#asoiaf characterization

[horizon-verizon]

Maybe this Will Put Things into Perspective about Rhaenyra & Cersei's Kids Being Bastards or Not...

Feudalism is an early period or a economic phase of a millennia-managed con against anyone who isn't a noble man, and most men are the active conmen.

Neither set of kids were ever declared bastards. Nor were they ever or "acknowledged" as bastards, because noblemen "acknowledge" a child they father onto another woman. noblewomen, in theory, can, but if their having had sex premaritally/extramaritally isn't already known outside of the household they do not. Because to do without it already being known (like with Alys Turnberry) would publicly ruin her prospects for marriage in the future, ruin her reputation, and likely muddy the family's as well.

Robert probably would have removed those kids from the line of succession had he known (and he didn't) if not outight remove them from the mortal coil. But instead, he got gutted. Therefore, Cersei's kids are not officially or "legally" bastards. That prior declaration is what is required to have them "legally" known as bastards.

Bastardry has always been more of a legal question in its nature than a biological fact of nature. Of course, we the audience and most of ther know that Rhaenyra's kids aren't Laenor's biologically; Ned correctly deduced that Cersei's weren't Robert's biologically. However, he was never able to get his information to matter "legally", or to get it to Robert to make a decision on. Whereas Laenor, Corlys, Viserys all knew and decided to maintain the boys as their heirs. And they made this decision based on the lack of knowledge the public has/what they can control. Which is often what any noble does; once again, GRRM has explicitly stated that the lords of Westeros often take advantage to twist "laws" (customs) according to the circumstances around them & their own desires, and it's is not exclusive to bastards already "acknowledged".

The purpose of marriage as an institution is entirely for the lord/nobleman's benefit. It is an institution that was created and developed entirely for a man's political interests (a father's, a brother's, a husband's, a son's, etc.). And it was made to consolidate/monopolize the noble woman's (or really any woman) body and reproductive labor so as to produce living products to pass on the resources/titles mainly the lord and his ancestors have aggregated. To try to make sure those resources are passed to the people the lord wants passed own to, the sexual purity culture imposed on women and girls works to construct shame & suppress female extramarital and premarital sexual activity, which is an aspect of her overall agency. Her agency is re-confined/socially reduced to her sexual activity because she has no other primary function nor legal privileges aside form being a wife, mother, daughter, virgin, etc. Or sometimes the protectoress of her husband's/son's assets: the castle at times of war/siege when the lord is not present; director of his household's activities and servants by being its head overseer of accounts. Therefore, the lord is literally claiming his wife as his effective property through her womb & this is often why when we see women like Daena sleeping with a man not her husband, it is an act of reinforcing her authority or political agency in spite of how she was raised to see her own body.

Think about it: why do we not have a world or society (fictional or not) where even though the wife births a child not her husband's the husband's do not willfully or are "legally" compelled to adopt that child as their own, effectively de-fathering the biological father? Because men want to feel as if they have as close to total ownership over female companionship and labor so they consolidate power to themselves and not to women. Having all these designations of gender and "bastardry" that everyone are compelled to follow makes that easier without expending energy or sharing power. Medieval customs put the social-legal identification of "bastard" from the institution of marriage, its compulsions on women, and their reproductive labor/bodies/uteruses being claimed by the men who are "licensed" to own them. Which is why when we say that neither Cersei's nor Rhaenyra's kids are "bastards" it is true, because the purpose of bastardry is to attempt to reclaim the product of reproductive labor and Viserys/Corlys/Laenor/Robert have already done that. To protest about how Robert didn't know about his kids not being his kids is really to protest how he didn't not get the products of Cersei's reproductive labor in the usual male-prioritized business of objectifying female labor that is intrinsic in this feudal society. Whereas Viserys/Laenor/Corlys accepted the products of Rhaenyra's reproductive labor.

All this is also why I really don't care for the impassioned argument of these women were being "unfair" to the system (Rhaenyra) or to their husbands, fathers etc. (Cersei) or them being "liars" or "destructive". Feudalism is itself an objectifying, unfair, unequal system. It is designed to benefit men and mainly men inherently, and directly at the expense of women who risk death itself while a man fathering any sort of kid never risks death. Men lie and destroy the women who birth their children, manage their household, protect their castle, rear their children....and it is all "licensed" and justified under the constructed institutions of marriage, oath-making, knighthood and principles of chastity, virginity, the different sub-meanings of "honor" for men vs women, etc. Men are themselves already objectifying or making an exclusive economic use of their female counterparts as well as going back on their vows (a deal that is still in feudal marriages, even for men) through their socially-allowed extramarital and premarital affairs producing bastards.

#westerosi bastards #cersei lannister #rhaenyra targaryen #the velaryon boys #the lannisters #the targaryens #westerosi feudalism #fedualism #asoiaf characterization #jacaerys velaryon #joffrey velaryon #lucerys velaryon #joffrey baratheon #tommen baratheon #myrcella baratheon #westerosi society

[thebluelemontree]

In your opinion, what kind of Lord of the Eyrie and Warden of the East would Harrold Hardyng be?

As a high lord, Harry would probably be as good as the counsel he receives and the influence he is under. I don't think he would care all that much about the how and why behind the governance of the region, so as long as he was its star. On one hand, he's very much what the conservative Vale lords are attracted to. He's not only a handsome young knight in his prime but he is also said to look like Jon Arryn in his youth. By contrast, Robert Arryn looks nothing like his father, is small and sickly, and has a huge image problem with his infantile tendencies. Harry is considered an ideal specimen for the traditional culture and continuing the Arryn line into the future. At least for appearance's sake. Even with his flaws, I can see him maintaining a high degree of popularity with his vassals. On the other hand, one of the things we see other characters note about him is that he's easily swayed, willful when it comes to the next shiny new thing, and will gladly accept honors he didn't earn. When Littlefinger tipped his hand at the Lord's Declarant meeting that he was interested in Harry coming to live at the Eyrie, Yohn Royce saw Littlefinger's intent to gain influence over the heir to the Vale. Royce promptly returned to Runestone and held a tourney for squires to earn their knighthood. Myranda Royce tells Alayne that Harry was meant to win, so he did. It was rigged. The thing is, Harry's tourney skills are said to be unimpressive and quite lacking, making it unlikely he could have earned the knighthood himself regardless. Yohn ensuring he got to knight Harry himself was supposed to strengthen their bond, so when he warned Harry to resist any moves Littlefinger might make toward him that sage advice would hopefully stick.

