#donella hornwood

[thenorthsource]

Noble Houses of the North: House Hornwood

#asoiafedit #valyrianscrolls #valyriansource #asoiafwomensource #thenorthedit #house hornwood #donella hornwood #asoiaf #*edits #ours #by jacoby

[blackbyrenflowers]

I think it really says something about the culture of the North that Ramsay Bolton can abduct a woman, force her to marry him and rape her, and that a man like Rodrik will consider that a valid marriage.

"The monster has tied us a thorny knot," the old knight told Maester Luwin. "Like it or no, Lady Hornwood was his wife. He made her say the vows before both septon and heart tree, and bedded her that very night before witnesses. She signed a will naming him as heir and fixed her seal to it."

And let's remember, Rodrik is far from impartial/biased towards Ramsay. He knows Donella wouldn't have wanted to marry Ramsay. And he still considers it a valid marriage. It's only Luwin, the southron-educated maester who disputes the validity of it.

Some people will point to Maege Mormont and the rest of her house as evidence for the House being more egalitarian than the south. But when you consider bits of First Men-related history like Joffrey Lydden becoming King of the Rock in lieu of his wife, or what happened to the daughters of the Warg King, or the fact that in thousand of years of history there's never been a ruling lady of Winterfell, it suggests that the culture of the First Men/the North is far more misogynistic than the south/Andals.

#asoiaf #asoiaf meta #rodrik cassel #donella hornwood #maester luwin #ramsay snow #valyrianscrolls

[coldraindropsss]

Rodrigo Cassel , Donella Hornwood 🤍🩶

#Rodrigo Cassel #Donella Hornwood #digitalart #asoiaf #asoiaffanart #got #gotfanart #hotd #housetargaryen #housetargaryen🐲 #valyrianscrolls #asongoficeandfire #asoif fanart #asoif/got #a song of ice and fire #house manderly

[beneaththeshadows]

May I offer you some northern/wildling ladies in these trying times? Now with their names cause you just have a lot of brown haired ladies. And yes I totally forgot to post it

Not gonna lie I made some adjustments before posting because some of these are just insufferable, I keep having problems with symetry on the face, I also reached the conclusion that I might suffer from same face syndrome but i'm just here venting a little, it's been a rough week, let's see how much can i learn from this

#ygritte #val the wildling #osha #gilly #dalla #alys karstark #wylla manderly #wynafryd manderly #jeyne poole #meera reed #maege mormont #dacey mormont #alysane mormont #lyanna mormont #barbrey dustin #donella hornwood #asoiaf #my art #fanart #a song of ice and fire #valyrianscrolls #Can you believe that dalla has no official description #Out of all of them #I think Osha gilly and wylla were the worst #But I really enjoyed the results of the mormont women

[asongoftinandfoil]

Just got to the part of ACOK where everyone wants to marry Lady Hornwood, and this gets me every dang time.

Donella Manderly Hornwood has no agency. She's almost always called "Lady Hornwood," because of her husband's lands, not her family or history. She's identified by her property, practically synonymous with it. (Doesn't help that the land is called Hornwood, too.)

She loses her husband and son at the same time. While she's not destitute--Hornwood still has incomes to support her--she is just a symbol of the Hornwood lands and title.

Mors Umber, Wyman Manderly, Wylis Manderly, Leobald Tallhart and his son Beren, Larence Snow and the Glovers: everyone is after her for the land and title that belonged to her husband, not even hers in the first place.

I wonder if Donella ever wanted to marry Halys. He had a bastard younger than his true born son, suggesting he was less than satisfied with the marriage. What about her? What did she want?

And the one person she's interested in, Rodrik Cassel, is too lowly and doesn't have an heir besides Beth. If Rodrik were to marry her, they'd basically be setting up Beth Cassel to have the same problems in a few years.

This system that is so built on heirs, on trueborn sons and indisputable lineage, has to treat women as objects. Subjugation of women is just baked into the whole damn thing. If women have freedom, they might, idk. Have a bastard, or choose not to have children, or literally anything besides being a good lady and broodmare.

