#but i'm also gay and can't empathize with wanting to date a male character | Explore Tumblr Posts and Blogs

idolomantises · 1 year

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talking abt that one thing in velma thats on my mind a lot for the past few days (that turned into a big incoherent rambling about gay rep in media)

i'm seeing jokes about how the queer representation in mystery inc being so much better than the queer representation in velma and honestly it makes me want to go on a whole tangent about my thoughts on queer representation nowadays vs the more subtle examples decades prior.

There's this weird debate that goes on online about what is "good" queer representation, and one of the most notable and honestly annoying examples is that queer representation has to be so subtle that you could easily miss it/ignore it. i've always hated that take because its a claim mostly said by straight people who are uncomfortable with seeing characters who are openly queer and/or state their identity, but they present it as some sort of push for subtle and nuanced writing. personally i do prefer it when a character just, identifies as how they are without explaining their identity, but that doesn't mean flat out explaining your orientation is inherently bad representation. its why i will always defend the very clunky and awkward high guardian spice scene. it is absolutely poorly directed and written, but that doesn't make it "bad representation". however, I do consider the character who explains that he's trans bad representation because he is flat, uninteresting and very clearly a creator self insert. he doesn't feel like a well rounded character who's also a trans man, but just an incredibly sanitized example of trans representation.

i have many, many issues with helluva boss/hazbin hotel and i do genuinely find some depictions of queer characters just flat out offensive (you can argue with me about how angel dust being written like your average 90s gay stereotype is woke actually because he has trauma, i dont care), but i do admire and appreciate that the series doesn't want to sanitize its queer characters, even if its done poorly. though i could go into a whole rant about how i find it very telling that female characters that are queer are far less sexualized or allowed to be problematic compared to their queer male counterparts.

anyways back to velma. that show does something that i've always found pretty irritating in queer representation which is just this weird lack of faith in its audience. characters can't have a slow burn anymore. internalized thoughts, anger, frustration, longing. you have to immediately know that two characters are gay for each other, even if they're lifelong enemies. its like when modern horror movies open with the gore because they're scared people are going to be bored or leave early. there's no subtlety or chemistry between daphne and velma, they're just lovers because idk, its two girls who hate each other and who doesn't love that.

then i think about how mystery inc handled velma and her sexuality, how she was allowed to be well rounded and nuanced before you slowly realize that "oh, she doesn't like boys". i know her whole thing with shaggy is controversial among fans but i always loved how she does do something pretty unlikable but not immoral. yeah, it is shitty to force shaggy to choose between her and his dog, but i can understand her line of thinking and empathize with her. and i do like how they become friends in the end despite their awkward break up. It's always fun rewatching it and realizing that their incredibly awkward and cringe relationship was meant to be awkward and cringe. it was supposed to be weird and difficult to watch, because those two weren't meant to date each other. you could see how hard velma was trying to make the relationship work despite the fact that you never get the vibe that either character was full invested in it, unlike daphne and fred's relationship.

then you had velma and her relationship with marcie, which started off as sort of a catty rivalry (not full on attempted murder, i mean holy shit hbo velma) that slowly grows to where you're completely convinced that these two did gradually like each other. and i do really enjoy stuff like that, more subtle writing like that. which doesn't just apply to queer rep btw, my favorite ships are relationships that feel understated, something you have to really dig for and pay attention to. its why i consider bubbline the best f/f representation in cartoon. because its subtle, but not too subtle where it feels out of no where when they kiss, and nuanced in ways that enhances the relationship AND characters.

there's a good amount of relationships i see in cartoons where the creator, who is usually queer themselves, often wants to depict queer relationships, but is weirdly adverse to depicting the uglier aspects of that character, and refuses to add subtlety to it. steven universe is a show i've always felt conflicted on its handling of queer representation because on the one hand i appreciate writing lesbians that are messy, traumatized and make constant mistakes. but on the other hand, the show goes out of its way to ignore these issues and/or make excuses for it, making the decision to make these characters messy and complicated genuinely baffling (this is also one of the big issues i have with catradora and stolitz).

it makes me think back to my own work too. i really enjoy making fluffy, easily digestible gay content for my followers and myself because it puts me in a good headspace. But even now and then i like exploring those little nuances too, because i don't really enjoy stories with little conflict. Because of that acknowledgement of how satisfying it is to write fluffy, queer rep, you end up putting yourself in other creator's shoes. you're so used to media that either dehumanizes gay people or tells people that they don't exist that you push yourself to make the most in your face queer rep you can but its at the cost of an interesting and subtle characters. characters that don't really have arcs or places to learn and grow.

With bugtopia i made a joke about how i want some of my queer rep to feel like you're being queerbaited. It's not literal, obviously, but mixed in with characters who are already married and in same gender relationships, i really want to write dynamics that feel subtle enough for a bit of a slow burn. even if you know they're going to end up together, to at least value the characters on their own before centering them on their relationships. queerbaiting is something that deserves all the criticism it can get, but it is embarrassing when queerbaiting feels genuinely more interesting than actual queer rep because queerbaiting has that factor of "maybe they won't get together" that adds that bit of intrigue, vs so many shows that repeatedly hammer in your head "don't worry guys, they're gonna be lesbian lovers".

mystery inc (and many other shows) being forced to keep a relationship obvious while subtle to get through censorship really forced creators to be creative with their storytelling and not center characters around their relationship and identity. but nowadays i think shows like to take the easy way out. for me, i always thought the most impactful example of queer representation in steven universe is "Rose's Scabbard". I genuinely don't enjoy that episode because it's a good example of the show thinking that trauma is an excuse for shitty behavior, but i cant deny that an entire episode of pearl breaking down and finally accepting that she wasn't the center of rose's world. it's the crew being forced to be creative and push through censors to telling a compelling story about a traumatized lesbian slowly realizing that she basically deluded herself into thinking she was someone's savior.

