#Amphibia Critical

[spop-romanticizes-abuse]

Meaningless Suffering ≠ Consequences: An SPOP Rant Analysis

so one huge argument i've seen from SPOP fans, when it comes to Catra's redemption is that “she got tortured and mind controlled by Horde Prime. she almost died at his hands. therefore, she faced the consequences of her actions.”

now.. could this be considered a consequence of her actions? the important question here is: why did Catra get punished by Prime? for going against his rules and freeing Glimmer. she got punished for doing one good thing. this was the consequence of her doing something right. if anything, she would be more discouraged to do good in the future, because the first time she does something good, she almost gets murdered for it.

but i digress. i've seen this trope be used with quite a few characters in media. the other example of this i want to talk about is Marcy from Amphibia. (spoilers for Amphibia below)

in the s2 finale, Marcy is revealed to have stranded her friends Anne and Sasha on Amphibia on purpose, because she didn't want to be alone. while this wasn't as bad as any of the shit that Catra pulled, it was still a fucked up thing to do. Marcy deliberately took Anne and Sasha away from their home and their parents, for her own selfish reasons.

like Catra, Marcy also has abandonment issues. her parents had informed her that they had to move and Marcy was terrified at the idea of having to leave Anne and Sasha behind. but that was still not an excuse for what she did.

not long after her secret was exposed, Marcy gets stabbed by King Andrias while trying to escape Amphibia. she doesn't die, of course, it's still a kid's show.

but to make things worse, she gets possessed by the Core later on, which is shown to be an extremely painful and traumatizing process (which they barely touch upon later). and then they show in a flashback that Anne and Sasha used to ignore Marcy and make her feel lonely, when this was not touched upon earlier in the series. in fact, Anne was shown to be very caring and attentive to Marcy up until this episode.

at this point, it's clear that the writers are trying to make the viewers feel sorry for Marcy. if they keep adding reasons why she's so miserable and traumatized, maybe the viewers would forget what she did to Anne and Sasha. right?

there is a small scene in s3 where Sasha questions why she should forgive Marcy, but it is quickly fixed by Anne telling Sasha that she should forgive Marcy. there's also a moment of realization for Marcy but even that is done in such a cliché and lighthearted manner, where the severity of her actions aren't addressed. and that's it. Marcy is rescued, she apologizes, and is immediately forgiven.

but then again, like SPOP, the last season of Amphibia was trashfire. i refuse to believe that people genuinely liked that season, it was so badly written and ruined everything that was set up prior to it.

anyway, let's come back to SPOP. it's clear that the writers of SPOP were also trying to do the same thing. put poor catgirl through the wringer, have her almost die and come back to life and voila! she is absolved of all her crimes.

for those of you who are still not convinced, let me try to make a real world comparison. let's just say i'm someone who bullies or abuses people. one day while getting home from school/work, i get hit by a car. i get grievously injured and go through a lot of pain. heck, maybe it even leaves some kind of permanent disability or injury.

is that a punishment for my actions? you can call it karma, but let's be real, karma doesn't exist. it's just a coincidence. and you bet i'm not going to wake up in the hospital thinking “this must be my punishment for abusing people”. if i really am an abuser who has no remorse for my actions, a random accident isn't going to change my mind.

and that's what happened with Catra too. she didn't consider Horde Prime's torture as a consequence of her actions. if anything, she used that as an excuse to mistreat Adora and the others even more. it's clear that she pitied herself for what happened. and everyone else pitied her, including the audience.

imagine if the good redemption arcs were written this way. imagine if, instead of working through his issues and facing actual consequences of his actions, Zuko was just tortured and traumatized even more by Ozai, and the Gaang just forgave him because they felt bad for him. yeah, people wouldn't be praising his arc anymore. or they would, who knows. i know i wouldn't be praising his arc.

because this is not the way to redeem a villain. the only way to redeem a villain is to have them face consequences of their actions and work for forgiveness. to show them consistently trying to make up for what they did and trying to be a better person, not because they want to be forgiven or accepted by the heroes, but because it's the right thing to do.

#spop critical #spop salt #spop criticism #spop discourse #spop #she ra #anti catra #anti catradora #anti spop #anti c//a #antic//a #anticatra #anticatradora #anti amphibia #amphibia critical #amphibia salt #amphibia criticism #amphibia discourse #amphibia #long post #tw abuse #tw death

[funkmasterfuma]

The Owl House 🤝 Amphibia

Having third seasons that struggle at maintaining tension and developing characters outside of their main protagonist in a meaningful way.