Donella Manderly is no more; she's just Lady Hornwood, the vessel by which the Hornwood title and lands are passed. And that is a tragedy that happens well before Ramsay comes into the picture.

#asoiaf #acok #donella hornwood #feminist reading #asoiaf meta

[maid-with-sunset-in-her-hair]

I obviously don’t hate Bran, but also I don’t think we’re supposed to agree with Maester Luwin’s assessment that Bran is good at ruling? Like, he says that after this scene:

"Then let Lord Hornwood's bastard be the heir," Bran said, thinking of his half brother Jon.

Ser Rodrik said, "That would please the Glovers, and perhaps Lord Hornwood's shade as well, but I do not think Lady Hornwood would love us. The boy is not of her blood." (ACOK Bran II)  

The Hornwood’s situation obviously foreshadows what will happen to the North. To avoid a sucession crisis, Bran and Robb are trying to steal Donella and Sansa’s inherances by legitimatizing a bastard son. Because that’s exactly what Bran is doing, even if he doesn’t mean to. The Hornwood lands and castle belong to Donella, she inherited them from her late son. That’s the reason why everyone was asking for her hand, and why Ramsay forcibly married her.

The sympathy Bran feels for Jon’s situation blinds him to the fact he’s being unjust towards Donella. He and Robb are paralleled in their disregard of women and their feelings, and unless the author gives him some character development in this regard, he will never be a better king than Robb.

#asoiaf #valyrianscrolls #my meta #sansa stark #donella hornwood #anti bran stark #anti robb stark

[agentrouka-blog]

Can Jon take Sansa’s name by marriage? Even if he could, to me, it seems that he’ll remain as a snow, (yk he’s motherless, friendless, oathbreaker, turncloak, etc etc, all his speech of that), so if they have children, then they will be bastards? Or is it possible that they inherit their mother’s name? (Maybe King Bran ends up legitimizing them) The whole topic of bastardy and names is very interesting but confusing 😭😭😭😭😭😭

While it is not common, I don't think it would be utterly unthinkable for a man to take his wife's family name, especially if he is a bastard and she is of a nominally higher rank. Though that wouldn't be strictly necessary. Jon could remain a Snow and have Stark children if he is married to a Stark.

Bronn doesn't take the last name Stokeworth when he marries Lollys, but any child they have together is bound to be a Stokeworth, most likely.

Changing one's name is definitely possible, in general:

"I will, ser," said Leobald, and only then raised the matter of Lady Hornwood. Poor thing, with no husband to defend her lands nor son to inherit. His own lady wife was a Hornwood, sister to the late Lord Halys, doubtless they recalled. "An empty hall is a sad one. I had a thought to send my younger son to Lady Donella to foster as her own. Beren is near ten, a likely lad, and her own nephew. He would cheer her, I am certain, and perhaps he would even take the name Hornwood . . ." (ACOK, Bran II)

A child born in wedlock is not a bastard, even if a parent is a bastard. And people have changed their last names specifically to make this distinction:

 "She was the fairest treasure of the Maidenvault. Lord Oakenfist the great admiral lost his heart to her, though he was married to another. She gave their son the bastard name of 'Waters' in honor of his father, and he grew to be a great knight, as did his own son, who put the 'Long' before the 'Waters' so men might know that he was not basely born himself. So I have a little dragon in me." (AFFC, Jaime I)

Then there's the story of the Karstarks, whose name evolved from the original Stark name (though no bastardy was involved).

Names can be flexible.

Plus, by the time we get toward the ending of the books, there is bound to be room for some changes in social mores and traditions, given the levels of general upheaval. They will not just return to the old status quo completely. Not in terms of female inheritance, probably, and not in terms of bastardy.

