#westerosi succession

[horizon-verizon]

Cersei vs Rhaenyra's Children: The Political & Personal Implications of Their Appearances & Existences

[REDO bc previous wasn't written well enough]

Aside from THIS and THIS showing how negligible & changeable the effects and meaning of "bastardry" was in the real world and Westeros (very important posts)...

Despite the argument that Rhaenyra's cheating doesn't equal modern-day cheating, the flavor of feudal monarchist misogyny against female agency, and how Rhaenyra actually didn't have that many options of a safe father for her necessary heirs (scroll down to section D, parts 3-5), there are still some who argue that she should have chosen someone who looks like Laenor or like her, sometimes using Cercei' 's situation with her own kids and Robert to say "At ThE eNd Of ThE dAy", Rhaenyra's kids are bastards.

No, neither set are bastards.

Neither set were ever declared or "acknowledged" as bastards. Robert probably would have had he bene informed, but bc he died before then, Cersei's kids are not officially bastards…which is what is required to have them "legally" known as bastards. Because bastardry has always been more of a legal question in its nature than a biological fact of nature. Of course, we know that Rhaenyra's kids aren't Laenor's biologically; Ned deuced that Cersei's weren't Robert's biologically. And medieval customs put the social-legal identification of "bastard" based on the institution of marriage and its compulsions on women and their reproductive labor claimed by the men "licensed" to own them. Which is why when we say that neither Cersei's nor Rhaenyra's kids are "bastards", it is true because the role of bastardry is to attempt to reclaim the product of reproductive labor…and Viserys/Corlys/Laenor/Robert have already done that. To protest about how Robert didn't know about his kids not being his kids is really to protest how he didn't not get the products of Cersei's reproductive labor the in the objectifying business of labor intrinsic in this feudal society. Whereas Viserys/Laenor/Corlys accepted the products of Rhaenyra's reproductive labor.

They both "get away" with something, with being revealed & exposed as having had extramarital sex (not "affairs", bc Rhaenyra didn't have an affair, she and Laenor had and agreement!)...but because they do not share the same positions nor have the same sort of people around them, their kids therefore are not in the same boats nor do not share similar sociopolitical positions. And yes, if the parentage of their kids get exposed, there are possible, terrible consequences. But they will not be treated the same.

Sometimes people argue that Cersei had even more success in passing off her kids than Rhaenyra bc "at least" they look like her...even this is negliable and reductive.

A) Really, the Prime Reason, but whatever, this is a Master Post

Rhaenyra is the heir. All her kids have DIRECT claim to the Iron throne through her. Not Laenor, not Daemon, not Harwin...RHAENYRA!

Cersei's children "should" have had claim to the throne from their father Robert because Cersei has no claim AT ALL to the Iron throne bc she's not a Baratheon. Indirect nor Direct.

["direct" refers to a vertical lineage (mom and grandparent were heirs or the monarchs); "indirect" would be like your cousin or uncle being the heir or monarch]

And adding onto this, Viserys, the MONARCH, ABSOLUTELY knows those children are biologically Laenor's Laenor knows. Corlys knows. Yet all three accept those kids as their heirs/relations and thus also place them as their respective heirs for their respective seats. (This is an example of how lords are far more interested in making sure that their singular, sovereign privilege to decide things for their house and reducing the chances of dissenters than they are in seeing a possible claimaint question them or challenge them/their heirs for power, whether they have claim or not. that the oaths that any perosn makes to them are honored and in that way they can also be assured to have the loyalties of those making those oaths. Rhaenyra's claim had other implications and stakes for the lords than her being a woman! Hence why most of Westeros pledged and fought for Rhaenyra!!!--thought from rhaenin-time here on Tumblr)

As for "but they were never publicly recognized or acknowledged as bastards for them to be openly legitimized", only the monarch can declare any legitimizations -> there has never been a time when a noble/royal woman--who did not rule a house or the realm in her own right nor was declared as an heir--birthing a bastard has had that bastard legitimized except for Daemon Blackfyre. Daena was not a Queen regnant nor ever the heir. She was slotted to be the Queen Consort, like Cersei became. Rhaenyra does not share this position, she was the heir and if you are wondering why this matters, you have not read my previous paragraphs correctly or at all.

In acknowledgements--when "the biological father of a bastard may...bring him formally into his house"--it is always been the father doing the customary acknowledgement! Why? Because women who have extramarital sex, unlike men, usually don't given keep the right to marry bc she's "ruined", "unchaste", or-and "disobedient" and "unfaithful", much less be considered an autonomous claimant to anything. A person who is forever considered more a dependent than an agent in their own society cannot have the same abilities as an agent unless they are like Rhaenyra...and even then the gender roles are so strong as to make exceptions for someone like Rhaenyra. Since to be a woman = "obedience" to a male/male adjacent force/entity.

Daemon Blackfyre's father, Aegon IV, was not only royal-noble himself, he was the King (Aegon IV). If Daena had Daemon by a noble nonroyal, or a peasant man, her son would never have been legitimized even with her acknowledging him bc she had already been politically subordinated by Baelor, the Dance, etc. so as to not have political allies at court/beyond and be even less considered as the "safe" enough". Even if she had been older than Aegon IV. Any child she had/Daemon's claim to the throne would be considered weaker than any child by Aegon IV, bastard or not. Which is a huge reason why she went for Aegon IV of all people when she escaped!!!! Besides the fact that it would have been beyond obvious that Naerys was not at all his type and he would have not tried to hide that, she not only wanted to express her defiance and autonomy for her being locked up, she wanted her own blood claim (the political power she had left) to really mean something after Baelor's naked attempts to diminish it. By being the mother to a child who could reasonably compete with any of Aegon's even just in theory, she in turn "restores" the value and meaning of her own blood/power. Again, what mattered is that her kid(s) is also another Targ's, bastard or not.

There is no agnatic primogeniture in Westeros except maybe in the North (girls are not heirs or monarch no matter what). Except Dorne, where there is absolute primogeniture--any firstborn, male or female--can become the heir/ruler--Westeros has always done male-preferred primogeniture. Men have chosen female heirs or rulers, have been lead by women. Look them up in A World of Ice and Fire.

Men have been the final authority or privileged decider of the two genders precisely because they were the ones who usually had the power to do so. There is no written and consistent "law", only traditions and customs. So yes they have had the only practical authority to "acknowledge".

Therefore on the issue of Rhaenyra's kids having strong claim...yes they do, because Rhaenyra is in a similar[not same] position of every lord, male noble, and male heir: she is the "decider" of her house. Daemon was not the one to make final decisions of Dragonstone when they married, that was all Rhaenyra!

Whereas Cersei's kids do not in the purest technical sense because she has no claim at all to the throne by blood and Westeros is not 17th-18thth centuries Russia where a empress consort could become empress regnant through her marriage alone.

And obviously, since Rhaenyra is the next head and her firstborn is Jace and we don't see her choose any heirs apart from him...Jace is her legitimate heir.

B) Cersei's reason for choosing Jaime or not the same for why Rhaenyra chose Harwin to be the father of hers.

We could argue all day that genetics gives us children who could inherit "50-50" of their parents' features or something like that, but:

ASoIaF genetics is weirder than real genetics.

The Baratheons (even when marrying Lannisters & other houses) tend to yield dark-haired kids, & yet Cersei's 3 kids are all blonde with no Baratheon gray eyes...it's like people forgot the information Ned used to prove that she was fucking Jaime and was passing her kids off as Robert's in the first place, but maybe some people who argue this simply hadn't read the books while they make arguments about the series simultaneously

Both women relied on their aristocratic privileges to maintain and accrue power (Rhaenyra, blood claim and king-chosen; Cersei, born an aristocrat, a Lannister, and married to a King, mother to another). Cersei actually should be risking herself similar to how some say Rhaenyra was. She's not protected by a royal father, but by an "ordinary" aristocratic man, right?

Wrong!

Tywin Lannister is not that much smarter than Tyrion or her; it's that he's built a very intimidating reputation from his ruthlessness towards the Reynes, amassed great wealth, sided with Robert at the last minute, and made/maintained important connections (Steffon Baratheon and Aerys II) since he was in his early twenties. Nevertheless, in the world they live in, he has made his house more materially powerful and socially prestigious than it has ever been. But his greatest oversight was to abuse his own kids into their own versions of incompetencies so that his house wouldn't be able to continue its stature beyond himself and his brother Kevan. But for the sake of the climate Cersei grew up and developed her Lannister Exceptionalism, what I say still matters. With her father's influence and silent rejection, she has learned that to be powerful is to abuse and use up others. To cause enough fear to intimidate others that they couldn't dare to attack her or anyone she loved.

(For writings about Cersei, click HERE, HERE, and HERE).

She has less faith put into her than Rhaenyra had & she has been raised-left to block out what could diminish the soundness of her ideas through trying to emulate Tywin while not having his man-exclusive privileges. We have seen Cersei's mind and how she thinks for many chapters. While she has a good knowledge of history, she is also not patient or self-aware/accepting enough of her own limits to be good at critical thinking & be a good enough strategist. She's too prideful and full of deluded self-grandeur--her way of self-affirming against the misogyny she received since she was below 10 butting against her need to practice "real", substantive power. The same kind & level of power and compunction men are allowed.

But with this AND the fact they are different types of Queens...

