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gerrydelano · 4 years

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Hey!! I love your new Archivist!Gerry fic! The entire thing is watering my crops, clearing my skin and making the sun shine! I just gotta ask, because I was a little confused, isn’t Dekker canonically Christian? I’m not trying to be mean or rude or anything, I’m genuinely worried I might have misinterpreted the original text and now I’m a bit worried? Also, the Gerry & Jon & Tim interactions? I love them!

hey, thank you so much!!!! i appreciate the kind words and i’m glad you’re enjoying it so far! and don’t worry, it’s not at ALL rude to ask, i encouraged it in the end notes because i knew that some people might be confused!

long story short: nope, he’s not canonically christian! but don’t be too worried, it’s VERY easy to think he is.

i was a little “worried” about doing this, too, because i know it’s the most widely accepted interpretation and that the interpretation is completely understandable.

and i do know that plenty of people with christianity trauma like this interp because he’s a genuinely good person of faith who is easy to latch onto as, like. proof that it can be good, or something? which i totally get & me personally writing him as jewish isn’t intended to detract from or disrespect that.

by operating under this HC, i’m not trying to insult anyone who didn’t consider it before! i don’t really Have to justify it or anything, either, but i do feel like just putting it out there in case anyone else asks later. all in one place!

i’ve also spoken with numerous jewish people about this (including people who came up to say “wow that makes WAY more sense?” when they saw i’d done it) and frankly, those are the opinions i value most in this context. though i’ve seen black liberation theologist dekker, too, just once, and i think THAT is ALSO amazing!!!! if i knew a damn thing about it, i’d consider that route also!

but in the end, all these interpretations are headcanons. and anything to do with dekker is nowhere near as widespread as, say, jon being a POC, which by this point is so deeply ingrained in the fandom that it’s been made legitimately possible for there to be erasure in certain depictions of him.

though that comparison does bring up a seriously important point.

most people’s base concepts/depictions of christianity seem to be WHITE christianity, and what dekker CANONLY IS is a BLACK MAN. if you’re going to make him christian, you DO need to keep in mind that he’s not going to practice christianity the same way as a white person! just remember that.

regardless, jewish dekker is just as viable a HC. xtian dekker (esp the way some people portray it) doesn’t seem to consider his actual character very much when people kind of just hear someone mention g-d once and apply the default assumption to them. it feels very surface-level?

i never genuinely got a christian vibe from his actions and his values and his way of conducting his life? i just went along with it at first because i also thought it was a thing based on fandom osmosis.

until someone brought up this interpretation to me and it has lived in my head rent free ever since! that person had looked into this well before i did, and then i looked into it myself to double check, and Yeah, nowhere does dekker actually mention, like... jesus or being christian or the christian ideals of like redemption or anything, etc.

people make the (very easy!) conjecture because he used “exorcist of sorts” as a descriptor, which has obvious implications, yeah. he was being described by someone else when he was compared to having the look of a jehovah’s witness at first, which doesn’t mean anything, either, because that literally was just about the fact that he showed up on this guy’s doorstep in a white button down and a necktie. and also FUCK those guys.

but the key to his self-descriptor is “of sorts.”

and also the fact that he literally only said it to get into this dude's house so he could dispatch his fake cousin.

so, like, you Can take that with a grain of salt.

dekker’s been doing this a LONG time. he knows how to get through someone’s door without a fuss or a struggle by now. it’s not at all hard to believe that he’d play into an easily acceptable image in order to get in and out of somewhere and do what he needs to do. it’s smart! he’s so adaptable and pragmatic.

“generally if you’re in the middle of england and you say “hi i’m a christian” they’ll just say “fantastic, me too” and you’re in.” — thanks ren

doesn’t mean he’s actually an exorcist! introducing himself as one like that is more or less him saying that he ISN’T, but it’ll be easier if you believe he is.

he’s not that, but it’s close enough, because NO known faith encapsulates what he REALLY is, which is “about to trap the eldritch creature wearing your cousin’s face by binding it to this sick table i had carted in for the occasion.”

