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#because A LOT of the time (especially when the critique-er is a woman)

wherestoriescomefrom · 3 years

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since like one (1) of u asked.

the thing is that typically - historically - romance is written by women. i mean it, even when you go all the way back to the nineteenth century, the modern form of the romance novel was very much being codified by women. 20th century america is considered the peak of the romance novel, and it was practically all women. the historical romance genre is dominated by women. even the early 2000s trend of really weird erotica was mostly women.

this doesn't happen in india. famous romance novelists in india have been men for some reason - you have your chetan bhagat, ravinder singh, durjoy datta - the whole lot, yk? like you might have the occasional preeti shinoy or whatever, but on the whole the really cheap paperbacks are always going to be male writers. and if you ever sit around and wonder "ok but why is romance writing in india mostly men???? that's really weird it doesn't usually happen like that" the answer is the same for practically all of the issues you run into with writing in india. caste.

in this case, the answer is also really fucking bizarre. the reason why romance writing in india is dominated by upper caste men is because typically, women who have access and leisure to english writing publishing are upper caste, and they cannot be allowed to write romance. romance has too many connotations of titillation, cheapness and being available for the lowest common denominator, and you cannot allow the purity of upper caste women to be associated with that sort of thing.

that's really the bottom line of it. at least, that's what my diagnosis of the problem is. there's this really great essay by rachel dwyer on the indian on screen kiss - i think it's in a book edited by francesca orsini - and she comes to a similar sort of conclusion about why kisses cannot be permitted on screen in india. that upper caste actresses wouldn't want lower caste male audiences to see them like that. similarly, no one wants upper caste indian women to write romance that can be read by practically anyone - thats why when you have women in the indian publishing world writing romance, the marketing is really different! compare an anuja chauhan book to a chetan bhagat - she's an upper caste woman, the cover art for her book has those markets. it's typically priced higher, too - an anuja chauhan is going to cost you rs 350 to chetan bhagat's rs 150. there's more female writers in the market now, but i'm usually sus.

its really hard to make lists of good romance writing in india because of all these factors. i have no problems with durjoy datta and all (i think my sister loves his books) but i genuinely find it hard to get into romance written by men. HOWEVER, all of that being said, here's some of the books i've really liked:

1. Keep the Change by Nirupama Subramaniam: ok so like i read this when i was fourteen, so take this recommendation with a pinch of salt. it is painfully upper caste and tam-brahm, but i also remember it being a genuinely really funny book. also, this is a sort of one of the first examples of what is going to become a popular romance form in india - the corporate romance: cosmopolitan, sexy, urban. it's funny and all that, but it's also like a telling example of what's about to come. it's strangely like sex and city, and it is an interesting book in its own right just because of that.

2. Stupid Cupid by Mamang Dai: this is less like a tradition romance book but i,,,, love mamang dai. she's a writer from arunachal pradesh, and some of her other books are just..... *chefs kiss*. this one is lovely because it has two of the things i love: delhi and romance. a woman runs a boarding house where people come and fall in love, and it's just about delhi and it's emotions.

3. Those Pricey Thakur Girls/The House that BJ Built by Anuja Chauhan: i know i spent some time critiquing the politics behind chauhan's writing, but these two books are genuinely so funny, so well written and so cute!! especially the second one, i love that book in particular. chauhan also seems more clued in to the caste politics that back her up, but she's still on thin ice because she loves her rajput heritage. the first book is set during the emergency and has a pride and prejudice vibe, of four unmarried daughters. the second one is modern day and its more unbelievably but way romancey-er for me.

4. Gulab by Annie Zaidi: i was wondering whether i should put this book in or not, because it is less of a romance and more of a ghost story. it is a mental mind fuck, for what its worth, and really lovingly written about a man's first love. genuinely a bit creepy in parts tho, as ghost stories often are.

5. Umera Ahmed's writing: she's pretty central to the Pakistani tv drama, and a lot of her books were adapted for pakistani television. the most famous example of this is probably Zindagi Gulzar Hai, but my favourite would probably be Daam. ahmed's writing was read in translation by me, as my written urdu is really bad. these cannot exactly be classified as romance, but she does deal with love and what it means for women. one thing to be careful of when reading her writing: she is anti ahmaddiya. i won't pretend to know much about pakistani social politics, but i know that that community is very severely discriminated against.

6. Prem Kabootar by Manav Kaul: this book is in hindi, and it's a short story collection. there's an english translation callesd A Night in the Hills, but i cannot vouch for the veracity of the translation. i did love the hindi tho, the titular story is really cute! it is a lot about love and romance in different forms and times while growing up. i even had a chance to watch the play version of that story back in the before times.

Books That Aren't Good, Per Say, But Interesting To Read Category:

7. Once Upon a Curfew by Srishti Chaudhry: ok so like this book is another one set in the emergency but its really bad. its slow paced and the character growth doesnt happen naturally. the romantic hero is quite nice but the lead just doesn't make herself likeable. it's also got some veiled allusions to upper caste delhi university college cultures, and like in a celebratory way?? but on the whole its interesting to read because the emergency only just became an acceptable thing to write about, and it is interesting to see how writers are dealing with it, if you know what i mean??

8. Unmarriageable by Soniah Kamal: ok so this wasn't good, like i feel like it fundamentally misread a lot of what pride and prejudice was about BUT it was interesting because there seems to be a rise of pakistani authors who look at austen. even Austenistaan by Laleen Sukhera is an example of that. i didn't have fun reading this but it's definitely interesting to read. it's nowhere close to my favourite south asian adaptation of austen, but that's a story for another time.

and that's really all i have because thats just how romance genre is in india. i will say this, though: you will find more interesting romantic story telling in hindi writing - even if it is by men. i have a copy of October Junction by Divya Prakash Dubey i was going to get at during the midterm break, and i will report on that in detail whenever i do finish it. in the meanwhile, this is genuinely all i have. on the whole, i really think you can also find far, FAR more interesting ideas of romance in cinema from india. and i don't mean bollywood (although some movies are pretty good!), i mean regional indian cinema!! some marathi movies have such lovely romances, and there's a few malyali ones that are really nice too!! once again though, thats a conversation for another time.

#romance writing #south asian writing #south asian romance #book recommendations #hello void this is ridiculosity #indian politics #indian writing #booklr

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ato-matsuri · 3 years

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On Agartha

Been a while since I’ve written a long text post, most of all one about Fate. It honestly inspires a lot of rambling in me, after all. But I don’t think, this time, it’s due to its good writing, the emotions it makes me feel, or anything good. This, my friend, is about Agartha. I should probably prelude that this contains a metric shit ton of Agartha spoilers. If you haven’t seen Agartha, and you’re actually wanting to see the story -- scroll past. But, having played through Agartha completely and rested on the story for a bit, I think I want to repeat what everyone else has for ages lol.

Agartha, on paper, is incredible. A subterranean world built off fantastical story off fantastical story, made by a woman known for her ability to weave story after story, within stories, on the fly, and from a database of every possible Arabian Nights tale. Where the fear Scheherazade has due to Shahryar's endless abuse and fearmongering has stretched even to men as a whole due to literal years of having to survive Shahryar. Where the only leaders were queens, where the only rebellion force was a man so horrifically corrupt that he'd easily fall for the tricks she played. Her intent -- to reveal magecraft forever, removing any power magecraft has, saving her from ever having to fight and face kings -- and die -- ever again. That... sounds pretty good when I describe it that way, huh? Now if only it were executed with any modicum of sense.

From the beginning, Agartha's writing struck me as remarkably odd. It was like I was watching someone desperately try to emulate Nasu's writing style -- but had absolutely no idea what made Nasu's writing so good. Its exposition dumps, rather than being interesting, ended up being thoroughly boring -- as they focused on the mundane, like the fact that moss glows to light up the landscape -- instead of the magical implications of a world like Agartha even existing to begin with. Albeit, with the mystery of Agartha at that time, we can safely assume that there wasn't much to focus on, but then why spend so damned long talking about this stuff?

The worldbuilding, while passable, feels fairly flawed in execution. The idea of a world made the way Agartha was could've made for some interesting commentary about the way men treated (and still do treat) women in modern society, but Agartha not only misses the point, but tumbles head-over-ass into the uncanny valley and makes the whole thing sound like a continent-wide BDSM session. There's barely any actual subtle or well-done symbolism to showcase misogyny in this way -- and while hyperbole can serve a good point at times, the hyperbole combined with the strangely sexual writing of these segments makes it feel less like commentary and more like a badly-done doujin.

For example -- El Dorado was as simple as it gets. Men are slaves/breeding machines/whatever. The whole 'breeding machine' thing is played off extensively, even with Penth -- a minor at this stage, mind you -- comments on using the protagonists as such breeding machines. I'll come back to this later, because this serves as another point.

Ys was a fucking cool concept -- a world ruled entirely by rampant consumerism and chaos. Men, in this world, are still second-class citizens, pretty much the playthings of the women around them. I say that Ys is the best kingdom comparatively, as it was at least more bearable than its other kingdoms, but it still felt weirdly sexual in its writing tone. Of course, following tone, Dahut (who I'll get back to later) smashes men constantly, and is very keen on fucking Guda as well, following a trend. It's played for comedy, mostly, but it's still uncomfortable as all hell. Even so, I note it's more bearable because it's a very slightly more subtle take on the whole 'misogyny' allegory -- these people are using men for basically whatever they want, and tossing them away after. I'd compare it to a few true crime cases of people who murdered, or assaulted women for no good reason at all, purely out of a want that was either denied (for good reason), or that the want itself was to inflict harm. While the allegory still does feel unintentional here, it's at least slightly less unintentional. It was probably mostly just by accident due to Agartha's generally uncomfortable writing style, but the allegory here feels a little more potent when it's not so blatantly a BDSM fic.

I hate the Nightless City, despite it again being a cool concept. A 'utopia' where speaking out at all means death -- where men are in concept free citizens, but in practice fall victim to the law if they look at someone funny. Again, in concept, great allegory. The law does not treat men and women the same -- and while it differs depending on the case which is preferred, the vast majority of the time, women are pretty much shafted by the legal system (see Brock Turner), especially in very conservative areas. Cases can be made for both genders being shafted, of course -- but for the purpose of this allegory, picking out the prejudices of the legal system against gender is a fair critique. But, like everything else Agartha does, these neat ideas fall flat in practice.

They barely touch at all on the allegory, and nobody seems to even realize it in the cast, making me further believe the allegories aren't intentional at all. In due fact, it's as if the writer didn't even realize that this could be read as an allegory. The men's plights make some sense, as they were yoinked out of nowhere into a world that hates them. But the Servants and Guda don't think about it at all past the 'wow men are slaves that sucks' -- barely even considering that this could be an allegory the world's creator made due to their own horrific circumstances. They do point this out, but to my knowledge, it's very late -- when Scheherazade's called on her bluff, only then is it ever mentioned, and only in passing at that. If anything, the fact they point this out so close to the ending makes the ending itself that much more insulting. But before I get to the ending, I think there's something else about Agartha that sets the scene for just how awful it is -- and that's the way the characters are written, and the dialogue that comes of it. For this, I'll split it up into the characters who portray this the most. I'll even describe their personalities in Agartha's context.

Guda: Crouching pervert, hidden Mash stan. A few non-sequiturs of Guda complimenting Mash despite the mood being completely broken by it. Guda's incapable of taking a situation seriously in Agartha, even when the world's basically due to be changed forever. They keep cracking jokes, creeping on Astolfo/d'Eon, and other such things even when people are literally dying all around him. For that matter, I clearly recall the scene where -- for no real reason -- Guda just changes gears with Mash in tow, and starts trying to decipher d'Eon's gender. There's absolutely no real context to this, nor any reason for Guda to do this. Further noted is the fact Guda has worked with d'Eon before, and should've probably realized d'Eon's situation by this point. The Nasuverse has always been a bit, er, behind on gender norms and such, but it's so prevalent in any scene with d'Eon it hurts -- especially in that particular scene.