While both women were severely limited in what partner they could have while still expect to have the security and positions that they had:

Rhaenyra, as the first true female heir apparent of the realm, had to have more planning and preparations for her to be able to ascend with as little issue as possible than if she were male. Rhaenyra's husband was gay and couldn't bring himself to "properly" impregnate her. She had to have heirs to secure her own claim and Viserys' wishes that she take the throne. It was her "duty" as a woman AND heir. It was thus also the only way she'd be even more assured she'd have a smoother time ascending. So her husband not impregnating her is a huge problem. And she was not a rapist, so forcing Laenor to do would be rape. If you are okay with Rhaenyra or any person raping their spouse to get heirs, you are not the type of person who should be reading ASoIaF nor have any sort of relationship, frankly. You are a menace to society, and a hypocritical because how is rape better than having "bastards"?!!! And she had to choose a father that would not try to risk her one her kids' lives by trying to say he was the dad or otherwise try to gain benefits by being said father. A man who would be with her for her alone and not try to overrule or overbear her authority/position for his own gain. ...So, for duty + love + intimacy = different types of "safety", Rhaenyra chose Harwin.

Cersei chose Jaime because she was suffering from both spousal abuse and the destroyed expectations in her role for being Queen Consort. All her life, Tywin had been hyping & telling her she would be the Consort of Rhaegar specifically. Like Alicent, Cersei and every girl knew that to be the Consort of the King was usually the highest rank and means to the most wealth/prestige a woman could have. Women are human, so they also have the propensity for ambition, or they want the most "safety" and "glory". Because Robert didn't hide or even try to engage with Cersei in a really human way because of his "missed chance" with Lyanna AND Cersei had grown up with the foundation that it was her Lannister exceptionalism that made her worthy (since being a woman wasn't enough), Cersei was forever offended by Robert. Again, there was a chance for Robert to be patient and engage when he perceived her reluctance...instead her tried to foist his displeasure on her own "coldness". Saying that she "owed" him her body no matter how she felt about him. Even with that being the custom, custom shouldn't trump human dignity. Like slavery...so it's okay to own a human being because by law or by tradition, they aren't human?! Because of custom, a woman's children aren't really hers but her husband, even though she could have nearly died birthing all/any of them...let's bfr. And we know that Robert physically abuses her. It really doesn't matter when or how it got there, once you decided to lay hands on people, you have debased them and are not owed neither respect nor should be owed protection. In fact, it is this entrapment of "duty" that propels Cersei into her being even more prideful...because without that pride, what else does she have?! Unfortunately, unlike Dany, Cersei's pride relies on her nobility and viciousness to "get the job done", on her being as "masculine" as possible. She has always admired the Targs exactly for their domination & the exclusive right to practice Westerosi-considered-incest (siblings), so, through Jaime/twin incest--the person she feels she would have been if she were male--she's affirming both her autonomy AND making a claim on her worthiness AND kinda making claim on him.

Robert, by abusing her and not recognizing her as worthy enough, she has decided, doesn't get to have further domination to her through reproduction. He does not get to totally "own" her through her children. If Cersei had any kids by Robert, it's very likely she would have hated them or at least really neglected them. If she hadn't tried to abort them even late into the pregnancy and risk her own life (I'm talking purposefully falling down the stairs or getting her hands on "cheap" moontea that could have wracked her body and/or killed her). It's her last line, her means of establishing control over herself...like Daena defying Baelor.

But bc unlike Rhaenyra, Cersei was Queen Consort, was never blood related to any royal, is and always will be just the Queen Mother AND if Robert had known any of her kids weren't his...GRRM has said that Robert would likely kill them. Cersei can "get away" with her kids looking more like her when they should at least have one have dark hair (again, all 3 have her & Lannister eyes and hair..ironic how like Rhaenyra, there are 3 kids) because:

neither Robert nor Tywin know about her kids; Robert definitely would have at least gone off the handle and tried to kill her and the kids, and I'm not sure about Tywin except that he'd never let go of his hold of the throne after years of his perceived and real humiliations to get close to it

Robert Baratheon owes his final victory of the rebellion to Tywin and the strongest support for his reign to Tywin Lannister, who has worked towards getting his blood on the throne for years and unlike to let a little blonde hair stop him.

On the other hand, while Viserys I's status is definitely protecting Rhaenyra and her children, Viserys, like Tywin, is the one who got his daughter into the mess she is in in the first place through his poor planning and wanting the "easiest" solution. Cersei doesn't have any other great support other than Tywin and Robert, while Rhaenyra at least had the Velaryons and multiple lords to fight for her in the name of chosen-heir-first. If Robert were to even try to harm her kids, he'd think of Tywin first before doing anything drastic, but there's still the possibility he'd be so angry as to actually blindly attack her or her kids and Tywin can't be everywhere. That and there was no universe where Cersei could have married Jaime as Rhaenyra should have been able to with Daemon (Targs have that overall, cultural ability--even with Starks marrying their uncles to nieces twice!); but Cersei pursues a relationship with Jaime anyway...because she wants to, makes her feel more like the "perfect" being, it brings her a sense of bodily autonomy and control after her marital abuse, and it's the most convenient thing.

As I already stated, Cersei isn't actually thinking of the real politics as motivation to be with Jaime so much as the self-soothing fantasies made from her own yearning desire for power and perfection. It's not truthful to make it as if she were this mastermind or even cares to know real strategy or at least far-thinking when she has never done that except for the wildfyre...which was a disastrous and stupid plan by its execution (ahem, Aerys II). Tywin may hide that her kids aren't Robert for the sake of reputation and keep them safe like Viserys, but his feelings in doing so are not in the same realm of loving even though, kinda like how it is Viserys' fault that Rhaenyra was in the position that she was in, Tywin is at fault for Cersei's. Her being married to Robert. Cersei is a pure pawn piece to Tywin, more than her brothers, because she is a woman and he will never allow her to be his heir. At the same time, it is by Tywin's support that Robert was able to cinch his butt on the throne.

You can read more HERE, as this analysis comes from blankwhiteshield. Cersei didn't have that much access to anyone else her entire life, even as a Consort, because, once more women do not have the same mobility as men (scroll down to "Medieval/Westerosi Noble Male vs. Female Mobility") and she is neither a Tyrell nor a Martell.

C) The Velaryons, if people really want to use their race to "prove" anything

1. If you cannot read throughly, you will miss the argument.

Some people have opted to use the "why aren't Rhaenyra's sons not darker?! It's so obvious that she had bastards!" thing. This assumes that these same people want to use real-life genetics as their main crutch.

With more people showing their kids online, we ourselves are getting to witness that interracial couples often have children in various colorations, from very thin, pale-blond-light-eyed to darker-skinned, darker eyes, coilier hair.

Ryan Condal and other producers/writers of HotD made the Velaryons historically black with no hint of blue, gray, or green eyes like Milly Alcock, Emma D'arcy, and Paddy Considine. Or vice versa. (Putting purple eyes in either post or contacts for some actors who are willing could have helped here, but the point is that the Velaryons who don't have Targs for direct relatives [Rhaenys being Laenor & Laena's mother] and Targs only share the pale hair part of Valyrian appearance).

Valaena Velaryon (the 3 conquerors' mother) would then be also black/darker skinned. Alyssa Velaryon (Rhaena--rider of Dreamfyre--, Jaehaerys I, & Alysanne's mom) would also be black/mixed/have darker skin.

Therefore every Targ after the Conquerors & before Aegon V are visibly black/mixed/darker-skinned (including Daemon, Viserys, and Rhaenyra)

After Aegon V marries the white Betha Blackwood, the Targs continue to marry lighter women, and thus the Targs get lighter and lighter until we get Dany & her siblings being white-white.

If we were to actually introduce black/mixed Rhaenyra, her kids with Laenor should also have inherited the eyes/hair/etc. of Valyrians. But even if she, this should-be-mixed-Rhaenyra had just white-Harwin as her lover and father to her kids....her kids could very well turn out very similar as they do now. Ironically, despite his own intentions and words, Condal set us up with a reason to believe that Rhaenyra should be even less suspected of having bastards even with the boys' dark hair and eyes.

Again, Because she would be visibly mixed, they also should be visibly mixed. Even though they aren't Laenor's biologically.

Not only does Rhaenys canonically have dark hair in the actual book, but her cousin Borros has the Baratheon dark hair that canon!Rhaenys supposedly (if we follow true genetics) and likely could have given Laenor to pass onto his own kids. Thereby he also really missed an opportunity to show how "obvious" the greens' slander was not working outside of us looking at Alicent's frenetic movements. See how this change could have actually given a more nuanced revelation and element to the story the writers created?!

In HotD, they should have all display variances of hair texture & eye color, including Jaehaerys, Daemon, and Rhaenyra themselves. However, this change and the inconsistency it brings up are not things that I "hate" in of themselves because we do need more than just white people in our mainstream fantasy until we force people to produce actual black/African fantasies....and there are a lot of them.

What I criticize is that Ryan Condal made it very clear that he sees the race play as a means to make it that much more "obvious" that Rhaenyra's kids aren't Laenor's, which both cheapens the value of how much misogyny plays a role against Rhaenyra as well as cheapens and emphasizes the inconsistency of how the writers use the Velaryons' blackness/darkness into it just being a political tool to audiences. (Entertainment Weekly)

"Once we had that idea, it just felt like everything fell into place," Condal recalls.

