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lagosbratzdoll · 7 months

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On Daenerys, Colonisation and Race Discourse within the ASOIAF Fandom

This has been on my mind for a good long while and honestly, as much as I would like to leave discourse in the pits, it has been bugging me intermittently over the past few weeks.

Far too many of you get on here and call people who like the fictional dragon-riding family, neo-Nazis and that sentiment is so prevalent, that white people feel comfortable telling me a black woman that I am a neo-Nazi for rooting for Daenerys Targaryen. I am upholding neo-Nazi power fantasies for wanting to see a little girl live at the end of a story. I am a neo-Nazi for wanting to see the rape survivor have the family she aches for and children with the man (or men) she loves.

Then, those same people go on spiels about how the systemic erasure of those who sing the song of the earth and other old races is not colonialism. That their removal from their home is not displacement but an agreement between two equal parties. The fact that the only place where those who sing the song of the earth exist in the present timeline is north of the wall, surrounded by the bones of their dead, is not a travesty. That the expulsion of the old races from their home isn't that bad and should not be condemned.

Instead, people argue, completely seriously, that the harm that the First Men and Andals have caused is centuries in the past, so essentially the slate has been wiped clean. The logical leaps that are required to arrive at such a boneheaded conclusion are truly mind-boggling, and those who make such arguments are not good people.

I am unsure how one could read those books and come away with the impression that the old races do not mourn the loss of their home. I am unsure how one could read The Last of the Giants[1] and Ygritte’s reaction to both the song and Jon’s dismissal of the ethnic cleansing of the giants then believe that the old races and the free folk have moved past their displacement.

In Westeros, from the Wall to the broken arm of Dorne, they all speak one language despite the fact they are all different ethnicities and they all landed on the shores at different times. That is not the case in Essos, we have been introduced to at least six languages and in A Dance with Dragons, Tyrion notes that the Valyrian spoken in the Free Cities has evolved into nine distinct dialects, and they are well on their way to becoming different languages.

How would a continent as large and diverse as Westeros maintain its hegemony over the people if not for forced assimilation, discriminatory practices and violence? The brutal repression required to keep one house in power for thousands of years is nothing to sniff at. The suppression required to keep the vast majority of Westeros worshipping one (or seven) gods. The systems in place ensure that language does not grow or evolve amongst the highborns at least.

Centuries before Aegon's Landing the maesters were the definitive educational authority and even now centuries after, nothing has changed. The grey rats still decide who learns what and when they learn it. There's one in every highborn home, all correspondence passes through them, they are the healers and the councillors.

The circular logic gets even more blockheaded when you factor in the fact that Daenerys is far from the only white character in the books. She is not the only character who wishes for home. She is not the only character who draws strength from her ancestors, her bloodline and her magical creatures.

Cersei draws strength from her family’s iconography, and the Stark children (Jon included) all draw strength from their direwolves, their home and their blood. Sansa, Arya and Bran wish to return home and their home was built on the indiscriminate murder and displacement of the indigenous peoples. Their home is built on centuries of rape, murder, exclusionary practices and sexual slavery.

However, if we give the nonsensical argument that time erases crimes air; the Starks, Lannisters and Tullys are warring to settle personal grievances in the present timeline. As a consequence of that war, thousands (a modest guesstimate) of small folk, minor nobles and even some major ones have been raped, tortured, maimed and killed.

Despite all this, no one writes meta after meta about how Sansa and her siblings must surely die for justice to be had for those who sing the song of the earth, the free folk, the giants and all the old races that fled beyond the wall.

People write meta about Cersei and how she must die, but those are typically more misogynistic nature. They typically argue that she must die not for the “crime” of being Lannister, but for the “crime” of being Cersei and “ruining” Jamie.

I would not mind criticisms of Dany and her peace-focused approach to ending slavery because the approach is naïve and she gives the slavers far too much ground. However, she is learning, growing and self-critiquing. At the end of A Dance with Dragons, she has decided to embrace fire and blood, her knight is breaking the false peace which is a necessary step forward.

What I find offensive is people saying that she should have planned better before she abolished slavery. And that the death, violence, and sickness that arises from her quest to eradicate slavery is somehow worse than the death, violence, and sickness that already existed in Slaver’s Bay.

This argument often downplays the horrific conditions and suffering that exist(ed) under the slave system in Slaver's Bay. Such arguments are often in poor taste and prioritise the lives and comforts of the slavers more than the people they have enslaved.