#jon snow #names in asoiaf #jonsa #bastardy

[catofoldstones]

I'm sorry but the post breaking down the Arya-Jeyne-North angle makes no sense. The Boltons are claiming Winterfell through the marriage to Arya aka Jeyne who is considered the Lady of Winterfell by her own birthright. They're not trying to claim Winterfell was given to them by the crown or no longer belongs to the Starks. Ramsay didn't even want to get married at Winterfell when Roose made the call to move the wedding location from Barrowton. He's claiming himself Lord of Winterfell the same way he claimed himself Lord of Hornwood through the forced marriage to Lady Donella and even Lady Dustin says him keeping his title is dependent on how he treats his wife. He needs the marriages to claim those titles, not the other way around. At no point in Dance is Jeyne ever considered Lady Bolton, she's always called Lady Arya. That's like arguing Sansa's marriage to Tyrion means the claim to Winterfell comes from Tyrion, not Sansa.

You can argue that Jeyne and Ramsay's marriage is invalid because both got married under false pretenses as the bride was pretending to be someone else, but that wouldn't negate Arya's position as Lady of Winterfell if she intends to claim the title. I think it's intentional on GRRM's part to make the question of Stark succession jumbled enough that all five of them can technically stake their claim whether through birth order, sex, legitimized degrees, might makes right and the power behind them, or simply having the claim bestowed on them before the others make themselves known.

Buckle up, it’s a long one.

I am going to go on a limb here and presume you didn’t read the whole post, did you? I literally said it a million and one times that Arya’s claim comes from her being a Stark. That is the entire point of my post.

The north believing that Jeyne is Arya (“Lady Aryq”) doesn’t make Arya Jeyne or the Lady of Winterfell by proxy. Y’all are literally running around in circles here, nothing makes sense. At one point you are claiming that Ramsay is claiming his authority through Arya because she already is the lady of Winterfell and on the other hand you’re saying that bringing Arya to the north and marrying her to Ramsay made her the Lady of Winterfell in the eyes of the Northern Lords and the readers. Make it make sense. Anyway, Lady is a title granted to all noblewomen of higher houses, a lot like how Miss/Mister worked in the 1800s to now (sort of). Arya would be Lady Arya of House Stark regardless of whether she is the heir to House Stark or not. The Lady Stark or the Lady of Winterfell will only be Catelyn Stark as it is a social position granted to the wife of the head of the House. If she had a sister-in-law, say Benjen didn’t go to the nights watch and got married, that woman would also be Lady Stark (or Lady her-maiden-name) but she would not be the Lady of Winterfell, are you getting me? The people here could be referring to Arya as ‘Lady’ because she’s a highborn girl and comes from the most noble house of the north. That makes her one of the people with the highest social standing; which I feel warrants the use of the word Lady, not to be confused with the feudal position.

I know you’re trying to play the whole Arya is the last of Starks and that is why she is the Lady of Winterfell and that is from where the Boltons are legitimising their claim to the north. But Arya is not the last of the Starks. She still has an older sister (that they know is alive when they decided on the marriage) and two brothers whose claim is superior to hers no matter how you argue. On top of that, the girl that is actually married to Ramsay is not even Arya. Arya is in Braavos training with the faceless men. Regardless, never once throughout the books, is she called the head of house stark or lady stark or the lady of Winterfell and have that be given as a reason as to why the North should fight for her. She is ‘Ned’s precious little girl’ and that is enough. Literally pulled Lady of Winterfell out of your ass.

“They’re not trying to claim the north was given to them by the crown or no longer belonging to the starks” is an insane statement to make when the royal decree is literally the only leg they have to stand on, and that they are now the unequivocal lords of Winterfell is literally exactly what they’re claiming. Bruh. Bobby B winning the crown by conquest is still valid but the Baratheons being distant cousins of the Targaryens helped. The Boltons need Stark blood to strengthen their claim not create a claim from a non-existent one, which is why they married “Arya” and which is also exactly why just any girl, and not Arya herself, worked. It is all for show.

Okay, scratch all of that. Let me make it simple. The Bolton’s claim to the north literally comes from being granted the north by royal decree. Marrying “Arya Stark” just gives the loyal northerners less reason to fight against Bolton rulership. So the Bolton derive their authority by literally being given the North by the crown after killing Robb Stark and hope to retain that claim in front of the northern lords by seemingly marrying “Arya Stark”. The former is legally and politically important. The latter is socially important. If the North wasn’t actually granted to the Boltons, Ramsay marrying Arya wouldn’t have done jack to their claim, sorry. Which leads me to the latter, having a political marriage between the Boltons and the Starks reduces the chances of a revolt by the “more loyal” northern lords. “Even Lady Dustin says him keeping his title depends on how he treats his wife”. Yes, so as to not anger the northern lords. If his claim was from the ladyship of his wife, then it wouldn’t have depended on how he treated her. Eg. Lady Hornwood. How are you proving my own point here.

