#hdm meta: religion

[lordeasriel]

The Sun never sets on the Magisterium

The reach of the Holy Church in Lyra’s world is the first and most prominent worldbuilding aspect we learn from Northern Lights. It is the most important introduction one has to this world, so vastly different than ours yet so similar still, and it is the one trait that remains constant throughout both trilogies and novellas included.

This is an analysis of the Church in Lyra’s world, so spoilers for all the books and novellas, most likely. I’ll try and make a single post about this but I’m gonna reserve the right of maybe doing two separate parts because it’s a big subject. Under the cut because you know the drill, it’s long lol

The Magisterium was founded after John Calvin’s death, who had been Pope, and had the seat of the Church moved to Geneva. Although it is never clear, the Magisterium’s religious aspects come mostly from the Roman Catholic Church, and Pullman himself said in an interview, that some of its dogma is based on the original puritans. In this world, Calvin didn’t seem to have moved forward with his reform, not needing to break ties with the Catholic Church since he had become the Catholic Church.

Despite becoming a vast collective of “courts, colleges, and councils,” the Magisterium remains rather similar to most Christian branches from our world, at least in the medieval times. They had ties with kingdoms, they had influence over colonization, as well as economic and political influence, not to mention military too.

In Lyra’s world, the Magisterium seems intimately tied to Geneva’s politics, at the very least; it gives the impression that the city is somehow independent from the rest of Switzerland, not unlike the Vatican is independent from Italy. It is however, mentioned that the Swiss War was an armed conflict between England and the Magisterium, which means that they must have a full fledged control over the entire country and not just Geneva, although like most things in these books, this is not a sure claim.

With the Swiss War happening some time around 1933 and 1935, it gives this wild and quite odd picture, of a Church actively trying to invade a country. Although not that foreign a concept, since the Catholic Church was highly involved with the colonization process of our world, they never quite invaded the countries themselves (at least during the 1500s colonizations, as the Crusades were sort of Catholics invading countries lmao), instead joining later as the Monarchs of Europe established outposts and colonies and had already subdued natives in the area.

We do not have an exact date for the Magisterium’s creation, the implication being that it was set somewhere 600 years prior to Marcel Delamare’s acceptance of Leader of the High Council in TSC, it is fair to assume that colonization was already happening in Lyra’s world’s 15th century-ish and that the Magisterium was involved with that much in the same way it was in our world: by converting people, be it by force or by persuasion.

However, in Lyra’s world, the Magisterium stopped being a fully religious entity at some point, and became a full fledge state-like organization, spread all across the globe in different shapes and names, all answering to the bigger and more powerful groups, usually stationed in Geneva: the College of Bishops during its initial centuries, then eventually the Consistorial Court of Discipline, who by NL had become an immensely powerful group, in a power conflict with the less threatening Society of the Work of the Holy Spirit. The CCD being the harshest and most powerful group in the Magisterium, at least during the events of HDM, seemed to have had a lot of power in Geneva and in nearby areas, such as France (as we learn in LBS, the alethiometrists of Paris were sympathetic to the Church, not a surprise given France’s very Catholic Background) and Germany.

With information known from LBS and HDM, the Magisterium seems to hold under its power both the Swiss Army (implied, at least, given the Swiss War being a conflict created by the Magisterium itself) and the Imperial Guard of Muscovy, which seemed to have been under the control of the CCD in particular. It is not explained exactly why the Muscovite Army serves the Church and personally, my knowledge of anything Eastern Europe is very slim, so I’m not gonna attempt to assume much, but given that in TSK it is said they were “sworn to uphold the power of the Magisterium”, it’s possible — and very likely — that the Muscovite government had some sort of deep rooted connection with the Church. Again, not a surprise for Europe, as most countries had monarchies connected to the Church very intimately.

I’m not diving deep into every single one of the Magisterium groups, especially because we know very little about most of them. During the Magisterium congress in TSC, it is mentioned that 53 delegates attended, each representing a group at least (we know both Pierre Binaud AND the President of the CCD attended and they both are part of the same group), so that alone should prove why I couldn’t possibly talk about every single one of them lmao Some of those aren’t even mentioned by name. So, before I tackle on the most important groups and what they represent, I wanted to discuss how the Magisterium’s influence in the world seems to work in a geographical way.

We know for a fact that Geneva — and Switzerland, at least implied so — is absolutely under the control of the Church. Whether they share power with a political group or they are the political branch themselves, I could not say, but at any rate, we know the Magisterium waged war on England under the Swiss banner at one point in time and it’s fairly unlikely that it changed much in less than a century; that alone proves that State and Church don’t seem separate here.

So, how I perceive the Church in Lyra’s world — not just based on preference, but also on what we see of the world, however little it is — is that the further the country and cities are from Geneva, the looser the Magisterium’s grasp is and the more different its approach to power becomes. I use the word ‘looser’ here very lightly, as I don’t think the Americas weren’t oppressed, but I think the Magisterium had a much different type of hold and influence there, and I do think the huge oceans separating Europe from Oceania and the Americas helped change the pull of the Church.

That is different from how it happened in our world, but there is also the difference in how the Magisterium operates; each of its groups work under different philosophies and dogmas and politics. They embody the same religion - Christianism - but they do not act the same way, a good example being how the faithful in Constantinople act towards the Patriarch, while England has very little respect for the CCD, instead just fearing it. In our world, the Church operated sort as an unified front, but in Lyra’s world these many groups are always and constantly fighting each other for power and influence, creating alliances and making enemies between themselves. In England alone, we see that many groups have “outposts” there, the CCD and the Oblation Board, as well as all the Priories and chapels and all that.

