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they-call-me-haiku · 5 months

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whenever someone says they dislike huntlow, the usual comeback from toxic huntlow fans is that “you're a misogynist and you don't want to see the woman in a relationship being stronger”. so i want to address this issue today. is huntlow bad only because willow is stronger than hunter and isn't a damsel in distress?

in my opinion, absolutely not. that's not the case. i myself am a fan of subverted tropes and relationships where the woman isn't just a passive damsel with no personality. i like seeing independent women and i like seeing men being vulnerable for once.

to demonstrate my point on why huntlow doesn't pull off this trope well, let me compare it to a ship with a similar dynamic: sokka and suki from avatar the last airbender.

let's go through each of the reasons why sukka works as a ship where huntlow fails.

1. Does it make sense for the characters?

the first question here is: do the roles of the strong independent woman and weaker man suit these characters?

sokka was introduced as.. just a guy. he was a regular teenager who wasn't trained in combat. he could fight well enough if he wanted to and being the only man in a village full of mostly children and elders, he was the best warrior in his village (if we are even to believe his claims in s1, that is).

suki, on the other hand, was a trained warrior. she had spent her whole life training in combat and fighting to continue kyoshi's legacy. in her very first appearance, suki is confirmed to be a skilled warrior who is much stronger than sokka.

this setup makes perfect sense. it wouldn't come as a surprise later on that suki is stronger or a better fighter than sokka, and would have to rescue him or help him out in a moment of crisis.

now let's come to huntlow. in s2, hunter is introduced as the emperor's right-hand man who is young but powerful. while most of his intimidation factor came from his artificial staff, it was clear that he was not an amateur and had decent combat skills.

this assumption is only solidified when we see him go head to head with amity, only losing because 1. he was using a new staff 2. he was sleep deprived and 3. he was in an extremely erratic emotional state.

willow, on the other hand, was the sokka in this relationship. she was a regular teenager who grew up in a normal family and went to a regular magic high school.

she was certainly incredibly skilled in plant magic but she was not a trained child soldier like hunter. she had a lot of potential to be a good fighter but she had only recieved the education that every other student had recieved. not to mention, most of her stronger magic came from her emotional outbursts.

so.. does the whole girlboss-malewife dynamic work with huntlow? no. it really doesn't. even if willow trained and grew as a witch, there's no reason why she should be stronger and more skilled in combat than hunter, who had to pass seemingly impossible trials in order to qualify as the golden guard. especially since after the first half of s2, hunter was not only weaker than willow but just weak in general.

i get it, he doesn't have natural magic like the others. but he was still shown to be a very competent fighter. he was also shown to be cunning and strategic, being able to find a way out of any situation if he wanted to. but after joining the hexsquad, he is dumbed down to willow's shy and pathetic boyfriend, who doesn't really do much on his own.

2. are they in character when in a relationship?

when writing a relationship, this is really important. if you write a relationship where one or both characters have to act wildly out of character to make sense for the relationship to happen, those characters are not compatible. it's like when your friend acts uncomfortably different around their crush or partner.

let's start with sokka and suki.

sokka is goofy, cynical and quick-witted, with or without suki. his relationship with suki doesn't drastically change his character, but it does improve it. suki helps sokka change his misogynistic worldviews and respect women, but apart from that necessary improvement, sokka is still the same. he is not out of character when he is with suki.

as for suki herself, we don't see a lot of her away from sokka but it's still safe to assume that she is being herself around sokka. she is not forced into a new role in order to be in a relationship with sokka. the times we do see her on her own, she is pretty much the same rational, independent and nonchalant person that she is around sokka.

and yet, both of them have incredible chemistry and very clearly care for each other. it's not one-sided and it doesn't feel unnatural.

but huntlow?

hunter is introduced as a sarcastic and bratty but deeply traumatized teenager. he is quick to start a banter with whoever he is with, he tends to talk too much, and he generally has a nonchalant attitude to cover up with trauma.

but with willow? hunter is not just shy or awkward around her, he is a completely different person. i can understand that being attracted to a person can make you act strangely sometimes. but with hunter, that awkwardness never fades away. he is always blushing around her, he is often portrayed as pathetic and helpless, and constantly needing willow's support and guidance.

as for willow, she is introduced as this insecure and good-natured teenager. after her confrontation with amity, willow is pushed to the back for a while. all we know about her at that time is that she's the supportive mom friend of the group. she builds her confidence after a while but she is still shown as a kind person who doesn't use force on someone else, unless necessary.

but with hunter? willow is suddenly not just confident but also dominant and forceful. she basically snatches him from the sky and drags him to the ground, just to invite him to her flyer derby team. hunter is practically terrified at this point, but it's played off as a fun cute-meet. later, when hunter wants to leave the team for understandable reasons, instead of respecting his wishes, willow once again forces him to join her again.

i wouldn't call willow toxic or abusive, because she isn't. but i would say that she didn't respect hunter's boundaries in the slightest. she doesn't treat anyone else the way she treats hunter. she's not exactly mean to him but she also does not seem to respect him as an individual. again, she is written wildly out of character just so that she could fulfil the role of the “powerful girlboss” in the relationship. and it doesn't help that a dominant and forceful figure is the last thing hunter needs, considering how he was controlled and abused by his uncle his whole life.