I would not mind criticisms of Dany if people applied that same critique even-handedly. The same people who believe that Jon and Bran have done much to rectify the evil that their ancestors perpetuated believe that Dany has not done anything to right the wrongs of her ethnic kin. They praise them for the non-existent steps that they have taken, but in the same breath, they condemn Dany for not being able to immediately end the plague that is slavery.

It is perfectly alright to not like fictional characters, no law requires you to like certain fictional characters over others. However, what is not right is making broad accusations about those who do, it is beyond the pale. It is disgusting, and annoying, and trivialises real-world issues to score cheap points against fictional characters.

Equating the survival of a teenage survivor to the restoration of a fascist house or neo-Nazi power fantasy when such designations do not exist in the world of ice and fire is strange behaviour. Saying that the teenage survivor will eventually be manipulated and raped (again) before ending up dead on her manipulator's blade is also strange behaviour.

Dismissing the horrors of colonialism, especially when the text shows you that the involved parties are still affected by it, is not normal and often veers into real-world imperialism apologia. While criticism and analysis of characters and their actions are valid and even encouraged, it is essential that we do not resort to sweeping generalisations about other people and that we keep criticisms of characters grounded in the text.

[1]

Ooooooh, I am the last of the giants, my people are gone from the earth.

The last of the great mountain giants, who ruled all the world at my birth

Oh, the smallfolk have stolen my forests, they’ve stolen my rivers and hills.

And they’ve built a great wall through my valleys, and fished all the fish from my rills

In stone halls they burn their great fires, in stone halls they forge their sharp spears.

Whilst I walk alone in the mountains, with no true companion but tears.

They hunt me with dogs in the daylight, they hunt me with torches by night.

For these men who are small can never stand tall, whilst giants still walk in the light.

Oooooooh, I am the LAST of the giants, so learn well the words of my song.

For when I am gone the singing will fade, and the silence shall last long and long.

#I do not like most of y’all.#Do not call people of colour you do not know neonazis to win points against a fictional character.#It is not my fault that most of your faves are boring and do nothing to drive the plot forward #take it up with george rr martin and stop villifying dany and her (mid) family.#The insistence that we must mind fandom etiqutte is tired as hell too especially because people use it as silencing tools.#“Yes I called you a neonazi but you are the real weirdo for finding my post so really it’s on you that you saw that.”#that’s how y’all sound.#If I see another post that equates enjoying dany to being a neonazi #i will make it everybodys problem.#Took a long break from this fandom because the rancid takes were overshadowing the good takes #and i’ve been back less than a year and the takes are even more rancid than before.#hotd opened an evil door that should’ve remained shut.#Cause why the fuck are there criston cole apologists? Why are there aemond and aegon ii apologists? It is a dark world we live in.#put the last giant at the bottom for my homies who have not read the books which if we're speaking real is more than half of y'all #now that i have gotten this out of my system #it is time to get back to demon slayer #daenerys targaryen #asoiaf #asoiaf thoughts #asoiaf nonsense #if you saw the typos in the first version #no you didn't #edited this to add some thoughts I originally put in the tags because I felt it worked better there.

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syraxesrevenge · 4 months

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me when theon

#theon greyjoy #asoiaf nonsense #asoiaf #a song of ice and fire #a storm of swords #a clash of kings #a game of thrones

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fromtheseventhhell · 3 months

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Dany: *breathes*

Dark!Dany "theories": I honestly don't know how there's any question of Dany turning evil when we have such obvious foreshadowing like this in the books. In the first place, this is not just Dany exhaling...it is a violent expulsion of air from her body. It's a sigh, a sign of impatience which shows that Dany becomes frustrated and restless very easily. Not only that, the presence of oxygen strengthens a fire and can lead to a sudden explosion; when Dany gets impatient, intentional or not, her first instinct is to add "fuel to the fire". And finally, air is the very essence of life. She expels "life" from her body, rather violently at that, the moment she becomes impatient and unconsciously begins to turn to fire...do I really need to say more? It's so obvious that Mad Queen!Dany is being built up, George isn't even trying to be subtle lol

#daenerys targeryan #pro daenerys targaryen #asoiaf #fandom nonsense #is it more funny or sad that this is barely an exaggeration of /dark Dany/ metas? I can't decide #draft sweep 🧹

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atopvisenyashill · 4 months

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that arianne chapter reconvinced me of that theory that the rest of dorne Does Not Fuck With House Dayne Anymore, like, to the rest of Westeros Arthur is a shining example of chivalry and knightly ideals, but Dorne is like “Lewyn had to be blackmailed into fighting for Rhaegar, where the fuck were you when Elia and the babies were slaughtered you useless binch?!” i just think even the other characters do not take gerold dayne even a little serious, they all are aware he’s skilled but it feels like they’re laughing at him behind his back and he knows it.