There is also the fact that Lyra’s world still seems to have a very independent Africa, as we see the presence of King Ogunwe, meaning that some of the areas in Africa still had independent Kingdoms. This doesn’t mean that the African colonies that did exist weren’t converted or oppressed, but it does mean that these independent Kingdoms resisted the Church’s influence and depending on what group was harassing them, they could succeed in breaking the Church’s ever growing presence. This seems a similar situation for the Americas, given how odd the borders are in Lyra’s world  — South America having way less countries than it does in our worlds and the US never being formed, instead separated into at least two regions, three depending if New France means Canada or yet another part of a possible US.

This is a very ugly map I coloured to show my point lmao The Red Areas cover most of Western Europe and some of Eastern Europe, as well as a part of Russia. All these areas are connected by roads or trains, meaning that the Magisterium’s pull could have started long before airplanes were even created; these means the influence and presence would have existed for a long period of time in most of Europe, meaning More Magisterium Strength. It also covers areas I assumed would be heavily populated areas in the colonies, most of the coastal areas in Brasil, most of the United States because they have two different countries in them  — Texas and New Denmark  — and most of Coastal Australia, although by HDM it’s fair to assume all these regions are no longer colonies, but independent states.

I didn’t go into full detail, there are countries I didn colour with red but that should be red. The Green Areas are contested Areas, places where the Magisterium would have a presence but that would create conflicts for different reasons, being other religions, an uncooperative governement or simply because the group in charge of the area is not competent or too violent to properly establish a presence. This would be the areas in the continents, especially in Africa, where in our world they were heavily colonised but in Lyra’s world they are still independent kingdoms, with military forces and political freedom. Some parts of Russia are green because in Lyra’s world there is the implication Russia is divided into at least three different territories  — Muscovy, Tartary and Siberia  —  and the tartars are considered heretics by the Church; is the territory I painted in green correspondent to actual Tartar regions? I have no idea, but I’m hoping you can forgive my geographic inaccuracy in favour of all this mega meta thing I just spurred. LMAO

And finally the Purple Areas are mostly in places where the weather would be too harsh or where population would be too small to attract the eye of the Magisterium. Ultimately, the Church in Lyra’s world does not only seek to convert everyone and rid the world of heretics, but they also want political influence, economical and military as well, and a small village in Greenland offers absolutely none of that. Some of these areas would also be found in Asia, I believe, especially the very distant and small villages where Islam would have been able to survive. I’ve written a bit about other religions in Lyra’s world if you want to read before going on.

With all that in mind  — and out of the way!  — let’s take a closer look at the Magisterium most notable groups. Starting of course, with the CCD, it’s important to keep in mind that the CCD was the first group created in the Magisterium. It wasn’t always, however, the most powerful one; in Northern Lights, it’s said they only gained notoriety in “recent years”, and we see in La Belle Sauvage that they were already active, including in England, so my assumption is that not only Pullman did a slight retcon here, but also that recent years can mean somewhere in the range of 70 to 100 years. This doesn’t change the fact the CCD became powerful and feared in the Magisterium, nor that their power in England grew considerably between LBS and TAS and then TSC. They are mostly an enforcer type of group  (this is how I refer to them, not canon: enforcer or militia for groups that can arrest, or do any type of Police/militia/army related type of work; dogmatic is how I refer to the groups that usually deal with conversion, reeducation, philosophical works - this isn’t relevant, I’m just. Trying to Make Sense lmao) and as an enforcer, the CCD is violent and ruthless and often lawless in its work outside Geneva.

Despite the fact they are known as a Church Authority, they cannot murder freely and without consequence. In England they act in the shadows during LBS, disguising Robert Luckhurt’s murder as a drowning, and not much is known about their work during HDM, but in TSC they start to openly arrest people for heresy, no doubt a change from the government after Marcel’s rise to power. The CCD seems to act all across Europe and even Central Asia, as we see some of its forces in Constantinople, although it isn’t clear if they were there simply because the Patriarch died or if they are also stationed in the city; the Sublime Porte had its own guards as well, given its status as a government base.

Not much is known of the Society of the Work of the Holy Spirit, except that they seemed less harsh than the CCD and during their quest to find Lyra, they were far more interested in not killing her. Lord Asriel mentions in TAS about his surprise in learning that Lord Roke managed to infiltrate the group, as they were considered impregnable; given Lady Salmakia’s method, and the whole attitude of the group towards the prophecy — it was assumed they weren’t going to do anything about it  — I’d safely assume they were more inclined towards being dogmatic.

Perhaps even older than the CCD, the College of Bishops was perhaps inherited from the Catholic Church before the Magisterium was born. It was known to be the most remarkable and powerful of the groups for centuries after the creation of the Magisterium. Not much is said about them, but given their counterpart in our world, I’d assume they were more inclined towards dogma than enforcer. They are, in our world, a collection of bishops who work closely with the Pope; in Lyra’s world, by the time the Magisterium existed, the Pope no longer existed, so the assumption is that the College replaced the Pope figure altogether, being led by all the bishops in the collection, probably working like a council.

Everything we know about La Maison Juste is confusing and unclear, as most things worldbuilding-wise are in these books. Their official name is League for the Instauration of the Holy Purpose, which coincides with Olivier Bonneville’s description of their work, about “accomodating the life of the world to the life of the spirit”. In other words, it means making sure that daily life can be fitted into the dogma of the Church; it’s vital for the Magisterium to adapt as progress comes. Unlike the CCD, that suppress anything that borders heresy, La Maison Juste seems more inclined towards adapting the dogma so the world can still be within the Magisterium’s expectations.