3. Equality

it is my opinion that in a relationship, both individuals should play an important role. and they should balance each other out, instead of clashing with each other. it doesn't necessarily have to be an “opposites attract” situation, they just need to have qualities that brings a balance to the relationship.

in sokka's and suki's relationship, we've already established that suki is the brawn. she's the trained warrior and her agility, skill and speed are her strengths. sokka, on the other hand, is the brains. suki is still a rational and smart person but sokka is the strategist, the “idea guy”.

here, there's a balance. neither sokka nor suki are weak or incompetent, they're just skilled in different areas.

but when it comes to huntlow, willow is the brawn while hunter.. does close to nothing. after meeting willow, he's basically useless. the most impactful thing he does is stand up against belos in “Thanks to Them” and rescue willow from a short fall in the next episode. otherwise, he is mostly pushed to the back despite, again, having a personality and his own strengths prior to meeting willow. the problem here isn't that hunter shouldn't be weak or vulnerable, but rather that he is forced into the damsel role when it goes against his original character.

4. Screentime, interaction and development

one thing that huntlow and sukka had in common is neither ship had too much screentime together. suki wasn't officially part of the gaang until s3 and before that, she just gets two interactions with sokka. but these interactions were used to their fullest potential.

when they first meet each other, sokka and suki do not get along well. sokka was convinced that women aren't good warriors and his pride is hurt by the fact that suki is stronger than him, while suki is understandably put off by sokka's misogynistic and condescending attitude. after he tries to teach her how to fight and is consequently defeated by her, sokka rethinks his worldview. he goes back to suki and asks her to teach him how to fight, apologizing and admitting his mistake. suki agrees to teach him and through this, they bond. it is revealed at the end of the episode that both sokka and suki may or may not have a thing for each other. afterwards, sokka has to leave and suki has to stay behind.

their next meeting is a lot more brief but even here, we see a clear demonstration of their dynamic. sokka is overjoyed to see suki but he still hasn't moved on from yue, so when suki confesses to him and tries to initiate a kiss, sokka rejects her. suki apologizes to him later for what happened, and sokka kisses her as a confirmation that he has now moved on and likes her back. we see a clear respect of boundaries and personal choices from both sides.

finally, after suki is captured by azula, sokka frees her and they are reunited again until the end. at this point, they're basically a couple. there's no more awkward blushing or stuttering; they're just a pair of teenagers who are in love with each other. they have a bit of playful banter and they're very casual and comfortable around each other.

suki was originally supposed to be a one-time character so it's incredible that they pulled off on the best ships in atla with her and sokka. their chemistry was undeniable from the beginning, and the writers knew how to expand on it.

now let's come to huntlow. hunter and willow meet each other for the first time in the s2b episode ‘Any Sport in a Storm’. willow is looking for candidates to join her flyer derby team and she sees hunter flying on his palisman. completely unprovoked, the willow who normally never attacked or forced something on people for no reason, decides that the best way to scout this random guy she doesn't know is by encasing him in vines and dragging him to the ground, destroying the concrete in the process. this may have been portrayed as something of a slapstick comedy, but that kind of humor never stuck with me.

after willow explains herself to hunter, he agrees to join her team, thinking it would be an easy way to recruit students into the emperor's coven. fast forward, they get a few members to their group.

hunter notices that all of these members are visibly slacking off and gets discouraged. he turns to leave and willow stops him in his tracks. when she tells him to give them a chance, hunter ‘opens up’ to her a little, by telling her that he had to earn chances, especially as a “half a witch”. this comes out of nowhere because we never see hunter being referred to as half a witch by anyone prior to this. there were certainly characters who disliked him, like lilith and kikimora, but they called him names like “golden brat”. in fact, it's not even clear if anyone other than hunter and belos knows that he has no magic. the whole half a witch line was added so that hunter and willow would have something in common.

willow, instead of reasoning with hunter or respecting his choice to leave, drags him to the ground once again and seemingly teleports him back to the flyer derby team. while this may not have been done with malicious intent, it was still another instance of willow invading hunter's boundaries and forcing him to do something.