EDIT: it was pointed out to me that there IS exorcism-adjacent stuff in jewish folklore, so really! it isn’t actually a point AGAINST jewish dekker! read the notes in this one, they’re very good.

but THIS POST SPEAKS TO ME VERY LOUDLY. this is an excellent examination i saw ages ago that really deconstructs the way that dekker conducts himself regarding his faith in comparison to other Actual Exorcists in media, and also in comparison to how father burroughs conducts himself in TMA itself!

EDIT: parker @cuttlefishkitch said something cool after reading this post for the first time!

“something that strikes me about father boughrous at least, and the portrayal of christianity in tma (and something i've noticed about christianity in general) is that in a lot of ways it inspires fear, it focuses a lot on punishment and judgement and the idea that if you do things wrong you should be afraid like the whole concept of hell exists to scare people away from sinning, so like, imo jewish dekker makes way more sense to me in that regard than christian dekker”

dekker is an action-oriented person who uses exclusively practical means to overcome hardship and combat active threats to not only his own person but people that he goes out of his way to save, which is an Extremely jewish way of living. he’s so resilient and adaptable and people-focused. he SCREAMS tikkun olam.

which reminds me g-d okay. when i was watching a rosh hashanah service, this bit stuck out to me as a Vibe for another character i also HC as jewish but, like, definitely dekker, too:

Alone I cannot reach the far shore without drowning.

Somehow I don't go under. The person to my right holds me up. Something I cannot see holds him up.

Blessed is the Source of Help so often unexpected. I step forward. The sea is vast.

people helping people! PEOPLE being what keep people alive! not a nebulous reliance on the idea that a great force will just materialize and save you just because you ask it to or think it should. ultimately having faith in people and a duty to people as a culmination of whatever your beliefs in a higher power may guide you towards is something that feels Very Dekker to me.

dekker practices whatever faith he has for the sole purpose of comforting himself and keeping his heart in the place that he wants it to be. it isn’t the TOOL that he uses to fight, it just keeps him stable, keeps him human.

but before anyone just looks at my obvious proclivity for writing characters as jewish (jon and georgie predominantly), and assume i’m just doing that thing i said not to do in this post about thoughtless attempts at diversifying HCs in order to make a character feel more “valid” or so you can feel less guilty for liking them, i wanna point out that i actually lose my shit in heartbreak about father burroughs on a regular.

that man tried his hardest, too! he was a good person who genuinely wanted to help and he got MASSIVELY fucked over and he did NOT deserve it. by pointing out that dekker’s motivations and methods read as being more jewish to me doesn’t mean i’m being Mean and saying Christians Can’t Be Good People (which... if you really want to read me that way then i implore you to examine some other things jdhkjfhj), there are plenty of canon christian characters out there that live in my heart.

part of what i’m saying here is that that sentence could also just have ended with “there are plenty of canon christian characters.”

i think it’s just important to remember that a character of nondescript faith doesn’t have to default to "christian!”

to people who have their own reasons to interpret him as such, go for it; i’m sure there’s some reclamation going on there and i’m not telling you that, like, you Can’t. but he’s not CANONLY anything.

he does mention hell once, but it’s while talking to gertrude, who he knows has no stake in his beliefs, and “hell” is oftentimes just... an expression and a concept that everyone understands even if they don’t genuinely believe in its existence. and all he even says at the end is:

“I know you’ve never had much patience for my faith, but perhaps it will provide you some small peace knowing I face my death gladly, knowing I have done my duty before G-d.”

(and no just because it isn’t censored in the transcript doesn’t count as a reason he Can’t Possibly Be Jewish or anything. not every jewish person censors it and also these transcripts were written up by fans anyway.)

this is fairly open-ended! you can read it as anything. i just prefer to read it as tikkun olam. as tzedek, tzedek tirdof.

tikkun olam being “a concept in judaism defined namely by acts of kindness performed to repair the world.”

and tzedek, tzedek tirdof being “justice, justice you shall pursue.”

sorry for taking this opportunity to just ramble about WHY i prefer to read him this way, i just don’t know when else i’d get the chance. so, to just answer your actual question again, nope, not canonically christian!

and don’t beat yourself up about not realizing that! i’ve been talking a lot about fanon interpetations kind of living rent free in our brains despite possible contradictions with canon that we have honestly forgotten. dekker’s a pretty small character and even his faith doesn’t come up EVERY time he’s mentioned, it’s VERY easy to just not remember every single tiny detail and it’s even Easier to just not think deeply on it in the first place.