Ramsay doesn’t derive his authority from his wife who is the Lady of Winterfell. He doesn’t even derive it from his wife. He married a “Stark” because it merely quells the rumbling of a revolt and makes the Boltons more palpatable as Wardens of the North. Moreover, if they were deriving the claim from Arya then Ramsay would be the Lord of Winterfell but he’s not, Roose is. If the Boltons really wanted to lay a claim to the north by marrying Arya, then they would have torn apart heaven and earth to find the real one and married the her, and that too to Roose, not Ramsay. But they can’t, because she inherently doesn’t hold that power. This also doesn’t mean that she is less of a Stark so don’t think I am trying to say that.

Do you think if hypothetically Lord Manderly married his son to Arya, would that automatically make him the liege lord of the north? Does marrying Lysa to Jon Arryn make Jon Arryn’s father the ruling lord of the Riverlands? Does it even make Jon the ruling lord of the riverlands? Even if Hoster and Edmure were dead, neither Jon Arryn nor his father would have no claim to the Riverlands. Where is this logic even coming from? It’s clearly not in universe. Your argument about Lady Hornwood holds no water because there was no royal decree that proclaimed him as the Lord of Hornwood. If there was, he wouldn’t need to marry Lady Hornwood herself, even any of her daughters to appease her subjects because her subjects are not noble houses with armies of their own. Hornwood is not the entirety of the North. The North is half the continent and therefore holds much more political sway. Hornwood is a small House. How are you even drawing parallels here? The Boltons won’t just hand wave away the royal fucking decree for no good reason especially when they stabbed and betrayed their own King for it. What made you even think of this???

Lastly, this is not GRRM trying to muddle the Stark succession. This is GRRM trying to show the reader that sometimes people with less social standing and power are abused simply because those higher than them can get away with it. He means to say that this is something that will not happen to someone from a bigger House. This was to highlight the inherently lopsided, power-imbalanced, oppressive system that is cruel to those it deems weak.

#that Arya is the Lady of Winterfell is literally a headcanon #where did it even fucking come from? #George please release twow people are starved for content #asoiaf #Jeyne Poole #the jeyne poole arya debate #also I thought the lady of Winterfell was for the future #when she comes back home? she already is the lady of Winterfell? wow #y’all work fast #when did that happen? after Ned died? or cat and Robb? #because then clearly it will go to Arya no because Sansa simply doesn’t exist in our minds #ostrich syndrome #I’m tired of this #Bolton succession I guess #edit: to anon I apologise I think I was overly rude maybe you meant well

[goodqueenaly]

Hiya❤️Quick question! How fast can a noble widow/widower remarry after their spouse dies? How long would the mourning period be according to the Faith?

There doesn’t appear to be a specific, legally mandated general timeframe for the remarriage of Westerosi widows or widowers, but there is certainly a sense that both widows and widowers should wait a respectable amount of time before remarrying. Ostensibly, this period should, so far as we can tell, allow the bereaved party to mourn his or her late spouse: Rodrik Cassel gently suggested to Donella Hornwood that “perhaps in time, when your grief is passed, you may find it prudent to wed again”, while Benjicot Blackwood publicly decried Unwin Peake’s attempt to betroth Aegon III to his daughter by “question[ing] the haste of it”, as “Aegon should have been allowed half a year at least to mourn his little queen”. Consequently, marriages arranged too hastily by widowed parties (or at least which are seen as too hasty) can incur scandalized commentary: Viserys I declared that the marriage of Rhaenyra and Daemon was “an insult to [the] memories” of Laenor and Laena Velaryon because “[n]either Daemon’s wife nor Rhaenyra’s husband had been dead even half a year”, while Cersei bitterly observed at Tommen’s wedding to Margaery that “[i]t is too soon. A year, two years, that would have been time enough” (although it should be noted that Cersei was - and is - completely convinced that any daughter-in-law of hers is prophesied to cause her downfall).