Astolfo: Oddly enough, the most tolerable person here (sans one other person). Agartha's refusal to take itself seriously works remarkably well for Astolfo. And while Astolfo isn't exactly written well here either, the fact that Astolfo's always been a bit loopy makes them seem, well, more in character. They're responsible for some of the funnier moments in Agartha, with their input composing approximately 3/4 of the, like, seven or eight funny moments in Agartha proper. Even so, Astolfo's appearance sometimes hurts Agartha as much as they help it, probably since Astolfo is a bit of the reason Agartha won't take itself seriously.

d'Eon: Deserved fucking better. The previously mentioned scene was the worst offender by far in my eyes, with it coming out of fucking nowhere. d'Eon's paired with Astolfo as a buddy and fighting partner, which itself could've made for good material -- instead, d'Eon is constantly dragged into Astolfo's fanservice-y gimmicks, and d'Eon themselves are pretty often creeped on by Guda. I'd go out on a limb to say that d'Eon's implied dislike of gendered clothing (see the maid outfit) made their scenes wearing such outfits far more uncomfortable, especially with how distinctly sexual the Agartha humour is. I just hated it.

Columbus: I can't fucking believe I'm saying this, but Columbus was the funniest character in Agartha. And I don't even think that was intentional. Something about how unabashedly horrible he was caught me completely off guard -- I thought he'd end up sort of like Napoleon at a glance, someone whose Spirit Origin was completely changed due to Europe's collective worship of the dude -- but holy FUCK was I wrong. Something about the hilariously cursed faces Columbus pulls, combined with his loud-and-proud irredeemable evilness, made him a blast to watch -- and an even bigger blast to beat the shit out of. His, uh, toothy grin still cracks me up even a few weeks after playing it.

Penthesilea: One of a very large amount of people who really deserved better. She barely ever shows up -- and when she does, she voices her desire to turn Guda and co. into a breeding machine/slave (recall she's like. 16?), and pretty much throws the whole 'reasonable-ish zerk' thing out the window instantly, because Agartha decided to forego decent writing in favour of 'funny berserker hates achilles haha brrrrrr,' therefore losing pretty much all the characterization they could've given her. The lack of 'alternate views' that show her in greater detail make this far worse, which I'll go into later.

Dahut: God, wasted potential out the asshole! A woman who made an entire world that fucked around and needlessly consumed stuff, she's the epitome of such a belief. But that's all she is. I'd be able to forgive this awful writing if Scheherazade, who 'implanted' Drake onto Dahut, was a bad writer -- but she's fucking Scheherazade! Dahut's a completely flat character, who constantly tries to bed (and kill) Guda, and generally likes the idea of needless consumption. That's literally it. Again, could be explained if Dahut had difficulty keeping control of Drake's body and conscience -- but this isn't explored either! She's just a walking, talking missed opportunity.

Wu: God, look at her design. Do I even need to say more?! She falls under the same problem that the other rulers do -- shallow characterization, no opportunities to flesh them out, etc.

Scheherazade: She could've been so fucking amazing. Scheherazade's story is one ripe with interpretations the Fate series so loves to utilize -- and on paper, her character is amazing. It'd only be natural for someone like Schez to be this deeply traumatized after so many days on death's door -- not many could really get through that okay. The incredible storyteller who fears death, kings, and unconsciously, men as a whole -- creating Agartha as a subtle way of ensuring none of them harm her while she prepares her ultimate plan of revealing magecraft to the entire world. However, as with the other Agartha characters, she becomes cripplingly one-note. Bringing her fear of death above all else, she comes off as an unreasonable asshole, constantly freaking out about death and preserving exclusively herself to a fault. While one could argue it's partially due to a Pillar's influence, Phenex doesn't seem to have a hold on her at all -- it's a basic alliance, and nothing more, as the ending shows us. It just leaves her as a one-note death avoider, with no other character traits at all. I'd go into further detail, but I'm saving that for later.

Fergus: God fucking damnit, man. A literal child version of Fergus, who the entire cast constantly expects to sexually harass every woman in sight. He's a one-note flanderization of Fergus, just without the one character trait Agartha gave Fergus. It just makes him... boring, a character whose only character trait is his refusal to hit a woman. Like... Come on. The fact the entire team is so sure this literal child will start trying to hit on women is just uncomfortable to witness, and the fact he slowly starts gaining these traits feels less like him 'meeting his fate' as Fergus, and more like Agartha wants an excuse to sexually harass more of the cast.

The Fucking Ending I'm giving this its own category, because of just how much of a punch to the face it was. In short -- the plan to reveal magecraft is revealed, more jokes are made, bla bla bla. Agartha can't keep a serious mood at all. ...But the final few scenes take it to a whole other extreme.

Wu Zetian comes out of nowhere despite being squashed by Megalos earlier, stuffing Phenex into a pit of her weird water shit, placing Phenex in a state of 'life and death.' Child Fergus then sac's his own Spirit Origin to summon Fergus inside himself(???), thus gaining the power of Caladbolg to weaken Phenex enough for the player to destroy. ...However, Child Fergus just summoned Fergus inside his own body. So, what happens when you put Agartha!Fergus, a one-note sexual harasser, into the body of a child? You get the final scene of Agartha. For some reason, I guess you need more help from others to take out Phenex. To this end, Fergus decides to convince Schez to join their side. I'd like you to recall that FGO!Scheherazade is implied to have the trauma of Shahryar's abuse, sexual and physical, burned into her memory -- not just the whole death thing. In every form of the story, Shahryar abuses her in such a fashion almost nightly. It's to the point where Schez' first line of defence, and much of her skills, are as much oriented around storytelling as they are charm and seduction (moreso the former than the latter, albeit), because her defence mechanism was that as much as it was storytelling, to keep her abuser happy. This is a part of why Agartha is the way it is -- to keep such men away from her. Hell, there's not a single King in sight, save technically Fergus, and Chaldea's d'Eon and Astolfo. Fergus knows this. Hell, he heard this being called out. He's well aware how terrified she is. So, what does he do?

SEXUALLY HARASS HER. He claims she has to live to have kids. That men and women have to live to have kids. He claims that she should live, because he'd smash her. ...Now, that's insulting enough -- moreso, that it's played dead serious. Nobody even as much as calls him on such a shitty persuasion tactic, and nobody even mentions how awful it is to sexually harass a woman who'd been sexually assaulted at best for the better part of almost three straight years. AND IT. FUCKING. WORKS.

SCHEHERAZADE. IS IMPLIED. TO BE INTO IT.

And because of this, she's swayed to join the heroes and seal Phenex away for good -- giggling about how Fergus' worldview was partially correct even as she fades away. The epilogue features Fergus, sexually harassing Scheherazade ON SIGHT -- calling out 'tits on my 12:00' or whatever, as Scheherazade darts off. However, Schez isn't avoiding him due to trauma. She's avoiding it because, while she's into it, she doesn't want to 'die' so fast. This fucking ending highlights among the biggest issues with this damned Singularity. Even Blavatsky coming out of fucking nowhere to Deus Ex Machina a grail and help into Guda's hands -- despite seemingly being slaughtered by Columbus in a (admittedly a bit funny) way to get the base of the Resistance -- means nothing to me compared to the blatant slaughter of two characters at once. Fergus is a total horndog even outside of Agartha's reach, but he even notes he respects his partners' consent, and doesn't overstep his bounds if he makes them uncomfortable. Scheherazade isn't exactly trusting in the slightest, least of all in Agartha - she barely even begins trusting Guda due to Guda treating her with actual respect. Even then, she isn't actively prostrating herself for Guda in that sense, very likely due to the fact that's more of a defence mechanism to her rather than something she'd enjoy, due to extreme trauma. Albeit, Fate writing does leave the possibility in the air for Guda specifically, but that's very likely just due to Guda being Guda and being careful to treat her properly and help her than anything else (and also the whole 'self insert harem' thing, I guess, but that's a hell of a lot easier to ignore esp in contrast to Agartha) And yet, we see that epilogue, that butchers both of them in one fell swoop so badly that I almost ended up hating both of them. Agartha's biggest problem is that it tried to be deep and intriguing, while having the writing quality of the goddamned Valentine's events. It picked all the right characters to have an incredibly intriguing storyline, and fell flat because the author decided that playing sexual harassment, d'Eon's everything, and even the most serious scenes for comedy was more important than telling a story even half as meaningful as the chapters before it. Lo and behold -- to my knowledge, Minase wrote it. Of course he did. He chose the best, the most interesting characters he could find, and made them so fucking one-note that the story lost all its charm in moments. He chose to emulate Nasu without understanding what made Nasu's writing so good. He chose to make Agartha a laugh fest despite simultaneously trying to make it 'deep.' He chose to fall head-over-ass over a possibly interesting allegory into misogyny and fall right into sexualizing it to the point of feeling like a femdom BDSM fic. And go figure the only character he did decently was Christopher fucking Columbus. I have a hatred for Agartha I can't reasonably place anywhere else. Prillya was just as shitty, but I ignored it, because Prillya itself wasn't great, so of course the crossover sucks too. Valentine's events written by him weren't great, but whatever, it's a Valentine's event. Septem, written by someone else, was similarly not great. But it wasn't insulting. It simply wasn't great, and had a lot of wasted potential. But its ending wasn't out of character to the point of being insulting. Its story didn't make incredible mythological and historical figures too infuriating to like anymore. It didn't almost ruin entire Fate characters for me. Not the way Agartha did. I should probably contextualize that Scheherazade is among my favourite mythological figures. I introduced myself to her through Magi (lmao) due to further research into the base stories -- as well as a favourite Magic: The Gathering card, Shahrazad, which forced you to play a game within your game, like how Arabian Nights featured stories within stories.

Even in Fate outside of Agartha, I liked her. Her design didn't make much sense to me considering her character, but whatever, I didn't need to think too hard of it. It's just a design, and despite my hatred of Penth's design, I still love Penth as a character, so I can handle Schez. But Agartha painted her in such a way that all the subtlety and interesting parts of Schez went completely out the window. No longer was there any hidden references to the aftereffects of her life beyond 'i dun wan die,' and there was hardly an ounce of sympathy or kindness in her bones at all. While her being an anti-hero made some sense, especially as she was only a normal person with far above-average storytelling prowess, there was a point when she stopped being a 'good, but terrified person' and started being a complete asshole. And Agartha was that time. If it weren't for her Interlude, which redeemed her considerably, and Ooku, which did wonders for her character despite being written by Minase (as I believe Nasu was overseeing him at that point), I very likely would've never gone for her at all, despite my love of the myth. In Conclusion This rant is just to say that Agartha is bad. Horrific. Insulting, even. At every step where it could've been good, it tumbled head-over-ass into the most insulting, uncomfortable shit you could imagine. It failed to take itself seriously, and paced itself like a comedy event, but simultaneously acted as if it expected its audience to take it seriously. Like a clown brigade deciding to take on Les Mis, it loses all of its punch when every few lines is interrupted by a jab at Fergus, sexual harassment, or something that comes close to being cool before suddenly turning into a badly-timed joke, or suddenly becoming laden with dialogue so sexual it feels straight out of a porno. It's aggravating, awful, and with only brief reprieves of bareable comedy in between long, long lengths of hellish text and awful characterization. The only good part was the gameplay -- which, laden with interesting mechanics not seen elsewhere, was legitimately fun. My take? Avoid all Agartha cutscenes and plot, and just play the gameplay. The gameplay's fun, and if enjoyed on its own, would probably make for a far better experience than observing the story surrounding it. But good gameplay doesn't make up for a horrible story, especially in a game where plot is as important as it is in F/GO. Agartha's a pile of shit in my eyes, but that's ultimately only my opinion, and nothing more. If others have an opinion counter to mine, that's completely fine -- and don't let this analysis ruin your fun with Agartha if you enjoyed its plot. To be frank, I'd be happy if you enjoyed it where I could not. And if you think my takes are misinformed, or if I missed a spot (or overreacted to a spot), that's what the reblogs and comments are for! I'm definitely not the kind of dude who has the final say in matters like this -- this is only what I picked up. Thank you for reading!

#fate grand order #fate #f/go #fate/grand order #mash kyrielight #agartha #agartha fgo #tldr i hated it lol #agartha spoilers #rape tw #rape cw

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elizabethrobertajones · 5 years

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14x04 watching notes

Happy Birthday, Davy!

Mittens just ominously warned me to warm up this notepad while I waited for the episode to finish downloading.

The nice guy from the phone provider has recently restored our internet after 4 days of radio silence from me, but it's only about 4'o clock on friday, so really some good timing!

Expectations: pre-mittens warning, Davy back on his nonsense with the scary episodes and expected nonsense of sinking back into MotW after mytharc but in capable hands because, you know, new writing team is aces and all.

post-mittens warning: idk but I should get a stuffed toy?

That's a suspicious amount of ghost lore.

Has Heaven started dumping the spirits out now and if it really IS a ghost it's not going to behave properly?