there’s just nothing that says he COULDN’T be jewish, especially given that the major themes of his story, principles, values, priorities, and the way that he conducted himself actually align Super Well with that narrative in mind!

and in terms of PBR, it just provides a way nicer opportunity for the dynamic he’s going to have with jon later on! which i’m SO excited to write about. if you want to talk about reclamation and remaining human. :-)

EDIT 12/10/2020: so i remembered that someone else sent me an anon saying they thought he had to be xtian because he mentioned a reward after death, and someone actually found his canon viewpoint in that in the transcripts! these are from MAG 113:

Or to find your eyes closed and force them open to sunlight and morning, only realising that sleep has happened in retrospect. I wonder if… death is the same way? No clear dividing line, just… gone, only to realise after it’s happened, except for the fact that there isn’t an after. Is that a comforting thought or a terrifying one? Depends on who you are, I suppose.

[...]

What is the line between a near-death experience and a dream? Perhaps you do leave yourself, brush against the afterlife and return, but… I don’t believe it. I believe they are both simply the firings of a brain we no longer have control over.

so he canonically doesn’t believe in a heaven or hell, just An End. which gives us even MORE leeway to say Jewish Dekker Real. wahoo! (gonna paste this edit into that ask, too, just to have it in both places.)

#adelard dekker #adelard #ronologues #the meshuggeneh archives #pbr tag #reviews #anon #asks

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gerrydelano · 4 years

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hey! actually, we’re gonna try it this way instead.

TL;DR - jewish gerry is a lovely concept and i 100% see where you’re coming from, but it definitely requires a particular circumstance!

[ID under the cut]

ASK: hi! sorry i know you get a lot of asks so i def won't take it personally if u don't answer, i'm just curious cuz i'm kinda new to ur blog, if u have any thoughts on jewish gerry? i mean obv it wouldn't be like. great to hc mary as jewish but maybe eric and it's smth gerry gets in touch with later on in his life? im reading tsp n i got to the bit where gerry makes a goal of finding his dads family so it made me wonder. i love all ur writing and ur a joy to follow, i hope u have a nice day! thx(:

sorry, the first attempt at this got a ghost note and that upsets the me :-) besides, it’s kind of better to post it as an image. context is key!

(and also you are so sweet! thank you so much for the kind words at the end of this, i appreciate that very much! and i’m glad you’re enjoying TSP<3 there’s all sorts of judaism in store for you in the later chapters especially, so i really hope you enjoy the soft epilogue, too!)

alright, time for a 2.5k+ word ramble about why gerry is NOT jewish, but why there’s still a lot of healing potential in him interacting with judaism through others. Yeah!

so, i saw this like 20 hours ago and made a quick response to let you know i saw it, which i’ll catalog here:

INITIAL RESPONSE: gerry anon! i will answer that, i’m just in a call with some pals right now watching natsume and my ADHD is all over the place so it’ll be a bit BUT i do have thoughts. the short answer is i’d love that in concept but i don’t actually think it’d hold up realistically given all his Stuff jbhknjlm which hurts but :-( yeah

#agreed on mary bigtime and even w eric like #its rough BECAUSE of her because of what he went thru at her hands/what her backstory includes so i find it #uncomfortable to imagine her doing that to a jewish man jghbknlm #i'll talk more later yea!

which you definitely saw because you sent a follow-up:

SECOND ASK: (jewish gerry anon) ah yeah i can see how that whole situation w eric would be uncool, my bad. i'm still curious to hear your thoughts and (probably in an au) if you think it would make sense for him to convert? i just relistened to mag111 and i'm not sure if it'd work in a totally canon compliant story. i dunno, i'm just curious about your thoughts on the matter and if those thoughts are that it doesn't fit, i get it! thanks for ur time :3

OKAY so now we got that squared away, i’ll reply properly!

first off, you are definitely not bothering me or anything and these stand-alone questions are always welcome, it just might take a bit for me to answer depending on what it is. when i get overwhelmed by asks it’s usually by people sending in guesses for a game or hopping onto a running joke and they Increase In Numbers very quickly and my brain has trouble keeping up HAHA. but these are fine, thank you for your patience! (and also welcome aboard!)