Naturally, given the inherently political nature of most aristocratic marriages in Westeros, social expectations on an appropriate period of time prior to remarriage cannot only focus on personal sentiment. Jaime forbid the widowed Jeyne Westerling from marrying for two years explicitly because “[i]f the girl took another husband too soon and had a child by him, inevitably there would come whispers that the Young Wolf was the father”. Likewise, Septon Eustace, commenting on Rhaenyra and Daemon’s marriage, asserted that “Rhaenyra knew her father would never approve of the match, so she wed in haste to make certain he could not prevent the marriage” - probably not an untrue guess, even if I tend to also agree with Mushroom that Rhaenyra had already conceived the future Aegon III and wanted to marry the father. So I would say generally, Westerosi widows and widowers are expected to stay single for at least six months, but probably more like a year or more - enough time to allow the bereaved party to mourn, but more to the point, enough time to allow those parties with a political interest in the remarriage to provide their input, if not outright arrange a suitable match.

#asoiaf meta #laws and customs #marriage in asoiaf

[the-key-five]

The Winter Wolves supporting Rhaenyra’s claim to the Iron Throne // Bran defending Donella Hornwood’s rights

And now that my lord husband and my sweet son have gone to the gods, the Bastard looks at my lands hungrily.

Bran wanted to give the lady a hundred men to defend her rights.

***

We have come to die for the dragon queen.

#branstarkmonth2022 #bran stark #asoiaf #asoiafedit #rhaenyra targaryen #gifs #branmonth2022 #ours #by lina

[thenorthsource]

NORTHERN LADIES:

Catelyn Stark / Donella Hornwood / Jyana Reed / Barbrey Dustin / Bethany Bolton / Lyessa Flint / Sybelle Glover / Maege Mormont

#catelyn stark #donella hornwood #jyana reed #barbery dustin #bethany bolton #lyessa flint #sybelle glover #maege mormont #asoiaf #asoiafedit #valyriansource #valyrianscrolls #asoiafwomensource #house stark #house hornwood #house reed #house dustin #house bolton #house flint #house glover #house mormont #thenorthedit #ours #*gifs

[atopvisenyashill]

wait i was actually thinking about “baby baelon lives au” and a laena-baelon marriage would definitely fix so many problems, but unfortunately Laena is born in 92, and baelon in 105. while 13 years is irrelevant if it’s baelon who is older, it’s VERY relevant for laena, and then you get into that older woman/younger man double standard, and do we even have more examples besides Viserys/Larra Rogare and Maegor/Ceryse Hightower, even moving outside the royal family matches? There’s a few that might be a lil wild bc we have no idea the ages of the people involved (Aelinor Penrose, Dyanna Dayne, Betha Blackwood, but also we don’t know if Elaena was a lot older than Ronnel or Michael; I personally like the idea of Ronnel & Elaena being the same age and Michael being noticeably younger but we really just don’t have that info) (kinda curious if Dyanna is older than Maekar too, bc he’s noted to have gotten married young, for love, so he’s probably like 14-17 when he marries, and there’s a pattern of Dornish marriages happening later in life, which feels like to me either Dyanna is just as young OR she’s noticeably and obviously 3-4 years older, and when I tell you I’m obsessed with the idea that 14 year old Maekar marries like. 17-18 year old Dyanna for love, and this odd match up is directly why Egg scours the seven kingdoms for a hot noble woman willing to always top, it is a problem for me alright).

Like literally it’s just Donella Hornwood and Ramsay Snow which. does not count lmao. Am i forgetting a bunch of people??

It is very interesting how both those marriages get consummated immediately at ages way too young for the boys, and then break down emotionally by the time the guy is like, 20. there’s a lot to unpack there about like, male abuse and proxy dynamics and shit though, and it’s fascinating how this maturity gap is at least implied as a factor whereas the gap between like 70% of the other marriages does Not involve breakdowns like this.

