to kill Dany, but that he was a Stark). Sansa’s crown has two wolves at the top, meant to symbolize the pack/her family as was her coronation dress. In my opinion, I don’t think she ever gave up hope that Jon or Arya would return home at some point.

So when it comes to Jonsa, I don’t agree completely with what they did but I do think those who rooted for them as a pairing or just their characters individually were left a very generous open ending so that others could take it and do what they would with it (fanfic, fanart, etc), that this open ending could make room for GRRM’s own ending in the last two books (I’m not sure how this will go in the books, if he even has any plans for it, but I have seen a lot of meta circulating on this site from the book readers who like the idea of the pairing showing clues they’ve picked up that there could be a hint to a Jonsa ending).

To answer your question with a long lengthy answer (sorry!), yes I think they intended to frame Jonsa romantically but not have Jon reciprocate or confirm/deny textually (or even have Sansa put words to it textually). Because they weren’t going to go with one of the predictable endings after all of the hinting/foreshadowing had been laid, (terrible writing to use the Ned/Cat thing as a red herring since the Starks were the underdogs to begin with, no pun intended) GRRM even says himself you can’t just suddenly change it, or do framing to build up something only so you can use it later on as a red herring and then go “gotcha! you didn’t expect that, did you? Oh I’ll give you Jon and Dany but not how you expect, oh I’ll give you Jon and Sansa but not how you expect, oh I’ll give you Jon as a king but not how you expect, expectations and predictability are the scourge that must be subverted at all costs” so they can pat themselves on the back with a “job well done” at fooling the audience and how they shocked them and go “OMG I did not see that coming!” I say the same for Jonerys with the pregnancy/child talk and even their framing, though at least they followed through on the romance part of it textually (regardless of story intentions).

And they definitely intended there to be a love triangle between Dany, Jon, and Sansa:

(the last one is I think meant to show the ruling portion, especially as Dany as the head, but it also shows these were the three main characters when it came to power, despite Cersei of course - though I think Jaime represents that Lannister reminder here as well & she’s being discussed so we don’t forget who still sits on the IT - and despite all the supporting players that go into the whole story)

The whole funeral scene in 8x04 (x) - we see Dany mourning Jorah, then Sansa mourning Theon and then who do they show afterwards? Jon. Then they show Dany walking back to her side, then Sansa walking back to hers in the wide shot. In 4:42, in the wide shot, it’s Sansa, Jon, and then Dany at the funeral pyres, watching them burn. Even when they’re walking away, they’re framed again with Dany in the middle of Jon and Sansa. Then they show Dany’s face, then Sansa’s. It’s just nuts. (to me, this whole scenario gave it away that we opened with two queens mourning their two knights/courtly lovers if you will, and then the rest which just proved more to me that this was a love triangle and that Sansa was in the running to be a queen just as much as Dany and Cersei were). We also see the scene where Jon studies Lyanna Mormont’s body and then turns to look at Dany who is just looking at him, waiting for him to give the signal to light the pyres. I might be reading too much into it but I find it interesting that Lyanna is the one he is going to burn, the same girl who presses Jon when he returns in 8x01 for giving up his crown & holds his feet to the fire, that she was the first to proclaim him as her king in 6x10 - x, first to come to Jon & Sansa’s aid in season 6 that we were shown though that was also due to Davos’ intervention, that she was loyal to House Stark even back when Stannis was around & this shot is followed by him looking at Dany, the reason he is no longer King in the North.

And how many times did Dany mention Sansa to Jon over that season after meeting her? Why was Sansa the one (I mean chosen story wise) to break the secret and be the catalyst for Varys to attempt to usurp Dany with Jon? That Dany was bothered by the most besides Cersei? Yes as a rival queen, a political rival, sure, but she mentions Sansa to Jon far too many times for it to be strictly that. She mentions Cersei a fair bit, too, but the tone is very different, even after Missandei being executed and Rhaegal being killed. Cersei is a bug to be crushed that simply stands in her way and has taken things from her that she should have never touched (the IT, Missandei, Rhaegal) but Sansa... Sansa is almost mentioned with as much vitriol (though way less name calling) by Dany as she is by Cersei. (The War of Five Kings? I think this really became the War of Three Queens at some point)

While Jon chose to protect his family, Arya was not pushing for Jon to kill Dany, she was only pushing for Jon to wake up and realize that he’s not safe since he would always be considered a threat to Dany (x) and would eventually end up being killed (”I know a killer when I see one”). And while I believe Arya would have stood by Sansa loyally and never backed down (that would have put her in danger in Jon’s mind solely, since he doesn’t know about her faceless training), Sansa was really the one that he knew wouldn’t bow down to Dany. The dialogue in that scene “Try telling Sansa” in 8x06, Tyrion mentioning Jon’s sisters and then Sansa specifically in that jail scene in the same episode (though I know he did this to also get through to Jon, exploiting this weak point) (x), Jon’s question to Dany in the throne room later on “what about everyone else? what about all of the other people who think they know what’s good?” and Dany’s “they don’t get to choose” (x) followed by Jon’s look afterwards...he knows, he also knows Sansa won’t back down and she’ll eventually be executed most likely the same way Varys & the Tarlys were (this is confirmed in the script with the line “Jon understands what this means for the people he loves the most” & he remembers Dany’s line in her speech to the Unsullied & the Dothraki mentioning Winterfell), he makes his decision right then and it weighs heavy on him but he does it - he ultimately lived up to his promise that he made back in 6x09 “I’ll protect you, I promise” to Sansa though she doubted it was possible at the time. (x)

Plus, I’m also looking at Kit’s acting choices here, the Master of Microexpressions himself:

(x) (x) (3:37 - x) - and just to point this out for the whole thing above, isn’t it funny they go from a shot of Jon after Sansa walks away that they go to Torumnd and Brienne, a redhead whose affections are not returned, sure it’s meant to be comedic and obviously Jon is not disgusted by Sansa but also...eh, maybe I’m reading too much into that editing choice...)

This in sync movement as well as framing here (0:48, and before this, just to note, Sansa’s horse keeps pace with Jon’s and she keeps pace with him while walking until the fight breaks out, while also speaking up and keeping in the conversation, meaning not only is she trying to be heard but she’s on an equal level with Jon, they’re a team trying to take Winterfell back, she has the Stark name & he has the military experience - x)

Why the breathlessness, Kit & Sophie? Why acting choices? (3:36 - x) (1:02 with step forward after - x) (1:35, this little inhale right here - x) (1:54 - his shocked reaction to seeing the Starks & his inhale and who is front and center in the lineup? & why that last look after [what I think he’s doing] memorizing Sansa’s & Arya’s faces for the last time, 4:46 when Sansa is not his favorite sibling & they lined them up by affection level almost for Jon with Sansa being the furthest back? x)

It was definitely portrayed as romantic, almost as much as Jonerys was, to feed into the love triangle theme later on they wanted to present. And while the scripts hadn’t been written yet for season 8, D&D did confirm they had started planning the show’s end around the time season 6 was being shot. They also worked with GRRM on certain planning of the final season, they said through video calls or something like that (I’m not sure if they discussed this part of it at all but I’m sure they discussed Dany and Jon and Dany’s fall and what could contribute to it). Benioff also said that the relationship between Jon and Sansa would “be crucial to watch” (though at the time, he was talking about the conflict between them, that Sansa doesn’t trust Jon, didn’t tell him about the KotV, etc).

I think the love triangle was intentional, I think framing Jon and Sansa as the second coming of Ned & Cat was intentional, and I think Sansa having feelings for Jon & their romantic framing/coding was very intentional. I just don’t think the Jonsa endgame (as far as I know) or the Jonerys endgame was intended to be an HEA for either one at the end.

It was always going to come down to Jon having to choose one house or the other, which family, but also choose which queen. In the end, as we know, he chose the Starks, the family he’s always been with and loves, and kept his promise to Sansa. Dany broke the wheel, sure, but Jon ended up being the “shield that guards the realms of men” by taking out the other threat for Westeros, making room for Sansa to remain safely in her home (which is what she’s always wanted) and not under anyone’s thumb or boot heel. Jon took that safety away when he brought Dany up North (though he had to) but thankfully, he restored it even if he wishes that it didn’t have to happen in that way, even if he continues to question if what he did was right (it was, even though I love Dany, she wasn’t going to stop). Sansa was in love with the idea of love as a child, the stories about princes and knights, we know this canonically about her character (more from the books, but I think they intimated it in season 1 with the whole Joffrey arc). I think in her eyes, Jon is that prince, that knight, especially after she saw how he was as a king, even if his decisions frustrated her at times. I think she trusted him after they take back Winterfell (though she didn’t care for his decision to bend the knee and now we see that she had good reason) but she never naively did, if that makes sense. She still kept her wits about her, and even though I don’t think she ever expected Jon to do what he did in the end, killing Dany, I think she still hoped he would be safe and would she, and by extension Arya (should she return) and Bran, and that maybe hopefully someday Jon would come back home. She still had her feelings but she accepted that Jon had made his choice (even if she didn’t understand it or agree) and it wasn’t her or the Starks (from that convo with Tyrion in 8x04). But in the end, Jon did choose her and the Starks, and absolutely proved himself a Stark, and part of the pack.

It’s almost wasted potential, but I think that’s what they were kind of going for. I know the actors themselves balked at the idea of Jonsa as a romantic pairing (Sophie’s response at a comic con when a fan mentioned Jonsa as a ship, Kit’s recent reaction on a video call or panel with “that’s weird” when someone mentioned Jonsa as a ship, etc) but after all of this, you can’t tell me that’s not what they were shooting for even if they never intended for it to became overtly textual like Jonerys did, even if it was only used to push Dany towards her fall in the end. Bittersweet, indeed.

So, my friend, I hope this very long post answers that question for you. I’d be very curious to hear what you think, too! <3

#ask #jonsa #dark!dany mention #got #game of thrones #got posts #got love triangle #anti jonerys slightly #jon x sansa #got meta

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jackoshadows · 4 years

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@currentlyconfused16

So I didn’t want to reblog this post:

https://currentlyconfused16.tumblr.com/post/618980963706355712/jackoshadows-reganx2

you commented on since it had other reblogs and comments and I thought I would make a separate post on this since I have received similar comments on other posts, namely that:

I actually do think and hope that Sansa will end up as the Lady of Winterfell in the books (maybe Queen of the North, idk) but she’ll be much more prepared, as her current arc in the books is about learning how to play the game of thrones and being in charge of her own destiny, surrounded by her family. Which is why her show ending is so disappointing. Yes, she ends up on a throne in Winterfell, but she’s alone, with no family or true friends around her, surrounded by bannermen who hardly know her. The books have always put emphasis on the Starks being and working together in the end, and they all end up alone.

So let me address why I think that Sansa is not going to end up in charge of Winterfell at the end of the books. This is just my interpretation and speculation based on the books and the author’s thoughts and opinions.

I am coming at this from the perspective of a book reader. If you have not read the books, then just skip to the tl;dr version at the end 😁

First, note that the only ending on the show confirmed to be from the books/GRRM is Bran being King on the Iron Throne/7K. D&D have variously explained the badly written other endings of the show as being there to ‘subvert expectations’ and because ‘it would be different’ and ‘it would be unexpected’ and to ‘surprise the audience’ etc.

Second, playing the game ≠ ruling a kingdom. The show equated the two in order to push their Queen Sansa narrative. But that has never been a thing in the books. GRRM has clearly shown this with the narratives of the actual rulers and entire books on what it actually takes to rule city states. What Littlefinger does in the books and what Dany, Stannis and Jon do are entirely different things. The one has no connection to another. Do you think that Littlefinger or Varys would be good rulers?

Sansa’s ending has been particularly criticized because it makes no sense - it’s like fitting a round peg into a square hole. D&D knew the book endings from GRRM before they wrote season 3 - if Sansa is going to end up in charge of Winterfell, he would have have given them a path to queen Sansa and they could have figured out a way to do it on the show.

In contrast to Bran/Isaac Hempstead who sat out an entire season, was sidelined and basically given nothing much to do on the show other than exposition, D&D have admitted in interviews that they wanted MORE Sophie Turner on the show and therefore gave her the plot of another book character.

