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deathdxnces · 8 months

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💭 + riven (i know u hate the ruination stuff but i wanna hear about how u think irelia should have handled it)

SEND 💭 + A TOPIC/WORD/QUESTION AND I'LL WRITE A META ABOUT IT

— @couturiere (this is so old but. hi. also sorry i wrote a complete essay--)

uahsishdis listen i don't think all of the ruination stuff is necessarily terrible. i actually just particularly dislike what was done with irelia, and the stuff with riven is a major part of it. but i think the thing is it needed time an event like that was never going to be able to give it.

irelia's hatred towards noxians runs quite deep after everything she endured because of them, and it is pretty generalized. i said it a bunch of times before but she doesn't see in them enemies who are also people; her views are very harsh and dehumanizing. and that's towards any noxian; but riven isn't any noxian. she was actively part of the invasion.

a fact that, according to their interaction during the ruination, irelia is aware of. so you put her with a noxian who was military and part of this specific invasion, one of those who actually did cut down her people, and who changed her mind only when she saw what noxus was doing to all of them (noxians included) with the chembombs... well. don't expect irelia to be civil in the slightest. she couldn't care less riven feels guilty now. her single redeeming quality is that she doesn't serve the empire anymore, and even then, irelia would think it rings hollow if she's not actively opposing them.

i went back to steadfast heart because although irelia appears very briefly, i remembered i didn't hate what was there, and i do stand by it! i think her initial reaction as portrayed in the comic is very in character.

she is, from the start, very aggressive. ready to attack, really, her blades already pointed at riven. and even when senna tries to intervene and calm her down, irelia is still angry. as she should be! like i said, from her point of view, knowing riven had a role in the invasion, she shouldn't be able to just let go of that anger immediately.

and i think it makes sense a world-ending threat works to force irelia to not try to kill her immediately! it is what stops her in the comic, even though it's made obvious her hatred hasn't diminished in the slightest. she actually makes a point to ensure riven she hasn't forgotten and ionia will not forget — the truce is temporary, because saving the world matters most and she can't do it alone, and the sentinels won't help if she kills riven.

so in that regard, i think the comic does a good job. but because i really want to take this opportunity and run with it to talk about everything ruination related and what i like and dislike about it, i went back to watch the visual novel stuff. it starts well! irelia does outright attack which is even better than threatening to.

and although she stops when it's said they're sentinels, her first reaction is still to question riven's presence (and the sentinels' legitimacy, as a result). she questions why they'd be working with a known war criminal, and when it's obvious her issue is with riven, senna questions what's the matter with riven (which. valid i suppose, i don't think she's bothered to catch up with the noxus-ionia situation uashuhsa). and it's actually!! really good that irelia also makes a point to say some may have forgiven riven, but she didn't.

riven says irelia is right, she did many things she regrets, etc etc, irelia isn't moved. and then after that i don't like how it goes aisudhfiu but i won't get in details not riven related, since that was the question. when she does agree to work with the sentinels, she still refuses to address riven directly and tells senna to 'keep that one' away from her because she doesn't trust her. she also makes a point of riven having to stay outside when they meet karma, because it is a sacred place she won't let riven defile with her presence c:

lots of things that aren't relevant to this discussion happen, and they interact after irelia joins the sentinels. during the fight with karma, she hits irelia pretty bad and riven is the one to step up and save her, a fact riven is eager to point out. irelia is not impressed. she actually doesn't hesitate to be pretty brutal in her reply.

riven doesn't reply, irelia says even though they're both sentinels they're not allies. riven says she was 'trying to be polite' and storms off. in other chapters they sometimes have little interactions (irelia continues to be as unfriendly as she can and riven answers with sarcasm). interesting to note that in the p&z part irelia says she's seen what the chemicals can do, and points out so does riven c:

i do like when she's being mean. i still think it's what makes the most sense. i also think it makes a lot of sense that when she does that, she clearly hits a sore spot (and it is! this is such an important part of riven's story!) so riven immediately argues, for once seriously instead of being sarcastic. it doesn't go further than that because senna steps in.

when they go to ixtal, senna sends them to scout a part of the forest together, which irelia immediately protests, and riven agrees. senna's commentary is really tone-deaf imo, because she says they need to stop fighting like school children when this. is literally two people from two opposite sides of a war that shaped so much of what they both are now, and who have plenty of reason to be antagonistic.

i especially take issue with it looking at the situation from irelia's side. not getting along with a war criminal who led armies that decimated your land and killed your people is at least to be expected. she's not being petty or childish, and i think this is where i start to have an issue with the story — because it's not just senna's point of view, it's how the story itself starts to treat the entire situation, and it's absurd to me to reduce it like that (and it's because they don't take the situation seriously enough that riven and irelia ultimately end up on good terms, but i'll get there).

it doesn't really change things immediately. in bilgewater's part irelia makes a little speech to convince mf to work with them, and riven comments it was really good and even she felt inspired and irelia just answers do not speak to me sdkfjn so yeah. nothing seems to have changed. let's keep that in mind for now. but also, again, the story tries to make the not getting along seem childish, to the point when irelia says don't talk to me, riven's reply is fine (... didn't want to talk to you anyway) which. tell me this isn't purposefully making it seem petty and childish. and it's not! it shouldn't be! that's not how you deal with the relationship between a person who lost all her loved ones and saw her land and her people slaughtered by another nation trying to conquer them and a second person who was! part! of! the! invading! army! a leader, even. there's nothing trivial about that.