#amphibia #amphibia critical #the owl house #toh critical #toh salt #Amphibia salt

[mdhwrites]

Thank you for defending Amphibia S3A!!! You don't know how many times I've had to read people saying that Anne should've had an angst arc like Luz did in TOH over what happened in True Colors. That kind of take completely ignores that a.) Anne is her own character who responds to things differently (by compartmentalizing and trying to fix what she can), b.) Amphibia was trying to preserve its essential Amphibia-ness and not become a dreary angst-fest, and c.) Luz's arc wasn't even good lol so why compare it to that? I think there are a couple story things that could've been streamlined in 3A but overall it is a perfectly good entry into Amphibia canon and it wasn't "filler" or "pointless" by any means. (P.S. I would love to hear your thoughts on Commander Anne since I also think that's a really strong episode!)🦎

Send me another ask about Commander Anne because that is one of the episode fragments in Amphibia actually dense enough for me to talk about on its own. For now, I'm actually carjacking this ask to talk about trauma reaction in fiction using Anne, Sasha, HOP POP and Luz with Hop Pop and Luz being the extremes you need to avoid and then talking about both where Anne falls and why she's so good.

Though with any discussion of this, I do actually just want to quickly mention that I did a whole teaching blog a good long while back about Fantasy Trauma and why Luz's just plain sucks. I'm not going to talk about the event here but more the reaction but I still think it's worth mentioning that fantasy trauma like what happens to these characters is a trope in and of itself.

Also, welcome Amphibia fans, I like to use asks as a way to teach and your show lets me be POSITIVE while teaching for once which is a nice change of pace... But let's start with the bad.

Or let's start with some defining. See whenever you have a major event happen in your story, there's a pendulum of reaction. On both ends of the pendulum, you have equally bad reactions to it but in different ways. Those ends where either:

A: You don't react at all. Despite the fact that the event should have had an effect on you, you're seeming to be mostly fine and yourself. It often can make the character come off as callous or stunted in some way if they just don't even seem to be needing to cope with it in someway. Stuff like Sprig focusing on being a part of the family and Polly focusing on Frobo stop them from quite getting to this extreme because they're more genuinely interacting with the new world they're in and their problems. Hop Pop is the problem one here but we'll get to it.

B: You ONLY react to the ONE event. The rest of the story and your character DON'T MATTER now. You are only your angst arc. This actually works well for VILLAINS because the single minded obsession and refusal of logic is actually usually useful for justifying them going to such extremes. The problem comes when a character should theoretically know better, the level of reaction is unwarranted or you can point out that they're just wangsting (whine/angsting) because they have sunshine and rainbows around them they're blatantly ignoring. This is Luz's side of the problem.

This is technically an Amphibia ask though so let's start with Hop Pop. For some very, very minor proof I'm not a contrarian: Hollywood Hop Pop is easily the worst half episode in S3A. There's something to be said about there being about two episodes before the mid-season finale that are kind of janky. The problem isn't just with Hollywood Hop Pop.

Hop Pop has a lot of internal issues with danger, change and worry. A new world should panic him in some way. This is actually the greatest sin of Hollywood Hop Pop because the lesson from that one feels at best like an over correction to... The majority of S2A's characterization of Hop Pop. Similarly goes to him just enjoying being a house guest. Even if yes, this is his adopted daughter, he should have an episode segment dedicated to being worried about the new world they're in, trying to protect Polly and Spring, etc. like that, especially since his old world just turned inside out. SOME sort of reaction would be warranted... And we don't get it.

Instead we get him being overly trusting and thus getting scammed, his stuff about making the Boonchuys hating him is good but it's entirely disconnected from the trauma you would expect of the character and then he honestly takes the BIGGEST risk of them all, even using his actual name instead of a codename like Sprig does for Spider Sprig.

It genuinely feels like he is treating coming here like a vacation, not helped by that explicitly being a part of one of his episode segments and that's bad.

So what's the good version of this side of the pendulum? Well, if this side represents underselling the reaction to trauma, the good version is subtlety and that's what we get with Anne and it's done really well. It mostly is in the first couple episodes in S3A when the wounds are most fresh which makes sense. As she processes it privately, she can return more and more to who she was.

The biggest thing here is that Anne is overloading herself. She is burning out from the second Andrias stabs Marcy. Not even once she's home, but even by the final trauma having just been overloaded. She's 13 after all. 15 if you want to go off of what seems to have been the original intent for her and the rumors that Disney forced the trio to be younger.

A 13 year old CAN handle death. They CAN'T handle seeing one of their BEST FRIENDS die and the other one likely doing so too, let alone right after she assumed her third best friend also died, even if he didn't. True Colors is a TIME for Anne. Anne is a very simple girl after all. Stakes like these are not what she is capable of even processing at that point. She's never seen anything that bad.

And her trying to recap and summarize it shows it EXPERTLY. Even trying to actually think about what just happened tires her out and has her constantly having to correct herself because she doesn't want to admit that not only is she powerless, it's also too much for her to handle on her own. And that's WITHOUT acknowledging the high probability of her friends being dead, something that was on her mind since her reaction to seeing Sasha is disbelief/relief that she's ALIVE.

Then there's the other elements where Anne is the one pushing research the hardest, the fact that she's brushing other things off to find answers that will make her less powerless, her protectiveness of those around her and then yeah, the one episode segment that has her burnt out and dead tired because she's working herself to the bone.

And this is all in character with Anne's arc. She's grown to do things. To want to help. To not just coast through life and just as she was getting used to the idea of that... She now can't do anything. So we see her doing what she can which is just not a lot.