like i said, i definitely find it. unpleasant, to say the least, to headcanon mary as jewish because of obvious reasons that i don’t need to explain here to you or anything, but for anybody else: hi she’s extremely violent, abusive, greedy, focused on creating some kind of fucked up evil-power-hoarding dynasty with her son who she is forcibly making tag along in that against his will, there’s? no good way to spin looking at her and going “oh i think she is jewish :-)”

there’s also the weird antisemitic elements to the story she tells in her statement, which i don’t even want to talk about ngl because it does make me feel ill. so, next!

as for ERIC - it’s also because of her that i don’t feel comfortable headcanoning him as jewish, either. like. yes it’d be nicer because he’s, like, the good guy in the situation and he loved his son and he was very good at kvetching but aside from being the good guy he’s also the victim. like. mary - who has all that baggage in her backstory - chose him to ensnare, manipulate, and eventually violently murder and then keep his SOUL tethered to that book and leave him unable to rest, or see his son, or have ANY agency of any kind whatsoever, and discarded him and passed him around like an item and not a person, and.

it’s just really mega uncomfortable to imagine her doing that to a jewish man, it just feels really wrong and painful.

and obviously you, the asker, did NOT intend to implicate that side of the headcanon because you want jewish gerry, because jewish gerry sounds like a really positive and beautiful thing - which i agree with in concept! like, again, most people don’t actually think about this kind of stuff, i just happen to be really nitpicky.

but, for me, it stops “in concept.” in practice, i can’t actually see gerry being interested in converting to any organized religion of any kind.

TL;DR - chaboy’s too traumatized for that.

angel, also jewish, said this really nicely just now: “i think religion in any actively religious form—for lack of a better word—would be incredibly traumatizing. When gerry thinks church he thinks lightless flame”

couldn’t agree more on that. like. it’s about his associations with things, and with what he’s been taught, what he’s been told could never be his, what he’s been told is Incorrect, what he’s seen fail, what he’s seen triumph when it shouldn’t, he’s just? got so much going on that i cannot see him undoing, he’s Extremely conditioned and traumatized by not only the events he’s had to endure but also the worldview that was imposed on him.

and no that doesn’t mean he’s gross about different religions or that he thinks ordinary people are wrong for being invested in faith, i just think it means he can’t quite find a way to make himself fit into that kind of atmosphere and belief system. i think he’d struggle too much with it to find it comfortable, and for the most part would just? not think about it much, if he can help it.

conversion is supposed to be seriously healing and feel correct even with the struggles and hurdles involved in getting from point A to point oy vey, and with gerry in particular, it would feel really disingenuous.

i’m the first person who will look at a character and go “[points] jewish.” and i’m ESPECIALLY attached to conversion stories, and like, i usually JUMP at that opportunity and wanna work it into things. and so the fact that i can’t really see that for gerry, my ultimate favorite and dearest comfort character, means something probably? i dunno, i just don’t see it sticking for him, it doesn’t seem like something he would adhere himself to on a personal level, i don’t think faith really works for him.

and i think as much as he deserves to feel at home in a community, that he would ever really feel comfortable trying to insert himself into one. that ship has sort of sailed for him, as much as that BREAKS my heart, but even then! he’s also just fundamentally very introverted and would be more comfortable with, like. a few people around who he has notable similarities AND differences to, as opposed to trying to feel comfortable in a bigger group that feels ultimately very removed from his realm of understanding and major comfort zones.

and THAT is why i give him a lot of interaction with jewish characters!

i haven’t written it yet but in TSP, he’s definitely got a genuine admiration and appreciation and respect for miriam, jon, and his american roommate’s jewishness —

BEEP. we interrupt this program to bring you an obligatory plug for bailey school kids.

seriously, read this fic. it’s BEAUTIFUL it made me CRY and it involves gerry interacting with judaism! and him TALKING about his outlook on faith! and why rejecting it doesn’t have to be this big painful thing! and why pursuing it just isn’t something he’s compatible with! and why that’s COMPLETELY okay, and they just move on with their hanukkah celebration. he lights the candles anyway!

we now return to your regularly scheduled rambling. BEEP.