However, there is mention of La Maison Juste being a place meant to study and examine heresy; there is also a mention in TSC, by Olivier, about how the group changed under Marcel’s leadership, “being a force for good” in the ranks of the Magisterium. What that means exactly, I can’t say; it could be Marcel changed the heresy examination to something more productive and less harsh, or it could just mean he became more strict towards heresy, but that would conflict with Olivier’s description about the accomodation thing. At any rate, I do classify them as dogmatic, and we see Marcel using the CCD to go after Olivier when he flees Geneva; it’s curious because there seems to be implied the CCD outranks his group, but he still uses their forces to do anything remotely violent. There is however, a passage where Lyra lies to a guard from the Office of Right Duty about being part of La Maison Juste, and the guard gets spooked. This is curious because La Maison Juste barely seems remarkable up until the congress happens, but the mention scares the man off.

Two groups  — that we know of  — were responsibility of Mrs. Coulter. The League of St. Alexander seemed to have been created around the same time LBS happens (roughly 1986 if the timeline makes any sense, which probably doesn’t). Hannah Relf learns at some point that Marisa was behind it, but it’s never clear what was her role in it exactly. It doesn’t look like the League was a private initiative, but actually tied to the Church and it was as good a Scam as any. Marisa being behind it didn’t necessarily mean she was the active leader of the group, as they mention a man under the codename Bishop seemed to be in charge, but then again, I cannot say with certainty. They were definitely a dogmatic group, with brainwashing added to the mix, but they seemed to have mutated over time and it isn’t clear whether they only existed in England or not.

The General Oblation Board was Mrs. Coulter’s actual, proper group. It was a private initiative, under the CCD’s rule, but the nature of their work seemed to threaten the CCD’s leadership in the Magisterium. MacPhail made an extra effort to try and dismantle them, especially because he believed that Dust should be destroyed and not examined. I don’t think the fate of the group was ever disclosed, despite their losses, but by TAS MacPhail mentions them as if they are still functioning. Whether they survived up to TSC is not clear, but it’s also hard to imagine what could they have become without Marisa. It’s also interesting to think what would have happened to the Magisterium, had Marisa succeeded in taking the place of the CCD; a private initiative group as the most powerful group in the Magisterium would have caused drastic changes, and probably opened the doors to the big corporations much sooner than Marcel’s work in TSC. The GOB could be classified as dogmatic, given their interest in Dust, but they were far more into scientific research than La Maison Juste seems to be, for example. They also had their own private guards, so no need for the CCD’s enforcers.

I think these groups showcase well how the Magisterium operates. The further we see Lyra go into the East, we realise how the grip of the Church seems lighter and far more military inclined. Is the Magisterium everywhere? Frankly, I don’t think so. I think they have a substantial presence in every country with any amount of political influence or power; any country that might offer opposition. We know they tried to conquer England through an actual war, which is quite odd for a religion, but this is where the Theocracy takes it place in Lyra’s world: they become a single unified front with their country  — Switzerland, in this case  — and the countries where they have more power, they can also control. The places they can’t take by force, they take with dogma and faith, and slowly overthrow these governments by turning their people against themselves.

They are so vastly fragmented that even places with small groups are affected by their presence, no matter small and odd that can be. It’s both curious and terrifying to see a world so deeply overwhelmed by a single opponent, but then again, it’s not that far off our reality. The Magisterium doesn’t represent just faith and religion, but also the big oligarchies, and how governments bend to the will of big companies, and how these aligned forces can become oppressive over time. The Church’s hold across Europe, Africa and Asia was not fast and unpredictable; it was obvious and slow. It started with small conversions and with time, the Church become a force of sustainability for different regions; they become an important part of the enviroment, of the economy, of the security of the country. They become something to be relied on and thus removing them become difficult over time as well, as the micro societies  — the neighborhoods, the small villages  — they become reliant on the Church’s helpful groups to survive, meaning that their fear of the enforcers are overwhelmed by the help of the Chapels, and the priories.

It’s the creation of a co-dependent ecosystem that is very difficult to dissolve without harming innocent people.

#hdm meta: worldbuilding #hdm meta: the magisterium #hdm meta: religion #hdm meta: politics #hdm meta #lmao it's a lot of meta this blog is very organised #the magisterium #his dark materials #the book of dust #meta by effie

[clarabosswald]

@theteadetective‘s excellent post on judaism in his dark materials (particularly in lyra’s world) made me think again about stuff i’ve been meaning to talk about for a while.

funny thing that i realized at a very late stage in my years of being an hdm fan is that i have a unique perspective on the books - that is, as a jewish person living in a jewish community in a mostly-jewish country, reading books in which christianity and the christian view on religion are massive themes. the main thing is - and it’s obvious to me, but not obvious to probably most of you, presuming the majority of the people who’re gonna read this post are christians who live/grew up in christian countries (the exceptions are of course muslim people and people of other religious backgrounds) - but the main thing is, until i was mature enough to understand otherwise, to me, christianity was a fairytale. it was something that happened to other people. it was something that i saw on tv or in movies, something i read about in books.  so when i read his dark materials, it fit. it was fiction, and as far as i was concerned as a child - probably 8 or 9 when i first read the books - christianity fit that fictional setting because i was as disconnected as possible from the concept of it being as actual thing. all that talk of churches and priests and nuns, all the christian imagery - it was just like the archetype of elves and dwarves and such - just a widely-accepted, popular concept that happened to occur in many different works of fiction.  it was why i was surprised, as a pre-teen, when i talked with someone online about our favorite books. my first thought was, of course, his dark materials. when i mentioned the books, her words lost their enthusiasm and she became distant. she said that she didn’t read those books because they talk about killing god and she��s (jewish-) religious. my first reaction was confusion - i mean, even if you believe in god (i never did), the books talk about christianity, not judaism! that’s practically as fictional, as disconnected from real daily life, as it gets, right?  not only was it one of the first, if not the first time i personally encountered the negative impact hdm’s view on religion had on people, but also one of the first times i really realized that christianity has got real meaning for people, beyond the default religion for fictional characters in non-israeli media. and i realize now that if i try to imagine hdm using imagery/concepts of synagogues and rabbis and such, then yes, suddenly it becomes more more personal, much more real. (still not offending though, seeing as i’m not a practicing jewish person and have plenty of criticism on my religion and the way it impacts life in israel)