Oh my god it's a Hell Hazers poster.

There was something I would have talked about pre-episode but had no internet so didn't, but the focus on Dean and nerds and the expectation that this episode would be about a comic book store, did remind me of 9x07 and the action figure which was all "i clobber evil!" and was a strong Dean mirror, including that he needlessly burned it on the stove to try and get rid of the ghost of the mom but it turned out she needed to be talked into letting her son let her go in a scene which has all sorts of shades of Dean vs Mary in 12x22 now and also Dean's entire mark of cain arc was in the self-destruction of his self as an action figure that clobbered evil. A reminder that Dean is this figure seems fairly timely with him coming down from being possessed, as of course he has been used as an action figure. And his willingness to turn himself into one in 13x23 was very much turning himself into the Michael Sword, which in this cosmos is practically like the rarest collectible action figure of the universe. This harks back all the way to the first season and Dean's issues with John's control and the whole blunt little instrument arc, also something that fed directly into demon!Dean, and is being reflected this season in Nick, who murdered a guy with a hammer, after his family was murdered by a hammer, and said yes to Lucifer because of all that angst about hammer murder. Subtle.

Anyway, this is sort of the emotional background to me for action figures in the show.

A Hell Hazers poster also reminds us that Dean is a horror fan, his own connections to the genre, a CLASSIC episode, and a time when he was living his best life briefly.

You know, before he sold his soul for *waves at previous big paragraph* reasons

Fitting for how season 13 ended with Dean this close to happy world peace retirement living his best life :P

Awww the fake movie the MotW comes from is called All Saints Day. Davyyy :')

People I know who are born on like October SECOND consider themselves extra spooky halloween people. I can only imagine what it does, as a 23rd Oct. birthday person, to the psyche to actually be born ON it.

This episode's subtitle is just "Lol I have the best birthday, fuckers"

ACTUAL CLIP FROM 2x18!

And the fucking racist truck >.> Which in-universe was teased as another different movie using the footage in the trailer for Hell Hazers II.

My mum has that exact Wonder Woman figure

This guy is wearing a trenchcoat-featured jacket with a maroon t-shirt under it. I could not tell you what he represents but the trenchcoat part is amusing.

I can't *actually* start saying everything is party!Cas symbolism though so I'll just shush

Er this rando that people were saying was dressed like Sam from the promo images literally is called Sam, and she's wearing a very very loud checkered shirt, of course featuring a lot of orange. I'm guessing with that info it's next to impossible to say she ISN'T in some way a Sam parallel :P

Comic Book Guy is possibly caught in the middle of stealing an action figure, and I can't work out if he is just nervous about that or has a crush on Sam because his behaviour was so suspect, but from the promo scene where he looks a lil worse for the wear he talks about breaking up with his goth gf, and Sam is very clearly a nerd, not a goth.

(Goth nerds are things. The media will get there one day :P)

Oh okay after a few lines of the exchange, yeah this guy is a dick, I have NO clue why he's wearing that coat symbolism wise, and Sam really ought to fire him because wow, uncool and also he seems to be a stereotypical nerdbro gatekeeper who would literally rather scare off customers but be right than just enjoy what they all enjoy together.

Then he apologises for getting angry for saying he just gets spun out sometimes. Honestly, this seems to be crossing over into Dean territory considering the last thing from the recap was Dean being told he was like Michael by Bad Kaia and being really angry when he said he was nothing like him... He also used "spun out" about himself in 12x20 but in rather more tragic lost-Cas circumstances but obviously this parallel has a different lesson to tell than just making them equivalent. This guy is so awful and is using his anger in a petty way over things that don't really matter. He's getting spun out over made up battles rather than real angst, and whether he has his own underlying trauma that makes him behave that way or not, the straight white nerd is one of the secondary main villains of the century so far after the literal alt right, with some overlap of course. Think Kylo Ren as one of the dominant critiques of this behaviour :P Compared to the open of 8x11 for example, where the nerds were harmless weirdoes despite also being straight white and obsessive, the aggression and obsession are played not just as a harmless trait of people who like LARPing and collecting toys, but gatekeep, yell at kids over superman facts, and refuse to have their own dominance challenged.

Thinking he could fight superman might actually explain the Cas like jacket - it's too short to be a coat - that he idealises these heroes, is wearing Batman (who in pop culture most recently was around "v superman") and Cas of course has all his superman comparisons from both 6x20, and his rebirth in 12x01 where he came back to earth as a fiery comet and was immediately mistaken for a spaceman. There's some dark idolisation/mirroring here, that he's debating how to fight the guy (krytonite gloves = the BMoL knuckledusters) and at the same time mirroring the show's Superman in his dress. Only much, much lesser. More subtextual mockery about his weakness and how he doesn't really measure up.

I think in a lot of ways the discourse about nerds in pop culture is moving on now to make this difference clear, that the ones who will be mocked are the ones who deserve it for being too cruel to respect, while in many other ways the mainstreaming of nerd culture into pop culture, meaning a large amount of it is no longer mockable, that everyone had at least SOME nerdy indulgences, means that in general nerdom is more accepted and exalted than ever. SPN obviously having its own deep roots into nerd culture has some direct room for commentary here, and this is also a way of reminding its own fans to be cool and not to be this guy.

Oh, huh, he safely exited the shop. I did not see that coming.

LOL he has batman bedding on a fold out bed in either a shed, garage or basement where he lives.

(This detail was tragic in Attack the Block but it's quite clear in this case the guy is fully grown and is being used as a detail to show his forward progression in life)

Wow, you really have some rage issues here. Especially trying to wrangle free pizza i mean dude. Talk about a line that personifies him 100 different ways in one go :P Who shouts at their pizza delivery place?? They remember your number! This is how to get extra toppings.

Oh my god please get beaten to death by this lil guy

(I know I know he survives he's in the promo)

Is this like... haunted kidney episode... but better?

Actually, Fallen Idols plus Mannequin episode but better.

You know how we saw in the last new year? Watching Small Soldiers for the first time since like the 90s or whenever it came out

The show's animation is so much better

Than Small Soldiers and itself from past years

Oh DEAN

I mean he totally deserves a day off.

I can't believe he owns these socks. Who got them for him for Christmas?

Okay, well first we have to work out which was the last Christmas they had where they were not in prison or in an alternate dimension or dead or -

Cas. It was Cas.

He literally had no idea this wasn't just a cute commentary on how much Chinese take out Dean eats

Anyway as far as I can tell Dean is living out the bisexualdemondean header just to spite Michael for defiling his temple. He's filling it with noods and pizza (and I am sure he didn't yell at the delivery guy, but tipped him well instead for making drop offs at a shady street corner miles from where anyone lives)

Honestly it's been 12 years since Hell Hazers II... What took them so long

Dean's drunk a full thing of Margiekugle mom beer, which is a lil worrying just in terms of him using it instead of comfort from her like in 12x02, now that she's back.

God I want Dean to meet the asshole from the comic shop and for him to get into a dick measuring contest about Hell Hazers II and Dean to be like uh I WORKED on it you ass

Er, does that vending machine contain the nougat of choice of your consumptive son on the other side of the wall?

(who may be out with Cas concealing his consumption on a case so not bothered by all this TV noise)

God I love and have missed Dean, my trashy guy who is sitting hugging a pillow like a teen girl at a sleepover to watch his hatchetman slasher to celebrate being back to himself and get the much-needed R&R, since, you know, last time we saw him he threatened to "break" Kaia and was in a very very bad place (lol)

This guy about to get murdered for trying to snatch a nougat bar is dressed like the unfortunate bandmate (Tommy?) to Vincifer. Is this an oblique Ladyheart reference to set up a weird scenario where Hatchetman is punishing a Lucifer-adjacent asshole for trying to steal Nougat?

I can't believe there's a red exit sign behind him which means Wanek is Waneking in multiple dimensions at once

"Mint Condition" flashes up over Dean indulging in his pizza, saying, hey look it's our guy back in shape. Or, you know, ironically so. Either because Dean being Dean means eating junk food and wallowing because his husband has wandered off with the kid and isn't home to snuggle him while he does this mandatory bedrest, or because, of course, Dean is not Mint Condition at all. He's literally and emotionally scarred.

I am pretty sure this shirt that Sam has on is 12 years old.

Statistically, they're gonna get murdered in each and every one of their original Kripke era shirts until none of them are available to be murdered in later.

I say for no particular reason.

Leave Sam alone. He doesn't shave you mock him, he does shave, you... also mock him. He was doing really well while you were gone! No one got even slightly stabbed who didn't deserve it! This is an all-time record. A beard is a price to pay for that.

Honestly I think Dean is stoned but they're not going to say so but I am treating this scene like it is.

"I wanted to check up on you," Sam says, pulling over a chair. This is so like how he was in 14x01 when he was powering around the Bunker being the boss, and given Dean's been on bedrest, again, much-needed, Sam is treating him like another one of his charges, and once more is in a position of authority... But now, despite shaving to act like nothing has changed a bit more, he is the one in charge of Dean as one of his wards. Everything has changed. Your dynamic is actually wobbling in a weird way.

In season 10 when Dean was laid up with the Mark blues especially around 10x12, which this intro also reminds me of, re: Dean spending a week in his room and Sam popping in to check on him, Sam was still keeping a very wary eye on Dean more that he was a bomb that may explode, and that while he needed to be managed, the power dynamic was extremely, extremely horrifying in that if Sam messed up Dean would murder him. Not an ongoing implicit threat between them, but the knowledge that Dean could become a demon again and demon!Dean would attempt to kill Sam, and so Sam had better do his utmost to keep Dean in a good place. Even if it eventually meant a series of convoluted secrets to try and fix him against his wishes.

Obviously, things are different here. Sam has developed a LOT since then, with season 11 beginning a recovery of his character in tentative little steps which actually kicked off in season 12, and, specifically, in 12x04 under Davy Perez in American Nightmare heralding the new era of Sam focus and lovingly stroking his hair and lavishing him with Sam-sculpted episodes the like of which we hadn't seen all through Carver era.

Now when Sam comes into Dean's room and pulls up a chair and sits down to check up on him, he actually radiates a comfortable, competent authority to do so.

... however he is doing it in that pink shirt which I honestly love the concept of but just wish that I couldn't see Sam in 2x06 showing up in it for the first time, like, my brain is just screaming at him to go get a bunch more pink shirts and refresh his wardrobe

I'm so certain of it but now I have to check because 12 years is such a long time but

http://www.homeofthenutty.com/supernatural/screencaps/albums/SPN2x06/SPN_0060.jpg

Mittens yelled "OH MY GOD" when I sent her the link so I think I'm right

Like, conceptually in every way it's great because it's this long pink shirt that fits him well, fuck toxic masculinity, blah blah action heroes in pink shirts, love it love it love it, but also: it's another fucking plaid shirt Sam has owned since he was a gap-toothed child six years younger than Jack presents as

Dean is lacking his second bedside table, as he has been for seasons, but I'm just staring at him lying sideways on his bed, wondering about his set up, and if this is in any way similar to how he watched all those cowboy movies with Cas, since Davy, of course, was the one to suggest that they had been watching movies together.

"And... not that I'm complaining... House is full of strangers"

Yeah, we know you hate it, Dean. God, it's tragic. In a wonderful way. Sam's built this little empire for himself and it's on top of Dean's old nesting spot. Dean's been forced into his room not just to hide away because he's ashamed but because he doesn't want to be seen and there's too many strange eyes out there. However this resolves, it's going to force some growth. Honestly, as much as Dean loves this room and it means to us, it's also a bleak lonely spot and in the like 7 years they've had the Bunker, Dean's never hooked up in that bed, while it has come to be very much like, well... The bed of an angry nerd living in a basement still using Batman sheets. Again, dark parallels, but of Dean in a dark place.

I'd love if he moved out and got a house in the suburbs.

I mean.

Cas has a house in the suburbs.

(Re: long-running Lizzy watching notes in-jokes about where he stashes a bunch of stuff like demon tablets, first blades, metatron's grace, etc etc)

But yeah, no. I like the idea of Dean nesting, of course. But aside from the obvious conveniences, the Dean Cave, etc, there's no reason it HAS to be here except that this is their inheritance and it's safe. But as I constantly talk about with the library abutting the war room, the work/life balance is always in question and filling the Bunker with strangers is a great way to shove all the life balance out, and leave the only spot left of that to Dean in this room.