This says a lot about the kind of person Harry is. If he is totally unaware by the age of 18/19 that people are battling for influence over him as the heir, then he is an idiot. If he is aware but is content to be flattered and swayed by whoever is offering him something desirable, then he is alarmingly immature, self-centered, and thoughtless of the consequences of freely handing out the keys to power. If he is aware that the tourney was rigged for him and he did not actually earn the title ser, but accepted it anyway as if he deserved it, that's a lack of integrity someone like Littlefinger can easily exploit. Despite that effort on Yohn's part, once the invitations for the TotWK went out, Harry insisted on going because all his peers were going to be there and he didn't want to be left out. Yohn was said to have no choice but to let him go or else "a rift would come between them." It implies there was a tense and frustrating exchange about this issue, with Yohn spelling out to Harry that this is a ploy designed to lure Harry in (it totally is) and that it is strongly ill-advised to attend. But Harry throws all caution to the wind because "I don't care that the party is being held in a pit of vipers. All the cool kids are going, and you're not my real dad." :/ Good lord, does he make this easy for Littlefinger or what? So much for that knighting the little punk. Oh, yeah, and there will be a ton of bastards littering the countryside that will need to be provided for. Harry isn't very discreet. That's not anything too out of the ordinary for some lords, but I could see a few scandals that would need damage control if the paramour was of noble birth. Politics is personal. Even though most noblewomen are raised to expect and forgive infidelity, this still might cause a ton of marital discord or even bad blood between the Lady of the Eyrie and the baby mama's house. He does seem to love and care for his bastard children, so fatherhood and family life at home might be a point that grounds him a bit more if we're being charitable. The impression we're given strongly suggests he will continue to chase tail around. So in order to be a decent leader, I think Harry needs a team around him that knows how to manage his weaknesses and how to put his star image to good PR use. To be fair, he's still very young, and maybe with time, maturity, and good influence he could grow to be better than what we're seeing right now. He needs a Jon Arryn to wrangle his Robert Baratheon, albeit even Jon Arryn's capabilities were limited. Unfortunately, the person who is successfully jockeying for influence is Littlefinger, who we know just wants to use Harry until he outlives his usefulness; however, I don't think Harry is long for this world anyway.

#harrold hardyng #harry the heir #littlefinger #petyr baelish #yohn royce #asoiaf characterization #asoiaf speculation

[bohemian-nights]

People really are missing the point of a character like Nettles. Being the a non-Valyrian dragonrider is what makes her different(in every positive definition of that word) and helps to serve a larger purpose in this story.

Valyrian blood is not special. It’s not needed to do great things. No one is special because of what family they happen to be born into.

A non-Valyrian Nettles shows that we are more than the circumstances which we are born into. Our birth, our names, and our very blood does not define us. Our actions are what do. We can overcome so much and rise to become absolutely extraordinary with a little bit of determination, patience, and a dash of help along the way. Nettles exemplifies that to the fullest extent.

She's more than a Black Valryian. She doesn’t have to be Valyrian. She shouldn’t have to be Valyrian.

She’s a survivor. She’s a final girl. She’s a Black low-born girl likely without a drop of dragons blood that tames a wild dragon with patience that killed countless others who had dragons blood. She survived the Dance where others high and low alike fell and perished to become a firewitch to the Burned Men.

Her legacy is immortalized in the history books(and by the Burned Men cause they still worship her) as one of the last(if not the last) dragonrider(s) before Dany all without having any known Valyrian ancestry.

#nettles doesn’t need Valyrian blood to be great #nettles #hotd #hotd spoilers #nettles asoiaf #nettles f&b #hotd fandom critical #bncommentary #hotd commentary #nettles characterization #🐑🐉 #house of the dragon #netty #she’s not daemons kid guys #the dates don’t align for that but keep trying it #surprise surprise most of the ones cheering this crap on aren’t black themselves 🤦🏽‍♀️ #I see what’s happening here which is ironic because any other time she isn’t Black #but now she is because you can use that #how does having valyrian blood benefit nettles at all #how does it add to the story GRRM is trying to tell #she can be valyrian but it shouldn’t be requirement #that thinking is backwards #what did tyrion say? never forget who you are wear it proudly #nettles likely isn’t valyrian let’s be proud of her claiming a dragon without dragons blood #nettles is great because she’s nettles #no dragon blood required and I love that 🙌🏽

[fromtheseventhhell]

"Sansa = Ned 2.0 and Arya = Catelyn 2.0" is one of those takes where you can just tell people are more attached to the aesthetic than anything. "The Stark girls are most like the parent they look least like" sounds good on paper and people run with the idea, regardless of how it actually fits into the story. A majority of the justification relies on misinterpreting all of their characters + a healthy dose of fanon. What gets me is that this is the same fandom that insists that Lyanna, only compared to Arya in the text, is equal parts Arya and Sansa but Ned and Catelyn, two fully fleshed-out and complex characters, have to be more like one girl or the other? There's just nothing in the story to justify being so adamant about these comparisons. Arya and Sansa have parallels with both of their parents but at the end of the day, they are unique characters with their own stories. I'll never understand why people want to flatten these complex characters down to their most basic tropes and fit them into restrictive boxes just for a "poetical~" comparison.