so on the subject of judaism in hdm aka “where are the jewish people in lyra’s world?”, i have a few theories. my main/base assumption is that they were hated and persecuted by the christian forces/the magisterium early on in history - probably centuries before the events of the main trilogy take place.  basically there are two versions of bigotry against jewish people (we learn that at school but i’m not sure it’s common knowledge for goyim) - traditional antisemitism (pre-19th century; to differentiate it from the modern phenomenon, we tend to call it “hatred of israel”), and modern antisemitism (19th century-present day, includes nazism and all that jazz). while both forms are all for hating the jewish people, there are differences between the two - i recommend you go take a peek at the wikipedia article on antisemitism bc there’s a lot to say on that subject. so basically i think lyra’s world never even got to the stage of modern antisemitism because the magisterium “dealt” with judaism very early on. seeing how hyper-christian the ruling forces in lyra’s world (or at least, the parts of lyra’s world explored in the books so far) are, it’s safe to assume jewish people were viewed as a threat - a problem to be deatlh with as soon as the magisterium gained enough power to do so, and seems like that happened a very long time ago.  [this is all assuming jewish people were not persecuted to extinction at an even earlier stage (during the greece/roman eras or a little after that).] but the question is, HOW did the magisterium “deal” with jewish people?

option one: nazi-style “final solution” genocide. which is possible - the magisterium definitely had enough power to do that - but i’m not sure they ever saw it as enough of a priority to actually dedicate that much effort to getting rid of judaism. so i’m not convinced enough it happened, and not convinced enough it didn’t.

option two: deportation. exiling all jewish people in magisterium-ruled countries to other places - either countries not rules by the magisterium, or maybe special territories designated by the magisterium as fit for jewish people to live in, far away from their precious purely-christian populations. this option makes it possible for large jewish communities to exist peacefully in lyra’s world, thriving just outside of her field of view, waiting to be revealed and explored. so i like this option. 

option three: conversion. forcing all jewish people to convert to christianity - similar (if not identical) to our world’s anusim. meaning that there are possibly people in lyra’s world who publicly live as christians, but privately lead fully jewish lives - while hiding it from the magisterium. i think this is the most likely option to actually happen in canon. 

so basically i think there is a LOT to explore here, either canonically (if pullman will ever want to do so - and yeah, i agree that those allegations that pullman is antisemitic are utter bullshit), or via meta/fanon. the fact that lyra will be travelling to the levant in the secret commonwealth makes me hopeful that the subject of other religions in lyra’s world will be explored (especially now that the magisterium lost its power post-asriel’s war against the kingdom of heaven), but i get the feeling that islam is more likely to be in the spotlight rather than judaism (which is of course welcome at any case, but obviously my personal interest is in seeing judaism as well). 

but in any case i think it’s an EXTREMELY interesting and under-explored aspect of lyra’s world which i hope to see pullman address in some form at some point in the future.

#his dark materials #welp this got a bit long sadkghasdoighs #i'm not sure i worded everything super well but i'm too lazy to rewrite #but i'd love to hear people's thoughts anyway!!!

[lordeasriel]

Idk if you really do meta so no worries if not but I’ve been studying loads of Arab history recently and I keep thinking about the magisterium and how it would interact with other world religions. Like the Arab world and Islam must still exist, and be close by. In the secret commonwealth there is a little bit of this but not loads. Just wondering what your thoughts are?

Oh, yes I absolutely do meta! lmao That’s basically all I do in this fandom! Thank you for the ask, I’ve given this theme some thought before, but never wrote it down.

First, I just want to say that my understanding of Islam is not extensive at all - we do not have a big muslim community in Brasil, especially not in my city which is super small - and despite all my research, it’s not enough to go super in-depth in the nuances of it. So, if you or anyone wants to add to this post, please feel free and encouraged to do so. I’m gonna offer you simply a very broad cultural take on the Magisterium and how it reacts to most religions.

I’m fairly certain Islam exists in Lyra’s world, tho. It’s not openly said so, but there are many instances in TSC that suggests so; what we don’t know is to which extent it exists. There is a direct mention to a niqab and there is a mention of a woman in Smyrna also wearing a headscarf (probably a hijab, maybe? there’s not a lot to tell), and as far as my knowledge goes, these are Arabic cultural/religious items. So, we know at least this part of the culture is there.

Something to keep in mind about Lyra’s world is that it’s a full-on globe, much like ours; that seems dumb when I say it lol but my point is, it’s too big for the Magisterium to reign alone as the sole master of religion with Christianity. Even in our world, the Catholic Church struggled in endless crusades against several different religions, including their own infighting over different variations of Christianity, and despite their best efforts, many religions still exist - some of them small, yes, and damaged by their influence.