And this is what this Cosmopolitan Black critic had to say, but more eloquently than me:

Nowhere in the first season does HotD mention the Blackness of its few Black characters. All we’re told is that House Velaryon has blood from Old Valyria, which means they are really close to the Targaryens and often marry each other to keep the bloodline “pure.” Nothing wrong with that, but since the Velaryons are Black, shouldn’t all Velaryons have Afrocentric features? The casting department didn’t think so, apparently. One of the main storylines in the first season is the denial that Rhaenyra Targaryen’s children are bastards even though they have white skin and loose curly black hair while their “father” is Laenor Velaryon, a white-haired Black man with dreads. The book Fire & Blood (which the show is adapted from) also follows this plot point. But the Velaryons aren’t Black in the book, meaning it’s somewhat believable or at the very least plausible that Rhaenyra’s children are Leanor’s. I know this is a fantasy show, but there’s something really cringe about (1) trying to pass three obviously white children off as Black and (2) making the one Black family on the show the center of a *checks notes* paternity scandal. Even if House of the Dragon were only following the book’s plot point—the question of the legitimacy of Rhaenyra’s children—the decision to cast House Velaryon and thus Laenor as Black means that race and racial connotations needed to be introduced as well. You shouldn’t cast a white character as a person of color and then ignore their racial identity.

There were African Christians in the medieval-e/modern pd. worlds; however, this sort of paternity check-thru-race is a post-slavery, modern element.

And while race and genetics in the ASoIaF books are strange, it is not strange enough to eschew skin coloring OR the implications of being the only house that is only/mainly black-skinned altogether and what we readers would expect from that. House Velaryon would have intermarried, for example...have they been marrying each other? siblings, first cousins, and/or second cousins--or more often with other houses? How often for each type of marriage? If the last, why do they all still retain their West Afro-leaning features 90% of the time, even by ASoIaF standards of genetics? Are the other Valyrian houses exclusively black (Celtigar)? Will Rhaenyra's master-of-coin Bartimos Celtigar also be black (from episode 10, no it doesn't look like it)? If not, then that just further shows how the Velaryon-being-black change hasn't been enough to make HotD a model standout in creating meaningful diversity in mainstream fantasy media.

Neglecting the story, the implications of introducing race even with the argument of there being African Christians in the medieval era being accepted (though when you go back, it's more of complicated than that), and thus making race more of a downplayed object instead of an identity.

2. What does this mean, then?

With HotD's changes and by the argument of "Rhaenyra's kids are obviously not black!", if they had authentically used race and skin color when they said it mattered within the show (Condal already said this!), then show!Rhaenyra, by THEIR logice, should be visibly mixed, not white

AND:

show!Rhaenyra's actually should able to pick any lover of any coloring (as long as they have a trustworthy character) bc her kids will always logically/visually "pass" as Laenor's, no matter their actual father; her boys, no matter what would likely have darker skin or be mixed with their array of coloring, because SHE would have that

Laenor, being their official dad, is already black and further showing how their paternity wouldn't be as suspect if it weren't for social manipulation

their appearance wouldn't be as controversial WITHOUT the greens sowing doubt

again, she'd have more ability to choose than Cersei, but bc Rhaenyra in HotD and F&B is still the heir to the throne instead of a regular noblewoman and goes to Dragonstone to rule it independently. Thereby meeting with more people face to face without being as restricted as she would have been as a Queen Consort.

Why have have the comment abt race and skin color at all? if it's not not actually going to matter in-world?! And if it doesn't matter, it was a tasteless, sexist and racist "joke" on Condal's part.

Without the greens, the only reason why anyone would suspect Rhaenyra's kids was bc Laenor was open-secret-gay & chose of his own volition to not be around her as often as people expect married couples to be.

Like I implied in section B), neither are in either Rhaenyra's control nor her fault. If people argue she should have forced Laenor to stay by order, I don't doubt that some of those people are the ones who would say/have said she should have forced him to have sex with her despite his lack of desire, lack of enthusiastic consent, and inability OR that she should have had a slave from any of the Valyrian Free Cities to impregnate her. All of which is rape and/or exploitation of lower-classed persons' bodies.

To the HotD writers...Give us more! Develop a stonger sense of the court's attitude of Rhaenyra and Alicent's and their respective families!!! Give us a pan or something of the courtiers having silent "fun" but doing it so as to not get either Otto's eye or move themselves apart from Alicent's favor. Something that shows the audience that Alicent is trying really hard to smear Rhaenyra out of spite, and therefore puts her in the narrative position of being wrong/villainous for her internalized misogyny through slight implied mocking. If we go through with just the *shrug* of making ASoIaF genetics "that way", still, Condal's still neglected the real implications of making the entire Velaryon house black and all other houses white/predominantly white.

Again, IF he wants to encourage the audience to rely so much on genetics to castigate Rhaenyra!!! If the audience does so without his input, then this still applies to those who would do so to make their arguments against Rhaenyra!!!.

Finally....

HotD tried to make as if they were doing something more meaningful with HotD and a project that image and for some it worked bc racist/sexist consumerism, but it still failed to recreate the meaningful drama and convey the subtle & unsubtle criticisms of many ideologies, historical actions, and social structures that the original story was going for by not thinking of the implications of having mixed/black Velaryon people. And it was probably because they focused more on diluting the sides, in what ozymalek says was made by their own misunderstanding F&B:

The Dance era in "Fire and Blood" is something that will fundamentally cause the feelings of cognitive dissonance. I think this is why people initially disliked this book when it first came out. It did not provide easy answers, it was written as a historical account, the in-universe historians were clearly biased. People, however, had trouble realizing who the historians are biased for and against. Team Green would have you think that "F&B" is biased against the Greens, because their allegiance as maesters clearly being to Hightowers notwithstanding, they could not evade simple historical facts: that most of the kingdom supported Rhaenyra, that Greens were horrendously misogynistic and that her usurpation was clearly wrong. That's why, approaching it from the "choose your favorite war criminal" point of view, it was difficult for Greens to accept that their preferred side is so cartoonishly evil - obviously bias must have been involved, even though the only pro-Black narrator of F&B is Mushroom, the rest are Greens. The maester's anti-Targaryen bias, however, manages to sneak in and mess with the reader's balance, causing said cognitive dissonance. It's hard to deal with it as a reader, let alone as a showrunner who's trying to adapt a story in which not everything is set in stone. They incorrectly assumed that, because they are constantly forced to question what is happening in the story, the bias is with the underlying idea that there was a correct side. As such, they assumed that all the inconsistencies result from maesters not choosing to view it that way. Ryan Condal repeatedly stated that he does not want watchers to pick sides, while George RR Martin embraces it and even encourages it (and I think that he himself has picked the Blacks). Such is our nature as human beings. So they decided that they have to balance the scales.

They really refused to consider & imagine how the difference in race would change the narrative of the Dance and consequently think of ways to make it still work for the story's purpose of showing how people can manipulate self-images and others' images, especially when it concerns women and women in the pursuit of access to higher powers. It refused to actually work to integrate the Blackness, fine. but then it OR the audience--who praised said move--also tried to use said Blackness to make meaning but make meaning against Rhaenyra.

So now there are critical plotholes and missed opportunities in the narrative that just make the story more boring, flatter, and deceptively simpler while still converting misogynist and racist sentiments into stereotypical narratives--thereby discouraging its audience from engaging in proper insight/observing patterns of social manipulation in the misogyny against Rhaenyra, as well as the show's own different flavors of misogyny in Alicent, Laena, Rhaenys' etc.'s re-writings.

They really want Rhaenyra's actions of sexual autonomy to be either criticized, seen as a flaw of hers, or make her agency thematically subordinate to the misogynist expectations that some may feel should guide Rhaenyra's rule/self-conduct. Therefore, it's encouraging the audience to look at Rhaenyra as a/the negative agent, to comply with the misogynist forces and their logic against her. The agent of society-destruction instead of someone trying to move through a society set up more against her than for her. To judge a female leader differently than a male one, judge her "worthiness" to rule more by her willingness to be as traditional and misogynist against herself. To be more complicit with the status quo.

When really no one should genuinely internalize the need to impress or "prove" one's worthiness to people who already believe your gender, skin, etc. justifies your exclusion from certain positions of power, rights, and privileges. That is like asking nicely or behaving like a "good girl" to heart (not just using it as covers) & expecting the same treatment men have/the same rights. This is how show!Alicent thinks and what gets her into that frantic state that makes her think less clearly than she could, adding to the anxiety and abuse she already receives from her father and Larys Strong. Unfortunately, Alicent's belief in "duty" and the absolute "sacrifice" that mainly women must make for a "orderly" aristocratic society just serves to imprison her.

#cersei lannister #rhaenyra targaryen #hotd characterization #agot characterization #fire and blood characters #character comparison #westerosi succession #westerosi queens #cersei's characterization #rhaenyra's characterization

[racefortheironthrone]

So when a Lord dies in Westeros and their heir takes over do they just send ravens everywhere else in the kingdom to make sure everyone knows? Like, was everyone from the Farwynds to the Yronwoods made aware that Sweetrobin was now the new Lord Arryn when Jon Arryn died (which might not be the best example since Jon was Hand and also a Lord Paramount but I think you get the point)?

Everywhere? Probably not.