I think it's silly to try to place good queer representation in one box. like subtle queer rep is good, but also queer rep where a character flat out states that their gay. where I think it falls apart is when it either reinforces stereotypes without properly deconstructing or expanding on them, makes the characters so overly kind and non-controversial that the relationship is just boring, or try to make your messy and complicated characters but the narrative refuses to hold them accountable or at least acknowledge that they're doing something wrong. and to clarify on that last part, i'm not asking for some hays code nonsense where every bad person goes to prison and/or promises to stop being a bad person again. i mean the narrative doesnt just fucking sugarcoat their behavior. i don't want to see helluva boss ignore the fact that stolas made blitzo call him out for only using him for sex and then pathetically rush to justify their relationship by giving them a bizarrely sanitized and sweet backstory. and i don't want to see catra literally end the fucking universe and only do something good because she's straight up out of options and the show just decides that that was her redemption and she doesn't need to do anything to atone for what she did (including repeatedly abusing and verbally berating adora).

anyways velma has none of those interesting qualities and i'm pretty sure daphne and velma kissed because the creator is a weird pervert who thinks two girls kissing is hot.

#txt #i was thinking abt knocking off some of my longer posts on my tumblr but ya know its tumblr. its made for a blog #twitter isnt really a good place to write think pieces because its not really made for thinkpieces #i really enjoy expressing my thoughts on discourse and media but i don't want to over do it because ya know. you guys followed me for my ar #not my 2434334th post about why i think helluva boss is a bad show #but i've been thinking about sometimes prioritizing what i want to do vs what people want to see from me. so now you're getting #a long ass rant about why i think velma showing two teenagers kissing by episode 2 #encapsulates the overall issue with modern queer rep

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novoaa1writes · 3 years

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Re aroace Yelena (I'm aro, myself): I think what really gets me is I reckon a lot of the people going 'it's just fanfiction! I can write what I want!' would also (and in my opinion, rightfully) be angry if a canonically in comics gay character was routinely written as straight in fanfiction (even if this wasn't confirmed in the MCU version). It feels like there's a double standard, where people don't see ace and aro rep as 'real' or something.

And while I can't stop anyone from writing anything (and I'm not really trying to?) I don't think people should be aware of this, think through how they'd feel if it was a gay character, and really examine why they want to write one of our few aroace characters as not aroace.

(also, about whether she is aro: the source quote literally says 'she's asexual, not romantic' so she's gotta be aroace, or maybe Non-SAM ace. There isn't really an argument for her being alloace)

ye ye! this is definitely a super fair response... i think that so many people's arguments are based in a perceived separation between comics!yelena and mcu!yelena, along with an added emphasis on the more recent awareness that asexual/aromantic people may not feel sexual arousal, but some are still perfectly content to engage in sexual activity with a partner of their choice. (i don't personally subscribe to either of these viewpoints; they just constitute a recurring viewpoint i've been seeing all throughout the discourse surrounding this topic.)

additionally, i do very much see how this is a bit of an unprecedented circumstance here—particularly since it's concerning a character who is asexual (and arguably aromantic as well), which has been exceedingly rare (if not borderline obsolete) in most all popular forms of media

to draw a tentative parallel to a perhaps more well-known phenomenon:

the advent of the bisexual woman onto the scene of mainstream media as a character archetype

in many of the earlier depictions of the bisexual woman, they were most always rendered as being rather feminine, and preferring to date men over women.

to be very clear: i am not saying that is at all unreasonable!!! these people (—that is, bisexual women who come across as very feminine and typically prefer to date men rather than women—) exist, and are valid!

but in the very beginning, when depicting unambiguous female bisexuality in mainstream media was still a groundbreaking concept, the people writing them were NOT lgbtq+. consequently, they were NOT writing these characters in such a way so that they could illustrate that being a bisexual woman is valid in whatever form that takes for each individual person (—e.g. that it is valid to be a feminine bisexual woman who prefers men over women). rather, they were writing it that way because it was the only type of gay representation they could bear to distribute on such a mass scale, and additionally, because it would sufficiently appeal to the male gaze (thereby keeping viewers engaged, and simultaneously earning the titles of "diverse" and "accepting" for implementing gay representation when such a thing was still largely unheard of).

in other words: they used the farcical excuse of "bisexual representation" in order to film softcore girl-on-girl p*rn that appealed primarily to straight men, and actively alienated the wlw (and, by extension, the greater lgbtq+) community by doing so.

thus, the earlier depictions of bisexuals (male AND female) were incredibly problematic, homophobic, and ultimately more damaging than helpful

it's not quite the same, as there are somewhat differing reasons for the erasure in either case, but i'd argue that they're nonetheless similar to a certain degree

so i definitely can empathize in some capacity (—that is, as best as someone who is neither ace nor aro can possibly hope to—), and am currently leaning more towards the opinion that this facet of yelena's character, rare and often overlooked as it is, should be consistently portrayed as accurately and respectfully as possible.

thus, i plan to do everything i can to fulfill this from here on out, and i'm currently debating what to do with the yelena works i've already published—whether to radically revise them, or just delete them entirely.

thank you for your input, anon <3 i value it greatly

and if anyone else has anything to remark on any of this, feel free to share!

#all very good points tbh and i think there's definitely been a huge double standard emerging with some people in regards to this #i also can understand how this issue would have a lot of mixed viewpoints and sentiments #i just really wanna get a feel for what people who are aro/ace and also fans of yelena are feeling bc i think that that's super important #sorry for the rant lmao #ace yelena belova discourse #asexual yelena belova discourse #ace yelena belova #asexual yelena belova #ask #answered #anon #i talk too much

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