#arya stark #sansa stark #catelyn stark #ned stark #house stark #asoiaf #BORING YAWNING SLOPPY #notice how these takes never come with actual evidence from the books to make direct comparisons from the text? #/ned is a gentle quiet poitican/ and he physically attacks someone + constantly shows his frustration and voicing his opinions #our first introduction to him is him executing a man and we know he's done so several times that year #he says that his toddler son needs to grow up and stop being afraid of a giant wolf cause /winter is coming/ and Northern life is hard 😭 #/Cat is a feral wild woman/ and her chapters are full of her holding her tongue and trying to mediate situations #people literally switch their characterizations cause the second a woman shows emotion she's /feral/ #and a man can be the most wild unhinged character ever and still be /kind/ and /gentle/ #like yeah fanon sansa is fanon ned 2.0 and fanon arya is fanon cat 2.0 but their actual characters are more complex then that #the only valid /2.0/ comparison is between Lyanna and Arya but somehow she gets split between Arya and Sansa 🥴 #my hourly frustration at this fandom not caring about the story and only being here for /the vibes~/ #like Ned hates Tourneys and protests one as a waste of resources while Sansa is planning a Tourney and using resources while winter #is arriving and smallfolk are going hungry...but she's Ned 2.0? Where? How? Huh? #And yeah Ned deals with politics in KL but that's relatively a small aspect of his character #and even him constantly speaking his mind and challenging Robert directly is the exact opposite of Sansa's approach 😭 #/courtesy is a Lady's armor/ vs. /I'm gonna tell Robert he's an idiot right to his face/ oh yeah totes the same #Arya is the character following his advice and guidance for a reason just saying #like if Sansa was doing the same I could see it but she..isn't? Her approach is much closer to Catelyn's than Ned's #I don't understand why people have all of the sudden decided that the Sansa/Cat parallels are shallow when they're #very similar characters and Sansa's current plot actually revolves around that fact #obviously they're not exactly alike but no two characters are or even meant to be...their comparisons are still very valid #tired of being expected to accept an idea just because enough people repeat it

[ceriseo]

i dont think otto and daemon had an actual serious relationship but i do think that as a part of daemon's pyschosexual fixation on his brother he drunkenly hit on otto and when otto reacted homophobically daemon got offended because?? wym you dont want to fuck me im literally daemon targaryen?? and otto was like. im not a filthy degenerate (same tone as 'or you, her childhood companion'). and daemon was like. clearly. whatever loser im too cool and hot for you and then went to his chambers and stared at the wall for twenty hours. the next day he met mysaria.

#otto hightower #daemon targaryen #hotd #asoiaf #ottomon #is that their ship name? lowkey fire… #im actually soooo excited for lady misery in season 2 i hope she gets an actual characterization and isnt just a plot device

[tragedy-peanut-gallery]

Mama wolf and the pups having one last night in the Godswood, before Ned goes off to the Vale

#we may be putting out more stark content for the next few weeks lads- #also mama Lyarra has literally No characterization- so imma give her one 💖 #eddard stark #lyarra stark #lyanna stark #benjen stark #asoiaf fanart

[15-lizards]

Just for fun: maybe a show of how both Aemma Arryn and Alicent Hightower would affect the court fashion by being from the Vale and Reach, respectably?

Oooh that sounds fun let’s do it!!

I believe in Burgundian dresses in the Vale supremacy. It just fits the vibe also fur!!! Very important no? Just overall a style that fits that elegant upper class vibe of the Eyrie before the dance, which Aemma grew up in. Big headdresses are the staple of every outfit, especially the hennin cone with a gauzy veil draped around. A very gentle, almost Virginia kind of fashion that Aemma grows up wearing and brings to Kings Landing when she becomes queen

After a while in kings landing, this Eyrie fashion has adapted to the city. The basic cut of the gown is still the same, but seems to be a bit more complex and layered and sluttier. Ostentatious rich women take the idea of that elegant Eyrie fashion and just gild and glitz the shit out of it. OR a woman might downplay the gown and dress simply and just really heighten the look and size of the headdress, making it increasingly impractical (think the mid 1700s in France).

During Alicents early reign, she hasn’t garnered any influence or personal style yet and she’s still a young girl trying her best to get into the good graces of her old fart husband so she probably still resembles Aemma in her clothing. Modest and gentle without all of the grandiosity of the other women of kings landing, because of both the faith at Oldtown and her need to blend in as best she can. Eventually people start following in her footsteps, and more subdued and muted styles become popular, with a natural waist and bust coming back, as well as soft natural coloring

Once Alicent is firmly established, I think she starts to dress for piousness. Long sleeves that don’t billow out, skirts that cover everything and more, natural outline of the body, modest headdresses. And once the war begins this naturally starts to take hold throughout the city, as noblewomen go into mourning and also start to realize the excess they used to have cannot be afforded anymore.

#asoiaf #asoiaf hair and clothing #I know this kinda directly contradicts my fashion druring the dance ideas but #take it up with my lawyer #also yes I’m using show Alicent characterization here #you can also take that up with my lawyer

[gendrie]

the insistence that arya be removed from the nobility is dumb as shit lol she is a stark of winterfell and a crucial component of arya's arc is that she finds herself, more than once, forced into servitude that removes her from the influence her noble birth afforded her. both as a POW at harrenhal and as an apprentice at the house of black & white. arya is expected to submit to being powerless, impartial, humble, obedient and she cannot do it because arya's identity is intertwined with her status as a highborn. that cant ever be taken away. nor would arya give it up. bc she wants to have a say. she wants to take responsibility. she wants to belong. she wants to be a part of a community.

#its crazy how basic characterization and storytelling manages to elude this fandom lol #asoiaf nonsense

[razmerry]

#razpost #dc #dc comics #jason todd #dick grayson #jason #asoiaf #i was rereading brothers in blood for some classic mid-2000s comic insanity (of which it has in delightful spades) #but came away very touched by the jason characterization #sympathetic but also fully out of his mind. and silly. i like that very much #and the whole thing made me think damn... he just wants to hang out with his big bro. not his fault if he can only do it thru murder #comic panel is from nightwing (1996) 121 #quote is from a dance with dragons (the king's prize)

[thevelaryons]

Corlys was willing to start a war for one person and one person only, and that is Laenor:

Reports had reached the court that Corlys Velaryon was massing ships and men on Driftmark to “defend the rights” of his son, Laenor.