Their exact words:

“And it’s because of Turner’s strength, Benioff continued, that it made sense to give Sansa a dramatic storyline this season and to use Ramsay’s engagement for that very purpose. In fact, the showrunners first thought about putting Sansa and Ramsay together back when they were writing season 2. “We really wanted Sansa to play a major part this season,” Benioff said. “If we were going to stay absolutely faithful to the book, it was going to be very hard to do that. There was a subplot we loved from the books, but it used a character that’s not in the show.”

https://ew.com/article/2015/04/26/game-thrones-sansa-ramsay-interview/

To re-iterate, Sansa will have nothing to do with the battle of the bastards or retaking Winterfell in the books. She is stuck in the Vale and will not be going North anytime soon. Ramsay Bolton is Theon Greyjoy and Jon Snow’s nemesis. They are going to be the ones taking him down along with Stannis Baratheon.

Out of all the Starks, Sansa has the least connection to the North in the books. She grew up revering the south and learned from a Septa. Every other Stark (Other than Rickon) knows more about the North and how it works than Sansa Stark. We can read it in their POV chapters. Every other Stark has a living Direwolf - the symbol of house Stark. Sansa lost hers after siding against her family and with the Lannisters.

The show just put the Starks into boxes: Sansa - politician, Jon - warrior, Arya - fighter/Killer, Bran - warg. This is not true in the books. Arya and Jon are also strong wargs and connected to Rickon and Bran through warging via their direwolves. Something that Sansa cannot do because Lady is dead.

Jon Snow is planning Stannis’ entire Northern campaign, advising him on the finer details of Northern politics and battle. He has learned the same as Robb from the same people. So has Bran. Bran Stark has actually ruled Winterfell as the prince of Winterfell. Arya Stark sat by her father Ned Stark and learned from him as he worked with the people of the North. She is currently learning manipulation, reading emotion, languages and courtly manners from the Faceless Men.

There is no way that Sansa is going to be in charge of Winterfell over these other Starks who have actual experience and knowledge in how the North works as opposed to her. Does Sansa know how to attack Deepwood Motte? Does Sansa know how to approach the Mountain clans? These are things that Jon has learned from Ned Stark - the man that Sansa calls stupid on the show.

Then there is the fact that GRRM has put a couple of obstacles in the story to prevent Sansa from getting Winterfell as Ned’s eldest daughter.

She is still married to Tyrion in the books - a marriage that cannot be easily annulled. There has to be a friendly regime in KL before this marriage can be undone. Until then she is disinherited by Robb Stark’s will and no ruler friendly to the North will want to see a Lannister get Winterfell.The show ignored this marriage.

Jon Snow has been legitimized as Jon Stark by Robb Stark’s will. That makes him the eldest living Stark child and his age, experience and knowledge of the North makes him a strong contender to be Lord of Winterfell as opposed to LF’s protégé in the south. If he becomes KITN by Robb’s will in the books, he will also be the Lord of Winterfell. The show ignored all this to make Sansa Lady of Winterfell.

Robb’s will is binding. Meaning that once Jon is legitimized, there is no going back on this. Catelyn makes it a point to warn Robb about this - which indicates that it will be important later on in the books.

Bran and Rickon are still alive and well in the North. GRRM reminded everyone on his blog that Rickon was still alive in the books after the show killed him off to make Sansa the Lady of Winterfell on the show. Bran randomly tells Sansa that he cannot be lord of anything, only to go on to become King on the show. Garbage writing to once again justify Sansa in charge of WF even if it makes no sense.

Now, one can make the argument that if Rickon dies in the books as he does on the show, Bran is king of the 7K at the end and Jon is exiled as in the show, then Sansa can end up in charge of Winterfell. I disagree. Why? The answer is Arya.

Arya is arguably GRRM’s central female character in the books. She is the female character with the most POV chapters in the books after Jon and Tyrion. She was one of the first characters he created and other characters like Sansa were created around her. Sansa was created as a foil to Arya and because he wanted that one Stark family member who did not get along with the rest of them like for all the other houses.

Because of D&D’s open preference for Sansa over Arya - they have said as much in interviews - they gave over many of book Arya’s narrative themes, plot significance and relationships to show Sansa. The entire reason for why Sansa ended up in the North on the show is plot borrowed from the books for another character that is all about Arya’s importance to the North and several characters and houses fighting over Arya Stark to hold the North. The North is rising up for Arya in the books. They basically erased Arya from her story to put Sansa in there. Thematic words like - ‘The lone wolf dies, but the pack survives’ belong in Arya’s story in the books, not Sansa’s.

So basically the show had to co-opt Arya’s story and hand it over to Sansa to give her a path to QITN/Lady of Winterfell on the show. It could not be any more clearer here which character is headed towards being Lady of Winterfell and possible Warden of the North in the books. Hint: It’s not Sansa.

Arya still has a strong connection to her Direwolf Nymeria described thus:

“She says there's this great pack, hundreds of them, mankillers. The one that leads them is a she-wolf, a bitch from the seventh hell."

"Some will tell you that they are demons. They say the pack is led by a monstrous she-wolf, a stalking shadow grim and grey and huge. They will tell you that she has been known to bring aurochs down all by herself, that no trap nor snare can hold her, that she fears neither steel nor fire, slays any wolf that tries to mount her, and devours no other flesh but man."

“Wolves. Hundreds of the bloody beggars." He'd lost two sentries to them. The wolves had come out of the dark to savage them. "Armed men in mail and boiled leather, and yet the beasts had no fear of them. Before he died, Jate said the pack was led by a she-wolf of monstrous size. A direwolf, to hear him tell it. The wolves got in amongst our horse lines too. The bloody bastards killed my favorite bay."

And as per GRRM, Nymeria and her pack of wolves will have a major role to play in the North where they are headed. We already know that direwolves are going to be taking on Ramsay’s dogs in the battle of the bastards from GRRM’s notes. Which direwolves? Ghost? Shaggydog? A Bitch from the seventh Hell with her pack of wolves? All of them?

Arya is symbolic of the North. The other daughters of the North - Lyanna Mormont, Wylla Manderly, Alys Karstark etc. - are all Arya types in terms of personality and looks. The Arya/Lyanna comparisons have been strongly made in the books for a reason.

And finally Arya is the only Stark to have the Stark look. The only one. Think about this for a second - who would GRRM have end up as the last Stark in charge of Winterfell if Bran, Rickon and Jon are out of contention for the position? The Stark with the traditional long face and grey eyes of House Stark or the Stark with the red hair and blue eyes of house Tully?

Who will be Lady of Winterfell? The Stark with the Direwolf or the Stark without one? The Stark who has learned how the North works from her father or the Stark who has not learned this? The Stark who is still following her father’s words - ‘The man who passes the sentence should wield the sword’ while far away in Braavos or the Stark who is complicit in her little cousin’s slow poisoning in the Vale?

And lastly Arya has a lot of foreshadowing/hints of becoming a leader in the books. She is one of the rare nobles in the books who is friendly with the small folk, sympathizes with them and actively helps them - hallmarks of GRRM’s leaders like Dany and Jon. Varys’ description of a perfect ruler fits Arya to a tee:

Aegon has been shaped for rule before he could walk. He has been trained in arms, as befits a knight to be, but that was not the end of his education. He reads and writes, he speaks several tongues, he has studied history and law and poetry. A septa has instructed him in the mysteries of the Faith since he was old enough to understand them. He has lived with fisherfolk, worked with his hands, swum in rivers and mended nets and learned to wash his own clothes at need. He can fish and cook and bind up a wound, he knows what it is like to be hungry, to be hunted, to be afraid. Tommen has been taught that kingship is his right. Aegon knows kingship is his duty, that a king must put his people first, and live and rule for them"

Of course Varys is describing Aegon here, but everything he says holds true for Arya as well and is basically GRRM laying the groundwork for leader Arya. Arya’s ability to connect with the common folk, to identify with them, to work with them, to know them personally, to sympathize with them, is all leading to a path towards her becoming a leader of all the people.

And finally why am I saying that this Queen Sansa is D&D giving Sophie Turner her desired ending? Because that’s very evident from all their interviews. Sophie has wanted Sansa to be Queen and has been pushing this narrative since season 6 - talking about how every other character was useless except for Sansa - something that Sophie seems to actually believe in.

D&D have openly stated in interviews that at a certain point they stopped adapting Sansa and Arya from the books and based these characters on what Sophie and Maisie wanted for them. And Maisie clearly takes her lead from Sophie. That’s why the show versions resemble a self insert Mary sue propped up at the expense of other characters.

Queen Sansa at the end makes absolutely no sense when her brother, a Stark, just became King of the 7K. You mentioned as much in your post. So why was it there? In an interview they gave in Japan after the show ended D&D talked about being most interested in the Stark sisters and their endings because they had known them as child actors and seen them grow into adults from tiny children. (Isaac for some reason gets no such consideration from them even though he was an even younger child actor).

So it was not really about the characters at that point but more about the actors. It’s not that hard to put two and two together and come up with four here. It was a completely nonsensical ending for Sansa in a long list of other nonsensical endings on the show that they just put in there to make Sophie happy. That’s all. It’s clear they had just given up on making a well written show for the final season with shit like ‘Well Dany just forgot about the Iron fleet’ . So what’s one more garbage writing in there to make their child actress happy?

And to be clear, I am not blaming Sophie here. I am blaming the adults, the supposed expert writers of a big budget HBO TV show adapting a popular book series. Who, instead of adapting the book characters, decided to let a couple of teenagers dictate the writing for their characters on this show.

TL;DR: The show reduced and took away Jon, Arya, Bran and Rickon’s important roles in the North in the books and replaced it with Sansa from season 5 onwards in order to give Sophie Turner more to do on the show. They gave away book Arya’s narrative themes, plot significance and importance to show Sansa, then kicked Arya out and gave the North to the least deserving Stark on the show. The only logical conclusion that can be made from all this is that Sansa will not end up Lady of Winterfell/QITN in the books.

#Arya Stark #Bran Stark #Jon Snow #Rickon Stark #House Stark #Asoiaf #GOT #anti D&D #Book Sansa

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tenduw · 4 years

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My hetacast as Mamma Mia 2 characters

Older Donna - Ancient Rome

Well, Donna in this film is mostly a ghost figure, so who better resonates with her than the ghost of hetalia himself - Rome? All that aside, Yes, Rome is a ghost, but his legacy clearly lives on in the heta world - through his legacy in museums across the world (i.e. Wales, the USA) and does have an impact on his descendents (The Italies, Malta etc.). More importantly, he does care about each of his descendents and proudly watches over them, stepping in when times get tough. He is very proud of his grandchildren, and will always watch over them, all the way until they eventually pass away themselves.

Younger Donna - Ancient Egypt

There’s something about Ancient Egypt that captivates people. Whether it’s her beauty, her vibrant personality, her wild and carefree spirit or a combination of all three, no one knows, but she is definitely the protagonist of any story she is in. Not that she knows this haha. She also has a very set idea on where she wants to go, and once she has found her ‘home’, she will never leave it.

The thing that made me resonate Donna with her however, is how they both see their children. To her, her child means more than anything else in the world, and Egypt to her is her greatest treasure - To name a price on him would be unthinkable. And so it is her son, combined with her adaptable personality, that would push her on to keep trying, to keep being her - which in a land full of people who change at an instant, is remarkable.

Older Sam - France

Sam in the film has suffered a great loss. And I think the way he coped with said loss reminded me of France, who I see as someone who has also lost many past loves - not just Jeanne D’arc. He is someone who continues life after his loved one has passed, and makes it a point to think about the positives of the person and his ‘encounter’ with them rather than think about the grief he feels at their passing. He also would make it a point to step up for his deceased partners child/children, regardless of whether they were his child or not, because to him, this child has suffered a greater loss than he has, so why wouldn’t he be there when they need him most?