Alright, let's move on to the other side of the pendulum though. I often talk about Luz in the second half of The Owl House as "In her angst arc" because that's how it feels. She may as well have put on a dark brown hoodie, flattened her hair and declared everything sucked. None of her optimism, none of her enthusiasm, little of her care and complete distrust of EVERYONE.

OH WAIT THEY DID THAT! They made her as close to her BETA design for S3 Ep1 as possible to finish out that miserable attitude for her. And I'm not going to say all of it is unwarranted. Just like Hop Pop caring about being a good house guest is in character, Luz getting more serious to match the stakes of the show is theoretically a good thing. It needed more of a real transition (Hi Commander Anne as a good example of this) but there is a nugget of a good concept in it.

One that's stabbed repeatedly by never letting it end or be affected by anything. Stuff she'll say to Eda and King she will act like will kill her if she tells literally anyone else no matter how much more justified it is for her to be honest to them, she CONSTANTLY lies to the point where she breaks her word several times and part of why Amity theoretically likes her is just GONE and then we get the theoretical conclusion to it which is "I want to be understood."

When the fuck haven't you been? This is the true crime of this side of the pendulum. Part of the reaction requires the character to entirely forget and actively ignore the actions around her. Those friends who have constantly forgiven you and backed you up? Didn't understand. That supposed found family who constantly told you you weren't at fault and to take care of yourself? Didn't understand. Your mom, who supported your interested until you backed her into a corner by accidentally assaulting people, including your principal, with wild animals? Never. Understood. You.

And even then, she still doesn't break out of it after the first TWO times in S3 where she is forgiven and she makes a statement about moving on. She just throws a dreamstate pity party and doubts herself until GOD tells her she has never done anything wrong in her life.

It's too long, the resolutions are too contrite or eye rolling for the amount of time and pain spent with it and they also rarely have anything to actually do with the trauma itself. It feels like the character is reacting to something BAD rather than something SPECIFIC which robs it of its bite just as badly as not reacting to it at all. And that's if it even feels like the character and Luz in the second half of TOH, especially S3, just doesn't feel like Luz. Period.

You know who does feel like herself? Sasha. By the time S3B comes around, she's had to deal with too much to really still be dealing with the trauma (and she still is to some extent with her constantly worrying about her relationship with Anne, obsession with second chances, etc. like that but that's more rounding out her arc to me) so it's really just her one segment in S3A that needs to be examined.

Except we actually have to roll back first. All the way back to Reunion. Sasha's reaction to this all starts with the end of Reunion. That moment when, just for a second, she decides Anne is worth more than herself. That "maybe you'd be better off without me," and letting go. S2 handles the fact that Sasha dying actually made a REALLY bad inner conflict for her, let alone once news of Marcy being fine without her too got to her, but that's the fun of character arcs. They SHOULDN'T be a smooth curve. *coughs at Amity and Hunter*

Keeping on track though, we have Sasha not only facing the end of her at her most powerful but also the potential end of her friendships. She betrayed Anne again and while they fought together, that was for survival, where are they now? Worse yet, Marcy almost died in front of her and she was POWERLESS. All that talk of trying to do things so they all could be happy, that she knew best... It was all ash.

So she at first doesn't know what she's doing. She emotional and ready to lash out but she doesn't know what her target is. She just knows part of it is her fault and unlike in S2, she can't ignore it now. It haunts her until Anne shows Sasha what having been a good friend could have gotten her. What they could have been.

And so now, it's time to make good on her word. To become a protector and try to see a bit more in people than she assumes. This is ALL a reaction to True Colors primarily. It is addressing it all VERY bluntly minus Marcy's lie (I have complicated feelings on Marcy at this point) but it's still working within the frame of the character. This is still Sasha and we know enough about her to genuinely follow her train of thought while also getting to enjoy the character we have grown attached to. She isn't gone... But she's changing and if this side of the pendulum represents replacement as its bad extreme, change and introspection like what Sasha goes through is the good medium ground.

I want to finish this by saying that you CAN use the extremes well. Someone reacting to a teammate's death with indifference can genuinely turn a character who seemed a little cold to being seen as callous or like they believe the ends justify the means, no matter the sacrifice. Someone letting an event consume them can actually be a great start to an arc where the point is to criticize their reaction, instead of trying to invoke sympathy through it. That they are going too far and letting this be too much of who they and they need to find balance. They need to properly introspect. These are not hard rules by any means but there is a spectrum. A pendulum.

And as always, the best thing a writer can do is recognize where on that pendulum they're writing and use it as best as they can.

======+++++======

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#the owl house criticism #toh critical #luz #amphibia critical #anne boonchuy #sasha waybright #hop pop plantar

[fandom-discussions-with-avery]

Honestly in Amphibia Season 3 still kinda irks me to this day Mostly cause I WISHED WE’D get more Sasha episodes in the first half mostly cause she’s my favorite character of the trio (and comfort character XD) that after Turning Point

I know Anne and the Planters are the main characters but GOD Marcy and Sasha’s characters could’ve had more time in the spotlight to shine especially for Sasha because in my opinion Amphibia feels like there’s things left unsaid.