hunter is convinced that the team is, in fact, competent. he plays the game with them and has fun doing it. after getting the team captured to join the emperor's coven and saving them from darius, the episode ends with darius turning out to be the good guy and hunter getting a penstagram (or whatever they call it, i forgot).

after this, the huntlow scenes are very scarce. we barely see them interact, especially not alone with each other. in the next episode, we see willow standing up for hunter and hunter blushing and recognizing that the fake willow isn't willow. while this would be sweet for an already established couple, since hunter and willow barely had a bond at this point, it just comes off as hunter being observant. which is somewhat in character for him.

afterwards, there's just a sprinkle of this ship, most of it consisting of hunter being shy and nervous around willow. and willow treating him like she treats everyone else. there's no sign of willow liking hunter back until literally the episode before the finale. where, instead of focusing on hunter's recent trauma with being possessed by his abusive parent and losing his best friend, the show decides to focus on willow's issues instead. of course willow deserves her own arc, but she already got it back in s1. there was no reason to give her ANOTHER issue to work on, just so that hunter can comfort her and give her a reason to like him back.

overall, it was really forced and these two characters never had the kind of natural chemistry that sokka and suki did. their interactions were either awkward or surface-level wholesome. we get exactly two (2) episodes where they interact properly and even that isn't done well. it just feels like these characters were pushed into a ship dynamic that they didn't naturally fit into.

#anti toh #toh criticism #toh critical #toh discourse #toh salt #anti huntlow #anti huntl0w #toh #atla #avatar the last airbender #the owl house spoilers #the owl house salt #the owl house criticism #the owl house critical #the owl house discourse #the owl house

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fandom-discussions-with-avery · 7 months

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Huntl0w isn't good and that's why

A general compilation of all the problems that do not allow me to treat Huntl0w at least neutrally:

1. Distortion of characters. Do you remember Hunter from the beginning of season 2? And that's it, he is no longer with you. Now he is not a soldier who has been training all his life, he is a cute awkward blushing boy who can't do anything without his boss girlfriend. And do you remember Willow, a kind soul who uses her powers only against enemies? Forget, she'll drive a new acquaintance into the ground and won't let him go. They are trying to forcibly fit them into the girlboss x malewife dynamic, and for this they have to change their characters.

2. Lack of chemistry. The same problem as Lumity: all romantic interactions are embarrassments and red cheeks. But if the girls had a Grom dance and more time together, then Huntl0w has nothing.

3. Willow's attitude. She treats him the same way she treats all her other friends right up to the moment when he saved her with the help of the power of the Flapjack. I'm sure the writers didn't do it on purpose, but it turned out that way - Willow fell in love with Hunter only after he stopped being magically disabled. Or in gratitude for the rescue. One is no better than the other.

4. Hunter's awkwardness. The guy has known her for the fourth year, three of which they are clearly together, but still confused as the first time. He's obviously uncomfortable with her. But who is he comfortable with? With Luz and Gus! It is with Luz that he shares secrets, she understands him like no one else. With Gus, Hunter found the best common language, common interests, and in general they are on the same wavelength. Willow and Hunter don't have either. They were able to prescribe normal interaction with everyone except the love interest, and it's so fucked up.

5. The uselessness for the plot. They don't bring anything, even the very parallel with Caleb and Evelyn is ignored. It feels like they got together just to "pair every character" (except for Gus, of course, Gus is our black best friend, he doesn't deserve our attention).

6. Willow is Hunter's authority figure. There is nothing wrong with the fact that a girl can be a leader in a relationship. But when a guy just starts separating from his uncle, whom he considered an authority all his life, and immediately falls in love with a girl who commands him... This is a very bad parallel. Hunter just changed his boss. TOH is not so deep to develop this topic, and it don’t have enough time, so this is definitely a minus for them.

7. Lack of development. Yes, the series was cut. And now you say that this justifies everything. And I will say that it only makes it worse. Already knowing that the series would be shortened, Dana and co pushed a new love line, which "developed" behind the scenes, did nothing for the plot, but spoiled the characters' characters (as if Amity alone was not enough for us).

8. Hunter is the second Caleb. Yes, Hunter's arc has come to the same place where it began. This applies to a lesser extent to Huntlow, it is rather a sin of the plot itself, but in total with the rest of the problems it becomes no less infuriating.

In conclusion, I can say that this ship is definitely not problematic, it's just bad. No one is forbidden to love them, but they should understend why people may not like Huntl0w.

Maybe I'll write the same thing with Lumity, but I'm not sure.