Corlys wanted vengeance for one person and one person only, and that is Laenor:

The Sea Snake offered a reward of ten thousand golden dragons for any man who could lead him to Ser Qarl Correy, or deliver the killer to a father’s vengeance.

Corlys originally let go of his pride for the sake of one person and one person only, and that is Laenor:

Whatever the truth of these tales, it was soon announced that the princess was with child. Born in the waning days of 114 AC, the boy was a large, strapping lad, with brown hair, brown eyes, and a pug nose. (Ser Laenor had the aquiline nose, silver-white hair, and purple eyes that bespoke his Valyrian blood.) Laenor’s wish to name the child Joffrey was overruled by his father, Lord Corlys. Instead the child was given a traditional Velaryon name: Jacaerys (friends and brothers would call him Jace). [...] In 117 AC, on Dragonstone, Princess Rhaenyra bore yet another son. Ser Laenor was at last permitted to name a child after his fallen friend, Ser Joffrey Lonmouth.

#valyrianscrolls #asoiaf #corlys velaryon #laenor velaryon #corlys & laenor #meta #so tired of people dismissing their relationship just because that shitty adaptation screwed up their characterization 🙄

[rhaenin-time]

The changes the writers made to Alicent, Aemond, and Aegon have too many modern connotations and it disturbs me that so many people find those connotations "sympathetic."

#and my GAWD do their fans get angry when you point out those very glaring and intentional connotations #no it's not insensitive to point out that Aemond is a shoot shooter when his main trait is aggrieved entitlement #No it's not insensitive to point out that Alicent is a Woman for Trump and a White Woman™ when that's how she was intentionally written #Do I think that it's overly simplistic writing? Yes. But that doesn't change the fact that that's how the story is written #asoiaf #hotd #hotd critical #team black #asoiaf fandom #fire and blood #anti team green #hotd sexism #I will defend people who argue that Cole is not an incel though. He's not. He's actually something worse #And his characterization is actually better rooted in the European Medieval time period than the others - to an extent

[horizon-verizon]

Master Post of Anti-Criston Cole-ism

He was Never Raped or SA-ed

A) [HotD] HotD's Episode 4, from the Actor and Writers

i)

🔗LINK to Entertainment Weekly Article that Describes Frankel & Writers Making this Scene Consensual Sex Scenes where Criston "Chooses" to Forget his Vows

Neither of these reveal that either the actor nor the writers or directors wrote the sex scene to be something Criston was afraid of or didn't want. The way it's talked about, with people "discovering" each other and themselves shows consent and enjoyment. Frankel wanted to play out his fear of Criston's own desire to break his own vows and facing the guilt of that; Rhaenyra never pressured him into anything.

REMINDER: He's still not "commonborn" nor Dornish, since:

he has a last name, which peasants don't have AND his father/house is House Cole, stewards of the Dondarrions...the Tyrells at one point were stewards to House Gardner in the Reach & they were still nobles of that time, stewards don't mean full fledged "servants"

Blackhaven is in the Stormland part of the Dornish Marches, not the Dornish part of the Dornish Marches...Samwell Tarly's family's castle is in the foothill of a part of the Dornish Marches, ....Barristan Selmy's family's castle, Harvest Hill, is based in the Dornish Marches in Stormlander territory, so is Barristan Selmy Dornish? Cole is a Stormlander!

Marchers hate Dornish people more than other nonDornish Westerosi do...Criston said his dad was a steward of the nonDornish Dondarrions...HotD has never shown us whether either of his parents are Dornish by origin so what proof do we have he is Dornish even in the show?!!! And we see no discrimination (hint or overt) the court has against Cole...

lets' say that Cole was Dornish...the Velaryons are black and realisitically, even rich Black people do not manage to avoid subtle racial discrimination (there's a black woman on TikTok from a wealthy family that talks about it, idk her name)...so if Criston faces racism and the Velaryons don't either the writers are incompetent or don't know racism

Not only is this a misreading of what the Dornish Marches are on the HotD writers'/producers' part, it's a misreading or understanding of race either in medieval times or the modern day, AND people have tried to use a supposed racial disparity b/t Rhaenyra (Valyrian-Targ princess) to argue that Cole (the racially-inferior) felt racial pressure as well to comply to sleep with her and avoid censure or punishment if she blabs...as if his race would give him the right to sleep with a teen girl who some have argued was also very drunk here-- even if Criston was Dornish!

ii) [HotD] HotD's Episode 4, from the actual Episode

People don't know what SA or rape actually looks like...can we just, please?...

B) "If the Roles were Reversed" [HotD AND the Original Story]

i)

Rhaenyra didn't "make" him do anything b/c she doesn't have the ability to take on that new level of risk. So much protest using the "if the genders were reversed", and yet no acknowledgment or breakdown of what their respective unique positions are.

A male heir =/= a female heir in terms of power and privilege, gender really matters even here, as every source on the matter--whether HotD or the original story--has made every single minute to point out and emphasize...the only reason we are even talking about the Dance is that it was a group of people arguing that no woman should go before a man inn any line of succession which comes from the belief that women are inherently insufficient military leaders. And female chastity is a whole concept in of itself where the woman/girl must be sexually "pure" as to ensure that a man's and his family's lineage remains "proven" to be inherited by someone blood-connected to them. To preserve that wealth and privilege. etc., within that family. Female chastity - female "obedience" or submission to male supremacy.

Women could never be knights so they can never be Kingsguard.

Brienne is not a knight...yet[?], and she exists YEARS after the Dance; even if there were female monarchs before, check out real history for how medieval people regarded female rulers if they didn't happen to be very "good" ones...I mean just check out Juana I of Castile!

We can never equalize these situations in matter of gender because this society structures on the inequality of its genders.