You would need to send ravens to your liege lord and/or your king, because the heir has fees to pay and homage to make in order to formally take over the fiefdom, and that needs to be arranged quickly. Likewise, if the lordship in question has vassals of its own, they also have to be contacted, because they're also going to have to make homage to the heir, and that also needs to be done quickly.

You would also probably need to send ravens to your neighbors who your house deals with on a regular basis who's in charge now. How wide the radius of neighborhood extends depends on the importance of the lordship in question.

Your maester would also probably send a raven back to the Citadel, which might in turn send ravens back to other maesters in the field to keep them informed as to the goings on in the world so that they can keep their masters in the loop.

So to take your example: when Jon Arryn dies, this is as big political news as it gets, because he was Hand of the King, Lord Paramount of the Vale, and Warden of the East. Not only does everyone in the Vale need to know, but so too do Jon's peers among the Lords Paramount, and pretty much every lord would want to know.

On the other hand, if someone at the level of Ser Eustace Osgrey dies, I don't think the news gets further than Goldengrove and probably doesn't make it to Highgarden let alone to King's Landing.

#asoiaf #asoiaf meta #succession #inheritance #westerosi feudalism #ravenry

[velcryons]

Actually now i am thinking of the implications* of a matrilineal marriage between Daemon and Laena

#ooc ; #*in keeping with my headcanon of velaryon absolute primogeniture vs westerosi male preference primogeniture #like. realistically it wouldn't happen because of rank differences. daemon is a prince and laena is only a lady #but lets say they were to argue that laena is also a princess through rhaenys #and that technically daemon has been removed from the line of succession #it would mean there would be no fight for succession when corlys is ill #at most it would be 'who should be baela's regent until her 16th nameday: vaemond or rhaenys' #because as the eldest daughter of the the eldest with GUARANTEED velaryon blood: vaemond would have no reason to argue her claim #id also imagine the betrothals w the twins and luke and jace would be reversed: rhaena with jace and baela with luke #and with this vaemond most likely wouldn't die. (if he doesn't insult rhaenys somehow when she inevitably becomes baelas regent) #and the silent five wouldn't stake their claim and get their tongues removed either #which MEANS you have vaemond his sons AND the silent five on th side of rhaenyra #like actively on the side of rhaenyra. and vaemond has experience in war #addam and alyn would still have the potential to be broughtforth and legitimized

[feydrautha]

"If you dont pick a side - aka the side I personally prefer for moral reasons - in HOTD, then you miss the entire point GRRM wanted to make, and are immoral"

Have you considered that you can do two things at once, understand the deeper meaning of the Dance and also watch this in the same way you would follow a telenovela or a soccer match between two bitter rival teams where you don't really have a horse in the race

#house of the dragon #yes the whole point is the same as in asoiaf that the throne is not worth it when the entire country is burning and the people suffer #yes from the pov of the succession law rhaenys shouldve been queen before viserys; rhaenyra is the rightful heir to him #as are her children regardless of parentage by virtue of being her children and even then they are recognised by laenor as his #yes fuck andal traditions and westerosi society but that should be a given lmfao #and i can still vibe to whichever messy shit happens on there with all of the aforementioned things floating in my head #bc westeros isnt a real place and the only ones who come to harm are fictional make-believe characters #anyway hoo boy i wish i had the gift of the sight and perceive the discourse when the show is over and we have the full account

[ilynpilled]

i thought the previous anon said waystar royco instead of waymar royce lmao

as i was typing that shit out i was just thinking this too LMFAO like am i misremembering this mf is he really almost waystar royco. silly name waymar royce

#ask #all the succession web weaving that the mooties are putting on my feed and its destructive effects #i actually double checked if that was his actual name and we werent being succession brained #it sounds so off shhdjs #anyways heres how waystar royco is exploring westerosi primogeniture

[navree]

well damn now i REALLY wanna write that sansa v arya au huh

#personal #in my defense the tudors was like little amélie's very first historical obsession #i entered historical interest basically by becoming a hardcore mary i stan #so i know a LOT about all of these people #and honestly i maintain that beyond northern independence being stupid politically #there's no way the northern succession won't get messy as hell like dance of dragons level messy #jon is robb's named heir. bran is the legitimate heir due to westerosi law. rickon has been living in the north the most. #sansa's got the vale at her back and littlefinger's machinations. arya's clearly fondly remembered and already has people rallied to her. #(even tho they're not actually to her) #and all three of them are probably gonna have really solid reasons for believing They should be in charge #along with different factions supporting each one #(again that's why i think northern independence is messy because the most logical way out of this is just bringing the north back) #(not to mention that again it's just a stupid idea) #but point is now i wanna write that mess through an elizabeth v mary lens

[visenyaism]

cersei lannister had about 3-5 business days of peace at the end of a game of thrones where it’s like. plan she singlehandedly concocted to murder her abusive terrible husband THE KING goes off without a hitch literally flawless execution most successful kingslaying in westerosi history. rhaegar outfit at his funeral. anyone who suspects foul play is in the dungeon or on her side. coup d’état equally successful. her bastard son installed as ruling king. ned stark in prison about to swear fealty to the lannisters and get ransomed cutting hostilities off at the pass. one stark kid in custody and littlefinger promised to take care of the second one. annoying brothers-in-law scattered to opposite ends of the kingdom away from her away from each other not a problem. lysa arryn doing fuck all. tyrion in enemy custody and not the walls. father and brother going to war for her. also jon arryn who she never liked is dead as a freebie. and then she never came down from this high but can you blame her

#asoiaf #if there hadn’t been like 4 different people going rogue on her could she have. swung it #all on like. negligible actual political education

[drakaripykiros130ac]

Sometimes I get the feeling that people in this fandom don’t understand the meaning of an oath.

The Asoiaf world may be fantasy, but it is still based on real-life medieval setting.

In European medieval times, the values of the Church were held in high regard, and a person’s word actually meant something. When someone made a promise/an oath, especially a noble, it was expected of that person to honor it. Failure to do so resulted in dire consequences.

It’s not like it is now in modern 21st century, when everyone makes promises they end up breaking eventually and it’s like *shrug* “oh well, too bad” and no consequences follow.

So, when the Lords of the Realm swore oaths to uphold the ascension of Rhaenyra Targaryen on the Iron Throne, they were not at all “stale” or “meaningless”, as Otto Hightower tries to argue (that’s modern mentality and kind of poor writing on the part of the showrunners). It’s a pledge made in the name of a House.

And just because some of the Lords who swore those oaths died, that doesn’t mean that those oaths died with them (as the Lannisters, who have no honor whatsoever, try to argue). The oaths were made on behalf of Houses, not individuals, and therefore, the Houses as a whole were expected to respect them.

The reason Rhaenyra Targaryen had most of the Realm on her side is because the majority of Westerosi Houses understand the meaning of an oath. They also acknowledge that with the absence of an actual succession law, Rhaenyra Targaryen is the rightful Queen of the Seven Kingdoms.

#Something for Stannis Baratheon to chew on #He acts like the all mighty honorable guy who understands the law and does the right thing but he doesn’t understand anything #The Hightowers Lannisters and Baratheons are oath-breakers and a disgrace to the Realm #team black #pro team black #rhaenyra targaryen #queen rhaenyra #the dragon queen #asoiaf #hotd #house of the dragon #a song of ice and fire #fire and blood #the dance of the dragons #anti otto hightower #anti house lannister #the blacks #asoiaf meta #anti house hightower #anti stannis baratheon

[queenvhagar]

"Actually Jace and Luc aren't bastards and are in fact legitimate heirs because Rhaenyra/Laenor/Viserys/Corlys etc are playing along that they're legitimate and still consider them in line for succession, therefore anyone calling them bastards or trying to stop them from inheriting are just bastardphobic and problematic"

Okay, once and for all... let's look at the reality of Westerosi society and its laws, traditions, and customs. It's true that bastards in fact can be legitimized by the king and/or lords of houses. That's indisputable.

But crucially, they first have to be acknowledged as bastards and officially be made legitimate by a legal decree.

A famous example of this occurring is the case of King Aegon IV Targaryen. He had several bastards that he then claimed as legitimate on his deathbed. However, Aegon IV never tried to hide that they were of illegitimate birth and acknowledged them as bastards first. Then he officially decreed that his bastards were now legitimate and had claims to the Iron Throne after his death. Crucially, he didn't just pretend they were legitimate all along and try to convince anyone otherwise - Aegon IV made a decree to legitimize them because he and everyone knew they were bastards, and only an official act could change an illegitimate heir into a legitimate heir. Because he did this, all of his illegitimate children became legitimate in the eyes of Westerosi law.

In an example of how failing to do this could create problems, Cersei Lannister had bastards that she tried to pass off as legitimate Baratheons. Ned Stark deciphered the truth based on hair color and obviously took issue with the fact that Cersei's children were not Robert's children and were not legitimate heirs to Robert's throne. Because Ned knew that Joffrey was illegitimate and Cersei was trying to usurp lawful, rightful succession with her bastard, he tried to prevent Joffrey from taking Robert Baratheon's seat of power after his death. Of course, Cersei never could have feasibly acknowledged their illegitimate birth and then had them be made legitimate by decree - doing so would have exposed her incest with her twin brother, and the king would never support her or the children in legitimization. Cersei did not have the support of the king. So, because people knew that Joffrey was not Robert's child, they did not consider him to be the rightful inheritor of Robert's throne. This is basic feudalism. Whether it's just or unjust, according to our modern perspective, that is just how feudalism works, and it works like this based on centuries of precedent and law that was created to maintain societal order. It is based on these laws that the entire feudalist society operates. Had the king officially legitimized Joffrey, though, there would be less ability to dispute his succession. He would be seen in the eyes of the law as Robert's lawful heir.