#toh critical #toh salt #anti huntlow #huntl0w negative #hunter toh #willow park

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arowolfwalker · 1 year

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Zeno Robinson is iconic for this

#JDTJFDHFDDJF #I HAVE THE BIGGEST GRIN ON MY FACE RN #toh #anti huntlow #toh spoilers #toh for the future spoilers #the owl house #the owl house for the future #for the future spoilers #the owl house spoilers #the way i havent even seen the full episode yet but XJFJFXMFX #min screams #willow park #hunter noceda #willow toh #hunter toh #even if its a joke idc aro hunter and willow truthers will take what we can get #huntl0w negative

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edalynn · 5 months

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hii hope you don't mind me asking but why do you hate huntlow?? (genuinely curious) I personaly love the owlhouse and kin hunter and it's one if my favorite ships :0

I was just going to not answer this ask as I feel like I've repeated the many reasons I hate hunt/low in the past, but I realize I've never put it all in one place. I'm going to start by linking some asks or posts of mine that are a smorgasbord of things I or others have pointed out regarding what's wrong with the ship itself for some reference points.

X | X | X | X | X | X | X | X | X | X | X | X | X | X | X

And I'll add my "Hunt/low Trope Bingo Card" that gives us a fun diagram of multiple problematic tropes that Hunt/low falls under

Let me start of with the ship itself. Hunt/low quite literally makes both characters' arcs irrelevant. Willow's entire arc about learning to be confident in herself, overcome her bullying, and be strong for herself and her friends is basically entirely erased when you put her with Hunter. Her whole arc is that for a lack of better words, she saved herself and is her own person. Yes, she had the help of Luz and Gus, and later Amity after they began mending their friendship, but her whole thing was being strong and confident on her own. In concept, giving Willow a pretty boy boyfriend immediately makes her arc less impactful than if she's never paired with anyone in the story, because her story is about her own self growth. Not being saved by having a conventionally attractive boyfriend. And in practice, we actually see it happen. Willow is dumbed down and made insanely out of character in almost the entirety of the third season, particularly in FtF. She's shown multiple times throughout the end of the season (Actually, in S2 as well) needing to be physically saved by Hunter specifically when she's always been shown she can stand up for herself before. And, yes, you could argue that "Willow doesn't always need to be the strong one!", and you'd be right! But the fact that the second she becomes friends with Hunter, the way her character is written changes dramatically. We see her need to be saved over and over, and it is literally only by Hunter. If this wasn't the case, I would agree with that, but unfortunately it's not. Her growth and "revolutionary" strong-on-her-own arc is entirely negated if she is put in a relationship with Hunter.

On the flipside, Hunter's arc is just as equally, if not more, irrelevant. Hunter's arc is also about finding himself and finding a group of people that are his pseudo-family. His growth is his journey to becoming his own person, away from his abusive parental figure. In concept, Hunt/low makes all of Hunter's trauma, abuse, and loss meaningless by falling into the trope of "romantic love heals all", which is both dangerous for young fans who will believe that and a slap in the face for every abuse victim that relate to Hunter. It's like saying that nothing bad he experienced mattered or had any lasting impact, because you give him a strong girlfriend and poof! All the problems go away and are solved! And I shouldn't have to explain why that message is insanely harmful. As with Willow, we see this happen in action as well. Any time there's a nod to Hunt/low in the show, Hunter's trauma immediately doesn't seem to matter. This is shown the clearest when he is literally not allowed to grieve Flapjack's death because it "upsets" Willow and he has to run after her to comfort- and later save- her. The writers actually made it so that Hunter is made to feel guilty for showing sadness about Flap because it made Willow feel like she "can't do anything right", making the entire scene about how he had to save her and put his grieving of Flapjack to the side. I think as an abuse victim, this is the one thing about Hunt/low that makes me the angriest. And to dip my toes into a later point- fan creators that ship Hunt/low also do this in their fanworks. Moringmark is a BIG perpetrator of the Hunter abuse denial rhetoric.