Younger Sam - Spain

Now one interesting thing about Spain is that I believe he is an avid believer in the concept of ‘love at first sight.’ And so if he sees someone and ‘falls in love with them,’ he will pursue them. Regardless of whether or not he is in an already existing relationship or not, as to him, all of that stuff becomes null and void when he meets ‘the one’ and will totally engage in nsfw stuff. He will attempt to set things straight by ending the prior engagement/divorce and go back to trying to pursue his ‘love,’ however if they have moved on, he would accept that and just hope that they are happy (That doesn’t stop him from checking in a few years later)

Older Rosie - Namibia

Nami has a very bubbly personality, often saying straight up what she is thinking - regardless of whether or not it makes any sense. She is similar to Ancient Egypt in a lot of aspects, however a key difference is that whilst AE unintentionally takes centre stage, Nami tends to take much more of a supportive role, something which she herself sees as a good thing, because why would she want to be restricted in a way that most main characters are?

That being said, she is very hesitant when it comes to relationships, even more so when it comes to reopening relationships. The only thing that would get her to change her mind tbh is someone showing her their vulnerability. That side - more specifically that human side, means an awful lot to her, and so will encourage her to allow herself to indulge in those more human emotions that she feels from time to time - Such as a crush, and maybe eventually, love?

Younger Rosie - Taiwan

Taiwan, like Nami, has a very bubbly personality. In fact the main area where the two differ in personality is that as she isn’t as old or experienced, Taiwan is not nearly as jaded when it comes to love as Nami is. And so, she will quite easily fall in ‘love’ with people (another avid believer of ‘true love’). She has a tendency to eat comfort food when that ‘relationship’ doesn’t work out whatsoever (often the person doesn’t know that she ‘loves’ them) but will move on relatively quickly.

Whilst she also is mostly content being a supportive friend, sometimes she can feel a bit of resentment and the fact that all of the ‘interesting’ stuff, such as romance and drama never really happens to her. She has never acted on this resentment though, as she has good impulse control (In the form of Vietnam) and if she ever did, she would probably regret it for a long time, if not for the rest of her life.

Older Tanya - Benin

Benin is a great supportive friend, once you get past her rather frosty exterior. She has a habit on falling back on sarcasm to get through a conversation, and so to people who don’t know her, they probably wouldn’t even know she was being sarcastic in the first place. A bit like Taiwan, she is rather tired of everyone around her except for herself finding love and establishing relationships, however unlike Taiwan, doesn’t need any impulse control and she is extremely good at hiding her frustration with this.

Younger Tanya - Vietnam

Another nation that uses sarcasm a lot, Vietnam instead tends to only use it in front of close friends rather than everyone. She is also very defensive of her loved ones, something of which they all very much enjoy. She is very good at acting as an impulse control, however if something happens to upset her, she will happily go to her comfort food to get calm again.

Older Bill - Tobago

Tobago has a great sense of humour and is not afraid to use it, with it often coming out in the randomest and the most awkward of times. He also has a tendency to come up with plans as he goes along, however as he is a very good actor, it never comes across as such a half baked idea.

That being said, he does not handle grief well. Tobago has a habit of growing attached to humans alongside nations, so when they inevitably die, he tends to be rather inconsolable after the first few years of their passing. He will start to make jokes soon after, however that person will always be remembered by him and their name alone is probably enough to make him start bawling.

Younger Bill - Denmark

Well, Bill is a sailor and scandanavian - so there was no way he wasn’t going to be a nordic. Denmark is loveable, charming and an all round nice guy to meet and he can put a smile to anyone’s face - regardless of what mood they were in beforehand. He is also a great person to be a friend with benefits with, as he won’t consider a ‘one time thing’ as long enough to fall in love with the other participant. That being said, he is also a caring person and will put aside what he wants to help out others.

Older Harry - Austria

Well, that scene at the end with younger Harry dancing around older Harry really made me realise who resonates with the man. Austria is rather ashamed of his past to be honest. Not because of the friendships he had then, because those came and went accordingly, but of how different he was back then to who he is now. He would never do half of the stuff he did back then, but it did happen, and so he is ashamed to admit that. That being said, he does deeply care about family, and so would put aside many things - no matter how advantageous they were to him, for family, and would ultimately be there for that family member, and always will.

Younger Harry - USA

Ahh the USA, the only country I could see thinking that he has fallen in love after sleeping with someone. He, like Spain and to an extent, Taiwan, also believes in love at first sight and so, would absolutely chase after who he believes tobe ‘the one.’ It won’t work out however, but not due to a lack of effort on his part.

Sky - Germany

Now, I feel like Germany is very conflicted of the issue of choosing the work or the home. Like if he were to get a job offer, like Sky in the film, I feel like his ecstasy over the idea would probably cause him to forget the fact that his partner is very attached to the place where they grew up, and in an argument, would probably again not get it. It would only be after the fight, that he realises and acknowledges the issue - and as someone who also has a ‘home’ that he would never leave, would come back - as family matters more than any job does - at least to him.

Sophie-- Mexico

Now Mexico is someone that I see as very hardworking, so I wouldn’t be surprised if they did have a hotel somewhere that they worked hard to restore and honour someone’s legacy. They are also someone that I feel would have the mindset that their ancestors live on through them - So they need to do their best to honour that ancestry. They are also someone who cares very strongly about their area and their homeland, so the thought of leaving their country is just preposterous to them. Mexico also has a habit of focusing on little tid bits about their ancestors - stuff that builds a picture of said ancestor in their mind. They do make their ancestors proud and continue to do so everyday.

Fernando - Egypt

Egypt is very good at giving compliments. However at the same time, he is not the type of person to just show his emotions, so I feel like he would have quite the pokerface. The only time this would be dropped is if he is feeling too much of an emotion - whether it be anger, happiness, shock etc. And if he were to bump into an old flame...then those feelings would definitely be on show, regardless of how much he tries to hide them.

Ruby - Britannia

I see Britannia as someone who is very hands off when it comes to raising children - similar to England in a way, and so, although she would realise her mistake partway through and try to amend it, her children and their friends’ opinions of her would not be very high.

Antonio - Argentina

I just feel like Argentina is the type of person to jump into the ocean to confess his love, regardless of the fact that he can’t swim.

Appolonia - Chile

....And Chile is the person that would join Arg...even though he can’t swim either.

Sofia - Eswatini

And finally, Sofia. Eswatini makes it a point to judge others based on how they treat the world around them - so if someone doesn’t mistreat an animal, they are bound to go up in their books, but if someone broke another’s heart, they would go down. They are also very helpful to those they like - once they have set their mind about someone, it is almost impossible for them to change it, and so a human would essentially be guaranteed their aid for life. Another thing the two characters have in common is that they both have had a child named after them, as a result of them aiding a young mother who was on her own during labour.

I really liked this! Please send me an ask for a different show/tv/musical/movie/game/comic/animé (Yall know the point haha)

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thronescastdaily · 5 years

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Everything the Game of Thrones cast & crew have said about Season Eight

“I think everyone would agree in terms of saying they think their character endings are just and are the best way to wrap the characters up. Even if, God forbid, some of them might die.” — Isaac Hempstead-Wright

“The end of Jon’s journey, whatever that may be…I was satisfied with how his story ended.” — Kit Harington

“Who knows if it will be satisfying for the fans. I think a lot of fans will be disappointed and a lot of fans will be over the moon, I think. I think it will be really interesting to see people’s reactions.” — Sophie Turner

“Oh fuck the fans! That was a joke! But I don’t know, I don’t know if you can please everyone. I’m sure people will be moaning about something.” — Conleth Hill

“Not everyone’s going to be pleased, because it’s such a big show, and it’s divisive. But I think we have wrapped it up as convincingly and honestly and as cleverly as we could hope.” — Isaac Hempstead-Wright

“I remember I was shooting something else earlier in the year and my mum came out to join me. We sat down one evening and we both said to each other, ‘Let’s project the final season. Let’s say who we think is going to be alive and who we think is going to be dead.’ We did and we were both wrong.” — Maisie Williams

“What I will say is, I’m happy to see more of Brienne of Tarth the woman explored this season.” — Gwendoline Christie

“I am one of the few people who has read the script and I know the ending and what happens. When I read it, I thought it was rather brilliant. I am a bit of a fan of the series as well, and it satiated my expectation and hopes, I felt (it was the) conclusion…But we will just have to see. You know with something this big like Game of Thrones, you cannot please everyone.” — Iain Glen

“I couldn’t control myself. I cried for hours and hours once it wrapped. It was like leaving behind a character that I’ve grown up with. It’s almost like a death.” — Sophie Turner

“I haven’t watched a single series that has a following like Thrones does where everyone is satisfied with the ending. I don’t think that it’ll be any different with this. I think it will divide opinion.” — Kit Harington

“It fucked me up. Knowing that is going to be a lasting flavor in someone’s mouth of what Daenerys is…” — Emilia Clarke

“It meets all my expectations. But you’ll never guess how it ends.” — Iain Glen

“I’m hoping for the Breaking Bad [finale] argument where it’s like, ‘Is that an A or an A+?” —Dan Weiss

“We had such a beautiful time and we have such an amazing cast that has been through so much together. I think there is a real integrity to that and I completely support that and I am sad it’s ending, because I don’t get to go back and work with my friends next year or this year, so that’s sad but I think it’s a good time to. It’s an end of an era.” — Nathalie Emmanuel

“It’s either going to be everything that everyone dreamed of, or it’s gonna be disappointing. It depends which side of the fence you’re going to sit on. I think no matter what you do there’s definitely going to be that divide. It depends on what people want from the final season. I love it, but I don’t know. You never know.” — Maisie Williams

“The fans will not be let down. There are a lot of firsts in these episodes. There’s the funniest sequence I’ve ever shot on this show, the most emotional and compelling scene I’ve ever shot, and there’s one scene where there’s so many [major characters] together it feels like you’re watching a superhero movie.” — David Nutter (Director)

“It fucked me up. Knowing that is going to be a lasting flavor in someone’s mouth of what Daenerys is ...." — Emilia Clarke

“It is what it is, and so that’s what it should be. There’s nothing to say about whether I’d change it if I were in charge.” — Carice van Houten

“Personally speaking I love my journey. I love what [showrunners Dan Weiss and David Benioff] have done. The arc, the journey, every character.” — Richard Dormer

"[The ending] won't go the way some people want. It will be too happy for some people, or too sad, or too whatever. That's the nature of an ending." — Emilia Clarke

“It’s our biggest season by far. It’s only six episodes, but it was the longest [amount of time] we’ve ever shot, the biggest crew, the most extras and stuntmen. More people set on fire than ever before. It was intense.” — David Benioff

“People will see he has a target he wants to kill, and you will find out who that is. There’s also that moment [in “Hardhome”] when Jon Snow was on the boat and the Night King looked at him and raised his arms — there’s a similar and even stronger moment between Jon and the Night King this time.” — Vladimir Furdik

“I definitely didn’t see it coming and I had to get up and walk around, thinking, ‘Oh, so that’s how this all works out!” — Isaac Hempstead-Wright

“We wanted to justify people’s investment for many years and hopefully they will not feel cheated. But we do feel a great deal of pressure to bring this thing to a satisfying close. Hopefully we’ll stick the landing.” — Dave Hill (Writer)

“They went balls out, I think is the term. They could have easily set the same budget as they did for Season 7, but they went bigger.” — Kit Harington

“I remember reading [the ending] going, ‘Wow, thank you David and Dan. Thank you George. What a gift.’” — Rory Mccann

“It’s beautiful, colossal!” — Liam Cunningham

“Everyone has a certain expectation, I guess, it’s been building up so much. But [the ending]’s great, as well, it’s going to surprise you.” — Carice van Houten

“We had such a beautiful time and we have such an amazing cast that has been through so much together. As sad as it is, I think they have not— sometimes with a TV show or anything — it gets to the point where it loses its quality and we have managed to maintain such a high quality and people still want it.” — Nathalie Emmanuel

“It’s really a shame there aren’t any scenes between them, but the storylines just didn’t come together. It was a missed opportunity I think – it would have been really interesting to see that they got on as women as opposed to just fighting, because they’re not that different, they’re both loners.” — Carice van Houten

“There are a lot of things that I think people are going to be unhappy about and also, for the classic storytelling conclusions they want, other people are going to be really happy. But with a show as long standing and popular as Game of Thrones, I don’t think there is any possible scenario in which everybody’s pleased with how it concludes.” — Isaac Hempstead-Wright

“I think a lot of fans will be disappointed and a lot of fans will be over the moon, I think. I think it will be really interesting to see people’s reactions.” — Sophie Turner

"People will scream and people will say, 'That's exactly what I wanted. And some people will go, 'Huh?' my mum, probably." — Emilia Clarke

“When something has been sitting with you for so long, you have such a specific sense of the way each moment should play and feel. Not just in terms of ‘this shot or that shot,’ though sometimes it’s that as well. So it’s not really fair to ask somebody else to get that right. We’d be lurking over their shoulder every take driving them crazy making it hard for them to do their job. If we’re going to drive anybody crazy it might as well be ourselves.” —Dan Weiss

“I think a TV series that’s spanned eight, nine years is an incredibly difficult thing to end. I think not everyone’s going to be happy, you know, and you can’t please everyone.” — Kit Harington

“It won’t go the way some people want. It will be too happy for some people, or too sad, or too whatever. That’s the nature of an ending. Midway through a season, there’s always the idea that this is going to continue and somewhere along the way we’ll make up for it all. When it comes to a conclusion, this is the end. Nothing more is coming, and the certainty of it being over will definitely bother people. But overall, I think we’re going to smash it.” — Isaac Hempstead-Wright

“[Season 8] is mindblowing and horrible and beautiful.” — Kristofer Hivju

note: this post will be updated as new material comes out

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mj-spooks · 4 years

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Did I ever say Leverage Crew as The Doctor's Companions?