I fully agree with you. We should've had more time with Sasha growing as a person before Anne returned. For me she was the most interesting character from the trio, and it would be great to see her at her own, dealing with all that she've done, knowing that maybe she stucks in Amphibia for forever, that one of her friends is most likely dead and another is gone away with no guarantee to return.

But at least Sasha had several episodes dedicated to show how she changed and how it wasn't really easy for her. Marcy, in contrast, wasn't a character in season 3 at all. She was in a coma (i think so?), then almost immediately got possessed until the last few episodes, so her arc was fully completed too fast.

I still think that Amphibia has much more satisfying final than toh (and spop), because everyone still got right conclusions to their arcs, even if the process wasn't that good, but with the time Amphibia had, we could've got a bit better result.

#amphibia critical #sasha waybright #marcy wu #I love Amphibia much more than toh #but it obviously has many flaws as well

[hughjidiot]

So, some people in the Amphibia fandom claim that Marcy being in a coma and possessed for most of season three was necessary to "show her the consequences of her actions."

Here's my rebuttal to that line of thought: wouldn't it have made more sense to have Marcy be involved in the plot so she can actually, you know, see the consequences of her actions?

Marcy didn't get to actually see the destruction Andrias reaped upon Amphibia because she helped him get the fully charged Calamity Box. Nor did she actually face Anne and Sasha being upset with her beyond what happened in True Colors; all she did was get yelled at by a holographic illusion of the two of them, and then was instantly forgiven by the real Anne and Sasha upon being rescued.

Compare and contrast Sasha, who actually had to fight alongside the frogs she spent almost two whole seasons disliking. Then when Anne returned to Amphibia things weren't instantly okay between them; Anne still had lingering feelings of doubt after Sasha's betrayals and general behavior before Amphibia, and the two of them had to work through their issues for the sake of reparing their friendship.

This is why I respectfully disagree with people who say Marcy needed to spend season three offscreen as part of her character arc. Because Sasha didn't, so why couldn't Marcy?

#hugh jidiot rambles #amphibia #marcy wu #amphibia character analysis #amphibia critical

[hikaaa-bi]

amphibia had the main characters do the most horrendous shit imaginable and the end of the episodes were just like "oh you little goober it's okay we all make mistakes <3"

#like did we really forget about hop pop using a weird fungus to turn anne sprig and polly into mind controlled zombies #so that they won't disturb him while working?? #or anne thawing sprig when they were supposed to be hibernating during winter just so she could hang out with him? #like i get slapstick comedy but amphibia took it too far sometimes #the entire series was just a bunch of characters doing the most heinous shit and never learning from their mistakes #amphibia salt #amphibia criticism #amphibia discourse #amphibia critical #amphibia #hop pop

[metalinjector95]

Yet here I am venting about how Marcy and Sasha’s parents not being revealed in the ACTUAL SHOW will always be a hurtful flaw to me

Yes I know we have Marcy’s Journal to cover the answer on what they look like and somewhat context on them (Marcy’s dad and Sasha’s divorce parents) but really hoping that the new content being released in November will help give us even a little more depth on the Wu’s and the Waybright’s.

Am I wrong for asking such a thing?

#amphibia critical #amphibia season 3a #amphibia season 3b #marcy wu #sasha waybright

[thetimelordbatgirl]

Its weird that despite the plantars being presented as annes first true friends, they can be rather toxic to her at times

I mean, are we just gonna ignore children of the spores? Hop pop brainwashed his grandkids! For a model boat! But since he’s supposed to be annes healthy friendship, the show just sweeps it under the rug.

And then there’s season 3a, where the plantars reduce anne to their babysitter, dump all of the work getting them back home, and act like sociopaths by goofy off, not caring that all of their friends are in danger. If sasha and marcy did this, it would be seen as toxic, but since its the plantars, its fine.

This is why i vastly prefer the trios relationship. Because at least they’re meant to be toxic, and work through there issues. The plantars just get excused for there bad behavior, simply because the show needs them to be “annes first true friends”

Its been so long for me and Amphibia that I forgot about 'Children Of The Spores' existence, but after looking up the episode to refresh my memory...dear god, is a summary of my feelings. It truly earns a spot on a list I call, 'episodes where the adults act shitty to the kids but its waved away somehow cause the kids misbehaved', because look, are the kids annoying in this episode? Yeah, a little. But uh, to straight up knowingly brainwash them so they do as Hop Pop says just so he can work on a model boat??? What the fuck??? Somehow out-doing Abuela from Cassagrandes here with bad adult figure moments. And don't get me started on Season 3A, that filler filled mess basically stalled for as long as it could and as a result, messed up the Planter's writing and made them into kids in need of babysitting that stress Anne out at times.