The way they are intended to be written, these two arcs contrast each other, not complement them. It makes no sense for them to be shipped. And further, the context & content we get in the actual show has a staggering lack of depth or intention. Every interaction they have feels out of character and as if their personalities have to be entirely re-worked for them to even interact- and those are just the miniscule amount of times they actually interact. There's almost no actual content for Hunt/low in the show, it's never acknowledged by other characters how they do with Lumity and Raeda, and they literally almost never interact in the show until FtF. There is no logical reason that anyone should assume they were even interested in each other (aside from Hunter's blink-and-you-miss-it blushes) and you could probably count on both hands how many times they actually interacted with each other on screen both before the Day of Unity, and until FtF. And I'd go as far as to say that when they do interact, they barely even act like friends. Willow spends almost the entirety of TtT ignoring Hunter (assumably unintentionally, but they almost never interact and the episode was literally based around Hunter as one of the main characters in it) aside from the hair cutting scene- which contextually made no sense to be done by Willow- and the after-possession scene- also made no sense contextually for him to have his head on Willow's lap. She literally makes fun of him at one point, with Amity being the one to basically say "guys that's mean, Hunter I don't want you to get made fun of by others please change". How does any of that read as a healthy or loving ship? Much less even a friendship. By the time they get to the Human Realm, Willow and Hunter have interacted, what, maybe three times? Once during ASIAS (Where Willow forgives him way faster than she should have for her character, when she literally took months to fully forgive Amity- and Ami didn't kidnap her), Once during LR (Where Willow literally is shown as not caring, liking, or trusting Hunter until he says something that proves he was with Gus), and then on the mission with Luz & co. to rescue Amity leading to the Day of Unity. The ship both in context & in practice completely obliterate not only both characters' arcs as stated above, but also wreck their personalities, making them every other generic girl and boy in a generic m/f ship.

Moving onto the fandom in relation to Hunt/low. Let me set the scene. This show, The Owl House, in and of itself is for a Queer audience. That doesn't mean cishet people cannot enjoy it, but it is a silent "stay in your lane". TOH was REVOLUTIONARY for Queer mainstream media with the main character being the first main character on an animated show by Disney to be openly Queer. Luz is openly bisexual and has a girlfriend! She comes out to her mom! Her adoptive mother, one of the other 3 main characters, ends up in a canon relationship with her Highschool Sweetheart, a nonbinary person, and is ALSO openly bisexual! So why is Hunt/low treated as if it is the "third main ship" on TOH, when it ISN'T EVEN CANON. Why is it treated as if it's on the same level as Lumity and Raeda!? Why are there fanartists and other creators that ONLY draw or write Hunt/low!? It's insulting honestly! And I, as a queer person, am being so dead serious. it's fucking insulting. And the way Hunt/low shippers treat people that don't ship it is disgusting. Their go-to defense tends to be "Crying Wolf", or claiming any kind of "-phobia" they can to make their ship seem "more valid". You have no idea the amount of times I and my mutuals have been called "biphobic" or "fatphobic" or any number of other insults. When more often than not, It's Hunt/low shippers that I see ignoring Hunter's bisexuality, or worse, disparaging people for shipping Hunter in a mlm relationship. Or worse- saying certain ships (Huntric/Goldric) are inc/estuous because of Aladarius, which also is not even canon (And neither is "Dadrius" while I'm at it, but that's a totally different argument for a different day.). I see them use his bisexuality as fodder constantly. And I won't even mention the mischaracterization by every single Hunt/low fan I've ever seen, making Willow anywhere from Girlboss to Tradwife or Mom Girlfriend, and Hunter from Malewife to Wet Cat to Protector Boyfriend.

The crew also did not help the situation at all. Multiple Storyboard artists or other crew members have openly admitted to attempting to (or succeeding to) force Hunt/low into the storyline, always at the scolding of Dana who would make them remove it or tone it down as it didn't fit her vision of the show. I've seen multiple crewmembers say this- it's not just a one off thing. Or the crew member who once said she didn't care that the ship name "Winter" (the crew's ship name for Hunt/low) made it hard to block/tag because she liked how it sounded. It's just. I've seen so many instances of Dana's crew being that disrespectful to her and attempting to push their own personal feelings and ideas into the show against her wishes.

I could probably go on forever, so I'll stop here. But yeah. That's the basics of why Hunt/low is a shitty, harmful ship.

#taako talks #asks #anons #the owl house #toh #huntl0w negative #toh hunter #hunter toh #hunter noceda #hunter wittebane #hunter clawthorne #willow park #toh willow #long post

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voids-voyager · 10 months

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I honestly don't believe for a second huntl0w would be even close to as big as it is if Hunter wasn't one of the most popular and beloved characters of the show.