Okay so remember that my knowledge of everything past Ten is shaky at best. Also remember that I really, really don’t like Eleven’s run but exceptions are made for certain characters.

Parker is Donna. Parental figure who she can’t measure up to which lead to some... interesting, social skills. Absolutely someone you want to have your back but who you might not expect that to be the case for. Also everything about her makes me sad. Was perfectly impressive on her own but when she found a support network she fucking killed it.

Sophie is River. They have very similar ways of carrying themselves, put up a front of being very self-assured especially when they’re not, and River’s “Hello Sweetie” is just... such a Sophie move.

Hardison is Jack. A bit full of himself, charming, playful. And I know Jack’s got something of an edge since he’s one of the few companions who’s from a more advanced era by default, but he’s still the tech geek. That exchange with Blon Fel-Fotch about the... you know, the thing she was gonna use to get off of Earth. That scene has hella Hardison vibes, okay.

Eliot is Martha, which sounds weird, but hear me out. Eliot’s the muscle, he’s used to being underestimated in terms of his intelligence. Yet, he continually proves that he’s way smarter than people would assume. He’s got a very specific highly technical skillset. Martha’s a black, female doctor, who (from her interaction with the doctor at the hospital in Smith and Jones) probably didn’t get a lot of credit until she was the Doctor’s companion; UNIT only wanted her because of that, not on her own merit, despite her clearly being very good at what she does.

Nate is hard for me. Mostly because I’ve already made an argument for him being The Doctor when I was asked about Leverage Crew as Aliens. Also he’s not... really Rose, or Mickey, at all and that kinda uses up all the companions I’m SUPER familiar with. I could... maybe kinda slightly see him as Rory? But that might just be because Rory has kick-the-puppy syndrome. Are They Alike Or Do I Just Think They Both Deserve Better? No One Knows.

#leverage anon #leverage #doctor who #companions #don't @ me about eleven alright #I don't have a problem with Matt Smith #I have a problem with Steven Moffat #which I think is FUCKING FAIR

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fortunatelylori · 5 years

Text

The “armor” problem

In advance of this post, I have to say that, for what it’s worth, I tried very hard to limit my involvement in this discussion because I’m aware I’m in the minority and despite appearances, I don’t actually like starting controversies or ruffle feathers around the fandom.

But since I have an issue with this and I chose to have a blog, I feel it’s important that I talk about the things that bother me, not just about those that I like.

Also, for the record, this post isn’t meant to attack anyone that likes the idea of Sansa in armor or change their minds. It’s simply meant to lay out why I have issues with both the idea of her in armor as well as the discourse I’m seeing in the fandom for the last few days.

So I’m just going to go through the most important arguments I’ve seen on my dash and explain why they don’t work for me.

Sansa isn’t going to have a metal suit of armor

This is low hanging fruit, guys. Everyone can read and understand what Sophie Turner said about her new costume.

The costume is not Jaime Lannister or Brienne of Tarth-style metal armor, but more like a jet-black ensemble made of thick leather or similar material.

“We [had] the idea of it being very protective and she buttons herself up,” Turner says. “I wanted her to have a bit of armor and be a bit more warrior like. She’s like the warrior of Winterfell.”

(source)

As I said in my initial reaction to the news, this sounds like a more extreme version of her season 7 dresses. I remember watching the season and Sophie walking around stiff as a board and wondering if she could even breathe in those costumes. This feels like more of the same, if not worse. Which, by extension, sounds to me that the hidden POV, Sansa’s outward coolness and detachment is going to continue. I’m sorry if that doesn’t make me happy.

At this point it isn’t even about the direction in which Sansa’s character is going to go in season 8 but rather that I have access to her thought process through her arc, which, for at least a portion of season 8, doesn’t seem to be the case.

Sansa is in good company so what’s the problem?

Other non-warrior female characters have worn costumes inspired by armor seems to be the argument here.

First off, let’s get Missandei out of the way. She’s a tier 2 character at best so I really don’t see how comparing Sansa to her would do Sansa any favors.

Next off: Cersei - as I said in my initial reaction, this dress feels like a season 7 Cersei dress knock off. And by that I mean:

I’m not happy about this because if Sansa’s costume parallels Cersei’s costumes then her behavior is going to parallel it as well. By that I mean: the isolation, the brittleness, the coldness, the aloofness. I was kind of hoping the writers weren’t going to exacerbate that with Sansa but rather that she would become the antithesis to Cersei.

The longer she parallels Cersei, the less time the writers will spend on positioning her as the alternative. I still think that’s where Sansa’s story is going but I was hoping to spend more time there than this dress indicates that I will.

Then there’s the argument of her dress being similar to Jon’s Night Watch outfits. Cool ... however Jon isn’t, to our knowledge, wearing his NW outfit. He is, instead, wearing this monstrosity:

So it’s not very likely to me that Sansa’s episode 3 costume is going to reference his outfit, which brings me back to Cersei.

Also, btw, a couple of weeks ago I remember distinctly all of us cheering enthusiastically when Sophie said this:

“She’s chosen how she wants her hair to be, and she’s finally the leader and influencer instead of being influenced by everyone else.”

(source)

I was kind of hoping her costume would be like her hair and she wouldn’t be “influenced by everyone else” in her costume choices.

She needs to wear armor to be safe and protect herself

Let’s make something clear: if the WW breach the castle walls, leather armor isn’t going to protect Sansa. A soldier/warrior is going to have to step in and protect her (Brienne, Arya, Jon - take your pick) because I doubt the writers will give Sansa a weapon.

Which brings me to one of my biggest issue: this “armor” business is another example of style over substance that the Ds have employed in Sansa’s arc since season 5.

What I mean by that is that they simultaneously want us to see Sansa as badass, tough of nails, brilliant strategist as well as the damsel in distress, naive and victimized when the plot calls for it. Examples:

At the end of season 4 she descends the steps of the Eeyrie wearing her feather dress. This is supposed to mark Sansa’s coming out as a player that starts utilizing her skills to get control of the situation with Littlefinger. Within a few episodes in season 5, LF manipulates her into marrying Ramsay and she is once again stuck being a victim of abuse.

She is locked up in a room as per Ramsay’s orders and she has to beg Theon to help her. One episode later, she picks a lock and makes her escape. You have to wonder why the hell she didn’t just do that to begin with. The answer to my mind is that they wanted to utilize Sansa’s victimization as a development tool for Theon.

She makes her escape from the room, she’s intercepted by Myranda and instead of having a show down between these two women, the writers choose to give that moment to Theon.

Sansa rallies Jon to go talk to the Northern lords. We are lead to believe she knows these people and how to talk to them. In the meetings, she is completely ineffectual and it takes Davos to convince Lyanna Mormont.

Just to make it clear. This isn’t me hating Sansa. This is me pointing out a bait and switch tactic that the writers employ with Sansa over and over again. They want us to believe she is badass visually (because that’s what sells) but then they falter when it’s time for her to actually live up to that. The result is often frustrating: she isn’t allowed to be her brilliant book self but she’s not allowed to be a badass warrior like Brienne or Arya either.

I was kind of hoping season 8 was going to redress that issue and bring show Sansa closer to her season 1- 4 self as well as book Sansa. At this point, I have no reason to believe her armor dress will do that. So in the end, all that armor is going to read like a lot of posturing and the only real message will once again be Sansa choosing to use clothes as a barrier.

Queens wear armor to motivate the troops

Cersei wears armor during the Blackwater battle:

Cersei during the Blackwater battle is a prime example of style over substance, this time intentional. Cersei might be dressed the part of the inspiring queen but she certainly does not do the work: she sits on a chair for most of it, drinking herself into a stupor, traumatizing a 13 year old and being disgusted by the people she’s supposed to inspire.

It’s up to the 13 year old to inspire and give people hope. All the while, sans armor.

I don’t see how this comparison should make me feel better about Sansa wearing armor.

And finally there’s the Elizabeth I at Tilbury comparison .... I seem to remember several people attempting to draw comparisons between the Virgin Queen and Sansa and Sansa and Jonsa stans, myself included, shutting that down.

Is a parallel to one of the most important images of the Virgin queen mythos really what we want for Sansa in season 8? A season where we’re hoping she will get married and have children? I know I don’t ...

#sansa stark #I just know I'm going to hate the costumes this season

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newx-menfan · 5 years

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Thoughts on quentin quire?

I…like Morrison’s Quentin Quire. Every other representation of him is…meh in my opinion.

The reason for this is, is Morrison did some really genius things with the character.

I’ve talked in length on other posts about how Quire was meant to represent extremism and how relevant that is to current social issues. Morrison’s arc with both Magneto and Quire asks the question of: ‘Does sympathy matter when people do awful things?’

Some of the other things I really liked about Morrison’s Quire are:

He is a subversion of Kitty Pryde, in the fact that where Kitty is intellectually ahead of her peers, she is emotionally still a teenager in Claremont’s work-yet Kitty is oftentimes treated like an adult by the other X-Men. They often forget she’s still a child, which is why you have moments like Kitty getting upset with Storms costume change.

But usually Kitty is able to cope with the pressure of being treated as an adult.

In the beginning, Quire has the same issues: ahead of peers academically and intellectually but not emotionally. You have Xavier also essentially treating him like an adult. Where Kitty was able to handle that stress- Quire ISN’T. He caves under the pressure because while he is VERY intelligent-his choices are still being directed by emotions he doesn’t quite have a grip or understanding on.

I also think it’s impressive that as much as Quire builds up his actions being about Carnation’s death and the greater good; at the end it’s revealed to be about his own fears and insecurities, along with impressing the Cuckoos. With comic books still be considered ‘male oriented’, it’s kind of impressive that Morrison represents this as TOXIC.

We see the Cuckoos side of things and that it’s UNWANTED attention. Quire’s treatment of Tattoo isn’t shown to really be any better-he basically treats her as nothing more than a henchmen/sex object. Quire humiliates another student who he perceives as getting female attention and his actions are framed as awful. Quire IS held accountable for Sophie’s death and countless others injuries-which he should be.

While Quire’s insecurities are shown-they’re represented as UNDERSTANDABLE but not JUSTIFIABLE of his behavior.

Quire’s backstory has all the build up for SYMPATHY-but Morrison never really gives it that tone in his writing. If anything Morrison focuses on the waste of talent and pity. You pity Quire for falling into this useless rebellion solely for the sake to rebel vs. characters like Beak or Angel who manage to find meaning in their lives and learning to care for one another, despite going through horrible obstacles themselves.

In many ways I do think there is also the subtle commentary there on the Punk movement and how most 'movements’ more or less sell out. How things start with honorable intentions only to slowly become tainted by consumerism and power.