A World of Ice and Fire shows us glaring examples of women over men being brutally sidelined or physically attacked to make way for male leaders or candidates (Shiera Blackwood, Agnes Blackwood, that unnamed Lannister woman who had to marry a non-Lannister man so he could take her name just so he could lead the Lannister house instead of her, Argella Durrandon, Marla Sunderland); Fire and Blood has a bunch of girls raped, mutilated, SA-ed or sexually manipulated so the men can inch their way towards power or to just feel in control (Cassandra Baratheon, Lucinda Penrose, those Tumbleton 8-year-olds, the septas, etc.).

Making as if sexual violence against men or just general violence against men is treated the same, as frequent, and socially justified as violence against women and girls both in real life and in the ASoIaF/HotD/GoT universes is disingenuous. As long as we live in a society where enough people think a woman's body is never totally her own, it never will be.

ii) Let's play with this "Reversal" Anyway:

a) We already see Rhaenyra-Criston in the version of her approaching him...

In F&B, we already have one verison of what happened b/t them in Mushroom telling us of a situation of Rhaenyra approaching Criston and Criston denying her, with no material consequences for him...and he freely decides to hate and try to destroy her anyway ("A Question of Succession"):

Even IF Rhaenyra approached Criston and in this way, she does not go to Viserys to ruin Cole or do anything else to him. She sleeps with Harwin instead. And why doesn't she go to Viserys to fuck Criston's life up? Bc he has been her trusted guard for ages, but also because of what I say below in section b) below and i) above.

Reminder, Viserys in both the show and book forces Rhaenyra to marry Laenor, and book!her explicitly is rumored to say she wanted Daemon. She faces censure or punishment, not Cole.

Show!Rhaenyra has also been "friends"/friendly with Cole for years; what reason do we have to expect or fear that she'd complain to Viserys? How much does Criston really expect Rhaenyra does, since he's the said friend in her "confidence"?

b) Occam's razor

Since women cannot be Kingsguard in Westeros, the female-Cole would either be a lower-ranked noble woman or she would be like Jonquil Darke, the female sworn-shield of Alysanne Targaryen (who still wasn't part of the Kingsguard). JD was also a Darkling bastard.

It's so very unlikely that even if female-Cole become the guard to young/older male-Rhaenyra.

That's inconceivable to these people. Why would the probably already-sword trained male-Rhaenyra need a personal female-guardsman when they'd have an actual Kingsguard knight (still all male) as the male-Rhaenyra's guard before a female warrior is ever considered? This is the mindest of these royals and nobles, btw.

And again, Jonquil was the protector of Alysanne, not Jaehaerys. But Jaehaerys did use Jonquil to stop Saera from running away, and this proves that Jonquil's "final boss" is and always has been Jaehaerys, aka, the Monarch, not the person she was protecting. If a male-Rhaenyra approached a female-Cole (but not a bastard) who was a sort of Jonquil Darke person, even with that female-Cole being well-versed in swordsmanship or anything physical to defend herself, the social consequences of that woman sleeping with a royal man while not being married to him is still as real and worse for her than for him. She'd be less willing to fully engage with him and dread the consequences of his growing angry with her.

What if female-Cole was just a regular noblewoman, either ranked high from a prestigious family/Great House (Starks, Martell, Hightowers, Lannisters, Manderlys] or from a lower ranked or not-as-prestigious and influential family (Tarlys, Selmys, Boltons, Wyls)? And male-Rhaenyra took a liking to female-Cole but didn't want to or expect to marry them?

Because female-Cole is a female noble and had grown up knowing that women & girls are socially condemned for actually practicing sexual autonomy, they'd be much more cautious and vulnerable to censure in either scenario:

If the female-Cole was from a more prestigious or "Great" House, male-Rhaenyra wouldn't as likely approach them unless they thought they'd be good for marriage because that house is powerful and important enough to put some pressure on them IF they ever found out. An affair is very possible, and depending on female-Cole's age and assessment of her own abilities and worth growing up female, we don't know whether they'd be willing to pursue a true consensual affair with male-Rhaenyra without there being a hope or guarantee for marriage. Because, like Lysa Tully, they still run the risk of tainting their family/house' image and face punishment or abuse from their own family if such affairs were made public. (If I have to explain Lysa Tully to people, they either forgot what happens b/t her & Petar Baelish or never read the bks, and if the latter they should not speak on anything to do with any character in things like this that requires lore knowledge AND some objectivity. Or they don't see what happened to her as "a big deal"...) Still, there is room for her to not want the attention because women are not a monolith of the exact same personalities or circumstances for us to believe every single woman would go for a real affair regardless of there being a desire or expectation of marriage. Thus what I describe below for lower ranked women/girls still counts. If anything, the stakes can be said to be higher because her family's prestige or power is so high that they could also take the path of blaming her. Therefore, a woman/girl of this group could still feel cornered.

If female-Cole came from a lower/less prestigious house, male-Rhaenyra is more interested & likelier of pursuing an affair or making female-Cole their paramour/mistress. Same situation, but the girl has even less reason to believe that there would be a marriage bc her house' rank/prestige/powers are so low for a possible marriage to the future King. She'd have to be either be mentally incapacitated (Priscella Hogg), under another immense pressure, or very young to believe that. So in this case, there is a stronger likelihood that if she sleeps with male-Rhaenyra, it's because she was cornered or felt she couldn't avoid him and had no assurances to avoid him later on. Or that he'd later feel slighted and begin rumors of her in court and her reputation gets ruined either way.

in either case, because male-Rhaenyra is a man while female-Cole isn't and men are far more likely to use physical force to intimidate or push a woman down then the reverse; men on average feel entitled to women's bodies' and attention, what more a royal prince like Aegon & Aemond? (I didn't use these examples by accident: that 12 yr old "paramour" Septon Eustace informs us and Alys Rivers)

And male-Rhaenyra would be the heir, still. There would be no doubt against male-Rhaenyra because she'd be male, male leaders are credited their deserving to rule armies by being male. His path to ascension is clearer than what real-Rhaenyra currently and will have to face. Male-Rhaenyra has no reason to even be all that secretive with female-Cole if he did intend on making her his paramour & he thought he'd get away with just making her his paramour...which is most likely a woman in a much lower "rank" or of a family with much lower powers than some others. Yes, Viserys would say that he is acting "unseemly", he could be called stupid or reckless, and some lords and ladies would think he's acting too licentuously...but no one would begrudge or hate male-Rhaenyra long for extramaritally/premaritally sleeping with a woman of any origin as to say they were a "whore" or try to use this as their primary reason be shouldn't be the next King. The "new" greens don't as much shit to stand on. They'd look silly(ier) for actually using this as a reason to say he shouldn't be King.