I mean, Sasha may at least stand a better chance if she did do some of this shit to Anne, because S3B Anne just, forgives Sasha out of nowhere basically and acts chill with her, but if it was Marcy, yeah she'd be damned, given how Anne and Sasha still talk about her even when going to rescue her. Honestly ngl, I always assumed show went about the Planters being Anne's found family then first true friends, but either way, show definitely ignored they also had issues with how they treated Anne at times.

#amphibia critical #like uh only marcy would be truly damned #since despite anne forgiving sasha and sasha literally having worked her way to being a better person #they still like 'oh but should we forgive marcy?' like wha #and given how anne is chill with the planters despite what they've done...

[milkywaydrinker]

Having watched Amphibia and thought it over, I guess I can understand why some viewers interpret Marcy's arc as having unfortunate implications regarding her parents, even if I personally don't see her parents as abusive.

Judging by Braly's statements regarding Marcy's father, the job he took that required his family to move out of state was a big 'opportunity' for him. From the way Braly worded it, Mr. Wu took the job not out of necessity, but because he wanted to, which can easily come across as selfish and uncaring, especially since Marcy's house in L.A. already looked pretty well-off.

With that in mind, I can understand why some would object to Amphibia answering this situation with 'Well, things change and it's healthier to accept it, for good or ill, rather than fight it.' In response, some people are like 'Hold up, why are you just ignoring the way Marcy's dad is acting? Surely the right thing to do is have Marcy's dad realize he never needed this job, appreciate what he already has, and start putting what his daughter wants ahead of his own wants.'

Now, a route like that would obviously clash with a story that desires to end with Marcy accepting the move. But looking back on things, I think one of the biggest reasons it's a shame we don't see Sasha or Marcy's parents is that we never get to see how Marcy's dad viewed his own choices. We see Marcy's reaction to it, but we never get to see his side of things.

I mean, what if Mr. Wu thought he was doing a good thing for his family by taking a job he didn't necessarily need? What if he understood he already lived a pretty good life, but believed that, if there was a chance for him to provide an even better life for his wife and daughter, he should take it?

I think there were ways to explore this that didn't make a villain out of the man and still end with Marcy moving. For example; Mr. Wu could learn it's not inherently wrong to desire more for yourself; what's wrong is ignoring/forgetting the feelings of those you love. Meanwhile, Marcy could learn the same lesson as in canon, with the added understanding that her dad, while making mistakes, genuinely thought he was doing good by her by taking the job. Knowing that, as well as her father apologizing, combined with her accepting that distance and time won't mean she loses Anne or Sasha's friendship, makes her more comfortable going ahead with the move. Mr. Wu could still take the job with Marcy's blessing, while promising to do better by her and make a greater effort to understand her better.

Think there was a missed opportunity for a more nuanced story here, or am I looking too deeply into things?

Sorry for the late reply! I think you're very much onto something here.

As someone whose parents decided to move just like so, this specific aspect of Marcy's story bothered me.

With enough time and perspective, as an adult living on my own, I grew to understand why they decided to do so. Despite that, moving as a neurodivergent child was a really traumatic experience for me. I had great friends in my first school, I had a group of peers who had the same hobbies as me and understood me. After the move, it took me many years (until high school) to get something similar again.

My parents also realized how much this hurt me, and while they couldn't undo the move, they did everything to help me through this time and after a few years apologized to me for their decision.

Showing what Marcy's relationship with their parents looked like, would've helped with actually fleshing out the emotional impact of the story.

(Same with Sasha but that is a whole another can of worms)

In the show, the narrative fails at making its points. It's both pro and anti authoritarian. It's trying to play the "respect your culture, respect your parents, be a good child" card and then calls it all off with adding Andrias and his backstory into the mix. It's not thematically coherent. I love children's media but it requires a delicate balance. It's an art of its own, to make a story that's both thematically cohesive and engaging without being overly scholastic.

Marcy does what she does for a good and valid reason. Sasha and Anne are her support network, people who tolerate her quirks and often indulge her even if they aren't even half as invested in her hobbies as she is. Tearing her out of her safe environment is cruel and hinted to be unnecessary. It's a "Parents know what's best for you so don't fight their decisions" moment. Showing something that would balance it out would have made it less harsh and seemingly cruel.

#amphibia critical #long post #ask #we dont even get to see a lot of her perspective at all but shes a character that many relate to for a good reason #her story feels lackluster because they never added the necessary dimensions to it that would make it pop more

[rainestormes]

god I hate sasha being seen as good representation. as if the representantion isn't a tiny bi flag sticker that you'll miss if you even think about blinking. as if the ‘stay tuned’ on her sexuality doesn't strike anyone else as queerbaiting. as if amphibia doesn't have a disgusting homophobic caricature in it. great rep y'all

#srs WHY don't more ppl acknowledge the bs with mr x? #ohhhhhhh flamboyant gay man hunts down little children #and his femininity is always the butt of the joke #“all the fbi agents wear black and are stoic but MR X is loud and colorful and flirty! isn't it funny 7 yos watching ths?” #disney using that one shot of sasha's bi sticker in a pride post is rlly fitting considering it's the only time her sexuality is addressed #and c'mon the crew knew how big of a ship sashannarcy is #they knew what saying ’stay tuned’ on one of their sexualities would get ppl excited #amphibia critical #sol rambles #btw not upset that sashannarcy ISN't canon. I ship it but the show's about their friendship firsy and foremost #and it doesn't have to be anything else #the romance aspects can stay in the fandom for allI care #but come tf on mr braly