In a very similar yet uniquely different situation, Rhaenyra Targaryen had bastards that she tried to pass off as legitimate Velaryons. Everyone (literally, at least in the show - even Daemon and Laena knew from an entire continent away) deciphered the truth based on hair color (and skin color, in the show) and many took issue with the fact that Rhaenyra's children were not Laenor's children and were not legitimate heirs to seats of power, especially Laenor's (or his father's) seat of power. Because people, like Vaemond Velaryon, knew that Lucerys was illegitimate and that Rhaenyra was trying to usurp lawful, rightful succession with her bastard, they tried to prevent Lucerys from taking Corlys Velaryon's seat of power after his death (and based on illegitimacy, they would likely challenge Jacaerys' inheritance of the Iron Throne after his mother). Having illegitimate children created a huge problem for Rhaenyra.

However, unlike Cersei, Rhaenyra was a woman who had a considerable amount of political power given the context. Rhaenyra was the heir to the Iron Throne, and she also had the full support of her father the king. At any point, it was extremely possible that the king and Corlys could and would officially legitimize the Strong boys and let them take their place in the line of succession. They could even justify it as "Targaryen exceptionalism" if they want, as many Targaryen rulers had done with the law in the past (see: incestual marriage and Jahaerys I Targaryen). This would especially make sense in the case of Jacaerys, who many argue naturally gains his legitimacy to sit the Iron Throne from being Rhaenyra's son. Others at the same time argue that Laenor and Corlys' adoption and acceptance of Lucerys as a "true Velaryon" gives him legitimacy to sit the Velaryon seat of power, and Corlys and the king could have officially decreed this by legitimizing Lucerys as a legitimate heir to the Velaryon seat of power. The act of legitimizing Rhaenyra's sons was possible and always an option.

Of course, this would mean that Rhaenyra would have to declare them first illegitimate and admit to an extramarital affair with the heir to Harrenhal. However, the king could protect her from the fallout, much like he protected her from other consequences she created by her actions. He could claim "Targaryen exceptionalism" and provide justification for her actions (like that argument that she had to, as Laenor was infertile or otherwise unable to produce heirs, for example) and then not only would you have the king's word as law but you would also have the king's decree as law. There would be no room to argue that. Her claim to the throne would be cemented again by the king and her sons would be officially and legally made legitimate heirs. Everyone already knew they were bastards. Officially legitimizing them would have been the solution to any problems that created.

There is no doubt that having her sons officially legitimized would strengthen her claim more than trying to continue to (unsuccessfully) gaslight everyone that they were always legitimate, instead demonstrating that she believes herself to be above the law or somehow smarter than everyone else. However, that's truly the crux of this issue here. Rhaenyra sees no need to legitimize her sons officially, because she believes that the wants of those she is destined to rule are "of no concern" to her. She views herself as above others due to her blood and birthright, so she would never take the politically aware and advantageous step of actually trying to solve the problem she created when she birthed not one but three obviously illegitimate children. She would instead prefer to continue to rely on her father to defend her, even in his dying days. The problem comes, then, when her father is gone. With the king dead, who else could she rely on to solve her problems for her?

In summary, Jace and Luc could have been officially legitimized at any point. This was uniquely a situation where they could have been officially legitimized and this would have solved a lot of problems. But they weren't.

#feudalism existed....read a history book or something idk #properly tagged. if you don't like it make your own post thx #pro team green #anti team black #anti rhaenyra targaryen

[atopvisenyashill]

i was thinking more about characters Performing Gender, but not necessarily Transgressing Gender. I wound up focusing on Ned and Sansa bc I feel like I understand them the most but-

Sansa as a hostage is imo the most obvious (bc it’s so well done) moment of someone clearly Performing Gender but not being transgressive in that performance. Which isn’t to say it’s not a complicated performance; it’s a fine line Sansa walks between weaponizing her gender to protect herself without seeming too fake. She’s trying to placate the Lannisters by playing the perfect, dedicated, air headed betrothed because it’s the only defense she has - if she outwardly rebels, she will be punished in a likely violent and/or sexual way (which isn’t even conjecture - when she says “or maybe he’ll give me yours” Joffrey has her struck with an armored hand). She’s not quite successful in being convincing but that’s because it’s a rather extreme situation; despite no one believing her, she does make herself seem meek and stupid enough that no one suspects she’s plotting to escape with Dontos until she’s well away from KL. The fact that she even has Dontos to confide in is because of Sansa’s relationship with gender! When she saves him, she covers her rebellious slip by playing up Joffrey’s intelligence & his role as King; she reaches for “tools” of her gender AND of ~proper manhood~ to save a life and herself from another beating. Her retreats into the godswood and silence are very much Sansa attempting to recharge from these draining interactions, the same way a knight would need to stop and eat and rest after a fight. She is fighting, constantly, by forcing herself to stay within the narrow confines of a specific type of gender performance as a way of shielding herself from harm.

Ned yelling at Cat is another big one, and I’ve seen the scene referred to as Ned using his patriarchal power to scare Cat, which is a great description. It feels like a Performance because Ned is putting on this terrifying Lord Stark mask in an attempt to get Catelyn to stop asking about Jon (and Lyanna). This is not how he usually acts with those he loves! When Ned is with His People, he is welcoming of questions, curiosity, emotion, even transgressive thought (to a point! the idea that Ned is a feminist because he lets Arya learn to fight is Not accurate but you can’t deny he allows significantly more flexibility wrt gender expression than most of the fathers we meet in this series. the bar is in hell tho). Yet when Cat asks him about Jon’s mother, Ned scares her so well she stops asking & still remembers the moment bitterly over a decade later. And if that snippet we see through Bran’s eyes of Ned praying that Cat will forgive him does come after she asks (like it’s suspected), it’s clear not only that this is a performance he’s putting on & weaponizing against Cat, it’s one he does not like using as a weapon against someone he is close to. After using the power his gender gives him to cause harm, he retreats to the godswood and silence to pray and rest, much like Sansa. A spiritual cleanse, the way a soldier may pray after battle, to reset and reconnect Being A Proper Man to Being A Kind Man.

I think there’s something interesting in that two of the characters most widely defined by how well they adhere to Westerosi gender norms both dislike feeling like they had to weaponize their gender. They are exhausted by the performance, because it’s a performance. This isn’t Sansa getting excited over tourneys, or Ned teaching his sons to fight; it’s toxic masculinity, it’s structural misogyny. It’s something they’re good at, excel at, and connected to something they enjoy but when it’s paired with violence, whether done by Ned or done to Sansa, it crosses over in their minds from an innate part of themselves (The Gender) to a performance necessary due to survival (The Gender Role). And that after these performances, both retreat to nature & god as a way of resting and cleansing from the experience.

#valyrianscrolls #ned stark #sansa stark #getting on my soap box #there’s something here too about romanticism. like shelley and coleridge and whitman. the need to return to nature to undo society’s harm. #especially with the way various romance movements and romantic tropes are played with by their characters. #i can’t even remember who said it which just shows u how shitty an english major i am aksjd but about how. #like society is necessary but just as necessary is the ability to escape into nature. i *think* it was coleridge i’m probably wrong. #the gender war makes corpses of us all #gender politics in asoiaf #obviously you can point to several moments for both of them. sansa calling petyr father. ned’s relationship with theon. wherein they both #are clearly performing something for an audience. #there’s like 12 other branches of this in my head. jaime’s romanticism. being knighted bloody & the sacrilegious nature of the sept sex. #and his inability to escape his gender performance the way ned & sansa do. ned being willing to cry in front of others but robb only ever #crying in the dark with his baby brother after he loses ned. cat’s tower stuff & finding solace in sewing. #i’m gonna try to write up something about loras & renly here too. tomorrow. #also i wrote this at the train station after work so if there’s errors or it makes no sense just pretend u never saw it skskdj

[horizon-verizon]

I always laugh when TG state Aegon III couldn’t possibly have gotten his claim from Rhaenyra because she was never officially recognized as queen. Who did Henry VII (founder of the Tudor dynasty) get his claim from ? Margaret Beaufort, his mother who was never queen. And Henry VII’s claim to the throne was incredibly weak; Margaret Beaufort was only the granddaughter of an illegitimate grandson of Edward III who was explicitly disinherited. 

Who is Margaret Beaufort descended from? She comes from Jon of Gaunt's, the Duke of Lancaster, line, and Jon of Gaunt was the 3rd surviving son of Edward III.

This is a family tree of it so things can make sense for people:

Text to accompany for who can't inspect the image above:

Edward III was of the House Plantagenet, the house where both the houses York & Lancaster came from.

Jon of Gaunt's son--John Beaufort, the 1st Earl of Somerset--himself had a son, who was John Beaufort, the 1st Duke of Somerset. (A lot of "John's"; it was how they sort of made their heirs more legitimate of the power they inherited, by reminding everyone that they were of John of Gaunt's descent. Like how royals do.) Earl John's mother was Jon of Gaunt's mistress Katherine Swynford & they had Earl John before they married, so for a time, Earl John was illegitimate. Some people would say that this makes him eternally illegitimate, but this is a digression.