Female-Cole has little to no leverage against a male-Rhaenyra in the specific moment of a sexual cornering bc there is simply more risk for her than for him based on their respective genders AND ranking. We can't separate the two, they will inform the other.

Cole-Cole has more social leverage than a woman actually corned by a male higher-ranking noble/royal bc Rhaenyra-Rhaenyra's reputation can be ruined a lot easier than a male heir's. In any iteration, female-Cole rather than Cole-Cole has more risk & pressures in because women are given less grace in events where it's known they extramaritally/premaritally sleep with a man. Because she's already side-eyed or doubted to be a capable leader or worthy, censures against her lack of practicing female obedience and chastity would make her seem less deserving of the throne and give her enemies more fuel to fire their own agenda.

Again, this hierarchical feudal society is built on making gender, class, etc. essential differences that grant individuals privileges over others.

Finally, Criston Cole, his relationship with Rhaenyra, AND their sex /how it happened cannot be compared to a modern-day boss-employee-relationship/sexual harassment sort of sex-reversed MeToo! situation. Viserys is, as many have said on both camps, Criston's real and unequivocal "boss". Really, this whole argument then diminishes what actual SA is and the MeToo! movement's focus on holding mainly male professional superiors accountable for willfully using their positions to assault those under them.

The writers trying to make Rhaenyra the one in with more psychological control over Criston when canonically there' isn't much evidence to support that is very suspicious.

Reasons to Hate Cole

A) Show/House of the Dragon

i)

Let's really think about Criston's suggestion to run away and marry.

The guy said this in episode 5 of season 1:

I've soiled my white cloak. And it's the only thing I have to my fսck¡ng name! I thought if we were married, I might be able to restore it.

Criston's logic reveals he's more concerned about retaining his own sense and perception of his honor and not "honor" in general bc running away to elope would bring great disgrace to both his and Rhaenyra’s families & houses. Not just Rhaenyra herself. If it is Rhaenyra's "duty" to marry Laenor, she would be breaking her vows to become Queen. If she runs away, she arguably broke her vows to "protect" the realm from the Others as by her and Viserys' conversation about Aegon's prophecy. Cole may not have heard this from Rhaenyra, but he didn't want to hear anything from her because all he wanted was for her to go along with what he wanted, not to actually listen to her any misgivings she may have had.

He looked at marriage as a way to "bring back" a sense of honor for himself. Vows hold "sacred" honor. Criston is trying to distance himself from the very idea of freely and willfully “soiling” his cloak by trying to "replace" his brken vows with new marriage vows.

Remeber, he consented to sex with Rhaenyra, so it was his willful decision to sleep with her and "soil" his own "cloak". The writers and the actor, again, both work in the understanding that Cole "chooses to lie with Rhaenyra" [top of this post].

Criston absolutely knows that she can't marry him in the usual, open way and still retain her position as heir or even as part of the royal family. He's asking her to abandon her entire family...let that sink in. It shows a gender disparity that does not justify "if the roles were reversed". Lower-ranked-Female-Cole would never and could never hope to convince the male-Rhaenyra to run away with her and start an entirely new life, abandon both of their families (for marriage specifically) bc he doesn't have to in order to marry her. He may lose some people's respect if he marries her, but the consequences for him versus a female heir are not the same. A female heir would have to run away & not be among other Westerosi nobles, become a peasant, etc. to marry someone like Cole. *EDIT (3/17/24)* Example: Prince Duncan and Jenny of Oldstones. *END OF EDIT*

He was attracted to her, but his main motivation was to escape the shame of his soiled cloak and soiled honor. That his honor is actually a lie, a made-up thing in itself. That he, himself, soiled it and thus he, himself, has made himself a liar.

ii)

He has been living in court being Rhaenyra’s personal guard for years. Some of us thought that he should have known that nobles largely do not follow the same rules that excuse their positions through rumors. That they withhold and lie to protect themselves. (And generally, humans are wont to try to bend their own rules to satisfy their own desires.) 

And so we think that he should have done the same--patiently withhold information and observe what happens so he could adapt to it--while Alicent was getting to ask if Rhaenyra had slept with Daemon, and not if he slept with her.

It may not be faithful to one's vows, but if he actually knew what kind of person Rhaenyra was--that she would never run away with him (as he should after so many years of being with her and thus I think he did know but asked anyway, this he never really cared about her but himself)--then he should have never brought up the suggestion of running away or thought she'd ever marry him. What exactly did he think would happen for him after sleeping w/her? And as I argued, he had much more choice than some may think and took advantage of it. As nobles often do.

And yet, he decides that Rhaenyra is responsible for what he freely chose for himself AND what he could have easily avoided as a man/Kingsguard and her being female. And he does so so he can avoid accountability. Rhaenyra is much less likely to be able to & doesn't want to, once again, "make" him do anything with her. And Rhaenyra does not control Criston Cole's conscience nor his penis nor his reasoning.

Occam's razor again.

iii)

He decides to take it out on the Velaryon boys, as clued by what happens in the training yard of episode 6. It's obvious he refuses to treat them similarly to the green princes and train them at the same level. He's also much more physically rough with Jace than with either green boy. Finally he presses for Aegon to get more violent than necessary against Jace, clearly taking pleasure in vicarious revenge against Rhaenyra.

He's a loser who uses children's pain to inflict his own frustrations. And no, "illegitimate" children are not less human than "trueborn" ones.