The problem I have with his other appearances-

Most writers feed into the very thing Morrison DIDN’T WANT: Quire to be sympathetic. Writers essentially put more focus on the sympathy angle and not the terrible things Quire did.

Where Morrison more or less deconstructed the: 'I’m misunderstood’ trope, other writers feed into it.

Morrison’s WHOLE story WAS essentially that neither Quire’s gifts nor his mistreatment justified treating others poorly-other writers COMPLETELY miss that because they either A) Identity with Quire’s misunderstood/unpopular label or B) think his antics are funny…so he for some reason…gets a pass?

The most irritating thing for me with it- is you could MAYBE justify Quire’s rehabilitation to me if he faced ACTUAL consequences for his actions. But he never really does! Pretty much ALL the adults give him a pass.

Then there’s the fact that Morrison’s Quire WOULD NEVER be able to believe in Xavier dream. Quire is far too logical to EVER believe humans and mutants could one day get along. Quire RELIES too heavily on logic and is a nihilist. At least with characters like David you can argue they’re at least hopeful and have a more futuristic way of thought; you can make sense of characters like Prodigy continuing to stay at Xavier’s even if logically he doesn’t always agree. Quire you don’t really have a good argument for WHY he would stay, except to be with his friends that he regularly drops or treats poorly…?

Plus, Quire LIKES having power; you see it with the way he uses his intelligence AGAINST people or even the way he uses his power. Much like Empath/Manuel De la Rocha-he does enjoy hurting people. For that to suddenly change or for him to be part of an organization promoting peace: again makes little sense. (Let’s be honest-Quire has A LOT of similarities to Empath: the difference is, is Empath is treated as a villain and Quire isn’t…)

Then there’s the whole Quire vs. Hellion thing and how writers often times utilize Julian for Quire’s benefit. The thing about this is, is it’s STILL playing into toxic beliefs. Julian is less sympathetic than Quire despite Julian’s actions NEVER leading to people dying, Julian having just as much of a sympathetic backstory, and Julian regularly SHOWN to have healthy dynamics with other women-because Julian fits into the Popular Male Chad type. Quire is sympathetic despite his extremism and questionable treatment of women: because he fits into the unpopular misunderstood smart guy trope.

Then there’s ALSO his relationship with Idie-who he STILL essentially treats the same as the Cuckoos. In Generation X he still feels entitled to be with Idie despite him being the one to regularly treat her terribly in WATXM. Idie being younger than him also comes off as potentially a bit creepy, considering his backstory: that he may be using the inequality for manipulation and control.

Even his relationship with Gwenpool-it starts from Quire REPEATEDLY putting her down for her personality, likes, and dislikes.

So yeah-I personally think writers stripped Morrison’s really well thought out character and a character we REALLY need at this point and time where we as a society are justifying this kind of awful behavior.

#question #answer #Quentin Quire #Kid Omega #Grant Morrison #x men #Marvel #Hellion #Julian Keller #Oya #Idie Okonkwo #the Stepford Cuckoos #Sophie Cuckoo #I might possibly do a larger essay/post on this with scans if I can find the time...

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billxharry · 6 years

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In which I write the majority of Mamma Mia! 3

@nilo2207 had sent a wonderful question about unused Abba songs that made me think of Bill and Harry, and mentioned liking to re-imagine them singing previous songs that didn’t belong to their characters, which I also love to do. I love this question, because I have actually given this some thought before (*way* more than I should have, admittedly, as you’ll see) and because I can’t just associate the songs with them, I have to imagine them being relevant to a plot with them singing them, so because of that I have *large* parts of the third movie all planned out in my little mind. Someone hire me immediately. 🤣

I will put a song list here, and if you’d like, under the read more cut, I will painstakingly explain the context I imagine them in.

(Firstly, apologies to Colin and Stellan, the second movie didn’t give them anything to really sing, so in my lovely imaginary movie, I do the exact opposite.😁 They get more songs than they would ever want.)

Songs we haven’t seen (technically, I am aware two appear on the soundtrack of the second movie, but were cut from the film, so if the scenes are released, I suppose those will get moved to songs I would like re-imagined.)

I Wonder (Departure)- Harry

Head Over Heels- Bill (this song would be reworked pronoun wise and a few lyric adjustments to fit with Bill)

I Know Him So Well (it’s technically from Chess but it can count, right?) Harry and Rosie

The Day Before You Came- Harry (and a new verse at the end written for Bill)

Dance (While the Music Still Goes On)- Bill and Rosie

The Way That Old Friends Do- Bill, Harry, Sam, Tanya, Rosie and Donna (in spirit, the same vein the second movie used her)

As for the songs I like to imagine Harry and Bill signing that went to other characters, I’ve fit them into my narrative, as a medley of sorts, calling back to the first movie-

Take A Chance On Me- Bill

Honey, Honey- Harry (one of my biggest needs is Harry singing this song about Bill, okay.)

Mamma Mia!- Bill,Harry,Sam,Tanya,Rosie and Donna

I Do, I Do, I Do, I Do-Bill,Harry,Sam,Tanya,Rosie and Donna

Waterloo- Bill and Harry, Rosie and Tanya

When All is Said And Done- Bill,Harry,Sam,Tanya,Rosie and Donna

Dancing Queen- The entire cast

Songs that aren’t theirs, that I like to imagine them singing that I didn’t fit it to my narrative- Um, almost every song because everything revolves around Bill and Harry at this point in my mind😆

The original version of I’ve Been Waiting For You (I still really want this one, but the second movie made the reworked version so personal for Donna and Sophie that I can’t actually use it in my never to exist movie. )

The Winner Takes It All if I am feeling particularly angsty

I think that’s the songs, now on to plot. This post is already so long, this read more is going to make it ridiculous. Feel free to skip this. It’s literally fanfiction written in synopsis form? It’s odd.

Sophie needs help running the hotel. It’s become a stellar success after the re-opening, and new offers have come her and Sky’s way. She is finally at a place of peace with the hotel, knowing Donna would be proud, and is ready to take on new opportunities of her own, but with her having Donnie (I am not sure which way they spell it, Donnie or Donny?)she struggles to travel, take on new endeavors, run the hotel and raise a family. She asks Sam for a little extra help at the hotel, and when Sam mentions it, of course Bill and Harry vow to join him.(Dad hi-jinks with the three of them abound, of course, but I also like to think there’d be some depth to this plot, too.)

Yes, it’s your basic cheesy plot, but its Mamma Mia!, okay. I feel that’s acceptable. In this horrendously thought out summary, I will focus mainly on Bill and Harry’s plots, since this blog is focused on them and that’s what the question was in regaurds too. And let’s be honest, I’ve given them the majority of thought.

To actually get on to answering the questions, re: songs, if you’re still with me...

Harry has yet again gone back to his hum drum business world, but as we have seen in the first movie, and even more so in the second, he’s feeling more and more disconnected from that world, and as he ponders going to the island to help with the hotel, which he originally only planned to do for a week or so, he thinks of Sophie, and Donnie (Donny?) and Sam, and an extra emphasis on Bill (and here we’re clued in that Bill and Harry have indeed been together numerous times through out the years, but they’ve never broken up, because they’ve never officially been together) and after giving everything serious thought, Harry decides he doesn’t plan on coming back to London, to his lifestyle, for a good while this time, he wants to be where his family is. This is his spontaneous adventure. He is of course apprehensive, it’s Harry, but he decides it’s a risk worth taking, and he sings I Wonder (Departure) as he prepares to leave.

When we see Bill, also preparing to go to the island, we see he is in the opposite mind set of Harry. He’s not looking at this trip as a risk or an adventure, but rather the opposite, a chance to actually be grounded for a time. We discover he and Rosie have broken up yet again, but this time without Bill being at fault. He has no regrets about how their relationship went this time around, and thinks they can still be great friends. However, he sings a re-imagined version of Head Over Heels, subtly voicing his growing weariness of his lifestyle, and how he’s treated Harry. (His man is one I admire, He's so courageous, but he's constantly tired. Each time that he speaks his mind, He pats his head and says that's all very fine, Exert that will of your own, When we're alone, Now we better hurry. And with no trace of hesitation he keeps going.) Bill vows he will stay at the island longer than the week he had planned.

(Rosie and Tanya will certainly factor into this story too, of course. Sophie and Sky who are in New York, meet Tanya at Rosie’s launch of her new cook book, and after hearing some of the things Sophie had left in charge of the men (deciding how to a crucial suite would be remodeled, being in charge of food for a very prestigious event, the design plan of a new expansion, etc.) Tanya and Rosie decide it’s crucial to join them. Sophie argues in her dads’ favour, “But Harry has great taste.” “Bill is extremely knowledgeable when it comes to food!” “Sam literally designed the hotel in the first place!” But ultimately she realizes that Tanya and Rosie just want to be included, the hotel means a lot to everyone, and Rosie is obviously tired from the book tour, and Tanya occasionally shows the occasional crack in her usual demeanor. Sophie concludes that it would be best if they joined them, knowing they could all use the some of the magical atmosphere the island seems to offer.)

Things, despite getting off to a bumpy and highly amusing start, are actually going pretty well now for the Dads. There’s plenty of moments that showcase that instant friendship the three of them had, as they work through the mishaps, it’s obvious to see, especially in Bill and Harry, the contrasting and yet somehow complimentary way they work together. Harry’s particular ways of solving problems come into play during this time, much to everyone’s confounded amusement. After a particularly good day of being together, Bill decides to confide in Sam, who has somewhat of an idea as to what’s going on, that he wants to give a relationship with Harry a serious go.

As it happens, Harry of course overhears a part of the conversation, but misunderstands, as Harry and Bill so often do, knowing each other so well but somehow being so wrong, he falsely assumes Bill is certainly talking about the newly arrived Rosie. Rosie, who initially did think her and Bill would reunite, also manages to hear parts of the conversation, and concludes Bill is talking about someone else, and Harry and Rosie sing I Know Him So Well about Bill.

When Bill later tries to talk to Harry, he is uncharacteristically nervous, and is having a hard time saying everything he wants to say. Harry further misinterprets it to be about Rosie, and hurt, he confesses how much Bill means to him by singing The Day Before You Came, which Bill sings his own verse of to explain Harry had changed his life too, but Harry doesn’t hear it, as he’s already walked away.

Bill, who is now certain this is what he wants, berates himself for being a coward, when he and Harry had obviously wanted the same things. Now more determined and excited than ever to embark on this brand new adventure, he asks to talk to Rosie to clear the air once and for all. She confronts him about being in love with someone else, and when he confesses, she surprises him by asking if it’s Harry. He admits it is, and she admits she’s always thought there was something between them. Bill never opened up to her as easily and quickly as he had Harry, and never looked at her, or any of the girls she had seen Bill with, quite the same way as he had Harry.

He apologizes to Rosie for never being able to give her the life that she deserved, and she she admits she thinks she forced their relationship on Bill. They sing Dance (While the Music Still Goes On), and after they dance, Rosie chides him, Bill Anderson, of being afraid of anything, let alone Harry Bright of all people. Bill remarks he sees something in Tanya and Rosie that’s perhaps similar to Harry and himself. Rosie agrees that Tanya would be preferable to carbs and they laugh, this time parting amicably, as good friends with a kiss on the cheek.

As well as things have been going at the hotel, things suddenly seem to crash all at once, causing strain on all of the relationships. Bill is upset as Harry is now avoiding him, and as he snaps at Sam over something completely unrelated, somewhere in evolves into an argument with Bill stating Sam wasted most of his lifetime with Donna, something that Sam still struggles with. Tanya, who also knows about Bill and Harry (she told Harry she had seen the sexual chemistry from the beginning, and Harry, feeling she was a close friend, hadn’t felt the need to lie to her) makes a comment to Harry along the lines about there being other lays in the sea for him, and Harry chastises her about there being more to life than sex, especially at their age, something Tanya has secretly been acknowledging herself. Upset, she turns to Rosie and criticizes her for wanting to get back with Bill, not knowing they had broken up for good. The fights come to a head when Harry, once again having awful timing, had witnessed Bill kiss Rosie’s cheek, affirming everything he had thought to be true, at least in his mind, and his frustration at never being a factor in Bill’s life culminates in a huge disagreement between the two, despite Bill trying to tell him otherwise.