#dorne is famous for banding together when they face an enemy bent towards subjugation of their ways & not just territory disputes. even mor #than other areas! look at how often a handful of houses will side against their ruling house. in every war! dorne stays united thru #ALL OF THE DORNISH CONQUESTS!! not ONE HOUSE switches to the it. i think no one cared that the yronwoods sided with daemon bc that was #ultimately territory & title nonsense that doesn’t matter. so i think the rest of dorne considered aerys ‘threat to us as a people’ and wer #PISSED the FUCK OFF that arthur didn’t see it that way and stayed at the tower of joy. and take it out on his house.#rani liveblogs asoiaf #house dayne #dorne #the ghost of elia martell

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horizon-verizon · 10 days

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Honestly as a neutral party I would prefer Jaehaera living to Daenaera being introduced. Jaehaera is an innocent, mentally disabled child and her death is needlessly cruel. Her death is the least plot relevant of all of the child deaths that have happened in the dance and it's reasonable for people to want that changed since it comes off as pointlessly cruel. Killing Alicent or even just focusing on her imprisonment more is enough to show that the greens have paid for their betrayal. At least Daenaera can still be introduced and do something else in the narrative even if she doesn't marry Aegon.

I've already explained why Jaehaera's death was plot relevant HERE and HERE.

Daenaera's entire narrative purpose was to marry Aegon and have his children to propagate the Targ line AND to become part of Aegon's mental rehabilitation from the effects of the civil war and watching his own mother get eaten burned/alive by a dragon. This is also reason why she's a fan fav in the first place; it's seen as a noble undertaking to some and a way for the Targs to move away from the greens finally. What other narrative use would you have her have?!

We can't bring up how after the War of the Roses the two fighting houses (Yorks and Lancasters) were successfully brought together in marriage to justify Jaehaera marrying and having a family with Aegon. Because:

Elizabeth of York wasn't disabled like Jaehaera

neither her nor Henry Tudor were little kids when they married

this is a fictional tale that, while modeled after some real events and people, is using them as springboards for a specific, purposefully created "message" unique to the author's

and imagine what it would being pregnant several times really be like for a very mentally incapacitated and traumatized girl like her?!!

Much less the other traumatized boy who's to be her husband? What the consummation and all the...impregnating times looked like?! Then, imagine what the family life would have been like, with these parents unable to ever connect thus the resentment is worse and their kids seeing that?

This doesn't justify Unwin Peake murdering Jaehaera, but no she never should have been married off to Aegon or anyone in the first place and that was not Unwin's doing but a larger group's--Aegon's council/patriarchal feudalism. This is what GRRM's trying to tell you, stop resisting it.

I can believe that it is the way she died and the other context of so much violence men and adults perform against women and girls in this world is what really offends people enough for them to say that somehow, this a narratively irrelevant death. Because they're just that horrified.

The feelings are valid. But the action to erase the significance of the death is not valid. You definitely can wish for a much less violent one, like a poisoning that puts her to sleep or something. The death is supposed to be tragic and make you feel that it wasn't deserved, was horrible, etc. Because it was all those things.

And to say such an untrue thing as "not narratively relevant" also leads me to suspect that some people don't like Jaehaera's death either bc they just:

wanted the greens to win in some way bc they favor them and their cause (my second linked post)

you--knowing that Daenaera will likely be black in the show IF they ever get to the Maiden's Ball--go so hard for Jaehaera bc she at least is a white girl in the universe of HotD

want excessively centrist politics to sway the story at the expense of actual understanding of why we should change and upend the status quo entirely (here the feudal entrapment of girls and women); deny a reality, discourage learning to the oppressive status quo can prevail [on this trend of neutrality]...the truth is the villains/antagonists were always the greens