Margaret Beaufort was Duke John's daughter, but Duke John was born (c.1373) before his parents married (c.1396). Thus Henry VII (her son) did have a wishy-washy claim to the throne through her…yet he still got to become king. Aegon III's claim through Rhaenyra, comparatively, looks a hell of a lot stronger!

And I don't know why they keep ignoring that in the Targ succession list in the back of F&B, it specifically marks Aegon III as "Rhaenyra's son". Not "Viserys' grandchild" nor "Daemon's son". It's "Rhaenyra's son". Compare this to all other Targ kings and who the text ties them to connote where they get the legitimacy of their claim from:

And then people come back asking about how Daeron II has his claim go under Naerys instead of Aegon IV or Aemon, trying to say that this list couldn't possibly show us where these people officially take their claim. I need people to also know that while women/girls do not statistically inherit seats of power like men/boys, but:

what anon says above, which means men have also claimed stuff through a woman related to them somehow when it was convenient AND women have/could receive seats [next point]

in the ASoIaF universe, Rohanne Webber, Agnes Blackwood, Marla Sunderland, Jeyne Arryn, Lyanna Mormount, etc are all women who have before, during, and after Aegon's Conquest have inherited the leadership of their house. Aerea Targaryen, Shiera Blackwood, Aelora Targaryen, and Shireen Baratheon ALL have been named as a man's heir throughout the ASoIaF universe/history! Girls/women are still technically candidates for leadership in Westeros and always have been! But not only that...

the point of a claim is to trace one's blood to an aristocrat FIRST, then gender, with a preference for males but a clear social willingness to use a female relation!

Robert Baratheon allowed & benefited from maesters using his Targaryen grandmother's Targness to add to the legitimacy of his own claim to rule and his war after he won (his grandmother was Rhaelle, daughter of Aegon V & Queen Betha Blackwood [quote below from ACoK, Catelyn II])

#asoiaf asks to me #english history #medieval history #fiction vs reality #westerosi succession #westerosi society #westerosi history #westerosi women #women in westeros

[atopcat]

This is absolute bullshit, these racist fucks have written out the only black character in the book replacing her with a canonically white character!

Is it now woke to decide two women are interchangeable simply because they have the same skin colour?!

Nettles matters! I don’t care about the whole love triangle bs, she matters as a little black girl who triumphs as the sole female dragonseed. She’s important because she’s living proof you don’t need Valyrian blood to claim a dragon. She’s the underdog, the one no one thought would survive but does despite everything.

Rhaena’s victory as the last dragon rider until Daenerys Targaryen, Mother of Dragons also matters! Morning is just as her name insinuates, she’s the light who brings hope in the aftermath of one of the darkest times in Targaryen and Westerosi history. You are robbing Rhaena of her triumph, of her success at finally hatching a dragon. She was underestimated, sent to the Vale because she couldn’t help in the war effort. But it’s SHE who brings the Vale army to Kingslanding with the last dragon!

Nettles is a peasant girl whose story is about overcoming hardships and poverty, Rhaena’s is about a royal princess who proves she has blood of the dragon.

These stories are not interchangeable just because both women are black!

#this show is racist af #house of the dragon #anti HotD #hotd critical #rhaena targaryen #Rhaena of Pentos #nettles #team black #hotd meta #valyrianscrolls #asoiaf meta

[kataraavatara]

No, Corlys and Otto did not do the same thing here.

And this is in no way defending Corlys, so please don’t twist my words. These things are both awful, one is just worse.

Look at Laena and Viserys. Corlys and Rhaenys openly approach Viserys and say they have an offer of marriage. Laena and Viserys then take a walk outside, where they’re both visible to lots of people, including her mother.

However, Alicent is instructed by her father to visit Viserys “in his chambers” ie alone and without supervision. While Viserys is definitely a creep for marrying his daughters best friend, I (and I would also say Otto) don’t believe he would ever force himself on Alicent or that anything “untoward” would happen, and nothing physical did happen between them. But that absolutely would not stop the rumors that something happened from springing into existence, just like they did in F&B. There’s no way to keep these “meetings” a secret. In the best case scenario, Alicent marries Viserys and people whisper about the circumstances under which it took place. Worst case, Alicent’s reputation and chance to make a decent match is ruined.

Although obviously both these scenarios are disgusting, the Velaryons being very clear about their intentions and having it take place in a public setting is much more “honorable” in Westeros than Otto essentially telling Alicent to sneak around with the king and gain his trust. Although Laena is rejected by Viserys as a match, it doesn’t negatively affect her standing or reputation. This is not the same for Alicent.

Let’s go back to our worst case and say that Alicent’s “Vizzy Visits” become a scandal- while we, a modern audience, recognize fifteen year old Alicent is a victim, Westeros is a society that A) Regularly practices child marriages, at least among the nobility and B) Sees sixteen as the age of adulthood. Alicent would 100% be painted as an evil seductress who seduced the poor grieving king- hell, a lot of people in the fandom paint her that way in the 21st century! Otto, in an attempt to save face, could easily throw her under the bus. “Omg I can’t believe my daughter engaged in such scandalous behavior, things just haven’t been the same since her mother died :( poor me, pls don’t be mad, I had no idea.” If it’s Otto’s word vs Alicent’s, people will believe Otto.

Not to mention how aware he is of her friendship with Rhaenyra. And yes, Rhaenyra is just as much a member of Westerosi society as everyone else. She does not have the 21st century view of things we do. She at 14 has the responsibility of being heir to the Iron Throne with people swearing oaths to uphold her succession. Even if Alicent told her afterwards her father forced her into it, she just wouldn’t (and didn’t) understand- to her, Alicent and her both are becoming adults now and handling adult responsibilities and are accountable for their actions. Rhaenyra is headstrong, rebellious, and fiercely protective- “Because my dad told me to” is not going to cut it as an excuse. Otto knew this would ruin her friendship with Rhaenyra and didn’t care.

Now, the above analysis is mostly about the secrecy of it all. Rhaenyra didn’t seem to hold any ill will towards Laena in particular, which is why I believe her anger was as much about the secrecy of it as it was at the actual marriage itself. I think if Alicent was like “hey, my dad wants me to marry yours” there’s not much I can really do about it” she’d still probably balk but be much more accepting and sympathetic.

Now, look how they’re respectively dressed. Laena just has much more fabric covering her, with the cape sleeves and two layered dress, while Alicent’s is pretty form fitting. Not to mention the creepy incestous undertones when Otto instructs her to put on her mother’s dress and says how much she looks like her mom.

While both fathers are disgusting for doing this, Otto put his daughter in a much riskier situation where the question wasn’t if there would be fallout, just how much fallout there would be. By never formally and publicly declaring his intention to present Alicent as an option for the new Queen Consort, he put Alicent’s reputation and livelihood at stake in a way Laena’s was not. And this is not to take away from how inappropriate Laena’s situation was for a little girl. This is just to say-

When the bar is literally in hell, Otto Hightower finds a way to keep digging.

#anti otto hightower #rhaenyra targaryen #alicent hightower #dance of the dragons #house of the dragon #house velaryon #corlys velaryon #laena velaryon #viserys targaryen #hotd meta #house of the dragon meta #asoiaf #anti team green

[dragondream-ing]

If someone defends Rhaenyra’s usurpation because of tRaDiTiOn, they better be waving a Maegor banner proudly.

I’m being serious.

So many people in this fandom care about the tradition of Westerosi inheritance and act like yelling about it justifies team green’s actions. They never seem to take into consideration what it means.

This post is inspired by my allergy to inconsistency and hypocrisy. Here we go.

The only consistent tradition of Targaryen succession is the ruler choosing their own heir. Sometimes that aligned with Westerosi tradition, often it did not. And it started with the very first heir. So either you admit Maegor was the rightful heir over Aenys, or you admit he wasn’t because Aegon the Conqueror said so.

Let me explain.

Visenya was Aegon’s first wife. In Westerosi tradition, Rhaenys would be considered at best a mistress and her children out of the succession or, at the least, behind Visenya’s children. The lords accepted the validity of Aegon’s plural marriage because they didn’t have the power to oppose the Conquerors, simple as. Tradition didn’t matter in the face of dragons. It is not a genuine argument and hasn’t been since the creation of the Crown itself. House Targaryen’s exceptionalism went beyond incest and dragons from the start, and accepting Aenys as king shows the nobles accepted this when it was convenient.

So I’d like team green to be consistent. Is the king’s word law, a la Aegon choosing Aenys as his heir? Or is this a break from tradition that was only corrected when Maegor killed his nephew and took the throne?

It gets messy from here. Maegor, as we know, didn’t have a child, so he chose his great-niece, Aerea as his heir. Jaehaerys was still alive, he could’ve chosen him. Heck, that might’ve eased like a drop of the tension between him, Jaehaerys and Alyssa Velaryon. So if you’re a tradition truther, Maegor was the proper king but then chose an untraditional heir. Hmm.

Then we get to Jaehaerys, and a tradition truther might think YES, THAT’S OUR GUY. But he’s really not.

Yes, he stopped considering his eldest living child, Daenerys, as his heir after Aemon was born. But then Aemon died.