The usual magical feel of the island suddenly feels void, it feels no different than the reality all of them had been coming to Kalokairi to escape. Sophie and family return to find low spirits and everyone, despite their promises, planning to leave. Sophie pleads for them to reconsider, reminding them that they had all come to the island for something, and they needed to remember what it was. She leaves with the parting words that the magic never was the island itself, it was all of them finding each other and forming the family that they had. Her mom had brought all of them together, and she didn’t want to have that change just because Donna was no longer there to hold them together.

As they sit and look at one another across the room, they know that Sophie is right. Together they sing The Way That Old Friends Do. During the song Bill and Harry entwine their fingers, Rosie lays her head on Tanya’s shoulder, and Sam sings to the spirit of Donna.

As the song ends, and they all share quiet smiles, Rosie catches Bill’s eye and nods, encouraging him to go on. Bill takes a breath and begins to sing Take A Chance On Me. Despite reluctance at the very beginning from Harry, Bill can see the smile forming and Bill’s confidence grows as he continues to sing, knowing Harry is about to let loose. As as Bill sings, Harry transitions to taking over singing Honey, Honey with gusto, with Rosie and Tanya (and even Sam) joyfully jumping in as his back up girls. The group transitions to Mamma Mia!, the previous feel good feeling back in full force. Bill takes the transition again, changing the tune to I Do, I Do, I Do, I Do, with their friends encouraging Harry to say yes to Bill’s proposal. Harry doesn’t need any encouragement at all, he is just trying to get his I do! in but the chorus and Bill keep interrupting him. He eventually grabs Bill and silences him with a very telling kiss, which leads to the transition of Waterloo, as they’ve finally surrendered to their fears and couldn’t be happier. As the joyous notes end, we get a final, touching moment of the beloved group singing the reprise of When All Is Said and Done, the song mimicking where all of the characters now stand. Sam sings to and with the spirit of Donna, who may be gone but the love, and the family, she gave to Sam remains strong, despite their short time of getting to be together and he doesn’t regret any of it. Rosie is no longer in a hurry to force a relationship, and she smiles at Tanya, knowing her best relationship will always be the one with her. Tanya, slightly worn but always dignified, acknowledges she can have her rousing lifestyle but have actual love as well. (And of course she is not too old for sex. She gets a whoop from Rosie, a suggestive eyebrow movement from Bill directed at Harry, and a bright blush and chuckle of acknowledgement from Harry.) Harry, ever the anxious man, is for once calm, and Bill, ever the man on the move, has no desire to run.

The end comes with the entire cast singing an encore of Dancing Queen, as it’s being danced to at Bill and Harry’s wedding, and a comment about how they are going to need to change the lyric of “only seventeen” to “only seventy” if they plan to continue singing that song is uttered.

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sxpiosexualx · 7 years

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Keep faith Jonsa fam <3

With S07E06 it’s easy to lose faith in the ship and so many people are reasonably upset but fret not! We still have plenty of points that are still as valid as they were prior to this episode.

Let’s go through them and calm down, alright? (For Jonerys shippers, people are allowed to ship whoever they want. Please don’t take this as an attack to your ship.)

Here are some summarised points just to refresh yourself on why this ship makes so much sense!

1) Sansa being the first Stark to reunite with Jon, forming a bond between the two. Think of all how refreshing it was to see Jon and Sansa smile on screen for the first time in forever, and how crucial it is for developing the plot!

2) The marriage symbolisms in the scenes they share. Sansa is cloaked in(what I assume to be) Jon’s cloak when she first arrives at Castle Black. She then cloaks him in the Stark fur she makes him(and he’s worn it ever since - even on the cliff at Dragonstone). They both have also shared a drink together, which just paints more wedding imagery. Not to mention, Jon has promised to protect her(sounds like something you’d vow to your partner).

3) How their scenes are shot in a particular way that may suggest a foreshadowing of them being endgame. Candle lit rooms, gentle snow falling and panned close ups of anytime Sansa’s grabbed Jon’s hand/arm.

4) Bickering like an old married couple while still empowering each other and Sansa reassuring the Jon that he’s good at ruling thus giving him the confidence he needs and reminding him that he’s a Stark to her. Wow I love a supportive dynamic. Nothing but mutual respect from my two children.

5) How well they work together and how they balance each other out. Jon of course being the military man, and Sansa being more politically savvy. Wow, Westeros is shook at this power couple.

6) The Ned and Cat parallels. I don’t even need to get into this one because there are plenty of sources out there that have pointed this out!

7) Littlefinger’s panned close up of him looking at Jon, then looking at Sansa as if he’s putting two and two together. This is incredibly significant considering the event that led up towards it could be seen as Littlefinger trying to see what would make Jon tick.

8) Angry Kitten Jon i.e. the strange way in which we see him react to different people bringing up Sansa. Choking Littlefinger, glaring and not being interested in discussing her with Tyrion, Sansa being the only reason he chooses to spare Theon. Davos’ close up right after his interaction with Theon. Very suspicious.

9) Them mentioning each other even when they’re miles apart. It’s an odd thing to note that Sansa keeps saying she wishes Jon were with her and that she hopes he comes back soon, meanwhile we also have Jon not being able to escape the mention of Sansa.

10) Jon taking notice of her new silk dress. Remember when he said he’d want to see Ygritte in a silk dress... so he could tear it off of her?

11) The forehead kiss and lingering gaze. They could have reshot this if it wasn’t meant to give off any other vibe that wasn’t perceived as brotherly. 10mill for that last episode, just saying.

12) The deleted scene. In which Jon tells Ghost to stay behind and protect Sansa.

13) Name parallels in both the Stark and Targaryen family tree. There was a Jaeherys Targaryen(some people think this may be Jon’s true name) who married an Alyssane(which is remarkably similar sounding to Alayne - Sansa’s adoptive name while she was in the Vale. But even if it turns out his true name isn’t Jaeherys, there’s still the Jonnel Stark that married a Sansa Stark. Now that’s on the nose.

14) Sansa giving his new life purpose. When we see Jon after he’s resurrected, he was ready to abandon his post as Lord Commander. Sansa walks in just in time, and she gives him a reason to fight for - the reclamation of Winterfell. Jon is truly reborn when he resurfaces from the crowd and we see in him something that’s been missing throughout the season - purpose. Then he goes and knocks the sh*t out of Ramsay.

15) The Prince Aemon/Joffrey bit. Ned had promised her someone brave, gentle and strong like Prince Aemon, noting that the match with Joffrey was a mistake. This happens in Season 1 and in the 1st installation of the ASOIAF books. In the 3rd installation of the books, Jon recalls a time where he and Robb would be training as kids, referring to himself as Prince Aemon the Dragonknight.While in the show in Season 7, we see Jon get insulted at the thought that Sansa might think of him to be like Joffrey - to which she says he’s as far as Joffrey as anyone she’s ever met.

16) Sansa’s hair. This is often overlooked but I remember reading that when Sophie Turner got her role, she asked the producers why she had to dye her hair. They told her that it’s actually important and crucial to the plot in some symbolic way. Let me just point out to you how most if not all the women in Jon’s life that he’s been involved with in some way or another has had red hair. While this seems like merely a coincidence that’s not worth bringing up, it could be tied to the validation he never received while growing up - of Catelyn’s(who had more of an auburn shade), and Sansa who took after her mother in never accepting Jon fully.

17) Janos Slynt. Sansa had wished for a hero to behead Janos Slynt(in the books). Jon ends up beheading Janos Slynt(in the books and the show). This has a romantic connotation since the hero always falls for the princess in the songs.

18) How their arcs almost reflect and mirror each other throughout the story. Both Jon and Sansa had romantic ideas of the world that are debunked by reality. Jon believing the Night’s Watch is a place of honour, and Sansa having her whole reality flipped. (My poor bbs </3)

19) How their arcs are at one point reversed. Sansa finds herself born into a position of power in the beginning, while Jon was a bastard. She then at finds herself being the bastard, while Jon is raised up as Lord Commander. This is good to take note of as they now have a better understanding of each other respectfully.

20) How them getting together would literally give them both what they wanted as children. Sansa’s always wanted her prince(and since Rhaegar annulled his marriage, Jon is a Targaryen Prince), and Jon’s always wanted a family and to live in Winterfell(+ deep down I’m sure he’s always craved the validation he was denied as a child growing up in Winterfell - he had hoped Ned would have the King legitimise him).

21) Poetic justice. How fitting would it be to have a situation that started out from a Targaryen/Stark wedding to end with a Targaryen/Stark wedding(this time done right)? Too perfect.

Those are some of the points I could think of straight off the top of my head, without taking into account the points that stand against D*enerys. I wanted to make sure this post was as positive without having to be perceived as me taking a go at D*ny. But, for the purpose of making this complete, let’s see some points against that ship(you can stop reading at this point if you only want positivity, but I’ll try to be as rational!)

1) The argument that J*nerys together makes the Song of Ice and Fire. This is a questionable point since there could be many interpretations of what’s truly Ice and Fire so I’ve never found this to be persuasive. You could argue that Jon is the Song of Ice and Fire himself, since it’s been revealed that he is both Stark and Targaryen.

2) D*enerys’ story arc serves as a foil to Jon’s. The reason why these characters seem alike is because they seem to mirror their positions throughout the story. However, if you take a closer look - D*ny has risen to power on account of her birthright and dragons, and she has actively sought out her power. Meanwhile, Jon finds himself in a position of power not because he wants it or has a birthright, but because people want him to assume that position(like being elected Lord Commander and then crowned King in the North).

3) The highlighted differences between these characters. In Mereen in Season 5, we see D*enerys sentence a man to death but have Daario Naharis carry out the sentence in front of her people as a deterrent. This has always been interesting to me because she cannot bring herself to look at him as he is being beheaded. It reminds me of the saying that he who passes the sentence should swing the sword. In the same season, we see Jon behead Janos Slynt himself.

4) The direction the show seems to have taken in relation to D*ny’s methods of ruling. Yes, I do agree that you’ve got to be more and more ruthless as you hold more and more power but it’s interesting to me how they’ve decided to shoot her scenes lately. There’s her insisting that she is Queen(Tywin: “Any man who must say “I am the King” is no true King.”). Then we are asked to empathise with the Lannister army for the first time in the series - with Ed Sheeran’s cameo meant to humanise the soldiers, and the Field of Fire 2.0 battle being shot from the Lannister army’s point of view - of devastation when going against a weapon of mass destruction(Drogon). To top it all off, she displays ignorant hypocrisy - saying she wants to break the wheel but only when she’s already on top, deflecting and ignoring any attempts Tyrion makes to talk some sense into her(we’ve seen Tyrion trying to deny that she’s being irrational while with Varys, and mentioning that she’s known to lose her temper), telling the army she’s not there to murder them and then giving them an ultimatum of bending the knee or dying, and burning the Tarlys alive. That last point is interestingly enough never brought up with Jon the same way the maesters don’t inform Samwell - which makes me feel like it’s been left out for now, for a reason. It’ll come back and change Jon’s perspective of her further.

5) Contrasting D*ny’s ruling methods with Sansa’s. While D*enerys’ loot train attack destroyed the food that would have fed the people, in the same episode we see Sansa trying to ensure that her people are fed. It’s there for a reason. For us to be able to extract and juxtaposition these two together and start questioning who would make a better Queen - a ‘foreign invader’ and conquerer who uses her weapons of mass destruction to pave a way for her on the Iron Throne, or the key to the North who has learnt how to play the Game of Thrones from arguably a few of the best players(Cersei, Margaery, and Littlefinger).

6) Cersei’s Prophecy of the Younger, more beautiful Queen. People seem to overlook this when it’s actually quite indicative of endgame. People are also quick to assume that D*ny is the Younger Queen that would talk all that [Cersei] holds dear. But how could she be? D*enerys had nothing to do with the deaths of Joffrey, Myrcella, and Tommen. Sansa did. Although unknowingly. Sansa was the one who informed Olenna Tyrell of how much of a monster Joffrey was - this set the chain of events that led to all three of Cersei’s children’s deaths. While Margaery could be perceived as the Younger Queen as well - she had no clue of Olenna’s involvement, and furthermore - Cersei still has Jaime while Margaery has already been reduced to ashes. So, if Jaime were to sometime in the future join forces under Sansa, she would fulfil the prophecy. I highly doubt that Jaime would be keen on joining D*enerys after what he’s seen her do with fire - I’m sure he was getting war flashbacks, poor guy.