[drew-dopamine]

The amphibia finale made thematic sense but not narrative sense, and even then it didn’t really stick the themes

#Amphibia #does this make any sense idk #Drew posts #amphibia critical

[spop-romanticizes-abuse]

The fact that Mabel (Gravity Falls) and Marcy and Sasha (Amphibia) get more hate than Catra is crazy. The aforementioned three definitely did bad things, but they actually FELT REMORSE, REALIZED THEY WERE WRONG, AND STROVE TO FIX THINGS.

i know mabel gets a lot of hate (and most of it is definitely undeserved) but i've only mostly seen people loving marcy and sasha? maybe i'm in the wrong side of the fandom but i've definitely only seen praise for these two, even though marcy's switch from bad to good was too sudden and sasha's redemption arc happened completely offscreen.

of course, they're not as bad as catra and at least they actually change in the end, but i still found their arcs to be pretty unsatisfactory. marcy was a really compelling character in s2 but then the writers decided to woobify her for the entire third season, adding more and more reasons why we, the audience, should sympathize with her.

i would have liked to see them explore her moral greyness more but i feel like the writers made the same mistake that spop writers did with catra. instead of just giving us a proper redemption arc, they put marcy through hellish torture because apparently suffering = redemption. then she's rescued and she just apologizes once and everything is solved. idk, there was a lot of potential with marcy's character that was unutilized.

sasha's character was handled a tiny bit better but it was still a lazy choice to not show her redemption arc at all. she does one good thing, then we cut to anne and the plantars, and when they return to amphibia, sasha is suddenly a hero and everyone has forgiven her already. it just felt off to me but these two characters are definitely still better than catra, which is honestly not a huge achievement, the bar is in the earth's core at this point.

#spop critical #spop salt #spop criticism #spop discourse #spop #she ra #anti spop #amphibia criticism #amphibia critical #anti amphibia #amphibia discourse #amphibia #sasha waybright #marcy wu #also sasha is NOT good bi representation sorry

[mdhwrites]

Do Themes Make a Story Good? Featuring TOH and Amphibia

I've tried talking about this subject a few times and never found a good angle for it. Last night, a thought wormed into my brain about the fact that I make a lot of posts defending the thematic strengths of Amphibia, how those themes help justify some of its writing choices and even talk about concepts and the like that people claim are not in the show that are actually represented. Contrasted with my blogs on The Owl House where I usually talk about its themes to highlight poor execution on them or how I disagree with them existing, a fear hit me.

Do I consider Amphibia's themes more valid because I like the show more?

The extremely short and reductive version of this is "to some extent yes." That doesn't get into WHY for this though. After all, one's enjoyment of a piece shouldn't matter for a theme. Not all themes are fun or pleasant and so expecting a comfortable experience with them isn't fair. It limits the sort of storytelling you're capable of.

The problem is that this extends to ALL media. What commonly determines if a piece is genuinely good or not is if it was engaging, not if it was fun or enjoyable. A horror fan and an action fan might both call their movies a blast but the sort of engagement they had is vastly different. One is loving the use of scares, tension, etc. like that while the other may have just enjoyed a popcorn flick with explosions, big set pieces and silly violence but neither opinion is bad because they were both properly engaged by the points of the movie.

Themes are interesting because we often talk about them as engaging but I think this is actually putting the cart before the horse. We pick up on these themes because the work itself is engaging. After all, a textbook on mental health can have a theme of dealing with trauma but we don't frame it that way because, you know... It's a textbook. It's dry. Conversely, an author might tell you that their work was about something but if it was incoherent garbage, then who cares what it had to say because you didn't like it in the first place to dig into every piece of symbolism that supposedly has something to say about the theme the author claims.

So what does this have to do with Amphibia and The Owl House? Well, their ways of dealing with theme are kind of fascinating and indicative of how they are built as shows and play into why I find one's themes great while the other is lacking. I'll try to illustrate with two metaphors: Amphibia's theming is like putting away pennies for a fundraiser to make a park for the community. Everyone pitches in but they pitch in in small ways and no one is able to just dumb a giant wad of cash in. They're small drops that build and build until one day you go to put a penny in and are pleasantly surprised to find that hey, you guys are making some real progress! You might not make the goal you had but this is impressive as is! Next week it's a little higher and higher until the jar is gone, only for the organizer to come out to cheer about how they made it and finally revealing the park, but the sum of it all is so much more than you could have expected from mere pennies, especially in all the small details! However, even if you only glance at it, it still looks complete, fun and satisfying.