#getting on my soap box #i feel like there’s a benefit with baelon which is ‘they can consummate whenever bc laena will be plenty old enough’ #esp if they’re trying to keep daemon off the throne.

[alicenttully]

"It is wolves I mean to hunt. I can scarcely sleep at night for the howling." – Arya X ACOK

This quote really jumped out to me when I reread this chapter because it’s another example of how much George characterizes dire wolves and dogs as adversaries within his world.

It’s said by Roose Bolton (who goes on to betray Robb) who has his own associations with dogs through his bastard Ramsay.  

Ramsay’s “girls” are his brutal beasts, named after girls he hunted and murdered for his sick enjoyment.  Northern girls.  The Stark’s people.

Ramsay will go on to benefit from the betrayal of the “Young Wolf” (Robb).  While I seriously doubt that he knows very little about Jeyne’s true background beyond her growing up in Winterfell, the fact that he does not hesitate to abuse someone who happened to be Sansa’s best friend and someone that she dearly misses further demonstrates the clash between direwolves and dogs.    

Finally, @powderpowderblue made an astute point a while ago when they pointed out how Donella Hornwood’s harrowing situation demonstrates that neither Sansa nor Arya would have been safe in the long-term had it been them in Bolton custody and not Jeyne.     Ramsay is dangerous and unpredictable, and he is extremely insecure about being a half-common bastard and therefore I’m not really saying anything new here when I say he would have absolutely sought to punish two girls whose origins are the complete opposite of his.   This is furthered by the fact that his ability to derive enjoyment from hurting others (Theon) is his defining character trait. 

#asoiaf #a song of ice and fire #sansa stark #arya stark #robb stark #jeyne poole #house stark #game of thrones #got

[sowthetide]

is there such a thing as quenlyn universe thramsay? personally, I like thramsay not solely because of evil yaoi (lmao) but because of how ramsay is very much a theon accessory character that orbits him and is sort of designed to be his dark mirror and sort of links up to the trauma reenactment conga line theon as roose thing ---- sorry I'm incoherent and my initial question is also not what I fully mean, but how will that look with quen's being a lady with not much to inherit? love your fic so much mwah mwah

I must always play coy about my intentions with Ramsay so I don't spoil the upcoming chapters, but suffice it to say, things will nottttt go as well for him in this fic as they went in canon (so far, at least. Bro is so dead in TWOW).

I'm actually a bit of a closet Thramsay enjoyer. Not cause I think it's like, a healthy dynamic or anything lol (and I actually really dislike BDSM-style takes on their relationship), but Ramsay is an indelible part of Theon's life. "Dark mirror" is a good word for it, as both Ramsay and Theon (to me at least) show the cracks in the north's righteous facade. Theon is called a turncloak by the very same lords that fell in line behind the Boltons after the Red Wedding, and Ramsay's horrific treatment of him (not to mention that of Jeyne Poole) goes almost completely unchallenged. Not to say Theon's some innocent darling, but even Robb implicitly agrees to his torture, which is... interesting, to say the least.

There's just so much thematic juice to their dynamic, from the class tension to the "revenge" Ramsay enacts on Theon. Ramsay devises the scheme to murder the miller's wife and sons (to pass them off as Bran and Rickon), but he is, himself, the son of a miller's wife. He's baseborn and, yet he gets away with the rape and murder of a widowed highborn woman (Donella Hornwood), and his resentment of Theon's highborn status is why he made Reek, who is Ramsay's servant. In ASOS onward, he is the malignant tumor that the north refused to eliminate, he is the rot that has been left to fester, he is an indictment of the north itself (now I'm getting kinda dramatic but you get my point).

I promised absolutely NO Reekification of Quen in this fic, and I don't wanna give away what I've got planned, but if I had to spitball about what Quen-Ramsay might look like, well...

It's Not Good. You're right that Quen has nothing to inherit, though she had some use as a bride/link between houses. Unfortunately, the only way for Ramsay's ruse to work in this fic is if Quen is dead (or presumed dead). So either he kills her, or keeps her alive as his captive, but death would probably be preferable... 😬

Anyway, thank you for another lovely ask! I have Thoughts about Ramsay and his place in the narrative, and it's been fun just throwing stuff out there lol.