— and i just really love the idea of him getting involved on the outskirts and in small doses, with specific people who kind of bring him into a particular experience, as opposed to fully immersing himself into the whole of it.

and that’s okay! that’s enough, sometimes. it can bring him comfort by association. it can be rooted more in the people he loves than in trying to take it so many steps further — in the end, i think that’s more what speaks to him? that’s more what he needs on an individual level. just a few people he trusts, who understand him enough that he feels safe, and who love him enough to invite him into things they care about every now and then.

that’d be enough for him, i think. it’s already extremely moving on its own and makes my heart Feel A Way. i don’t need to take it a step further with him because that experience in and of itself is already so much, it’s really multifaceted and there’s a lot to play with there? that would explore his own belief system, the things he rejected from his mother, the things he can’t undo.

i don’t even think he struggles with faith, is the thing. i think he’s pretty calm about it, not really thinking too much about wanting a change there. he knows what’s out there, has seen it, never actually worshipped a shred of it, never devoted himself to a cause beyond humanitarian aid on an individual level.

he’s got a lot else on his mind, and he’s? weirdly at peace with it, it’s not something that actually troubles him. the day-to-day troubles him, the situation with his mother troubles him, the impending end of the world troubles him, but i don’t think he’s super concerned with wanting to be a part of an organized faith or community.

even reconnecting with eric’s family doesn’t necessarily mean reconnecting with a belief system - those are two very different things, and i think gerry’s way more concerned with knowing individual people than all that beyond it. he needs baby steps, is what i think i’ve been trying to say. baby steps are enough for him, and already hard enough.

because when it comes to imagining him trying to get involved with a larger community, i don’t think he would ever really feel like he belonged there? he would probably feel like an outsider and just too tainted by a different reality to be ABLE to rewire his brain. and those are things i usually love to explore in conversion storylines because i felt the same way, i sometimes still feel too GUILTY to pursue it or like i’m not allowed or that i’ll never be able to really get there. it’s good to explore the unlearning of imposter syndrome and past trauma and all of those things, absolutely, and with many other characters it’d be totally possible.

but it still doesn’t feel right. it’s not an environment he wants to be in, he just wouldn’t be comfortable in a larger community like that, he’d feel like he sticks out too much and it would EAT at him, i feel like he would feel very scrutinized and out of place. (beholding instincts notwithstanding.)

he’s not really looking for a g-d. it’s not something he’d be able to reconcile with his understanding of the world. maybe if he met someone like adelard dekker and saw what it looks like when someone balances both things, he’d at least understand a little more about the fact that it can be done, i just. as hard as i try, i can’t actually make it click. it’s just not something he’s invested in trying to make work, because you have to really want it in order to make that happen.

so, when it comes to an AU - i don’t think i’d ever write a full on AU where he embraces judaism, but i DO have plans for a few things where he finds his dad’s sister! in multiple universes, actually. including TSP, but we’ll get there.

i’m not going to spoil in full, partly because i haven’t planned ALL of it out, but i do think it’d be really nice for him to have exposure to jewish people, people who interact with their faith in a way he’s never really seen before because all he knows is his mother and whatever HER belief system could be called, etc.

so what if eric’s sister had converted when she got married! a lot of people do that for their spouse, it’s a really lovely thing and i could absolutely see that for her. and if i do the AU where she manages to swoop in and intervene when he’s younger? he’d have exposure to how they run their household, traditions, food, maybe go to temple with them, depending on how it goes.

and so even if he never crosses the threshold of conversion himself, he’d absolutely have a place in his heart for it and be interested and find it lovely!

he might even think about it! he might ask himself if he could or if he wants to, and he’d end up wondering if he just wants to for the sake of spiting the world he grew up in. and yeah a lot of jewishness is operating on spite but GJVHBKN gerry would be in fragile enough of a place (and resigned enough) to not really see that as enough of a motivator for it.

it wouldn’t feel as genuine as it should. and he would recognize that, and be like “alright, this isn’t for me. that’s okay.”

angel just said another nice thing i love: “love gerry being able to acknowledge that a higher power might not be wholly malevolent even if he can't believe in that himself”

and just. YEAH! that!