There are far too many different cultures in the entire world for a single religion to successfully overtake the entire population. Human beings are so ridiculous random that some of us don’t even partake in religion, so it’s hard to see Christianity as almighty. It is, however, in Lyra’s world, a lot more powerful (think the Mighty Age of the Church in the past, when they consorted with entire kingdoms and their kings and controlled most aspects of life) and therefore it creates this idea of ‘they are alone in their power’. They’re definitely not, the Witches alone prove that; they have their own religion and gods. So do the bears. Their fantasy vibes conceal their cultural variation, but they are part of the world regardless, some of the witches even being pro-Magisterium. Again, random people being random.

Aside from these cultural groups, the general human population has the atheists, which are a divergent religious opinion as well and obviously, the Magisterium tries to suppress them hard - as they offer a lot of resistance to the dogma by improving science. By being more politically involved, the Church succeeds in controlling scientific progress, but still encounters resistance everywhere, no matter how feeble it is (yay, Oakley Street!). And the gyptians with their own secret commonwealth associations also suffer censorship and persecution, so the same probably happened with most religions.

Islam is not a small religion, and it’s also very old in terms of how long its been known to exist, so for it to seem so watered down to a simple cultural lifestyle (at least from what we see in TSC, with the dress ‘code’, I’m not sure if that’s the exact term for the niqab use, sorry if it’s not)  probably means that the Magisterium succeeded in fighting its influence very strongly (probably the Crusades, I’m not super familiar with that subject either). That’s either before or after it became the Magisterium, since we can assume the Church was vaguely similar to our world’s version of it, up until John Calvin’s papacy and the Magisterium’s foundation. And because they succeeded, they managed to contain the strength of Islam and keep it mostly isolated from the Magisterium’s power region which is the entire Europe, pretty much. (we have little information on Africa, and we know next to nothing about the Americas and Oceania, so I assume the Church had different degrees of influence in these areas).

But as we move through the Levant in TSC, it’s possible to see how fragmented their influence seems to be depending on the country. They have the Patriarch’s group in Constantinople, but that is still very, very close to Europe, in a way (I mean it is Europe but also Asia, geography is not my strongest trait lmao). But as Lyra goes deeper and deeper, the less we see official ‘civilised’ Magisterium groups (like La Maison Juste or any types of priories or anything dogmatic) - we mostly see military forces spread thin (mostly and more likely CCD), which to me just seems like their way of trying to enforce the idea of their might to muslim people in the region. However, they don’t seem to have a strong hold on the region and the further you go to Asia, I believe you’d find a very widespread community of people who follow the Islam and not Christianity.

One thing though, is that I think that these major religions (according to wikipedia lol): Christianity, Islam, Buddhism, Hinduism; they are all confined somewhat to specific areas instead of being spread like they are in our world. You wouldn’t find nowhere near as many muslins and buddhists in Central Europe, Western Europe as you would in the Middle East, for example. And this is because Lyra’s world is yet to suffer from a globalization process, (easier transport, communication system, culture assimilation) they are outdated, including the fact that the world seems to be set somewhere between end of Victorian period (late 1800s) up to the 50s, and according to estimates, the world population in 1950 was around 2.5 billion people as opposed to our 7 billion in 2020. So, it’s a lot less people, most of them very spread across the globe, these are all things to consider when thinking about how the Magisterium would handle these things.

China (The Celestial Empire of Cathay and Manchuria in Lyra’s world) is said to be a huuuuuuuuge empire, and they are also implied to be very lethargic politically, which means they probably isolated themselves keeping their own religion and culture very tightly away from the Magisterium. There is a passage about how it is believed the Emperor wouldn’t care much, because he was old and/or sick, if and when the Magisterium invaded the Karamakan desert,  which is a Chinese territory, with several different nationalities of armies. So there is a lot to consider, but I think this gives room for us to see that the Magisterium is not entirely as almighty as it seems or as it tries to look like it is. Its reach has flaws and it mostly seems to operate in Europe and Europe-close regions, such as Northern Africa and parts of Asia.

So, I do think other religions still exist in Lyra’s world - despite not many being mentioned at all - and smaller religions like Judaism and Sikhism, for example, were probably persecuted a lot more due to their status, but in general I don’t believe any of them were entirely erradicated, despite, of course, being oppressed by the Magisterium.

#asks #hdm meta: worldbuilding #hdm meta: religion #hdm meta: the magisterium #thank u for the ask! this was fun to write! #padgae #long post

[lordeasriel]

Whether or not Charles Cape is truly an ally of OS, he raises an interesting idea: there must surely be a number of "believers" in the organization who are simply opposed to the magisterium for political or theological reasons. I was wondering if you have any thoughts on if there are any other OS members in the books who are likely christian, just not in a conventional magisterium way. Personally I could see Godwin and maybe Nugent.

Oh, the chances of a great deal of Oakley Street being Christian are very high, so I wouldn’t be surprised if more of them opposed the Magisterium for thinking they misrepresented their views of the religion. I can Godwin being a christian woman, not a fervent believer, but she certainly would be the sort of woman who believed in God and went to Church on Sundays and had a cross necklace, for sure. She is a practical woman, so she wouldn’t let these beliefs get in the way of her sharp mind, but I can see her as a catholi, easily; it probably became a more recurrent thing after her son and husband passed away (we don’t know but I got the feeling she is all alone now, so maybe being more faithful or more church-inclined was her way of trying to get closer to them.

Nugent I think would be more of a christian by convenience. He is definitely a man who fears God, and he does everything he does keeping in mind that if there is a Heaven, he will be punished and rewarded accordingly and he can live with that. As a politician and a Privy Council member, I imagine that being a Christian by baptism, at the very least, would be considered a common sense thing. He would probably attend Church every now and again, and mostly be bored as he is more inclined to hate the Magisterium as a whole than Godwin is, in my opinion. But I can see him believing in God and being very angry with God over the bullshit the Magisterium does in His Name.