anyway. in the next chapter they're on speaking terms ausdahfsifh it's a jarring development considering how they had interacted so far. because from the start it's obvious riven has no issue with irelia, and that even when her answer is to be sarcastic, that's a bit of self-defense. irelia, on the other hand, continues to have every reason to not be nice to riven, and nothing happens to change that. but suddenly, right at the beginning of the chapter, riven approaches her again (which, also.... not a good look, imo, knowing irelia has every reason to resent her and how she keeps going after her and trying to interact even though irelia made it clear she's not comfortable with that. and it could easily be solved with them having to interact more due to circumstance, but that's not how it's written, it's riven repeatedly trying to get irelia to talk to her).

anyway. back to what i was saying. riven approaches irelia again, and this time irelia doesn't outright shun her. she answers, and they just make small talk about the previous mission. irelia actually keeps the conversation going when riven hesitates. it doesn't make sense. but it doesn't last long either, cut short by awkward silence and irelia saying she's going to sharpen her blades, except riven uses that to continue talking and asks how did irelia break hers. irelia only replies noxians (screams in i didn't remember that but i said that's how she'd talk about it to most people most of the time just the other day), riven apologizes, irelia returns the question, riven says also noxians? (...guess that's kinda true). which. okay. i guess.

and then. there's the last chapter. and they're only really relevant again post final battle. where this exchange happens

by the actual end, when irelia says she has to go back to ionia, riven is already saying she hopes she'll see her again very soon.

which is followed by irelia thinking she's being sarcastic, riven saying it's sincere, and although irelia says nothing in return they did change the sprite to the happy one so.

this is already long af and i've just been reviewing how things are portrayed. you asked how i think irelia should've handled it. i think, for the most part, in both versions her initial reaction is accurate. she's angry, distrustful, reluctant to cooperate. she still accepts, because it's the world at stake.

but she wouldn't at any point be nice, there'd be no effort made to get along with riven, i don't think she'd care that senna or whoever calls it petty and childish. irelia is very certain she is in the right. she has no reason to make any effort. why would she? she wouldn't think riven earned it in any way.

i do think the 'you saved my life' trope could work to get them beyond that, otherwise irelia would just be endlessly antagonistic. but it'd have to be played differently. it'd have to be a meaningful gesture to get irelia to somewhat start to be anything other than aggressive or cold. and after that, i still don't think she'd be receptive to riven generally speaking, even less so if riven insisted on trying to talk to her when she's already established she doesn't want riven anywhere near her. and it'd be even worse with how riven comes across as trying really hard to say she's not the monster irelia accuses her of being. she had a change of heart? what difference does it make to the thousands she was involved in killing? what difference does it make when she only changed her mind when it was noxians being hit by the chembombs too?

i think it'd be far more accurate to her as a character to not have that change easily, and certainly not before riven did something that would, in irelia's eyes, have earned her some respect. even then, it'd take a lot of time and development to get irelia anywhere near the way they are by the end of the event. which, honestly, only makes it seem like she didn't bother with remembering all that much in the end lmao reluctant allies is fine. slowly (very slowly) getting irelia to let down her defenses and tolerate her? yeah i can see it, in a story written better than that. but actual friendship? to casually joke around, to be happy riven wants to see her again soon? that wouldn't be reached easily. it's possible (i do like the idea, actually, i'm not at all opposed to it) but it'd take a lot of time. it'd be a slow process. it'd take effort on riven's part, too, well beyond trying to talk to her and being upset when she's not receptive.

looking at it the way the story is developed, i just think irelia has no real reason to change her mind about riven. nothing happens that justifies that (even the life saving situation is right at the beginning and irelia is just like yeah whatever at best). so, to me, it'd make more sense for them to stay reluctant allies throughout all the ruination (it doesn't last that long, iirc? even though they go to a bunch of regions but anyway). irelia becoming more tolerant of her presence, maybe. the way she'd handle it, to me, really is to just accept there are greater threats to fight now and they're both some of the few people in the world capable of doing it. i can totally see irelia by the end of it no longer immediately going for murder as she did at the start (and that's progress! she's not at all tolerant towards other noxians like that, much less the ones that actively took part in the invasion). but i think that's the best irelia would be able to offer.

because, ultimately, there's some really heavy stuff between them. the event establishes irelia knows very well who riven is and what she was up to, that she was a commander, that she was around when noxus started using the chembombs, that irelia witnessed their impact firsthand. how do you get over all that? and especially for a character like irelia, to whom the war was extremely defining when it comes to who she is, what she fights for, how she views the world and of course how she views noxus, i don't see her being capable of really forgiving riven for all that. irelia isn't someone who lets things go easily. and she still has so much hate and anger and resentment and hurt especially where noxus is concerned. i wouldn't say it's outright impossible for her to have a positive relationship with riven eventually but when i say i think it'd take time i mean a long time, as well as a reason to believe riven has truly changed. and leaving noxus isn't enough for that.

so when it comes to the ruination specifically and how i think irelia should've acted, i think it starts very well and true to her character. my real issue is with how it goes as the story progresses, and that there is a change that isn't justified. i think it'd make more sense for her to remain closer to how she was at first, albeit less aggressive and antagonistic, but definitely not friendly either. that, or the story would have to be significantly different to justify her behavior changing.

#if anyone reads all this you're the real one #ksjdnfjkasnf #i assume you love me lots #because it's way too long and incoherent #i don't expect even mythe to read all of this lmao #i wrote sm #but. well #i guess that's my detailed take on what is good and what isn't when it comes to irelia and riven in the ruination #» out of character — ⌜main sup irl.⌟#» character study — ⌜both the tranquil sea and the tempest.⌟

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