at this point now i’m just repeating myself so i’ll stop but!!!! i wanted to make it clear that it’s Super unusual for me to say, “no, i don’t think this character would pursue/benefit from conversion” because usually i am so attached to that narrative, especially for characters like gerry who have been deprived of a forgiving, communicative environment for so long/who don’t get anything good for themselves in their canon.

for him, i just think there are better ways to achieve that comfort while staying true to what he might be more likely to think about the situation, and still stay on the recoverycore track with him even if it doesn’t involve going the full mile into this particular thing. sometimes we tend to be a little black and white, all or nothing with headcanons but there’s definitely wiggle room and this is one of those times that the grey area feels most rewarding to think about. nuance!

in the end, i think he’s most comfortable finding his place with individual people as opposed to bigger communities/organized belief systems. he’s a simple guy. even in a No Fears AU, i can see that still being his comfort zone overall, but he might at least explore it a little more in that kind of setting where he has less weighing on his mind and maybe just. the more typical Shame feelings of being raised by a mother like mary. that’s hard enough to unlearn as it is, but maybe in the right circumstances, he could! just definitely not canon compliant, nope.

thank you for asking this! i had fun extrapolating, i’ve been thinking about this since the first time i got an ask about it. it’d definitely have to be a No Fears AU for this to be possible, i think, and that’s not something i’ve tackled yet but who knows... maybe one day! 😎

#lets try this again because hOOO NELLY!!!!!!!!#asks #anon #gerry #ronologues #r.txt #the meshuggeneh archives #added ID under the cut!

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gerrydelano · 4 years

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jon and martin in synagogue together. when the rabbi recites the mourner’s kaddish and gestures for names, martin quietly offers up sasha’s.

it takes a moment for jon to remember how to say tim’s name, but after martin reaches over to still one of his hands, he manages in a whisper.

#jonmartin #jonathan sims #martin blackwood #sasha james #tim stoker #the magnus archives #tma #r.txt #ron gets really sad at 6pm #top #The Meshuggeneh Archives

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gerrydelano · 4 years

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@phant0mwise: do you have any thoughts on jewish michael shelley? does that get weird because of the whole death/distortion thing?

oh, no, the death/distortion thing isn’t really why i don’t see him as feasibly jewish. it’s just his entire personality and all of his behavior that says “this is a repressed gay catholic.”

i don’t have strong opinions on michael, usually, but i brought that to my server and got a WEALTH of responses that have made it so now i have VERY strong opinions on michael. this was the most hilariously jewish conversation we’ve had in there in a long time i am rolling on the floor.

angel said, "michael has never questioned anything in his life. he doesnt have the range. his catholic guilt led him to the institute.” which was hysterical and made me lose my shit.

but more seriously, she also pointed out that, “honestly? all we know about michael’s beliefs is that he had unquestioned faith in higher ups and that’s not super jewish”

which, yeah. big agree there, on a serious level. there are definitely better characters to hc as jewish, as ryl says, who have The Outlook. The Panache. The Chutzpah. such as:

okay no i was going to screen cap this but i need to start doing IDs for small things, which means i’ll just write it out here. conversation between petty jewish people.

angel: jewish helen

ren: YESSSSSSSSSSSSSSSS

ryl: now That i support

kaylee: GOOD

ren: THERE IT IS THERE WE GO

me: well fuck this now i need to reply to the fduckkgin thing in a ppost

ryl: helen, martin, jon, georgie. all jewish and sexy

there it goes! like okay see great example. i started off thinking i had no opinion on this. but then one person said one thing and now i’m extremely passionate about this side of the argument and i will not be moved by any man nor monster nor michael.

angel also pointed out that “michael’s rigid catholic mind couldn’t handle the spiral. helen knows that all questions have at least 10 answers and she is sexy and right” and i’m losing my mind hgbkjnm.

so now i have to add helen to my initial answer to you. the real answer to anything having to do with michael is almost always guaranteed to just be, “but consider: helen.”

repressed gay catholics are cordially invited to weigh in on this one. especially if you stan michael. [looks pointedly at ezra @butchfaggetrie like this]

#not super long just under the cut bc im scremaingjhrbgfjn #r.txt #ronologues #michael #the meshuggeneh archives #server shenans