AND/OR, are avoidant of facing ugly, sordid truths of oppression because they are close to it in real life and haven't found ways of separating that from collective understanding of oppressive systems/coping mechanism

Look anon, Alicent's imprisonment doesn't make up for mass death. Because it's not even just about Alicent as the individual, the grandmother, the mother, etc. It's the effect of her actions on a population. Jaehaera was one of many girls Otto AND Alicent endangered (another being Halaena). Though her actions became something much bigger than her & things went out of her control, that doesn't stop them from being hers AND having affected thousands of lives. Her main aim was to accrue power through her kids and grandkids--who she chose to risk by usurping Rhaenyra and beginning the war--the consequence is she loses said kids and grandkids through other's similar ambition. Again, bc even though those kids were noble and were supposed to be relatively safe, because they are all technically heirs or adults around them can use them accrue power (whether by killing them or through marriages or whatever), they were also targets. We could say similar for Rhaenyra's children, as what happens to her youngest 2; all of them in one way or another die because they were or could be used. however, they AND the greens' kids were all safer if the greens had not usurped Rhaenyra.

The greens were the aggressors and transgressors. The ones who started this war and looked for something out of it. They tried to act worse against Rhaenrya before/during the war AND the whole of Westeros before/during/after, thus they get the worse punishment and lose more than she did.

The entire point is that the greens lose everything, because they went after "everything". They lose everything, including their kids bc they relentlessly and hypocritically ran to obtain more power for themselves by attempting to exclude a woman from the position she never would have had without the will of a man.

They went on the basis that a girl/woman should not rule or become an heir before any direct male relatives...so Jaehaera was cut out of the line of succession by her own side of the family, thus she was also less prioritized, thus she was made into a baby factory for Aegon III. She became their last chance to get their blood to at least be part of the future line, but even that's dashed by a man who had similar ambitions as Otto and Alicent.

In trying to go against the king's word/an actual law, the greens also made it much more justified for someone to not care much for Aegon II's claim or authority...bc if you can so easily flout a king's word, why should you care about the guy you're trying to make king?! And using people who themselves are willing to be so dishonest creates a higher likelihood that they'd betray you, as similar to Ulf and Hugh betraying Rhaenyra. (And somehow, Rhaenyra is the only naive one when she expects people to follow through with their oaths 🙄)

Have you ever thought, anon, about those other girls who were maimed or terrorized into not appearing before Aegon III in the Maiden's Ball? Sure, most of them weren't disabled (Priscella Hogg was, I think), but what happens to Jaehaera is because she was girl in the way of a man's ambitions and not because she was disabled. What about all those Tumbleton folk, Bitterbridge refugees (the raped septas and girls as young as 8!), and riverland peasants--most of them children! Undoubtedly, you will have disabled children in those populations, anon. Why is Jaehaera's death so much more valuable than these mass deaths of also children? Remember that Alicent raised her kids to easier justify committing these atrocities. Maelor and Jaehaerys' deaths also reflect these events. Jaehaera's death was markedly different in meaning from theirs (to open up space for another girls who's being used) because she was female. In the first linked post, I talk about why and how people used Jaehaera's marriage to Aegon and how that reflects on her death being unique from her brothers' because of her gender.

GRRM comments, through Jaehaera and these girls and Rhaenyra what one pattern of F&B has: being female is dangerous because it is to be more of an object or property in lieu of self-concerned ambitious men to the point where the most vulnerable and those who cannot practice some of the same sort of agency can experience gruesome consequences--sometimes to become terrors themselves in their attempts to gain denied agency or defend themselves.

#jaehaera targaryen #daenaera velaryon #asoiaf asks to me #jaehaera's death #fire and blood writing #the greens vs the blacks #fandom critical #hotd fandom #green stan nonsense #fandom nonsense

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nightswatchdisbandmentera · 3 months

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I do think it’s quite interesting how GRRM’s ideals of a good king are confronted and challenged in Jon’s storyline.

Jon is undoubtedly a good person. And he has the capability to be a good king. But being a good person in the world of ASOIAF is not always rewarded. And being a good king is easier said than done.

“They say the king gives justice and protects the weak.” She started to climb off the rock, awkwardly, but the ice had made it slippery and her foot went out from under her. Jon caught her before she could fall, and helped her safely down. The woman knelt on the icy ground. “M’lord, I beg you—”

“Don’t beg me anything. Go back to your hall, you shouldn’t be here. We were commanded not to speak to Craster’s women.”