B) Fire and Blood (The Original Story)

These are the versions of what happens b/t them, Septon Eustace's vs Mushroom's ("A Question of Succession"):

Really, alinahams already tackled this HERE, so check them out.

Excerpt:

In both versions, Criston is never involved with Rhaenyra in any way. Both versions take care to mention how it was all about Rhaenyra's choices about her life and body that bothered Criston and made him hate her. It's never about Criston being used and discarded. That is what makes Criston an Incel and a villain. Rhaenyra never did anything wrong to him. She didn't do anything to deserve his life long hatred and betrayal. It was his own twisted madonna/whore complex that ruined his friendship with Rhaenyra.

Criston decides to make it his life mission to destroy Rhaenyra because he couldn't handle her making her own decisions, bc honestly even if she (a 16-17 yr old) had decided to try to seduce him as Viserra did with Baelon...did Baelon hold it against Viserra or say that she was a whore or try to condemn her or get back at her for daring to "disturb" him in his grief over his dead wife, their sister, Alyssa?

Even with Baelon being a prince to Criston's Kingsguard, we see that both Viserra & Rhaenyra were desperate to have some sense of control over their own bodies through sex--and for Viserra through a marriage to a more powerful man--because it is through sex and marriage that their entire autonomy is being taken away or suppressed. And some in this fandom have argued that Viserra was bad or amoral for trying to seduce Baelon in his grief, and some have even said she was trying to take advantage of him! But does Baelon think this way or try to "avenge" himself on her? No.

Why try to ruin her and her kids' entire lives? Once more, Rhaenyra, even in Mushroom's version, does not ever complain to Viserys or try to ruin Criston. So....

#criston cole #criston cole's characterization #fire and blood characters #hotd characterization #rhaenyra and criston #rhaenyra targaryen #rhaenyra's characterization #hotd episode 4 #hotd episode 5 #asoiaf #fire and blood #hotd #book vs tv show comparisons

[bohemian-nights]

In defense of Nettles innocence 🐑

Unpopular opinions coming through, Nettles is one of the most innocent characters during the Dance.

Every account of her being “less than innocent” comes from biased sources(the chroniclers) that don’t think that a lowborn girl, especially a homeless Black lowborn girl with a prostitute for a mother who’s had to steal for her supper, can be innocent. She’s simply not allowed to be innocent(other than acknowledging that the execution orders for her were wrong) based on the boxes that she’s been put into.

When you are dealing with a character like Netty you can't take one action in a vacuum. You have to cipher through the biased accounts and take into her entire life story to see who she is. When you actually look at her you have a girl who still possesses a great deal of empathy and compassion despite everything she’s been through and she’s been through a lot.

We never see her harming innocents. During the Battle of the Gullet, we see her defending her home(Driftmark) from the Triarchy:

The civilian casualties came from the Triarchy’s end, not Nettles and Sheepstealer who had come in to attack their ships at sea after they(the Triarchy) had already attacked Driftmark. Nettles never rained “fire and blood” down on the innocent people of Driftmark. She had only come in to protect them.

Furthermore, she shows great empathy when Jace a boy she barely knew was killed before his time during the battle. She mourns for his loss and sacrifice(in conjecture with witnessing the overall destruction of her home).

When the Blacks take the capital, shes not raining down fire balls, she literally just lands her dragon on Visenya’s Hill:

She isn’t a warmonger, or a war criminal, and while she’s technically a soldier, we don’t see her harming any civilians or instigating any fights. She sees very little combat and she’s not terrorizing everyday citizens.

Now onto her “innocence” or lack thereof. If she was forced to prostitute herself(aka if you believe that she’s not a maiden) then it’s most certainly not because she wanted to:

Her losing her virginity isn’t an empowering moment. It’s not a moment we should look onto to show she’s got agency or control or God forbid that she’s a wanton Jezebel. It’s a moment where we see just how dire her circumstances were. We can see how Westeros society harms girls like Nettles and leaves them vulnerable to abuse.

Nettles isn’t willingly having sex(we’ve got no indication of her having normal sexual relations with a lover, with the exception of Daemon, only that she potentially trades sex to feed her belly).

She's not some liberated medieval woman who because of her low status in society has sexual freedom. She’s not choosing to f*ck. That’s not what is happening here. It’s about survival plain and simple. In a world where women do not have many options and lowborn women even less, this is her only option. The option being rape(because again this isn’t something she wants).

She’s potentially a victim of pedophilic rapists. She would’ve forced herself to endure rape when she was a child as young as 9 all to feed herself. The act of losing her innocence is a sin on her abusers and not on her.

Let’s talk about her relationship with Daemon Targaryen. The most “villainous” thing she does is sleep with a man, Daemon, in an open marriage:

A man with whom she finds some amount of happiness (and she’s gotten so little of that). A relationship that hurts no one except her when it’s cruelly ripped away from her (and leaves her reeling in the aftermath because unfortunately, she’s the innocent who suffers from loving a man like Daemon).

In her other sexual dealings(her rape) she isn’t willingly choosing the course of action she’s taking. She’s doing so to survive, but with Daemon for the first time in her life, it’s not only about survival. It’s about her joy. This is what she wants and she puts herself and has someone who is willing to put her needs first.

As far as her slaughtering sheep and symbolism go, the sheep are more so a metaphor for herself. The sheep are her, not her victims or her sins. She's the lamb for slaughter. She's the innocent who is destroyed and transformed by others' sins to

Slaughtering the black ram(which symbolizes strength, determination, and triumph over one’s enemies) when she leaves Daemon marks her final transformation, because up until then I think she had hope and had found some happiness/peace in where she was. She is still a seed sprouting.

However, the last shred of what was is taken away with her execution orders. She therefore grows as a person. She’s overcome what has been thrown at her to come into her own. She is not beholden to anyone. She's her own woman. Yet at the same time, she’s still the same empathetic fearless Netty that she was. Those demons who sought to destroy her did not break her spirit. She's just been freed from them.

At the end of the day, Nettles is just a young woman who’s been dealt an unfair hand in life but still manages to rise above it all and never impart harm on a world that has harmed her.