#ask #i've been in Homework Lockdown all day and unfortunately i'm prob going back after this #any biomed shawties wanna hit me up? i'm supposed to be reviewing this article and i do NAWT understand #“Inflammation-induced subcutaneous neovascularization for the long-term survival of encapsulated islets without immunosuppression” #i know what some of those words mean. but not most #anyway i hope yall are having A LOVELY NIGHT!!!!!!!

[warsofasoiaf]

In your opinion, what immediate changes would there be if Robett Glover was given command of the forces at the battle of the Greenfork, and Roose Bolton was subsequently killed while fighting in the vanguard? Obviously, this means no Red Wedding down the line, but how do you think this would affect the rest of the Stark/Tully war effort, in the months following?

Roose dying means Ramsay is in charge of House Bolton, but he's back in the North. Things could shake out as normal with Theon taking Winterfell if Robb decides to send him on his trip to Winterfell, but Ramsay being in charge of the house and murdering Donella Hornwood. The aftermath of the Manderly/Bolton clash would then leave House Bolton without a lord, since Ramsay disguises himself as "Reek" and claims that Ramsay is dead. That means the fief reverts back to House Stark, meaning Bran now has a whole issue of how to manage a house without a lord. He'd have to appoint a temporary castellan to manage the Dreadfort. That in turn means that Theon might not think "Reek's" suggestion would work, since there would be a competing authority empowered by Bran.

If the Harrenhal caper goes off as normal (and given how Robett Glover had a integral part in the plan, he's capable of having this happen), that means no secret correspondence and betrayal to lead to the Red Wedding, but also no unnecessary bleeding out of the Northern forces by Roose sending them to suicidal battles. That leaves the North/Riverlands kingdom pretty strong. If Edmure continues his attack on the Fords, Glover can blockade the road back to the capital, attempting to squeeze Tywin's army in the march back. In turn, that might make Mace waffle on joining Tywin, which leaves King's Landing without reinforcements, or if Tywin has only his own forces, with insufficient numbers to stop him. Stannis takes the capital, executes Joffrey, Tommen, Myrcella, Cersei, and Tyrion, and the Lannisters are toast.

Thanks for the question, Anon.

SomethingLikeALawyer, Hand of the King

#what if #war of the five kings

[agentrouka-blog]

Do u think Rhaegar and Lyanna had a secret wedding?

Not in the sense of the stories of Jace and Sara, or Jenny and Duncan.

The kind of precedent I see for any potential wedding between Lyanna and Rhaegar is more in the following:

Ramsay and Donella Hornwood

Ramsay and Jeyne Poole

Tyrion and Sansa

Maegor and his Black Brides

Bael and the Winter Rose (consent explicitly pending)

Ygritte and Jon (coercive, abusive)

the near-miss for Alys Karstark with Cregan Karstark

any reference to bride stealing

As in, it wasn't a freely made mutual pledge for love (the way the show suggested) but a ceremony under duress with select witnesses for the purpose of (a questionable) legal legitimacy for any resulting offspring.

I am undecided about it.

Pro:

the kingsguard insist on staying at the Tower even after all their known Targaryen royals are dead or in exile.

Rhaegar wants three heads of the dragon, not two heads and a bastard

Targaryen precedent for polygamy

Jon's "hidden king/prince" foreshadowing in the text

Con:

It would take a lot of force or threat to get a temperamental person like Lyanna to comply

it would be hard to convince anyone at all of the legality of such an act

Rhaegar could have just counted on legitimizing the bastard later on (for which there is also precedent)

Jon's could be offered legitimization by someone else. Again. It's a theme with him.

Basically, for me it's a toss-up if there was a wedding that has remained secret, but I feel a great need to emphasize that theirs is not a love story and if there was a wedding it wasn't for love and it wasn't voluntary. Not with the way Lyanna's character has been presented to us in the books.

#anti rhaegar x lyanna #anti rhaegar targaryen #secret wedding #forced marriage