“You don’t have to speak with me, m’lord. Just take me with you, when you go, that’s all I ask.”

All she asks, he thought. As if that were nothing.

“I’ll … I’ll be your wife, if you like. My father, he’s got nineteen now, one less won’t hurt him none.”

(Jon III, ACOK)

The situation with Gilly at Craster’s Keep is a perfect example of how difficult it is to give the king’s justice in certain situations. Jon wants to help Gilly, he even feels guilty and horrible for choosing not to, but he cannot so easily offer his help because he is a man of the Night’s Watch.

What’s interesting about this conversation is that Gilly addresses and appeals to Jon as she would a king. She places herself as the weak party and Jon as the king who is expected to protect the weak. She kneels to him, as one kneels to a king, and addresses him as “M’lord”; ironic because Jon is just a bastard, who is now a member of the Night’s Watch. Much has been said about this exchange, and fandom often gives Jon a lot less empathy than he deserves. The truth is that he is in a very terrible situation, notwithstanding the character development that is to come regarding his perception of the wildlings.

But I’m looking back at GRRM’s quote about how being king gives one wealth and power and ability to do something, anything. This is something that Jon absolutely lacks in this situation. He may have been symbolically positioned as the rightful king by the narrative, but that doesn’t mean he has any actual power to enact change within the narrative itself. If Jon were nearly as callous about this whole situation as this fandom wants us to believe, he wouldn’t feel so guilty about refusing to help Gilly as he does later on. P.S: I also want to note that Sam is often lauded for being the one to help the girl, “unlike Jon”…except, Sam only does so when the chaos that follows the mutiny and Craster’s death gives Gilly the opportunity to flee. Sam understood that he had no power to help Gilly early in ACOK and that’s why he sent her to Jon. But he also overestimated just how much Jon would be able to do at that moment. Jon may have been the Lord Commander’s steward, but that didn’t give him the ability to go against Mormont (especially when the LC himself was turning a blind eye to Craster’s vices).

It’s then interesting how this situation of a young girl trying to flee a precarious situation is repeated later on in ADWD and this time, Jon manages to help her. Except the difference is that Jon is the Lord Commander now, not just the LC’s steward. What he couldn’t do for Gilly in ACOK, he can do for Alys even though that too places him in a tough situation.

“Why not the king? Karhold declared for Stannis.”

“My uncle declared for Stannis, in hopes it might provoke the Lannisters to take poor Harry’s head. Should my brother die, Karhold should pass to me, but my uncles want my birthright for their own. Once Cregan gets a child by me they won’t need me anymore. He’s buried two wives already.” She rubbed away a tear angrily, the way Arya might have done it. “Will you help me?”

“Marriages and inheritance are matters for the king, my lady. I will write to Stannis on your behalf, but—”

Alys Karstark laughed, but it was the laughter of despair. “Write, but do not look for a reply. Stannis will be dead before he gets your message. My uncle will see to that.”

“What do you mean?”

“Arnolf is rushing to Winterfell, ’tis true, but only so he might put his dagger in your king’s back. He cast his lot with Roose Bolton long ago … for gold, the promise of a pardon, and poor Harry’s head. Lord Stannis is marching to a slaughter. So he cannot help me, and would not even if he could.” Alys knelt before him, clutching the black cloak. “You are my only hope, Lord Snow. In your father’s name, I beg you. Protect me.”

(Jon IX, ADWD)

We’re seeing a repeat of Gilly and Jon here. Alys is now the weak and helpless maid and Jon, who is still a brother of the Night’s Watch, is once again made to play the role of a king.

Obviously the narrative, as it was with Gilly’s situation in ACOK, is saying that Jon is the king because while Alys could’ve pinned her hopes on Stannis Baratheon (who is actually titled), she chose to flee north to Jon the bastard. And what’s interesting this time is that Jon actually helps Alys in whatever way he can. He uses his status as Lord Commander and his dealings with the Thenns to secure Alys’ marriage. He oversteps his bounds as Lord Commander, and the irony is that he starts to act more as a king would.

So it’s interesting to see how the character often marked as the true king by GRRM’s narrative handles the moral obligations that come with kingship. And GRRM is putting Jon through these tests when he doesn’t even have a crown of his own. GRRM often makes Jon prove his worth as a king despite thinking of himself only as a bastard. We see this best when Stannis comes to the Wall.