She’s a scrappy girl who has to do what she has to, but she's not a “bad girl.” She hasn’t done anything reckless or harmful enough(any time she attacks, or steals, or whatever it’s in self-defense) to be considered a “bad girl” (which is why I find the accusation that she is downright untrue when you look at her character's actions) or that she’s even “morally gray” or a “wayward girl.” I think she’s an all around good person who hasn’t done anything fundamentally wrong especially considering the world she lives in.

Nettles is well within her rights to exact some vengeance on a world that has shown her nothing but cruelty and contempt, but when it’s all said and done what does she do? She chooses to lead a quiet life away from it all. She isolates herself and shuns polite society. She chooses peace and solitude rather than violence.

Does Nettles have to be an innocent character? No, but leading with the argument that she’s somehow a deeply flawed character who’s not a innocent to prove a point that you can do bad things and still deserve sympathy which is an important point to make, but it isn’t telling her story. There are plenty of characters throughout the Dance who are less than innocent that you can sympathize with, Nettles, however, isn’t one of them.

I think it’s a cop-out to say that Nettles isn’t innocent because that’s how the world, both ours and in universe, sees her. She’s not a mother whose innocent child has been unjustly murdered right before her eyes, or a little girl who witnessed her family killing each other, and she’s not one of the faceless victims of the Dance. She doesn’t have blonde hair or pale skin.

Physically, she’s not what we think of when we think of “innocent” and that blinds our own opinions of her and her story despite who she’s shown to be.

It takes more to see past our biases, to take off the goggles, and to truly recognize that she’s not a corrupted person than to say that she’s innocent because that is what we see when we look at her.

We don’t recognize that someone like Nettles is one of the innocents whose life was almost destroyed by the destruction around her. We don’t see that she is unquestionably a good girl who has a lot of garbage thrown her way but manages to rise above it and not sink into its depravity because that is not what we have been taught to see.

Instead, we see the less-than-innocent girl who while she did not deserve to be murdered, she still has something about her that leaves one feeling like she is tainted.

#nettles #nettles characterization #netty #house of the dragon #hotd #hotd spoilers #nettles asoiaf #nettles f&b #hotd meta #bncommentary #please no one take me seriously because I do understand the take that she doesn’t have to be innocent but at the same time screw it #I just feel like there isn’t enough evidence to write off her innocence

[fromtheseventhhell]

I ignore about 95% of the conversations surrounding Arya having killed people because, outside of Arya stans, people refuse to include the context of the very violent circumstances she experiences + her trauma which influences her actions. She wasn't destined to be a killer and her being forced on the run, having to survive during a war (at times on her own), having to witness countless people being tortured and murdered, being enslaved as a prisoner of war, having to witness the deaths of her family, etc. are all hugely important factors. Not to mention the times when her life is literally on the line and she has to make tough decisions to ensure her survival. The only time her trauma is acknowledged is when people are using it to prove she's "too far gone", otherwise it's essays on how she hasn't suffered that much. It's so boring how people ignore well-developed characters just to reduce them to one or two aspects of their story. And this treatment is only for certain characters; let someone mention Sansa being part of the plot to poison Sweetrobin and all of a sudden, people can understand being forced to make questionable decisions under difficult circumstances.

#arya stark #asoiaf #fandom nonsense #I'm just so uninterested in the same boring repetitive conversations where people debate fanon characterizations...boring! yawning! sloppy! #Sorry?? I guess that she hasn't had the benefit of being in a castle the whole story with relative safety #but people trying to demonize a child who has one of the most harrowing and violent journeys for the decisions she's been forced to make #is ridiculous cause why are you more worried about how Arya reacted then to the actual situation she's in?? #If they're feeling especially faux-progressive they'll pretend to care about Daeron and cry about how innocent he was #but of course this never leads to criticism of Ned or Westerosi society...nope just calling Arya a psychopath and nothing else #At this point it's just jealousy because they know their fave never would've survived what she did and not only did she survive #but she showed off incredible skills and intelligence + has only learned and grown more + constantly gets her importance reinforced #yeah I'd be mad if she wasn't my fave either 🤭 #the disconnect between Arya antis and George is so funny cause they twist themselves in knots over how /evil/ she is and then there's #George calling her a character everyone will love ooooh shouldn't have picked one of the author's faves to hate on 🤷🏾‍♀️

[visenyaism]

who do you think is winning the house targaryens next top visenya competition(great bastards edition)

contestants:bittersteel,bloodraven,shiera seastar,daemon blackfyre

Shiera is out of the running because Shiera really just is the first ever Shiera. They’ve never done that before or since. Daemon Blackfyre was a chill dude who everyone tried to put on the throne simply because he was a hottie so I would call that more rhaenys (renly) coded than anything else.

Bloodraven and bittersteel are neck and neck. Bloodraven has the weird targ gender and theatrics of state power and surveillance aspect, but Bittersteel has the unwavering commitment to installing the Perfect King and no sense of humor trait. when breaking this time we have to consider: bloodraven is a Blackwood so I’m going to let him win. 

#asoiaf #the shiera characterization that only exists in my mind is so good

[aradeia]

Perhaps the death of Balerion during the reign of Viserys I represents how the Targaryen family lost sight of Aegon's dream around that time. The Targaryens supposedly united all Westeros under their rule to defend against the threat of the Others. But during the Dance of the Dragons, and the many Blackfyre rebellions that followed, the Targaryens became preoccupied with which individual sat the Iron Throne. Balerion's death is perhaps symbolic of the Targaryen family becoming more interested in destroying itself (for nothing) than in looking ahead towards the imminent threat.

#i love viserys' characterization in hotd #for all his talk about aegon's prophecy #he does just about all in his power to destroy the unity of the targaryen family #by undermining rhaenyra's claim to the throne at just about every point #of course viserys was balerion's last rider #and of course balerion died during his reign #because once again #if i look back i am lost #asoiaf #making a dragon uquiz right now and so i'm thinking a lot about the dragons