If the AU peeps don't all get sent home but remain at least in part a hunter community and maybe even network and grow as the Winchesters finally open up the Bunker's resources and share them and stop being all isolated like Carver era fiercely protected... Dean might have no choice but to move his nesting down the road to somewhere with a sofa where he can park his car out front, and choose to commute in to work.

Awww they have the "our lives are a scary movie" argument again, in a well-worn way. So well-worn this is repeating dialogue from somewhere or other... 2x18? 4x07? God I don't know, implicit in Sam's eyerolling at Halloween in 1x01? All of the above? I am not looking that up. But anyway their stances haven't moved, possibly because this is something that has never really been challenged before. If Sam didn't hate scary movies already, watching 18 hours of Hell Hazers II dailies probably did in any remaining sympathy he would have had towards them, while Dean thrived there.

I guess he may finally have had time to watch it?

And of course stay for the credits to see his name.

Anyway Dean has historically cited movies as research or job adjacent, or vicariously enjoyed watching monsters at work from the safe remove of a screen, while Sam throws it all in to that box where of course it goes to 1x01 where he's running away from ALL of it and has his oddly specific choices to avoid halloween in his day to day as Lawboy. He's struggled to indulge in the weird as a hobby, likes serial killers as, as far as we can diagnose, an outlet of darkness but purely human, and keeps the work/life balance in a rather unhealthy way of denial and boxing things away, because so much of his early seasons arcs were about resisting the life and refusing the call. This harks back to their literal first episode characterisations of Dean being all in and Sam being all out and it's interesting to have us back here in season 14, in a period of such deep reflection, when Sam has finally sort of accepted the life, found a niche in the work that suits him as the boss, and Dean is struggling now with retirement questions, and taking a week off, not liking his home full of strangers, etc etc.

"More Michael Monsters?" Dean asks immediately quick fire when Sam says he has a case.

He may have taken a week off to indulge in pizza but that obsession lurks under his skin. He's in no way done, though I think perhaps better prepared to enter this case than he had been, though of course he's billed as still struggling.

Dean also instantly recognises the Thundercats name, and I'm afraid it's something I'm just not familiar with, that I clearly missed some wave of it when I was younger and it hasn't come back around as an adult... I can't wait to read stuff by people who know more about it and say tragic things about Dean's connection to it. But the important thing here is the dark mirror to the guy who got beat up by the toy, because Dean is being shown as also an enthusiastic nerd who knows the franchise and is excited by this concept and is leaping into a case about it with a "strippers, Sammy. Finally!" level of enthusiasm.

Healthy nerds and unhealthy nerds. But at the same time, Dean might be a better nerd, but his anger last episode is still being examined through this guy.

I love that for Sam and Dean, dressing up for Halloween is dressing up like total nerds in a totally different pop culture way - the old appearance of geeks which is wildly outdated but damned if they aren't putting on pocket protectors anyway. It's a caricature but it's one that is at total odds with who they are as people... More of a traditional halloween thing where normally Sam and Dean are really scary people with weapons, so when you make them dress all topsy turvy, they dress like this instead. They ARE halloween costumes, in their day to day.

Dean continues watching in the shop, Sam eyes up the Red Hood.

I watched that a million years ago with no idea that Jensen was in it, though I had watched the first couple of seasons at that point. I think it was during my "aww the show was cancelled" phase where it was completely off my radar. It's hilarious to me now, because I don't think I COULD watch it, now I know Jensen's voice so disproportionately well. It would be so off-putting.

"She's like your twin."

Sam and Sam both tuck their hair behind their ears at the same moment.

"What are you talking about?"

So. This is going to be extremely subtle.

I hope New Sam survives the episode D:

Sam points out the other guy who people were saying based off the promo pics would be the Dean to this girl's Sam with no idea what was to come. He and Dean in this case are both eating lollipops purloined from the halloween candy.

I guess this guy in the All Saints Day t-shirt shares Dean's love of the same franchise, and seems to represent the bizarre venn diagram with Dean on one side and Andrew Dabb on the other. Their nerdy overlap.

I feel like Sam is just pointing out this character mirror to be an annoying sibling and wow do I love seeing them like this.

I also feel like there is no way Davy would do this if he wasn't about to troll the fuck out of us with these parallels in some terrifying meta way and pointing out that character parallels are a thing this blatantly is about to be Awful somehow.

The Red Hood is staring disapprovingly at them through all of this

Anyway of course Dean Parallel immediately recognises Dean's enthusiasm for Hatchetman and encourages him to press the button, which Dean does with glee. I CLOBBER EVIL. Wait no.

Sometimes we do bad things.

Oh dear.

Oh deeeeeeeeeeear.

Yeah, Hatchetman is like... idk, michael!Dean or something. Or some dark part of Dean where all his violence is and this twisted version is almost like the burned result of the I Clobber Evil hero being melted by Dean and - too meta, I am in pain.

"Vintage hot wheels!"

I know what you want because I have a smol 67 impala on my shelf. Nyoom.

He has an eeny weenie mystery machiney so he can make them race.

Okay guy who got beat up by a toy is called Stuart (I am so bad at names, honestly.)

Of course he got kicked out by his roomie for being insufferable about something as pointless as subs vs dubs, and Sam is already apologising for him before they even go meet him.

Considering there's 3 people working at the shop and Stuart had a trenchcoat, but is also being mirrored to Dean, darkly, I feel like there might be some serious shuffling going on here that surface level, Stuart had that Cas marker, but... yeah

Heeee Dean stealing the Flash mug and making Sam have the one with the cats all over it. One mug representing Stuart, one representing his mum.

I mean it is Sam's turn to have a relationship with THEIR mom this season. Idk if the mugs are actually symbolic over anything other than Dean living his best geek life right now.

I mean he's added the glasses to his ensemble, he's really living it up.

I hope he's still wearing Send Noods under this

Awww it's hot apple cider. What a good mom. This is a perfect halloween drink.

*Stuart Rage Sounds from below*

Wow this is subtle that he has some rage issues.

"Campbell and sons insurance" Hey remember when I said that this whole season's emotional set up with Sam's ownership of the AU peeps reminded me of season 6 and the Campbells? They also literally are the sons of Mary Campbell, so.

No lies, at least, with some serious stretching of the truth.

God, the detail that Dean has played Zelda.

He's being nerdy out loud constantly, and without much fear of judgement. It's wonderful. I guess he's been jostled up enough by Michael that he doesn't really care to hide this random pointless thing that in the grand scheme why should he be ashamed, and also he feels so much worse about other things that this is just an escape to have fun. It also reminds me of last season when he was mourning Cas except that this indulgence Sam is allowing him is co-sponsored by Dean and he's throwing himself into enjoying the smaller things and being more openly Dean-ish than he has in a while. Like, I don't think character comparisons to 8x11 for the nerds is the only way the episodes link :P

In 8x11 Dean's initial reaction to LARPing is that it looks awesome, then he corrects at a look from Sam to being more judgy. In 9x04 as scripted, Sam is surprised that Dean want to read Game of Thrones. So idk if that's just Robbie character interpretations since my 2 surface level examples are from his episodes or if that's just been where open nerdery has lived in past years, but anyway. Sam isn't stopping Dean from indulging in the same way - it seems he also recognises Dean's nerdiness and is less threatened by it than before, in the sense that he doesn't feel like Dean isn't acting himself, but now accepts the nerdiness is a part of Dean.

"Who needs goth girl drama" dude you are the most awful over-dramatic asshole on the show now Lucifer is dead

LOL he's trying to lie about being attacked by a toy now, and Dean points out that he got whooped so thoroughly he was beaten on the back and genitals - so yeah we look at his face and wiiiiince

"Lady you wasn't kidding."

"Big Bang in there..."

Goodness are we calling out the Big Bang theory for its toxic nerdery? Love it.

Sam and Dean halloween costumed as total nerds, still driving around in the Impala. The reverse of someone rolling up in a boring old modern car and, like, a bunch of Draculas get out.

Sam can shave off the beard but it can't stop him Bobby-ing

Dean side-eyes this

"Yeah, it was Riley, he'll be fine."

"I don't know who Riley is, but cool."

God, I am so into this whole dynamic.

Tell me more, Davy.

"So seriously, what is your deal with halloween?"

"I don't like it"

Dean, I am watching this episode on November 2nd, just so you know.

Anyway. This is literally. 1x01's opening adult Sam moment. But Dean's going back to poke Sam about it since he's someone Sam won't lie to in the same way that Sam was concealing his entire being from Jess. I mean this isn't subtle - in 1x01 Dean calls Sam out for doing this. But then, Sam doesn't exactly develop beyond it - in season 8 he does this with Amelia.

Because obviously if Sam is going to move forward and develop there's still things which are not addressed. And if Dean is having his idea of home and work challenged, and his nest disrupted until perhaps he will fly it... Sam has never ever actually addressed his work/life balance in the meaningful way where... like... this was how his difference was introduced when we first ever meet lil babby Sam smiling innocently at us on screen as a kid who has the whole future ahead of him and no idea what torment he's gonna go through. 14 years later, if he's ever going to be a grown up who can handle himself in a relationship and know what is work and what is life and how he can watch halloween movies and not feel personally offended by them but enjoy them as a fantasy and a way of boxing off their world into a safe place they don't have personal responsibility for...

Maybe he might just get a girlfriend who he can tell he is a hunter. Like. Dude. Dean was past that step before the show ever STARTED thanks to his time with Cassie.

Sam, also, metaphorically is an angry guy living in his mom's basement, but perhaps in a more metaphorical way where it's to do with living his whole life under the shadow of his mom horrifically dying as a result of the supernatural and being brought up feeling like a freak and just wanting to be normal and all

wheeee

Anyway Dean is probing for actual answers so I assume Davy will give us a solution to this this episode, but this is my take on it before we get into it properly.

Alternative hypothesis: Davy is personally offended that Sam doesn't like halloween despite it being the best holiday, is determined to fix that and fuck canon, characters can change even 14 years later.

"Don't give me this 'every day is halloween' crap because one it aint, we don't eat that much candy"

I have missed Dean and I love him with every fibre of my being, brb I need to vibrate out of existence at the sheer joy of knowing him

That was the worst "we aren't here staking out your house" move I have ever seen.

You are professionals who have been doing this together for 14 years

why was that so laughably bad?

The youtube comments are so cutting and a bunch of them are unfortunately true. It's self-awareness of using the loser nerd trope but also, cutting in a way because of course Stuart is coming across so much as someone who deserves it - and we're starting to see his mom is sweet and doesn't seem to have caused any trauma in a surface read, and that he was the one who dumped his online gf, and he starts other fights at work or with roomies, so this is getting more and more into territory where he seems fully to blame for his own situation, and therefore you CAN mock him for living in mom's basement, because he PUT himself there, and is single because he chose to be, and so on. The pervading sense that if he was a nicer person, none of this would be happening to him, right down to him stealing the toy in the first place.

Oh boy, the bloody handprint on the wall... We are back in handprint territory, and, you know, maybe because SOMEONE walking past it has been scarred on the wrong shoulder by the actions of an angel or something

There's a chinese take out carton on the shelf in this basement. I doubt it's a collectible.

Send noods.

Okay, that's sort of weird.

If the mom is in costume I don't get the reference. I hope someone else has handled that.

We're going to get her POV on her loser son now, I guess.

"Everything's fine :)" *leaves the room* "everything is not fine!"

Are we calling them out for using "fine" so loosely again too huh?

(Side note: Jack saying he's fine while consumptive, and yeah I am still upset about that. What are you doing to the boy????)

Dean and Sam split up and as Sam walks off a nurse eyes him up and smiles. No idea how intentional that was but I mean, can you blame her? :P

You know, I don't know anything about this franchise, but Sam just jumped to see a toy of a guy who looks weirdly similar to the vampires that ATE HIM a few weeks ago.

He checks over his shoulder in case Dean manifested at his side just in time to see that

Awww Dean and New Dean meet. "he must have awesome insurance"

He calls Stuart's mom "Babs" which is hilarious. They seem close.

New Dean has issues with his dad and Stuart lets him crash with him no questions asked. I suppose Dean isn't going to think too hard about how Sam's choice for his parallel has issues with his dad.

This forgiveness for Stuart's behaviour because he's kind to his own people is a very TFW trait, which makes New Dean more like Sam or Cas forgiving Dean his outbursts, as he's by far the ragiest of them, with Cas trailing in second and Sam the zen fucking master.

Lol Dean and New Dean are both dragged into the room to watch All Saints Day 3 like they're being pulled in on a line

Oh dear, they're bonding.