#anti huntlow #huntl0w negative #toh #hunter #willow park #it's such a halfbaked ship they'd get sent home on the spot on the great british bake off #that boys breaking his back carrying it sjfgh

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luisleyyaoi · 11 months

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may you tell me why u dont like huntlow? /gen

i also dont rlly like the ship that much

I’ve headcanoned willow as romance repulsed aroace since season 1 aired and headcanon hunter as aro

I also didn’t like the implications in the show for hunter getting close to her. Like it seemed like he was treating her as a replacement for belos, someone assertive to tell him what to do, someone he was used to being around

Like he LITERALLY only called her “Captain” until season 3 and started liking her bc she pushed him around, pulling him into the ground, telling him what to do, etc. like I don’t think it was intentional but yikes, doesn’t seem very good in that light

Oh and willow didn’t show ANY interest in hunter until he got magic, guess him being disabled made him less desirable what a good message for kids /sarcasm

Also the fandom around huntlow is just not good, like I literally got called a bigot for not liking huntlow despite being someone who they said needed the rep not to mention how the shippers treat willow. They only like her when she can be “hunters strong gf” and can be glued to his side like a puppy

And aside from all that it’s just a REALLY boring ship and iirc was mostly forced in my stoyrboarders so it wasn’t even Dana’s vision for the show, which explains why it was so rushed and left bad implications.

TLDR: huntlow is boring, left bad implications, and made the fandom boil one of my fave characters down to “hunters strong gf who can fix him”

#the owl house #anti huntlow #huntl0w negative

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aroacemisha · 6 months

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Thought I'd make a post explaining why I don't believe Huntl0w is canon, or was even supposed to be, and the "shippy" stuff in the show was just allowed as a treat for crew members who shipped it.

The post is a little long, so it's going under read more.

In the storyboards, the "Huntl0w moments" were more explicitly "shippy" than in the final show. In the final version, they tend to be toned down or even removed completely, even as late as TtT.

Take a look at these comparisons:

storyboard: Hunter changes his expression and pose, drawing attention to the blush, has stronger implications of attraction

final version: no change in pose, only slight change in expression, the blush is subtle, almost unnoticeable

storyboard: a full-face blush on Hunter (similar to how Amity sometimes blushed at Luz), Willow is looking at him while he nervously looks away, the frame is also a closeup focused on them, with Gus being in the periphery

final version: lighter blush on Hunter, who also looks flustered by the embrace in general rather than Willow specifically, all three are equally focused on in the framing

This shot was completely cut, Hunter neither blushes nor puts his hand on Willow's shoulder, and he doesn't even look at her

This particular one could have possibly been a jokey thing not meant to end up in the final version, but it was included as the final shot with the storyboards that did make it to the final version, so I'm including it here:

I'm not gonna put this last one in, since Hayley doesn't want her art reposted, but I would encourage you to look at her storyboard of the Hunter haircut scene vs. the final version. You'll notice that the final version is less "shippy" and completely removes any implied reciprocation from Willow.

And here's a couple interesting captions from Hayley's Tumblr posts:

(Seeing how I've shown that the toning down continued afterwards, even up to TtT, it seems less like "not yet", and more like "it's not supposed to happen at all")

I find it noteworthy that she referred to her "shippy stuff" with Huntl0w as "highly interpretable" even as late as TtT. (And also that she acknowledged it is interpretable, unlike a good chunk of the fandom)

If the ship was truly intended to be confirmed canon, why were the "Huntl0w" scenes still being toned down and made more ambiguous and interpretable even as late as TtT, the episode right before the supposed "confirmation"? This makes me think Huntl0w isn't meant to be canon, but the crew were allowed to have a treat for all their hard work and insert some fan service.

The other reason why I think it's small hints allowed as a treat for the shippers on the crew, rather than an intended storyline, is because all of the "Huntl0w" in the show is very surface-level. It's either not meant to be a romantic arc at all, or it's an extremely poorly written one. There is no written storyline between them, just blushes superficially added on top.

They barely interact on screen between ASiaS (the episode where they just met for the first time) and FtF (the episode where they supposedly "got together", or at least were "confirmed as mutually in love"), and the entire "buildup" to the "romance" is a handful of small, quick blushes from Hunter. I didn't even notice the blushes/realize they were inserted as a "shippy" thing until King's Tide, and I'm not the only one, I've seen other people say they didn't notice either, some didn't even notice the one in KT.

And Willow didn't show any interest/hints of a crush at all before FtF. No blushes, no unusual behavior around Hunter, nothing.

The only arguments claiming she did show hints of a crush are varying degrees of stretches, or even outright insults to her character if you think about it. Because, for example, they imply that she would be fine with seriously injuring a friend, or letting a friend fall to their death, if they weren't secretly her crush.

You may say, "but they stayed at the Noceda house for a couple months, they probably got closer/Willow developed a crush then!", and to that I will point out that there's no change between how Willow and Hunter interacted at the end of season 2 and how they interacted in TtT, so it seems that there wasn't much off-screen development either.