Other faithful members I can think of are Bud and Anita Schlesinger; they’re more like Godwin too; probably attended Church most Sundays, but they prefer the smaller churches, with less of a grandieur feel about them. As New Danish, I think that their relationship with Christianity is different than the European members of Oakley Street. I personally think that the Americas are less policed by the Magisterium due to the distance issues, so how Christianity spread there is fairly different than how England behaves or the rest of Europe do. I think Anita and Bud are more focused on the celebratory aspects of the Church; Christianity for them is cooking stuff for Easter, and Christmas, and finding solace in the wisdom of the Bible they were taught as children. It’s more about the rebirth and renovation other than the punishment and deprivation messages of Christianity - which the latter seem to be more of the focus in European Christianity.

I think Hannah Relf was probably was a believer in God, but she didn’t care so much about the rituals of the Church, which may cause her to be seen as an atheist here and there. She probably attended Church every now and again, mostly out of habit, and she would probably get bored for many of the sermons that she felt weren’t interesting - she’d probably be more interested in New Testament stuff, probably messages about knowledge and kindness and common courtesy - but she probably just attended Church because it was something people did, especially in St. Sophia’s. Most of the colleges had chapels, and while I can see Jordan not having many religious men due to them all thinking they were atheists and better than everyone else for it lmao St. Sophia’s is different because it’s a girls’ college, and most of these girls attend there so they can be on route to finding a proper husband, so common social stuff would be usual in their routine, like going to the church on Sundays and so on. So I can see Hannah attending on Easter, and maybe the Christmas Eve night or the morning after, but her belief is not reliant on ritual.

And the Al-Kaisy couple probably were also Christian. They are said to look like they were North-African, and I’m torn between this because I can’t tell if this meant to describe them physically or if Philman meant geographically, but either way I’m going with geographically because I think it would make sense regardless (Dr. Al-Kaisy has an accent in the audiobook, but I’m also cautious of that because they don’t explain the decision behind accents and all that, so this is hardly canon, but I take it because I like Michael Sheen’s narration a lot). As a I said, being North-African means they probably came from either a colony or a former colony (It’s tricky knowing what is what in Lyra’s world, thank you for nothing Philman lmao), which means that Christianity was probably enforced on their country and that could be in many ways. Usually former colonies have a very fanatical, fervent take on religion, especially because the Church took advantage of these people being abused and oppressed, and they just made things ten times worse, but this depends on where you’re from and when the colony period ended and a lot more than just Evil Church + Colonialism = Fanatics. But, I think the Al-Kaisy couple is very likely Christian, Yasmin probably more of a believer than her husband. I can see her attending Church and being more inclined towards faith, wearing religious jewelry, and so on. She is more cautious and fearful than the rest of the Oakley Street people at her home, and I can see how being part of a shady group like that would wear her down, especially if she believes strongly in God and Sin. Adnan would not be a strong believer; if you asked him if he believed in God, he’d probably say yes, but he is also a Scholar, and like Hannah he would be more interested in the historical value of religion than in the message itself. Whatever rituals he would participate, would probably just to satisfy his faithful wife.

After I wrote all of that - and I’m sorry about the length lmao - I feel the need to say, that like most things, I believe that Faith is very fluid, much like I described the people above. And the Magisterium is very tricky, because it has so many different variant of religious branches that I can see some people saying they’re Christian meaning group A, but other people saying they aren’t True Christians because they don’t follow group B and so on. At their core, they can all be Christian, but they are non-conventional, like you pointed out. I think that of the above, Yasmin Al-Kaisy would be the one closer to convention (aside from Charles Capes, of course, but he is like. A priest lmao) but I also think about how she isn’t European and how perhaps the Magisterium group that had a bigger hold on her country may not have been the same as the Church of England and how that would affect how people saw her. The least conventional is probably Nugent, I think.

Thank you so much for this ask, I’ve been thinking about this for a while and I hadn’t know how to put it into words. I hope this at least answers you ask, cause I usually go on a tangent ashjhashjkash Sorry for the big, long post!

#asks #hdm meta: religion #hdm meta: oakley street #thank u for the ask! #this was fun to write!!! #oakley street #long post #Anonymous

[lordeasriel]

Effie’s Meta for His Dark Materials: a Masterpost

Per an anon request (sorry for the delay, I actually write A LOT lmao) here’s a masterpost to all the meta and analyses and other stuff I’ve written for HDM and TBOD in the past two years. Usually I add spoilers when I write analyses (and I point out which books are being spoiled), but be warned that there may still be some hints about The Book of Dust in these posts.

This will be updated in case I write new things, so you can bookmark it if you want to.

Analysis and other meta posts about His Dark Materials & novellas.

Why Asriel requires no redemption arc?

Thoughts on ‘Uncle’ Asriel.

Oakley Street during His Dark Materials.

The Three Satans: Mary, Asriel & Xaphania.

Why Marisa lied to Lyra about their relation?

Thoughts on Lyra and Asriel’s similarities.

Lyra’s relationship with Asriel.

Thoughts on Ruta Skadi.

Thoughts on the Witches.

More on Witches in Serpentine.

Mary’s role as Serpent.

On Jordan College being conservative.

Analysis and other meta posts about The Book of Dust.

Marcel’s plans during The Secret Commonwealth

Thoughts on Pantalaimon’s feelings during The Secret Commonwealth

Islam (and other religions) in Lyra’s world.

Some thoughts on TSC.

The work of La Maison Juste.