Davy isn't usually on top of these things but he's channeling a lot of Edlund today and Edlund always had these sort of guys like Andy or Aaron who are so Dean's type in a harmless shared interests and getting stoned together way. This is a bit extreme with the guy's tininess and scruffiness but you know, we'll see how this develops, if it's an accidental twins or a missed connections soulmate dealio.

... You're taking to someone who's still bitter that Andy and Dean would have been perfect together, so.

Also this New Dean guy is demonstrating how to be a Good Fan - he may be as intensely nerdy as Stuart, but he and Dean can compare movies and even though they don't share a favourite, agree that the whole series is great and can see the merits both in each other's favourites, and in another movie that isn't either of their favourites but could be if they happened to be inclined that way.

So healthy :')

"It was always nice to check out. I like watching movies where I KNOW the bad guy's going to lose"

Ow ow ow. But yeah, there's Dean's pro-Halloween rationale, that the tropeyness of the genre has its comforts that every ridiculous horror thing is entirely safe and no one is ACTUALLY going to get eaten by any of these things. Which is also how normal people enjoy horror but at the metaphorical remove of being scared by things we may not literally meet but still represent anxieties we might have in our real lives.

Catharsis, yo

Sam barges in on New Sam to ask her the usual series of increasingly weird questions which get the "are you really insurance?" eyebrows.

"Downtown Salem" - are they in Salem as in the witch hunt one?

I kinda love how New Sam is talking with a speech bubble beside her. So meta.

I think New Dean is called Dirk.

Oops Stuart wasn't one of the co-owners because he kept getting fired for stealing D: Stuart, dude.

"And you hired Stuart back?" "he's my friend"

I think there is commentary appearing here about not just Stuart's unhealthy explosive rage, but that the people around him enable it - even Jordan fired him TWICE rather than banish him forever. The cycle of coddling him without encouraging him to change... Again, this speaks rather more of season 10 and a critique of Sam n Cas from there rather than much currently ongoing with Dean. Sam was complicit in originally abducting Kaia and he and Jody didn't move to stop Dean with Bad Kaia, so though it's in the focus as a critique on Dean's reactions, I feel like the real bad cycles were in Carver era. Though the behaviour still somewhat exists in Dabb era, the overall unhealthiness has declined so much, there isn't a constant oppresive blanket of it as there is here in this shop with Stuart being so awful to everyone and self-destructive.

(It's probably also not a coincidence that this thing has latched onto Dean as well, a la 4x06 I'd guess... Sam got no ghost vibes in the basement, Dean did, and was attacked... To me this is seeming to suggest that his current state has picked up the ghost's ire in the same way in 4x06 he was vulnerable. Loops and loops of things going on so I'll unpick that later if it does turn out to be the case clearly.)

Anyway. This seems to be more about destructive cycles and abusive dynamics, and I would hope a nudge for Dean, though his exile at the start of this episode also suggests to me he knew full well after threatening Kaia that he'd overreacted and needed to take 5, even if there was also a layer of sulking until news of Michael. Her call out was clear enough to make him self-reflect. So I would hope that this episode is here to try and steer Dean's reaction through various pathways, ideally to keep him from falling into anything too awful, as a reminder of where this may lead?

Sam sees the glass case freeze over, and pulls out the EMF, playing it off and being like "nothing... carbon monoxide detector" even as New Sam is understandably a little freaked.

Is this messing with Sam's refusal to tell Jess about monsters by having him keep the truth from New Sam until she's physically endangered?

I mean, carbon monoxide in enough quantities to make the blatantly homemade gadget go "WHEEE" and light up every single LED is a good enough reason to flee the room

"I think you're in danger -" Sam is smacked around the head by Hatchetman because he delayed too long and now he has been knocked out

"Samantha?" Sam determined not to let New Sam out-Sam him

I mean if she is you then she has been knocked out

How does this keep happening to you

how much head trauma has Cas healed over the years?

This is why they have to keep him an angel...

"Is this expensive?" "Wha - no don't!" *BOING* *silence* "yeeeah it's shatterproof glass"

If Jordan really just wants to kill Stuart for getting them a 1 star Yelp review then this also has a weird shade of 11x07 where the ghost was getting revenge and took a few attempts to kill that one guy, eventually succeeding as the clown.

Except the clown was tuned to freak Sam out

and Dean's probably gonna be thrilled to fight Hatchetman

Dean having movie night with new Dean (probably stoned but we can't see it) with comatose Stuart in the middle

incredible

2 dudes watching horror movies 5 feet apart with a comatose guy in the middle because they aren't gay

Dean is thrilled to fight Hatchetman

I feel like this can't last

Davy throws in a gratuitous Halloween moment of Hatchetman walking through the park which is just bedecked in Halloween nonsense

no one cares about him wandering around because it's Halloween

It does make you wonder just HOW much nonsense happening on Halloween really is monsters and stuff out there enjoying themselves because it's expected, which, again, like Sam n Dean dressing up as nerds for this whole episode, having monsters mixing with regular folk and being treated as equals is literally the whole Halloween thing. There's less threat than in 4x07 because we're assuming at this point in the episode that the ghost does have a pretty one-track mind about killing Stuart because with all the characterising nonsense filling the episode the actual plot has been pretty sparse considering we're getting to the final 10 minute run now. So, yeah. This Hatchetman ghost is just out there being a part of the festivities, because that's what happens on Halloween, man

LOL And like Sam not telling his double until it was too late, Dean gets this call and is really open in answering in front of new Dean, and now he's filling in New Dean on everything instead of trying to get him to leave or protect him not just from the monster but from knowing about it at all.

Davy like, hey, remember when ghosts used to do loads of freaky stuff on this show just to be scary? And maybe it seemed like you all were getting bored of it or something, but hey this guy has no idea after 14 years that he shouldn't leave the salt line when everything starts thumping in the room despite having been warned the ghost is coming...

Hehehe Dean gets an axe... The moment of him going to smash it then not and checking if it's open... Whether that was improv or not, it's a good character thing in the sense that Dean is being encouraged not to smash first and ask questions later by the meta plot of the episode

Omg New Dean is as brave as our Dean in some ways... He sees Babs in trouble, and immediately is like "HEY" and starts confronting Jordon in Hatchetman

"He's MY friend. He's OUR friend." That's an interesting take on my/our, because that statement works on both levels - both that Dirk is protective of Stuart because he cares about him, but also that Jordan has his own investment in not killing Stuart that he should remember. In terms of emotional appeal, the first is confrontational while the second is the deep appeal to the ghost.

Filed in the deep deep deep deep deep flips of the crypt scenes, this moment demonstrates about 3 different kinds of flips, while still holding true to possessing thing out of its right mind confronting loved one

Omg the hospital security guards watching the Hatchetman chase a damsel through the hospital while New Dean is chased through THEIR hospital. Talk about dramatic irony and a whole commentary on the metaness of Dabb era in the story reversals and extractions to new levels and repurposing of scenes and narratives...

And despite it playing out scene by scene, the guards are laughing at the bad dialogue and pointing out how Hatchetman is so slow, so how can he even catch them, while the damsel slows herself down and badly fakes a trip so that he can catch up to her...

"We killed you! You're dead!" "We all do bad things sometimes"

And there we get the context for the cool quote the Hatchetman model can recite - just as how in fandom often things are quoted out of context as lines which seem emotional or special but are actually awful. Just for starters, all the Sam n Dean fans using "there aint no me if there aint no you" when Dean didn't even SAY that. Now we see the context of this line, we see that while Hatchetman really isn't deep, he's at least not just saying it to sound cool and talk about himself, he's judging the protagonist for her behaviour, as well as invoking relative morality. Which brings up some interesting ideas about what Hatchetman considers good and evil, in regards to seeming to have a concept of it but not including kill himself as a good thing to do. Obviously completely wild in context but in the philosophical language of the show, the nature of monsters and all is one huge question, along with if Sam and Dean are murderers themselves, and of course how they have done bad things for good reasons and vice versa.

Also I think Sam is about to blow up the door?

"I had a messed up childhood" he says, about to blow up a vintage SCOOBY DOO lunchbox to freedom.

SAMMY. Stop destroying symbols of childhood.

At least he's talking freely to New Sam about himself, which is probably already more than he ever let on to Jess. He really wanted to pretend to be well-adjusted to her, that he probably, like, would have rather waited for a locksmith with her than just pick the door to their apartment if they were locked out, you know?

RIP Scooby Doo.

"Cool" they both say, and share a smile.

It's probably weird to ship Sam and Sam just because the shipname is Sam

Dirk went to hide in the fucking Morgue

well done

Okay I need the security guards back to comment on how the fuck Hatchetman knew New Dean would come to the morgue with enough time to beat him there AND cover himself in a sheet and play dead.

Also before that happened Dean grabbed New Dean by the correct shoulder, and made him jump but aw don't worry it's just your new best friend.

Ghost Jordan is still a fucking nerd even in death because rather than talk to them, he presses the button to summon a catchphrase

It's good to know some things never change even when you are a murderous shell of your former self.

UGH SIGH DAVY ARE YOU REALLY GOING TO DO THIS TO ME?

(The director might also be to blame)

So now they are cobbling together a fake trailer for Hatchetman, using footage from the show

That is to say, Hatchetman is set on Oct. 31st, 1983, or, of course, 2 days before Azazel ruined everything.

I'm not sure if this shot is from the show because we have so few Halloween episodes that an exterior shot with Halloween elements would have to be faked up, but the house looks very much like the old Winchester house, but with a bigger porch and more dramatic features. It does, however, strongly feature the tree branch shadows over the appropriate wall to make it look exactly like the opening shot of their story, while this is the opening shot of the Hatchetman story.

"David Jaeger was an honest man making an honest living" *generic shot of something being worked on*

*shot of the back of John Winchester's head walking into his garage in 5x13 to discover his boss out cold because Anna is about to attempt to murder him, said boss hilariously visible in the shot if you know he's there*

So. That happened :P Hatchetman is John. That ain't subtle if you recognise the back of his head in a split second. Even if you don't they're casting him as a car mechanic which is of course directly connected to Dean and John.

"Until one night when a practical joke turned deadly"

*footage of the wife spectre-rage killing her husband in the cold open of 8x06 because she was still pissed he slept with someone else on prom night*

I think the burning vehicle was the car from 10x13 that Sam and Dean burned early in the episode, where it was violently reminiscent of them burning the memory of John for some meta reason I can't remember at the time, but definitely inspired a lot of frantic fandom typing.

Of course the ghost in that episode was the classic ragey vengeance ghost which was blatantly paralleled to the path Dean was on with the Mark of Cain, complete with being crypt scened out of it by a trenchcoat-wearing widow.

They're implying he was then burned alive and left for dead and I don't recognise the footage of the burned feet but I assume they're from some episode or another.

Anyway then they go to more new footage from the "actual" hatchetman movies. This one is set on Nov. 1st so it's not even a "Halloween" movie but ACTUALLY All Saint's Day (All Hallow's Eve being what Hallowe'en is a corruption of), Nov. 1 being of course a meta nod to the fact the episode is not even airing on Halloween but Davy just really really really really wanted his halloween episode so shut up and enjoy it :P

Oh, it's All Saints Day III The Reckoning. Because of course it's a reckoning. That's all that happens in Dabb era, reckonings.

I am so upset.... I made a joke about 5x05 waaay back, and now it's true because of the whole random thing about Dean's random Axe that was John's that Paris Hilton was going to use to Reckoning him but then Sam murderered her before she could. Now Dean's being reckoned.

Okay Dean is a lil dark right now but his come at me bro of "I was hoping you'd say that" and the preceding speech is incredible. I can't believe this show has Jensen except that I CAN believe that with Jensen we go 14 seasons because FUCK he's scary and intense when he wants to be.

But he delivered that chilling speech and then had the ghost use a red button to talk to him and then was badass at it

I mean

he can put the terror into ANY situation

I am a hysterical laugher, I could not have stood where Dean stood in that moment and taken Hatchetman seriously, even under threat of mortal peril. I once nearly got expelled for hysterical laughing over an untied shoelace that started a rapidly spiralling incident.

I love the new fight guy

I love how Dean is spoiling for a fight, and really enjoying how he can push back against this ghost, in a really, really scary way. But in a cold way, not the red hot Mark of Cain way he was dark last time. He's grinning and enjoying this nerdy ass fight, but it's got a vicious streak.