**I’d like to mention and give fair warning that past this point, I’ve hinted at some things that happen in E06 so if you want to be absolutely spoiler free, please stop yourself from reading further. Or, you could go ahead and read only the bolded first line of each point!**

7) A marriage between D*enerys and Jon serves no greater purpose. We are reminded that D*ny is barren(please don’t make it seem like I’m picking at this being her fault and hating her for it, I’m trying to be rational), she cannot give Jon an heir(children he’s always wanted though I don’t doubt that if he truly loves someone he wouldn’t mind giving that dream up, so don’t see this as me trying to pit two women against each other for the sole reason of one not being able to have children). So the Targaryen lineage would truly die with D*enerys if this marriage is realised. Furthermore, the North will not accept a Southern ruler, and will always follow the Stark name. If Jon bends the knee, not only will he be giving up what his family fought for, but he would be betraying the wants of his people. If it is revealed that he is Targaryen and it’s made public knowledge, the marriage that makes the most sense to maintain peace is if he marries Sansa - a Stark, since Jon would be abdicating his position as King in the North by bending the knee and Sansa would still be Lady of Winterfell as she has the Stark name. On the topic of children though, for some reason in E06 we keep getting hints of possibly foreshadowings of Jon having his own children - specifically when Jorah doesn’t accept Longclaw, saying it would serve [Jon]’s children well - and then the scene cuts to Sansa and Arya.

8) Jon possibly playing D*enerys is not completely OOC. Take into account what he did with Ygritte, then take into account the number of reminders he’s had this season alone. Sansa reminds him to be smarter than Robb and Ned, and one of the other Northern Lords reminds him that Robb rode South once, married a foreigner and lost the North. What’s the one thing Kit Harrington says about Jon this season? That he’s beginning to listen to Sansa. You may argue that it’s character assassination to have Jon, who’s so pure, resort to manipulation but he could be putting his family and duty first - he needs to do what he can to secure her alliance. In fact I think it’s more insulting to his character if we were to assume that he would deliberately give up the North without first consulting his people, let alone Sansa. It’s way past time Jon plays a little bit of the game, it does his character justice to develop and learn from past mistakes at least that much. Of course, there’s also guilt following the events of E06 during the wight hunt. Let’s not forget D*ny’s prophecy that states that she will be betrayed thrice - once for blood, once for gold and once for love(this last one has yet to happen).

9) The Odysseus/Penelope/Calypso parallel. I saw this going around at some point and it’s been quite popular ever since! Unfortunately I’m not too sure who the original source is, but please feel free to tag them below! They made a link between the three greek characters with Jon, Sansa and D*ny respectfully. Calypso had detained Odysseus on her island for some time, while Penelope stayed behind and ruled on behalf of him in his absence. Odysseus and Calypso end up sleeping together but in the end, he comes back to his Penelope. It’s not to say that I like the idea of Sansa being ‘second’, but I’m choosing to interpret this in a way that guarantees Jon coming back to Sansa despite the boatbang.

That concludes this little list/semi-meta(?) I’ve never taken a go at these, in fact I’m pretty sure this is my second time making my own textpost. Again, the point of this was not to put one character against the other just so we can be satisfied with our ship. You are allowed to ship whoever you want to! I simply felt the need to bring these points up again because the night is dark and full of red-herrings.

Please try to leave this post as hate-free as possible. If it appears on the wrong tag, I apologise. But if you were secure with your ship then you wouldn’t feel the need to come at me. Although if you do still feel the need to defend a certain character, no one’s stopping you - just be respectful! x

Last but not least... can we just... appreciate these two. (I saw this gif online but I’m not sure where, apologies if it’s yours - all credit to you and please don’t hesitate to let me know.)

#jonsa #jonsa meta #jon x sansa #sansa stark #jon snow #anti jonerys

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briangroth27 · 5 years

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Dark Phoenix Review

The final installment in Fox's X-men franchise, Dark Phoenix, is unfortunately not one of their best, but it doesn't deserve the hate it received from critics (or the box office) either. Like Apocalypse (which I also enjoyed for the most part), Dark Phoenix falls into the middle of the X-pack; not too shabby considering there are some legitimately great movies in this series! I was looking forward to this film—I like the cast, they've got most of my favorite X-men on this team, and the Dark Phoenix Saga had been wrecked by The Last Stand so I was ready to see them give it another go—but while Dark Phoenix has some really solid ideas and cool moments, it needed another draft to fully realize its potential (another unfortunate similarity to Apocalypse).

Full Spoilers…

The X-men starting out as public superheroes with a direct line to the White House was a fun change of pace! Giving them fans that cheered them on was a cool reversal from the protest groups we saw in X-men, though for this development to really make an impact we should’ve seen more civilians hating/attacking mutants in the movies beyond the brief glimpses we got in X-men and Apocalypse, both in fight club scenes (The Gifted explored the idea that everyday racism would come from the people just as much as the government in much more detail than the movies ever have). Regardless, I loved that they were able to retain a very "X-men" quality to this new status quo, with mutants’ acceptance hinging on their continued best behavior and the idea that they would unendingly risk themselves to save the world. It was smart to not have bigotry solved only for Jean (Sophie Turner) to wreck it with her newfound power (and also because solving it off-screen would’ve been a disservice to the entire mythos as well as those who face it in real life), but to instead keep them constantly on the edge of losing everything they'd gained. Mystique (Jennifer Lawrence) was absolutely right that mutants shouldn’t have to save the world (or worse, keep saving it) to be accepted by the rest of humanity, and I wish the movie had come back to that point by the end of the film. Her argument with Charles (James McAvoy) ties back to his insistence in First Class that humanity would accept them in exchange for stopping war really nicely though. Forcing mutants to always be over-and-above model minorities works perfectly, but they should've done more with this point instead of just creating a rift between Raven and Charles and using it as stakes for Jean's fall. I would’ve liked some closing statement on where mutants’ standing landed after the events of the film; maybe even Jean or someone making Mystique’s argument to the public to force them to face themselves and the position they’d put the X-men/mutantkind in.

Speaking of Jean’s fall, Phoenix was done much better here than in The Last Stand. I think X2's idea of making Phoenix a natural evolution of Jean is a fantastic choice (as was X2-writer Michael Dougherty’s idea to have her continue to evolve into the cosmic Phoenix in his version of X3), but making Phoenix a split personality ruined that by taking it out of Jean's control and stopping it from being Jean’s story. I’d argue this is the same problem the revised comic canon has, with a space bird taking the place of a split identity but resulting in the same lack of control/meaning/development for Jean’s character. Here, they do the cosmic origin fairly faithfully, but oddly ignore Apocalypse’s revival of the "secondary mutation" plot when Apocalypse forced Jean to evolve into full-firebird status through conflict (which, by the way, is perfect for him). They could’ve easily resolved this rift by having Hank (Nicholas Hoult) tell Jean her powers had been boosted "even beyond what Apocalypse caused" or that En Sabah Nur’s “upgrade” enabled her to survive absorbing the cosmic energy into herself in the first place. As it is, that's not a big leap for viewers to make, but it should've been said in the film.

Getting into the actual mechanics of Jean trying to deal with all this new power, I think this was a mixed bag. I liked her senses opening up at the party and would’ve liked to see that enhanced awareness continue. Her crushed reaction to her father (Scott Shepard) giving her to Xavier because he couldn't forgive her for the accidental death of her mother (Hannah Anderson) or handle raising a mutant child was a rough, powerful reveal that Turner acted perfectly, but then we got to an element of Jean being confused by what she can/should do with all this power rather than acting with that power, which slowed the momentum of her character (and the story). I’d really like to see a version of the Phoenix Saga where Jean runs with her new powers rather than being manipulated or confused about what to do with them, especially if they’re insistent on doing it all in one movie. Her talks with Erik (Michael Fassbender) and especially Vuk (Jessica Chastain) offer insight into what she could be and I wouldn’t want them to have less character-building conversations in favor of meaningless fight scenes, but I wanted to see Jean take action and deal with the fallout of her choices rather than only get to the point where she’s ready to make those decisions in the first place. I would've much preferred her trying to, say, forcibly fix the world so they don't have to keep saving it like Mystique was worried about or something (especially given their obviously strong bond at the beginning).

This is another unfortunate similarity to Apocalypse: while En Sabah Nur said a lot of great stuff in that movie, despite getting rid of all the nukes and leveling Cairo, it felt like we were constantly on the cusp of him escalating things instead of actually getting to see him do what he talked about. Here, I felt like we were on the verge of Jean taking ownership of her powers, only to have her talked into denying them, try to give them away, get captured by the government, get attacked by aliens, etc. Similarly, they really needed to dig into her decision to leave Earth on a bigger level than just being scared she’d hurt people she cared about. Why not make it her choice to see what’s out there and to see what she can become instead (which would be a cool parallel to mutants as a whole not being able to develop while stuck in savior mode for humans)? Leaving Earth should’ve been something that tied to or conflicted with her hopes and dreams for her life during and after the X-men (which would’ve been nice to know before she’s forced to give all of that up in the face of this power), rather than falling back on what feels like a much more simplistic “the power is just too unsafe for her to have on Earth” idea. That idea almost looks like humans are right to fear mutants, because even they can’t safely use their powers here, and that’s the wrong message for a X-men story. I did like that Jean acting with her emotions rather than burying them was shown as a good thing here that made her stronger: that’s a great rebuttal to Xavier trying to block them off and hide pain from her to protect her.

I was very glad that the movie didn't have Xavier blocking her split personality this time, but rather that he'd covered up Jean's accidental manslaughter in an effort to help her have a normal, happy life. That was always my read from the trailers—she didn't seem like she knew she killed her parents in Apocalypse—but I didn't expect the twist that her dad had survived and didn't want her at all and I loved it. I fully bought into Xavier's "you are not broken" reassurance to young Jean (Summer Fontana), so that moment worked really well to help sell the betrayal Jean felt. I wish we’d seen Scott (Tye Sheridan), Ororo (Alexandra Shipp), Kurt (Kodi Smit-McPhee), and Peter's (Evan Peters) reaction to what Xavier did as well though. I also would've liked to see their opinions on Xavier's massive hubris here ("All I did was create a world where we can all live in peace"), as well as his insistence that they be superheroes to earn their keep. Despite the lack of opinions from everyone but Mystique, I did like seeing this side of Xavier and thought it was just as interesting to see how he handled winning as how he’d handled mutants being the underdogs for so long. I'm glad this movie didn't agree with him that it was right to manipulate Jean's mind like Last Stand did, and Charles thinking she shouldn't experience any kind of pain is a nice callback to his own attempt to ignore the pain of the world in Days of Future Past (his older self told him that hope would allow him to bear the pain of the world without breaking, and it seems that Xavier decided he should be the only one to take on that pain rather than let others bear it as well). It also works well as an early form of his attempts to keep mutants safe even to their detriment (like making them superheroes to stay in humanity’s good graces). This habit of ignoring pain was especially evident in his almost cavalier discussion with Hank after Mystique’s funeral (with a side of “you can’t criticize me when I’m hurt too”), and it took me a bit to understand that he’s trying to do the same thing to Hank that he did to Jean, just without using his powers: he can’t process the pain of his loss and doesn’t want to see anyone else “stuck” in their feelings either. I’m glad he actually apologized on the train; I wasn’t expecting that and it was a solid development. Of the things Kinberg improved this time from Last Stand, Xavier as a not-so-great guy was definitely handled much better, precisely because he was proven wrong and dealt with it.