Surprisingly, Stannis smiled at that. “You’re bold enough to be a Stark. Yes, I should have come sooner. If not for my Hand, I might not have come at all. Lord Seaworth is a man of humble birth, but he reminded me of my duty, when all I could think of was my rights. I had the cart before the horse, Davos said. I was trying to win the throne to save the kingdom, when I should have been trying to save the kingdom to win the throne.” Stannis pointed north. “There is where I’ll find the foe that I was born to fight.”

(Jon XI, ASOS)

It is true that Jon and Stannis are in very different situations. Stannis is aware that he is the rightful king (as Robert’s heir), and he has also heard from Melisandre that he is the prophesied prince. Jon, on the other hand, is a bastard boy completely unaware of his royal birth or his magical destiny. Yet it’s so interesting that it’s Jon the bastard who was actually doing his duty as the king (without even knowing it) whereas Stannis had to be reminded of it. So despite his failings every now and then, Jon does live up to the author’s ideal of a great king.

#in my king jon feels again dksjsnsnsdj #this started as an introspective look at the morally difficult choices Jon has to make across the series and how that relates to kingship #and then took a turn into jonsnowdefensesquad nonsense in the middle smh #2 am thoughts #jon snow #asoiaf #valyrianscrolls #forgot to add but that last stannis bit is why I think jon will be king at the end of the story and not in twow like most jon stans #grrm legit puts my boy through the ringer #he will have to prove his worth (and make lots of morally ambiguous choices)#he needs to save the kingdom FIRST then be its king

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jackoshadows · 8 months

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It's baffling how this fandom keeps theorizing that Arya's subplots and role in the story can be replaced by any Stark, specifically Sansa, and it would be just the same when the show did replace fake Arya with another character - and then GRRM specifically refuted that change several times and pointed to that change on the show as where show canon diverged from book canon!

This is a fandom talking point that GRRM himself has refuted and said 'Nah, you can't do that. That plot specifically needs Fake Arya. The story needs fake Arya in the North and when the TV show replaced her with another character, the TV show then diverges from the books and becomes different canon' .

Also GRRM is not talking about the writing for show Sansa in season 6, 7 or 8 and the direction D&D took her character on the show where the only support she gets is from Littlefinger and the Vale army he rallies to help her. In fact GRRM does not even mention Sansa in this interview. He is talking specifically of 'Fake Arya' and how Fake Arya is important to that plot point in the North.

They (D&D) started making changes even as early as season one. And I remember I had discussions with them back in season one. When I was more involved in the process, when we’d discuss things and the fact that they removed Jeyne Poole was a very early thing. They actually said, oh no, Jeyne Poole is in it. You see the girl that’s sitting next to Sansa in the one scene in the feast at Winterfell. Yes, that’s Jeyne Poole, but you never hear a name and she’s not in it, but I did tell them. ‘Yes, but there’s the butterfly effect’, as I called it, deriving from the famous Ray Bradbury story, A Sound of Thunder, crush a butterfly the Jurassic and suddenly you changed all of human history from that point forward. Unintentionally. A little change in a long narrative can have big changes further on. And now, Gone with the Wind didn’t have to worry about that, cause those two children that they removed never had any impact on the story. And Margaret Mitchell didn’t go on to write 6 more novels in which the children grew up and became the leader of the Ku Klux Klan. Whatever the hell, you know, she might have done with those two boys.

And I think they were both boys, and Rhett’s daughter was a girl. So she didn’t have to deal with the butterfly effect there. You know, when we remove Jeyne Poole from season one, then you don’t have Jeyne Poole to be the fake Arya, as happens in the book. So what do you do then? The butterfly effect has done that. (---)

The butterfly effect can have that, but getting back to the whole issue of canon, the butterfly effect affects the canon. But there’s also sometimes deliberate changes in a show where the showrunners or the writers or the studio, the network, or wherever it comes from, goes in a different direction. So what we’re doing at this point in the history of A Song of Ice and Fire, Game of Thrones, Westeros, whatever you wanna call it. Yeah. We have two canons. We have the show canon, the Game of Thrones canon. And we have the Song of Ice and Fire canon.

GRRM thought Fake Arya was so important he was insisting to D&D way back while filming season one in 2010 to cast Jeyne Poole.