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gerrydelano · 4 years

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Between his talking about hell, his focus on a reward after death, and quoting the Serenity Prayer, it’s hard for me to see Dekker as anything other than Christian. Obviously Jews can refer to Christian concepts because of cultural osmosis (I’m Jewish myself and do it all the time) but man does the way he talk ring specifically Christian for me.

and that’s completely understandable! like i said in my post, i absolutely get it and i know why it’s the primary interpretation for him, and why i’m not Arguing when i explain my HC, or trying to say that jewish dekker is directly implied. it’s not! it’s just also not impossible. the HC was proposed to me by a jewish friend who thought about it just as thoroughly as you have, and i think that’s sort of the nice thing about it!

like, yeah okay, jonny most likely was going for christianity there, but there is still enough to counter that it provides a neat Discussion? of the ways it could still be different even with those references being made, etc. similar to how the main cast is written as Pretty White™ but we've got plenty of room to shake it up beyond that, i think. small ramble quick!

just under the cut so i can edit later/don’t stretch the dash KJFDNKJN.

i’m not trying to pick you apart with this btw i just tossed this q into my server and we talked about it in the #the-frog-debate channel, so i’m putting the thoughts everybody else had under here, too! seraf miiiight reblog with his thoughts at some point, still pending.

i don’t think he quoted the serenity prayer! he said “Still. G-d grant me clarity to act when I need it.” which, isn’t actually like. from that prayer or anything. angel brought that one up and tbh we kind of take that one as cultural osmosis like you said? likewise with the mention of hell, considering he’s talking to gertrude, and how it’s easier to make references that other people will be more likely to just have in their lexicon.

and honestly i don’t think the world they operated in makes much room for actual heaven and hell, either, and any references to those concepts made by anybody in this business are mostly going to be more just... expressions than anything. refer to that one post highlighting the contrast btwn him and father burroughs.

also his farewell to gertrude! that seemed to have like NOTHING to do with faith but rather something respectful that would mean something to her, as someone who he knows doesn’t put stock into it. he was talking to her through the world they DO share, the world governed by the powers, and was speaking to the things that hang over her that he wishes her free from. that was a beautiful thing for him to say, and i think it had like, zilch to do with anything else. not that you brought that up in your ask i’m just thinking about it constantly and have feelings.

seraf brought up a cool point, too: interfaith families exist! there are a lot of ways to reverse engineer, not to completely diminish canon material but strengthen it in interesting ways. maybe his dad was christian, who knows. anything’s possible.

seraf’s main points are “a) there are like. literally zero canon jews in tma b) when was the last time u saw a black jewish character in like, anything” which i gotta say Yeah Agree.

and re: reward after death, most of us also honestly interpret that as being more in reference to Rest than anything? what stuck out to me more was that he could “face his death gladly, knowing he had done his duty before g-d” which can still be read through a jewish lens, like. just being at peace with how he had lived his life.

i also think about what gertrude said she thinks happens after death when gerry asked her in mag 162, how she thinks that after death the fears can’t touch you. i really don’t think it’s outlandish to imagine she and adelard having those discussions! they very well could have, and he very well could be referencing that there. the reward could literally just be peace, y’know? the end he always knew was coming.

to quote seraf bc he’s at work also:

“also imo ive always viewed that part of his statement as very jewish too!! fucking you are not obligated to complete the work, but neither are you free to abandon it! does that not exactly summarize adelards like parting thoughts on the extinction and his life spent on pursuing it! gd!”

anything more from me is just repeating what i’ve already said but! again i completely get why you’d read him as christian it does come across that way very easily and was probably what jonny had in mind, but i like thinking outside the box on this stuff, esp because no matter what faith he practices, his relationship to it is going to be complicated and unconventional by default given the contrast of the work he does in Eldritch Fear World.

i enjoy talking about this without anyone really being Wrong because to me, i can see the merit in both. i just personally prefer to think of one over the other, because it makes me happy.

EDIT 12/10/2020: so actually, seraf found his canon viewpoint on the reward after death thing in the transcripts! these are from MAG 113:

[...]

so he canonically doesn’t believe in a heaven or hell, just An End. which gives us even MORE leeway to say Jewish Dekker Real. wahoo! (put this in my other longer ask about this, too, just to have it in both places.)

#asks #anon #the meshuggeneh archives #adelard

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