Thoughts on the New Master of Jordan.

Is Simon Talbot very gay for Marcel? (the answer is yes. ok maybe. possibly. very likely.) (2)

The timeline for Lyra’s world. (2)

Did Lyra and Will have sex? (the answer is no)

The Magisterium’s power in Lyra’s world.

Lyra’s future career.

Is the Patriarch a creep? (very likely)

Lyra’s loss of her reading skill.

Does Lyra’s world have Christmas?

The Kings in Lyra’s world. 

The New Alethiometer reading method.

Is Lyra’s portrayal sexist? (2)

Asks with specifics questions/prompts for meta and analysis.

How much influence the King has in Lyra’s world?

Thoughts on Marcel and Marisa’s similarities

Thoughts on Marisa and Asriel raising Lyra.

Does Asriel love Marisa?

Magisterium in the Americas.

Marcel’s Hobbies.

Faithful people in Oakley Street.

How I imagine the La Maison Juste building.

Asriel as a politician.

Marcel meets Asriel.

How Asriel perceives Marisa. (2) (3)

Asriel & the Golden Monkey.

Asriel’s age.

Asriel’s last name.

Asriel’s title. (2) (3) (4)

How poor was Asriel?

If Northern Lights never happened.

Marcel vs Godwin.

Does Jesus exist in Lyra’s world?

Asriel as a narrative tool. (2)

Is Mrs. Coulter a true believer?

Asriel’s (dead) brother.

Lord Asriel vs John Parry.

Nugent vs Godwin. (2)

What happened to Delamare, the father? 

Is Jordan College Asriel’s alma mater?

Mrs. Coulter and the Delamares.

Agatha van Helsing/Dracula vs Masriel.

What are the best and worst thing Asriel has ever done?

Shift of political power in Lyra’s world.

Asriel’s degree.

Lyra’s zodiac sign. Mrs. Coulter’s zodiac sign. Lord Asriel’s zodiac sign.

Bud Schlesinger’s Doctorate.

Worldbuilding in HDM.

Why does Marcel idolises Marisa?

Malcolm as an Historian.

Does Marcel believe in God?

Why Hannah doesn’t live on St. Sophia’s grounds?

Marcel’s accent. (2) (3) (4) (5)

Marisa in The Collectors.

Is Marcel religious?

Thoughts on Dr. Carne & Lord Asriel. (2)

Thoughts on Thorold.

Thoughts on Marcel Delamare. (2) (3) (4) (5) (6) (7) (8) (9)

Thoughts on Madame Delamare.

Thoughts on Lyra & Pan.

Thoughts on Lord Asriel. (2) (3)

Thoughts on Malcolm Polstead.

Thoughts on Glenys Godwin.

Thoughts on Hannah Relf. (2)

Thoughts on Hannah Relf/George Papadimitriou. (2)

Thoughts on George Papadimitriou. (2) (3)

Thoughts on Charles Capes.

Thoughts on Father MacPhail.

Thoughts on Dr. Carne. (2)

Thoughts on Lord Nugent.

Thoughts on Malcolm and Lyra.

Hannah Relf’s messy timeline.

Theories concering all the published works.

Thuringia Potash belongs to the Delamares

Dust is Actually Harmful

The unspoken rule of visible daemons in Lyra’s world.

Mrs. Coulter is separated from the Monkey (aka Water is Wet lol)

Mrs. Coulter is separated from the Monkey, part 2 (feat. @cozcat and @the-blog-of-dust )

Lyra’s world for independent daemons.

Parallels between The Book of Dust & Roda-Viva.

Daemon Forms Analysed (from a book perspective, not daemonism).

Snow Leopards.

Birds of Prey.

Cats.

Coyotes.

Emperor Tamarin.

Wolverines.

Marcel Delamare’s owl.

Glenys Godwin’s civet cat. (2) (3)

Lord Asriel’s Stelmaria.

Madame Delamare’s lizard.

Father MacPhail’s lizard. (2)

Pierre Binaud’s daemon. (2) (3)

Mrs. Coulter’s golden monkey.

Marisa & the Golden Monkey. (Follow up with Book of Dust spoilers.)

Malcolm Polstead’s Asta.

Ruta Skadi’s Sergi.

Dr. Carne’s raven.

Marisa & Hannah’s similar daemons. (2)

Schlesinger and Marcel’s similar daemons.

What daemons portray.

The change in relationship with the daemon as one grows up.

Daemon touching.

Physical Appearance of Daemons. (2)

Cat daemons on the series.

Same gender names.

Some daemon headcanons.

Stelmaria, the monkey and the owl’s settling.

What daemons represent.

Asta, Sophonax & Kirjava.

Daemon’s different personalities. (2)

Are people attracted to specific types of daemons?

Different reactions to separation.

Does the enviroment affect daemon settling?

Do daemons’ personalities also affect their form?

What Songbird daemons mean?

Crows & Ravens

Questions and critiques for the show, film and other adaptations.

Lyra’s colour palette for the film and show.

Masriel in the BBC Show.

If the Film had not been cancelled.

Thoughts on the Film. (2)

More thoughts on the Film.

Lots of thoughts about the Film.

I Have Too Many Thoughts About The Golden Compass 2007 dir. Chris Weitz

The Film’s colour palette.

Mrs. Coulter’s lie.

“Who is Lyra Belacqua?” (aka weird dialogue in the show).

Things I prefer from the film.

Things I hated about Lord Asriel in season 1.

Too much Will in season 1. (2)

The show’s poor worldbuilding.

Asriel’s original casting for the show. (2)

Apparently I have a soft spot for the film and it’s true.