And even D&D realized that the Jon/Arya relationship is so sacred that they didn't even attempt to replicate that with Sansa in the North. They even had show Jon Snow make a suicidal attempt to save his little brother Rickon Stark - which show Sansa advises against because fuck family - but we never got the whole Jon breaking his NW oaths to attack the Boltons for Arya Stark happening on the show with Sansa.

The asoiaf fandom loves appropriating book Arya's plots for Sansa. Jonsa shippers love appropriating her relationship with Jon for their utterly absurd crackship all the while dragging Arya down as 'ugly' 'violent' and 'masculine'.

Non-shippers love to give away all the politicking around Arya to Sansa, take away Arya intelligence and know-how of the North because their sexism only allows them to see one Stark girl as political and leader of the North. It's not about what the author has actually written for these characters, no, it's about which character passes their standard for femininity.

So yeah, one is free to replace Arya with Sansa because one is dissatisfied with Sansa's canonical book story that GRRM has written for the character and instead prefer Benioff and Weiss' show fanfiction or want Arya's book story for Sansa's character because she's conventionally beautiful and a 'real girl' according to the tradfems.

However, keep in mind that GRRM thinks 'Fake Arya' is very important to his story and that's a Northern political sublot that revolves specifically around Arya Stark in the books.

Once again, the Stark sisters and their book subplots are not interchangeable!

#GRRM #Arya Stark #asoiaf #anti GOT #Fandom nonsense

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badbedforbedding · 5 months

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Sansa lied to protect her sister. I'm sure that Sansa thought that.... actually there are 6 chapters of her own POV in AGoT and she didn't think that once. Isn't it nice to have her perspective and thoughts of that moment? I sure love it.

#asoiaf #separate headcanon from canon #book!sansa got flaws but you cant accept that #god forbid a character is well rounded in this fandom #pro arya stark #fandom nonsense

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autumnillustration · 4 months

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"They say she threw herself from the highest tower of Driftmark. They say she did it to chase her father into the Seven Hells. Rumour thought it an act driven by the guilt of having maimed her youngest uncle.

Gossip even stretched to blatant falsehoods: as reparation for his blinding, Laenys Velaryon had been betrothed to him—why wouldn't she want to escape such a fate?

It goes without saying that if that'd been true, he would have done everything in his power to keep her safe. The loss of his eye was inconsequential next to the loss of her."

the drowned dragon

#i am still on my HotD nonsense #with Laen and Aem as my muses #laenys velaryon (oc)#aemond targaryen #the drowned dragon #house of the dragon #asoiaf #illustration #art #fanart #artists on tumblr

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circe1fanatic · 10 months

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I don't know where the idea that having the Stark name offered Sansa less protection in KL than not having it comes from but do these people forget that Jeyne Poole exists?

Sansa wasn't completely safe and did suffer greatly under the Lannisters but do people really think Jeyne got a better deal because she wasn't a Stark? The Lannisters didn't need her, so they gave to to Littlefinger and he put her in a brothel and forced her into prostitution. She wasn't a Stark so they had no need for her and just threw her away without a second thought. They didn't keep Sansa because she was lady like and polite, the same could be said about Jeyne. They did it because she was a Stark and they could use her against her family.

So yes, having the Stark name clearly protected Sansa more than not having it.

#asoiaf #anti sansa stans #fandom nonsense

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gendrie · 7 months

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arya underfoot is my fave sobriquet in asoiaf. i love love love it. arya is "dubbed" underfoot by her father's men. its a sign of affection between the men who served the starks and arya who took in interest in them. she had a close relationship with all of the people in winterfell and this name is an enduring part of that.

arya says fat tom came up with the name. its one of the last things hullen says with his dying breath. when his son harwin recognizes arya its what he calls her while holding back tears. even in adwd jon and theon both think of her as arya underfoot.

its a name arya likes which is why its frequently used in contrast with horseface - a name that made her feel like an outsider. arya underfoot, though, is a gesture of arya being embraced by her community. it really feels like the truest essence of her character.

#asoiaf nonsense #arya stark #and so underrated tbh #the fandom really has to be reminded of this aspect of her character #for some reason #bc its her most consistent trait

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katerina-q · 3 months

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free rhaegar and lyanna from this dumbass fandom

#rhaegar targaryen #asoiaf #Lyanna stark #it's 2024 #so many nonsensical takes #copy paste ass takes #meh

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nogoodsheepstealing-greatgrandma · 1 year

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Daenerys is 14

And she does stay in Slavers Bay and try to rebuild the economy. Source: A Dance With Dragons.