(Also! If all of the important relationship development for two major characters happens off-screen, they should not end up in a romantic relationship together, that is bad writing)

Additionally, neither were shown or implied to be trying to spend more time with specifically each other, they're mainly shown interacting in a group setting with all of the Hexsquad, and the one time it's just the two of them is incidental, Willow just happens to pass by the bathroom while Hunter is cutting his hair and happens to notice it.

Even in FtF, the episode that went harder/was more in-your-face with the "Huntl0w" moments, it remains pretty surface-level. All you'd have to do to completely cut it is remove the blushes. The story/plot or the way they talk to/interact with each other wouldn't have to change at all. There's no written romance, just superficially added blushes.

(And while Willow does finally blush in this episode, it's only after Hunter gets powers and saves her life, which makes it come off as either her feeling like she "has to" reciprocate now, or her only finding him attractive now that he has powers. I'm sure neither is intentional, but just because it's unintentional doesn't shield it from criticism)

And now, let's do a comparison to Lumity and Raeda, in both development and confirmation.

Luz and Amity's relationship was developed on screen for about 10 episodes or so from the start of their friendship to them eventually becoming a couple. They ask each other out on screen, and after that point, they are referred to as girlfriends and kiss on screen several times. They're as explicit as you can get.

Raine and Eda are implied to be exes in Raine's introduction episode, and it's confirmed later, so they have an established romantic history, and after several episodes with on-screen development of their relationship, in the finale, Eda kisses Raine several times after getting them out of Belos's corruption.

As mentioned before, Hunter and Willow barely interact on-screen between ASiaS and FtF, so there's no development to speak of. And in the supposed "confirmation" scene for Huntl0w... All Willow says is that Hunter is important to her too, as a response to the earlier scene where he said "You guys mean the world to me", referring to both her and Gus, and she holds pinkies with him.

Saying someone is important to you is pretty unspecific, and it's especially so here, since she says it in reply to him saying both she AND Gus were important to him (as if to imply they're important to each other in the same way), and hand holding isn't inherently romantic. I don't know where this idea came from, and it really needs to stop.

[Side note: I've also noticed that people who insist that Willow holding hands with Hunter can only be read as romantic don't have the same energy for when Willow holds hands with Amity. It seems that either a) certain people just take whatever position suits their current argument, and take mutually exclusive positions at different times, or b) they are just being heteronormative, or c) possibly both]

As for the epilogue, they do interact again, but there's no blushing, or kisses, or anything like that. They're just hanging out. Again, hand holding is not romantic.

The one "shippy" thing in the epilogue is a single picture hidden away in a dark corner, like an easter egg, and the blush is also once again one-sided from Hunter. Willow looks like she's teasing him.

You may say "but the ending where they're all saying goodbye!!".

And to that I will point out that while it starts with just Hunter and Willow holding each other, Willow also pulls Gus in. This is an Emerald Trio hug, not a Huntl0w hug.

Additional note: the TOH Wiki acknowledges that while the ship was hinted at, it was never confirmed. And those are people who still list Hunter and Willow as each other's love interests, despite the admitted lack of confirmation. Take it from them.

[Edit: I've been informed that apparently users of the Wiki acknowledge that the ship isn't canon, and someone has actually tried to remove the "love interest" bit from the character pages, since it isn't confirmed, but it was reverted, and when they asked about it, they were told that since it was hinted at in the show, it can stay. The insistence on still listing them as love interests, despite it only being speculation/headcanon, is more of a higher staff problem than a userbase at large problem]

As a final note, Dana has done plenty of Lumity and Raeda art, but I'm still yet to see a Huntl0w drawing from her, even though she has posted drawings that feature both of them. I've only seen Huntl0w art from other crew members, but not Dana herself, and I feel like that's worth mentioning.

(She has also explicitly encouraged "death of the author", which, for those unaware or misinformed, means ignoring what the author says outside of the work, and interpreting and analyzing said work based only on what is in the work itself)

TL;DR: The "Huntl0w" stuff in the show is toned down compared to the storyboards, it never got confirmed, unlike Lumity and Raeda, and is likely in the show mainly as a treat for the hard work of the crew members who ship it. What we have in the show gave just enough fan service to shippers, while keeping it ambiguous enough that you don't have to read it as romantic.

#toh #the owl house #owl house #huntl0w negative

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divinemiracles · 1 year

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You know, for someone as reliable and observant as Willow, she didn’t notice anything about how Hunter latched onto her after leaving Belos. I really wish we got to see her talk to Hunter and say that he didn’t deserve to be treated poorly and he’s allowed to express himself and have his own opinions. He shouldn’t look for her to help on his opinions.