Aemon did, however, die with an heir. Her name was Rhaenys. In Westerosi tradition, she’d inherit after him, because a daughter inherits before a brother. Now, I know the lords do all sorts of things to circumvent this (see Alys Karstark), but that *is* Westerosi tradition.

Did Jaehaerys follow tradition? Nope. He picked his second oldest son, Baelon.

Some might say there are logical reasons for this. Baelon was a warrior, older, and had grown sons. Rhaenys was like 18, married to an ambitious lord not named Targaryen, and at risk of dying in childbirth (Baelon was named heir in 92, Rhaenys had her first child in 92). HOWEVER, we see with Jeyne Arryn becoming Lady of the Vale while still a *toddler* that Westerosi tradition doesn’t set aside claims merely because such concerns exist. In fact, in ASOIAF, some Lannister married an f-ing BABY to lay claim to her lands because *she* is the acknowledged inheritor.

You could argue that it matters more when it’s the Crown, and I’ll concede that while pointing out you’ve made my argument for me: isn’t that a good reason for the Crown to do what it wants instead of following traditions that hamstring it?

If you’re a tradition truther, however, you should be in a rage and insisting Rhaenys inherit, and you should be outraged by what was done to her at the Council of 101 after Baelon dies. Her claim wasn’t even considered, Laenor’s was—ya know, her toddler son who got his claim *through* her.

So then Viserys takes the throne and continues the Targaryen custom of choosing his heir. And the tradition truthers of the fandom rise up and boo, and they cry “duty and sacrifice! What about tradition!?”

Just admit that the lords of Westeros, Alicent, her merry band of greens, and the fans that make excuses for them didn’t and don’t care about tradition unless it suits them, and they only become vocal about it when a woman stands a good chance of inheriting over a man.

Viserys never wavered in his choice, the realm knew it and so did the greens. This is precisely why Rhaenyra had far more support than her brother, and why the argument that the realm wouldn’t accept her is bs. The realm DID accept her. Because they understood something many in this fandom struggle to

There was only one consistent tradition of royal succession between the Conquest and the Dance: the ruler chooses their heir.

#anti team green #anti alicent stans #say tradition one more time I dare you #the Targaryens answer to neither gods nor men hello #is the king’s word law or not #one time I asked a team green stan this on Twitter and got blocked so fast lmao #team black forever #Rhaenyra is the true queen deal with it

[lunamond]

Rhaenyra‘s sons‘ illegitamcy is actually such a fascinating topic to discuss. Because on one side, yes, she should be allowed to have children with the partner of her chosing. But on the other side, the way she handles the situation, she manages to upset almost every cultural norm surrounding this issue, further alienating potential allies.

According to the social and cultural norms of their world, Rhaenyra and her sons are being valued as lesser for the circumstances of their birth. This a result of westerosi male primogeniture, which has to police woman sexuality in order to ensure that wealth and power get passed through the male family line.

Bastards born from the affairs of male lords are tolerated because they do not endanger the system of power, while male bastards especially are still marginalised (as seen with Jon) the father isn‘t subjected to any form of social scorn.

On the flip side, a noblewoman fathering a bastard is a direct threat to the system of male primogeniture. A woman will always know her biological children by the simple fact that she gave birth to them.

Men, however, don’t have this certainty. To ensure that their heirs are their own biological offspring they need complete insurence that their wives are soley sexually active with them, hence the policing of female sexuality and the obsession with female virginity.

This tactic is obviously not foolproof. A clever wife might still manage to have a secret affair and pass off another man‘s child as her husband's. This anxiety and continued incertainty is reflected in the social censure woman receive for acting as sexual beings and the severe social and legal punishment a wife who has been judged as unfaithful can face.

What makes Rhaenyra‘s position unique, however, is the fact that she is Viserys‘ heir.

So if the crown is to pass down from Viserys to Rheanyra and through her to her own heirs, why does Jace‘s legitamacy even factor into all this? Some people in the fandom make that argument: If Rheanyra inherits in her own right, why does it matter who fathers her children?

The problem with this is that even the Lords can‘t declare their bastard heir without expressed permission from the king. So, firstly Rhaenyra would need to publicly aknowledge her sons as ilegitamte for Viserys to legitamise them.

Secondly, even if inheritance in the male linegage is important, marriages in Westeros are still utilised to forge political and economical ties. Any Lord, who wants to make their bastard heir instead of the children born by his legal wife, will at best destroy any goodwill given by her family or at worst start a generations long feud.

Rhaenyra‘s position isn't as simple as a mere reversal of the genders. She can't just take the role of the Lord, she is still a woman and society will continue to treat her as such. Laenor is still bringing his own inheritance of Driftmark to ther union, separate from any claims Rhaenyra holds.

While she is lucky enough not to lose the Velaryons as her allies, it does lead to tensions surrounding the succession of Driftmark.

Another argument then is, if Laenor and Corlys aknowledge Jace, Luce and Joffery as Velaryon their blood shouldn‘t matter.

However, that is also not how westerosi society works. Because to them, blood does matter. Laenor and Corlys can claim them as Velaryon as much as they want. But as Varys puts it: „Power resides where men believe it to reside“, and as long as the westerosi people believe that blood lines are vital to the right to rule, the boys‘ right to Driftmark will continue to be questioned. Family names and blood lines are super important (and not just socially, considering how many magic blood lines exist in this world).

And to me it seems pretty clear that Corlys is aware of this fact as well, because he never publicly anounces that their blood doesn‘t matter, in fact he claims them to be Velaryon as Laenor‘s sons.

And this is ultimately the issue at heart of all the vitrol thrown at Rhaenyra. The reason she faces so much push back isn’t just because she had bastards but specifcally because she tries to pass them off as legitemate. With this she triggers the deeply ingrained social anxiety about women duping their husband and disrupting the blood line with their own kuckucks child.

It doesn‘t truely matter that her position is slightly different, because for one Westeros is deeply misogynistic. Even as a female heir she is still subject to the misogynistic standards put on women, because no matter her personal circumstances, their society is still built to cater to male power.

But even more damming is the fact that she ends up proving all these fears true, because she does take Driftmark away from a true Velaryon heir and gives it to Luce.

I think it is really fascinating (in a very concerning way), how some fans are so ready to take these societal rules as hard facts. Instead of thinking how they might reflect on inherently flawed systems of power.

As viewers we should be capable to recognize that these cultural norms are wrong. Jace, Luce and Joffery might be bastards but this doesn't devalue them as human beings. Nor does it impact their capabilites as future rulers. Nor does Rhaenyra‘s gender impact her‘s. There is nothing that make a trueborn man more worthy of ruling than a bastard or a woman.

But important to remember is also that Rhaenyra isn‘t going to make a better ruler soley on the virtue of being the firstborn or chosen by Viserys. Nor are her sons going to make better heirs because they are her children.

#hotd #house of the dragon #rhaenyra targaryen #Rhaenyra isn‘t necessarily malicious in her attempt to get driftmark #Luce inheriting helps her bolster his and Jaces claim to legitamcy #In turn further protecting Rhaenyra from any potential repercussion of her affair #her bit for driftmark is mostly self preservation #That doesn‘t change that she is still stealing it from the true bloodline #Which i actually don‘t particulary mind by it self #one feudal lord stealing land from another feudal lord isn‘t really going to change much #However she is stealing it from Baela to give to Luce #Which doesn‘t really help with her whole women can rule to schtick the show decided to give her #It ultimately proves her a hypocrite who will include women as seen on the black council #But won‘t stick her neck out for them when it indangers her own position #That is actually sth i really like about her #The way her shortsightedness gets her repeatedly into trouble #And she has to step over others to get out again #It makes her believable as a character

[elia-nymmeros]

Cersei and her vision of ruling

I waited, and so can he. I waited half my life. She had played the dutiful daughter, the blushing bride, the pliant wife. She had suffered Robert's drunken groping, Jaime's jealousy, Renly's mockery, Varys with his titters, Stannis endlessly grinding his teeth. She had contended with Jon Arryn, Ned Stark, and her vile, treacherous, murderous dwarf brother, all the while promising herself that one day it would be her turn. If Margaery Tyrell thinks to cheat me of my hour in the sun, she had bloody well think again.

I love thinking about Cersei and her inefficient and ultimately doomed attempt at ruling because, beyond her faults and terrible traits as a person, she simply does not offer any valuable incentive towards anyone who wishes to follow her, as opposite to other contestants (something that I think 100% comes from Tywin), and any attempt at ruling would've failed sooner or later.

Edit: added some quotes to show some examples and tweak some stuff!

From AGoT all the way through her PoVs in AFfC, one of Cersei's main characteristics both in her personal approach to other people and in the way she tackles ruling is that she believes she's entitled to power and she's entitled to be treated as superior both as a Lannister and as the queen regent of Westeros. She routinely dismiss and berates people with lesser social power and status, she despises people who try to 'take liberties' and who don't treat her as an untouchable regent, and she's willing to hurt, torture and kill anyone who she considers a threat to her claim to rule. I personally think it's understandable that she's paranoid about traitors and people who have double intentions about her and Tommen —especially considering that in AFfC she literally just saw her son die in her arms by poison— but her problem is that she's a bad judge of character, she's been flawed in how she interprets other people's actions since AGoT, and she's incapable of adequately judging who is on her side and who is a bad option for an ally (see for example her thinking that Kevan was a traitor when he made good criticism about her as a ruler).