The Owl House's theming is much more like a college essay that ends up getting a C. It starts with a really strong thesis to their paper and has a compelling starting argument that implies a lot of knowledge. However, they have fifty pages to fill and the student realizes by page ten, they're running short. So they first start pulling in elements that don't conflict immediately but are still a little strange to include. Then it includes a couple strange tangents and personal anecdotes that don't seem to make a lot of sense and are losing the thread faster and faster. By the end, the tricks to achieve word count are starting to become blatant, especially as they spend so much time repeating the same things as if they were new information or something unique but it's actually well worn. All of it is useless to their argument and even actively harming it, let alone when paired with all the rest. Structurally it works and it finished with enough words but it comes back with the thesis statement circled multiple times and the question "Wasn't this the point?" under it, all in red.

These two approaches have knock on effects though. Amphibia doesn't ask anything of the viewer but to buy in slightly. In return, you are invited to just enjoy the characters and its world. It doesn't have anything to prove and doesn't need to be loud in its messaging and so the story is allowed to function simply on a basic level and be enjoyable on its own. It can tell a simple story with a clear moral because it knows that the moral is playing a part to the larger whole and doesn't care about if everyone knows how grand its scope because the goal of enriching everyone will be reached no matter what. This is how you get an entire season dedicated to Anne's character development that only bothers to actually say that was the goal at the end of the season when the option to be selfish once more and cut off community, to reject change and go back to what is comfortable, comes in the form of Sasha. And heck, that is actually one of the most overt times Amphibia brings attention to its storytelling/theming but only AFTER earning it.

The Owl House meanwhile has something to prove but neither the knowledge or focus to do so but it's stated it so now it has to earn it. As such, anything that crosses its desk that is even tangentially related to its themes gets pushed in so that it can claim to be thoroughly exploring the topic, even if previous examples or the like actively conflict with the new example. As an example, I've seen people really praise The First Day for tackling how the traditional school system doesn't accommodate people or work for all learning types. With TOH's early statement of "Us weirdos gotta stick together!" and all that implies, this is actually a great topic for it to tackle. However, because its being grafted onto this thesis, the supporting evidence hasn't been properly built up and so you have people claiming they should be allowed to do school differently... By literally breaking the law in a way that is met with the DEATH PENALTY. It's technically on topic but it's sloppy and loses all of its bite because you're left more confused than properly satisfied.

This causes a weird issue where you can engage with Amphibia only on the surface level, never take in its themes, and still get a deep enjoyment from it because the basic storytelling makes sense, follows its own internal logic and has satisfying payoffs because of every penny contributed to making the whole thing works. You don't need more than Anne's relationships with others to be able to cheer in joy at the "They're not Amphibia's greatest treasure" moment because those relationships are engaging on their own. Because of this engagement and satisfaction though, you're more incentivized to want to actually take a closer look at what the whole picture was and to enjoy the minor details, even if you didn't have to, like how the whole show always pushed seeing selfish things that could oppress others as worthless when compared to the selfless and communal which is part of the thematic punch of the greatest treasure moment.

Meanwhile, The Owl House paradoxically is hard to enjoy as a basic story due to all the concessions to theme while the choices of the story also actively make the theming worse, making only the absolute most surface level read the one that can be satisfying because only then can it desperately claiming that everything had a point actually be believed. Otherwise, the broken seams that are barely keeping the whole thing together start to show itself until it entirely unravels at the end because it cannot tie them all back together. The epitomy of this is how Luz becomes a chosen one, breaking some early theming, due to a power up she only gets after the THIRD time that she theoretically resolves the same inner conflict in THREE EPISODES, muddling any of the thematic payoffs for any of the three times the themes were meant to climax. The best the show can hope for is that the teacher will accept their excuses for why it's so incoherent, despite the fact that even as early as S1B (When The First Day I referenced earlier was) the flaws in the show's ability to actually meet the assignment were clear.

This is why I personally argue that you can have a good story without themes but you can't have good themes without a good story. If the work doesn't support them then the themes will more often than not get in the way and audiences won't care they were there in the first place. Admittedly, this might be due to my own writing method where I usually stumble my way into a theme that stems from simply trying to make the base concept the best way I can. After all, almost every story will have a theme of some sort but if you go in with the goal of making a statement, well...

You better know what you're talking about and how to present it or you'll become more repetitive and rambly than this blog.

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#the owl house criticism #toh critical #toh #amphibia #the owl house #Amphibia critical

[violetgarlends]

I just hate that I’ve seen people who are more willing to forgive andrias then Sasha

#amphibia critical #Amphibia crit #anti andrias #anti Amphibia #king andrias #this is also mostly on the subreddit for context #but like she’s 13 #she’s a kid #and he’s thousands of years old

[hughjidiot]

Yeah another of these cuz why not?