I especially love the choreography of Dean smashing Hatchetman around the head with clashes in time to the music followed by an elevator ding as Sam and New Sam emerge in the next scene.

Poetic cinema

New Sam guesses the key thing for ghost attachment and Old Sam is impressed.

Careful buddy, they're lining you up for replacement.

Dean seems not to have won this fight with the Hatchetman. I bet if Stuart was awake he'd have some useful advice for how anyone could beat him in a fight but especially Stuart, if they knew the correct thing to do.

New Dean saved Old Dean! Maybe we can teamwork distract the Hatchetman and win together. Possibly this is a metaphor for... working with yourself...

Is it foreshadowing for a fight later in the season of plot significance, just like in 11x07 Sam got beat up by a clown in a cage, as a not too subtle metaphor for Lucifer? I'd love an in Dean's head kinda nonsense with Mikey.

"Dean, key chain!"

TEAMWORK BROS ARE THE BEST BROS

New Sam chips in for her part with fuel for the fire.

Everyone high five the Sam or Dean/Dirk to your left

Oh, COOL effect of a ghostly spirit burning out of a model Hatchetman, who is unscatched by the ordeal

I mean, good, he's probably a really expensive collectible

He falls over with a thud, and goes out on a warbling "time to slice and diiiiiiiii" much like "I clobber evil" died on the fire with a last gutteral noise.

Hopefully bookending each other in terms of models with representations in their voices that haunt Dean and all.

Dean, unprompted, thanks Sam for getting him out of his funk and giving him an easy ghost hunt to win. I guess what 13x05 was supposed to be is what this actually turned out to be.

(Honestly, giving Davy episodes post-drama to let us all unwind is turning out to be an extremely good idea with 13x06 as well)

I am MAJORLY concerned about the time stamp on this episode. It better end in a few seconds and go to a full 3 minute trailer for Hell Hazers III or else.

"It was awesome!" "it wasn't really," says Sam, who burst into the room in time to see his brother pinned and choking

Sam moves on to confronting Dean with the concept of not just hiding in his room when they get back.

He gives Dean the "OI, CHEER UP" talk we've all been yelling at the screen. Good. Good Sammy.

Dean turns to the camera. "I'm never going to get over it. I'm just not."

Look, Sam, just because Dean stabbed Lucifer for you, and now you are sleeping without fear, doesn't mean everyone has that luxury :P

elizabethrobertajones Oh dear, there's still 4 minutes left er I guess I keep watching .... *grimaces nervously*

mittensmorgul :D just watch it in context with the rest of the episode

elizabethrobertajones um what I didn't get far enough into what happens next to know what you mean so that's super ominous Sam is still psychoanalysing Dean in car NOW yo uhave me REALLY worried.

Hey, remember how I started this episode with a vague warning from Mittens? Why am I now getting the feeling that I still haven't watched whatever that was about?

"I'm not doing any good cooped up in my room. So whatever you need, I'm there." ("Chief"?)

"Alright, Chief?"

Oh, man. I'm turning into Dean.

Also Dean appears to have, finally, ceded power over to Sam. Again, the reversals of season 10 - Sam was put in this position of power he just was not ready to cope with and not with the stakes that were laid against him. But here, Dean might be driving the car but he's putting all the real power into Sam's hands.

elizabethrobertajones Is it why Sam hates Halloween because Dean turns out to have set an alarm on his watch to remind him to bug Sam about it again the intrigue you have spun is starting to get to me more than actually watching the episode :P

mittensmorgul oh gosh, I should've just kept my mouth shut. It was seriously just an innocent comment for a nice BM scene :P

I am more horrified about the concept of Sam telling an embarrassing story than I am about any amount of slasher and gore. Look, I can Not handle social squickiness and I love Sam and that is going to make this extremely hard to hear.

Dean's gonna love it though, I can tell.

Please. Protect. Sammy.

"It was soooo bad" he says with a haunted look of a man who has been tortured by the devil

Andrea's party got there first

"Next year, we're doing halloween right"

Oh no, don't you dare start talking like you're going to be alive and ready for a party next year, Dean Winchester. I will perish in your place to make it happen.

BAHAHA Dean coming up with matching outfits and suggests Bert and Ernie, before rejecting that one as too weird.

Yeah, you might not remember but we do

We are never going to let you live it down, in fact.

Also, listen, his mouth runs miles ahead of his brain, that was not suggestive until he realised it was and backtracked

You also can't go as Shaggy and Scooby unless you go to a party WITH them and they go as you and Sam

Thelma and Louise... Dean, stop.

Okay it's hilarious that Davy managed to get both Bert and Ernie and Thelma and Louise into this like... somewhere riiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiight deep down Dean's consciousness is putting things together. It doesn't remember half the shit he says, but like. Hey. Why ARE those two sets of on screen pairs connected, huh, Dean?

Oh, whatever, he's just trying to annoy Sam now

Nyoooom

IT'S THE SECURITY GUARD

RUN, MAN, RUN

Ew, I left it playing to type that and it told me to watch Legacies

Well that was the one wrong note in this whole episode so I suppose something had to happen like that :P

#Davy fanclub #14x04 #season 14 spoilers #oh my god it's good to have the internet back #my stuff

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bigskydreaming · 5 years

Text

Tbh, another part of why I’m so vehemently anti-RPF is like.....one of the first things any legit agent or manager asks an actor when they sign them is if they’re willing to do nude scenes and/or sex scenes. And when there’s an actor whose work you follow cuz you think they’re hot and you notice they’ve never been in any kind of sex scene or even a shirtless scene, that’s not like...by accident, most of the time.

Because a lot of actors aren’t comfortable with nude scenes. And it doesn’t have nearly as much to do with prudishness or religious reasons or any of that stuff as you might assume. I mean, I have done nude scenes. In some pretty big size productions as in with a full crew. And lemme tell you....they are NOT fun. Or sexy. Or hot. Like, even a little bit, lol.

Cuz like, its never just you and another actor in a bedroom. It’s you and another actor naked or close to naked.....in the middle of like.....forty fully dressed crewmen holding cameras and lighting and sound equipment and acting like you’re not just...naked in front of them, even though you and everyone else are actually super aware that yup, you definitely are.

And there’s a million lights on you and set lights are HOT, they make you sweat like crazy, and so when you’re doing a lot of takes and getting sweaty from the lights you constantly have people running up to you between takes and like....toweling you off in a completely unsexy way, lol, and reapplying makeup and the whole time they’re not even talking to you but to each other, like you’re not even there, b/c they’re not trying to be rude but they’re in a hurry, they have to do this fast so there’s not really time to strike up a conversation with you while they do it. But its TOO weird to just be doing it in silence so they usually solve that awkwardness by being in the middle of a convo as they run up to you and your scene partner and just keep continuing it before running back.

And the whole time you’ve got a cranky, stressed and taking it out on everyone director yelling at you to basically...be more sexy, lol, with you having to do take after take after take and not even look just as into it as you did the take before, but dig deep and look even MORE into it. Because you wouldn’t still be shooting if you’d already done it right, you’re obvsly ‘not being sexy right’. And gotta say, lol, nothing makes it easier to feel and thus act sexy than an asshole you’d never sleep with in a million years yelling about how he’s not feeling like he wants to fuck you yet or like you want to fuck him yet. And he’s the audience, he says, he’s the people in the seats of the movie theater watching you pretend-fuck on screen, and so if he doesn’t feel like you wanna fuck him, then how do you expect they’re gonna be able to put themselves in the fantasy and feel like you’re talking to them, like you wanna fuck them? Ick.

So I mean....there’s actually a lot of reasons for actors to not want to do nude scenes, both men and women. Or for them to do one and then never do one again. And that’s not even getting into the after part of things, like....the weirdness of spending several more weeks working closely with several dozen people who have all seen you naked, up close and personal. Or the weirdness of knowing who-knows-how-many ppl out in the general public then have seen it too, fantasized about you, with you having no idea who any of them are, if you’d be like...comfortable with them having that level of intimacy with you if you did know who they are...*shrugs* Because there’s not really an easy way around the fact that someone seeing you naked IS a form of intimacy in our society. You’re exposed. You’re....all out there for them to critique or have opinions on or form fantasies about, with no way to reciprocate. And that’s a very weird feeling. That crosses well over into uncomfortable when you factor in that there’s no way to opt out of being seen like that by people you KNOW you wouldn’t want to share that level of intimacy with if it was just you and them.

Like, there’s one closeted actor I knew years ago who grew up in a small conservative town, and early on in his career he did a lot of sex-type scenes, like he was one of those actors who is pretty much always in a state of undress on every show he’s on, early on in their career. And he used to say how he never thought twice about it, thought he was totally fine with it....until he went back to his hometown for the holidays for the first time in years, and had all these old classmates and neighbors both his age and older women too, like actual friends of his parents or people who’d known him since he was a kid....and they were fawning over him while he was there and giggling about those scenes and how racy they were and blah blah...but the point was, when he came back to LA after the holidays, he just couldn’t do scenes like that anymore.

Because, like he said, he’d never really thought of himself as someone who made the fact that he was gay a big part of his identity, but it was just too unsettling for him after that. Being aware that the very same people who were a huge part of why he was in the closet, because of all the shit they’d said when he was growing up about how gross and disgusting gay people and gay sex are...here they were, totally okay with and INTO simulated sex scenes that didn’t have an ounce of the intimacy he had in his actual sexual encounters with other guys.

He was like “they’d all call me disgusting and tell me I was going to Hell if they found out what I do with boyfriends in my own home, but what I do on camera, surrounded by dozens of total strangers with a woman I only just met at our audition a week ago and have seen maybe twice since, like....that works for them?” And it just skeeved him out too much. He stopped auditioning for roles like that cold turkey, and I don’t think he’s actually ever done a nude scene since. He couldn’t get over knowing that the older women from his church who’d be the first to gossip about how sinful he was for having a boyfriend were instead gossiping on facebook about how hot he looked in this bedroom scene or whatever.

Anyway. Didn’t mean to go off on this tangent and didn’t realize that last post would bring this up, lmao. And tbh, like, I don’t ENJOY doing nude scenes, but I’ve never been bothered to the point of turning down a paying job. Like, it skeeves me out sometimes, stuff like I mentioned in that last post, coming face to face (so to speak) with the knowledge that someone I deeply dislike on a personal level has seen me that way and enjoyed it, but for me its a level of discomfort where I’m like, yeah, not ideal, but I can live with it. But for a lot of actors, it is a dealbreaker.

And I feel this is something a lot of RPF-er’s don’t consider....like, with a lot of these celebrities, the way you’re talking about them, fantasizing about them, writing stories or sharing pictures about them, especially ones where there aren’t a lot of actual sexualized content available already for you to springboard off of, where you have to like...photoshop heads onto other bodies or make fanart from scratch.....they didn’t say they were cool with it. They didn’t give even the kinda tacit permission that comes from accepting a role where they willingly expose their entire body and self for anyone and everyone to see and to say or think whatever they want as a result. Like, someone accepting a job that casts them as the fantasy hero in a romance where they sweep their lover off their feet and gaze longingly into each other’s eyes and all that stuff....but with their clothes on....Its not exactly the same thing as voluntarily sexualizing themselves top to bottom, playing the part of an actively sexual being onscreen for you to then take in and absorb and do whatever you want with what they chose to put out there.

And thing is....this is still a form of consent, we’re talking about here. No, I’m not saying its the same kind as in a single person-to-person physical interaction. Violating someone’s consent so to speak, in this particular context, I’m not saying its interchangeable with someone being told no by a person and not stopping. I’m just saying....its not nothing either. You’re still taking away another human being’s right to decide whether or not they want you to have the level of intimacy that’s innately tied up in the viewing of a person in their most vulnerable state. Their right to decide whether they want you not just picturing them as a sexual fantasy, and in what ways.

Because like....that’s the other thing about consent. It needs to be given for each individual interaction. It’s not a one-time issued all access pass. An actor consenting to be a part of your sexual fantasies in the role and form of a character from a movie where they have sex with another consenting adult.....is not a blank check saying hey, I’m also totally fine with you using my face and likeness and even name in your fantasies where you put me opposite a minor, or a homophobe, or an abuser.

Like, just speaking for myself, I may be okay with however anyone chooses to view or think or talk about me based on the nude roles I’ve taken or in the context of them, even if it does make me kinda uncomfortable. But I very much would not the fuck be okay with someone sexualizing me opposite someone like, idk, Jared Leto, let’s say, someone that I fucking hate and would never in a million YEARS consent to being vulnerable, let alone intimate with, in any way, shape or form.