"The next Hand will know his place, she promised herself. It would have to be Ser Kevan. Her uncle was tireless, prudent, unfailingly obedient. She could rely on him, as her father had. The hand does not argue with the head. She had a realm to rule, but she would need new men to help her rule it. Pycelle was a doddering lickspittle, Jaime had lost his courage with his sword hand, and Mace Tyrell and his cronies Redwyne and Rowan could not be trusted. For all she knew they might have had a part in this. Lord Tyrell had to know that he would never rule the Seven Kingdoms so long as Tywin Lannister lived." AFfC, Cersei I

For me, a very hard truth about Cersei is that she absolutely suffered physical and sexual abuse from Robert, and she did not deserve neither this nor her perpetual objectification by pretty much every men in her life, but this simply does not make her entitled or eligible as a ruler by default. By Westerosi laws —which are undoubtedly misogynistic and unfair to women no matter their ability to rule— her claim as a Queen regent comes by her marriage to Robert and her sons (which are supposed to be Robert's blood). Since she decided to go all girlboss about it and put the two sons who clearly did not have Robert's blood on the throne, she actively harmed their claim and her own, and she literally created a succession crisis by having the bad luck of marrying the one family with strong genes and zero chance of having blondes in their family tree.

But let's say, alright, put the clearly Lannister boys on the throne anyways, kingship is a social construction and the Baratheons didn't really have any more intrinsic claim to Westeros than the Targaryens other than military might, fuck it; the obvious question is, what am I offering my subjects so that their support is rewarded and their loyalty is secured? This is something that, in some way or another, is answered by the other pretenders in the War of the Five Kings, even if it's in a limited capacity and with very dubious intentions: Robb offers a rule from, by and to the Northern people that takes into account their wishes and reclaims, and also offers the people of the Riverlands justice and protection; Balon offers the Ironborn a new, revitalized rule over the islands and surrounding land with the Old Way which he claimed would improve the life of his people; Renly and his alliance with the Tyrells came with the prosperous wealth of the Reach and offers of food, pardons and a generous rule by a charismatic ruler mimicking Robert's long peaceful reign. Stannis, by contrast, is the one who pushes his claim solely by his rights in Targaryen dynastic succession (if the king dies with no legitimate children, the crown should go to the next eldest brother), and we see over and over throughout the saga that this isn't enough to secure his claim, that a ruler should also fulfill their rights as a protector if they wish to be followed, that he was demanding loyalty and obedience without offering something in return and that this won't give you support no matter how legal is your claim.

"If not for my Hand, I might not have come at all. Lord Seaworth is a man of humble birth, but he reminded me of my duty, when all I could think of was my rights. I had the cart before the horse, Davos said. I was trying to win the throne to save the kingdom, when I should have been trying to save the kingdom to win the throne." ASoS, Jon XI

Compared to all this, Cersei (and Joffrey by extension, because she encourages in him what she believes are good traits for a king) simply did not have anything to offer precisely because they live under the illusion —once again coming from Tywin— that they have the intrinsic right to power and ruling simply because they're Lannisters and they should be obeyed because of this. This would be a normal thing to believe in a normal, regular dynasty —for example, I doubt Aegon IV or Viserys I or Maekar I were particularly thinking about what they could offer to their subjects, they simply gained power because they were part of a royal lineage where a Targaryen man inheriting the throne was expected— but Joffrey's claim came from a break of this succession, and Robert justified his reign both by being the descendant of a Targaryen and also because he offered Westeros peace, protection, justice and mercy if you'd been in the wrong side of the war.

""It is, Your Grace," Lady Merryweather agreed. "The High Septon should have come to you. And these wretched sparrows . . ." "He feeds them, coddles them, blesses them. Yet will not bless the king." The blessing was an empty ritual, she knew, but rituals and ceremonies had power in the eyes of the ignorant. Aegon the Conqueror himself had dated the start of his realm from the day the High Septon anointed him in Oldtown. "This wretched priest will obey, or learn how weak and human he still is."" AFfC, Cersei VI

A lot can be said about Robert's rule and what he did right and wrong, but I think one can admit that he was a man capable of pardoning his enemies' lives unconditionally (think Barristan, Balon, Jaime), he put down disagreements and fights without sending someone to be tortured to death, and traditional customs in Westeros were respected —Aerys' rule was contested precisely because he broke the right of nobles to have a trial. Cersei doesn't simply ignore all this, being particularly vicious, cruel and spiteful to her enemies/rivals even after she supposedly made peace with them, but nothing about her rule is about anything except her and her wishes: if there's a scarcity of food, then she hoards everything to herself; if there's danger to the city, she hides herself and withdraws her resources and fuck the rest of the population, noble or not; if someone comes from the rival side wanting to join their cause, then they're suspected traitors who sooner or later will be put to death; if someone says a criticism about her actions, whether genuine or not, then that person is a traitor who sooner or later will be put to death; everyone is her enemy and everyone wants her power for themselves and nobody can ever be trusted because nobody is as smart, capable, worthy and deserving of power as Cersei is.

"It took the rest of the flagon before the queen was finally able to coax the whole sad tale out of Lady Falyse. Once she had, she did not know whether to laugh or rage. "Single combat," she repeated. Is there no one in the Seven Kingdoms that I can rely upon? Am I the only one in Westeros with a pinch of wits? (...)" AFfC, Cersei VII

"Taena had drifted back to sleep by the time the queen returned to the bedchamber, her head spinning. Too much wine and too little sleep, she told herself. It was not every night that she was awakened twice with such desperate tidings. At least I could awaken. Robert would have been too drunk to rise, let alone rule. It would have fallen to Jon Arryn to deal with all of this. It pleased her to think that she made a better king than Robert." AFfC, Cersei VII

Since she doesn't care about feeding her subjects, protecting them from harm, enacting fair and genuine justice to those who need it, improving the physical infrastructure of the realm, honoring debts to foreign entities and previous agreements to other nobles, or at least diminishing the economic problems left by Robert's rule, then she (and once again, Joffrey and Tommen by extension) literally has nothing to offer anyone who wishes to follow her. She doesn't make even the attempt to pretend she cares about any of this by the time we get to AFfC, like Renly once did in ACoK, precisely because she has the mistaken and very dangerous belief that she's owed obedience and deference and the right to rule over an entire continent, and that people should somehow be grateful to obey her no matter how shitty and depraved and harmful she is to them and their families.

""The realm is at war. His Grace has need of every man." Cersei did not intend to squander Tommen's strength playing wet nurse to sparrows, or guarding the wrinkled cunts of a thousand sour septas. Half of them are probably praying for a good raping. "Your sparrows have clubs and axes. Let them defend themselves."" AFfC, Cersei VI

"When the door closed behind them Cersei poured herself another cup of wine. "I am surrounded by enemies and imbeciles," she said. She could not even trust to her own blood and kin, nor Jaime, who had once been her other half. He was meant to be my sword and shield, my strong right arm. Why does he insist on vexing me?" AFfC, Cersei VII

All of this is remarkable precisely when put in contrast with Dany, because both of their ambitions to the throne come from their belief that they're entitled to the throne above any other consideration, and both of them had little experience ruling before their ascent to power and are continuously doubted/criticized because of their gender, but what sets Dany apart is her willingness to learn from others and take care of the people who follow her. Despite all the troubles that ADwD have brought her, Dany has always been characterized by someone who attempts to protect others and is prepared to hear her subject's opinions and make actual efforts to improve their lives; many of us root for her precisely because she makes a genuine effort into being a good and fair ruler to her subjects even when she fails, even when she makes wrong choices, even when she falls short of her goal. One of the main problems in her journey has been the question of how can she become a legitimate ruler in the eyes of the Westerosi people, and she rightfully understood that she needed to offer something in exchange for loyalty, just like Stannis did.

""There's much I don't understand," Davos admitted. "I have never pretended elsewise. I know the seas and rivers, the shapes of the coasts, where the rocks and shoals lie. I know hidden coves where a boat can land unseen. And I know that a king protects his people, or he is no king at all."" ASoS, Davos VI

"Why do the gods make kings and queens, if not to protect the ones who can't protect themselves?" ASoS, Daenerys III

I believe that the fact that Cersei doesn't ever comes close to this realization doesn't just steam from her natural self-centredness, propensity to cruelty and repeated trauma in the hands of the men in her life, but precisely by the vision Tywin had about himself and house Lannister. At the end of the day, Cersei mimics not only what Tywin himself believes about their house (that they're superior, wealthier, worthier and morally above everyone else, even other noble houses), but also how Tywin behaves as a political actor (making deals in bad faith and not fulfilling them, mistreating children, women and disabled peoople, using extreme violence as a form of correction and coercion, following no moral guidance or innate beliefs other than what benefits them in the short term, etc.). They're not the only ones who exhibits this behavior (Bronn, for example, is just as self-serving and violent as them), but House Lannister, and Tywin, Cersei and Joffrey in particular, are definitely some of the most powerful and influential people in Westeros thanks to their military might and economic power, which amplifies the consequences of their selfishness to... quite scary levels.

#asoiaf #a song of ice and fire #cersei lannister #valyrianscrolls #ugh sorry didnt mean to post this! i wanted to add some things quotes and other sfuff #but whatever #cw mention of rape #i wanted to talk more about tywin's fascist ideologies which are seen in his children but this is too long already #and cersei is old enough to see other points of view like jaime