#amphibia #amphibia meme #amphibia shitpost #marcy wu #amphibia critical

[hikaaa-bi]

(rant ahead, proceed at your own risk)

honestly though, i do not like it when a show has no problem putting characters through trauma but doesn't want to address it afterwards. especially worse when they keep dogpiling trauma onto one specific character and then just forgets all about it. oh yay, the world is saved and this character is alright now, i guess.

exhibit A: Marcy from Amphibia. she was already having issues with leaving her friends and trying to combat that with escapism. she got reasonably rejected by her friends when they realized she tricked them. she got backstabbed by the king, both metaphorically and literally. the stab scene literally needed a content warning. she gets put on life support for a while and then gets turned into a weapon. the VA did a really good job with the screaming that it really made us think Marcy was going to at least have scars later. if they went all out, she'd probably be paralyzed or disabled for a while. if not, the least they could do is have her being weak and unable to move too much or fight.

but guess what? her friends rescue her from the core and after a little bit of crying and apologizing, girlie is a-okay. no visible scars, no physical injuries, not even a little bodyache. she jumps up immediately and is fighting the enemy in her super saiyan form moments after.

and do we even have to talk about the emotional and psychological trauma? nope. Marcy is saved now, that's all that matters. apart from a little bit of character growth, this girl is not affected by what she went through one bit.

don't forget that right after seeing Marcy get stabbed and presumably killed, Anne goes back to earth, has exactly 1 second of crisis and then completely forgets about her friend. a lot of the viewers argued that Anne was just repressing her feelings and trying to act happy. if this is true, the writers should show it. just having her act happy and have fun at grocery stores and museums doesn't really send the point across. you start to wonder whether the character got amnesia or if the writers have it.

The Owl House temporarily succeeded in showing a happy-go-lucky character repressing their feelings a.k.a Luz in s2b. we clearly see Luz looking anxious or sad when she's alone or when no one is looking. you see her panicking and trying to overcompensate with jokes, when she's actually not feeling okay. it's done really well in both animation and voice acting.

exhibit B: Hunter from The Owl House. now TOH wasn't overall as bad at showing emotional impact and trauma as Amphibia was. it had its fair share of tears and panic attacks. we see multiple characters very clearly experiencing the aftereffects of traumatic events they went through - King, Eda, Luz, Amity, Hunter. the only problem is that these arcs aren't really resolved well.

Hunter being the most popular example. like Marcy, Hunter was someone who was just given trauma after trauma to deal with. he was a child soldier, raised by his abusive "uncle" who was also the emperor. he was brainwashed into doing whatever his uncle wants him to, with the golden child complex tacked onto him. he is already in a very fragile position at this point, accepting his death and digging his grave when he fears that he's about to disappoint his uncle. he later finds out that he was a clone of said uncle's brother and that there were thousands before him, disposed of easily when they turned against the emperor. he has to fight his uncle in the finale, where said uncle tries to manipulate him again. after getting stranded in the human realm, his uncle later possesses his body, almost killing him in the process. oh, and his best friend actually gets killed.

and the aftereffects? TOH wasn't as avoidant as Amphibia. they did show Hunter having multiple panic attacks, identity crises after leaving the emperor's coven and very obvious fear and negative impacts of abuse.

but the whole grimwalker thing seems to be not taken as seriously as it should have been. Hunter is worried about his friends knowing that he is a clone, rather than about being a clone. i mean, in a world where grimwalkers aren't implied to be a common thing, surely it must be very existentially shocking and confusing to suddenly learn that you're not you, right? i mean, if i learned that i was a clone of someone else, i know the first thing i would think of wouldn't be about how my friends would take it. because i havent had the time to process it myself.

like i get it, these are Hunter's first friends and he doesn't want to lose them, yada yada. but it's still a bit strange to address it this way.

the main problem i have with Hunter's arc is that he never gets his closure with Belos. after Belos possesses his body and kills Flapjack, Hunter tells the others that they have to find and defeat Belos in order to avenge Flapjack. he is clearly distressed and angry. but then the story suddenly seems to forget about his trauma and focuses on Willow's issues instead and just handwaves the whole revenge thing aside.

Hunter did not have to be part of the final fight against Belos. but he needed some closure after everything that had happened. i mentioned this in a previous post but remember when Zuko was able to confront his dad, call Ozai out on all the shit he did and loudly reclaim his destiny? Zuko was allowed to face Ozai and say "I'm not going to be who you want me to be. you are a horrible person who abused me all my life and I'm finally cutting myself free from your influence, and I'm going to right all the wrongs that you made." this was such a powerful moment and Hunter deserved something akin to it too.

but in the end, Hunter isn't even at the scene where Belos dies. Luz, King, Eda and Raine are. and sure, all of these characters were affected by Belos's actions one way or another, but Hunter was the one who was most deeply impacted by Belos. and he never got his closure, he just.. had to move on. it was just such a disappointing end to his arc because he was a character that had so much potential, but they pushed his entire arc and development aside, so that huntlow can happen. yes, i dislike huntlow, it's a very forced and poorly written ship that sabotages the personality of both these characters.

anyway, yeah. either take time to address your character's trauma or don't give them trauma at all. believe it or not, not everyone goes through absolute life-shattering trauma and pain. people deal with problems, sure, but if you can't write about trauma well, please don't.

#amphibia #amphibia critical #amphibia discourse #amphibia salt #amphibia criticism #marcy #anne #toh criticism #toh critical #toh discourse #toh salt #hunter #willow #luz #writing #writing problems #bad writing