MacPhail not being the head of the CCD in season 1.

Costumes in the Film.

Marisa’s costumes: film vs show.

John Faa & Ma Costa.

How well did the show do on season 1? (this was prior to the s3 announcement btw)

Season two costumes. (2)

Should you watch His Dark Materials? (for non-book fans).

Bird daemon gear on the show.

The cloud pine twist on season two.

The Cardinal in the show.

Main problems with the show.

All my issues with the BBC adaptation.

Asriel’s pinky ring.

MacPhail on the show.

Unifying the Magisterium in the show.

How the show portrays Lyra.

#his dark materials #the book of dust #hdm meta #hdm meta masterpost #meta by effie #i didnt think i had written this much but here we are

[lordeasriel]

hdm’s world setting headcanons

i’ve been setting these up for my current fanfiction, because I needed some solid worldbuilding with just enough canon to make it look plausible. would these even configure as headcanons? or is it meta? is there even a difference? i’m too old for tumblr lol i can never tell.

The Magisterium in the World

Although powerful and influential, the Magisterium has a far tighter grip on Europe and Central Asia than it does on the rest of the world. Its violent nature makes it difficult for them to spread to different countries with different religious beliefs, because they do not go unchallenged, despite their ultimate propaganda. Despite it’s tyrannical and intolerant policy, they have nothing to gain from conquered a dead country, so it’s pointless to wage war when their best tool is subterfuge and shady schemes.

For decades they struggled to take over the Americas and the African continent due to their particularly traditional views on religion, often born in the roots of the indigineous natives of these countries, and considered highly herectical and blasphemous in the eyes of the Holy Church. They had taken over many countries in these regions before, when the Pope still existed, their influence subtle in the everyday life of the citizens, but when the papacy was abolished, and in its place came the collective known as Magisterium, the members of other religions saw an opportunity to rise amidst the chaos. Once the traditional religions of these regions became stronger, the Magisterium had to pick its fights more carefully.

In its intent to conquer these regions, they chose the Americas over Africa due to the size of the African continent, but also because its diversity in tribes, religion and civilization was far too much for the Magisterium’s grasp. And although they did had a presence in New Denmark and Texas, it was of minimal size and not nearly as scary and controlling as their presence was in Europe and Central Asia, but by the time Lord Asriel visited Jordan, things were changing drastically and not for the better, so his entire expedition to the North after that was well-timed, diverting the Magisterium’s gaze from these places so they could focus on their main problem in the North.

The Holy Church’s eurocentrism had its perks to those that, in another world, would end up colonised and converted by them. While they tightened their grasp around the edges of Central Asia up until Brytain, to the farther corners of the North, the rest of the world managed to salvage most of its original culture. The dialects spoken in South America alone were the result of years of an ideological battle against the Magisterium, nearly safe from its destructive intent. The African continent, still a bit more devastated than the Americas, maintained a great deal of its african languages and a hundred dialects, though the closer one gets to the borders with Europe, more one listens to English, French and Russian instead of Swahili, Yoruba and Arabic.

With its intimate relationship with the Muscovite Guard, the Magisterium’s presence makes French and Russian the official languages of almost the entire european continent. Although this is a rule for the collective influence of the group, they also make it mandatory for English to be known by their members, and depending on the group, they can also demand knowledge of yet another language.

Daemons Around the Globe

Speaking of religion, the Magisterium’s views on daemons were short-sighted and delusional, clouded mostly by their prejudice and intolerance, hence the taboo’s extremes conditions That means that in places where its chastising wasn’t as violent, their views were less strong and less followed than most people believed.

Despite this, touching another person’s daemon still is a matter that requires consent and different levels of relationship, depending on where you are and where you come from. In certain countries, such as in Texas, High Brasil or the Kingdom of Auster, due to the hot and humid weather, daemons and human were used to touching each other only when required, especially with daemons with fur, since it was disconcertengly unconfortable to constantly hug your daemon in a 40ºC summer day.

Also, because of the overpopulation, and the loose leash of the Magisterium in these places, it was common for daemons to accidentally bump into a leg or slightly brush themselves when hovering over crowded situations like these (unless, of course, the daemon was porcupine, but the cry would be of pain rather than disgust) and with a quick apology either from the daemon or the human to which they were part of (or both, you never know), all was settled.

Depending on the region, and according to the amount of influence the Church holds over them, some people had the tradition of accesorising their daemons. In certain places it was because of religion, in other it was purely aesthetic. It could be bracelets, rings or collars with pretty gems, permanent or removable tattoos in different colours of ink, in different shapes and places. Daemons with straighter fur or no fur at all were easier to be painted, and amphibious had a prefference for jewelry, since they often have delicate skin. All of these customisations, however its purpose, was never, ever made without the daemon’s consent.

Under the religious aspect of it, they would often paint tribals and symbols on the daemon and the human, if it was for a ritualistic aspect. In places such as High Brasil, Peru and the Kingdom of Auster, countries that retained a certain freedom but still fell prey to the christianism of the Holy Church, would imbbed these herectic behaviour to their christian rituals, such as Easter and Christmas, and even in weddings or baptisms. So every once in a while, when a religious date came closer, and they had service to attend, many people (including the priests, sometimes) would paint different designs on their faces and arms, and paint sacred symbols of old or recent indigenous religions on their daemons, if possible. This started as a way to mix different beliefs in families into one single ceremony, but ended up as a symbol of resistance as the Magisterium frowned upon the practice, then censored it altogether.

feel free to add anything to this!

#his dark materials #hdm #hdm meta #i also have another post on the women's figure on this world #and the colleges + oakley street's job #worldbuilding