I mean, lol, if you’ve been following me for long at all, think about what you know about me as a person, just in terms of like things I’m obviously passionate about, things I talk a lot about etc. Now keeping in mind what you know of me and my personality just as a person who exists beyond any particular fantasy someone might have after seeing me in a role, picture me as an actor. Say I someday ended up in a role in a shared universe franchise like Marvel or DC, where Jared Leto also played a role in that franchise, even if it wasn’t in the same movie, if I never actually consented to be in a movie starring alongside Jared Leto. But by virtue of the big sprawling franchise we’re both in and thus tangentially linked, there’s enough basis for someone who finds him hot and who also finds me hot to go, okay, I wanna ship them together, I want to craft my own sexual fantasy starring them both together, and maybe even write it out, share it online.

Now....knowing me even just on a ‘i follow this person on a social media platform’ level....do you think I’d be remotely comfortable with that? Sure, I’ll probably never find out, you could say, assuming you convince yourself I don’t know how to use google or never google myself or SHOULD never google myself, because....idg that logic tbh but whatever. But you still know. Isn’t it even just a little bit skeevy, building a sexy fantasy around two people when you know or are even just a little sure one of them would not the fuck consent to that?

Like, there’s no law against that, obviously. No one’s gonna come banging on your door and say you can’t do that, that you have Harmed Me in some material way and I’m gonna sue or press charges. But just purely from the standpoint of acknowledging that you may not know me at all, but you know that I exist somewhere on this planet as a living, breathing, thinking entity with my own agency and likes and dislikes....shouldn’t what I want or feel matter? Especially if I do happen to feel very strongly about this, to the point where I’ve taken actionable steps to NOT consent to be in any situation with someone like that where it could remotely be construed as sexual, or even like he’s someone who I could tolerate being around, like his very existence doesn’t gross me out given some of the stuff he’s done. Making deliberate, conscious choices to not take roles opposite him, stuff like that.

Now sure, you don’t know if this is the case, have no way of knowing this about any random actor, that they feel this way or would or would not have this or that opinion about the scenario you’re placing them in, if it were brought to their attention, if you had the opportunity to ask them face to face ‘hey would you be okay with this?’

But that’s the point. You don’t know. But at least maybe focus on actors in their ROLES that they chose to play, where they showed up to work and said okay, here I am to my job pretending to be this character who isn’t me, to bring them to life and make them real for audiences, make them someone they can imagine, or yes, fantasize about. Instead of just assuming for yourself that hey anything and everything is fair game because they took their shirt off in a show once and they’re an actor anyway so what does it matter, this is what they get paid for....

Well. No. Its not what we get paid for. We get paid for the job we sign up to do. That we CHOOSE to do. An actor gets paid to be fodder for sexual fantasies based around their role as a sexy spy in a thriller, maybe, but that’s not and really shouldn’t be treated as interchangeable with acting like they’re getting paid to be fodder for sexual fantasies with anyone and everything in every possible kinky scenario, consent not required, no age limit, anything goes.

I’m not saying its wrong to have sexual fantasies about an actor who’s lodged in your brain in a sexual context because yeah, they’ve done sex scenes before. I’m just saying....there’s a lot of angles that a lot of people don’t put any thought into at all before just doing whatever they want, and all these very important conversations about consent and sexual agency and all that.....they don’t stop being necessary just because they’ve crossed into territory where you don’t want to have these particular conversations, where there’s a status quo you’re comfortable with even if you think a status quo in another area of society needs to be challenged.

Anyway.

Oops, I thought I was done but I kept going. Why am I like this. Okay, now I’m done. Anyway. Just thoughts I have and thus shared, do with them as you will.

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firebirdsdaughter · 7 years

Text

So, Ex-Aid is over...

... It was, a real wild time. Not so sure how I feel about the ending. Here are my thoughts, in no particular order:

(spoilers below)

It all felt rather... Anticlimactic, to be honest. Like, we finished the whole final fight in the same area where we ended the last ep.

And the other three doctors being protective of Emu (shut up I have friendship goggles on 24/7 okay?!) was sweet, but I wanted more. Then again, I always want more friendship.

I was disappointed that Poppy’s return was a little nonchalant, but at least she’s back? Still doesn’t make up for what they put her through.

Taiga missing Nico was cute. I love them together no matter what anyone considers their relationship to be.

Why the hell did Kuroto take so long to Continue at the end? What, was he hanging around in Game Limbo for the perfect dramatic moment? ... I think I just answered my own question.

I don’t think I agree w/ bringing Parad back. Like, okay, I know he’s got a huge fanbase, and normally, I’m a big softy who doesn’t like people dying, but... I guess Parad, especially in the latter half of the show, just pushed too many of my buttons. He was physically violent with Poppy several times and has never apologised for it (nor has it been mentioned!), and I didn’t really feel like proper attention was given to his misdeeds when he started helping CR (and please don’t get me started on that image for the V-Cinema; Poppy A) deserves better, B) why are they standing like that? The people who designed it cannot be clueless as to the implications of that posing!). So, basically, I wold have found it more closing if he stayed dead. Or, if we’re bringing him back, what about the other Bugsters? Graphite, or, I mean, Burgermon? Who wouldn’t wanna see Burgermon again?

Speaking of me going against my usual and saying people should stay dead; Saki. Let the poor woman rest, okay? At the very least, I like that they made it clear Hiiro had accepted her death and moved on--so why can’t they just admit she’s dead? One of the things that Ex-Aid did good was that at least some of Hiiro’s arc was about coming to deal w/ the grief and guilt of losing a loved one and not letting it consume and blind you. Even though it’s unusual circumstances, I’d prefer that that be the message. Yes, Hiiro had a rough time and did some stupid things, but now he’s got support, and he’s moving forward rather than clinging to the past. So let Saki rest. I’ll admit, I liked her more than I thought I was going to, but I find myself content w/ her part in the story being over (unlike say, Nico and Poppy, who were living characters on the show). This is one of the problems w/ Ex-Aid’s writing; it’s a little noncommittal. Masamune erased Saki’s data, so she really should be gone--sure that sucks, but I think it’s healthier for Hiiro and just everyone involved to accept that and move one rather than having the possibility of resurrecting her again. The show should be able to make a decision about that and stick w/ it.

On a lighter note, it’s nice to know Kuroto is never gonna change; so long as they keep him in a box or Poppy’s Bugvisor, he shouldn’t cause too much trouble. And he gets to obnoxious and she’s busy, they can always call Kiriya, who is just plain really good at shutting him down. But speaking of Kuroto? I’ve noticed that attacks that just seem to deHenshin the other Riders always seem to kill him... Maybe that’s a trade off he made for the many lives? He’s not as durable?

So, all in all, I liked Ex-Aid. I think it suffered from, well, any number of things, but one of the roots was something I’ve noticed (from my view) in a couple KR seasons--it wanted to be edgy. Now, I have no issues with edge in theory; I like edge just fine. But I think Ex-Aid went about it rather badly, something I also felt about Gaim. Now, in my opinion, Ex-Aid didn’t fuck it up in that regard quite as bad as Gaim did, but it came close. The noncommittal writing was a little awkward and confusing, and I wasn’t always clear on what was happening--of course, that may have just been because I am daft. I also know a lot of people were happy that there were two women transforming; and, honestly, that started out okay, but they quickly dropped the ball. Somewhere around the halfway mark, treatment of Poppy became quite vile--she was hit, choked, reprogrammed, hit some more... It was never addressed, or mentioned. Nico fared a little better; there was less outright physical violence against her, but the show repetitively pushed her into a victim role where she had no place being. I think there was a brief spark of ‘Oh, we should let the girls transform’ in someone’s mind, but further than that they a) didn’t care and b) ... Really wanted to beat up Poppy? Uh... Sorry. No even semi acceptable reasons for that. That was bullshit and I’m calling it.

Okay, now it sounds like I didn’t like the show, but I really did, I swear. Despite it’s issues, much of it was fun and enjoyable--the actors did an excellent job; it’s not their fault the writing was inconsistent and sometimes just plain awful. They ere working with what they had. Some of the messages were also really good. It did try to get a little too complex nearer to the end, but on the bright side, did not go down to the point of no return like Gaim. I felt like aspects of the ending were a little lack lustre, but nothing is ever perfect. It had a lot of stuff I liked in it. It’s not my favourite of all time, but OOO has a very tight grip on that throne, despite having heavy competition from W and Fourze.

I’m looking forward to Build, which will maybe able to handle some things--like, say, how to treat women--better than Ex-Aid did, but I am more than a little sorry to see Ex-Aid go. I don’t agree with everything it did, but it gave me good entertainment, and for that, I’m grateful.

Au revoir, Ex-Aid. I’ll be watching at least some of your upcoming V-Cinemas, pf that I’m sure. And probably write more fanfic about you. If I can organise my brain, which will be difficult.

(NOTE: Please remember, this all from my personal point of view; my opinion, a critique based on my knowledge and experience. You are not expected to share it, agree with it, or like it. I do personally ask that, even if you think I’m the stupidest, most misguided person you ever didn’t meet, don’t comment just to insult me. The world is so awash with negativity, rn, and I don’t think we should be adding to it; and frankly, I just can’t handle it on the internet when I’m already seeing so much in the outside world. [for context, I live in the United States; it’s not pretty here rn]

If you think I sound negative here, I’m sorry, I don’t mean to. I realise there’s a lot of complaining, and that’s an unfortunate habit of mine, yes. But I’m thinking about stuff so much because I really did like the show and was disappointed and upset when it did things like that. I am not an authority on the show, nor do I know what the writers intended, or what the plan is for further instalments. This is my view, based on what I saw and interpreted. I think what I think, and you’re free to think what you think. There are no contradictions here. <3 )

#Kamen Rider Ex-Aid #Ex-Aid Spoilers #Ex-Aid Finale #au revoir #thoughts #opinions #long post #i'm not as tired as salty as i was last night when i first watched the raw #nothing is perfect #there were a lot of problems #but in the end i liked it #critique

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nicemango-feed · 7 years

Text

A Foot in Both Worlds: How it feels to see the Suffering of Muslim women used to Undermine Feminism in the West

If you're on atheist Twitter, you've probably heard the terrifying and heartbreaking tale of Dina Ali, a young Saudi woman, trying to escape an abusive family...on her way to Australia to seek asylum, but stopped in the Philippines and hauled back to danger by male relatives. I have seen many good people rally behind this worthy cause. I hope creating all this noise will be of some use and we can help her find freedom somehow. At least her family knows there are people looking out for her and want accountability. I can only hope, that one day women in the place I grew up, Saudi Arabia, will have the freedom to move and travel as they please. Please use the hashtag #SaveDinaAli to continue making noise about this, and to keep the pressure up.

A Saudi Arabian woman says she was stopped at a Philippines airport ... and that her life would be in danger if she returned home. http://pic.twitter.com/4BCEwkYpyh

— AJ+ (@ajplus) April 12, 2017

****

What else can we do besides making noise? I know it feels like you're helpless and oceans away. But sometimes campaigning and distributing information to those who simply don't know about the situation, is invaluable... The topic of anything relating to Islam is fraught with baggage in the current global climate. People who were reluctant to touch this subject before, will be even more reluctant now. If we, as liberals, actually want valid critiques to be heard on a wider scale, this is the time to build bridges with the mainstream left - who control most mainstream, credible media. If you care for the rights of Muslim women, this is the time to vocally oppose anti-Muslim sentiment, anti-immigrant/anti-migrant sentiment, so that when and if such women get a chance to leave...they don't continue to suffer. Honestly, in the Islam-critical scene, I don't see enough of that. One thing that makes this situation even worse is people using this instance to dump on, discredit and minimize the struggles of Western feminists as a whole. It's wrong on many levels, but its also just strategically flawed and counterproductive. Granted, many Western feminists may not be aware of the struggles of women in Islamic theocracies - and may indeed view the subject through a Western lens. I myself have been a critic of this time and time again....on specific topics like hijab for example.

From a previous post, you can see the full thing here

There are definitely some *specific* instances where the response of Western feminists can be criticized. And I'm perfectly happy to do that when its relevant - but what I'm seeing a lot of now is a blanket condemnation of Western feminism as a whole.

Sure yeah, no other issues here in the west for women.

(click to enlarge) Not to mention there are western feminists supporting, reporting and creating awareness on this very topic.