Erik nicely (and finally) transitioned into the peaceful existence promised by Apocalypse, even if (as others have noted) the disconnect between his crimes in that movie and the government respecting him here is a little jarring. I really liked him running Genosha, though it would've been nice to comment that this community was the last stop on the mutant Underground Railroad Mystique was part of in DOFP and Apocalypse. It didn't have to be and worked just fine without that connection, but it would've been nice to say that she helped build his mutant paradise (especially given the impact losing her has on him) and that effort would’ve buttressed her argument with Xavier nicely, since she would’ve had a hand in creating a better life for mutants as well. Erik's talk with Jean about letting go of vengeance once he realized it wasn't helping was solid (he learned something from Charles back in First Class!), but I wanted the movie to bear out that he really had changed. I hated that this movie again relied on a woman getting fridged so Erik had a reason to get murdery (with added Hank rage!): that's lazy, especially since they used that already-tired plot in the last movie. I wish both of these films had Erik as a teacher at the school, but if we couldn't get that bit of 80s comics lore, surely there was another way to use Erik here. Maybe his point of view should’ve shown us what everyday mutants think of the X-men as the poster children of the atom, and how that affects their ability to have a modicum of respect/tolerance from humans. If they couldn’t find something for Erik to do except try to kill Jean, he shouldn't have been included so they could focus on the other characters more. I did like his life on Genosha essentially proving Mystique's point and enjoyed him telling Xavier to shove his speeches, even if it was in the midst of his rage. I'll also say that the ending they found for Erik and Charles—Erik taking him back to Genosha to live out the rest of their lives together—was perfect.

I loved where they took Mystique over these prequel films! We got the badass villain in the original trilogy, so seeing her morals develop for the better in these movies was a breath of fresh air and a chance to explore new, original possibilities (even if they were inspired by her actions in the Age of Apocalypse comics timeline). I liked that she came so far as to be the field leader of the X-men and thought her argument with Xavier here was great. It meshed nicely with her opinion in X2 that they shouldn't have to conform to human appearances (or, here, their expectations) to live in peace. This was an important truth to bring up and I'm surprised that it feels like the first time I've seen it addressed in an X-story. I can almost accept her bristling at fame (and the unfair burden that fame represents) as the reason she shifts into her human appearance so often, even at the mansion, but that needed to be spelled out. I liked the rapport she had with the team, especially Jean, and I wish we saw more of an impact on them when she died (if we're wishing for things, I wish she hadn't died at all). Storm especially should’ve had more of a reaction, given Mystique was her hero. The younger students get a moment, but it's more about Jean as the culprit than Mystique's loss. I wish Mystique had let Jean know she agreed with her sense of betrayal and stuck with her instead of trying to bring her back to the mansion (even if I do see why she'd want to play up their family relationship to calm her down). It also wasn't the best strategy for the team to wear their X-uniforms to meet Jean at her house: what kind of message does that send? Having Mystique run with Jean and perhaps toy with the idea that they could change humanity for the better with Jean’s new powers so they could stop fighting to earn their peace might have been a cool development of her argument. Mystique could've played the role the Hellfire Club did in the comics & the Brotherhood did in X3, but with altruistic intentions. If she had to die, I wanted it to have more meaning and purpose: it should’ve been about her and what she stood for instead of immediately being about Erik/Hank's anger and Jean's culpability. I wonder if being impaled is an echo of how Wolverine “killed” her in X-men?

I was generally disappointed by Hank's role throughout the whole movie. I didn't like that he was in his human form so often: so he never got what Mystique was saying about loving himself as he is, even with the world loving the X-men? That’s depressing and if it was meant to be a conscious decision on his part, it should’ve been explored as his own self-hatred (or maybe he is secretly afraid that humanity will turn on mutants again, so he doesn’t want to fully give himself over to embracing his Beast appearance), not brushed aside like a common secret identity. And shouldn't he have shifted into his Beast form at Mystique's funeral, since his transformation was triggered by his emotions? I liked that this borrowed bit of Hulk mechanics revealed what he truly felt in DOFP: that was a cool comment on trying to suppress your real self and way to dramatize who Hank actually was. Here, he has full control but chooses to look human most of the time, which is not a good look (even if I bet a lot of it was about letting Hoult act more clearly without the Beast prosthetics). Like others have said, Hank getting fired up to kill one of his students is an even worse look and if they had to go there, I wish it had more fallout. The movie doesn’t bother much with the betrayal Scott & Co. must feel about their leader turning on one of them like this (instead, that anger is directed at Erik as if Hank didn’t go to him). Then they just let him come back as the headmaster of a school renamed after Jean after all that? No way. Not that I don't believe in forgiveness, but his actions were brushed aside way too easily (just like Erik and Storm's team-up with Apocalypse was in the last movie). I wish he'd retired like Mystique wanted to (if nothing else, to honor her wishes) and left the school to Scott and Ororo instead (they're nearly 30, after all).

I wish there had been less focus on the First Class characters and more of a passing of the torch here. In fact, we needed a lot more of the younger team members' opinions on everything happening in this movie, especially Jean's turn. They’d spent 10 years fighting and living together, after all: surely they have strong opinions. Ororo gets the point of view that Jean’s shown who she really is and isn’t coming back, but then she immediately acts counter to that by backing Scott’s effort to bring her home (and all of this is beside the fact that she too was party to massive loss of life but got to waltz onto the team, which would’ve been an interesting perspective to bring up). I also would’ve liked to see their reaction to Xavier's betrayal (if I were them, I'd be asking how much of their own lives he might’ve changed) and their fame (how do they see their (much safer) world vs. how do the older characters (who fought for it) see it?) as well as the implications of that celebrity status. The short shrift they got was a big negative for me. I was here to see Jean, Scott, Ororo, Kurt, and Peter as the leads, but we only really got Jean out of this bunch. Scott gets some solid moments with Jean—enough to sell their romance and connection—and it’s obvious there’s a friendship amongst the younger generation of X-men, but I feel like the things Jean was going through should’ve created more shockwaves amongst her closest friends. Even with a relatively small roster, you’d never know Storm and Nightcrawler were major X-men from their showing here and Peter is almost completely sidelined after getting his own spotlight scenes in the previous two movies. I would’ve liked Erik to know Peter is his son after he awkwardly didn’t find out in Apocalypse, though it wouldn’t have fit into this movie as it is. Kurt being Mystique’s son would’ve given a unique flavor to their mission interactions, but I guess we’ll have to wait for the MCU to get that relationship.

Another conversation/argument the younger and older generations of mutants could’ve had was about whether Jean’s powers were acceptable within the mutant subculture (which is something we also need to see more of in live-action), much less to the rest of humanity. How much is “too much” mutation (Kurt might have some feelings on that vs. the others’ invisible mutations, not that he’s any more a mutant than the rest of them)? Is there a line where a mutation just won’t be acceptable to non-mutants, no matter what goodwill they’ve gained in society? What about to other mutants (and crossing that line should really come without also making Jean a killer)? With the X-men becoming accepted as the backdrop, Jean’s evolution into Phoenix and the fight against her could’ve been played as a metaphor for people who accept LGB rights but are Transphobic, which would’ve fit the themes of the X-men as a franchise and would’ve added a new layer of complexity to the mutant metaphor (though as a straight cis guy, I defer to the LGBTQ community on whether that'd actually be a good idea and a story worth telling, or if it would hurt more than it helps; it might be preferred to bring in more trans mutants to the team and deal with mutants who are transphobic rather than piling another metaphor onto it, particularly as Jean is already a white woman dealing with racism & homophobia via hatred of mutants). It could also simply be about power & control: maybe Charles and Erik ironically can’t accept the new kind of mutant Jean is (Hank’s apparent self-hatred probably wouldn’t let him either), and they could’ve built the heroes’ split out of that lack of tolerance rather than killing Mystique.

The D’Bari mostly worked for me as antagonists if that was the way Kinberg wanted to go: they made for solid, tough cannon fodder that required mutant powers to defeat. I appreciate that they included that bit of comics canon, but ultimately them being Shi’ar who’d detected Jean's growing power signature and came to extinguish the Phoenix before it destroyed another solar system would’ve worked better IMO, since they could be the authority figures for Jean that humankind couldn’t (also opening the door to the conversation of whether she needs authority figures or if she should be trusted with her power). As it is, even still being the D'Bari could've worked if they'd come to put the Phoenix Force on trial for destroying their world, with Jean an unfortunate "accomplice" to the power. With them wanting to use the power to recreate their world instead, I would’ve liked more comparison between the D’Bari wanting to reclaim their home and mutants saving the world to maintain their place in society. You can also draw a connection between their willingness to manipulate Jean into bringing back their world (or coaxing her to give up her power so they can do it themselves) instead of the harder path of accepting and dealing with their loss and Xavier trying to ignore pain altogether (I do like that parallel a lot). Both the D’Bari and Xavier reached obsessive levels, and the aliens’ obsession with recreating their home at the cost of Earth serves as a nice foreshadowing of what could happen to Jean if she doesn't deal with her pain. I understand that in a two-hour movie we can’t see nuance to every faction, but it would’ve been nice to see some variance between the D’Bari’s goals: were any of them content to live out their lives peacefully? Were these just the fanatics of their species? Did any of them initially buy in before seeing what Vuk brought them to and thought, “this is too far?”

The action was solid, with a mostly good range of power use (even if they weren't as creatively applied as in previous installments). I liked the space rescue sequence a lot (minus apparently not caring about covering Kurt's hands in the vacuum of space) and the fights in New York City and on the train were well-done and comic booky. I was disappointed in the Quicksilver super-speed scene this time and agree with others on Twitter that every character should get spotlight moments like his. Regardless, it was cool that the team didn't hold back their powers and that the effects budget had the capability to let them cut loose. Weaponizing the team’s powers through the X-jet was a great idea! The one character cutting loose that seems weird in hindsight is Kurt’s murder spree on the train: at first it didn’t strike me as particularly odd, given the X-men aren’t at a Superman-level of not killing their enemies and all comic book heroes tend to get their bloodlust elevated in live-action, but after hearing my brother and others online point it out, yeah, it’s an odd choice for him.

Simon Kinberg’s writing and direction carried over a consistent feel from the previous installments, which (like others have noted) was not the case in the transition from X2 to Last Stand. Whatever my wishes for things that they could’ve covered or done differently here, these at least felt like the same characters we’ve been following for the past 1-3 films. He kept the action clear and managed to juggle the characters who did get the most focus pretty well. The scope could’ve been a bit bigger given Jean’s potential and left me wanting more, but I liked that they kept personal focus on the characters instead of having Jean gain absolute power and then stand behind Magneto, saying nothing. I wish they had used the 90s setting a lot more: the only 90s thing about this is that the space shuttle is still in regular operation. First Class and DOFP used their decades to enhance their respective stories; I’m sorry Apocalypse and Dark Phoenix fell short of that. They could’ve at least made a nod to Scott being an X2-canon boy band fan! I get the reason for the team’s matching uniforms—Xavier wanted an orderly image—but they really should’ve used the 90s-inspired ones from the end of Apocalypse instead. They looked so much cooler! I wish they’d brought back John Ottman’s main theme as the X-theme here, because this score didn’t resonate with me like the music of the previous films did.

Dark Phoenix is definitely a mixed bag, but overall I enjoyed a lot of it while wishing it had taken things further. I admire its ambition, even if its success is hampered by the same mistakes of previous films. I’ll buy it on home video, but for the first time I’m looking forward to the MCU’s X-men relaunch more than feeling sad about losing Fox’s version (though Feige is right to let the franchise rest for a bit). While this movie doesn’t have the emotional impact that Endgame does as a culmination, the X-films (along with Blade) kickstarted the modern superhero film and the weight of the franchise’s reach and impact is not lost on me. This series has been a huge part of my life for more than half of my life and I would’ve followed these actors and characters into another adventure—I still genuinely love or like nearly all of the movies in this 19-year franchise—but I do think they’ve kinda run their course. I’m happy that this felt like an ending even though it wasn’t planned as one, and I know I’ll revisit these films even after Disney releases their take on the franchise (which should really be a long-running TV series rather than films, but that’s neither here nor there). It feels weird to say goodbye, but it’s time.

If you’re into the X-men or a fan of these films, don’t let the rotten reviews scare you off from seeing this one. It’s not perfect, but it’s well-acted and there are solid themes with good action. It’s definitely worth a trip to the theater to see this version of Marvel’s merry mutants on the big screen one last time!

Check out more of my reviews, opinions, and original short stories here!

#x-men #dark phoenix

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