She spends much of the book trying to negotiate new trade deals with the Lhazarene and the Qartheen, trying to plant new olive groves and bean fields, trying to reform the guilds membership so former slaves can earn proper wages as skilled craftsmen. She tries to assimilate with Meereenese culture to ease a peaceful transition of power, she consults with their priestess, she adopts their religious rites and their uncomfortable traditional dress, she agrees under pressure to marry a Meereenese noble (she doesn't force anyone into marriage at dragonpoint like in the show). And she goes out personally to feed and care for the sick and starving refugees at her door, she tries to set up quarantine zones to slow the spread of infection.

And yeah she falls short. But the odds are stacked against her. She's 14, for starters. And before she arrived the slavers burnt all the olive groves and salted the soil so she couldn't use them, and as she calculates it will take 30 years before the land will be truly productive again. She also has the Meereenese slaving class working very hard to sabotage her by funding domestic terrorism within the city. And she has to deal with a refugee crisis, a famine, a plague, and an alliance of pro-Slavery states forming a blockade around Meereen and threatening to siege the city.

True the refugee crisis is arguably due to her leaving Astapor. She set up a new government, but she should have stayed longer to consolidate it. But she is only 14, and her main adviser/parental figure is too busy being a pro-slavery pedophile.

And the fall of Astapor isn't completely on her shoulders. She left adults in charge, people with qualifications and who knew the land and people better than she did. They had political agency and responsibility. As did Cleon. He could have chosen not to overthrow the Council and name himself King. He could have chosen to heed Daenerys when she told him "don't start a war with the Yunkai". And the Yunkai could have chosen not to slaughter Astapor and chase the refugees to Meereen. They could have simply removed Cleon and then recognised Daenerys had no part in his actions. The Yunkai could have chosen not to then declare war on Meereen.

The institution of slavery is complicated to overthrow and complicated to replace and even complicated in the ways it reasserts itself. Daenerys isn't the only actor here who determines the fate of Slavers Bay (though if she unleashes her dragons she can certainly become the most decisive actor again). The entire point of ADWD is that it's much more complicated than that - its GRRM's answer to "what was Aragorn's tax policy?". She is a 14 year old child who does her best against impossible odds, and who explicitly puts any dreams of Westeros on hold indefinitely. Time and time again she is offered the chance and means to sail for Westeros, and she turns it down each time because she knows she can't leave the people of Meereen behind to die.

And hopefully the lesson she learns by the end of ADWD is that she has to stop being conciliatory towards the slaving class. She spares the lives of hostages, she opens the fighting pits for them, she gives up her body in marriage, and still they try to poison her to install Hizdhar as King. Mercy isn't a weakness, but the people who have a vested interest in slavery aren't going to stop just because you ask them nicely (like that garbage show GOT seems to think). She's got to use her dragons.

No, critiquing her failures isn't the same as defending slavery. But claiming that she never tried, and ignoring the odds stacked against her, is false. As for blaming her for Slavers Bay falling into chaos and suffering... First off, again, she isn't the only responsible actor with agency - I maintain that the fall of Astapor was pretty much out of her hands. And second, it ignores the massive scale of human suffering that already gripped slavers bay. The daily violence inflicted on slaves - the families torn apart, the lives destroyed, the children mutilated, the thousands of dead babies killed to initiate the Unsullied, the tortures and crucifixions and whippings and executions and rapes.

Ignoring that isn't that far off from defending slavery. Claiming that the violence that overthrew slavery is worse than the violence that is slavery isn't that far off from defending slavery. Should no one ever dare strike off a slaves chains just because they can't account for the violence that could come after? Is the crucifixion of child-murdering Slavers worse than the crucifixion of innocent children?

Or to bring up another literary scenario with more moral equivalency and ambiguity - was the Tenth plague upon the firstborns of Egypt worse than the mass culling of infant slaves? Who do you blame for the Ten Plagues of Egypt? Should Moses have left well enough alone?

#fandom nonsense #daenerys targaryen #asoiaf #valyrianscrolls #breaker of chains #daenerys defense squad #meereen #daenerys meta #dany meta #dany #dany defence squad #pro daenerys #pro daenerys targaryen #anti got

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