Well no, you don't have to dump on Western feminists to highlight the suffering of Saudi women. It would be far more effective if you raised awareness about it on it's own...as it's a very worthy cause. Should not be used as a tool to score cheap points. "To create controversy" ? so there's a desire to purposefully create controversy by dragging others down? Am I misunderstanding something?

Here's just one example of a Western feminist drawing national attention to a problem like FGM. Of course much more can be done, but this will be achieved through bridging the gaps in understanding, not through alienating Western feminists.

Why are Western feminists viewed as privileged? Well, because Western feminists do not live under Sharia, and aren't being held captive by a male guardianship system. What a privilege!

They aren't being stoned to death...so their struggles aren't real. Trivial non-issues.

right, because being liked by everyone is the biggest problem Western feminists have

Who's saying they are comparable? I know I'm not...yet this is a response to me.

Now of course, theres no comparison between the types of struggles faced in the West and those under Islamic theocracy. But who, other than anti-feminist types are equating the two? Women saying "we should be heard too" isn't equating or saying they are comparable. This is another manifestation of the "But what about Islam" nonsense - nothing else can ever be criticized, thanks Islam. :/ What a divisive way to look at things. Identity politics being used by anti-sjw type critics of such things. 1) Western feminist? Bah...you don't have problems. 2) Also, (white) privilege isn't real, and oppression olympics are stupid. < Same people, probably.

Who was equating here? Not me... 'disrespect first-world feminists' :(

Ok maybe not all these types deny the existence of 'privilege', especially when it suits them:

Truly a disgusting and unhelpful way to look at things. Not a single Saudi woman is helped with this attitude.

****

Sure Sharia is THE worst for women...but this is not to say that Western feminism as a whole is frivolous and silly. Don't give me the tired crap about manspreading as if that's what the whole movement is based on. I've heard more anti-feminists obsess over manspreading than feminists. Yes there have been some silly instances, which I have no issue with criticizing....but that is not representative of the whole of Western feminism. By this standard every woman who escapes life in a theocracy and moves to the West...and wants to continue fighting for her rights even in the West, against Western misogynists...is now just engaging in trivial BS. So basically: 'we'll have your back till you leave sharia...after that, you're a joke, your concerns are non-issues.' Free speech is a major topic of concern in our circles, but this 'anti-Western-feminist' argument can be used there too. If it's not sharia-level bad, it's not worth worrying about I guess...total non-issue:

****

I can't describe how awful it is to see this as someone with one foot in both worlds. To see women's suffering being used against women in other contexts. I've been forced to veil in the past, but this doesn't mean I won't care about workplace sexual harassment in a Toronto office. Stop using the pain of women abused under Islamic regimes to undermine feminists in the West. Women's rights and the fight for those rights extends across the globe. Women are not pawns to pit against each other in some stupid imagined rivalry. I have spent roughly half my life in the West and half of it in the East...in a theocracy. I can tell you that even though there isn't morality police here, women's problems are not magically erased. Women are still struggling for equality all over the world, to different degrees obviously (yes, calm down, not equating). If you care for women's rights, and aren't just interested in weaponizing the *idea* of women's rights to express your hatred for Islam...then you should care about those rights everywhere. Islam can be criticized without throwing Western feminists under the bus. Some may seem reluctant to criticize Islam now, and boy...minimizing their struggles will definitely change their minds! Most importantly, this approach is a disservice to people like Dina Ali, if Muslim women's rights are continued to be seen as a cause hijacked by anti-feminists, right-wingers, etc. to undermine progress and women's rights in their own parts of the world...these critiques and calls to action will never fully resonate with the mainstream...they will always be a taboo topic to touch, they will always be tainted by associations with those seen as having illiberal views in a Western context. And this is why ex-muslims in the West like me...and women who continue to exist under sharia, often feel like we are shouting into the wind. How can any of us be heard like this? So...how do we help women like Dina? We talk about these issues...without using her heartbreaking situation to undermine others.

****

Here are some examples of the battles Western feminism is facing today...for those who think it's just non-issues:

Full story here

And all this continues in a climate where alt-right sexism/misogyny is becoming hip, trendy and acceptable in a way it hasn't been in decades...In a climate where a self-professed sexual predator is sitting in the most powerful position in the world. Accusations of sexual assault certainly didn't damage his 'career'.

Full story here

We are in a time, where it's acceptable to say women should be taken out of positions of political power, "we need to establish a fierce and strong patriarchy". This is not some obscure alt-right woman btw, this is someone praised as an ally by our very own leading atheist figure, Dave Rubin.

"women must be removed from political power" (although still of course backs Le Pen) in order to "reestablish a fierce & strong patriarchy". http://pic.twitter.com/veGhSMX0c3

— Nikolashvili (@ViniKako) February 14, 2017

So Rubin goes on a podcast with an alt-right Trump fan called "libtard America" & praises them as an "ally" producing "good stuff". http://pic.twitter.com/P1Mx6CSRhV

— Nikolashvili (@ViniKako) February 1, 2017

****

Somewhere along the way, many crossed over from rightfully criticizing the left for dealing with Islam-related topics poorly, to opposing every liberal left value...feminism, diversity, standing up for minorities, trans rights, etc. How did we get here? :(

------------------------------------------ Thanks to all my Patrons, new and old....you make my work possible. If you enjoy my regressive feminist cuckery, please consider supporting here. from Nice Mangos http://ift.tt/2pvcgd6 via IFTTT

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elizabethrobertajones · 6 years

Note

I'm not saying you agree with that TLJ article since you tagged it 'mh', but I'm very worried but this latest trend 'Your opinion is wrong because of internalized ___'. Some movies just suck? Like, I hated Ghostbusters 2 because it was bad. I was perfectly okay with having four women as main characters, but that can't be your whole idea for a movie.

I do think that article is interesting, and trying to describe what is basically a wider cultural phenomenon. I’m sure on case by case basis you could rarely boil it down to just a few specific factors and “diagnose” someone except for really obvious lifelong character types who would be in the most obvious demographic.

Star Wars *already* got a bunch of sexist and racist backlash before TFA, so it’s already in the bracket of movies which got thrown together as the collection of SJWs are ruining our childhood movies like Mad Max, Ghostbusters, etc, so it’s also definitely not like this is a wild stab in the dark that it has pre-existing tension, although in this case the reaction is still really split. But I can see why it’s easy to examine it this way and analyse where it might make people uncomfortable, and wonder to what degree people are prepared to let go of Leading White Man formula for mega blockbusters.

Something like Wonder Woman, people know what they’re getting into when they see it in the sense that the franchise is completely built around there being a female character in the lead role. So that stands quite alone. And it’s not like there haven’t been action movies with female leads in the past either, but the re-casting in the case of Ghostbusters, or just development of interesting female characters who aren’t beholden to a cookie cutter template/romance arc within a supposedly male-dominated franchise (Furiosa, especially) and changing up old franchises to have more diverse cast (Star Wars) or just completely flip the “male is the default” idea like Ghostbusters and Oceans 8, are deliberately challenging and in some cases - the last 2 especially - are pretty much thumbing the nose to the idea of all-male casts being unremarkable and default. Whether the movies are *good* or not (I thought Ghostbusters was about on the level of, say, a Ghostbusters movie for quality and humour, so okay basically :P) they’re culturally significant at a time when it seems both bizarre and horrifically slow and backwards that we *still* don’t have *even just getting male and female representation right, never mind race and sexuality and disability representation* (I mean for that last point - in some ways these films are already going to be regressive by the time other progressive steps are made, for example Charlize Theron wearing a green screen glove to delete her arm, instead of just hiring an actress with half an arm which is the immediately less-expensive and fiddly route to get the aesthetic…)

But idk, it’s not even like Star Wars was either perfect or extremely progressive, it just managed *not* to have 2-3 white male leads + some other people in the background, and to allow the non white male people to have such a stake in the story they could mess up and make decisions that affected the fate of the galaxy - often negatively, as this is the ESB slot of the trilogy aka where everything is supposed to go in the toilet. There was a lot they could have done better and I’m still annoyed that Maz and Phasma both got pitifully tiny roles but were basically included despite the set up of the movie being extremely restrictive to much exploration and with probably the longest time limit they thought they could allow themselves and still sound like there were any tension in the chase…

I think it’s definitely always worth exploring whether social issues are having an impact on the reception of a film, though, because it’s a way of addressing the issues in our society, which we *know* exist, and when a film is openly critical of our society, and then people are critical back at it, guessing there may be a nervous backlash from people it made uncomfortable for too-close-to-home reasons makes sense. The critique offered by Kylo Ren to edgy white masculinity is really interesting, and I think it’s probably not hard to imagine SOME people especially who fit the profile are reacting against him, or glorifying him anyway unironically while disliking large amounts of the rest of the movie.

One of the points that article made as well was that other generic or bad films do much better with audience reaction - in fact some truly terrible films do really well as they’re marketed to a niche audience, and that audience gobbles them up and we get the inverse, of critically panned but audience ratings pretty high.

I mean, I’m assuming if you follow me you’re a Supernatural fan and so we’re all here to gobble up the melodramatic pretty boys :P

So, idk, I think in some ways the picking apart of the film and emphasising its flaws is happening in a strange social climate, where in some ways the discomfort about the film not catering with the most “easy” empathy of a white male main character & with flawed but interesting characters in the other roles particularly prone to being criticised in society for existing anyway and that the SW revival has already had one film threatened boycott over because of Finn being a black stormtrooper on his reveal, and I doubt that feeling has just magically gone away… There comes a point where I wonder how much is basically film review concern trolling when it comes to criticising his and Rose’s arc, or the film in general.

And how much of the film’s real flaws, plotholes etc if they existed in an easier version of the film with all 4 Chrises in the major roles would take months or years to get properly dissected by the internet while it’s basically as soon as you go back online after the movie someone’s complaining about why Canto Bight even existed.

I mean my “Hm” was “this is interesting and I think it definitely could apply to the wider cultural reaction to the movies” while obviously on a personal level if people have certain standards for films (my dad hates basically *everything* so I don’t think his reaction to TFA was categorically racist or sexist, just that he would be inclined to think pretty much anything JJ Abrams makes is garbage and whoops I never should have naively made him watch the first episode of Fringe with me :P) then if any of these movies are things you can tell would have rubbed you up the wrong way anyway, e.g. you didn’t like the original Ghostbusters that much/have found it far cringey-er on adult rewatches etc then you are absolutely allowed to have a reaction to it on a personal level which is not a sign of the sickness of our society :P

But I think even if you don’t like the new SW film, it’s worth putting aside your critiques of it for a moment to think about this article and the wider reaction - not to make you guilted into enjoying the film, but because it’s worth at least pondering the wider social issues the film’s already definitely caught up in since like, before TFA came out, so we can’t deny that there’s at least some portion of the audience, whether the loud but small group of assholes who utterly invisibly boycotted TFA, or the wider percentage of the population who’ll be consciously or unconsciously turned off by the cast and the power given to their characters in the story, and the possibly even wider percentage who may still struggle to empathise with female characters because Hollywood has so systematically underrepresented like, what can alternately be the literal largest demographic on the planet, and presented just plain old cis women as characters whose inner lives are valuable and decisions should be respected.

I mean since I came out the movie I’ve been swinging back and forth on “should Holdo have just told Poe her plan or was the point that this man of a much lower station is getting all up in her business demanding to know and questioning her, and I assume that was intentional so I should agree with Holdo but would this have looked just as bad if a male admiral showed up doing the same thing and they accidentally undermine her by it being a bad decision in general, or is the point that if it had been a male admiral Poe would have shut up and not let an insurrection, but I mean it’s *Poe* and I love him and I totally understand and he was made out to be more sympathetic until *after* the twist so did they WANT us to be critical of Holdo or am I just falling into a trap of not giving female characters the same room to fuck up as male characters -” and that’s BEFORE I get onto the internet and read this debate for weeks, just my confusion about this arc and what it was saying and if it was meant to say one thing or the other or if it’s a bit of bad writing (but not something so bad it would ruin the film to the point of only 50% enthusiasm like Rotten Tomatoes is giving it - like, 93% or something :P) or if it’s doing exactly what it’s supposed to by making my brain cogs go and making me feel I need to write like, a dozen female admiralty into things to allow Holdo a cultural sisterhood of good bad and ugly admirals to be her own person in instead of the only female admiral to ever stick in my head like this :P So idk.

Hm. Basically.

#Asks #star wars #star wars spoilers

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