I wish Willow wasn’t written in such a way of stripping her character away from being nice to being way too forceful and demanding towards Hunter yet constantly saving him, the damsel in distress. I wish Willow was written to be the true hope and light for Hunter, the one to validate him and make him feel the most worthy of being himself. I wish Hunter wasn’t scared or shy with her, I wish he felt allowed to express himself.

I wish Huntlow was written with actual equal power in the relationship. I wish that Hunter wasn’t dumbed down to just a blushing mess and Willow wasn’t dumbed down to pushing him around and making him blush. I wish their main bonding factor wasn’t their trauma, which had a huge gap that didn’t need to be compared. Both of them were excellent characters and the relationship could have been good, but the crew did not have enough time for it to where it would have been better not to have it at all.

#anti huntlow #huntl0w negative #anti winter #TOH critical #TOH salt #toh criticism

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twilleansparks · 11 months

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Hey! You!

Are you, perhaps, a huntceda shipper, tired of all the sibling bs that gets thrown in your face?

Annoyed with the toxic lum1ty and huntl0w stans with their thinly veiled biphobic takes?

Done with TOH's braindead fandom in general?

Then come follow my sideblog, @hexsquad-siblings!

It's a blog to mock anti-lunter arguements, and reuse them to claim that their canon counterparts are "problematic" and "sibling coded".

It's an all in good faith, satirical blog that shouldn't be taken too seriously. I of course don't think that any of the hexsquad members are canonically siblings, or problematic ships in general.

Happy shipping!

#lunter #huntceda #goldenlight #anti lumity #anti huntlow #huntl0w negative #< not really #but kinda #toh fandom critical #anti toh fandom #ive already tricked one person so far #AND I FEEL SO BAD!#but yeah the blog isnt serious haha #caps in tags #swearing in tags

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verdantmeadows · 1 year

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CW: H*ntlow negativity. If this upsets you or anything, don't read!

My favorite thing about H*ntlow not being canon is we can finally pull to the heteronormative shippers what they pull to queer people. Because you can guarantee if what happened between the two of them happened between two characters of the same gender and then tried to call it semi-canon or implied, people would lose their shit. Because with a same gender couple, they can always just pull plausible deniability and shit like that. And now we can finally do it to a heteronormative ship <3

#huntl0w negative #book of kells #''why are you putting this in the main tags—because i want to have my blog organized''#blame tumblr not me #toh #toh critical

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they-call-me-haiku · 7 months

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i hate the whole "the show was cancelled" excuse that toh fans constantly use to justify poor writing choices. i'm as upset as anyone that toh was cut short, but the show writers got an advantage that a lot of other shows didn't. they were allowed to actually end the show. look at infinity train, for example. it had more seasons planned but the execs decided to cancel it without even giving the creators time to write a proper ending.

so in that case, the writers of toh should consider themselves lucky and make do with what they have. of course, it's most ideal to have the freedom to write the entire show how you want. but when you can't do that but you're allowed to give the series a proper resolution, you have to pick and choose what plot points to focus on.

instead of focusing on the important arcs and plot points (belos's backstory, the collector's origin, hunter's arc, etc) the writers decided to add completely unnecessary ships and additions to further complicate the plot. i'll say it: huntlow was unnecessary, the whole hexside and kikimora thing in s3e2 was unnecessary, the collector's rushed redemption arc was unnecessary. in fact, some of these decisions actively affected the ongoing plot badly (huntlow ruining hunter's arc and bringing him back to square one).

in the end, you're left with more questions than answers. what's with the collector's sudden switch from evil and calculating to poor innocent uwu child? what actually happened in belos's past? how did hunter move on from his trauma without getting any closure and being paired with a person who acts a lot like his controlling uncle? why did amity forgive luz so quickly for lying to her after she asked her not to? what happened to all the witches and citizens of the demon realm who actually followed and worshipped belos?

so yeah, you really can't defend toh with this excuse. if i was making a show and was forced to cut it short, i'd be angry and upset, sure. but i'd try to make the best of it. i would focus on the main plot instead of going after side characters or ships that add nothing of importance to the plot. i still like this show a lot but i'm not going to blindly defend it. it has its flaws and they need to be critiqued.

#toh criticism #toh critical #toh salt #toh discourse #anti huntlow #anti huntl0w #huntl0w negative #i had high hopes for this show i really did #especially around hollow mind era when it really peaked #i was so hyped about belos and how complex he was #but then they scrapped all of the religious trauma in the finale and was like “nah he's pure evil just murder his ass”#i'm not saying i wanted a belos redemption #but his arc was so disappointing #he may not be forgivable but he was a sympathetic character #the reason i loved belos so much in s2 was because of how interesting and well-written he was #they really had to go and ruin that

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